Letters to the Editor

Defense offered

February 21, 2008

Advertisement

To the editor:

This responds to Monday's letter, "Spirit corrupted," by Jason Lantz.

First, the misinformation you reference about Iraq was also disseminated by many intelligence agencies around the world, not just ours. Most political leaders of both parties during the 1990s felt Iraq and Saddam Hussein were viable threats to our security.

Secondly, the torture everyone refers to, waterboarding, has reportedly been used only three times in six years. It is specifically used on the leaders of our enemies when the most vital information may be obtained to save American lives.

Finally, I am confident that, in the Boston, New York and Washington, D.C., areas, there are over 3,000 families of 9/11 victims who wish someone would have been "listening" during the Bill Clinton administration.

Richard Lyman,

Lawrence

Comments

Ragingbear 7 years, 2 months ago

Hmm. I wonder if Richard were grabbed off the streets, thrown into a 6x6 cell and waterboarded without due process all because he once accepted a call from a wrong number of somebody once thought linked to a terrorist organization known as Cobra.

Justifying it by claiming it was only used 3 times is like saying Germany only had 3 concentration camps, or that you only randomly killed 3 people for no reason.

blessed3x 7 years, 2 months ago

Hey, Ragingbare, please provide information on any U.S. citizen that has been grabbed off the street and waterboarded. I am dying to see the sources that have led to your worry and consternation.

Ragingbear 7 years, 2 months ago

That information is classified, blessed. Just like everyone else. There are several people that are lawful American Citizens in Gitmo. But they won't tell us if they are there, murdered, missing or abducted by aliens.

And blessed, you are now trying to justify it by claiming they aren't Americans we did this to. That is like saying "What Hitler did was OK because they weren't Germans, they were Jews. So it's all OK.".

Richard Heckler 7 years, 2 months ago

During the Clinton years according to a verified 1997 Time Magazine article Saddam destroyed whatever weapons may been been classified as WMD's.

Developing a nuclear weapon is not as easy as BUSHCO likes to pretend. It is a time consuming complex process which involves much testing from what I've read. It is also a secret that is hard to keep a secret. Israel is the sixth largest nuclear power in the world... isn't it time Israel got out of the business?

Under a USA no fly zone that was active how in the world would Saddam have launched an attack on anyone? How could any mideastern country launch an attack to anywhere?

oldvet 7 years, 2 months ago

OOOhhhh... it's classified... so we just have to trust you that you have seen this classified information that no one else has seen... a convenient way to justify your lie...

Ragingbear 7 years, 2 months ago

No, a lie is "We have solid proof of WMD's in Iraq, and proof that they are tied to 9/11". If your too lazy to bother to look into the situation, then there is nothing I can do for you. Eventually, you will realize that some things are wrong, but by then your organs are being harvested so that "non-enemy combatants" can get the transplants they need.

You know who else told everyone that the concentration camps were a lie? Hitler!

StrangerCreek 7 years, 2 months ago

If you've ever been in combat you know it's more than a word on the screen, it's in all actually impossible to describe. Carnage is a better verb. And if you've seen first hand what horrible things these "patriots" do in the name of their religion, you'd probably puke.

So if you find your buddy dead, mutilated beyond recognition and you get your hands on the guy who knows where everybody is you wouldn't wack his finger with a hammer to get him to talk? They would. They will. They do. They will drill holes in you with an electric drill, before they cut your head off.

Get real people. This isn't no tennis match. And unless you've seen it, smelled it, and felt it you won't understand it. A little whack on the finger of a known bad guy (you caught him shooting at you) is a lot less than they do. And if it saves lives, I'm for it. We don't cut peoples heads off, they do.

A question to you liberals: If you caught the guy who knew all about the 9-11 plans (dates/flights/names) you wouldn't whack him on the finger to save 3,000 lives? Scare him a little bit? Or would you just put him in a cell with three squares a day?

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

"offtotheright (Anonymous) says:

No:.a real lie is "I did not have s*xual relations with that woman"!"

This sounds amazingly trite.

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

"They would. They will. They do. They will drill holes in you with an electric drill, before they cut your head off. A little whack on the finger of a known bad guy (you caught him shooting at you) is a lot less than they do. And if it saves lives, I'm for it. We don't cut peoples heads off, they do."

You sound like someone who would be supportive of my new slogan. "USA! Better than homicidal terrorists!"

Can I get underwritten?

Mkh 7 years, 2 months ago

"A question to you liberals: If you caught the guy who knew all about the 9-11 plans (dates/flights/names) you wouldn't whack him on the finger to save 3,000 lives? Scare him a little bit? Or would you just put him in a cell with three squares a day?"

Finally! Someone steps up and calls for us to torture Cheney! I couldn't agree more sir...I always thought the impeachment idea was a slap on the wrist...but this is where it's at. I can't wait to smell Cheney's pain.

Mkh 7 years, 2 months ago

LoL yeah right possesion! I'm going to be laughing at all you neo-cons in 2009 when we are hit again by the "terrorists" and you all have to rally behind your new fuhrer Obama or Hillary to protect you from the bad people. Oh my the irony will be ridiculous!

cato_the_elder 7 years, 2 months ago

Excellent letter. To the point, and a paradigm of wisdom and common sense.

beatrice 7 years, 2 months ago

So everyone knew that Clinton should have done something about the danger of Osama bin Laden rather than diddle the chubby girl. Okay.

So why wasn't this priority numero uno for Bush when he went into office? With the threat so obviously looming to everyone other than the Democrats, and it was a situation so clearly needing to be taken care of, why exactly did the President take the month of August 2001 as a vacation at his Texas ranch? Did the President take such a long vacation after such a short time in office while knowing we were in danger?

Any Republican claiming that the U.S. will get hit by a terrorist attack if a Democrat is elected has a pretty short memory. It was the Republican in office, or rather on vacation, when America got hit. Remember that? It was your team that dropped the ball, and they continue to do so to this day.

By the way: Where is Osama bin Laden?

Ragingbear 7 years, 2 months ago

The war on terror is just a farce. All we are doing is stirring up the antpile. The Taliban are already regaining control in Afghanistan. Iraq is a sad, pathetic joke and they don't want us there. Bush has claimed several times that such things like waterboarding have yielded information. Yet there are no actual reports to verify that. Not even classified documents. That came around at a Supreme Court investigation a few months back. A bunch of records and recordings suddenly vanished because they had been "recycled".

Mkh 7 years, 2 months ago

Well, we agree on one thing Posession, that we will get another attack in 2009. If we do get one in 2008 we won't have to worry about an election in November. And while I won't be laughing about the attack:I will be amused at the neo-cons because you will be falling right in line with Hillary/Obama and goose-stepping while waving flags:and I think you know this posession:and it scares you a little I'm sure.

I could become angry and enraged when you all continue to ruin America:but frankly these days I try to laugh about it as much as possible:because sometimes things are too depressing do anything but laugh.

Hillary/Obama will become the "great patriot" hawk leader who carries on W's glorious war against the infidels. "You are either with us or against us":.remember possession?

It's "us vs. them". The idiot neo-cons will fall right in line and cheer the expansion of the federal government to protect us from the "enemies".

And yes, we will be invading Pakistan most likely no matter which of these three beasts is President. But you won't find Osama:and it won't matter.

Mkh 7 years, 2 months ago

"The power of the Executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers, is in the highest degree odious and is the foundation of all totalitarian government whether Nazi or Communist."

  • Winston Churchill, Nov. 21, 1943

Richard Heckler 7 years, 2 months ago

Bush and Rice were briefed on the potential of 9/11/01 approximately 30 days before the action took place. Apparently oil running through their veins blocked any logical approach to the matter.

Meanwhile: Taxpayers in Lawrence, Kansas will pay $91.5 million for the cost of the Iraq War through 2007. For the same amount of money, the following could have been provided: 29,458 People with Health Care OR 94,202 Homes with Renewable Electricity OR 2,027 Music and Arts Teachers OR 18,969 Scholarships for University Students OR 11 New Elementary Schools OR 1,099 Affordable Housing Units OR 53,114 Children with Health Care OR 14,289 Head Start Places for Children OR 2,037 Elementary School Teachers OR

1029 7 years, 2 months ago

This letter is obviously a joke, people. Richard is trying to make a point about misinformation. Each of his three paragraphs is based on a point of misinformation. No one without solid inside information would seriously claim that they believed that waterboarding had been "used only three times in six years". He is poking fun at the people who get their information from fox news and other shows where unqualified talking heads present their unqualified opinions and interpretations as fact.

Just look at the part where he writes: "Most political leaders of both parties during the 1990s felt Iraq and Saddam Hussein were viable threats to our security". This issue was addressed in-depth with solid citations in the unpartisan best-seller "Fiasco". Richard knows that people in a city that is on a smart cities list probably read books. He is just trying to show that there are still people out there who form their opinions based on ideas that were long ago proven to be false (like the polls that showed that the majority of people who voted for bush in '04 still thought that there were wmd's and that iraq was somehow involved in 9/11).

His last paragraph is the most brilliant of all. His critical insertion "I am confident that" is a clever reference to the fact that many midwestern people who have aggressive right-of-center views on foreign policy are completely ignorant of what it is like to actually live in large cities among so many diverse people with diverse ideas. Plus, in the aftermath of 9/11there were several groups formed by families of victims because they were disgusted by how the U.S. misdirected its "revenge" away from terrorist organizations and toward iraq. The only people who blame Clinton for any of the 9/11 events are the people who are already try to blame him for anything that went wrong ever since he left office. This is a simple political concept, a (desperate) attempt to show that republicans can do no wrong.

Anyway, I can't believe people are debating Richard's words as if they were written with seriousness. Come on, people! If Richard Lyman really believed the things he wrote in his letter, he'd be one of most ignorant, uninformed people in the country. There is no way he could make a credible citation for a single thing in his letter.

Good job, Richard.

Mkh 7 years, 2 months ago

No posession...I simply read the laws and Excutive Orders that get issued from my government...try it sometime.

Obama is going to withdrawl from Iraq? Ha Ha Ha. Obviously you haven't read Breninski's "The Grand Chessboard"...maybe you should.

BigDog 7 years, 2 months ago

Meanwhile: Taxpayers in Lawrence, Kansas will pay $91.5 million for the cost of the Iraq War through 2007. For the same amount of money, the following could have been provided: 29,458 People with Health Care OR 94,202 Homes with Renewable Electricity OR 2,027 Music and Arts Teachers OR 18,969 Scholarships for University Students OR 11 New Elementary Schools OR 1,099 Affordable Housing Units OR 53,114 Children with Health Care OR 14,289 Head Start Places for Children OR 2,037 Elementary School Teachers OR


Just like the liberals always finding more ways to spend money. How about we leave some of it in the pockets of the taxpayer and let them decide how to spend it?

Mkh 7 years, 2 months ago

Then you really need to read "The Grandchess Board" posession....not only do I think you will love it, but it will help you understand what is really going on in foreign policy. "The Grandchess Board" is the neo-con bible...I'm surprised you don't have a copy next to your bedside.

Mkh 7 years, 2 months ago

or maybe I'm just doing three things at once....either way posession, you need to read this....

beatrice 7 years, 2 months ago

possess: you don't want to catch Osama?

My "analysis" is that if anyone blames Clinton for 9/11 because he didn't do anything to stop Osama, then why aren't they also blaming the guy who had been in office for almost a year after Clinton?

In other words, if you blame one president for not taking action, then you must blame the president who followed. Instead of focusing on the world issues, Bush was on vacation ... so better blame Clinton!

Now, people here are claiming that they are so in touch with the terrorists that they "know" that if a Democrat wins the election then we will again be attacked. You mean as we were when the Republicans were in office?

9/11 happened on Bush's watch, nine months into his presidency, or after roughly 20% of his first term, but people act like it was in the first week and he was just settling in.

In reality, history tells us that if a Republican wins the election, that is when we will be attacked.

This makes as much sense as arguing the opposite.

That, sir, is my analysis.

Mkh 7 years, 2 months ago

actually, everyone needs to read this book, "The Grand Chessboard"...especially if you are one of the unfortunate fools who thinks Obama will withdrawl all the troops from Iraq....just like "W" doesn't believe America should be engaged in "nation building", remember?

Mkh 7 years, 2 months ago

Beatrice,

I was arguing that we are going to be attacked in the new administration regardless of if it's McCain or Hillary/Obama. But since it's more likely the Dems will get the White House I was agreeing with posession (a rare event).

If Hillary/Obama is elected I think that an attack of some kind is guaranteed to give them the public approval needed to continue the agenda of the Global Elite.

It's actually all written out in "The Grand Chessboard", which are agues that catastrophic events must be used a catalyst to rally the public in favor of War and Empire...they are simply following a blueprint.

lounger 7 years, 2 months ago

Richard just admit it happened under George W. Bullys watch!! Osama Bin Laden! Where is he??? Oil in Iraq and thats all folks!!!

Mkh 7 years, 2 months ago

Haven't read Wright's book, but I am familiar with the rubbish. I prefer this one however:

The Road to 9/11: Wealth, Empire, and the Future of America by Peter Dale Scott www.amazon.com/Road-11-Wealth-Empire-...

It's a shame you can't see who the real enemies are...America is under attack...but not by cave dwellers.

Mkh 7 years, 2 months ago

posession naively asks: "Did you hear Halliburton is planning a death camp where the San Diego Fires were?"


"Since 9/11, and seemingly without the notice of most Americans, the federal government has assumed the authority to institute martial law, arrest a wide swath of dissidents (citizen and noncitizen alike), and detain people without legal or constitutional recourse in the event of "an emergency influx of immigrants in the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs."

Beginning in 1999, the government has entered into a series of single-bid contracts with Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg, Brown and Root (KBR) to build detention camps at undisclosed locations within the United States. The government has also contracted with several companies to build thousands of railcars, some reportedly equipped with shackles, ostensibly to transport detainees.

According to diplomat and author Peter Dale Scott, the KBR contract is part of a Homeland Security plan titled ENDGAME, which sets as its goal the removal of "all removable aliens" and "potential terrorists."

Fraud-busters such as Rep. Henry Waxman, D-Los Angeles, have complained about these contracts, saying that more taxpayer dollars should not go to taxpayer-gouging Halliburton. But the real question is: What kind of "new programs" require the construction and refurbishment of detention facilities in nearly every state of the union with the capacity to house perhaps millions of people?

Sect. 1042 of the 2007 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA), "Use of the Armed Forces in Major Public Emergencies," gives the executive the power to invoke martial law. For the first time in more than a century, the president is now authorized to use the military in response to "a natural disaster, a disease outbreak, a terrorist attack or any other condition in which the President determines that domestic violence has occurred to the extent that state officials cannot maintain public order."

The Military Commissions Act of 2006, rammed through Congress just before the 2006 midterm elections, allows for the indefinite imprisonment of anyone who donates money to a charity that turns up on a list of "terrorist" organizations, or who speaks out against the government's policies. The law calls for secret trials for citizens and noncitizens alike."

www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/04/ED5OUPQJ7.DTL

Mkh 7 years, 2 months ago

posessionannex (Anonymous) says:

"I'm not surprised that you'd ignore the history of al-Qaeda, your man Brzezinski having funded the ISI and Prince Turki's buddies"

I fully recognize the United States/CIA's role with the ISI in the fomation of al-Qaeda.

paavopetie 7 years, 2 months ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

It looks like we got this out of the way with the very first comment. W00t!

Mkh 7 years, 2 months ago

So do you deny that the government (w/ Halliburton help) have been setting up "concentration camps" inside the US? Do you deny that FEMA Camps have been established and steps taken to institute martial law in the event of an "emergency" situation?

uncleandyt 7 years, 2 months ago

First, "misinformation ...disseminated by others in the world" , is more misinformation. The Limbaugh Letter should not be confused with intelligence info. Our political leaders "felt" like dropping some bombs. Our leaders "felt" like setting up shop. $$$$$$ Torture is inhuman, inhumane, and theoretically unAmerican. Our President assured us many times that "we don't do torture". Maybe he's out of the loop. Finally, Clinton,Clinton, Clinton, aye carumba...Bush was President on 9-11. The attackers were mostly Saudis and they died in the attack. I wish someone would have payed attention to the PDB titled "Bin Laden determined to strike within the U.S." I do not support our war crimes.

Mkh 7 years, 2 months ago

I can see you are not going to debate this with a shred of intelligence. You either don't know what's happening or you approve of it and try to discredit those who are informing others. Either way you are a disgrace posessionannex (Kevin).

Mkh 7 years, 2 months ago

Well....I suppose you have nothing of value to contribute to the community or mankind in general. So by all means keep up with your ignorant mocking and overall pathetic existence.

Darrell Lea 7 years, 2 months ago

Personally, I think this letter is a fake, and simply a ruse to stir the pot on the discussion forum and produce hits on the web site.

Kind of like throwing red meat to a pack of hungry wolves, I say.

uncleandyt 7 years, 2 months ago

Kevin? mix it up, dude. I am not me. I've never been me. And when I come back again, I'll be somebody else, yet whack.

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

possessionannex =/= kevin I think. Pretty sure Ferdinand at least was on at the same time, within the past year.

He's like a boogeyman, at this point it seems. It's so obvious when he pops up, though, despite an extended absence this time.

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

"posessionannex (Anonymous) says:

If I was Kevin, I'd be a better writer."

Certainly a more obsessive one.

jayhawklawrence 7 years, 2 months ago

One issue that has not been discussed enough is our history of choosing sides around the world and arming them with weapons. Have we really owned up to the fact that our "intelligence services" and "foreign policy geniuses" with the big diplomas armed, trained and supported IRAQ in order to counter IRAN. They propped up Sadaam's government as they have in many other places around the world, thereby allowing the establishment of Dictators like Sadaam.

Same thing in Afghanistan. Our freedom fighters against the Soviets became the same dudes we are fighting today and Osama Bin Lama was one of them.

So why are we playing this international chess game of weaponry and intrigue through secret spy networks when it turns everyone against us.

Or are you so aligned with your political parties rhetoric that you can no longer question your beliefs and ask yourself if we really are doing the right thing.

jayhawklawrence 7 years, 2 months ago

We were warned not to go into Iraq by most of our allies who were aligned with us in the previous Iraq war. We should have paid heed to those concerns.

What I am saying is that our government goes to war too easily. We are a nation that created a government of checks and balances because we learned to fear the concentration of power in the hands of a few or one. Now we are the most powerful nation in the world and right after the end of the cold war, we get tempted into exercising that power needlessly.

What I am saying is that we use our weapons too easily and the International Arms business is very profitable. We simply cannot continue with the status quo and earn the respect of the people around the world. We have to become a promoter of peace, not war. We are doing a poor job.

jayhawklawrence 7 years, 2 months ago

I lived for a short time with a family in Bouake, Ivory Coast, Africa. We lived in a cinder block building. They were dirt poor but wealthy in spirit. At night the front yard was filled with friends and we discussed what it is like to live in America. One of the things that really struck me was that they looked to America for hope. H-O-P-E.

I have never forgotten that. We have to give them hope.

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

When was I whining? I could care less about Groen's number of names, and personally I don't understand why the moderators feel the need to exclude him. The only point I was trying to make is that possessionannex is Not him, and perhaps that some posters always tend to leap to that conclusion when faced with a conservative poster who they can't immediately reference. Groen has a very distinctive writing voice, that makes all of his different identities useless in any practical sense.

FYI: I have 3 sign on names. jonas, jonas_opines, and a third one that I made just for kicks about two years ago. jonas is the only one that I use, the others have probably 10 posts a piece on them.

jonas_opines 7 years, 2 months ago

Make that two, now three posts. It's a shame that I lost this one, as I really prefer it. jonas is much easier to login to, though.

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

Now, the real question is whether I actually know you, or you just did a google search. . . . ima, wakaranai yo.

more_cowbell 7 years, 2 months ago

"A question to you liberals: If you caught the guy who knew all about the 9-11 plans (dates/flights/names) you wouldn't whack him on the finger to save 3,000 lives?"

A question to you conservatives: If you caught someone you thought knew all about the 9/11 plans and tortured him, and he revealed a bunch of made-up stuff just to stop the torture, while the actual plotters avoided profiling and found some Mitt Romney look-alikes (or more likely, Ann Coulter look-alikes) already in the country to carry out the attacks, would you feel any guilt whatsoever?

Or would you be like Uncle Dick, and shoot your "friend" first, and later ascertain whether he was indeed wild fowl?

Mmmm hmmm.

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

lacolonia: First post, absolutely worthless. Great quote, but pointless as it doesn't apply to me.

I like your second post, though. It shows that one can be extremely intelligent, well read and well read, but still be as incapable of realistic, non-biased analysis and thought as any other yahoo on board.

"Those like you on the far left. . . "

kyahahahahaha.

jayhawklawrence 7 years, 2 months ago

Max1

Yes, 15 of the 19, and that's my cue to post this picture again. http://www.giveupblog.com/images/kiss-sa:

Great picture. I guess liberty gets trumped by oil money every time.

StrangerCreek 7 years, 2 months ago

Check out this link: http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html

Taxes under Clinton 1999 Taxes under Bush 2008 Single making 30K Â- tax $8,400 Single making 30K Â- tax $4,500 Single making 50K Â- tax $14,000 Single making 50K Â- tax $12,500 Single making 75K Â- tax $23,250 Single making 75K Â- tax $18,750 Married making 60K Â- tax $16,800 Married making 60K Â- tax $9,000 Married making 75K Â- tax $21,000 Married making 75K Â- tax $18,750 Married making 125K Â- tax $38,750 Married making 125K Â- tax $31,250

If you want to know just how effective the mainstream media is, it is amazing how many people that fall into the categories above think Bush is screwing them and Bill Clinton was the greatest President ever. If any democrat is elected, ALL of them say they will repeal the Bush tax cuts and a good portion of the people that fall into the categories above can't wait for it to happen. This is like the movie the Sting with Paul Newman, you scam somebody out of some money and they don't even know what happened. Now this is effective (maybe not honest) marketing or maybe a better word is brain washing.

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

Maybe the bottom line on politicians screwing us is not just simply the bottom line amount that we get taxed. My personal view is that, as long as the government runs a deficit, then there's no such thing as a tax cut, just a tax deferment. A tax cut would be when we're in the black, we cut government spending, and quit taking that comparable amount of money in taxes. When we're in the red, we raise spending, and then give a tax cut, well that just seems like pandering to short-sighted people who base their entire views of a president on how much they have to pay in taxes. But that's just my personal view.

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

"right_thinker (Anonymous) says:

Don't be, trust me."

That would be asking quite a bit.

Evan Ridenour 7 years, 2 months ago

We have, in the past, executed people for war crimes INCLUDING water boarding yet all of a sudden it is okay if WE do it?

We are using the same rational as other countries in the past have used for torture. As long as it is necessary it is okay for us to do it, just not anyone else.

Ridiculous!

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

The last thing I heard was that we executed some Japanese for waterboarding during WWII, but my memory may not be accurate.

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

Memory did not suffice.

In 1947, the War Crimes trials sentenced a japanese soldier, Yukio Asano, to 15 years of hard labor for waterboarding. Another, Chinsaku Yuki, was convicted of various forms of torture, including waterboarding, and was sentenced to life imprisonment. There are tales of others getting executed, of course, but from what I could glean most of those probably concerned multiple cases of many different types of torture.

So no, no records of anyone getting executed just for waterboarding. Just 15 years of hard labor.

BigAl 7 years, 2 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

Mkh 7 years, 2 months ago

"And do you have any theories concerning why the Clinton administration left office in Janaury 2001 still claiming that Saddam had WMD and, thus, was a clear and present danger at all times?"

I'm pretty sure we already verified that Clinton was an incredible and infamous liar. Yet some people continue to believe what he said and continues to say...amazing.

Mkh 7 years, 2 months ago

lacolonia (Anonymous) says: "So you believe Clinton lied about Iraq's WMD and the threat Iraq posed to the U.S., and then he allowed Hillary to vote to authorize force against Iraq without telling her the truth? Wow, what a disservice to his wife."


Ha! No...once again you are giving the Clintons way too much credit for honesty. Do you really believe Hillary when she says she was "decieved by the White House" about the intelligence on Iraq?

Wow.

The thing is that they are liars. Bill Clinton lied about Iraq's WMD's and so did Hillary about her vote....she wanted to go to War and it had nothing to do with WMDs. Now she is just playing the American voters like the fools they are.

more_cowbell 7 years, 2 months ago

"Modern day liberalism involves virtually no consideration of individual liberty, only collective "liberties" which are arbitrarily determined by the gang in charge."

Marion writes:

100% correct and spot on!

Well put!

Hear! Hear!


Freedom to marry? For gays and lesbians?

Modern day conservatism involves virtually no consideration of individual liberty, only collective "liberties" which are arbitrarily determined by the gang in charge.

Equally applicable. Different animal (elephant not donkey), same rodeo (denying freedom).

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

"Marion writes:

Yes; agreed and also because the socialists hereabouts are fans of The Big Lie; that is, the lie which is repeated so often that it becomes commonly accepted as being the truth."

Marion, curiosity makes me wonder which Big Lie you are referring to. Is it the one that claims that socialism works, or something else?

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

"The water cure is clearly torture and often resulted in death. They are very, very different things."

I'll take your word for it. I, personally, think your probably just splitting hairs. But more power to you.

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

"If you consider rendition and torture wrong, why blame just Bush?"

Well, it stands to reason as it is the only administration currently under ability to redirect its actions, being that the Clinton administration is, well, over. The only thing left to do against Clinton is to not vote for his wife, and believe me I plan on doing just that. (not voting for his wife)

ndmoderate 7 years, 2 months ago

"Show us where you have ever criticized the Clinton administration's policies of extraordinary rendition and torture."

If that's not groenhagenspeak, slap me and call me Shirley.

(by the by, I hereby criticize the Clinton administration's policies of extraordinary rendition and torture (if true). I similarly criticize the Bush administration's policies of extraordinary rendition and torture.

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

"Your comment has nothing to do with reason. All history is relevant."

It has plenty of reason, certainly much more than this response, which has none, at least in relation to the context of my original post. Current events are certainly more relevant than history, being that they are capable of being affected. History, while a useful guide, can never be anything more than that.

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

But no, as Ubermime said above, I don't particularly expect you to comprehend this, or the fact that I'm not simply interested in blaming Bush just for the purposes of destructive criticism and attack. I certainly don't plan on continually bringing him up as the root of all ill for the entirety of the next administration, though I'm sure there are some that will.

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

So, what's the excuse of the vehemently non-socialist?

more_cowbell 7 years, 2 months ago

"America must lose! America is to blame! Bush is a war criminal! Torture is bad, beheadingswe deserve! Christians are killers; Muslims are misunderstood!"


Not America. Just the government. Some of y'all "righties" do the same thing:

The (current) government must lose. The (current) goverment is to blame. (Current president) is a (war) criminal. Sending troops to (current location) is bad.

Insert "Clinton" for "current" and "Kosovo" (or "Somalia") for "current location" and you have a nice mirror image. No different, really. Only the faces and places have changed. Same lumbering 900-lb. government. Same runaway spending, too. The only difference is in where all the money is going. Big armies are just another symptom of big government.

Now, for religion. Surely the "righties" do not hold to the opposite view: "Muslims are killers! Christians are misunderstood!" I give them more credit than that, and simplifying the "lefties" in such a way bespeaks not just a simple argument, but a simple mind making it.

I'm not saying there are no moral absolutes--I'm saying don't judge political opponents by those standards, any more than you yourself would like to be judged so simplistically.

As for "torture is bad", yes, it is--that's a moral absolute. Beheadings are also bad--another moral absolute. Beheadings are never deserved--neither is torture. Those who think they are (for whatever head) are moral relativists as much as (I would say more than, but then again, I'm a "lefty") someone who considers some forms of adultery (Clinton) or idolatry (i.e. "American Idol") more excusable than others. Moral relativism--whether regarding the injunction against killing or against adultery--leads down a dangerous road.

But moral absolutism creates fodder for extremists: those who believe in absolutes are also more likely to be willing to label whole classes of people as "evildoers" or "infidels", and whether they're Christians or Muslims, doing the Devil's work. Those who believe in a God that sanctions or even rewards killing are the problem. And both Christians and Muslims can fall into that sort of evil.

Take the (mostly vanished) practice of executing adulterers. Surely by those standards, the wives of soldiers with verified kills are free to do as (or whom) they choose, right? "Kill the adulterer, Cuckold the killer?"

Two wrongs do not make a right. An eye for an eye make the whole world blind. Et cetera.

Get comfortable with the gray areas, folks. And the purple areas (between the red and the blue opposites). And there you have it, Purple and Gray. Purple and Gray are OK. Can't we all just get along? Disagree agreeably? Or is Manhattan (the "little" one, that is) pure evil?

See how I brought it around to sports? Didn't even plan that... :-p

uncleandyt 7 years, 2 months ago

War is bad. Starting wars is criminal. Cheerleading for our war crimes every day for hours on an award winning forum is bad for business. Get back to work , Righties. You are hurting the Economy.

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

"But, for me, logging onto LJW is like visiting the primate house at the zoo."

Hmmmm. . . . not a bad analogy, actually.

Eileen Jones 7 years, 2 months ago

The Bush administration told lies to the American people. The definition of a lie is that you know it is false.

There is no excuse for that.

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

Seriously, Taco, when are you going to get off and go away? I'm not gonna try and force you, but I won't deny that I think things would be better whenever you do.

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

Underneath that urbane veneer is the petty malice of a child, eh lacolonia?

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

It's pretty funny, because we might be fooled for a bit, and then you give us that moment where it again occurs that you're really a very small person.

jgragg 7 years, 2 months ago

I think the only reason I read the comments on LJW is to get a good laugh.

Mkh 7 years, 2 months ago

I think Kevin just created lacolonia to draw attention away from his posessionannex in order to mess you guys.

Rumor has it that he used to do a lot of work for LJW and that's why he always lasts so long.

Anyways he's a sad nut...who like RT, won't go away as long until he is completely ignored.

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

"Rumor has it that he used to do a lot of work for LJW and that's why he always lasts so long."

He doesn't usually last very long at all. Your information and conclusions seem as reliable as ever.

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

Right-thinker: For someone who uses it with such proclivity, you have difficulty recognizing sarcasm.

jonas 7 years, 2 months ago

Mkh? Yes, I agree, which is why I posted what I did.

Commenting has been disabled for this item.