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Letters to the Editor

Bush league justice

August 10, 2008

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To the editor:

Osama bin Laden's driver, Salim Hamdan, has been convicted of : driving. Good. He's been sentenced to 5 1/2 years. Good. Charged, convicted and dealt a reasonable sentence given the crime of which he has been convicted. All within the American justice system : sort of.

The Bush administration wanted him sentenced to life imprisonment. Execution was even mentioned. For driving. Does life imprisonment and execution for being the driver - even the driver of a very evil man - remind anyone but me of news stories in recent years of some grade-school child being suspended for the school year because he sneaked a water pistol into the school building in his backpack?

Now we hear from federal authorities that regardless of the official verdict and sentence in Hamdan's trial, our government has the right to hold him indefinitely in Guantanamo without further charge. Our democratic society's judicial process, touted by us as being among the fairest and most impartial on the planet, is in the world spotlight with this trial. And our highest government officials are publicly speaking of brushing aside the results of this process. What are these people thinking? Are they thinking?

Welcome to Bush-league justice. Welcome to the Guantanamo Gulag.

Tom Hoffman,
Lawrence

Comments

screedposter 5 years, 8 months ago

Wow, a day ago, I expected a forceful "War is Not the Answer" reply from dublenty. Seems War is the Answer, if Obama is president.

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screedposter 5 years, 8 months ago

Duplenty, do you think invading Pakistan would be a wise move?

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duplenty 5 years, 8 months ago

"Because he's in Waziristan, and we're not allowed to invade Waziristan.You want to invade Pakistan?"Um, you see the problem with this statement, right?Pakistan is supposedly our TWOT partner. We regularly send Predator drones into Pakistan. But we're going to let Bin Laden marinate a little longer so as not to upset Pakistan?

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screedposter 5 years, 8 months ago

"And, again, why haven't we gotten Bin Laden yet, with all of the resources we've poured into this war?"Because he's in Waziristan, and we're not allowed to invade Waziristan.You want to invade Pakistan?

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justfornow 5 years, 8 months ago

Recently heard Quote by Bush. "You tell 'em I'm coming! And Hell's coming with me you hear! Hell's coming with me!"

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jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

And, again, why haven't we gotten Bin Laden yet, with all of the resources we've poured into this war?

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jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

Interesting, although the name-calling gets a bit tiresome.If the US had gotten involved in WWII earlier, it might have lessened the destruction, however, the real underlying problem is the massive numbers of people who were willing to follow Hitler.Part of that problem is what Jung identified as "projection of the shadow", meaning that many people, in order to feel good about themselves, need to disown parts of themselves and project them onto others.Until/unless we solve that problem on a wider scale, we will continue to have similar situations around the world, whether we kill the current leaders or not.It seems to me that both sides currently engage in that behavior - radical Islamists see us as "the devil" while they are righteous, and we seem to do the same thing.I like the suggestion that we try to deal with underlying causes rather than simply reacting to events.

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Das_Ubermime 5 years, 8 months ago

Fangorn,I think you brash to assume the outcome of what would happen if the U.S. had entered WWII early. Your argument fails to appreciate the extent to which the American generals used the tactics that the German generals demonstrated in the first years of the war. Additionally, you also do not make allowances for the increased numbers of German troops without a distracting eastern front and the extent to which the Germans were more prepared (equipment, training, etc.) than the Allies.I think that the problem of Islamic extremism is more a cultural war with violent manifestations. I don't honestly think that one can win a cultural war with violence unless the entirety of one of the cultures is destroyed. This not being a desired course of action (considering the 1 billion Muslims), I think that the best way to combat extremism is through undermining the supporting demographic. In other words, if your opponent thrives on poverty and illiteracy, build schools and teach them how to be self-sufficient.

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small_fish_in_small_pond 5 years, 8 months ago

I'm still convinced that Bush created 9/11 for his selfish, and Cheney's, interests. or=$$$

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stillcoolandhere 5 years, 8 months ago

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Fangorn 5 years, 8 months ago

Mr. G: I had thought of an additional point, but I wanted to give you the opportunity to respond first. Since it's been nearly 2 hours and I'll be off-line soon, I'm going to make the post and try to check back later to see if you've gotten a chance to rebut.The US waited until December 1941 to get involved in WWII. If we had acted earlier, say Sept. 2, 1939, we might have prevented the National Socialists from conquering so much of Europe and establishing such a strong, defensible position on the Continent. The war might have been much less costly in lives and treasure had we faced the threat proactively. I think something similar could be said of the current threat of militant Islam. Although, again as you point out, the type of warfare in fighting a radical ideology is much different than fighting an established nation-state with borders and more precisely definable targets.Have a peaceful night, everyone, if I don't get back in later.

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RestoreReason 5 years, 8 months ago

"I hate that while our justice system is on the world stage our leaders are dismissing it."In most of the rest of the world, Hamdan would have been beheaded or imprisoned for life. Hamdan received far better treatment under our system of justice.

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malcolm_x_obama 5 years, 8 months ago

Akuna,You mean the lunacy of the leftist animal lover that would rather see a Kansas City idiot that tossed a kitten on the BBQ get two years while the mexican boyfriend that beats his girlfriends 10 day old daughter to death gets six months. That justice?You're a clown, apologize to Tom, it is you that is chastised.

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akuna 5 years, 8 months ago

I haven't read all of the comments so maybe someone has already chastised Tom Shewmon. What liberal are thinking is that we have a justice system that is supposed to be fair and impartial. True that it is neither, but that doesn't mean we liberals don't want it to be. I hate the fact that drug dealers get longer sentences than rapist or murders. I hate that while our justice system is on the world stage our leaders are dismissing it. I simply hate the Republican, I am better than thou, mentality.

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Fangorn 5 years, 8 months ago

Yes! That's more like it, Mr. G. You make good points. The state of the current Islamic world compared to 1930-40's German is, as you say, no comparison at all, although I wouldn't characterize them as Bronze Age, probably more like Medieval. However, I would like to point out the greater expanse of territory covered by the Muslim World, and the fact that Hilter's dream lasted only 15 years or so. The militant Islamists have already been around longer than that and don't look like they're going away soon. And you are correct again to say that they cannot mount a "traditional war". That is why they fight the way they do. And you must admit their impact has been disproportional to their apparent means to wage war. That's why it's called "asymmetrical warfare". The British, no doubt, had similar thoughts about the tactics of Francis Marion in the American War for Independence. The Swamp Fox was ulitmately successful. Your putative "bronze age civilization" may very well be, too, if they are not opposed.

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Clint Gentry 5 years, 8 months ago

Comparing radical Islam with Nazi Germany is a little trite...Hitler had already taken over most of Europe with advanced technology. There were world renowned scientists working for Hitler, they were a thoroughly modern people with the potential to make large bombs. Comparing a loosely knit group of radical religionists in no way matches up with what the Third Reich was, an outright war machine that seeked to control the world. Radical Islam is composed of under fed, undereducated, impoverished people. The fact that they had to use our technology against us is reason enough to believe that they are incapable of mounting any sort of traditional war. You ignore the magnitude of what Hitler really did when comparing him to bronze-age civilization.

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Fangorn 5 years, 8 months ago

"Hitler was trying to take over the world". He did this because of his delusions regarding the national greatness of the German people. Militant Islamists believe their god has told them to do this. Who will have the greater ferver for the task? Who will dissuade them from their goal? Again, I ask, how would you pacify this movement that wants to subjugate the world to the will of their god?

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Navin_R_Johnson 5 years, 8 months ago

fangorn and clint (i apologize at calling you anxious atheist), of course you do look alike in the digital world :)what's a PBC to do to get a little recognition around these here parts. but, then again, most people don't wanna talk to me cause i am after all, a jerk!peace!

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Navin_R_Johnson 5 years, 8 months ago

OK anxious atheist,(by the way your name makes me giggle, but that's another subject altogether),fair enough, but what you said was this:"Someone shooting a gun at another human "wants peace"? I don't think so fangorn:in the act of shooting at another human being, you, (by proxy), condone violence: you can't escape it. You murder? You're a murderer."my intent was to point out that your statment is not a universal axiom and that the right to self-defense is. context and precision in language is important when arguing such things. some folks are so obutse that they do not believe in the right to kill in self-defense, regardless of circumstance. i know a handful of peaceniks who believe such largely due to the fact that they've lived secured and protected lives under a blanket of protection they adolescently refused to acknowledge as it might disrupt their fantasy world and force them into a brushing glance with reality. so, in short, my self-defense argument does not "fall apart" merely because you failed to acknowledge it's existence prior to your attempt in making an axiomatic assertion. however, i am pleased to hear that you are not to that level of "wingnuttedness" and gladly withdraw my characterization of you as a "sissy boy."peace

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Clint Gentry 5 years, 8 months ago

Ah, now I remember Navin...a poor black child...

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Fangorn 5 years, 8 months ago

"The new phone books are here! The new phone books are here!" -Navin R. Johnson

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RestoreReason 5 years, 8 months ago

Clint:So you can't grow a mustache and you don't know who Navin Johnson is? I guess you're looking forward to starting junior high this week."As to exposing a picture of myself to a large group of obvious gun-nuts, I don't think so "RR", you won't use your name and I'm supposed to give a picture?"Then maybe you shouldn't question the manliness of others here.

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Clint Gentry 5 years, 8 months ago

Okay "navin", (I can't believe that's a real name), I'll bite...you are talking about self-defense, if a person is attempting to take your life, (or a loved ones), I have no issue with neutralizing the intruder, they are attempting to take away your rights, get them back. Now, attempting to tie this logic into the Iraq war is downright ridiculous. The invasion of Iraq had nothing to do with anybody trying to "take our rights". Iraq had no means, mind set or ability to attack the U.S., so your self-defense argument falls apart quickly "navin", (makes me giggle every time I say it!). This argument does hold though for WWII, Hitler was trying to take over the world, and had the means to do so, so I'm fine with that, a "noble" war so to speak, (there you go "fangorn") Unfortunately we haven't had another one of those since then. As to exposing a picture of myself to a large group of obvious gun-nuts, I don't think so "RR", you won't use your name and I'm supposed to give a picture? I'm not sure why you need a picture, as this is a war of ideas, but I assure you that I don't go to wright university, nor do I have a caterpillar under my nose...

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Fangorn 5 years, 8 months ago

Cato: You are the elder. I am the "eldest"! :)

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Fangorn 5 years, 8 months ago

Obviously this contentious debate has been going on for some time. It's too bad that name-calling (on both sides) seems to be such a staple of discussion.Again, Mr G., your convolution of a nebulous "religious extremism" and the reality of militant Islam strikes me as a deliberate obfuscation.And I have to point out: "to" is a preposition or part of an infinitive verb ("to the store", "to the point", "to debate", "to eat"); "two" is a number designating a pair of objects or ideas ("two sides to an agrument", "two candidates"); "too" is an adverb meaning also or excessive ("have cake and eat it too", "too many errors"). Or to put it all together "If it wouldn't be too much trouble, those two want to go to the store, too." Or have you not thought too deeply into basic English grammar?

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RestoreReason 5 years, 8 months ago

Clint:"But no, that's not me:"If, as you claim, that is not you, then you should have no problem with posting an actual photo of you. After all, it was you who accused others of not have the courage to stand behind their posts."The fact that you are only concerned with America's fight against religious extremism shows that you aren't one to think to deep into a problem. "They hate America!" "They hate our freedom!" Is the world really that simple to you?"Where have I ever said that? You're clearly make it up as you go. You're digging a deeper hole for yourself here.

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Clint Gentry 5 years, 8 months ago

That is funny "RR" where did you get that picture? If only I could grow a mustache like that...But no, that's not me...The fact that you are only concerned with America's fight against religious extremism shows that you aren't one to think to deep into a problem. "They hate America!" "They hate our freedom!" Is the world really that simple to you?

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Defender 5 years, 8 months ago

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Navin_R_Johnson 5 years, 8 months ago

anxiousatheist (Clint Gentry) says: "Someone shooting a gun at another human "wants peace"? I don't think so fangorn:in the act of shooting at another human being, you, (by proxy), condone violence: you can't escape it. You murder? You're a murderer." atheist, you're a munchkin. try that cowardly and obtuse logic on the following situation: a violent criminal breaks into your house in the middle of the night and attempts to kill your wife and kids and take what's yours and make it his. according to you, you wouldn't use that Model 29 .44 cal pistol on the night stand because in the act of justifiable defense you would be considered a "murderer" or (gasp) "not peaceful." i'm glad you ain't my dad. yer an intellectual dwarf, not to mention an unstable sissy boy too busy cowering to be worth anything when the s#it hits the fan.

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logicsound04 5 years, 8 months ago

Correct me if I'm wrong Mr. Gentry, but your inclusion of "higher-level animals" in the classification of "man" was a dig, right?RottedReason misses this and claims that my reading comprehension is suspect. Hilarious.

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Fangorn 5 years, 8 months ago

Oh, Mr. G. I foolishly hoped for better. But you've very much proven my point. I did no namecalling. I merely posted examples from your own earlier post, pointing out how ad hominem remarks seem to be your most frequent recourse. This only underscores the inherent weakness of your argument.And that was a clever slight of hand there, but having seen it before I will point it out. Our problem in the world today is not some undefined "radical religion" or some undifferentiated "[r]eligious zealotry", it is militant, radical Islam. And you're very correct: this problem goes back much farther back than the 1990s. Charles Martel recognized this at Tours in AD 732 when he stopped the advance of Islam's first invasion of Christian Europe. I pointed out those specific attacks to remind everyone how well the "law enforcement" approach of the Clinton (and possible Obama) administration worked at stopping terrorist attacks.As for saying "there is nothing moral about the military", I would agree that there is nothing inherently moral about the military, or any other organization for that matter. But I must ask you, were we wrong to fight against Hitler in WWII? If the military is wrong, isn't it always wrong?Finally, how would you "pacify" militant Islam? Your unwillingness to resist them certainly isn't going to change their intentions. But I suppose your rose-colored glasses keep you from seeing that as well.

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cato_the_elder 5 years, 8 months ago

Mr. Gentry, would you please answer my question about "higher level animals?"

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RestoreReason 5 years, 8 months ago

Clint:"Militant Islam has been at war with the US for years" - fangorn"For years? How about for 1000+ years?" - ClintIslam has been at war with the U.S. for 1000+ years? Okay, Einstein. I guess that's an example of your "objective truth."

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RestoreReason 5 years, 8 months ago

Clint:"Militant Islam has been at war with the US for years" - fangorn"For years? How about for 1000+ years?" - ClintonIslam has been at war with the U.S. for 1000+ years? Okay, Einstein. I guess that's an example of your "objective truth."

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RestoreReason 5 years, 8 months ago

Clint:I think if I looked like you, I wouldn't be questioning the manliness of others.http://www.wright.edu/~gentry.5/original.htmAnd was questioning my manliness an example of you making a rational and coherent argument?

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RestoreReason 5 years, 8 months ago

logicsound04:"For anyone who wasn't paying attention, RottedReason believes the idea of America standing for equality of man "laughable"."That's not exactly what Clint said, is it? There's that reading comprehension problem again. Have you considered seeking help for that?

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Clint Gentry 5 years, 8 months ago

"Militant Islam has been at war with the US for years" - fangornFor years? How about for 1000+ years? You think radical religion has only been a problem for us since 1993? You fail to grasp the full magnitude of what is going on. (By the way, don't chop up my posts and attempt to refute it with name calling). Religious zealotry will not be pacified with guns, or military or even economic means, these only add to the violence. "Do not assume that someone willing to fight a war doesn't want peace just as much as you." - fangornSomeone shooting a gun at another human "wants peace"? I don't think so fangorn...in the act of shooting at another human being, you, (by proxy), condone violence... you can't escape it. You murder? You're a murderer. I'm also sorry, but there is nothing moral about the military, they are hired killers, (hired by us the people), to kill others, nothing moral about that. But I suppose seeing through a pair of red-white-blue tinted glasses, anything is okay.

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logicsound04 5 years, 8 months ago

"If you went to Mass street and started telling people that's what America stands for, you would be laughed out of downtown."---------------For anyone who wasn't paying attention, RottedReason believes the idea of America standing for equality of man "laughable".Why do you find equality of man funny? Don't you believe all humans have equal standing? If not, then why are you such a bigot?

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Fangorn 5 years, 8 months ago

Sorry, Cato, I only read koine Greek. For me, Attic Greek is a little like trying to read Beowolf in its original language. ;)

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cato_the_elder 5 years, 8 months ago

Volkischer Beobachter, I'm sure that you think of the philosopher with the broad shoulders every time you post on this site. Just out of curiosity, how many of Plato's Dialogues have you read? How many have you read in the original Greek?

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cato_the_elder 5 years, 8 months ago

Mr. Gentry, do you really believe that "higher level animals" are "equal" to human beings? If so, in what sense are they "equal?"

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Fangorn 5 years, 8 months ago

"hatred for their fellow man", "ignorance to [sic] deep to ever recover", "petulant teenagers", "lazy in their fact checking", "incinsere [sic] regarding what they believe is real". And how are such descriptions not belittling to those with whom you disagree? Perhaps the kettle isn't the only thing that's black, Mr. Pot. Do not assume that someone willing to fight a war doesn't want peace just as much as you. Fighting back against someone who wants to destroy or subjugate you isn't a moral transgression, it's a moral imperative. Militant Islam has been at war with the US for years (WTC 1993, Khobar Towers 1996, African embassies 1998, USS Cole 2000), although many chose not to understand this. Perhaps such people suffer from "a hollow, numb, angry mind that will do anything to ignore the reality of the world they live in"?

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Clint Gentry 5 years, 8 months ago

Hey, "RR", why don't you be a man and put your name up under your B.S. moniker? We've seen you before and we know who you are, but it's obvious you aren't confident enough in your abilities to admit it. You think you're clever, you think you're making points, but if you were, why not stand behind you posts? Be a man Kevin, step up and BE A MAN...P.S.- your boy "cato" has been shut up since I answered his question...what you gonna do?

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duplenty 5 years, 8 months ago

"We're all laughing at you, Clint. You're a joke."Sez the author of "Sins of the Husband" and various articles featured in the Kaw Valley Senior Weekly.Irony so good that it hurts.

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RestoreReason 5 years, 8 months ago

Clint:"Anybody that doesn't agree with you must be a communist? Wow, talk about McCarthyism:"That would be an incorrect inference from my comment."You show the world what you are really made of with such drivel "RR". Your name calling in an attempt to debase rational argument is despicable at best, and only serves to draw attention away from your inability to provide a coherent argument."Any objective observer would note that the only people offered rational and coherent arguments on this forum are cato, Tom Shewmon, myself, and a handful of other conservatives/libertarians. The liberals on this forum rarely offer anything but factually incorrect and emotionally-charged "arguments.""As I stated at 8:10, your nihilism has given you an inability to see objective truth, as you don't believe there is such thing. Fortunately there are objective truths in the world, and you can accept them or not, but don't be surprised when you don't accept them you are laughed out of any real, coherent, rational conversation."We're all laughing at you, Clint. You're a joke.

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RestoreReason 5 years, 8 months ago

logicsound04:Haven't gotten your caffeine yet today?"Maybe you missed the part where Gentry answered cato's question directly and to the point:"You really considered that an "answer"? If you went to Mass street and started telling people that's what America stands for, you would be laughed out of downtown.As far as my Clinton administration comment, it was a response to BigAl's earlier comment in which he wrote: "Liberal or conservative, this is simply wrong in this country. If this were from the Clinton administration, the right-wingers would be going berserk!!!!!"You have yet again made yourself look foolish.

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Clint Gentry 5 years, 8 months ago

"I think Cato and I have a very good understanding about what America stands for. You and your comrades, however, appear to want America to stand for what the Soviet Union used to stand for. That system did not and cannot work." - restorereasonAnybody that doesn't agree with you must be a communist? Wow, talk about McCarthyism...You show the world what you are really made of with such drivel "RR". Your name calling in an attempt to debase rational argument is despicable at best, and only serves to draw attention away from your inability to provide a coherent argument. As I stated at 8:10, your nihilism has given you an inability to see objective truth, as you don't believe there is such thing. Fortunately there are objective truths in the world, and you can accept them or not, but don't be surprised when you don't accept them you are laughed out of any real, coherent, rational conversation.

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logicsound04 5 years, 8 months ago

Not surprisingly, RottedReason watches the point of the argument sail over the point on his head.Maybe you missed the part where Gentry answered cato's question directly and to the point...==========================="I don't recall right wingers going "berserk" when the Clinton administration conducted warrantless searches in public housing."-------------But, but Clinton....Careful Kev, you don't want to definitively "out" yourself. You've worked really hard at supressing your idiosyncracies and tendencies. You've gotten RottedReason all the way up to 562 posts.I'm impressed.

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RestoreReason 5 years, 8 months ago

Cato:"Mr. Gentry, please submit what you think America stands for in 150 words or less, and see whether you can do so without expressing hatred for President Bush and/or his administation. I wonder whether your hollow, numb, angry mind is capable of doing so."Apparently, it was not. I'm not surprised.

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RestoreReason 5 years, 8 months ago

BigAl:"Liberal or conservative, this is simply wrong in this country. If this were from the Clinton administration, the right-wingers would be going berserk!!!!!"I don't recall right wingers going "berserk" when the Clinton administration conducted warrantless searches in public housing.

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RestoreReason 5 years, 8 months ago

Clint Gentry:"There is just so many people out there with no understanding what America stands for"I think Cato and I have a very good understanding about what America stands for. You and your comrades, however, appear to want America to stand for what the Soviet Union used to stand for. That system did not and cannot work.

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jaywalker 5 years, 8 months ago

"the Bush administration was eavesdropping (spying) on reporters from the NY Times and the Washington Post?"And the FBI admitted it was soley because the reporters were involved in reporting on Islamic extremists from countries like Pakistan. Smells alot like McCarthyism.

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scott3460 5 years, 8 months ago

The bush doctrine in a nutshell:"We must keep jailing and executing terrorists and people who might someday become terrorists until the enemies of freedom & life are destroyed."An interesting stategy. Although jailing and executing people who might someday become terrorists, pretty much makes you a terrorist and enemy of freedom and life yourself.

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barrypenders 5 years, 8 months ago

The war on terror?Is that like "crying uncontrollably never taboo"?

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BigAl 5 years, 8 months ago

Tom Shewmon (Tom Shewmon) says: "What are liberals thinking? This is war, not ACLU feel good stuff."*************Tom, how does it sit with you that the Bush administration was eavesdropping (spying) on reporters from the NY Times and the Washington Post? At the same time, being critical of how the Chinese treat their press. Liberal or conservative, this is simply wrong in this country. If this were from the Clinton administration, the right-wingers would be going berserk!!!!!

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beobachter 5 years, 8 months ago

cato, made me think of you. guess which one?A quote from Plato that I think quite appropriate...."Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something."

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Clint Gentry 5 years, 8 months ago

WHAT AMERICA MEANS TO ME...By Clint. (as commissioned by Cato-the-older)"All men, (humans of all nationalities, and higher level animals), are created equal..." By Clint.P.S. - Cato, instead of copy and pasting my posts, explore the English language with your own abilities...

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cato_the_elder 5 years, 8 months ago

Mr. Gentry, please submit what you think America stands for in 150 words or less, and see whether you can do so without expressing hatred for President Bush and/or his administation. I wonder whether your hollow, numb, angry mind is capable of doing so.

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jafs 5 years, 8 months ago

Why haven't we "gotten" Bin Laden already?

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Clint Gentry 5 years, 8 months ago

There is just so many people out there with no understanding what America stands for...(restorereason, cato, etc.)...their hatred for their fellow man, (fueled by an ignorance to deep to ever recover), will march with one of the most incompetent leaders in modern history all the while belittling those that are trying to create a more peaceful world. In the minds of these "people" peace is war, love is hate and death is life. With thought processes that resemble those of petulant teenagers, they hide behind false monikers to hide the shame of their repeated efforts to worship a false idol. Besides being lazy in their fact checking, they are also incinsere regarding what they believe is real, as a form of nihilism has taken over, (like a disease that eats away the brain), and creates a hollow, numb, angry mind that will do anything to ignore the reality of the world they live in.

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RestoreReason 5 years, 8 months ago

Munchkin Merrill:Not even the defense disputed the charge that Hamdan was bin Laden's driver.

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Richard Heckler 5 years, 8 months ago

How does anyone know this person was a driver for bin laden? Who said so? White House journalism.

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RestoreReason 5 years, 8 months ago

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stillcoolandhere 5 years, 8 months ago

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RestoreReason 5 years, 8 months ago

Munchkin Merrill:How about staying on topic.

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stillcoolandhere 5 years, 8 months ago

Cato and kevin groanhaggen are spineless cowards.....LOLHow you like me now???

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not_dolph 5 years, 8 months ago

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prolifersforwar 5 years, 8 months ago

We must keep jailing and executing terrorists and people who might someday become terrorists until the enemies of freedom & life are destroyed.

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madmikesuxcox 5 years, 8 months ago

But....Clinton....but the libruls........Dog Dan it....I hate libruls.......I like my guns....beer and god!!!!

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madmikesuxcox 5 years, 8 months ago

I see that groanmaggot is babbling again....I wonder if he wants to rename Lake Clinton to Lake Reagan......Heck, I bet he even wants to ressuerect Nixon......

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Richard Heckler 5 years, 8 months ago

Big brother is everywhere in america and the world. How in the world could four large passenger jets simultaneously become victims of terrorist hijackers unless some very important people were not paying attention or ignoring information?

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RestoreReason 5 years, 8 months ago

Sorry, "submit it for submission" should have been "submit it for publication." I did my seven miles too close to noon today.

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Richard Heckler 5 years, 8 months ago

Retired General William Odom, who served as a national security adviser to President Ronald Reagan, spoke last Thursday to the Committee for the Republic in Washington, DC. He described the Iraq War as a historic blunder that the United States should end.An example of the positive role the U.S. empire plays is the re-unification of Germany. This was opposed by most of Europe but quiet behind-the-scenes discussions by the United States resulted in the re-unification being accepted. This was good for Europe and the world, but likely would not have occurred without U.S. influence.According to Odom, "The biggest threat to the U.S. empire is incompetent U.S. leadership." This brought the discussion to Iraq, which General Odom has described as a major foreign policy blunder.He was asked--if President Bush sought your advice on Iraq what would you say in a letter to him. Odom responded that he would tell the President that "he is losing in Iraq" and that he "has made the most strategic foreign policy disaster in U.S. history."To get out he suggests the President send Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to Europe ostensibly to talk about Kyoto. In reality, the purpose of the visit would be to say the President wants to meet with you in the Azores to discuss Iraq. Once a meeting is organized the President should tell other foreign leaders "I screwed up and am pulling out." He should make the point that the U.S. pulling out could make things worse for the region, Russia and the Far East because terrorists in Iraq will be freed up to go to other countries. The country least likely to be effected by this would be the United States. The President should seek the involvement of these countries in order to minimize the destabilization that might occur. Then he would instruct the Secretary of Defense to develop the logistics for getting out of Iraq.In order to bring stability to the region the best approach, according to Odom is to "develop an opening between the United States and Iran." The conflict with Iran needs to be turned on its head. The President should send a private delegation to Iran to explain our common interests. We should be willing to make concessions on the nuclear bomb--get the nuclear bomb off the table and begin to work with Iran to stabilize the region.

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Tom Shewmon 5 years, 8 months ago

What sorta strikes me is Tom Hoffman is upset about something Bush didn't really do. Just the mere thought of it upset him; the hallmark of the Bush Conspiracy Theorist Club......"what if" and the endless search for the "what ifs".Everyone has their hobby I suppose. And another thing, you are the driver of a bank robbery that involves some murders, you're in deep, deep doo-doo. But Bin Ladens' driver was..... "just a driver".........what a riot!!

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RestoreReason 5 years, 8 months ago

Munchkin Merrill:"Bush blew off the terrorists in favor of Iraq oil fields and a new pipleine going across Afghanistan."I think thousands of dead terrorists would disagree with your colossal nonsense.

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RestoreReason 5 years, 8 months ago

I can't believe anyone would write such an idiotic letter, let alone submit it for submission. Apparently, the letter writer wants us to believe that this terrorist merely drove around the CEO of al Qaeda from meeting to meeting. It's like arguing that the getaway driver for bank robbers should not be arrested or convicted because he was merely "the driver."The liberals get more stupid by the day.

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le 5 years, 8 months ago

only way 2 have bush justice...if airforce 1 falls from the sky in a fiery crash...ah ..now that would be divine intervention..wouldnt that be divine!

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i_tching 5 years, 8 months ago

Great. They got a cab driver. Feel safer now?As for the "if this war is about oil then why is it still expensive" fools- What? You thought the oil companies were going to steal Iraq's reserves and then just give them away?!Never ever ever follow the money. NEVER. It might make you do something awful, like change your mind.

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metta 5 years, 8 months ago

in summary a pretty weird response to 9/11 by the Bush administration. Take the country to war against Iraq - who we had a 30 year covert relationship with?

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metta 5 years, 8 months ago

i wonder what complete interrogation of Saddam Hussein would have yielded - about Don Rumsfeld,Ron Reagan, Herbert Walker Bush, the late William Casey, Richard Allen,(Carlyle Group board members: James Baker III, Frank Carlucci,Fred Male,Don Rumsfeld), and PNAC signatories Dick Cheney, Don Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz? or about former CEO of Enron Europe John Wing (CIA).i guess we will never know about a 'co-ordinated attack' upon Iraq's oil reserves by the Project for a New American Century (PNAC), the Carlyle Group (a private equity fund started with $8 billion of seed money by the late King Fahd, Herbert Walker Bush works for the Carlyle Group as a 'consultant'/ CG is the 9th largest defense subcontractor to the USA. And finally since Enron was never throughy investigated especially for Caspian area oil activities - what was John Wing's roleas CEO of Enron - a West Point grad CIA oil executive very unusual CEO background.

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cato_the_elder 5 years, 8 months ago

This letter is so absurd and convoluted that it's not difficult in the least to figure out exactly what the letter writer's self-serving, political motivation is.

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Jason Bailey 5 years, 8 months ago

Merrill: You're not alone here when I call a spade a spade -- the ignorance and rush to pin your hate to one man is astounding.If all of this was for oil (and Bush feeding money to his friends in big oil) where are the low prices at the pump? A huge supply of oil from a new pipeline across Afghanistan and oil out of Iraq should be dumping enormous supplies on the market but they're not. Once again, your side is shown who you are via your asinine remarks with absolutely no fact to back them up.How has the Bush administration failed America? I can list many ways but I'm sure they're not the same as your list; however, you simply throw mud with no support. Typical of garden-variety liberals who are filled with hate and venom.And who says war for oil is not patriotic? Was war to rid Japanese from the Pacific rim a patriotic form of death for our men after it was established that the US homeland was safe from further aggression? Why all the death during the Somolian conflict of the late-90s? How was that patriotic for our men and women? Patriotism is definitely in the eye of the beholder and way too susceptible to interpretation. Interpretation of the word "patriotic" by secular progressives is almost inevitably related to "diplomacy, peace, engaging in a round of 'I'd like to teach the world to sing...', and otherwise thinking like a Democrat." If anyone has a different view of patriotism, they're simply told they're wrong. I challenge how any death in any war (outside of the Revolutionary War or the War of 1812) can truly be considered "patriotic" according to the Liberal definition.

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jaywalker 5 years, 8 months ago

Yeah, he was JUST a driver. Cop a clue.I definitely don't like holding the accused indefinitely, we are America and any practice remotely like that sounds more like a backwards Burmese or Guatamalan tactic. But I don't understand why so many feel these people should benefit from the habeas corpus of our judicial system. They are POW's, or enemy combatants, or 'alleged' combatants, and yes, I would find it easy to believe that some are probably innocent. But has any country ever projected their 'rights' onto foreigners in foreign conflicts? Being sincere here, would love someone's opinion on why we should afford them the benefits and rights an American citizen covets. Shouldn't these go before military tribunals?

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Richard Heckler 5 years, 8 months ago

Bush blew off the terrorists in favor of Iraq oil fields and a new pipleine going across Afghanistan. Bush has been terrorizing the Iraq people for several years now. Our president deserves jail time. Too bad McCain feels another 50 years of HIS government terrorizing the mideast would be satisfactory. That kind of thinking DOES NOT represent the USA.I still say if Bush had been paying attention 9/11/01 and Osama would not be a topic of discussion today. Face it the Bush administration failed america which has resulted in more than 4000 dead military citizens and tens of thousands disabled american military citizens. Probably hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraq men,women and children are dead because Bush failed america.How do we know that person declared as the driver is the driver for Osama? If this person is the driver where did Osama go? Bush is better known for lies than truth!Bring the Troops Home! War for oil IS NOT patriotic!

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Tom Shewmon 5 years, 8 months ago

I don't think most people really care what justice is dispensed on the guy. I don't think most people like liberals wanting to give them attornies and have trials for them like they are an American citizen who murdered someone.What are liberals thinking? This is war, not ACLU feel good stuff. Please stop!!

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logrithmic 5 years, 8 months ago

The Bush administration has been the most lawless of any in my lifetime. Most of its so-called "the war on terror" or TWOT is a menagerie of illegal activity aimed primarily at the American people. But when its aimed at foreigners it borders on war crimes. People should be aware that there are people right here in this country who have been accused of terrorism, acquitted by juries, and are still being held indefinitiely by Beezlebush, in complete violation of our laws.http://www.alternet.org/rights/79107/not_guilty,_but_jailed_for_five_years:_al-arian's_third_hunger_strike_under_way/

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christy kennedy 5 years, 8 months ago

"What are these people thinking? Are they thinking?"It's all so absurd and convoluted that it's nearly impossible to even figure out what their self-serving, political motivations might be from one moment to the next.

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TheOriginalCA 5 years, 8 months ago

This letter is busch league... please write this same letter to the New York Times. Be sure to put your name address and phone number with it.

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