Archive for Sunday, March 16, 2008

Stuck in time?

Architects debate look of Lawrence buildings

Dennis Domer, a retired Kansas University architecture professor, points out some of the good examples of contemporary architecture at Fire Station 5 at 19th and Iowa streets. Domer likes the natural lighting that the abundance of windows supplies.

Dennis Domer, a retired Kansas University architecture professor, points out some of the good examples of contemporary architecture at Fire Station 5 at 19th and Iowa streets. Domer likes the natural lighting that the abundance of windows supplies.

March 16, 2008

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The location has grown into a forgettable one - or at least, one that most would like to forget.

Particle boards cover the windows of the former sandwich shop, and weathered shake shingles hang loosely from the side of the bygone bar The Crossing. Perhaps the most interesting feature of the site are the hundreds of scrawlings - "Hail Mary," "Booze Wahzee" and many others that don't go into a family newspaper. They cover the split siding and decking of the tavern that once was busier than Fraser Hall.

But when Dennis Domer - the associate dean emeritus of the Kansas University School of Architecture - sees the site at 12th and Indiana streets, he sees something much different. He sees the premier architectural site in all of Lawrence.

Signs of money flow by it at all hours of the day as students and faculty traverse the crazy corner to get to the adjacent university. The location is perfectly positioned between a busy neighborhood and prime gathering spots such as the Kansas Union and KU Alumni Center.

But mainly what the site has is the high ground. It towers over the community and offers one of the few locations left to transform the city's skyline.

In short, it is a hill awaiting a beacon.

Soon it will have one. The Oread Inn, a seven-story hotel and condo development, will occupy the hilltop, and in the process will become one of the larger private buildings constructed in recent memory. A true signature building in the community.

Domer is fine with all that. You won't find him fighting to save the buildings of Yello Sub or The Crossing. A first-class hotel on the edge of campus makes a world of sense, he said.

The problem, Domer says, is it's the wrong beacon.

The hotel is designed in an older style, with traditional throwbacks to classic architectural forms. Undoubtedly, to lots of people that sounds pretty good. But not to Domer, and he doesn't think it should sound good to a community that wants to tout itself as one of the better-educated, more forward-looking cities in the country.

"You can't have a progressive city if you don't look progressive," Domer said. "No one is going to come here for English Colonial and neoclassical architecture. No one is going to see that and believe we're progressive."

Domer said the hotel project represented an outstanding opportunity to build a "building of our time." Something that doesn't look back to Greece or Rome for its inspirations but rather grabs the here-and-now and molds it into an edifice. He thought the building should have had modern lines, been narrower at its base, and - here's the real kicker - taller. It should have been a true tower-like structure that would have rivaled the Campanile and Dyche Hall. The third piece of an architectural trinity, of sorts, atop Mt. Oread.

Paul Werner - a Lawrence-based architect who helped design the project - respects Domer. The Fritzel family, who is behind the development of the hotel, even made some design changes to the building at the urging of Domer and KU Architecture Dean John Gaunt. But here's what Werner also knows about this community: If the developers had tried to put a tall, modern tower on the site, the response would have been predictable.

"They would have killed us," Werner said.

Domer doesn't dispute that. In fact, the major opposition to the current design was that it was too tall. Historic preservationists argued it should be shorter, something Domer thinks would have made it worse.

So the solution, Domer said, is simple. He's no longer trying to change the design of The Oread Inn, which already has been approved by the City Commission. Instead, he's trying to change a city's mindset.

"We are in real need of architecture education in this city," Domer said.

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The problem with Lawrence architecture could be summed up this way: John Haskell is dead, and Wescoe Hall is very much still with us.

Haskell was the famed 19th-century Lawrence architect who designed the Douglas County Courthouse, parts of the Statehouse and many of the area's most significant buildings of the era as the state architect.

Wescoe Hall, of course, is KU's ode to 1970s, concrete architecture - a major classroom building near the center of campus whose appearance has been nearly universally panned for about 40 years.

Domer doesn't think Lawrence has gotten over either Haskell or Wescoe. Domer said community members - but particularly developers - have fallen in love with the renowned style of Haskell and are afraid that anything modern will come off as bad as Wescoe.

"We need to get beyond Wescoe and any other terrible building that is out there," Domer said. "We have to realize that bad buildings come in all architectural styles and expressions."

When it comes to Haskell, Domer said developers need to realize they aren't paying homage to him by trying to imitate him.

"His buildings are signature buildings of his time," Domer said. "We need to really do the best of our time."

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But let's not kid ourselves here, Domer says. This isn't all about the love of a particular style. It is much more about money.

"We have this small cadre of builders in town who are also our developers," Domer said. "They have a certain view of stylistic expression that they believe sells. So, in some ways we're sort of hijacked."

Domer said he wants to open up a dialogue with developers about how contemporary architecture could work in this community. Several architects and developers said they're open to that. Bo Harris - who built and developed the Hobbs Taylor Lofts downtown, among other projects - said he's open to more contemporary design but isn't sure it always fits with the regulatory climate in Lawrence or the public demand.

"I kind of feel like the opinion of the community lends itself to more of a traditional architecture, especially in downtown Lawrence," Harris said.

Dan Sabatini, a Lawrence-based architect, said he's also a fan of contemporary architecture and thinks it would sell in Lawrence. He thinks it would sell. In other words, it is not a proven commodity, and that makes a big difference in the development world.

"People respond to what they know," Sabatini said. "Developers are taking a lot of risks when they do a project, and they justifiably want to limit their risks. Doing a traditional design is one way they feel like they may be able to limit their risks."

That's why Sabatini said most of the contemporary architecture in Lawrence has been done by public institutions - fire stations, churches, campus buildings - that don't have to worry about finding tenants.

Plus, no one should fall into the trap of thinking developers are dumb. The ones who make money don't make a habit out of giving the public something it doesn't want.

"There are a lot of things that people can relate to in a traditional style," said Werner, who said he also personally is a fan of contemporary architecture. "When you start to do something too new - Lawrence doesn't always do too well with new stuff - people can get nervous."

Werner said the hotel project is a good example of how traditional plays well. He said despite the objections from some members of the architecture community, many lay people said they liked the design. Indeed, the project received strong support from the surrounding neighborhood.

But Domer said that doesn't necessarily make it good architecture. He said to simply suggest all architecture is subjective is a red herring that "sweeps 4,000 years of architecture history under the rug."

Domer, though, said he recognizes that good architecture can't be imposed. He's not proposing that the city create any new regulations governing the architectural design of buildings. In fact, he thinks city regulations sometimes get in the way of the open discussions that often spark great designs. That's why he just wants to talk.

"I admit to property rights," Domer said. "But can't we have a discussion? Maybe we can change each other's minds."

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It would be an interesting discussion because for Domer - a man who keeps office hours at the Bourgeois Pig and carries a sketch pad like other men carry a Palm Pilot - architecture is far more than beauty and buildings. It's like the rings on a tree. It is society's marker that tells future generations what our time was like.

Today's architecture - with some exceptions - tells a forlorn tale, he said. He said the lack of modernity is a sign of the community failing to connect with the intellectual ideas of the university.

But mainly, he said, Lawrence's architecture says a lot about something community leaders spend a lot of time discussing - our vision.

"It seems like it says we are stuck," Domer said. "We are interested in the status quo. It makes it look that we're afraid to take advantage of all that we have before us."

Comments

akuna 7 years, 4 months ago

We are stuck and it is truly sad. Architecture, like art, politics, and every aspect of our lives represents what we believe in, what we dream for, what obstacles we want to overcome. And right now in Lawrence and, for the most part, the rest of the America, we don't want to face today's obstacles and challenges. We are apathetic and relying on the past. It's sad that we can't look to now and the future to build a new and better life for ourselves and our children.

Richard Heckler 7 years, 4 months ago

Nothing wrong with the contemporary. Build it to LEED specifications.... does not need to be certified just follow LEED rules to the letter.

Make the buiilding self sustaining... add new powerful solar panels to the roof.

Build Oread Inn to last at least 200 years.

Put more windows in new contemporary buildings for ambiance and daylight for energy savings.

I'm with Dan Sabatini and Bo Harris. Harris recently completed a modern look project at 18th& Broadway(KCMO) and it looks awful...that's the customers fault.

Big cities are transforming older solid contemporary structures into luxury living quarters in the rehab of their downtowns. I'd say contemporary is still okay.

Use pervious concrete... when it rains or thaws it drains thus reducing stormwater control costs. Sinks into the ground. http://www.perviouspavement.org/benefits,%20economic.htm

This luxury upscale project should fly on it's own and be truly private. No to TIF assistance...go directly to the bank.

Just because speculators purchase property does not guarantee that construction will be allowed for it is NOT the duty of the taxpayer or local government to maximize profits for speculators.

introversion 7 years, 4 months ago

As for the Crossing being forgettable, or a location that people would like to forget, I'd argue for the years and years worth of students and previous students who can't or won't remember that intersection any other way. I wasn't an incredibly frequent patron of the Crossing, but I thought it was a unique and clever addition to the landscape in the area...

unlike a hotel.

Write2Know 7 years, 4 months ago

I'd be curious to see a sketch of what Domer would like the building to look like.

Richard Heckler 7 years, 4 months ago

Initially there is no doubt in my mind that the Sub and The Crossing brought in plenty of tax revenue over the years and likely did so without corporate welfare. The Sub and The Crossing carried their weight in production of tax revenue.

average 7 years, 4 months ago

Good architecture (my opinion) is responsive and integrates into its environment. Unfortunately, the dominant cultural motif of the last 60 years is the freeway offramp and the parking lot. Our buildings just reflect that. A building like the courthouse is designed to be interesting and scaled for a pedestrian culture. To make a "monument" today, you have to build something like the Sprint Center, a grand-scale cartoon that is eye-catching at 55 miles per hour.

But, hey... look at that Tuscan-style stripmall!

justthefacts 7 years, 4 months ago

Contemporary gets old too, you know? When erecting a structure meant to last for a century or longer, the style is bound to become dated eventually. Unless - you go with a classic. That is one reason to avoid the fad looks that come and go, and stick with a look that has stood up to the test of time in terms of popular appreciation. Point in case - the Venetian in Las Vegas. While other glass boxes or new-age looking places are popular there for awhile, the Venetian continues to look fresh and be able to charge more then places built around the same time frame.

Don't listen to those "professionals" who are tired of giving people what they like or want - who want to push the envelope and show off their skills. If you are building something to attract people, make it something with a beauty that is timeless and appreciated by the masses of people who know what they like. Despite what some expert tells them about their taste.

Yabut 7 years, 4 months ago

Architectually, I'd take the the look of a building like the courthouse over one like the new fire station any day. You want to build only modern? Go take a look at Topeka. That's what they did in the 60's after the tornado hit. They built "modern", and now the buildings all look the same....straight boxes with no architectual interest whatsoever. Ugly! New buildings built downtown or near the university SHOULD blend in with those already in existence.

cormaney 7 years, 4 months ago

Love our college town. Although, how the subjective views of local academics make front page news is confusing and a little sad. There are surely countless numbers of people sipping coffee and scribbling in pads that have the time to posture and opinionate on anything, while risking nothing. Intellectual ideas are cheap when set against the costs and efforts of actually constructing a building that is to be functional, economically successful, and an architectual example.

Centerville 7 years, 4 months ago

As technology and tastes progress, 2008-style architecture will become dated almost immediately. And then will we have to go through a lot of sentimental silliness to tear the wretched thing down?

SofaKing 7 years, 4 months ago

We are fortunate to have a person like Mr. Domer to bring this conversation out in the public and to educate people. I only have an appreciation for architecture, not a degree, but I believe this dialogue is long overdue.

The Bella Serra is laughably out of place. It sits right smack next to the road, with nothing substantial to soften its screaming pleas to "Look At Me." It is hideous, frankly. Where's the charm? While the developer has undoubtedly heard positive feedback, I have not yet met one person who thinks it looks good.

Let the dialogue begin. Where's the charm? When our relatives come to town, what buildings do we drive by to show off our lovely Lawrence? O, Frank Lloyd Wright, where are you when we need you?

George_Braziller 7 years, 4 months ago

Modern or traditional. Neither one is always good or bad. I think that the Lawrence Arts Center and the Community Health Building are two examples of really bad modern architecture. They both look like minimum security prisions/airport terminals. By the same token, I'm also not wild about the fake 19th century construction on the west side of the 600 block of Mass. or the bank on the northwest corner of 9th and Mass. They both try too hard to be something that they aren't and never will be.

justthefacts 7 years, 4 months ago

Go with architechts that have actually sold/built buildings that have pleased the majority of people for longer then a few years. It's fine to teach students the theories and to postulate about new directions. But just as Renoir had to learn when painting, if you don't please enough people with your style, you won't eat. The masses may not be as educated, but they know what they like. And as long as they pay the bills (thru taxes or attendance etc) they are the ones who should get to set the style agenda. Not some ivory tower professor who is tired of the same old things.

BigPrune 7 years, 4 months ago

You have to think about what kind of people will want to move into the hotel/condo project. Chances are the people buying a condo will be old and rich. Old and rich means more conservative. Modern is a big risk, but I totally see Mr. Warner's assessment - politically better for more conservative - it's hard enough as it is to get anything built in this town. Too many bullies at the bully pulpit come approval time.

What the City should really consider is doing away with zoning all together. It works in Houston, and the cost of living is much lower because property is less expensive, plus a complaining neighbor might not complain at all if they get a piece of the action, which zoning prevents.

Ward 7 years, 4 months ago

Do not limit your ideas of Columbus, Indiana to the blemished images posted in the article. Was that intentional? See these sites http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbus,Indiana#Architecture.26_Art http://www.columbusarchives.org/landmarks.html

They have new buildings too, but I cannot locate them on the interwebs.

coool 7 years, 4 months ago

Cool,

Can you please place a link of a design or a sketch that you like for the 12th & Indiana intersection.

I've only read your complaints about the design but never any ideas that would make it better.

Please enlighten me on your intellectual intelligence.

Thanks, Coool

Richard Heckler 7 years, 4 months ago

Take the county courthouse as a model and put some more daylight into it,build to LEED specs,solar power it, landscape with kansas ornamnetal grasses,hard wood trees, shrubs,perennials,large rocks where lawn space might be and get on with it. Forget the lawns because they do not make dollars or sense. Build sidewalks and parking spaces with pervious concrete.

Sigmund 7 years, 4 months ago

its_getting_warmer (Anonymous) says: "Unlike the endless mindless pointless rants from nimrods like Merrill and Cool, this was a good article to read and ponder."

I was thinking exactly the same thing, Chad Lawhorn did a great job with this article. The only complaint I have is that it's a shame wasn't written 6 months ago. Quotes I found worth pondering:

"The hotel is designed in an older style, with traditional throwbacks to classic architectural forms. Undoubtedly, to lots of people that sounds pretty good. But not to Domer, and he doesn't think it should sound good to a community that wants to tout itself as one of the better-educated, more forward-looking cities in the country."

"You can't have a progressive city if you don't look progressive," Domer said. "No one is going to come here for English Colonial and neoclassical architecture. No one is going to see that and believe we're progressive."

"His (Haskell's) buildings are signature buildings of his time," Domer said. "We need to really do the best of our time."

"There are a lot of things that people can relate to in a traditional style," said Werner, who said he also personally is a fan of contemporary architecture. "When you start to do something too new - Lawrence doesn't always do too well with new stuff - people can get nervous."

Prof. Domer comments are a welcome breath of fresh air and has given me hope that there are leaders in this Community who are actually progressive and forward thinking. For far too long Lawrence has been dominated by political figures who are "Progressive" in name only.

emu 7 years, 4 months ago

Stuck in the status quo ... well, that's Kansas, right?

The proposed hotel is ugly and ridiculous, like so many buildings built in the Southwest ... and by the way, Kansas is becoming part of the Southwest. That's why you have armadillos now as desertification proceeds. This sort of building looks like something from Texas or Saudi Arabia. Pretentious and slightly ludicrous. It doesn't look traditional. It looks like some developer's interpretation of traditional with cheaper materials. You want to see a great modern traditional building? Google the Hale Library at Kansas State U. I love that building. Yeah, the stone work must have cost a fortune, but it is a building built to last a century or more.

But most of the "contemporary" stuff pictured on this site today reeks of Kansas to me ... boring. It all looks so ... so Lutheran, or maybe Methodist.

You're a college town, and the only den of free-thinking people in a state that politically, religiously and socially is more like Afghanistan than anywhere in the United States. You should be puttin' up all kinds of really wild-ass buildings. Unfortunately, these decisions are made mostly by your local real-estate/development industry. You get the buildings you get because of that, just as your state's social welfare policies are those that look good to small-town merchants and rich right-wingers. The public, as usual, is damned.

Sigmund 7 years, 4 months ago

emu (Anonymous) says: "You want to see a great modern traditional building? Google the Hale Library at Kansas State U. I love that building."

I couldn't help myself, I looked. Traditional, yes, but modern? It looks more Lutheran or Methodist (with a touch of 1940's Masonic Lodge) to me than anything put up in Lawrence recently. KSU is a college town but I hardly see this as "free-thinking" or a "really wild-ass building." http://www.city-data.com/picfilesc/picc30013.php

emu (Anonymous) says:You should be puttin' up all kinds of really wild-ass buildings. Unfortunately, these decisions are made mostly by your local real-estate/development industry."

Not exactly, the real-estate/development community is forced to craft their proposals so the "progressives" in this community like cool and Merrill don't blow a gasket. Our building and zoning codes combined with "historic districts" are so restrictive virtually anything that doesn't look like the 60's (1960's or 1860's, your choice) is immediately condemned, DOA, and wasted effort.

emu (Anonymous) says: "You get the buildings you get because of that, just as your state's social welfare policies are those that look good to small-town merchants and rich right-wingers."

I don't see the connection between social welfare policies and Lawrence architecture, but our "small-town" merchants could hardly be called "right-wing." Unless by that you mean soaking the taxpayers for a never ending amount of corporate welfare designed to keep out competition, pay for the upkeep and improvements of their buildings, and then hiding their identities behind private business partnerships and corporations so that they will not be held to account for their hypocrisy and greed by the public.

George_Braziller 7 years, 4 months ago

A drive through 6th and Wakarusa (or anywhere south from the intersection) reminds me of ...... hmmmm, Omaha? Tulsa? Wichita? Minneapolis? Denver? Go to any of these cities and you will see the same boring beige commercial and residential developments that are wanting to look like something that they aren't.

Tom McCune 7 years, 4 months ago

Many of the most interesting cities have a mix of architectural styles.

Prior to the 1950s, most buildings in New York, were heavy masonry buildings with traditional fenestration and "punched" windows. This created a streetscape that was dense and oppressive. In a whole city consisting of buildings like that, one elegant glass International Style building like Lever House by Gordon Bunshaft created a welcome relief. However, after a few decades, everybody woke up and many of the old masonry buildings were gone, now replaced by a whole city of glass box "flash cube" buildings. This created a different kind of monotony and oppression.

Best to allow a mix of styles to evolve over time:.

George_Braziller 7 years, 4 months ago

I think it should be called Bella Sorry. The first time I saw it was last November when I was driving to a dentist appointment (the first time after my dentist moved out to souless Wakarusa). I was driving west on 15th, came up the hill and thought it was the most hideous thing that I had ever seen. It reminded me of a steamboat that you would expect to see at Disneyworld. But then I drove a bit further and saw that the southwest side was even worse. Yikes!!!

hawgforyou 7 years, 4 months ago

Professor Domer has been the conscience of our community for many years as far as the built environment is concerned. It is good to have him back here looking around and commenting after his lengthy exile to Kentucky.

Perhaps this could be a regular feature of the LJW.

canttakeitanymore 7 years, 4 months ago

Thanks Chad. Good Article. I was beginning to wonder if Cool got a job - glad to know he hasn't gone anywhere.

Is it me or is the sentiment that a modern building isn't what most people would want?

PS.. it would be nice to focus on the article instead of rereading all of the Oread info :-)

Sigmund 7 years, 4 months ago

I would like to draw your attention to user "cool" posts. Often he copies his previous comments or other users posts verbatim, or posts irrelevant links, or mere sentence fragments, for the purposes of "bumping" the story to the "most discussed" list. As a result of this behavior he obscures or buries the contributions of other users and suppresses other stories from the "most discussed" list. This is the electronic equivalent of a bully shouting down others to dominate a conversation and to drown out the opinions of others.

The article, "Stuck in time" is an example of this abusive posting behavior. Of the 69 comments on this story 35 of those are from user "cool," as are 17 of the last 20 posts! If each additional post had significant original content I wouldn't have a problem, but many of the posts are sentence fragments, or cut-n-paste of previous comments, or duplicate links to an outside website which do not further the discussion and add little of value to the discussion. At the very least many of these posts, with a little thought, could have been combined into a single post. It is obvious the only purpose of such a posting behavior is to simply bump the story and is down right annoying. http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2008/mar...

The LJW terms of service state "We retain the right to revoke access privileges ... if such user is deemed a problem to either the site or its other users." While I do not wish "cool" to be banned from posting, I would urge you take what action you feel necessary to limit his abusive posting. http://www2.ljworld.com/contact/comments/

not_dolph 7 years, 4 months ago

Sigmund could have infinity posts for all I care...they aren't cut and paste reposts of nothingness. Thanks sigmund for commenting on what several of us have been attempting to raise awareness over for the past several months.

Oh, and cant take it...it's not just you...most people are not intrigued by so called modern design.

Come on LJW...do something about cool's fraudulent posting practices.

BigPrune 7 years, 4 months ago

The City should really consider is doing away with zoning all together. In communities without zoning the cost of living is 25% lower because property is less expensive, plus a complaining neighbor might not complain at all if they get a piece of the action, which zoning prevents.

Jayhawker1 7 years, 4 months ago

Great post Sigmund! Unfortunately sven isn't bright enough to come up with orignal comments in his posts.

I've got a link for you to see sven/cool's "work" which includes sketches ...apparently on napkins.

http://dreamgreenhomes.com/aboutus/profiles.htm

I guess all that napkin drawing gives him credibility to comment on designs of major structures?

My 3 year old can draw better than that.

Jayhawker1 7 years, 4 months ago

sven/turd

I had no idea you could print on napkins with archicad and photoshop? Maybe you're more talented than I know?

Perhaps you could try a new medium like chalk on concrete or crayons or something? That would be a step up from the crap you have posted on the web as your "work"!

Domer has good ideas...but the whole point of the "historical neighborhood" is to build something that maintains the historical integrity... Of all the people crying about the project, you'd think the self proclaimed "genius of architecture" would be against modern at that location.

Maybe you could whip something up and show it to the Fritzels? Need me to loan you a napkin?

igby 7 years, 4 months ago

Strange, shocking, puzzling and this really made me start to think about this Oread Inn.

I was doing some research on the web and stumbled across the famous "Nostradamus Quatrains".

I had heard a lot of talk about these Quatrains but never really look them up or even found them in any books. Never even thought about really reading any of these Quatrains for any reason. So I found them by accident the other day and started to read them.

In Century 6 Quatrain 16, I saw the most shocking lines.

It mentions the "HAWKS". Could this mean the Jayhawks? I wondered.

It mentions the "Blackwoods". If your new to Lawrence, you may not know about the "Blackwoods or Black Forrest. Its the area between Kasold street and Clinton Lake. Before Developers built houses there it was know for many years to be the "Blackwoods" or Black Forrest.

It mentions the word or name "Lombardy". Everyone knows that Lombardy was a famous football coach and his name is associated with football world wide.

It mentions that the "Black ones from the Black Forest will build an Inn there. ...and many young "Hawks" will be carried off. It also mentioned something that in the way of France and Picardy. What ever that means, I don't know.

You really must read this Quatrain.

Here's the link, you may have to scroll down to Quatrain: 6:16.

http://www.nostredame.info/6.html

Flap Doodle 7 years, 3 months ago

That site cool is plugging is part of river**itty. Use your own judgement if you decide to click on it without going through a site like proxify dot com.

rumor_man 7 years, 3 months ago

If anything looks dated, It has to Mr. Domers hat....and cools same posts on The Oread Inn over and over and over....

KU_Dude 7 years, 3 months ago

Dear multi poster Cool,The design has changed. You should see the latest elevations. They're nice....but I'm sure you won't like them since you weren't involved in any of the work.Please think before you post again on this forum Cool.Thanks,KU_Dude

Jayhawker1 7 years, 3 months ago

Sven will need to see those new elevations drawn on napkins. I don't thin he can relate to any other form of media...

Jayhawker1 7 years, 3 months ago

Ignorance is bliss! You must be a happy princess!You don't know what you're talking about...as usual.I hope the whole thing gets paid for! I believe that's what I typed. But I don't expect you to be able to read it since I didn't write it on your prefered media...

rumor_man 7 years, 3 months ago

I just heard that the school district is putting a new football stadium in your backyard cool...lights and everything.Is this true?

Jayhawker1 7 years, 3 months ago

That would apply if the Hotel were ON campus...igonrance is bliss!

KU_Dude 7 years, 3 months ago

cool (Anonymous) says: from 1997 ku campus master planfrom 1997 text,"Oread Avenue should be considered limited in the capacity to carry increased traffic."-------Things can change in 11 years cool. And for the better if you just have an open mind.

Jayhawker1 7 years, 3 months ago

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