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Archive for Tuesday, June 2, 2009

Tiller’s funeral set for Saturday

June 2, 2009

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— The funeral service for slain abortion provider George Tiller has been scheduled for 10 a.m. Saturday at College Hill United Methodist Church in Wichita.

Tiller’s lawyers announced the schedule Tuesday at the request of his family.

The 67-year-old Tiller was shot to death Sunday morning in the foyer of Reformation Lutheran Church while serving as an usher.

Comments

porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

Directly quoting Roe v Wade demonstrating that Planned Parenthood v Casey is consistent with it is a "strawman argument"?

(laughter)

Listing abortion figures from the Centers for Disease Control (with reference) is a "strawman argument"?

(laughter)

Noting the polling data show the rest of the country isn't in step with you regarding abortion rights (again with reference) is a "strawman argument"?

(laughter)

Noting that Roe v Wade is still the law of the land after thirty six years is a "strawman argument"?

(laughter)

Noting that the changes to that law from Planned Parenthood v Casey are superficial is a "strawman argument"?

(laughter)

Noting that Phill Kline falsely prosecuted Dr. Tiller and was STILL unsuccessful is a "strawman argument".

(laughter)

Demonstrating that Shockchalk hasn't worked in a NICU because he couldn't name some of the conditions which (unfortunately) present to same or that psychiatrists don't get consulted or have any business commenting upon procedures for which they are not expert is a "strawman argument"?

(laughter)

Noting that two "legal guys" don't know what a "strawman argument" is is the cherry on top.

(laughter)

I'm angry.

I'm angry that a physician, who helped women in dire straits in dealing with horrific outcomes, was murdered in his own church for procedures which were completely legal, procedures which had withstood dishonest prosecutions at the State level from dishonest and dishonorable "anti-abortionists".

I don't think I need to apologize for that.

I'm angry at the anti-abortionists who misrepresent themselves, clinical presentations, the law, and public opinion in an effort to sway public opinion for a cause they don't care about five minutes after the "fetus" is born.

This current "anti-abortion" push is a reaction to the Obama election, nothing more. The far right is grasping for whatever "hot button" issues remain in a desperate attempt to remain relevant.

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shockchalk 4 years, 10 months ago

Satirical is spot-on in regards to porch_person. He doesn't know how to have an original thought. And his arguments are based on lies that he tries to pass as statements someone else made. Obviously, a very insecure person with little or no intelligence.

I hope Dr. Tillers funeral go on with little interruption from the outside. His family deserves that.

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Satirical 4 years, 10 months ago

Liberty_One…

Soon you will have to realize that porch_person’s preferred method of arguing is putting words in your mouth and creating strawman arguments. No matter how many times you repeat yourself she will continue to put words in your mouth so s/he can continue to argue, since s/he doesn’t know how to have a legitimate debate (especially for legal matters). For example, I had the exact same debate of PP v. Casey and Roe v. Wade a few days ago. I figured out a few days ago it’s best just to ignore this one.

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

Liberty_One,

"This means, on the other hand, that, for the period of pregnancy prior to this "compelling" point, the attending physician, in consultation with his patient, is free to determine, without regulation by the State, that, in his medical judgment, the patient's pregnancy should be terminated. If that decision is reached, the judgment may be effectuated by an abortion free of interference by the State.

With respect to the State's important and legitimate interest in potential life, the "compelling" point is at viability. This is so because the fetus then presumably has the capability of meaningful life outside the mother's womb. State regulation protective of fetal life after viability thus has both logical and biological justifications. If the State is interested in protecting fetal life after viability, it may go so far as to proscribe abortion [410 U.S. 113, 164] during that period, except when it is necessary to preserve the life or health of the mother.

...

(a) For the stage prior to approximately the end of the first trimester, the abortion decision and its effectuation must be left to the medical judgment of the pregnant woman's attending physician.

(b) For the stage subsequent to approximately the end of the first trimester, the State, in promoting its interest in the health of the mother, may, if it chooses, regulate the abortion procedure in ways that are reasonably related to maternal health.

(c) For the stage subsequent to viability, the State in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life [410 U.S. 113, 165] may, if it chooses, regulate, and even proscribe, abortion except where it is necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother. "

========

Want to tell the rest of the class where that quote came from?

And after that, do you want to continue to claim that Planned Parenthood v Casey "overturned" Roe v Wade?

It's the exact same language.

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

Liberty_One,

When one quotes a passage, it is normally put in quotations or did they not teach you that in school?

We don't disagree on what Planned Parenthood v Casey changed in abortion law, just the language in how great a change occurred . You use the rhetoric that Planned Parenthood v Casey "overturned" Roe v Wade.

It did not.

The plurality decision from the US Supreme Court was that the State of Pennsylvania could impose certain restrictions on abortion services and those restrictions were consistent with the Constitution.

These restrictions were (1) informed consent (which occurs before any procedure anyway), (2) parental consent (for minors) and (3) a 24 hour waiting period before procedure. It also changed the criteria for when the State could intervene on a mother's choice to have or not have a child to at "point of viability" or when the fetus could reasonably live independent of the mother.

Did this decision change abortion practice in the United States? No. The "point of viability" occurs in the second trimester and Roe v Wade already allowed that states could regulate abortion in the second trimester. I'm surprised you didn't know that, being a "legal guy" and all that.

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BigPrune 4 years, 10 months ago

I thought Tiller belonged to some reformed Lutheran sect. He was shot at a reformed Lutheran church. Why is his funeral at a United Methodist Church, because Methodists believe in unborn baby killing on demand?

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parlet 4 years, 10 months ago

porch_person (Anonymous) says… "Are you asking us to turn down the volume or would it just be simpler for you to develop some discrimination you don't currently possess?"

Take a week off with pay.

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Liberty_One 4 years, 10 months ago

porch, please then, send your corrections to Aspen Publishers, because that was a direct quote from their emanuel law outline: Constitutional Law. The quote comes from page 164.

Regarding Carhart, I wasn't extrapolating that single decision into "Roe v. Wade is not binding law." That's why I used the word "furthermore" to indicate that it was an additional piece of information.

"The problem for you is"

Huh? I have no idea why you say these things and try and put arguments into my keyboard. For the record, I think it's silly to make the distinguishing point at 20 weeks, 22 weeks, 28 weeks or whatever. I think the whole line of cases is based on faulty reasoning and should be put in terms of life, liberty and property. Privacy interests don't make sense outside the context of a property interest.

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

Liberty_One,

I'd have to disagree with you on your report of what Planned Parenthood v Casey modified in Roe v Wade. I've already listed (to your alterego) the various changes to the law and they deal mostly with paperwork (consents, pre-procedure education, waiting periods). These are quite specific. I've already mentioned the change from the trimester system to one of viability, which is only a change from 22 weeks to 20 weeks.

The problem for you is that a non-viable fetus which survives in the womb past 20 weeks is still non-viable and the State has no voice in that case except to be made aware of the condition of that fetus. This is what Kline tried to do and he ended up with egg on his face when the data came out.

You're misrepresenting that the States can impose restrictions outside of the ones listed in the plurality decision and that's dishonest. The restrictions of Planned Parenthood v Casey are, quite frankly, superficial.

Carhart dealt with a very specific procedure. "Partial birth abortions", not pre-viable pregnancies nor non-viable fetuses. It's a wild misrepresentation to extrapolate that decision into "Roe v Wade is not binding law".

You're doing a lot of misrepresentation here. You wouldn't have to if you adhered to the truth.

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

75X55

There doesn't have to be a medical justification for aborting a fetus (or blastula or morula or whatever) prior to viability.

Remember, the only condition where the State (and anti-abortionists) have any voice at all is when the fetus becomes viable.

You knew that, didn't you?

I was just wondering if you were trying to claim that "pre-viable" fetuses were somehow viable while they were still "not viable". I had the impression from your previous posts that you might make that logical error.

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75x55 4 years, 10 months ago

“Pre-viable” = “Not-viable”.

Hence the deceptive nature of your argument. Shall we cart out all the sad stories of women with terminally defective fetuses that must have abortion option, some noted in your past postings here?

Those 'defective' fetuses, that would never be born alive or live for more than a few hours, are 'non-viable'.... Yet, a fetus that cannot yet live outside the womb is also 'non-viable', even though a few more weeks of development would bring that 'viability' into being.

So - you appear to say these two conditions are qualitatively identical - ("“Pre-viable” = “Not-viable”")

That is a dishonest and deceptive concept.

I would propose that it would be rare indeed to find a medical justification for aborting a healthy, normally-developing fetus that just happens to not be able to live outside the womb yet.

You know what's curious - I would be willing to concede in certain cases of terminally defective fetuses, yet how difficult it is to have an honest discussion when fungible terms are proposed and manipulated. Almost along the same lines as "mental distress" - another rather ambiguous expression.

You're quite a disappointment.

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Liberty_One 4 years, 10 months ago

Regardless, PP v. Casey does partially overrule Roe v. Wade. From Emanuel's Con Law Outline: In Casey, a majority of the Court declined to overrule Roe v. Wade explicitly. However, important aspects of Roe--including abortion's status as a fundamental right," the state's almost complete inability to regulate first-trimester abortions, and in fact the whoel trimester framework of Roe--were all overturned. As a result of Casey, the states may restrict abortion so long as they do not place "undue burdens" on teh woman's right to choose.

Furthermore, the 2007 decision Gonzales v. Carhart indicates that both the state and federal government have far greater scope to regulate the abortion process than they did before Casey. Really the only part of Roe that stands is the basic holding that abortion is legal. When looking to specific issues like late-term abortions, partial birth, consent issues, waiting periods etc. Roe v. Wade is not binding law.

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

Unless Liberty_One and Satirical are sock-puppets of one another......

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

Liberty_One,

I must apologize. My discussions re: Planned Parenthood v Casey were with Satirical on another, closely related thread. I falsely attributed his posts to you and for that, I apologize. I'll try to be more careful next time.

Again, please accept my heartfelt apologies.

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

Liberty_One,

You got busted "implying" that Planned Parenthood v Casey had overturned Roe v Wade. It hadn't.

You got busted using the "60,000" figure without any support at all for its validity.

I noted that you admitted that Planned Parenthood v Casey HAD NOT overturned Roe v Wade.

You claim that you had not "talked about it" (Planned Parenthood v Casey) "for a month", yet George Tiller and these threads are only days old.

You claim that I don't understand Planned Parenthood v Casey but our readers enjoyed a concise summary of the plurality decision from me, not from LIBERTY "I'm trained in the law" ONE.

Earlier you were using the fact that you had read the decision as some point of support for your "implication" that Planned Parenthood v Casey had overturned Roe v Wade. Remember that?

But while you're doing so well explaining to us how what Dr. Tiller was doing was against the law, your understanding of obstetrics and abortion law, and how consistent you can be, excuse me while I......

(laugh)

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

75X55,

"Pre-viable" = "Not-viable".

You knew that, didn't you.

Abortion of "pre-viable" fetuses is completely legal in the United States at all times.

You knew that too, didn't you?

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Liberty_One 4 years, 10 months ago

porch, who are you talking about? Arguing on multiple threads about Tiller? Me? What? You are going off the deep end. And using "some guy on a thread somewhere" as a source? I simply was asking if that number was correct. I doubted it myself. You are talking about someone else here, or you are going loony.

"It's taken you days to finally admit that it did not."

Days? I haven't talked about that for at least a month. Who are you talking to?

"your last paragraph says that Planned Parenthood v Casey did not overturn Roe v Wade and it did overturn it simultaneously."

Oh my, please stop with the armchair lawyering and leave it to those of us who are trained in the law. You still are very confused over these legal concepts, and I've already explained it to you the best I could. The idea that the central holding of Roe v. Wade stood but the details were overturned apparantly is too complex a concept for you to understand. I am sorry that you cannot understand the world as well as I can, that must suck.

Regardless, please find the real person you are arguing against since you seem to be in a pitched discussion on multiple threads with this fellow.

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75x55 4 years, 10 months ago

"The problem for anti-abortionists is that 99.5% of abortions occur well before that point of viability. "

Whoa. Now we see your obsession with that word 'viable'.

You're neatly ignoring the fact that "pre-viable" is NOT the same as "un-viable".

"Viable" is also confuses the meaning of 'cannot survive outside the womb now' with 'won't ever survive outside the womb'.

Very curious thing, semantics. One can look 'dishonest' very quickly.

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gogoplata 4 years, 10 months ago

You anti-life terrorists are a sick bunch of people.

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

Liberty_One,

(laughter)

Oh, so your source for the "60,000" was "some guy on a thread somewhere"?!!?!?

(laughter)

So much for the diligent research!!

(laughter)

You've been spending DAYS arguing on multiple threads regarding Dr. Tiller and now you're attempting to claim that you weren't thinking about Tiller at all?

(laughter)

That's a little like losing a chess match and declaring you "weren't really playing" before you get checkmated.

(laughter)

You got caught trying to say that Planned Parenthood v Casey had overturned Roe v Wade. It hadn't and I called you on it. It's taken you days to finally admit that it did not.

Like some snake oil salesman, your last paragraph says that Planned Parenthood v Casey did not overturn Roe v Wade and it did overturn it simultaneously.

Such BS!!

And you wonder why I laugh...

(laughter)

Doofus, just because Planned Parenthood v Casey occurred later in time does not mean it overturned Roe v Wade. Planned Parenthood v Casey upheld the constitutionality of requirements for informed consent, parental consent, a 24 hour waiting requirement and determined to be unconstitutional a requirement for spousal notification and lessened the reporting requirements for clinics performing abortions. Planned Parenthood v Casey also introduced the concept of fetal viability (vs gestational age) as a criteria which could be used to restrict abortions.

The problem for anti-abortionists is that 99.5% of abortions occur well before that point of viability. The other problem for anti-abortionists is that the fetuses which are aborted after 20 weeks AREN'T VIABLE. The fetuses have no brains or are hydrocephalic, or their lungs haven't developed or any one of a number of developmental conditions which no one can solve but might not become apparent until a sonogram in the office is done.

Anti-abortionists try to get around this by "pretending" that the fetuses are "Johnny-on-the-football-team" but in reality, they are just lying. Phill Kline discovered that when he raided Dr. Tiller's clinic.

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Liberty_One 4 years, 10 months ago

porch, I pulled nothing out of thin air, 60,000 was the number being thrown around by others here on this very thread. If the number is different, then by all means don't hold it back.

As for your analysis of my thinking, it's rather humorous since I haven't given Tiller much thought at all. I wonder against whom you are really arguing?

As for you last statement, yes, Planned Parenthood v. Casey is the current law regarding abortions, not Roe v. Wade. PP v. Casey overturned several elements of R v. W. but maintained the general "right" to have an abortion. I understand that a simple mind like yours would probably not comprehend this distinction upon first glance, so I apologize for any misunderstanding on your part. Of course the central holding of Roe v. Wade was not overturned, nor the basic reasoning that concludes that abortion is a liberty protected by the 14th amendment. It is the details that are overruled, such as changing to an "undue burden" standard away from a "heightened scrutiny" standard. These subtle legal differences probably have no meaning for the legally ignorant such as yourself, so I can see how the concept of Roe v. Wade being "overturned" would be rather confusing to you. Sorry!

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

Liberty_One,

I have no idea what the gestational breakdown of Dr. Tiller's patient population was.

I do know that if, as you "imply", it matched the national patterns from the CDC / abortionfacts.com reference I've provided, then 99.5% of the abortions he was performing were completely legal in all fifty states.

Of that 0.5% remaining, Phill Kline lied to get a search warrant for Dr. Tiller's clinic and STILL could not find illegality.

You see, you want to misrepresent the (undocumented) "60,000" figure into as short a time frame as possible in order to demonize Dr. Tiller as much as possible. We have no reference from you for the "60,000" figure, you just pulled it out of thin air because it's large. Likewise, we have no time frame to put it in context. Is the "60,000" over a weekend, a week, a month, a year, thirty years? See? You let the reader fill in the blank. Much more effective public relations ploy that way.

You want to misrepresent the condition of the fetus in order to deceive the public, gain money and political capital and demonize Dr. Tiller as much as possible. Telling potential supporters that the fetus being aborted might not have a brain or has a head the size of a volleyball filled with nothing but fluid won't get you that righteous anger that brings in the bucks.

You have already misrepresented the state of the law governing abortions in America and I've called you on it. Planned Parenthood v Casey did not overturn Roe v Wade and you know it.

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

misplacedcheesehead

My wife and I suffered through two miscarriages. If you've just gone through a miscarriage, I would think an abortion thread is the last place you would choose to start reading but I couldn't stop you from here.

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Liberty_One 4 years, 10 months ago

porch, what makes you think that Tiller only performed late term abortions?

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Liberty_One 4 years, 10 months ago

beo, I posted the source right along with the numbers....

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Christine Anderson 4 years, 10 months ago

Thanks, "Porch" for the comment about miscarriages. I experienced one last weekend. Had just got to the point where I'm not crying all the time. Thanks.

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Hawk6643 4 years, 10 months ago

Who cares! Let's just face it, the conservative people are never going to give up that fight that "we are killing millions of babies that are God's children" blah blah blah blah blah, and the liberals will never stop fighting with the said conservatives.

What most the people on here need to learn how to do is to shut their traps and believe in what they believe in and leave it at that. Stop trying to persuade people that you are right because IT IS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN! You will never win the abortion fight, there will always be doctors and women around killing their babies because they can. Get over it!

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beobachter 4 years, 10 months ago

Liberty_One, you seems to post a lot of numbers. Would you please post the source for these? Doubt your law school professors would let you use such arguments without backup data.

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

Liberty_One,

You're going to have to provide a better argument than that. Others on the forum have pointed out that the "60,000" figure is a misrepresentation.

According to the CDC (via abortionfacts.com), 15,652 abortions after 21 weeks were performed in the United States in 2005. http://www.abortionfacts.com/statistics/gestation.asp What percentage of that figure Dr. Tiller was responsible for is for you to provide. The State of Kansas examined Dr. Tiller's records and found nothing wrong, despite Phill Kline's dishonest persecution.

I can see you're learning. At least we're past the point where late term abortions are automatically assumed to be "murders of little Johnny".

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

Liberty_One,

Did you know that the vast majority of abortions occur in the first trimester? We're talking less than 0.5% after twenty weeks. ~15% in the second trimester.

http://www.abortionfacts.com/statistics/gestation.asp

In other words, what Dr. Tiller was doing was aborting (relatively) a small number of fetuses whose genetic malformations would not be detected until enough development had occurred to make them visible. They are discovered during sonograms in the office. These women were not aborting healthy babies they didn't want. They were dealing with horrific outcomes.

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75x55 4 years, 10 months ago

So, Liberty_one - are we to assume that there must be some significant number of abortions of viable fetuses going on out there?

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Liberty_One 4 years, 10 months ago

Reasons Women Choose Abortion (U.S.)

Wants to postpone childbearing: 25.5% Wants no (more) children: 7.9% Cannot afford a baby: 21.3% Having a child will disrupt education or job: 10.8% Has relationship problem or partner does not want pregnancy: 14.1% Too young; parent(s) or other(s) object to pregnancy: 12.2% Risk to maternal health: 2.8% Risk to fetal health: 3.3% Other: 2.1%

Source:Bankole, Akinrinola; Singh, Susheela; Haas, Taylor. Reasons Why Women Have Induced Abortions: Evidence from 27 Countries. International Family Planning Perspectives, 1998, 24(3):117–127 & 152 As reported by:The Alan Guttmacher Institute Online:

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75x55 4 years, 10 months ago

"don't you think?" No - I believe you're paranoid, and having difficulty reading what I wrote. "I wasn't asking for a meeting"

Frankly, I'm beginning to wonder if my assessment of you as a reasonable person might not be in error.

If I makes you feel any better - I've no intention of trying to meet anyone via these online comments areas. Who knows what kind of loonies travel here....

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Liberty_One 4 years, 10 months ago

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…

"What do the “vast majority” of abortions have to do the the late-term abortions that were performed by Tiller?"

All 60,000 were late term?

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

I'm angry at the murder of Dr. Tiller. I don't see any "love" in those who persecuted him for dealing with medical conditions and situations they neither understood or wanted to understand.

We can have a "reasonable discussion" here. No reason for you to want to get "face to face" with me other than to knock my block off or worse and we've already had too much of that, don't you think?

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75x55 4 years, 10 months ago

You assume too much, porchie. I wasn't asking for a meeting - I was saying that it would probably be the only way to actually have a reasonable discussion. Actually, I'm not angry. You on the other hand.... maybe?

Bye, bye!

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

75X55,

Gee, that sounds safe. A "face to face" meeting? Don't think so.

I seem to be one of the few on these threads who have been making the distinction of viable vs non-viable fetuses. For days now. Can you tell me why the anti-abortionists deliberately fail to make that distinction when they are out hustling money?

The difference between Dr. Tiller terminating a pregnancy and God doing it is the anti-abortionists make more money and political capital off of persecuting Dr. Tiller. Simple hypocrisy.

I think this forum is adequate for us to express our opinions and provide information. Maybe you should reexamine your mood in light of my objective information and wonder who you're really angry at, me or my objective information.

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75x55 4 years, 10 months ago

porch - we could probably have a very fruitful discussion, face to face. Here, as faceless entities that take on the characteristics of our worst imaginary enemies and stereotypes, where we cast the worst on the other - it's not likely to happen.

Speaking of God - do you know, He takes everyone's life sooner or later. What is the crime of murder after all, but the act that man (without authority) usurps the right of God to take a life. Miscarriage is a terrible thing, and strikes closer home than my previous example.

Perhaps we could speak of the difference between the abortion of non-viable and viable fetuses, and that might be more adaptable to your thinking. There is a difference, as you very clearly know and illustrate.

Ah, but it's too bad that cannot happen here - where we all wear the face that others project on our user names...

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75x55 4 years, 10 months ago

beo - I'm not attacking you, but I am pointing out the root of your question. He probably doesn't have any real numbers, because 'no one' has real numbers. As all my new good friends then seem to back up the point.

Isn't that the real problem though?

As I point out, 'That lack of accountability is a superhighway for abuse and corruption.'

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

75X55,

I'm sorry if you didn't read any of the other threads here at LJ World regarding Tiller's murder. Some of the conditions where a fetus will not survive is ancephalopathy (no brain at all). Another is hydrocephalopathy (where the brain is present or extremely atrophied and the cranium is filled with water). There are other conditions where the fetus will not survive. If the amniotic sac ruptures prematurely, the lungs will not develop. The fetus will die. A variety of neural and developmental pathologies. Shall I go on?

Part of the problem with a vaginal birth of a hydrocephalic baby is that their heads get very large. Volleyball-size large. It's a sick **** who wants a woman to deliver a brainless fetus with a head the size of a volleyball through her birth canal because they luv Jeesus and don't like abortion. Internal bleeding can occur when the process gets "backed up", damage to the uterus and vagina can occur, etc, etc.

You claim that the "elective" procedure isn't an "emergency" but experienced obstetricians painfully know that any obstetric procedure can turn "emergency" in a hurry. Anti-abortionists "pretend" differently. Somehow, they think it's as simple as changing the oil in your car.

The dishonesty is that the anti-abortionists "pretend" that the fetus is fully functional Johnny-on-the-football team. It makes them more money. They don't give a **** about the poor unfortunate woman who has to deal with these outcomes or (in some cases) with the incest or rape which caused the pregnancy.

See how when people learn more about the situation, they become pro-choice. When you have to lie to maintain "the evil" of abortion, God isn't on your side. God doesn't like liars.

Speaking of God, do you know who does the most "terminations"? Are you smart enough to guess this one? It isn't Dr. Tiller.

It's God. Yes, God. They are called "miscarriages". Kinda puts a different take on it, doesn't it?

I'm sorry about your family member. A friend of mine went through that and it's heart wrenching.

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sinverguenza 4 years, 10 months ago

We can't prove God doesn't exist so that means he must - despite the fact that there isn't one iota of any concrete evidence to prove he does, right 75X55?

There's some logic for you.

Assumptions about other people's business in which you have no business.... they'll get you every time.

Got proof of criminal activity on the part of Tiller or his patients? Put up or shut up.

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couranna1 4 years, 10 months ago

Kooks watch out if ytou want to turn it into a platform for your crap People will be watching you and the phelps inbreds it is my opinion you need to be muzzled just sayin

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beobachter 4 years, 10 months ago

75x55, I don't have to prove anything. I asked LO to back up his statement.

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75x55 4 years, 10 months ago

beo - how about proof they're not?

No one really knows, now do they?

That lack of accountability is a superhighway for abuse and corruption.

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bearlybrewed 4 years, 10 months ago

ibroke Save your hypocritical judgemental rants for sunday school. Who knows you may incite another killer then see no wrong in your acts.

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beobachter 4 years, 10 months ago

Liberty_One "In fact the vast majority of them are done for non-medical reasons. " Could you please provide proof that this is true?

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 10 months ago

What do the "vast majority" of abortions have to do the the late-term abortions that were performed by Tiller? Your conflating of the two make your arguments here totally worthless, LO.

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Liberty_One 4 years, 10 months ago

Porch, you poor thing. Let me explain what my post was saying since it is too hard for you to figure out on your own. I never claimed to know what situations make abortions necessary, only that some abortions are not done for medical reasons. In fact the vast majority of them are done for non-medical reasons. Reasons like not wanting to have children, not being able to afford one, not wanting people to know etc. One doesn't need a medical license to understand those reasons, dum dum.

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75x55 4 years, 10 months ago

"If you aren't aware of some of the presentations that can occur in obstetrics, go to medical school. I've mentioned several."

Porchie - where did you mention these? Found none in this thread, until AFTER this post, and only one - your 11:57pm post.

In that particular case ('fetus with no brain') you still don't illustrate where this falls under the aegis of 'medical emergency'. Tragedy, yes - life-threatening emergency, no. As a personal aside, I have a relation that experienced just this sort of pregnancy - she gave birth to the child, who died two days afterwards.

You seemed to keep missing the distinction I'm making between the obstetric medical emergency and an obstetric elective procedure. You keep blaring at people about their "dishonesty", when you seem to be "dishonest" in your avoidance of that question.

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

http://www.godhatesfags.com/schedule.html

Jeez, you ever read what that guy posts? He's nuts. Not "life of the party" nuts. I'm talking INSANE.

Paranoid Schizophrenic Insane.

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

Mr. Lynn, as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow. No way he will miss this.

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Marion Lynn 4 years, 10 months ago

Enquiring minds want to know if Phred and his Klan are going to picket!

Anybody know?

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

Sure you did. Check out your post of 10:37 PM.

God, the dishonesty of the anti-abortion crowd. Half the time you guys can't even stand behind your own posts.

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Liberty_One 4 years, 10 months ago

porch, I never claimed knowledge of what situations make abortions necessary. That has nothing to do with anything I've said anyway. Try thinking before typing, we'll all be better off for it. You are attributing someone else's comments to me, dum dum.

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

Liberty_One,

the onus is clearly on you, as it was on Kline. Tiller was doing nothing wrong.

Because you're ignorant of the medical situations which make those late abortions necessary does not create a world where your ignorance magically turns into reality just because you want it to..

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

Liberty_One,

The number of abortions of fetuses that don't have brains? Do you have that figure or are you under the impression that all fetuses are fully functional?

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notyourmom 4 years, 10 months ago

Wait, wait, wait. Tiller did not perform 60,000 late term abortions. Over 35ish years it's estimated that he performed that many abortions total. Tiller was recently involved in a legal dispute (aquitted) regarding 19 late term abortions. There is a big difference between 60,000 and 19 anythings.

The Guttmacher Institute estimates that 60,000 to 80,000 women die globally every year from unsafe abortions. That's PER YEAR. And 5,000,000 sufer permanent injury. Again, making abortion illigal does not stop it. It just makes it unsafe.

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Liberty_One 4 years, 10 months ago

What's the percent? You implied it was 100% by your rant regarding how little I cared about the 60,000 mothers who were all going to perish except for this wonderful man. YOU made that statement, so YOU back it up. What is the actual percent and how do you know? Or are you going to recant your post?

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 10 months ago

You're the one making assumptions, LO. There are laws governing late-term abortions, and given that he was recently acquitted on all of numerous charges in that regard, the burden of proof is squarely on all you supporters to the terrorist who murdered him.

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Liberty_One 4 years, 10 months ago

bozo are you serious? Do you really think it's even close to 100%? I know what the actual rate is, I just want to see how ignorant you are first. What do you think the actual rate is?

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 10 months ago

"Name one medical condition where the mother would die if she attempted to carry to term, that the current state of the medical arts wouldn't be able to deal with?"

Not my job or yours. That's the job of the medical practitioner in consultation with their patient.

But clearly, you'd rather assert that there are no conditions just to justify cold-blooded murder.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 10 months ago

What is the rate, and what is your source of info? O'Reilly?

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Liberty_One 4 years, 10 months ago

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…

"What about the 60,000 (did one of O'Reilly's writers pull that number out of a hat?) mothers who would have died or been seriously injured by creating this mythical town? Do you even care?"

The rate of abortions done to save the mother's life is not 100% dummy.

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rooster 4 years, 10 months ago

Chicklet is obviously missing the point. Big Time!

My post was in reference to the above post (by liberty_one)that 60,000 babies are just killed that could have become a live human when infact they would not have survived outwide of the womb. That is not a scare tactic, but you are an idiot.

It is precisely why a woman should have a choice since there is 100% certainty that the child would not live outside the womb.

The subsequent email furthers the point by expressing that the god most pro-lifers refer to when speaking on abortion is infact the reason that said child won't live.

Chicklet you have clearly displayed your inability to grasp the progression of posts or their meanings.

Oh well.

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Liberty_One 4 years, 10 months ago

rooster (Anonymous) says…

"Just remember liberty_one that GOD did that to all of those babies!

Maybe he should die?"

There is no such thing as a god silly rabbit.

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

75X55,

You claimed to not know of conditions where a mother's life would be threatened by a non-viable fetus. I provided several, along with the mechanism for that deterioration. Now you have some sort of mistaken impression that medical science can make that pregnancy come to term with a viable baby. You've been watching too many anti-abortion videos.

On your comment associating the "incendiary terms" of pro-choicers with the "incendiary terms" coming from anti-Bushers, everyone "understood" what you were saying. You even reinforced that "understanding" with language in your "explanation".

Stop being dishonest. If you can.

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chicklet 4 years, 10 months ago

If abortion is so wrong, then change the law. Why haven't you been able to? Oh that's right, because most of america believes a women should have a choice. Put that in your pipe.

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chicklet 4 years, 10 months ago

You're a nasty piece of work putting up a link to the anacephaly images, which is in fact a birth defect. Sick people and your scare tactics.

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75x55 4 years, 10 months ago

Porchie - your first paragraph falls in the area of "medical emergencies". Now, do women with medical emergencies travel hundreds to thousands of miles, from other countries for emergency medical procedures from 'out-patient'-type clinics? You are missing the question.

Secondly, you're just letting your 'dander' get the better of you. Try another read, and realize the subject of that post being "incendiary terms" and not "Bush" - your BDS is getting the better of you. (Yes, we are speaking of the 5:01pm post - thanks for keeping that clear).

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

75X55

If you aren't aware of some of the presentations that can occur in obstetrics, go to medical school. I've mentioned several. For your information, the uterus is highly vascularized during pregnancy and mothers can bleed out in a real hurry when problems arise.

On my comment regarding your post of 5:01 PM, you wouldn't be the first conservative anti-abortionist here who attempted to claim that he was misunderstood when he said something stupid and indefensible. Nor would you be the first to attempt to change the subject to one where you have "issues".

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75x55 4 years, 10 months ago

"If a woman can't carry a pregnancy to term, she deserves to die, right 75x55?"

Name one medical condition where the mother would die if she attempted to carry to term, that the current state of the medical arts wouldn't be able to deal with?

Now, which of those conditions is NOT a medical emergency where the elective nature of Dr. Tiller's "services" would be the primary preferred method of resolution?

Take your time.... I'm really interested in such a condition that is so common as to be counted in the thousands every year...


Hey porchie - someone whiz in your wheaties? Read that post again - didn't claim to be fan of anyone, just observing that 'incendiary terms' is a pretty ineffective way for some folks to try an make political hay off a man's murder.

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Agnostick 4 years, 10 months ago

"If you are ready... this is your film."

"You will be rewarded with excellent performances from all... especially Bello and Patric..."

"I admire Renck's tenacity in not compromising an iota of his vision for this work... I would... sit through it again."

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35387

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 10 months ago

"60,000. That's an entire town of people…"

What about the 60,000 (did one of O'Reilly's writers pull that number out of a hat?) mothers who would have died or been seriously injured by creating this mythical town? Do you even care?

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rooster 4 years, 10 months ago

Just remember liberty_one that GOD did that to all of those babies!

Maybe he should die?

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Liberty_One 4 years, 10 months ago

60,000. That's an entire town of people...

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porch_person 4 years, 10 months ago

75X55,

Gee, it guess it must be a b!tch to know that America doesn't approve of George W. Bush or the killer of George Tiller. I guess you picked the wrong group to join.

Are you asking us to turn down the volume or would it just be simpler for you to develop some discrimination you don't currently possess?

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75x55 4 years, 10 months ago

Incendiary terms..... hmmm.

How many here have crowed "Bush the war criminal"? Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/et al the "war criminals" and "murderers"?

Complaints of "incendiary terms" seem a little weak, indeed.

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justthefacts 4 years, 10 months ago

Part two from Elborak site:

Finally, I suppose one thing needs to be added. George Tiller committed a lot of evil acts. But he committed them on behalf of others. A lot of others. Members of our familes, and our churches. People we know and love. And forgive. America is not so much better off with George Tiller dead as it will be on the day all of our nation's George Tillers are seeking unemployment benefits because no one wants their services. The real problem does not lie in our courts or even in our abortion clinics: it lies in our hearts.

  • For those who think that he needed killing, why didn't you do it yourselves? ** The "whatever he has done" is a funny thing, because the left, to pump up the moral outrage, is forced to say that plunging a pair of scissors into the head of a newborn is a morally neutral (at worst) or morally praiseworthy (at best) act. One cannot say, "I personally disagree with abortion..." (with all the pablum that follows) and yet conclude that one who performs them, especially as Tiller did, is virtuous.

*** Try telling someone you have forgiven Hitler and see what I mean.

**** I don't think they are, but I'm willing to grant the point for the sake of argument.

* Not personally, but because I spent the last three hours comparing a couple accounts of the Second Battle of Newtonia.

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justthefacts 4 years, 10 months ago

http://elborak.blogspot.com/ Killing an unarmed man in church is not justice, whatever he has done**. However, one cannot argue that Tiller's position and chosen profession were not factors in his murder.

The theological point is that there are a number of self-proclaimed Christians who express blind hatred for the man himself. Christians simply cannot harbor that kind of hatred in ourselves and expect to be unchanged by it.

There is a temptation to revel in hatred, especially when it sits so close to justice, and especially when we have our peers on our side. It is easy to hate Hitler, and no one will criticize us for it because of his evil. But does our hatred become good because it is directed at a person who crossed some undemarcated threshold of evil? What about our hatred of someone who did a little less evil? At what point does our hatred of others reveal itself not as justice, but as a self-righteousness-fueled flaw in our own character? Only when it gets past Bush or Obama or FDR or our boss and gets down to Mother Theresa?

If we examine ourselves, not only will we find we inhabit a spot somewhere between Mother Theresa and Lincoln, between Saint John Chrysostom and Nero, but we will find a person who does evil and yet whom we do not hate. In fact, we love ourselves. And we are called on to love our neighbor, and that includes George Tiller, as we love ourselves.

And that must change our perspective a bit, not on hating sin, but perhaps upon wishing to visit nasty things on Tiller's corpse:

Forgiveness, they say, is the most hateful and contemptible of all virtues, because it so often seems to fly in the face of justice. We Christians are called on to forgive others as we would be forgiven, even when those others are contemptible and despicable. It's not that it's too high a virtue, but too low of one***. Now, either Tiller has done nothing to us that needs to be forgiven (in which case we have no just cause for animosity) or we, as individual Christians wronged by him, need to forgive him. We cannot hate him nor revel in hatred. "Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who trespass against us." There are no other terms under which we can expect forgiveness for our own sins. It does not mean that we cannot punish evil or that we must say Tiller was a fine chap, it simply means we need to let go of that part of us that demands to get even. God does not take pleasure in the death of the wicked, and neither should we.

The second, which seems a fellow-traveler with the first, is reveling in vigilantism. One simply cannot have a society that allows individuals to mete out fatal punishment based on their own conclusions, knowledge, desires, feelings and morality. It's not just that it's a bad idea, but such a society cannot long exist in peace. The examples are myriad, but the one closest to me presently* is Bleeding Kansas and the Western front of the Civil War.

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Keith 4 years, 10 months ago

"Mr_Nancy_Boy_To_You (Tom Shewmon) says…

Anyone know if it was a headshot or where Roeder place the bullet? I'm assuming it was a headshot. Wonder if coroner photos will be leaked on the net?"

Please, if you feel the need to tell Tom where to find his snuff porn, do it in a private message.

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rooster 4 years, 10 months ago

Mr_Nancy_Boy_To_You (Tom Shewmon) says… O'Reilly never told one lie about Tiller. Try again.

Sure, but he called him incendiary terms in every opportunity he had.

If that is okay with you tom, then we shall start to refer to you as Nazi Tom. How's that sound?

Taliban Tom, even better.

To those of you who think Dr. Tiller just killed 60,000 babies for fun, why don't you read about this womans experience with abortion and Dr. Tiller.
http://iowaindependent.com/2565/open-letter-to-obama-a-personal-perspective-on-late-term-abortion

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Christine Anderson 4 years, 10 months ago

I stand by what I posted on Sunday, shortly after the news broke. I said that Tiller being killed was just as wrong as the late-term abortions he performed. It remains true that all Roeder has accomplished is one more murder. So, having made my position clear on Tiller's murder being wrong, now for the other side.... My last two living children were born at 34 weeks, and 36 weeks. My older one would have fallen into the category of babies with anomalies, as he is profoundly autistic. There is currently no way to know if a child has this particular "anomaly" prior to their birth. My point here is that Tiller would have gladly provided his "services", IF I had known, and IF I had been arrogant enough to think I had the right to have him killed just because he is severely impaired, and will never live what WE think is a normal life. I would never, ever have even considered it, even if I knew then what life would be like now. You see, that would have made me a murderer, just as much as Tiller, just as much as Roeder. The more posts and articles I have read on this, the angrier I become, and the more grief I feel. Yes, I believe in peaceful means of protest only, and I believe it was murder to kill Tiller. That being said, who is holding vigils for all the babies he murdered, dammit?? Oh, Brian R. , you did say there were nutjobs all over the internet, claiming Tiller aborted "X" number of perfectly healthy babies. Stating Tiller aborted "X" number of healthy babies does NOT mean they were ALL healthy. But guess what-to me it does not matter. Yes, the laws of Ks will prosecute Tiller's killer, and so they should. So, who is prosecuting Tiller? The Ultimate Judge, that's Who! (Notice I did not say myself or any other prolifer.) I can't take any more of this lop-sided sympathy for Tiller. If you think all prolifers are applauding Tiller's murder, you are wrong! If you think all prolifers advocate violence, you are wrong! If most of you think we are all nutjobs for thinking the aborted babies were victims too, then bring on the label! I'll wear it proudly.

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Jersey_Girl 4 years, 10 months ago

Marion - he was a medical doctor. In announcing his funeral, they could have simply stated that or the he was a doctor of women's health. If they needed to throw in the fact that he provided abortions, they could have put it another paragraph, towards the end of the article, instead of using it as an introduction. Something along the lines of "Dr. Tiller was a controversial doctor that ran a women's clinic in Wichita that provided late-term abortions."

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notyourmom 4 years, 10 months ago

I think that number is a rough estimate based on his 35ish (37?) year career. I don't think anyone has a concrete number as that would be private information.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 10 months ago

Yea, giving vital essential medical care to women really sick. If a woman can't carry a pregnancy to term, she deserves to die, right 75x55?

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75x55 4 years, 10 months ago

"His death means that hundreds of not thousands of women whose pregnancies will kill or seriously injure them now have lost the only chance they had at obtaining the care that could save them."

If you actually believe this, you are indeed a sad kool-aid drinker....

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75x55 4 years, 10 months ago

Tiller clearly misspoke, Ronald. Those weren't babies, but protoplasmic blobs without soul or sensation.....

Either that, or he was indeed a monster, kept in motion by some strange self-delusion or severe lack of empathy for what it is to be human.

How the sheer horror of what this man did for decades escapes his supporters is beyond comprehension.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 10 months ago

An excellent article, Nancy. And it demonstrates quite well how fricking sick all you are for cheering the death of an extremely talented and skilled physician. His death means that hundreds of not thousands of women whose pregnancies will kill or seriously injure them now have lost the only chance they had at obtaining the care that could save them.

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RonaldWilson 4 years, 10 months ago

On the contrary, they don't always call them fetuses....

"This baby looks pretty good." --Tiller comments on the picture of a baby he aborted. THE WICHITA EAGLE, October 7, 1997

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demonfury 4 years, 10 months ago

The man was a Lutheran and they are going to have his service at a Methodist Church? Strange.... Couldn't find any other Lutheran churches to have this at? Why not at the church where he attended? CSI is finished with it. Can't wait to see the media attention this gets. Crazies from both extremes will come out of the woodwork on this one. Ought to be a hoot......

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Tom Shewmon 4 years, 10 months ago

Yes, Tiller aborted 60,000 babies. But the left calls them fetuses, to avoid any confusion. See, fetuses eventually.......oh forget it.

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RonaldWilson 4 years, 10 months ago

"We have some experience with late terminations... about 10,000 patients between 24 and 36 weeks and something like 800 fetal anomalies between 26 and 36 weeks in the past 5 years."

From a speech given by George R. Tiller at the National Abortion Federation Annual Meeting on April 2-4, 1995 in New Orleans, LA

Sounds like about 8% were not "healthy". That pretty much mirrors the national norm for all abortions.

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Tom Shewmon 4 years, 10 months ago

Until now bozo, I really didn't think you were that deeply immersed in the Kool-Aid. It's apparent you really are a huge fan of Olbermann, Maddow, dailykos, moveon and the entire far-left propaganda peddlers. O'Reilly never told one lie about Tiller. Try again.

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Liberty_One 4 years, 10 months ago

60,000? Is that number really correct?

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KansasVoter 4 years, 10 months ago

You anti-choice terrorists sure a sick bunch of people.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 10 months ago

Will your hero O'Reilly come in to take his proper credit for inciting the wackjob that committed this murder, Tom?

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notyourmom 4 years, 10 months ago

I have less of a problem calling him an abortion provider than the fact that he was slain. He provided a controversial. though legal, service to woman even in the face of opposition and death threats. He did what he thought was right and the mothers of 60,000 babies where provide safe medical procedures.

Just because some of us are pro-choice, that does not mean we are pro-abortion. We are pro safe and legal abortions until society can figure out that making abortions illigal does not prevent abortions. They just make them illegal and unsafe. Until those who are anti abortion are able to get some ground with ideas like being pro reasonable adoptions in the United States, pro birth control and safe sex education, and anti dead beat parents who create babies and abondon them, then all arguements for and against abortion are fruitless.

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Tom Shewmon 4 years, 10 months ago

I'd almost have to think for sure Sebelius will fly in for the service---if her handlers say it's OK. They were pretty close weren't they?

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BrianR 4 years, 10 months ago

Music_Girl (Anonymous) says… "...to think he only killed sick babies or babies that were a so-called “imminent” threat to their mothers is rather naive."

I re-read my post twice and, lo and behold, I can't find where I said that anywhere.

"... quote that you quoted didn't state that they were “healthy” only that “he killed 60,000 children”.

I said there were "...nutjobs all over the internet..." not referring at all to the moronic statement you claim I quoted.

Can you read?

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Tom Shewmon 4 years, 10 months ago

Anyone know if it was a headshot or where Roeder place the bullet? I'm assuming it was a headshot. Wonder if coroner photos will be leaked on the net?

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promitida 4 years, 10 months ago

Regardless of your position on this matter, you should not rejoice in a man's murder. And you certainly shouldn't be proclaiming how GOD knows what he did...in the same sentence in which you're passing judgement. The hypocricy of so called "good christians" or whatever is unbearable sometimes.

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madameX 4 years, 10 months ago

BigPrune, I'm thinking neither. I googled it and there were several stories that mention the flag outside the clinic flying at half staff, but no mention of if being ordered. By a-n-y-o-n-e.

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Robert Rauktis 4 years, 10 months ago

A good time to buy futures in candle wax.

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BigPrune 4 years, 10 months ago

Is it true that Presidente' Obama has ordered the US flag to be flown at half-staff on Saturday in rememberance of the late term abortionist, or was it the new governor, or neither?

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KS 4 years, 10 months ago

Jersey_Girl - As they say, "it is what it is!"

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Music_Girl 4 years, 10 months ago

BrianR...to think he only killed sick babies or babies that were a so-called "imminent" threat to their mothers is rather naive. Not to mention the quote that you quoted didn't state that they were "healthy" only that "he killed 60,000 children".

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Steve Jacob 4 years, 10 months ago

I am sure there will be a large police force, just in case.

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barrypenders 4 years, 10 months ago

Anyone know where I can send moner to keep up the stop gap tradition?

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BrianR 4 years, 10 months ago

ibroke (Anonymous) says… "jersey-girl –well he was a child killer his family knew it, you know it, GOD knows it! ,,he killed 60,000 children."

Wack-a-doodle-doo.

There are nutjobs all over the internet claiming the Dr. Tiller killed X-number of perfectly healthy babies. Where, I wonder, do they get the idea they were all healthy? WTF is wrong with you?

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ibroke 4 years, 10 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

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ibroke 4 years, 10 months ago

jersey-girl ---well he was a child killer his family knew it, you know it, GOD knows it! ,,he killed 60,000 children.

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Danimal 4 years, 10 months ago

Just when I thought that Kansas was starting to look a little more normal and sane this happens.

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Marion Lynn 4 years, 10 months ago

Marion writes:

Jersey_Girl (Anonymous), Tiller was certainly not known for making pizzas!

What is there to "soften" about his chosen profession?

Most obits contain a brief history of the life of the deceased.

Do you think Tiller is "special" in that regard?

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Jersey_Girl 4 years, 10 months ago

For those of you who are always crying that the media is leftist, I would say this article disputes that. To call him an "abortion provider" in the article about his funeral is rather inciderary, at least to me, especially in the first sentence. In such an article, I think that such descriptions should be softened, if only out of respect for his family and friends. In an article about who he was and what he did and why he was killed, fine. But in an article announcing his funeral, I found it rather "in your face".

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Marion Lynn 4 years, 10 months ago

I wonder if Phred and his Klan will picket?

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