Advertisement

Letters to the Editor

Define ‘victory’

June 24, 2008

Advertisement

To the editor:

I have just listened to Mr. McCain talking on CNN and he has made the statement that he wants our troops to come home after the victory in Iraq. I have a question. What constitutes "victory" in this elusive, shadowbox "war" started by President Bush to stop Iraq's production of (what proved to be nonexistent) "weapons of mass-destruction?

World War I was concluded with the armistice signed in Marshal Foch's railway carriage at Compiegne, France.

World War II was ended (in the Pacific) by surrender terms signed by the Japanese envoy in the presence of Gen. Douglas MacArthur on the deck of the battleship USS Missouri in Tokyo Bay. The Korean "police action" is technically still going on, but was halted by agreements signed by both participants at a location on the 45th parallel. The Vietnam "War" was ended by people jumping off the roof of the U.S. Embassy onto helicopters in (what was then) Saigon.

Does Sen. McCain wish that this ill-starred oil war in Iraq end when our military representatives meet in some location where Osama Bin Laden and his cronies have come down from the mountains in Pakistan to sign an "armistice" or "surrender terms" ending the war in Iraq and Afghanistan?

I would like some of these political persons to please define to me just what constitutes a final victory in the Iraq war?

Fred Whitehead,

Lawrence

Comments

Satirical 6 years, 6 months ago

The debate about why we went into Iraq is moot, the only question that matters is why we should stay.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 6 months ago

No, Kevin, they proved that they had destroyed those weapons, of whose previous existence there must have been some proof. There is no proof that Iraq has ever had any nuclear weapons, and without that proof, basing a war on the lack of proof that something that never existed had been destroyed is just ludicrous.

jumpin_catfish 6 years, 6 months ago

OK, OK war is not the answer. So what is the answer?

beatrice 6 years, 6 months ago

"The "nonexistent" nature of Saddam's WMD has never been proven. We did not find WMD in Iraq, but that's not the same as saying they did not exist."And just because we haven't found the Loch Ness Monster, Big Foot, or fairies who hand out Klondike bars if you tickle their left ear, that doesn't prove they don't exist! They could still be out there, waiting to be discovered. Or they simply don't exist. In other words, it is impossible to prove a negative. You can't prove that mermaids don't exist, or flying saucers from outer space, or those darn Klondike bar fairies. Hell, man, even your hero and our President admitted he was wrong on the WMDs. Give it up already.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 6 months ago

"Of course you'd disagree with my post."Actually, I agreed with your post-- if somewhat sarcastically. But I wasn't being sarcastic when I said it would take a standing army of 30 million to accomplish what you want everywhere in the world. When are you enlisting?

fu7il3 6 years, 6 months ago

You can't have victory over people who want to die unless they are all dead.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 6 months ago

That was a marvelous demonstration of your inability to understand any of the points made in the letter, screed.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 6 months ago

I agree, malcom. We permanently station 30,000 - 500,000 troops in every country in the world that doesn't have "democracy" according to our standards. That's doable-- I figure a standing army of about 30 million ought to cover it.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 6 months ago

I guess that means you've lost your only reason for posting, svengali.

Speakout 6 years, 6 months ago

"The answer my friend, is blowing in the wind, the answer is blowing in the wind" - Bob Dylan. Wind = McCain's ancient mouth as all Bushcos will pronounce.

kansas778 6 years, 6 months ago

duplenty (Anonymous) says: Perhaps you could explain to us how Iraq was threatening the freedom of the United States?*****Anyplace that tyranny exists threatens the free peoples of the world. We can't fight them all at once without help, but we tackle it where it's prudent.

christie 6 years, 6 months ago

Malcom spews the same lies that are spewed over and over again for the justification of war. He says the sacrafice of 50,000 Americans was justified so WE could live free.I beg your pardon. The justification, if there is one, is so THEY can live free. North Korea never invaded the United States. Nor has Iraq. When they do - let me know. As a hard-core liberal I will be the first in line to Fight and Die for my ( and your ) Freedom. Until then - let THEM fight and die for THEIR freedom. Perhaps it will mean something to them then.

beatrice 6 years, 6 months ago

screed, who is "them" that we are suppsed to defeat, and exactly where is the battlefield? When a suicide bomber attacks in the marketplace, does that spot then count as the battlefield? Since the combatant blows him or herself up, does that me we win? Finally, with the price of oil today - thanks in no small part to the war in Iraq - who can afford espresso anymore?

beatrice 6 years, 6 months ago

Yes screed, you are my one and only source for information. That is why I believe WMDs still exist even though we can't find them, that "they" hate us for our freedom and that Democrats want our country to be socialist, that using our army to fight the concept of "terror" is a brilliant idea, that Valerie Plame wasn't outed by those in the White House, that Bush's response to the bad weather in New Orleans was appropriate, that Scott McClellan is a liar and Dick Cheney doesn't place the oil industry's interests above our nation's, that FoxNews is accurate and unbiased, and that Bush is the bestest darn President ever! Thanks for keeping me informed, screed. Keep up the good work. Your doing a heck of a job, screed, heck of a job.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 6 months ago

"The "nonexistent" nature of Saddam's WMD has never been proven."Talk about logical short-circuiting.

a_flock_of_jayhawks 6 years, 6 months ago

RR says,"An educated person would write "think" or "believe," not "feel.""So at least you got why I used that term. Maybe there are some things you do get. Get it? I said that you "feel". Jerk.

a_flock_of_jayhawks 6 years, 6 months ago

"No, it seems, even from your language, that Democrats were "wrong" an Bush was a "liar.""W took some extraordinary liberty with the nationalism that was prevalent post-9/11. In my opinion, it was the wrong target at the wrong time and I believed that at the time. Now, we're stuck in the job of "nation building" when we really need a military to focus on the defense of the USA, arguably making us more vulnerable. We had Saddam isolated and it would have likely been easier to maintain that strategy while focusing our military and counter-terrorism resources elsewhere as the need would arise. Anyone who knows about our strategic defense in the region for the past few decades as I do knows that to be true. We are left with a choice between bad and worse. Although Bush had been authorized by Congress to use force, he did not need to. He blundered and it will be written in history that way. Mission accomplished, indeed.

dandelion 6 years, 6 months ago

"The fact that Iraq gave safe haven to terrorists is not debatable at all. Even the highly partisan Rockefeller report noted that that was the case."I agree Saudi Arabia did exile the Saudi citizens responsible for 9/11. Of course I'll bet some of that bin Laden money is sent to their son, now and then.

BigAl 6 years, 6 months ago

RestoreReason, you seem to be an intelligent man but I am afraid you have your head buried deep in the sand.Very deep.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 6 months ago

Bush was wrong, and he lied. Democrats were also wrong, but they were more lied to than having lied themselves-- not that many of them are above lying.

dandelion 6 years, 6 months ago

When during modern times has Mexico invaded or threatened to invade its neighbors? Well according to the frightened rightwingies who are willing to give up their freedoms for security, soon we will be overrun by Mexican illegal aliens and will be forced to speak only Spanish. Your reasoning keeps crashing.If you think we should fight for freedom of the Iraqi people, why don't we fight for everyone's freedoms. The Saudi culture is very unfree. It's ok to be friends with some tyrannical governments, but not others? Won't you at least admit that freedom means nothing to you? Please just be honest.

a_flock_of_jayhawks 6 years, 6 months ago

RR,The CIA and other agencies already knew the claim was wrong and had furnished that info the administration several months before he perpetuated it. The media did a particularly poor job of covering the story at that time, and has been roundly criticized over that free pass to W and team.On Meet the Press, Dick Cheney in September 2002 stated "we do know, with absolute certainty, that he (Saddam) is using his procurement system to acquire the equipment he needs in order to enrich uranium to build a nuclear weapon". The intelligence community views at that time did not support that.

a_flock_of_jayhawks 6 years, 6 months ago

In fact, the administration has already conceded that the information was false and the intelligence community has concluded that Saddam's WMD program was effectively ended in 1991.It was wrong ad has been proven since. But, by all means, continue to grasp to those straws, Kevin. Your last statement was ignorant and insulting.

Orwell 6 years, 6 months ago

Screed are you joking? German subs attacked and sank American ships before the US entered World War I. Hitler and Mussolini both formally declared war on the US December 11, 1941, four days after air and naval forces of the Japanese Empire attacked and killed 2,117 Americans in American territory. Had Iraq killed thousands of Americans, or even declared war on us in W's first term, your argument might have just the slightest bit of historical support. As it stands, I'm afraid you'll have to repeat the course in Reality 101.Restore: International inspectors could well have proved (at least to the same extent as in your South African example) that Iraq had no WMDs in 2002, except for the fact that neither Saddam nor Dubya wanted them to do so.

beatrice 6 years, 6 months ago

Wow, RR had five posts in a row. After the second, isn't that just talking to yourself? Mr. Nancy, what you predict about Obama is rather ironic. The very reason that the Democrats will win big this November is exactly because our nation is "set for a renewal that is long overdue." Had Floridians been able to figure out how to work a butterfly ballot, then Bush wouldn't have been named President in 2000, and if John Kerry hadn't been swift-boated (or had a tad more charisma as a speaker), he wouldn't have been re-elected in 2004. But Bush was relected, earned the lowest approval rating for a sitting President, and now we are set for much needed and desired change. The neocons in charge of the Republican party had their chance and proved that they are not interested in what is best for the nation. After the coming election, in order to stay viable Republicans will need to become either centrists or something that resemble Libertarians. They controled the White House, Congress, and the Supreme Court, and blew it big time. They have nobody to blame but themselves. Bye bye neocons. Time to go back to the evangelical tents you crawled out of.

dandelion 6 years, 6 months ago

"But I wasn't being sarcastic when I said it would take a standing army of 30 million to accomplish what you want everywhere in the world. When are you enlisting?"They don't even want to pay the taxes to become the world's enforcer of forced democracy. There is no true freedom unless people are willing to fight for their own freedom. Most of the war supporters on this forum willingly give up their freedoms, so they can get some sense of security. Instead of standing up for our freedoms, they cower and say "oh, oh Bush start a war, so I'll feel safer. Bug anyone you want, so I'll feel safer. Throw anyone you want in prison, without due process, so I'll feel safer. Torture people, so I'll feel safer." Quit cowering and stand up for your freedom, or the terrorist have already won. Let the Iraqis find their own freedom.

kansas778 6 years, 6 months ago

duplenty, I am not president Bush, soooo, because he is bestest buddies with the Saudis has little to do with what I think. Comprendez?I certainly hope you haven't confused 'prudent' with 'easy.' Tackling Iraq was a prudent choice. We have interests in the country economically, as well as tackling tyranny specifically in that area of the world, sending a message to countries like Saudi Arabia and Iran. Liberty has gained a foothold in the middle east, and we need to help it to hold on and grow stronger. Iraq had a stated goal of aggresiveness against Israel, the US and its other neighbors, has aided terrorists in the past and openly given them shelter. No, they didn't have stockpiles of WMDs, but they were actively seeking them and had the ability to begin manufacture of them in a short period of time. On top of that they were run by a tyrannical dictator and his insane sons.

beatrice 6 years, 6 months ago

RR, keep towing that party line. Then, go get a job already.

dandelion 6 years, 6 months ago

Satirical "We are fighting for the freedom for them to decide their own fate, not force our cultural standards on them, i.e. if Iraq wanted to create laws we thought we backwards they are free to do this since they are a sovereign nation."I certainly hope you are living up to your name here. Anyone who believes that Iraq is now sovereign nation is being dishonest with themselves and everyone else.

a_flock_of_jayhawks 6 years, 6 months ago

RR says,"Name one lie that was used to justify removing Saddam from power."Two words: yellow cakeAnd they knew it when they said it.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 6 months ago

"Iraq knows how to build a nuclear weapon and did so in 1990; the only thing it was missing was the fissile material, the uranium.""The same could be said for Mexico. When do we invade?"The question is, what happened to them? Saddam failed, as required by UNSC resolutions, to demonstrate that he had destroyed them."Too bad BushCo were too eager to invade to let inspections run their course.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 6 months ago

"Did Iraq have anything to do with 9/11?"The simple answer is "no." But Kevin's sycophancy won't allow him to say it.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 6 months ago

Just because the Democrats were also wrong, and I along with millions others called them on it at the time, doesn't make BushCo's lies any more acceptable.I know it's hard to admit when you've been duped, Tom, but you were duped.

a_flock_of_jayhawks 6 years, 6 months ago

RR says,"Sorry, Factcheck.org's opinion carries much greater weight than Time magazine."Really? Time magazine is a very reputable source, and they weren't the only credible news source to cite or report this. I would guess that you have cited Time as a source on at least one occasion. So the "fact according to you" does not remain; you continue to contend that it does purely out of convenience to your argument. There's more if you need it, but you would probably find a spin to try to weasel out or attempt to discredit it, anyway. So sad, but entertaining.

beatrice 6 years, 6 months ago

So RR, which log-on names have you previously posted under? I'm just trying to keep up. And please don't make us start listing all of the things John McCain has flip-flopped on. We don't have that much time.

6 years, 6 months ago

Victory will be what George W. decides, because, well, we all know, he's the "Decider." Whatever he says is victory is, and it will be victory, because W. said it was victory. Don't like reality, re-invent it! That's the Bush/Rove way.Note to Republicans: how's the upcoming election going for you? That loud sucking sound is the sound of unemployment coming to the Red party's and why veteran Republicans with a brain are retiring. It'll be decades before you recover from eight years of the W clown. Someone predicted this eight years and I thought they were nuts, that Bush could get elected twice, and if so, he'd wreck the party. They were right.

Satirical 6 years, 6 months ago

Victory in Iraq is: a relatively stable democracy that can defend itself from internal threats without major U.S. involvement.We will likely have military bases in Iraq for decades just like we have in Germany, Japan and South Korea, in order to protect the region.While the reason we entered into Iraq were false, the reason to remain is clear; to prevent genocide, protect the Iraqi citizens, and to protect our allies and our interests in the Middle East.To everyone who claims we should immediately leave simply because victory is a subjective term lacks historical perspective. Think of what South Korea would look like if we never got involved. I guarantee you that millions of South Koreans are grateful for the sacrifices our country made for them. Or how about Kuwait, I also know they are grateful we helped them in 1991. Think of the endless generations of Iraqis that will enjoy freedom if the U.S. has the resolve and altruism to stay and help them through this difficult period in their history.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 6 months ago

"Name one lie that was used to justify removing Saddam from power."Since the definition of "lie" for you explicitly excludes any statements made by BushCo, what's the point?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 6 months ago

BushCo campaigned for months to go to war based on cherry-picked, poorly vetted and outright discredited information, and that adds up to one big fat lie.

kansas778 6 years, 6 months ago

duplenty, I am not president Bush. His opinions are not my opinions. His actions affect my opinion of him, not of Saudi Arabia, nor of what policy I think we should follow. Also, why are you calling for a quote from Bush that contradicts what I say? I am not Bush, soooooo what? What he says doesn't agree with what I say? His reasons aren't the same as mine? So what? I know I go off the message board "script" sometimes, and you want to go back to the anti-Bush stuff you've got prepared, but try it out, you might like it.

Satirical 6 years, 6 months ago

Let me interpret Fred Whitehead's letter:Sometimes victory and the cessation of hostilities are clear and definite. If the victory we seek doesn't meet this definition then victory will never be achieved. Since the definition of victory couldn't be different from my limited understanding of history, or it may be difficult to define we should immediately leave. So:we should ignore all the reasons to stay simply because victory is subjective or difficult to define?

Satirical 6 years, 6 months ago

Dandelion:Your tactics are old, obvious, and false: If you fight for some freedom somewhere means you are required to fight for all freedoms everywhere. We are fighting for the freedom for them to decide their own fate, not force our cultural standards on them, i.e. if Iraq wanted to create laws we thought we backwards they are free to do this since they are a sovereign nation.Also, we are already in Iraq, we are not in these other countries. The Iraqi government allows us to stay in the country to help defend the people and rebuild their nation.

BigAl 6 years, 6 months ago

Restore Reason: These aren't so much lies as just outright misleading propaganda put out by Bushco to the American people.1. The Iraq war will be paid for with Iraqi oil2. We will build a huge coalition of nations. 3. We will be treated as liberators.And on a lesser note:Mission Accomplished?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 6 months ago

"The debate about why we went into Iraq is moot, the only question that matters is why we should stay."It's not moot. The invasion and the lies that justified it are outright criminal, and declaring them "moot" increases the likelihood of repeating this nightmare, not to mention giving the criminals a free pass for their crimes against humanity.While we will be liable financially for the complete and utter destruction of Iraq for decades to come, we should withdraw immediately and leave the reconstruction of Iraq to countries that have some vestige of credibility.

ignati5 6 years, 6 months ago

Screed?Reminds me of a routine Jack Burns and Avery Schreiber used to do.Set in Boston, known, at the time, for underchieving intellectuals in menial jobs. Scrod is a fish dish popular in New England.Taxi driver to visiting conventioneer:" Where can I take you, Bud?'Passenger: " Take me to a place I can get scrod."Taxi driver: " You from Harvard? I've been asked that questions before, but this is the first time anyone ever put it to me in pluperfect subjunctive." IVK

BigAl 6 years, 6 months ago

Did Iraq have anything to do with 9/11?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 6 months ago

"The point, which you just demonstrated, is that you cannot name a single lie."The lies have been listed literally millions of times, in hundreds of thousands of ways, Kevin. You just can't accept the standard definition of "lie," and conveniently apply a different on to that which is inconvenient to your sycophancy.

Rationalanimal 6 years, 6 months ago

...it sure as hell isn't pulling our troops out, or calling for our troops to come out in turn giving aid and comfort to the enemy and leaving a vacuum of power for Iran to seize, in the middle of the conflict while we are advancing and meeting defined objectives. Fred Whitehead, Marxists anti-Americans like him and the majority of the Democrat party in more enlightened days of America, if they had the guts to publicly subvert the interests of America, would appropriately have been charged, tried and convicted of sedition. Such people who willfully work to the detrmiment of America are not worthy of even the loathesome title of "sunny day patriots." They are bottom feeding ilk that have infiltrated a democratic system and if left to remain would destroy the fundamental personal liberties passed down from this country's founding and in its place subject us all to Stalinism.

BigPrune 6 years, 6 months ago

Barack Obama supporters CAUGHT saluting US Marines, NAZI style.http://www.breitbart.tv/?p=118473

beatrice 6 years, 6 months ago

I love that Obama will be our next President. It is going to make folks like RR go crazy with their rage and hatred. I love it!And John McCain's senior advisor Charlie Black -- not just some kid off the street and not tied to the politician -- wants America to be attacked by terrorists, because he thinks it would help McCain in the polls (where he is sinking like the Titanic). Talk about hating America!

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 6 months ago

screed, you don't need me to post-- you're too busy posting for me. Only problem is I look like an idiot when you speak for me. But so do you.

jayhawklawrence 6 years, 6 months ago

Bush quotes:"I'm the commander - see, I don't need to explain - I do not need to explain why I say things. That's the interesting thing about being president." -as quoted in Bob Woodward's Bush at War"I'll be long gone before some smart person ever figures out what happened inside this Oval Office." --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., May 12, 2008 "You know, one of the hardest parts of my job is to connect Iraq to the war on terror." --George W. Bush, interview with CBS News' Katie Couric, Sept. 6, 2006

a_flock_of_jayhawks 6 years, 6 months ago

RR asks,"what was the alternative to removing Saddam from power?"Containment. It worked for decades against more formidable powers. And it was working against him. Strange that you ask me to answer that for you, since you feel I am so uneducated.

uncleandyt 6 years, 6 months ago

"Victory" is a sports term. Slaughter is not a game. We lost when we became the aggressors. There can be no victory. Pretend I'm wrong.We lied going in. We lie about leaving. There is no exit strategy. We are setting up shop. We are spreading Capitalism. We are making the world safer for Coke and Pepsi. "Victory" might be a Pizza Hut , "success", a Baghdad Hooters.

a_flock_of_jayhawks 6 years, 5 months ago

Sure did, screed. You must have missed the very last part of the article. The yellowcake referenced in the news article was not the same as what was made in the now debunked claim.You show that you are very quick to embrace faulty information in your zeal to be right.

a_flock_of_jayhawks 6 years, 5 months ago

The yellowcake mentioned had IAEA seals on it from the 1991 Gulf War.

Commenting has been disabled for this item.