Nation of faith / LJWorld.com

Letters to the Editor

Nancy M. Keel - Lawrence

July 8, 2009

Thank you to Hobby Lobby for the full page reminder “In God We Trust.” In these times, divine providence has been relegated to the back burner because of twisted thinking concerning the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.

On this July 4, 2009, it is appropriate that we are reminded and that the authors of Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States of America were guided by faith and trust in Almighty God. What an example our early leaders set for us to follow!

Discussion

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8 July 2009
at 4:37 a.m.

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Liberty_One (Anonymous) says…

Others of us have grown up and no longer believe in fairy tales.
8 July 2009
at 8:20 a.m.

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mom_of_three (Anonymous) says…

Jefferson, Franklin, even Washington and others were thought to be Deists. Not exactly the religion that you might have imagined they were speaking about.
8 July 2009
at 8:46 a.m.

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salad (Anonymous) says…

“Jefferson, Franklin, even Washington and others were thought to be Deists. Not exactly the religion that you might have imagined they were speaking about.”

And they (founding fathers) were largely Episcopalians.
BTW, “In God We Trust” was not added to paper currency until 1957. Here's the whole story:
http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-s…

Founding fathers had nothin' to do with it.
8 July 2009
at 9:14 a.m.

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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…

Salad:

Yeah, you are correct about *PAPER* currency, which point is often used in discussions like this as the Red Herring that it is.

In fact, “In God We Trust” first appeared on US coinage in 1864.

http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-s…

From the citation:

“The Congress passed the Act of April 22, 1864. This legislation changed the composition of the one-cent coin and authorized the minting of the two-cent coin. The Mint Director was directed to develop the designs for these coins for final approval of the Secretary. in god we trust first appeared on the 1864 two-cent coin.”

President Theodore Roosevelt said of the motto:

“Theodore Roosevelt disapproved of the motto. In a letter to William Boldly on 1907-NOV-11, he wrote:

“My own feeling in the matter is due to my very firm conviction that to put such a motto on coins, or to use it in any kindred manner, not only does no good but does positive harm, and is in effect irreverence, which comes dangerously close to sacrilege…It is a motto which it is indeed well to have inscribed on our great national monuments, in our temples of justice, in our legislative halls, and in building such as those at West Point and Annapolis — in short, wherever it will tend to arouse and inspire a lofty emotion in those who look thereon. But it seems to me eminently unwise to cheapen such a motto by use on coins, just as it would be to cheapen it by use on postage stamps, or in advertisements.”

http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat…

Marion writes:

I have not yet fully formed an opinion on the matter but am leaning towards advocating for the removal of the motto in the interest of Freedom of Religion.
8 July 2009
at 9:21 a.m.

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Irish (Irish Swearingen) says…

Oh, for pete's sake, why are you people being so nitpicky about this?
8 July 2009
at 9:22 a.m.

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craigers (Anonymous) says…

You all ought to check out www.wallbuilders.com for awhile. This group has one of the largest collections of originals and the main guy David Barton shares all the historical information very well. People like to say they were deists but a lot of the founding fathers were either active in their churches or ministers themselves. Even if your mind is already made up, you can take in some very interesting information on this website.
8 July 2009
at 9:24 a.m.

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75x55 (Anonymous) says…

“Not exactly the religion that you might have imagined they were speaking about.”

Mind-reading, much?

8 July 2009
at 9:33 a.m.

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logicsound09 (Anonymous) says…

“On this July 4, 2009, it is appropriate that we are reminded and that the authors of Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States of America were guided by faith and trust in Almighty God.”

––––––—

Actually, the founding fathers were guided by the belief that all men deserve freedom from oppression. Their belief in god/God, be it Deist, Episcopalian, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, is largely irrelevant to the reality of Independence Day.

If *you* believe in God and associate him with our independence, then that is your right. But it's letters like this that make some people of faith come across as obnoxious and 'holier than thou'—you can't just be secure in your own faith, but must write a letter to the editor lamenting the fact that our country as a whole has put faith on the “back burner”.
8 July 2009
at 10:02 a.m.

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salad (Anonymous) says…

Marion (Marion Lynn) says…

Salad:

Yeah, you are correct about *PAPER* currency, which point is often used in discussions like this as the Red Herring that it is.

In fact, “In God We Trust” first appeared on US coinage in 1864.

http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-s…

Thanks for repeating the incredibly obvious to those of us who know how to use a mouse and read, Marion. It's all in the link I provided. No red herring here!
8 July 2009
at 10:13 a.m.

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75x55 (Anonymous) says…

“Their belief in god/God, be it Deist, Episcopalian, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, is largely irrelevant to the reality of Independence Day.”

Winner - Ignorant Statement-of-the-Day.
8 July 2009
at 10:36 a.m.

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porch_person (Anonymous) says…

75X55

Logicsound09's point is constitutionally sound. It's unconstitutional to promote a deistic religion over a non-deistic religion in America.

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”.

I knew that was an item that you “didn't know”.
8 July 2009
at 10:40 a.m.

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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…

You folks also need to remember that in the vernacular of the time, “respecting” meant “having to do with”, not delivering “respect” or approval as we use the word today.
8 July 2009
at 10:41 a.m.

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logicsound09 (Anonymous) says…

How is my point ignorant?

Care to explain—or just stick with your typical non-response?

It figures that your handle is a rifle shell, given your penchant for firing off quick one-liners. Althought I daresay a bullet has more substance…
8 July 2009
at 11:05 a.m.

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KansasVoter (Anonymous) says…

Why is it that republicans always have to lie about everything?
8 July 2009
at 11:06 a.m.

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ukillaJJ (Anonymous) says…

Maybe you should re-read a couple of your history books? We didn't starting “trusting god” until the mid 50s; probably due to McCarthy-era xenophobic fear of Latin phrases such as “e pluribus unum”.

8 July 2009
at 11:18 a.m.

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AreUNorml (Anonymous) says…

mmmm I Love the religious debate. Keep chanting the slogans & mottos that have kept you slaves for hundreds and thousands of years. bow down to a great king and succumb to the hypocritical desires of mere men.
8 July 2009
at 11:21 a.m.

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Satirical (Anonymous) says…

logicsound…

Perhaps 75x55's point was that our Nation was founded largely based on religious liberty, and the Declaration of Independence references a Creator.

Therefore, belief in a God is relevant to Independence day since our creation of a nation and our independence was substantially influenced by a divine being.
8 July 2009
at 11:23 a.m.

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AreUNorml (Anonymous) says…

“Therefore, belief in a God is relevant to Independence day since our creation of a nation and our independence was substantially influenced by a divine being.”
*****************
I would say, it was substantially influenced FOR a divine being (that doesn't really exist)
8 July 2009
at 11:27 a.m.

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porch_person (Anonymous) says…

Satirical,

75X55 was ignorant of the US Constitution, that's all. He doesn't like Logicsound09 as well.

The framers of the Constitution were largely deist but they (very wisely) made the decision to not choose any “true” religion. An extremely wise and enlightened move. This was based upon the experience of religious persecution in Europe.

In America, all religions are protected. Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, Shinto, Native religions, Satanism, etc. It's one of the things that makes America great and inclusive.
8 July 2009
at 11:29 a.m.

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ladyoneill (Anonymous) says…

Where on Earth (or these United States) has “divine providence [has] been relegated to the back burner”? I have the Christian god thrust into my face all the time and this ad is just one example.

As for the founding fathers, I think they'd be rolling in their graves over some of the twists the religious right have done to the constitution. Every time I'm told a certain religion is the only “right” way, every time a religion is pushed into my face and my own denied, the First Amendment is being twisted.

And one of our founding fathers was a Unitarian. True, the religion has changed since the 18th century but the tenet of developing ones own belief system and respecting others was in existence back then.

And Jefferson had very interesting views on religion that weren't exactly mainstream Christian.
8 July 2009
at 11:36 a.m.

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TomShewmon (Tom Shewmon) says…

Ms. Keel, now you've gone and upset all the godless far-left zealots in Lawrence. Shame on you! They've probably all broken out in hives.
8 July 2009
at 11:36 a.m.

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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…

ukillaJJ, excellent point! Marion is correct about “In God We Trust” appearing on 19th century coins, but as you point out, it wasn't until the Cold War that those words were elevated to being our “national motto.” It was during this same time that Congress, in another drunken power grab, took one man's intellectual property and manipulated it for their own irreverent and selfish ends. I'm referring, of course, to the pseudopatriotic insertion of the words “under God” into the Pledge of Allegiance.
8 July 2009
at 11:39 a.m.

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Calliope877 (Anonymous) says…

Satirical (Anonymous) says…

logicsound…

Perhaps 75x55's point was that our Nation was founded largely based on religious liberty, and the Declaration of Independence references a Creator.

Therefore, belief in a God is relevant to Independence day since our creation of a nation and our independence was substantially influenced by a divine being.

I disagree to some extent. The creation of this nation and our independence was influenced by the desire for freedom. Freedom from the heavy taxation the British empire imposed on the colonies at the time, and freedom to worship or not worship a deity. It's true the Declaration of Independence references a creator, but it's presumptious to think they were referencing the Christian idea of a creator considering the fact immigrants to the country were bringing their own “gods” with them.

8 July 2009
at 11:39 a.m.

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AreUNorml (Anonymous) says…

Just so you know Tom.. I'm a godless centrist who believes in personal freedom. I don't need a mullah or cleric to tell me how to live, just as I don't need the government telling me.

Once I discovered that anyone can talk to God, I was able to unmask the entire charade very quickly.
8 July 2009
at 11:40 a.m.

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TomShewmon (Tom Shewmon) says…

Thank god ObamaCo doesn't start up with doing things for selfish ends……drunken power grabs and all that other stuff that.
8 July 2009
at 11:41 a.m.

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TomShewmon (Tom Shewmon) says…

I mean: “…all that other stuff like that.”
8 July 2009
at 11:46 a.m.

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TomShewmon (Tom Shewmon) says…

And likewise, a spirit-filled Christian doesn't need you or any other godless, ehem, “centrist” or far-left zealot telling them what they can say and where they can say it–—or write it, or plaster it on a wall or put up in a glass case or whatever. And the “government telling you” ??? Surely you jest. They “tell” you what to do practically every minute of every hour of every day of your life, and it's getting critically worse since January.
8 July 2009
at 11:46 a.m.

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djneibarger (Anonymous) says…

i didn't realize that not believing in ridiculous superstitions and fairy tales made me a “godless far-left zealot”.
very cool. can i get that on a t-shirt?
8 July 2009
at 11:47 a.m.

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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…

porch_person, while we're generally in agreement, I have to take issue with part of your last statement. Perhaps I'm mincing words here, but I don't think *and* religion is “protected.” The moment you protect one, you're showing favoritism.

“Congress shall make no law.”

No law prohibiting, no law protecting, no law promoting, no law increasing, no law reducing, no law reorganizing, no law adjusting.

“No law”… period.

On the other hand, we've been shown that you really don't need Congress to make a fumbling grab towards religious fascism; after all, Alabama's Roy Moore wasn't a legislator—he was Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court.
8 July 2009
at 11:51 a.m.

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Satirical (Anonymous) says…

Porch_person…

I agree that in America all religions are protected, which is one of the great things about our country.

However, even though the framers of the U.S. Constitution didn’t choose a national religion, they did not prohibit states from choosing a state religion. In fact several states had a state religion.
8 July 2009
at 11:52 a.m.

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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…

Gotta appreciate the irony of right_thinker drooling over “far-left zealots… breaking out in hives,” while he once again trips over his own fingers to grab the keyboard and pound out four posts in 10 minutes… another feverish round of mental masturbation for our resident political rage porn addict.

Sad sad sad… and quite ironic…

8 July 2009
at 11:52 a.m.

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Satirical (Anonymous) says…

Calliope877…
“but it's presumptious to think they were referencing the Christian idea of a creator considering the fact immigrants to the country were bringing their own “gods” with them.”

When did I say they were referencing the Christian idea of a creator in the Declaration of Independence?
8 July 2009
at 11:53 a.m.

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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…

oops… typo @ 11:47am…

*and* ––-> *any*

sorry 'bout that!
8 July 2009
at 11:54 a.m.

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djneibarger (Anonymous) says…

i've checked myself over with a hand mirror, but i can't find these “hives” you speak of. have any of the other godless zealots here found any? does inspecting my own butt for hives make me a godless homosexual?
gee, if only i had some scripture to tell me what to think.
8 July 2009
at 11:58 a.m.

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djneibarger (Anonymous) says…

i thought i found a hive, but it was just a bug bite.
probably from some godless far-left zealous mosquito. i betcha it was.
and i bet he had hives. or cooties.
do godless zealots get cooties?
or just the godless homosexuals?
8 July 2009
at 11:59 a.m.

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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…

Good reading and discussion here… imho, the absolute best web site on all things related to the Constitution. The link below takes you directly to some thoughts on religion and the Constitution:

http://www.usconstitution.net/constto…

Satirical, they even mention the “state religion” movement, that you contributed earlier. Good call!
8 July 2009
at noon

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porch_person (Anonymous) says…

Agnostick,

I'm not sure of what you're referring to. I'm going to use the sentence of mine that had “protected” in it as a base.

“In America, all religions are protected.” – porch_person

If I understand your post, I think we are in complete agreement on the Constitution and on the observation that some in the population desire to subvert the Constitution in the name of their particular brand of deism.

In my understanding, if you are native American and desire to take peyote as a part of your religious ceremony, that is protected. If you don't believe in God, that is protected. If you want to worship Satan, that is protected. If you want to place the Peace after the Eucharist and right before the (insert ritual here), it's protected. I think we are in agreement on that.

Unfortunately, this freedom can lead to things like mail order “Doctorates of Divinity” but that's the price we pay for avoiding the “evil” of religious persecution. A price I'm happy to pay. I think the framers were remarkable people.
8 July 2009
at 12:07 p.m.

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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…

Awright porch, let's call it a day and retreat to the beverages. ;)

Satirical, this one's for you…

http://blogs.salon.com/0002874/storie…

Funny, but “Version 1” is actually the serious one.
8 July 2009
at 12:14 p.m.

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AreUNorml (Anonymous) says…

Tom Says: “And the “government telling you” ??? Surely you jest. They “tell” you what to do practically every minute of every hour of every day of your life, and it's getting critically worse since January.”
******************
trust me, i'm no fan of this new power grab by the gov't. and I'm not a fan of the architects of this plan either. so, yes.. Centrist.. Libertarian to be precise. just wanted you to be aware that not all athiests are part of the leftist agenda.

8 July 2009
at 12:19 p.m.

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djneibarger (Anonymous) says…

ooooohhhhhhhhh, the “leftist agenda”!! :o
please tell me that involves hives!
please please please please please please please!!!
8 July 2009
at 12:24 p.m.

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Satirical (Anonymous) says…

Agnostick…

Dang, it looks like I am headed to North Dakota then…
8 July 2009
at 12:40 p.m.

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sfjayhawk (Anonymous) says…

God just called, and she is very pissed off. She is most displeased with rabid, so-called christians who use their twisted interpretation of her words as an excuse for bigotry and hate. She also is quite amused that a 'Hobby Lobby' advertisement is being confused as 'divine providence' when it is actually a sales pitch aimed at people that stopped thinking for themselves long ago - turns out that Hobby Lobby knows that these people are easy prey for god branding.
8 July 2009
at 1:08 p.m.

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TomShewmon (Tom Shewmon) says…

I think this is all misplaced anger about the death of MJ and probably some Palin thrown in there too. Shoot, some are even brooding about Bush. You godless ones will be OK. ObamaCo is pondering stimulusing us all again. He's cleaning up the air with cap and trade, fine-tuning the auto industry and banking industry and making bestest friends with nations around the globe. Things are coming up roses. And don't worry about what god thinks–he's given us all a free ticket. God is letting us all do as we please, and he/she is just doing what he/she does. Also, I find that extra strength cortizone cream is best for hives. Also, Claritin or some OTC allergy pills will help with the hive outbreaks. At any rate, don't let this LTE ruin your day. Progressives are on the march and coming to your aid.
8 July 2009
at 1:11 p.m.

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jimmyjms (Anonymous) says…

“Oh, for pete's sake, why are you people being so nitpicky about this?”

Because Ms. Keel, much like yourself, seems to have missed the point entirely. “Twisted thinking about the First Amendment”??? I have difficulty believing that Ms. Keel has read or understands the First Amendment.

Here's some fun quotes!

“I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved— the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!” - John Adams

“The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity.” - John Adams

“”I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.” - Thomas Jefferson

“Lighthouses are more helpful than churches.” - Ben Franklin

“”I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.” - Thomas Paine
8 July 2009
at 1:21 p.m.

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75x55 (Anonymous) says…

For the ignorant - just for fun and light reading, go read some Jaffa - it'll do you good.
8 July 2009
at 1:35 p.m.

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porch_person (Anonymous) says…

75X55,

I'm sure Mr. Harry V. Jaffa would advise you that it assists the reader to provide links, titles, and a full name.

I'm also sure that Mr. Jaffa would direct you to review the United States Constitution, a document that you swore to defend when you entered the military before you call others ignorant.

I bet you've never read Jaffa. You're just name dropping to recover from your earlier stupidity.
8 July 2009
at 2:12 p.m.

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logicsound09 (Anonymous) says…

“Perhaps 75x55's point was that our Nation was founded largely based on religious liberty, and the Declaration of Independence references a Creator.

Therefore, belief in a God is relevant to Independence day since our creation of a nation and our independence was substantially influenced by a divine being.”

––––-

Well, first of all, 75x55 didn't have a point. He merely was being contrary.

But yes, the Declaration does mention a “Creator”, which could be a Deist creator, or an Episcopalian creator, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster creator. The point wasn't belief in God, but freedom of religion (freedom from oppression, as I already noted).

The letter writer referenced an “Almighty God” guiding authors of the Declaration, when that wasn't the root of the need for the document. They didn't write it so that they could worship “Almighty God” (who was already recognized by England), but so that they were free to worship or NOT worship that specifc Almighty God.

So while the idea of *religion/faith* was a relevant factor in the need for Independence, to say that Almighty God was the reason for the Declaration is disingenuous. We can celebrate and recognize our independence without so much as a second thought about “Almighty God”.

8 July 2009
at 2:14 p.m.

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logicsound09 (Anonymous) says…

75x55 (Anonymous) says…

“For the ignorant - just for fun and light reading, go read some Jaffa - it'll do you good”

–––––-

If you're going to talk to yourself, you may as well save yourself the effort and the space on the thread and just say it directly to yourself, rather than posting it on a public forum for you to read.

Care to address my earlier question?

Or are you going to stick with your M.O.?
8 July 2009
at 2:32 p.m.

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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…

ukillaJJ (Anonymous) says…

Maybe you should re-read a couple of your history books? We didn't starting “trusting god” until the mid 50s; probably due to McCarthy-era xenophobic fear of Latin phrases such as “e pluribus unum”.

Marion wrties:

Slept through American History classes, eh?

You should read the history books you have obviously *NOT* read and hit a few of the links on this very thread.
8 July 2009
at 2:51 p.m.

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sandersen (Anonymous) says…

Couldn't resist….

“Great is the guilt of an unnecessary war”…

“The government of the United States is not in any sense founded upon the Christian religion”…

“This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it”… —John Adams

“The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”…..

“Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one-half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.” — Thomas Jefferson

They, along with countless others who founded and preserved the unity of our country, state the opposite of what so many today proselytize…. our country was not founded on a singular theological or ideological viewpoint.

Were they both terrorist/socialist/leftist wishing to destroy the foundation of our nation? Were they immoral and evil for questioning long-standing beliefs and practices? Nay, they were on virtually opposite ends of the political spectrum. Yet their differences, as well as their similarities made our foundations great.

Our country is no more going downhill or being recast than it ever was. Change and forward momentum are constant processes. Our differences give us strength, as a nation and as a world. Discussion that moves us past irrational hatred of others creates an environment ripe for the creation of solutions.

Not a frequent “re-poster”, but this stands to be repeated…
8 July 2009
at 3 p.m.

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porch_person (Anonymous) says…

I'm really enjoying reading these quotes from the founders. Excellent.
8 July 2009
at 3:25 p.m.

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KatWrangler (Anonymous) says…

Mr_Nancy_Boy_To_You (Tom Shewmon) says…

Ms. Keel, now you've gone and upset all the godless far-left zealots in Lawrence. Shame on you! They've probably all broken out in hives.
_______________

So you have to take some sort of religous pledge to be a Righty? So no one on the Right is Atheist?

LOL Sure, you go ahead and kid yourself. LOL
8 July 2009
at 3:37 p.m.

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75x55 (Anonymous) says…

You're not much of a gambler, porchie. Doesn't help that you let your personal feelings cloud your thinking.

Satirical gets it. Calliope877 missed it, by not apparently understanding the immense importance of the various religious civil wars that immediately preceded and affected the founders.

The attempts by yourself and logics to try to attached some sort of 'denomination' to the concept of God and Creator as referenced by the founders is just a tiresome exercise in denying the importance of that concept to what they accomplished.

And yes, you lose the bet with regards to Jaffa. But then, there are more folks here that could benefit by such reading - his last book on Lincoln is simply stunning.
8 July 2009
at 4:05 p.m.

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porch_person (Anonymous) says…

75X55,

It's real simple, 75X55. At 8 July 2009 at 10:13 a.m, you called Logicsound09's comment as ignorant. You mistakenly think that the Fourth of July is some sort of religious occasion.

The United States Constitution doesn't not celebrate any religion. It does not establish any religion. It does not restrict any religion. It does not prohibit any religion. That means non-deistic religions as well.

You didn't tell people who “Jaffa” was. You didn't tie him or his writings into the discussion in any relevant way. We made no bet but I did provide people with Mr. Jaffa's full name so that our readers could look him up.

You still haven't provided how Jaffa or his writings are relevant to this discussion. You've merely announced to the group that you've read a book, a book with few pictures.

Whoopee!!
8 July 2009
at 4:06 p.m.

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shockchalk (Anonymous) says…

Fisher Ames (author of the First Amendment) “Should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a schoolbook? Its morals are pure, its examples are captivating and noble…in no Book is there so good English, so pure and elegant, and by teaching all the same they will speak alike, and the Bible will justly remain the standard of language as well as of faith.”

John Adams, July 1st, 1776 “Before God, I believe the hour has come. My judgement approves this measure, and my whole heart is in it. All that I have, and all that I am, and all that I hope in this life, I am now ready to stake upon it. And I leave off as I began, that live or die, survive or perish, I am for the Declaration. It is my living sentiment, and by the blessing of God it shall be my dying sentiment. Independence now, and Independence for ever!”

Benjamin Franklin, Congressional Congress, 1787. “I have lived, sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth…that God Governs the affairs of me. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without His aid?”

Samuel Adams, 1776 “We have this day restored the Sovereign to Whom all men ought to be obedient. he reigns in Heaven and from the rising to the setting of the sun, le His kingdom come.”
Patrick Henry 1775 “It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, properity, and freedom of worship here.”

No mention of the flying spaghetti monster here and there is plenty more where this came from.

8 July 2009
at 4:21 p.m.

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porch_person (Anonymous) says…

shockchalk,

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”

That means atheism and agnosticism have just as much legitimacy as Christianity in the eyes of the United States Constitution.

By the way, can you provide us with the location of God? His mass? Any radiations he might give off or reflect? Any other physical qualities? Any characteristic which we can use to discern God from the Flying Spaghetti Monster?

And while you're at it, can you explain what “faith” is? What is the difference between “believing” in something and “knowing” something objectively?
8 July 2009
at 4:25 p.m.

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shockchalk (Anonymous) says…

George Washington “It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible.”
8 July 2009
at 4:29 p.m.

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porch_person (Anonymous) says…

shockchalk,

Are you even aware of why the founders of the United States Constitution decided to not make this a Christian nation?

Your quotes have no legal relevance in America. In fact, they are unconstitutional.

Sorry. We're not a theocracy.
8 July 2009
at 4:35 p.m.

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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…

porch… holy crap!

shockchalk shares a quote from George Washington—something Washington wrote a long time ago. Sounds like George was expressing his opinion.

And you say the quote has no legal relevance in America?

So, Washington can fight for independence and freedom… but he has no legal relevance to enjoy it?

Really, folks! The Founding Fathers were great and all that, but they were *men*!

Human… __fallible__ men!!

Ultimaltely, we're reading a bunch of opinions, and no single one has any more or less weight than the next.

But all are legally relevant under “1A”
8 July 2009
at 4:41 p.m.

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logicsound09 (Anonymous) says…

“The attempts by yourself and logics to try to attached some sort of 'denomination' to the concept of God and Creator as referenced by the founders is just a tiresome exercise in denying the importance of that concept to what they accomplished.”

––––––-

Kindly point to where I attached any denomination to the founding father's words.

In fact, my point was in taking issue with the author's use of “Almighty God”, which is far more specific than “Creator”. I was saying that the the founding fathers' word choice could have meant any number of “creator” figures, and that the importance of or driving force behind the Declaration was not the fact that they mentioned the “Creator”, but that people were inherently free. In your (and the author's) emphasis on “Creator”, you seem to have ignored the fact that the first mention in the document is the dissolving of political bonds, and that the first “self-evident” truth mentioned is the equality of man.

What they accomplished wasn't about “God” specifically, even though that, I'm sure, was an influencing factor (as one would expect when striving for religious freedom). It was about freedom (from taxation, from religious oppression, from having to worship a specific deity, etc…), and just so happened that one of the freedoms they wanted was religious freedom. It is ignorant to say that faith in Almighty God is what drove the creation of the Declaration of Independence because it was so much broader than that.
8 July 2009
at 4:42 p.m.

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cthulhu_4_president (Anonymous) says…

“And while you're at it, can you explain what “faith” is? What is the difference between “believing” in something and “knowing” something objectively?”
–––––––––—
Objective knowledge: Insight and opinion gained through replicatable experimentation, skepticism and critical thought.

Faith: Same as above, except without the replicatable experimentation, skepticism and critical thought.
8 July 2009
at 4:45 p.m.

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porch_person (Anonymous) says…

Agnostick,

Shockchalk and 75X55 wish to claim that America is a “Christian” nation. This violates the Constitution.

Legally, if you were to, say, place a big rock with a bunch of scripture on it in a lobby of a State Capitol and attempt to justify it with a quote from George Washington, you would lose the legal challenge. No doubt.

That's my point.

George Washington can express his opinion and his religious beliefs. That's what America is about. He has a legal right to enjoy the hard won Independence. I'm not criticizing George Washington's opinion, just shockchalk's use of the quote to misrepresent what the American Constitution prescribes.

It's when we take the further step of claiming that America is a “deistic” country, a “Christian” country, that we violate the Constitution.
8 July 2009
at 5:19 p.m.

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TomShewmon (Tom Shewmon) says…

Everyone have a sing-a-long and you'll feel better. Sing a song about progressivism or something. Really, you'll all feel better.

8 July 2009
at 6:49 p.m.

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Machiavelli_mania (Anonymous) says…

Which god is that again? I am never quite sure which god they are trusting these days? It just is not clear which god it is.
8 July 2009
at 6:59 p.m.

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TomShewmon (Tom Shewmon) says…

MM, I go on “In Tom I Trust”. It's the safest bet.
8 July 2009
at 7:15 p.m.

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Calliope877 (Anonymous) says…

Satirical (Anonymous) says…

Calliope877…
“but it's presumptious to think they were referencing the Christian idea of a creator considering the fact immigrants to the country were bringing their own “gods” with them.”

When did I say they were referencing the Christian idea of a creator in the Declaration of Independence?

You didn't, and I wasn't referring to you specifically. I was speaking in general terms. Sorry for the confusion.
8 July 2009
at 8:50 p.m.

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sandersen (Anonymous) says…

shockchalk-

Just for fun!

“Ecclesiastical establishments tend to great ignorance and corruption, all of which facilitate the execution of mischievous projects.”
—James Madison, letter to William Bradford, January 1774

“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded prospect.”
—James Madison, letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774

“… no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.”
—Thomas Jefferson, Virginia Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779

“Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear.”
—Thomas Jefferson, letter, 1787

“As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see, but I apprehend it has received various corrupting changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity, though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble. I see no harm, however, in its being believed, if that belief has the good consequences, as probably it has, of making his doctrines more respected and observed, especially as I do not perceive that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the unbelievers in his government of the world with any peculiar marks of his displeasure.”
—Benjamin Franklin, letter to Ezra Stiles, March 9, 1790

“All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.”
—Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794

“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church.”
—Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794

The supply is endless!
8 July 2009
at 9:14 p.m.

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TomShewmon (Tom Shewmon) says…

I have a good progressive song for you sing.

–––––––––––––––––––

O come, all ye faithful,
Joyful and triumphant,
O come ye, O come ye to Bethlehem;
Come and behold him,
Born the King of angels;
O come, let us adore him,
O come, let us adore him,
O Come, let us adore him, Christ the Lord.

God of God,
Light of Light,
Lo! He abhors not the Virgin's womb:
Very God,
Begotten, not created; Refrain

Sing, choirs of angels,
Sing in exultation,
Sing, all ye citizens of heaven above;
Glory to God
In the highest; Refrain

See how the shepherds,
Summoned to his cradle,
Leaving their flocks, draw nigh to gaze;
We too will thither
Bend our joyful footsteps; Refrain

Child, for us sinners
Poor and in the manger,
We would embrace thee, with love and awe;
Who would not live thee,
Loving us so dearly? Refrain

Yea, Lord, we greet thee,
Born this happy morning;
Jesus, to thee be glory given;
Word of the Father,
Now in flesh appearing; Refrain
8 July 2009
at 9:23 p.m.

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porch_person (Anonymous) says…

Tom,

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”

We'll let you know when we need some Christmas carols to use in creating a new Constitution. The old one works just fine, thank you.
8 July 2009
at 9:26 p.m.

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TomShewmon (Tom Shewmon) says…

Title of LTE porchie:

Nation of faith

Who's talking about congress or the constitution, you dimwit?
8 July 2009
at 9:51 p.m.

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barrypenders (Anonymous) says…

My favorite:

All around the mulberry obama
The monkey chased the weasel.
The monkey thought 'twas all in fun.
Pop! goes the weasel.

A penny for a spool of thread,
A penny for a needle.
That's the way the stimulus goes.
Pop! goes the weasel.

Up and down the City Road,
In and out of the Eagle,
That's the way the bail out goes.
Pop! goes the weasel.

Half a pound of stimulus,
Half a pound of bail out,
Mix it up and fritter it away,
Pop! goes the weasel.

8 July 2009
at 10:05 p.m.

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TomShewmon (Tom Shewmon) says…

Barry, you've got me busting a gut!!!!! hahahahahaha (to quote a former BDS suffering thread hijacker).

Thanks for the laugh!!!
8 July 2009
at 10:06 p.m.

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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…

Jesus saves!

Aluminum cans!
8 July 2009
at 10:06 p.m.

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sandersen (Anonymous) says…

Porch-

For your reading pleasure…

“'In God We Trust.' I don't believe it would sound any better if it were true.” - Mark Twain

“The trouble with theocracy is that everyone wants to be Theo.” — James Dunn

“Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet.” — Napoleon Bonaparte

“…the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State - James Madison

“Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together” - James Madison

“Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church, and the private schools, supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and the state forever separated.” - Ulysses S. Grant

“Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies.” - Thomas Jefferson

“History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government.” - Thomas Jefferson

“In no instance have … the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people.” - James Madison

” The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.” - John Adams

“As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how it has happened that millions of fables, tales, legends have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed…” -John Adams

“During fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been it its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolences in the clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution…” -James Madison

“To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say there are nothing, or that there is no soul, no angels, no god. I cannot reason otherwise…I am satisfied, sufficiently occupied with the things which are, without tormenting or troubling myself about those which may indeed be, but of which we have no evidence.” -Thomas Jefferson

“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone upon man.” -Thomas Jefferson

“The Christian God is a being of terrific character- cruel, vindictive, capricious and unjust.”
-Thomas Jefferson

Hence my general difficulty in swallowing the indolent non-logic that our founding fathers founded this nation based upon a specific religious affiliation or belief in a specific deity.
8 July 2009
at 10:51 p.m.

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tunahelper (Anonymous) says…

it don't matter, the leftist liberals are gonna burn in hell anyway, no matter what they believe in.
8 July 2009
at 11:01 p.m.

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porch_person (Anonymous) says…

Thank you, Sandersen. Interesting quotes.

*******

Tom Shewmon,

Don't know what “nation” you think the letter to the editor is referring to but any other reader can see that Ms. Keel refers to America.

The United States of America is based upon a Constitution, not the Bible. Both you and Ms. Keel should read it sometime.

It says:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”

The 1st Amendment to the US Constitution isn't “The Little Drummer Boy” or “Come, All Ye Faithful”.

No wonder you and Ms. Keel get so confused. You only listen to television preachers. Hell, for you two, the age of the Earth is probably only 8,000 years old.
8 July 2009
at 11:22 p.m.

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75x55 (Anonymous) says…

Porchie's on another tirade, facts and actual quotes be darned.

Poor porchie - looking for a horrid old fundamentalist behind every dark corner….

“You mistakenly think that the Fourth of July is some sort of religious occasion.” - Wishful projection.

“Shockchalk and 75X55 wish to claim that America is a “Christian” nation. This violates the Constitution.” - Don't know about the alleged 'Shockchalk', but this is definitely a “mischaracterization” of any comments I've ever stated. When does recognition of a 'Creator' infer the idea of “Christian nation”? Nah, porchie just bein' a Christo-phobe - again.

As regards Jaffa, I'm just dropping a hint for some folks' reading lists - there's no need to go into the specifics. As for logie's ignorance, religion (in terms of recognition of Divine Creator/God and his providence, to include natural rights, etc.) had a great deal to do with the views and actions of the Founding Fathers and the resulting 'Independence Day'. To say otherwise is indeed blatant ignorance, or plain contrarianism. Jaffa wrote some great stuff involving these ideas - worth checking out, for those that are interested in such things.

Porchie - face it, you're just letting your lesser angels get the better of you. Live and let live - you know, liberty and freedom. Smile - you'll feel better! :)
8 July 2009
at 11:29 p.m.

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sandersen (Anonymous) says…

tuna-

And here are some for you, as I deem you are so logical and well-read…

“I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.” - Susan B. Anthony

“Faith is believing something you know ain't true.” - Mark Twain

“The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.” - Benjamin Franklin

“The church says the earth is flat, but I know that it is round, for I have seen the shadow on the moon, and I have more faith in a shadow than in the church.”
—Ferdinand Magellan

“Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.”
—Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794

“The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?”
—John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

“The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter.”
—Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

“Man is fed with fables through life, and leaves it in the belief he knows something of what has been passing, when in truth he has known nothing but what has passed under his own eye.” —Thomas Jefferson, letter to Thomas Cooper, 1823

I find it amusing that those who profess themselves the followers of one they deem so very loving so often indulge their baser natures with the opportunity to threaten death and “everlasting” trauma upon any whom would dare to question or disagree with their dogma. I wish no such fate upon you, even if I believe you are incorrect. I wish all humankind well, and believe that you must find comfort where you may, and my belief should not dictate those you personally hold. Discussion and debate of such principles is healthy, for the absence of discourse leads to flocks of dullards lacking critical reasoning and logical capacity.

Question everything. Be tolerant of those who differ from you. For tolerance need not imply agreement, either in principle or in kind, yet it provides the necessary buffer for all imperfect humans to coexist and find a plane of respect on which to perch our lofty ideals in a relatively peaceful manner.
8 July 2009
at 11:40 p.m.

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porch_person (Anonymous) says…

75X55,

I smile everytime I read one of your posts. The lastest snafu declared that someone else was ignorant of the Constitution when you were unaware that the US Constitution says that we (most decidedly) are not a Christian nation.

We are a nation without a national religion and we explicitly refuse to prohibit the free exercise of any religion.

The combination of demonstrable ignorance and absolute certainty is always a guaranteed smile-generator, 75X55. Thank you!

For instance, you offer up the last name of Jaffa for no other reason than to show that you know the name of a person who writes books without pictures. Namedropping with absolutely no other purpose than to establish some sort of intellectual capability that your performance earlier in the thread destroyed.

To top it off, you attempt to claim that your reference to a “Creator” was not referring to the Christian God, an effort merely to be contradictory.

Which “Creator” were you referring to, 75X55? Allah?

And you think you're not funny? For shame. You're hilarious.

(smile)

8 July 2009
at 11:46 p.m.

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rtwngr (Anonymous) says…

So, Sanderson, are we to be convinced that a belief in God is ludicrous based on the voluminous quotes you can produce?

All of you that hold a contrary view to the existence and/or belief in a God, how can you be so sure? You are the same people that preach tolerance and freedom of speech. You live and breath diversity and how good it is for us as a people. However, let someone express a belief in God and you are ready to stone them in the courtyard.

How nice. We are such an enlightened people, aren't we?
8 July 2009
at 11:52 p.m.

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75x55 (Anonymous) says…

Poor sad porchie - you seem terribly confused. Have some coffee - it might help.
9 July 2009
at 12:16 a.m.

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porch_person (Anonymous) says…

rtwngr,

Sandersen wrote a pretty nice postscript in his last post. Full of tolerance. You got “stoned” by the words of some who started this country.

You're a bit defensive. No one is impinging on your freedom of speech.

What we are reorienting you on is the content of the US Constitution, which says that you can't infringe on the freedom of others to practice (or not practice) their own religion.

People who inaccurately claim that the Constitution says this is exclusively a Christian nation are the intolerant ones.
9 July 2009
at 12:52 a.m.

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WHY (Anonymous) says…

Did you know that there is a strong inverse relationship between belief in God and level of education attained? Similar in fact to the relationship between age and belief that a fat man climbs down the chimney to deliver presents to good kids. I wonder if there is a relationship between those two sets of data. What do young people and poorly educated people have in common?
9 July 2009
at 1:19 a.m.

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jonas_opines (Anonymous) says…

“So, Sanderson, are we to be convinced that a belief in God is ludicrous based on the voluminous quotes you can “
produce?”

Maybe more that there is no reason but one to believe that a god actually exists. That reason is desire.
9 July 2009
at 6:44 a.m.

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vertigo (Jesse Crittenden) says…

The only quote that needs to be quoted as to whether or not the U.S. is a Christian nation:

The Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary.

Written in 1796, passed unanimously by the 5th Congress and signed by President John Adams.

Article XI: As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
9 July 2009
at 7:53 a.m.

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75x55 (Anonymous) says…

Can ANYONE point out where the LTE refers to “Christianity” or “Christian nation”?

No? So, this is just a lame strawman presented by the usual suspects.

Yawn. Next topic…
9 July 2009
at 8:23 a.m.

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supertrampofkansas (Anonymous) says…

….and the Constitution of the United States of America were guided by faith and trust in “Almighty God”. - Keel

Noun 1. God Almighty - terms referring to the Judeo-Christian God

Miscomprehend much 75?

9 July 2009
at 8:32 a.m.

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a_flock_of_jayhawks (Anonymous) says…

Be careful in your praise of Hobby Lobby, Ms. Keel. You may not be aware that they donate to Westboro Baptist Church. If you did know that and fully support it, shame on you. If you didn't know, well, I think your LTE gives some clear clues as to why.
9 July 2009
at 8:40 a.m.

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logicsound09 (Anonymous) says…

“Can ANYONE point out where the LTE refers to “Christianity” or “Christian nation”?”

–––––-

Finally we get to the bottom of 4,125's idiocy.

And regardless of the denomination of the god to which the letter writer refers, it doesn't change the fact that one should not confuse the fact that some/many of the founding fathers had belief in god for the fact that it was god that guided the necessity of the Declaration of Independence.
9 July 2009
at 8:40 a.m.

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a_flock_of_jayhawks (Anonymous) says…

Ms. Keel says,
“On this July 4, 2009, it is appropriate that we are reminded and that the authors of Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States of America were guided by faith and trust in Almighty God. What an example our early leaders set for us to follow!”

It would also be appropriate to put what you say in context. At that time, people were getting burned at the stake and ostracized for the mere suspicion that they might not be subscribers to the faith. Just to save their hide, one had to make proclamations of faith that, given an environment of true freedom to profess otherwise might not have been made.
9 July 2009
at 8:45 a.m.

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Daytrader23 (Anonymous) says…

Before “In God we Trust” was printed on dollars, the 13 colonies used to print “To counterfeit is Death” on pounds, not dollars. So America was first “In the Death Penalty we trust” before they changed it to “In God we Trust”. Which is basically the same meaning. Death of independent, free will thinking.
9 July 2009
at 8:58 a.m.

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WHY (Anonymous) says…

Hobby Lobby donates to Fred “I hate gay people” Phelps??? If this is true Lawrence should run Hobby Lobby out of town.
9 July 2009
at 9:11 a.m.

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Daytrader23 (Anonymous) says…

Saying the U.S is a nation of faith and having the death penalty is a bit hypocritical dont you think?
9 July 2009
at 10:56 a.m.

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75x55 (Anonymous) says…

Looks like nothing stands in the way of some to indulge in their persecution fantasies involving “fundies”.
9 July 2009
at 11:30 a.m.

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Agnostick (Anonymous) says…

Saw this, and I immediately thought of this thread, this discussion…

Hint: The background…

http://www.youtube.com/user/iNewsNetw…

9 July 2009
at 12:15 p.m.

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altarego (Anonymous) says…

You know, this would be an excellent discussion to have over wangs and beer at the new Hooters on the SLT!
9 July 2009
at 10:17 p.m.

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rtwngr (Anonymous) says…

Vertigo, I'll see your quote of John Adams and give you another: “[W]e have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion… . Our constitution was made for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” - John Adams

“[I]t is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. Religion and virtue are the only foundations … of republicanism and of all free governments.” - John Adams

That's two. How many more do you want?
9 July 2009
at 11:07 p.m.

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sandersen (Anonymous) says…

Great fun, rtwnger…

“The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles?”
— John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 1815

“Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”
— John Adams, “A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America” (1787-88)

“We should begin by setting conscience free. When all men of all religions … shall enjoy equal liberty, property, and an equal chance for honors and power … we may expect that improvements will be made in the human character and the state of society.”
— John Adams, letter to Dr. Price, April 8, 1785

“As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?”
— John Adams, letter to FA Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816

“The frightful engines of ecclesiastical councils, of diabolical malice, and Calvinistical good-nature never failed to terrify me exceedingly whenever I thought of preaching.”
— John Adams, letter to his brother-in-law, Richard Cranch, October 18, 1756

“I shall have liberty to think for myself without molesting others or being molested myself.”
— John Adams, letter to his brother-in-law, Richard Cranch, August 29, 1756

“When philosophic reason is clear and certain by intuition or necessary induction, no subsequent revelation supported by prophecies or miracles can supersede it.”
— John Adams

“Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents.”
— John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813

“Let the human mind loose. It must be loose. It will be loose. Superstition and dogmatism cannot confine it.
“— John Adams, letter to his son, John Quincy Adams, November 13, 1816

Game on! My volley states no specific creed or ideology embraced in the founding of our nation, that ours is a nation that thrives in the face of respect for freedom of/from religion, and only the foolhardy believes their belief system is the only acceptable means of experiencing human life in a meaningful, fruitful fashion.
10 July 2009
at 6:57 a.m.

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vertigo (Jesse Crittenden) says…

rtwngr- I didn't quote John Adams. I quoted the Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli of Barbary.

An official U.S. treaty that was passed by Congress and signed by John Adams.

I think official U.S. documents weigh more than speculation as to what someone was thinking.
10 July 2009
at 8:11 a.m.

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jonas_opines (Anonymous) says…

“Can ANYONE point out where the LTE refers to “Christianity” or “Christian nation”?

No? So, this is just a lame strawman presented by the usual suspects.”

Now you're just being a damned fool. Or, alternatively, you're cynically and hypocritically throwing up a strawman while yelping about other people doing it.

You are a large part of the usual suspects. And it is absolutely obvious that the letter is referring to Christianity, in the same way as the advertisement was.

Stop making a fool out of yourself. It doesn't become you at all.
10 July 2009
at 8:13 a.m.

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Made_in_China (Paul R. Getto) says…

Hmmmmmm…….the usual rants from the peanut gallery. Apparently, the concept of a 'loving god' brings out the best in people. Fortunately, all the major religions teach the same thing—the golden rule. If we can accept this principle, we can get along. Sadly, this is the hardest rule to follow for most of us. If one thinks about it, law in general is based on this principle. If, for example, I want to throw rocks in my yard, so what? When, however, I decide to throw the rock into your yard or at your person, it's now illegal. On this principal all personal and property laws are based.

Christian: “And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise” (Holy Bible, King James Version, St. Luke 6:31).
Jewish: “what is hateful to yourself do not do to your fellow man” (Babylonian Talmud, Shabbath 31a).
Muslim: “No man is a true believer unless he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself” (Hadith, Muslim, imam 71-72).
Buddhist: “Hurt not others with that which pains yourself.” (Udanavarga, v. 18).
Hindu: “Let not any man do unto another any act that he wisheth not done to himself by others” (Mahabharata, Shanti Parva, cclx. 21).
Confucian: “Do no do to others what you would not want them to do to you” (Analects, Book xii, #2).
PS: Note the last example. Much of Jefferson's philosophy, and some of our principles of governance, were based on Confucian writings.
10 July 2009
at 9:14 a.m.

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barrypenders (Anonymous) says…

Through out time those progressive people will do and say anything to influence others. Now, hopefully, the progressive stimulus Obama is around to save mankind.. His change will bailout everybody and the idea that no free lunch will not apply during his printing of money is something to bank on.
14 July 2009
at 9:04 a.m.

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Doubting_Thomas (Anonymous) says…

For all those Christians out there who claim that this is a Christian nation, please name one founding document which specifically mentions Jesus, and states that this country is based on belief in him?