Details of Taser incident emerge / LJWorld.com

Archive for Thursday, April 3, 2008

Man suspected of having head injury shocked three times, died soon after

April 3, 2008

New information about the death of a Lawrence man

Shawnee County Sheriff Dick Barta says deputies responded to the Goodyear Plant late Saturday night for a medical emergency. Enlarge video

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A tree dedication and candlelight vigil for Walter Edward Haake Jr. will be at 7:30 p.m. Sunday at Clinton Lake State Park, according to Sonny Scroggins, a Topeka community activist who has had numerous demonstrations urging better training for police in handling nonthreatening situations and mentally ill patients.

For more information, call Scroggins at (785) 845-6148 or (785) 232-3761.

Topeka — It started as a call to the Shawnee County Sheriff's Office late Saturday night for help in getting medical attention to a 59-year-old employee at the Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co. plant, officials said Wednesday.

Plant employees said Walter Edward Haake Jr., of Lawrence, seemed disoriented and may have had a head injury. They didn't think it would be safe for him to drive, they said.

A little more than an hour later, Haake was dead. He had been stunned with a Taser three times by a sheriff's deputy, then handcuffed before he collapsed.

"The intent was to get this person helped," said Shawnee County Sheriff Dick Barta at a news conference. "I don't know if the Taser caused" his death, Barta said.

He said the deputies had already taken away Haake's keys for his white Jeep.

Barta said he didn't want to second guess at this point why one of the deputies resorted to the Taser, but said the matter was the subject of two separate investigations.

He said Tasers are only supposed to be used in extreme situations, but added, "Every situation is different. There is no way you can address every situation." He said the two deputies who were involved in the incident - whom he did not identify - remain on duty and have had unblemished records.

Outside the news conference, a friend of Haake's carried a sign protesting the use of a Taser.

"You can't take the lazy way out and tase people when they just sit in their car and do nothing," said John McNown. "They should've called a more qualified person to handle that situation," he said.

The Taser stun gun was applied to Haake three times, delivering 1,200 volts each time, Barta said.

"The first two times was two seconds each, and the third time was a little longer than that, maybe four seconds," Barta said.

Deputies were trying to get Haake out of his vehicle and into a waiting ambulance, he said. But Haake didn't want to get medical attention and was uncooperative, he said.

After the third time, there was a "brief physical confrontation" and Haake was handcuffed, Barta said. Then Haake became unresponsive and was taken by the ambulance to a hospital where he was pronounced dead shortly afterward, Barta said.

The Taser was used in the "Drive Stun" capacity, where the Taser is held against the person without firing a cartridge, and is intended to cause pain without incapacitating the person, officials said.

The Shawnee County coroner is conducting an investigation to determine the cause of death.

A woman who answered the telephone at Haake's residence said the family didn't want to comment.

McNown, who worked at Goodyear with Haake, said he didn't witness the incident but couldn't understand why the deputies decided to use the Taser since they had already kept Haake from leaving by taking away his keys.

"How does it go from not being able to go anywhere to death?" he asked.

Discussion

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3 April 2008
at 2:12 a.m.

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igby (Anonymous) says…

Sometimes good cops make mistakes. Tasering a 59 year old without knowing if the person has a heart condition or a pacemaker or a brain tumor can cause death. He had the right to refuse medical care and they killed him. They violated his civil rights in the worse way. They should of backed off and they did not because they were pissed at him for not cooperating or doing what they expected him to do. He did not call them or ask for help. Tasers are bad business. It gives the cops something they can use on you without being judged. They can't beat you or club you with a night stick anymore. Giving them tasers allows them to taser anyone for any reason; if you piss them off, don't cooperate, run, hide, any reason under the sun. However, sometimes its needed and sometime its not. If a cop tasering you is found to be unlawful, they should have to pay you $25,000. If they kill you unlawfully, $25,000,000 (million). This would put a stop to careless uses of tasers by police. If they taser someone and do not have video to back it up they should have to pay.Had these co-workers not called for medical assistance he may have survived .
3 April 2008
at 2:15 a.m.

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igby (Anonymous) says…

Cell phones have video camera's now, they should use them.
3 April 2008
at 2:42 a.m.

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toefungus (Anonymous) says…

This is just evil.
3 April 2008
at 3:13 a.m.

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hornhunter (Anonymous) says…

igby, You need to back the f#*% off the co-workers, they had nothing to do with this mans death….. They were just looking out for his well being. Hope you never need help from co-workers, the only call you would get is 1-800-eat-$hit.
3 April 2008
at 3:50 a.m.

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skinnee11 (Anonymous) says…

Whoa there, HornHunter, settle down cowboy. I'm pretty sure that Igby wasn't implying that Mr. Haake's co-workers are to blame for his unfortunate death. I think Igby was merely stating that if the co-workers hadn't done the right thing, then things may have turned out different. Although a tough situation, I personally applaud the co-workers for making the decision to help prevent a friend from injuring himself. Now, if it hadn't been for those jumpy Sheriff's…well…I'm just sayin'.
3 April 2008
at 5:14 a.m.

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Oracle_of_Rhode (Anonymous) says…

This sounds pretty much like using a cattle prod on an obviously sick man.
3 April 2008
at 7:27 a.m.

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scary_manilow (Anonymous) says…

skinnee:”Had these co-workers not called for medical assistance he may have survived .”The implication here is pretty durned obvious, if you ask me. Mr. Igby needs to focus his angst towards the appropriate parties— namely, T-town's thuggish, submental police force— and leave the co-workers alone.

3 April 2008
at 8:02 a.m.

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Take_a_letter_Maria (Anonymous) says…

I agree with McKnown. They already had his keys. He wasn't going to go anywhere. If they couldn't talk him into getting checked by the medical staff, the deputies should have called in a negotiator. Or how about calling the man's family to see if they can talk some sense into him. There are certainly a lot of things they could have done before using a taser.
3 April 2008
at 8:03 a.m.

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BABBOY (Anonymous) says…

I live in Topeka. I have been following this and am appauled by it.It appears from what I read the sheriff (it was not Topeka TPD but the County) was call AFTER the man starting having a heart attack. There were EMT people there and more then one deputy. I think everyone knew this was not a man resisting arrest but a man who was having some sort reaction to a medical situation. They tazed him THREE times and appear to have known it was either a heart attack or siezure. Three flipping times.Today, in the Topeka paper, and this is the kicker to me, they had the man's keys. he was not driving anywhere. They tazed him solely to restrain him and not to stop him from driving.Tazers have a place for criminals that are resisting arrest. This man was someone's dad or loved one. He was having a heart attack. Tazers are not meant for this situation. Anyone who cannot see that obvious fact is simply not a being objective and trying to hard to excuse the deputy (which I understand the basis but this fact pattern is just too much). If you really think this ok and it not just some delusional attempt to offer excuse for the deputy who made this mistake, then I question the worth of any such person because this is the kind of thing that happens in NAZI germany, the Soviet Union. or some other kind of evil thoughtless state.I will tell you plain. This is not the American I learned about in school. I was taught that the police and the emergency people where supposed to help those in need. They are not suppose to zapp me with electricity three times and KILL me when I am having a heart attack.
3 April 2008
at 8:05 a.m.

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OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…

“This sounds pretty much like using a cattle prod on an obviously sick man.”You know, it seems we are as quick to pull the trigger as the Shawnee Co. Sheriff's dept.What WAS known by the deputies: he was disoriented and needed restraint, and combative.What was NOT known by the deputies: possible head injury (we are still speculating) and a heart condition.I have a friend who's father suffers from some serious health issues after a beating by the cops some 50 years ago. Tasers protect citizens from such beatings. Every now and then, someone with a health condition ends up dead, but tragic, brutal beatings are no longer “departmental policy” because of the less-lethal Tasers. Considering the FACTS known to the deputies at the time, I don't see how we can be so quick to condemn their actions.
3 April 2008
at 8:08 a.m.

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THX1138 (Anonymous) says…

scary_manilow, any thuggish incidents you can share? This isn't a “dig”…I'm genuinely curious of what your experience has been.
3 April 2008
at 8:13 a.m.

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Godot (Anonymous) says…

From the way this story reads, he was not combative until he had been tazed twice. At that point, if I was already confused and disoriented for medical reasons, I would certainly defend myself.
3 April 2008
at 8:23 a.m.

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jonas (Anonymous) says…

'A little more than an hour later, Haake was dead. He had been stunned with a Taser three times by a sheriff's deputy, then handcuffed before he collapsed.'”The intent was to get this person helped,” Ohhhh… . . this really makes my head hurt… . .
3 April 2008
at 8:24 a.m.

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WHY (Anonymous) says…

It only takes a high school degree to become a police officer, and so often it shows. There is no way a private company would hire people to have the power police have with so little education. I have witnessed lpd officers many times act like complete morons and guess what, now they have tasers. This story will be in lawrence next.
3 April 2008
at 8:36 a.m.

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jonas (Anonymous) says…

WHY (Anonymous) says:”It only takes a high school degree to become a police officer”I imagine it has to do with supply versus demand. So few people probably want to become cops, that they can't raise the standards without having a shortage. A real question is, are there any further education requirements to become an officer? The grunts can largely just be told what to do, I imagine, but the officers need to be able to think about these things before they happen.

3 April 2008
at 8:52 a.m.

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KLATTU (Anonymous) says…

I'm sure there are more qualified people than me to judge their actions, but the story I've read so far makes the police look really bad. Sounds like there were many eye witnesses, and I'm sure there were numerous video cameras running. Hopefully it shouldn't be too hard to figure out if the deputies reacted appropriately.I know it's not the same police force, but it's very frustrating for me to read that the police can't do a thing to shut down a known drug and weapons hang out like the Last Call, but they can show up to a medical call and taz an old man. It's like we've got no rights until we become criminals.
3 April 2008
at 8:57 a.m.

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srj (Anonymous) says…

It all sounds bad to me. I can't even make the case for the police that he was a danger to people driving on the road because they took his keys already.I hope to hear the police side of the story to get the full case.
3 April 2008
at 9:10 a.m.

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topflight (Anonymous) says…

Damn, how did most of you people get access to the autopsy report already? As far as I know it isnt even out. Oh wait, you dont have access to it. That's right, you have no clue how he died. Jumping to conclusions is what you type of people like to do in the situations. It is easier for you to judge the police and call for their heads. You do their job, see how easy it really is. Wait till the autopsy report comes out, you will see the taser was not to blame. Get informed, the taser does not affect the heart like you all think.
3 April 2008
at 9:13 a.m.

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smitty (Anonymous) says…

It sure doesn't take long for the forum to rewrite the events. OldEnuf2BYurDad, the news papers have stated that the EMT had tried to talk Mr Haake out of the car. There is no way that the officer could not know it was a medical call, first and foremost.A sad rerun of our own LE forcing a depressed man from a locked bedroom before killing him without so much as asking one single question except how to unlock the door. What the hell is wrong with LE that they can't communicate effectively? It gets harder and harder for LE to deny incompetence and lack of training as we expensively equip them with devices that leave no doubt that the mistake is the judgement of the officer.As far as pay and education is concerned….by the time you take the base pay and all the benefits into consideration, not a bad job for a GED education requirement. Definely better than most of the populace. Of course there is the stress of playing CYA due to the code of silence. The fear that the man in charge will not be able to cover up your perjury if you get challenged, and the ever present stress of being framed for inside politics if you do blow the whistle on illegal internal happenings. Maybe then it isn't such a good job .What are the policies for taser use in Topeka and Shawnee County? There is no consistent standard, law, or training for taser use in our country. Each department is left up to their own to create standards. The way this is looking, the officer had no idea of the dangers for elderly, heart conditions, and the frail. Even if Mr Haake wasn't any of the aforementioned health risks for taser, the situation did not merit use of force, night stick, or phsical force. Haake was within his legal rights to refuse transport. After an hour of prolong stress on a man who was supposedly unable to drive himself it seems apparent that Haake was better off driving himself than dealing with the system.
3 April 2008
at 9:18 a.m.

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JSpizias (Anonymous) says…

I don't know about KU Police, however, KUMC police carry them. I always found it kind of scary, especially in view of the court case described below. I find it very interesting that most people aren't concerned about police officers carrying guns but some can go nuts over carry of weapons by trained civilians.This is a court case filed by an individual who was discrimininated against because he was “too smart” for the job of police officer.Jordan v. City of New London, 2000 U.S. App. LEXIS 22195 (1st Cir. 8/23/2000) - Plaintiff, a 46 year old male, applied to be a police officer in the City of New London. He scored a 33 on the Wonderlic test, given pre-employment by the department. This test score correlates with an IQ of 120-125. Based on information provided by the test designer, the City disqualified applicants who scored over a 27, on the basis that they would be overqualified and hence become dissatisfied in their job. Despite the fact that statistical evidence showed that this premise was not necessarily true, the Court found the City's belief in the premise not to be “irrational.” The Court therefore found that the City's rejection of Plaintiff not to constitute an equal protection violation (based on his age, as alleged in the complaint) and granted summary judgment to the City. Ananova: Police reject candidate for being too intelligentA US man has been rejected in his bid to become a police officer for scoring too high on an intelligence test.Robert Jordan, a 49-year-old college graduate, took an exam to join the New London police, in Connecticut, in 1996 and scored 33 points, the equivalent of an IQ of 125.But New London police interviewed only candidates who scored 20 to 27, on the theory that those who scored too high could get bored with police work and leave soon after undergoing costly training.Mr Jordan launched a federal lawsuit against the city, but lost.The 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in New York upheld a lower court's decision that the city did not discriminate against Mr Jordan because the same standards were applied to everyone who took the test.He said: “This kind of puts an official face on discrimination in America against people of a certain class. I maintain you have no more control over your basic intelligence than your eye color or your gender or anything else.”He said he does not plan to take any further legal action and has worked as a prison guard since he took the test.The average score nationally for police officers is 21 to 22, the equivalent of an IQ of 104, or just a little above average.
3 April 2008
at 9:33 a.m.

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smitty (Anonymous) says…

“RE; autopsy…if you are in Lawrence an autopsy doesn't mean sh!t.Coroner Moddrell perjured by drawing the paths of the bullets in the LPD killing of Sevier to assist in the cover up by Olin and DA Flory. One of the bullet paths is described by ME Kriss Sperry as entering the fourth rib at the sternum and stopping at the left posterior position of the 10th rib which is a sharp downward path from the center chest thru the heart to the left side last long rib. Moddrell drew this bullet path from the sternum to the axilla area which is from the center chest to the arm pit. 90 degrees off!! perjury!Another bullet path was described by Sperry as entering the 5th intercostal on the right side, grazing the right side of the liver, passing through the hepatic flexure(large intestine turn just below the liver next to the rib cage) and stopping in the perineal cavity. That is a sharp downward path from just blow the right armpit and travelling just inside the rib cage to the liver then thru the large colon's hepatic flexure. Moddrell drew this path from the 5th intercostal to the lower area of the sternum which is about 90 degrees off. prejury again. An autopsy for a police offence is not necessarily a truthful appraisal of the cause of death.
3 April 2008
at 9:40 a.m.

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Crossfire (Anonymous) says…

Guaranteed that when the investigation is complete that it will be determined the use of the Taser had no effect on the patients inevitable death.”Trust me I am here to help you.” Shawnee County Sheriffs Officer
3 April 2008
at 9:41 a.m.

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TheYetiSpeaks (Anonymous) says…

The officer's are irrelevant. The issue is the Taser. Tasers need to be classified as a possibly lethal weapon and the rules governing their use need to be adjusted to be similar with the rules for using firearms. If the police simply would have manhandled this gentleman out of his car, would he still be alive?

3 April 2008
at 9:49 a.m.

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WHY (Anonymous) says…

Topflight. I don't give a damn how he died. He should not have been tasered. If a police officer tased me on a medical call I would sue the department for every penny they have. The cop should be fired, NOW.
3 April 2008
at 9:50 a.m.

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daddax98 (Anonymous) says…

In one breath topflight says “Jumping to conclusions is what you type of people like to do in the(se) situations” and in the next says “:the taser was not to blame” Irony thy name is topflight
3 April 2008
at 9:50 a.m.

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blue73harley (Anonymous) says…

The main point that bothers me is that why was he not allowed to refuse medical treatment? Maybe he was combative because he didn't want to get in the ambulance? I would like to know if the officers offered him an alternative to the ambulance like a simple ride home. That is what this armchair cop would have done.
3 April 2008
at 9:51 a.m.

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moo (Anonymous) says…

Even if it is determined that the taser didn't kill him, that the man was dying anyway, should he have been forced to spend his last minutes in pain being repeatedly shocked and finally handcuffed by the people paid to protect him? Now, it is possible, perhaps even likely considering we are reading the LJworld, that this story is misleading in some way. It is possible that reasons for the tasing will come out. However, if this is article represents the truth of the situation, this man's rights were severely violated. That violation may have caused his death or it may not have, but either way it is wrong. He had a right not to get treatment and not to get in the ambulance. He did not have a right to drive and endanger others, but it appears that that situation had already been prevented.Condolences to the family, I can't imagine what you are going through right now.
3 April 2008
at 10:04 a.m.

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coolmom (Anonymous) says…

i dont know what happened at the scene and neither do any of you, i am sure it will all come out in the wash but i have to say that i have a younger brother who in his late teens and early 20's was pretty wild and drinking drugs etc. he had several run ins with officers and spit on them struggled etc. they tased him twice in 2 different situations and i am thankful they did as he is a big guy and a danger to the officers in the state he was in. i am thankful they didnt just shoot him. i think the greater portion of officers are trying to do a hard job in an increasingly violent and uncaring world. read the news…doesnt it sound bad? they are the first line and human. that said i am sorry for everyone involved and their families.
3 April 2008
at 10:06 a.m.

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daddax98 (Anonymous) says…

I think we all know that the cop got frustrated that this doddering old fool was wasting his time when he could be out stopping real criminals. I get that. if I were in that situation I would be thinking of the most time effective way to resolve this situation. Can't beat him about the neck and shoulders, not appropriate to shoot him. I got it, lets give him a little zap that'll get him moving and I can get out of here. See it worked! ……… Oh Crud!You know, pepper spray sucks (e.g. it works) and if they would have pepper sprayed him they might have caught some flack but they would not have a dead body on their hands. Tazers are not harmless and LE needs to fully realize that. There is no way in #ell that these deputies wanted to injure this man. But when someone dies as a direct or indirect result of your actions you will bare some level of culpability, intent will only mitigate not completely absolve.
3 April 2008
at 10:10 a.m.

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daddax98 (Anonymous) says…

sorry that should have read (i.e. it works)
3 April 2008
at 10:36 a.m.

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pace (Anonymous) says…

I hope they learn to use these lethal weapons, It is horrible for the family and coworkers to lose this man this way. His “accidental” murder may prevent a few others being helped by the police for a while, Then they will find it more convenient to subdue the recalcitrant subject again, and learn the lesson again.

3 April 2008
at 10:49 a.m.

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frwent (Anonymous) says…

One of the things that really amazes me is the tazer. We hear stories on the evening news about how we should not torture terrorist suspects, about how international agreements are in place regarding torture, yet we let the cops have these types of weapons. There have been plenty of recent events, even right here in little ole Larryville, of the incompatance of police officers causing death to indicate that we as a citizenry are in dire danger of these roaming thugs. If the Topeka city government is as irresponsible and disconected from reality as the Lawrence city government, this is no surprise to me. We have an entrenched bureaucracy at city hall that refuses to make themselves aware of the dangers that lurk within some city departments, and such incidents as this unnecessary death at the hands of thug cops are bound to happen. If you give these weapons to cops who must deal with a lot of crap, and who are really unfit or unqualified for this duty, then people will die,. It has happened here. The real culprits are lily-livered elected officials who come to commission meetings, drink their late's and eat their organic salads and ignore the real problems shucking them off to unaccountable and unresponsible “city staff”. This sort of thing is going to continue to happen and it is not “if” but “when” it happens in Lawrence, the scene is set and the time is right for such a disaster and continuing to proceed with the present system is a guarantee of these types of events.
3 April 2008
at 11:11 a.m.

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Pywacket (Anonymous) says…

In most cases, I find myself standing firmly behind law enforcement personnel. Barring any revelatory evidence coming to light in this case, however (such as “he pulled a handgun and leveled it at the officers”), the only phrase that comes to mind when I read about these “officers'” conduct is, “Jackbooted thugs!”The problem is not the taser (or the service revolver or the sap). The problem is the individual “trained” and trusted by the community to know when and how to use such force. Fire their a$$e$. They are a disgrace to law enforcement.The family should sue—and probably will.
3 April 2008
at 11:16 a.m.

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jafs (Anonymous) says…

Shouldn't the officer be suspended or on leave pending an investigation?
3 April 2008
at 11:19 a.m.

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akt2 (Anonymous) says…

If a person is sick or injured the chances that their mental status is altered are very real. They don't know what they are saying or doing sometimes. If it is obvious that they need a medical evaluation, the police and the medics can not just walk away because the person refuses treatment. Physical restraint is usually what happens. En route to the hospital, and then at the hospital. It happens everyday. They should have been able to do this without a taser.
3 April 2008
at 11:27 a.m.

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HootyWho (Anonymous) says…

I've seen footage of people getting Tazed, i'm still amazed that nobody else has been killed by them,,,,I'm fairly ignorant of Amps and Volts, but that seems to be a lot of electricity shooting through somebody.I'm thinking that the deputies in this case just wanted this guy to do “what they told him to do” NOW. If he had no keys, he wasn't going anywhere, it sounds like he wasn't much of a threat, and maybe should have been given a little more time, It could be that he might have died of whatever was making him disoriented anyway, but tazing him surely didn't help
3 April 2008
at 11:33 a.m.

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OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…

“There is no way that the officer could not know it was a medical call”All the cops knew was that the ambulance had been called. This doesn't suggest that anyone actually knew the man's medical condition… only that someone called 911 because they (an ordinary Joe like you and me) figured it was medically related.My point stands: the cops didn't know his medical condition. i could call an ambulance right now, and when they got here I could ask them to remove my raised mole. The presence of an ambulance doesn't mean anything.
3 April 2008
at 11:54 a.m.

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foodboy (Anonymous) says…

While the incident inTopeka is tragic, we should focus on the use of tasers in Lawrence by the LPD and the Sheriff's Dept. LPD has a written policy, but there isn't a very open and clear policy on reporting to the commission. Internal review by the department raises too many questions. There needs to be outside review for Taser use as well as for use of a gun. See :http://www.lawrenceks.org/web_based_agendas/2008/01-22-08/01-22-08h/pd_tazer_policy.html
3 April 2008
at 12:20 p.m.

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LogicMan (Anonymous) says…

It would be interesting to serve on the juries — to hear all the evidence, including that which will never make it into the media.Co-workers “They were just looking out for his well being.”Yes, but they may have trampled his civil rights. You _can_ refuse medical treatment (if not certain communicable diseases), and within limits have the right to be left alone. And then taking his keys away (coworkers?) and blocking his car sounds like it might have been illegal detainment (false citizens' arrest).Once he hit the road, the police could have easily followed him. If he then violated traffic laws, the police would have been justified to stop him. But he wasn't allowed to exercise his right of passage.It seems likely to me that this will end up as a Federal civil rights case, if the family/estate feels wronged by their loss. Contacting the U.S. Attorneys General office would be a logical step for them.

3 April 2008
at 12:36 p.m.

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tom_bodett (Anonymous) says…

I think we need to be careful about taking these taser's away from officer so quickly. The problem is lethal force situations will rise, officer injruies will rise, and suspect injuries and deaths will rise. I know the Taser appears to be a brutal weapon. I have been voluntarily exposed to this weapon, and it was the worst expeirence of my life. But it is so effective at stopping a combative person, there is nothing else like it. If we tell officer's not to use it unless lethal force is justified, then what is the point. They would use thier firearms in that situation anyway, not a taser. It is easy to jump on the police bashing bandwagon, but it is not easy to be a cop these days. That is why no one wants to do it. Can you blame them?? Just read these comments!! In this particular incident, I do not believe the taser caused this man's death, however, I am not saying the deputies used the weapon correctly. But then again, I was not there.
3 April 2008
at 12:47 p.m.

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ralphralph (Anonymous) says…

OMG, I hadn't really read this! They tased him because he wouldn't get in the ambulance? I know cops have a tough job, but jeezlooeeze! If there was an ambulance there, I assumed it was staffed, with people having some sort of medical training, and with radios and cell phones to consult with more experienced medical staff. Why did the cops not back of and let the medics take over? It's not a crime to be sick, I don't think.I'll look forward to the news conference when Pedro Irigonegaray announces he's representing the family.As you once put it, Pete, Make 'em bleed green.
3 April 2008
at 12:52 p.m.

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Haiku_Cuckoo (Anonymous) says…

Once he hit the road, the police could have easily followed him. If he then violated traffic laws, the police would have been justified to stop him. But he wasn't allowed to exercise his right of passage.=============If he wouldn't comply with their order to step out of the car, what makes you think that he would willingly pull over? His “right of passage” may have resulted in a head-on collision with people on the road and resulted in multiple deaths. Don't get me wrong, it was unnecessary to tase him, but they were absolutely correct in preventing an impaired person from driving.
3 April 2008
at 12:53 p.m.

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rodentgirl16 (Anonymous) says…

daddax98,It was actually a female sheriff who tazed him, according to cjonline. It also stated that he was believed to have a non-work related concussion from falling down some stairs. I don't know how many people have been around someone with a concussion, but they often act like they are out of their mind and are completely irrational. The coworkers called the ambulance because of the head inury. How can they justify tasing him knowing that he had a possible concussion? The EMTs and police involved used very poor judgement no matter how you look at it.
3 April 2008
at 1 p.m.

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n8n2010 (Anonymous) says…

Here's a fun video.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck3iNnvnjnk
3 April 2008
at 1:04 p.m.

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n8n2010 (Anonymous) says…

This one is even better!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOVku86WfVg
3 April 2008
at 1:15 p.m.

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mcjrvc04 (Anonymous) says…

To protet my family I will not say much but here is the deal, what they did is wrong, he was not hurting anybody and if they had him blocked in and they had his keys well its kind of hard to go any where. Only trying to help thats a load of Sh**. Take the tazers away we dont need them and in this case it was used in the wrong way. They now killed a good man. They took away a brother, a husband, a father, a grandfather, and an uncle. The only good i see out of this is now my uncle is with the heavenly father and a lot better place then this world we live in.
3 April 2008
at 1:24 p.m.

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akt2 (Anonymous) says…

Maybe the medics will shed some light on what happened. They certainly would have been able to determine if the person needed to be transported. Someone here said the man had fallen down some stairs and had a concussion. It could have been a closed head injury including bleeding of the brain, or a skull fracture. Either of those can kill you if treatment is delayed. The taser was uncalled for. But I am starting to think that was not what caused him to die.

3 April 2008
at 1:35 p.m.

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cknajsmeemaw (Sheila Couchman) says…

I have been reading all these comments and nodding my head. Anyone has the right to refuse medical treatment in this country! Who in the H… do these so called law enforcement people think they are?! They need to do some serious psychological testing on anyone they allow to carry a tazer. Some cops have the attitude that everyone has to do things exactly as they want it and will get crazy if they don't.
3 April 2008
at 2:38 p.m.

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tom_bodett (Anonymous) says…

cknajsmeemaw”Anyone has the right to refuse medical treatment in this country.”So does that mean a suicidal person who wants to die and has seriously injrued themselves can refuse treatment and the cops will go on thier marry way?? There have been instances in my line of work that someone seriously injured is combative and does not want treatment. I think common sense comes into play in that situation. If the injury or illness is life threatening, shouldn't treatment be given anyway.By the way, Taser International has a team of lawyers whose only job is to prove a Taser is not deadly. Thousands of cops get voluntariy shot with the Taser during training. If it was so dangerous, why would they go through that??
3 April 2008
at 2:47 p.m.

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devieh (Anonymous) says…

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/04… quickly became unresponsive and they performed CPR for 20 minutes before they removed his handcuffs. ”
3 April 2008
at 2:51 p.m.

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Haiku_Cuckoo (Anonymous) says…

Anyone has the right to refuse medical treatment in this country.===========Sure…if that person is coherent. Reports suggest that this man may have had a head injury. If a person has impaired judgment due to a head injury, should their refusal of medical treatment be treated the same way?
3 April 2008
at 4:10 p.m.

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LA_Ex (Anonymous) says…

Yes, anyone is able to refuse medical treatment. However there are circumstances where this doesn't apply. One of those is If the person is suicidal/homicidal they can't refuse care. If the person has a life threatening condition, but is coherent and is able to understand the ramifications of declining care, they can refuse care.
3 April 2008
at 4:34 p.m.

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JSpizias (Anonymous) says…

Events such as this one occur all too frequently with police and their tasers. Take a look at the video below of a traffic stop of a man and his pregnant wife. In the Utah case it cost law enforcement (the taxpayers) $40,000 for the actions of the officer, although he was “cleared” of any wrong doing. Was there any video of the events with Haake? I'll bet it will cost taxpayers a great deal more in this case.http://clicked.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/11/26/480453.aspxhttp://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695260666,00.htmlUtah to pay $40,000 in Taser settlementBy Linda ThomsonDeseret Morning NewsPublished: Tuesday, March 11, 2008 12:32 a.m. MDT31 commentse-mail | print | font + - Jared Massey, the motorist who was shot with a Taser during a traffic arrest and who subsequently filed a lawsuit claiming the officer used excessive force, has accepted a settlement of $40,000.Utah Highway Patrol trooper Jon Gardner used a Taser on Massey on Sept. 4, 2007, during a traffic stop outside Vernal. Massey refused to sign a speeding ticket and argued with Gardner, who ordered Massey out of the car. After Massey did not comply with commands to put his hands behind his back, Gardner used a Taser on Massey.An unhappy Massey posted the videotaped incident from the squad car's dash cam on YouTube, which prompted a huge outcry from the public. Some people even threatened violence against the trooper - which prompted Massey to issue a public statement calling for people to “have some common decency” and stop making threats.The Department of Public Safety investigated the situation and cleared Gardner of any wrongdoing in handling an uncooperative motorist. He was, however, required to take a verbal communications course before returning to duty.Massey pleaded guilty in Uintah County's Justice Court to a reduced speeding charge and paid a fine of $107.
3 April 2008
at 4:35 p.m.

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Haiku_Cuckoo (Anonymous) says…

So an ongoing medical condition is enough justification to ignore a person's refusal of medical treatment, but not enough to give one pause before using an electrical weapon against that person?============The taser was obviously wrong and unjustified, but that's a separate issue. I was just wondering if a person with impaired judgment due to a head injury should be denied medical treatment.
3 April 2008
at 5:36 p.m.

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Buggie7 (Anonymous) says…

there are other ways to go about settling a person down. Riding with the emt's (not on this case) we were in a similar situation. The man was a harm to himself due to not wanting to go to the hospital and becoming more delirious and agatated because his health was getting worse. We asked him if we could then just get some medical history, symptoms and allergies from him to try to treat him there even though we knew he needed the hospital. He agreed because he felt the threat of going to the hospital was gone. The questions were asked and once it was determined of allergies med history and such the right dose of a sedative was then given in the hip by the emt behind his thus he made it safely to the hospital. There was no force no tasers no nothing just common sense and taking the time out to care for another human being that was not himself due to a medical problem. This situation could have been clearly avoided and those sheriffs officers should be on leave unpaid pending invstigation.Thoughts and prayers again.

3 April 2008
at 5:49 p.m.

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Buggie7 (Anonymous) says…

Mariann that was so uncalled for
3 April 2008
at 6:06 p.m.

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BABBOY (Anonymous) says…

Logicsound:If you want to post on a more conservative site, and try to provide some reason to it, try posting CJonline.com. They do the same thing as here on ljworld. I could use your help. Most of the posters there are obsessed about saving taxes and they do not get my liberal civil rights based slant.I would say the majority of posters still oppose what happened to this guy but there are more people trying to justify excessive force used in this case. I still usually only do my one post and usually will not argue with morons. CJonline also does a good job of on legislative issues and covers some stuff missed here. But, you can not beat the ljworld on coverage of KU.
3 April 2008
at 6:48 p.m.

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tom_bodett (Anonymous) says…

Mariann,Your right cops are stupid, maybe we should do away with them. But why stop there, get rid of all forms of government, and then make “Red Kansas” its own country without government. Of course, then you would have to complain about something else!!
3 April 2008
at 7:09 p.m.

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janeyb (Anonymous) says…

Don't know if anyone has mentioned this, but it was a female deputy that tased the guy. Beware of women wielding tasers. Don't tase me Sis!Poor Sheriff Barta. I think he is an OK Sheriff, but there is no intelligent way to explain the actions of these stupid deputies.
3 April 2008
at 8:04 p.m.

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MichaelJ (Anonymous) says…

“Red Kansas sux.”RIght Mariann. So, why don't you move? I'll help you PACK!
3 April 2008
at 9:25 p.m.

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Godot (Anonymous) says…

Do the cops always accompany the EMT's to a call for emergency care? If so, I guess anyone in Shawnee County who needs an ambulance will hesitate to do so unless their loved one is already dead.
3 April 2008
at 11:38 p.m.

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Guardian (Anonymous) says…

Hey MichaelJ, I'll help with that packing. We can move her to somewhere that has no cops. Wait, she doesn't like guns either. Oooops! Another statistic!So tell me, just where are all of these civilian Taser courses that produce all of the Taser experts posting here. I sure would like to attend one of those classes. How are they different from the police classes? They must be sooooo much more detailed.If ignorance is bliss, Lawrence is the happiest place in the world!
4 April 2008
at 1:54 a.m.

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davidnta (Anonymous) says…

I know, ignorance is bliss isn't it? :)Then again, Lawrence is the #8 smartest place in America, darn.

4 April 2008
at 3:46 a.m.

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Guardian (Anonymous) says…

And that's the scarey part!
4 April 2008
at 6:07 a.m.

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peachesncream (Anonymous) says…

Mariann what you have posted (youtube)is offensive to the public let alone to this mans friends and family members please think of the others who are reading this and be kind when posting.
4 April 2008
at 8:20 a.m.

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kpitrl (Anonymous) says…

I bet none of the people that are complaining about the use of the taser in this incident have had any formal training on how a taser works or the use of force in these situations.The journal world conveniently left out many quotes from Sheriff Barta at the press conference.Here is another scenario that could have played out. The man having a heart attack or stroke is allowed to leave the Goodyear plant. He starts driving at 75 MPH on Hwy 24 and then loses control of his vehicle due to a CVA. His vehicle then strikes another vehicle head on, killing a family of 5. The same people commenting on this story would be outraged that a man that was suffering from a life threatening illness was allowed to drive a vehicle.Wait for the autopsy reports before you judge this incident. This man was going to die from his illness on that day no matter what the actions of Law Enforcement were.
4 April 2008
at 8:39 a.m.

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jonas (Anonymous) says…

kpitrl: There are quite a number of assumptions in your alternate scenario.
4 April 2008
at 8:56 a.m.

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Buggie7 (Anonymous) says…

Kpitrl Try having a heart attack and have 1200 volts put through you 3 times for more than 1 second lets see how you would do. If they would have dont what I stated above then he would not have died and if he by some chance did die it would have been natural causes. Also Mariann where did you get your sense of morality cause you sound like its moronity. Have some sense of compassion will you?Ill even provide the luggage
4 April 2008
at 9:33 a.m.

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jafs (Anonymous) says…

Again, given the situation, shouldn't the officer(s) involved be on leave or suspended pending a thorough investigation?
4 April 2008
at 9:57 a.m.

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jrlii (Anonymous) says…

Police often fail to remember that Tasers are not non-lethal weapons. They are a Less Lethal weapon, like rubber bullets or bean-bag rounds.There should be very little difference between the standards for using a Taser and those for using a gun.As I understand it, the Ks. Department of Corrections does not allow their officers to carry a Taser 'till after they have been on the receiving end of one.
4 April 2008
at 10:05 a.m.

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daddax98 (Anonymous) says…

kpitrl, how many times must it be said? they_had_his_keys and had_his_car_blocked_in he wasn't going anywhere.

4 April 2008
at 11:12 a.m.

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MichaelJ (Anonymous) says…

Hey Mariann, pull up yer pants. We don't need to see (that) yer (an) a$$hole(ette)!
4 April 2008
at 11:26 a.m.

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kpitrl (Anonymous) says…

So all of you think that law enforcement should let the man sit in his car and wait for him to die before they pull him out. If the deputy believed that the person had a medical condition that needed immediate attention, there was a duty to act. (protective custody). We do not know if the body size of the deputies compared to the person with the illness. It may have been physically impossible for the deputies to pull the man out of his car and the taser was more than likely a last resort. We do not know the level of resistance that was offered. I would encourage all of you to not believe everything that the media presents to you. Most of the time they never present all of the facts because they don't have them either.
4 April 2008
at 4:28 p.m.

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mcjrvc04 (Anonymous) says…

Ok I first would like to say is that Mariann-you sound very heart less i first saw you comment with the youtube and that offends my self and my family. Please use your brain before typing anything because you only make an a** out of your self.The next thing i would like to say is to everyone who sees the wrong in this. There are so many thing that are still unknown to the public and to the family. But again my uncle was a good man and this is my thought upon it.”He could not go any where, he was not hurting anyone. Why would you do this to a guy that is 59 and sick. And yes it is his choice to say no to medical treatment. Why didn't the cop offer to drive him home to his wife. And if they where going to force him to have medical help, why didn't they just call home to see if his wife could talk to him. Just maybe she could of done something. There are many things that we can question but over all it is like i said before at least he is with the heavenly father who is now and in a better place.” Rest in Peace Uncle Ed……you will be missed truly by us all.
4 April 2008
at 8:28 p.m.

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jonas (Anonymous) says…

Sorry for your loss, and ignore mariann. The need for attention can drive some folks to levels most of the rest of us would consider repugnant.
4 April 2008
at 9:57 p.m.

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ralphralph (Anonymous) says…

A day of reflection later … I still cannot imagine how one possibly uses a taser on this poor man because he wouldn't get in the ambulance …. wow…….. Prayers for the family, but still working on any sympathy for the officers who did this.
4 April 2008
at 11:48 p.m.

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Guardian (Anonymous) says…

Well ls04, I seriously doubt the police are given tasers without proper training. I would also speculate the training is given by factory certified instructors This would also lead one to believe that there has been a significant amout of research into the effect of Tasers by several entities, both governmental and private. Tasers would not be available to law enforcement if they were inherently dangerous “when properly utilized” (emphasis added). Therefore, one can surmise your expertise in the matter is suspect.