Advertisement

Archive for Wednesday, May 23, 2007

Democrats drop demand for pullout date

May 23, 2007

Advertisement

— Democrats conceded Tuesday that their demands to begin withdrawing from Iraq can't be included in a war spending bill because President Bush would veto it, and they prepared to give him the money largely on his terms.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada talks with reporters Tuesday on Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C., following debate on the Iraq war funding bill.

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada talks with reporters Tuesday on Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C., following debate on the Iraq war funding bill.

"The president has made it very clear he is not going to sign a timeline. We can't sign timelines over his veto. But the fact of the matter is I think we have moved this debate very substantially forward in terms of accountability and demanding a new direction in Iraq," said House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, D-Md.

Democrats are working under a self-imposed deadline to finish a war spending bill that Bush can sign this week - before the Memorial Day recess - in order to avoid holding up funds needed in combat zones and being bashed by Republicans over the holiday recess for not supporting the troops.

Bush vetoed a Democratic war spending bill May 1 that would have set Oct. 1 as the deadline for beginning withdrawal.

The general outlines of an agreement were in place Tuesday night, but details were still being worked out. The measure would provide about $96 billion for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, plus a plan to require Iraq to meet 18 benchmarks for progress toward a representative government and an end to factional fighting. Bush could withhold nonmilitary aid if Iraq failed to meet the deadlines, or he could waive penalties.

The benchmarks include passing an oil bill that would divide revenues among all Iraqi ethnic groups and revising laws to provide for greater political participation by minority Sunni Muslim Iraqis.

The House also plans to vote on an amendment would add roughly $20 billion in nonwar domestic spending, including more than $6 billion for hurricane recovery and funds for health insurance for poor children, agricultural subsidies and increased funding for military and veterans' health care. The plan also would include the Democrats' plan to increase the minimum wage for the first time in 10 years.

Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., said he did not like the additional roughly $20 billion in nonwar spending Democrats wanted to add. But he said that if Bush gets the $96 billion he requested for the wars with no timelines for withdrawal attached, "my guess is that it will pass" even with extra spending.

Anti-war Democrats denounced the new plan.

The new proposal "does nothing to end this disastrous war," said Sen. Russ Feingold, D-Wis. "I cannot support a bill that contains nothing more than toothless benchmarks and that allows the president to continue what may be the greatest foreign policy blunder in our nation's history."

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., said that the benchmark proposal was "extremely weak," but it wasn't "a blank check."

"It's still a lot more than the president ever expected, and he absolutely would have to agree to it," Reid said. The timeline had to be dropped, he said. "We don't have a veto-proof Congress."

Reid also said that Democrats will keep trying "to change direction in the war in Iraq" with other legislation in the weeks and months ahead.

Comments

RonaldWilson 7 years, 7 months ago

Good news! Our Congress is coming to its senses and funding the war effort. What do you Ahmadenajan (or however you spell it) thinks, now? Watch your @ss Iran. You too, Syria. Throw down, Bi+ches. You want a piece of this action?

cowgomoo 7 years, 7 months ago

Godot called it right. For all of you harping about it being Bush's fault, you're yapping at the wrong Bush.

If the elder Bush had just pushed on through to Northern Iraq in '91 when there was the political will and support, here and abroad, we wouldn't be in this mess. But now that we are, it would be moral cowardice to leave, not to mention leaving behind emboldened enemies and a prowling Iran. We're there until the Iraqi government can provide for itself.

And to preempt the question, I am military. Before I retired last year I volunteered to go. However, even if I wasn't and was only a pudgy armchair dove, the opinion would be no less valid than any others.

drewdun 7 years, 7 months ago

"the dems fold, good, and GWB sticks to his guns, as he always has, preferring principle and our security to some passing political popularity" - bearded gnome

What's really sad is that you believe everything you just typed. And that's truly pathetic.

paladin 7 years, 7 months ago

If only our children were ruthless Stormtroopers! If only our leaders were rabid tyrants obsessed with world domination! You people are insane.

bearded_gnome 7 years, 7 months ago

finally, they're going to stop trying to micromanage the war unconstitutionally! just plain shameful!

their game playing on this has delayed repair and replacement of national guard equipment in two ways. first, money for that had to be moved to current deployments with the delay of the iraq bill in house/senate; second, the iraq bill should include further money for national guard repair/replacement of equipment. amazing hyprocisy by these dems. glad they're tucking their butts now finally. bet the fringie left blogs are exploding over this one.

bearded_gnome 7 years, 7 months ago

can't fight a war with 535 little generals. there has to be one CnC constitutionally and for prosecuting a war to actually work.

ksmoderate 7 years, 7 months ago

"can't fight a war with 535 little generals. there has to be one CnC constitutionally and for prosecuting a war to actually work."

Agreed....kinda. What about the new "War Czar"?

ksmoderate 7 years, 7 months ago

RonaldWilson, are you a veteran? Active service? Guard? Reserve?

TheHeartlessBureaucrat 7 years, 7 months ago

Thank you Ronald.

For all those folks who feel the need to shout aggressive slogans at the enemy from the safety of the other side of the world, please pick up a rake and head on over there. The troops need your actions more than your words.

ksmoderate and greyheim: I'm sure Ronald isn't military. Soldiers are generally trained NOT to open their mouth like that.

THB

drewdun 7 years, 7 months ago

"shockchalk (Anonymous) says:

Republicans will gain control again and steer us out of the depravity we will have spiraled into."

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, WHO WAS IT WHO LED US INTO THE DEPRAVITY KNOWN AS THE WAR IN IRAQ? HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM.

"After all, after you grow up and learn to think on your own instead of following party rhetoric, you will probably switch sides and vote Republican!"

You can't be serious. You have to know that authoritarian, statist tendencies almost always lead one into the right-wing camp in American politics. I mean come on, look at the liberals reaction here - some criticizing the Dems caving to Bush and the fascists, others (like me) who think that they really had no feasible alternative other than letting the country know where they stood, sending Bush the bill that would have started bringing the troops home, knowing that he would veto it, and then planning to fund the troops until a Democratic president takes office in 2009, at which time the troops will most assuredly begin coming home from patrolling the civil war. They knew that if they cut off the funding, Bush would have let the troops stay in the hellhole with no funding rather than do the right thing and bring them home, because the man will never compromise or give ground or acknowledge reality. A lot like the disgusting, fanatical base of the Republican Party, so well represented on this here board. Fascists make me sick.

TheHeartlessBureaucrat 7 years, 7 months ago

Hardly, Dambudzo...why comment on something I agree with.

I agree with dropping the pull out date. Folks all over this country followed blindly into this war and then when it turned out to not be such a "nice" war....y'know, the kind where no one gets hurt and hero's get a chance to monologue before they die...it suddenly became problematic.

Yes, there were voices of opposition...but not enough.

The reality is, we're there.

An analogy: My grandfather was a gunnery instructor in WWII. He taught me to fire a weapon and the thing I learned most was the cold chill I got when he said, "Don't point a weapon at anything unless you intend to kill it." That was enough. I don't own a gun.

SO...don't have a war unless you intend to follow through, even if following through leads to dire consequences. Is it only a good idea until someone we know dies? Is it only worthwhile as long as Toby Keith's songs are popular?

There are no clean answers once we've drawn our weapon...all the answers are covered in blood.

THB

ksmoderate 7 years, 7 months ago

"Wow, the old "can't comment on war strategy unless you're a veteran" comments started quick."

Woah, possession. If you think RonaldW.'s first comment was a "comment on war strategy" and not a hyped-up, balls-out, knuckle-dragging idiot remark...

I have no problem with non-vets speaking about war strategy....I'm not a vet, but I still have a view on the war. There's nothing wrong with that. But to put down the rubbish that RonaldW. did seems a bit over the top, yes?

Not trying to pick a fight with you, possession...just wanting to clarify my question to RonaldW.

RonaldWilson 7 years, 7 months ago

ksmoderate (Anonymous) says:

"RonaldWilson, are you a veteran? Active service? Guard? Reserve?"

Why? Would that change you opinion of my original post? Forgive me if I am tired of seeing our country run through the mud and blamed for all the world's woes. Forgive me if my comments on a local newspaper thread are too hawkish. Finally, perhaps we can go back to acting like the country we are (or were) and stop backing down to every little tin horn dictator that thinks he needs to prove his might against the great Satan. I love it. The Navy right now as we type, are showing Armadinnerjacket what awaits him if he keeps this nuke crap up. The guy is going to go to far, get his nuke nearly developed and someone needs to stop him. Who's going to do it? France? Germany? Britain? No. It's just us, and maybe Israel. Can no one see who we're dealing with? Anybody study the late 1930's? Bad dudes come along every now and then, always have, always will. We have to stand up to them. And, military service is not a prerequisite to having the common sense to figure that out.

Oracle_of_Rhode 7 years, 7 months ago

We came, we saw, we accomplished the missions of 1) Eliminating the threat from WMD 2) Eliminating the dictator Saddam 3) Setting up a democracy in Iraq. So can't we declare these three victories and leave? Why are our soldiers STILL dying and killing at this point? For "stability" in Iraq? Watch the news, folks. That's mission impossible. Must be the oil.

Anyway, the Democrats have totally sold out. It's another in a series of sad days for America.

TheHeartlessBureaucrat 7 years, 7 months ago

Possession...the point is obvious unless you're trying to avoid it...don't have a war unless you're prepared to face the consequences.

Glad you enjoyed your logic classes though. :)

THB

ksmoderate 7 years, 7 months ago

RonaldW., it's not that your first comment was "hawkish," but rather that it was downright belligerent. It just seems to me that the words you chose to use implied that you are either a veteran or are willing to be in order to put your money where your mouth is, so to speak.

And yes, if you are a vet it would change my opinion of your first post. It would show me that you mean it, and I would have respect for that.

I'd love to continue....but need to go and won't see a computer until late morning tomorrow, so I'll just leave it at that.

RonaldWilson 7 years, 7 months ago

ksmoderate quoth, "And yes, if you are a vet it would change my opinion of your first post. It would show me that you mean it, and I would have respect for that."

Oh, I mean it, pal or I wouldn't post it. If I'm needed to fight, I'll be there. I would die to protect this country. That's all you need to know about me. If that's not enough for you to make up your mind, tough sh!t.

Nick Yoho 7 years, 7 months ago

You people are insane.

they are.and brainwashed too.they don't even know it,how sad.

RonaldWilson 7 years, 7 months ago

If there weren't people like us, you'd be speaking german, or farsi. Appeasers!

TheHeartlessBureaucrat 7 years, 7 months ago

Well Mr. Wilson, whatchya waitin' for? The Army Recruiter is at 2233 Louisiana. 843-0465. I would guess that you're needed.

THB

RonaldWilson 7 years, 7 months ago

Never thought I'd see the day when someone proclaims their love of country and willingness to die for it would be impugned. You nutty libs really have no souls, do you?

Navin_R_Johnson 7 years, 7 months ago

an' you dems thought that if only you could gain political power the world would be saved!

oh, i know, we need more dems, right? yeah navin you're so droll, THEN the world would be a totally happy place, silly!

As kronk says: RRRRRIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHT!

definition of the dems and repubs of our day: 2 monkies throwin pooh at one another in a cage.

definition of partisan of our day: one standing outside of cage and rooting for one or the other.

definition of political reality of our day: partisan supports a monkey.

gogoplata 7 years, 7 months ago

Vote Ron Paul and american soldiers will come home.

RonaldWilson 7 years, 7 months ago

greyheim (Anonymous) says:

no impugning here, rw. tough talk demands tough action. you have the address and phone number. the miliary is stretched thin, and you love your country enough to die for it. what? you want to wait until the enlisted get a few more tour extensions under their belt first?

So, the meaning of impugn is lost on you as well. You are incorrect that the military is stretched thin. That is more of the liberal blogging coming out of you. The recruiting numbers are going up each quarter. There are no shortage of volunteers that feel as I do about this country.

RonaldWilson 7 years, 7 months ago

TheHeartlessBureaucrat (Anonymous) says:

ksmoderate and greyheim: I'm sure Ronald isn't military. Soldiers are generally trained NOT to open their mouth like that."

You don't know many soldiers then, do you? Training is one thing, personal opinion is another.

nomansland 7 years, 7 months ago

Suprised to see so many right-wingers on this forum. I guess Larryville has been taken over by extremists these days. Maybe it's just some outside agitators.

drewdun 7 years, 7 months ago

First off, this thread encapsulates why the right-wing will be out of power for years to come after Bush leaves office - the base of the Republican Party is f* crazy. Just sick, disgusting individuals. 28 percenters. Pathetic.

And as for the Dems - what do you want them to do? They know damn well that Bush isn't going to give a gd inch, even though that is what the country wants AND needs. And do you think for one second that the Dems would have let the money run out with the troops still in the hellhole? The bottom line is that the Dems let it be known in this debate where they stand, and the fascists let it be known where they stand, and the whole country has seen. Dems = bring troops home from civil war. Fascists = keep troops in hellhole so Glorious Leader can save face politically. Don't think for a second that people will forget that. And don't think for a second that the fascist position of supporting our troops dying while patrolling a civil war will win - it won't. 2008 is going to be apocalyptic for the Republican Party. I just can't wait to see the true heartbreak of the wingnuts here when their political religion is relegated to being a regional party for a generation because of their political messiah. If only the fanatics had as much concern for the wellbeing of our troops as they do for the political wellbeing of the Republican Party, our troops would be out of the hellhole yesterday. Once again, people are NOT going to forget.

Navin_R_Johnson 7 years, 7 months ago

drewdun i was gonna post something really articulate and on target, but i forgot what you said.

shockchalk 7 years, 7 months ago

Once again, people are "NOT "going to forget. Oh, poor Drewdun. Don't you know, people have very short memories. If they didn't, the Democrats wouldn't be able to win this election, let alone the future ones. After a win in 2008 and possibly (50/50) another in 2012, americans will be tired of higher taxes, bigger government, and the decay of family values. Republicans will gain control again and steer us out of the depravity we will have spiraled into. After all, after you grow up and learn to think on your own instead of following party rhetoric, you will probably switch sides and vote Republican!

RonaldWilson 7 years, 7 months ago

That proves it. Liberalism is a mental disorder.

paladin 7 years, 7 months ago

The Democrats are political cowards, which is consistent with what they have always been. This should surprise no one. They want this "war" to be Bush's to lose, not there's. His to lose on his watch, so they are ensured power regained. Except, at this point, they are now only playing politics with the lives of the young soldiers who will die, needlessly, before there is an end to the insanity which is the quagmire which is Iraq and that makes them complicit in the commission of war crimes against their own people and against the people of Iraq. They are irresponsibly prolonging death and destruction, not to mention continued rampant looting of the treasury and Iraq's resources, when they could, responsibly end it. This is shameful and cowardly and inexcusable and morally wrong. They are little more than opportunistic sociopaths victimizing this nation and its people.

paladin 7 years, 7 months ago

Yes, indeed, BOTH Democrats and Republicans are self-serving, opportunistic, gutless hypocrites who are too cowardly to stand up and by their purported beliefs, if they have any, other than believing that they should be entrenched in positions of power and influence and profit accordingly. They are despicable, sorry counterfeit reproductions of the wise statesmen who were our founding fathers. Both sides represent their respective power elite and themselves, only, in this deadly game, using young American lives as chips to win further spoils. Congress, both sides, is a disgrace and, at some point, should be held accountable. If, that is, enough Americans are courageous enough to stand up and by what they believe, which is doubtful.

Nick Yoho 7 years, 7 months ago

Yawn, what'd I miss?

Oh wow, I'm very disappointed.I was hoping theyd just hold up the funding until the troops HAD to come home.

sure a lot of Dem bashin around here for them doing somethin you folks probably WANTED.

Godot 7 years, 7 months ago

Sure, yank the funding. All of it. Now.

Let the troops hitchhike home, with Al Qaeda picking them off, 50 by 50. Can't you just see it? Soldiers waiting by the roadside, thumbing for a ride, a car stops, and ka boom.

That would make Realty_check's day. The more dead soldiers, the better. Then she/he/it could be proven more right.

Nick Yoho 7 years, 7 months ago

Are you kidding?The Iraqis would Give them all the fuel they needed to get them(us) the frick out of there!.

Godot 7 years, 7 months ago

Let's make KawValleyKid and Reality_check even happier: lets pull all the medical personnel out first, after all, we need them back home to treat all the injured and wounded at Greensburg.

Let the Iraqis treat the wounded soldiers; maybe the Cubans will volunteer.

paladin 7 years, 7 months ago

So, little god, what is it that you would like to see happen? Win the "War"? Complete the mission? There is no war, only the insane turmoil and death and destruction that this morally corrupt administration, with the complicity of congress, created. The mission is, and was, to control the resources of the Middle East in competition with China for control of the global economy. This is why the Democrats have been compliant and complicit. This cannot be done. Only more senseless, needless death and destruction, not only of our moral standing in the world, but also of our economic, social fabric will occur as long as we are occupying Iraq. We cannot kill them all. We are not cut out for it, nor do we have the resources to do it. And, the longer we are there, doing what we have been doing, which is facilitating chaos, the more enemies we create to kill. It is an impossible situation. It may well ruin us. Get out, ASAP, anyway, anyhow. It may already be too late.

Godot 7 years, 7 months ago

paladin, if we had done it right in the first place, there would have been no consultation with the UN, no vote in Congress, no warnings would have been given, no press would have been given a heads up, and the enemy would not have been alerted to our intentions, months in advance, giving them the time needed to redeploy certain armaments, transfer riches, build alliances, and plan an insurgence.

All of Baghdad would have been laid to waste before Saddam knew what was happening, before even a single soldier set foot there. And then, when the troops went in, there would have been no safe havens, no mosques would have been "off the radar," everyone would have been suspect, and we would have declared martial law, with no less than a 10 year horizon (preferably 30 years) to even attempt to institute a democracy.

And there would not have been a single, solitary reporter imbedded. In fact, anyone who leaked to the press would have been tried for treason.

The result would have probably been the same number of civilians killed, but many fewer American soldiers dead, with ultimate control over the situation.

That did not happen, because the US is what it is.

Now, there is no way out.

bearded_gnome 7 years, 7 months ago

well said godot in your last post.

your post earlier RE thumbing rides by the roadside highlights how these on the left really don't care about the troops, they just gather up their deaths and use them for rhetorical opportunities. if they cared for the soldiers, and their sacrifice, they would wish that that amazing sacrifice would result in something. instead, their best idea is a quick pullout resulting in a regional war and millions of deaths in a huge bloodbath. they don't care that the iraqis voted for their current government, remember the thumbs? they don't care for iraqi self-determination.

the dems fold, good, and GWB sticks to his guns, as he always has, preferring principle and our security to some passing political popularity.

the poster above who drew the contrast to clinton in Somalia was very very good. here GWB is surging and giving the troops and their generals what they ask. the senate voted to send general david petraeus in but now is trying to refuse him what he says he needs!!! now, don't that just beat all.

whether RW has military experience is meaningless. here are some presidents who commanded during wartime with less time in uniform than GWB: Lincoln; FDR; Jefferson; wilson; and reagan. reagan only won the cold war so I included him. take that list and think about the history.

Nick Yoho 7 years, 7 months ago

Then again,if they wouldn't of sent 400,000 iraqi soldiers home with their weapons ,but without a job.there might of never BEEN an "insurgence"

If they wouldn't of sat around watching the mueseums and infrastructure get ripped off.

Maybe if they would of secured all the munitions they new about but did not gaurd throughout the country.

Maybe a lot of things.But now we are in somebody else's civil war.Weaking our ability to fight the true enemy.

we are in a lot of wars right now, Iraq,Afghanistan,the so called"war on terror",the war on drugs,and probably others I can't think of at the moment.It's important to remember Iraq was not involved in 911 in any way.so when you talk about the war in Iraq,keep in mind it is separate from the war on terriers..It is a civil war,we won our objective years ago,we got Saddam,and we found no WMD or for you faux news rushers.we found them,and destroyed them.our job there is done.they don't want US style deMOCKracy,its not our job to nation build.~peace

Nick Yoho 7 years, 7 months ago

You can ""wish" That sacrifice would mean something " until the cows come home,but that aint gonna make it so.I do wish the troops,our 400 +billion dollars,and 600,000 Iraqi deaths meant something.Sadly all it will ever mean is George W.Bush is a Sociopath.

Actually, those of us against the war of aggression ,care about the troops far more than you.WE want them out of harms way.they arent even supplied the armor they need thanks to your heros.like 4 deferments Cheney,and MIA Bush.

Nick Yoho 7 years, 7 months ago

"If there weren't people like us, you'd be speaking german, or farsi. Appeasers!"

LOL!!True because American would still belong to the natives,and I'd be where my ancestors came from.Europe.people like you believe in babylon-the empire.You believe in crushing everyone different from you until your ilk dominate the world.You should be a proud white man.I know I am.

temperance 7 years, 7 months ago

Cowgomoo: "If the elder Bush had just pushed on through to Northern Iraq in '91 when there was the political will and support, here and abroad, we wouldn't be in this mess." You're right the mess would have started in the early 90's and the father would go down in history as the worst president in the last 100 years instead of the son.

Lessons rational people take from Iraq: wars of choice and colonial projects tend toward catastrophic failure.
Lessons the 28-percenters take from Iraq: shoulda invaded earlier

The_Factor: "Divide them and subdue them." Great plan Patton. It's working out wonderfully in Iraq. The Sunnis and Shia are so subdued. Dredging up ethnic rivalry always brings the peace, doesn't it?

staff04 7 years, 7 months ago

"Except, at this point, they are now only playing politics with the lives of the young soldiers who will die, needlessly, before there is an end to the insanity which is the quagmire which is Iraq and that makes them complicit in the commission of war crimes against their own people and against the people of Iraq. They are irresponsibly prolonging death and destruction, not to mention continued rampant looting of the treasury and Iraq's resources, when they could, responsibly end it. This is shameful and cowardly and inexcusable and morally wrong. They are little more than opportunistic sociopaths victimizing this nation and its people."

Are you on crack? Where the hell have you been for the last 5 years? You DO realize that Dems have only been in control of Congress for about 4 1/2 months, right?

"rampant looting of the treasury"--easily the most laughable accusation I have ever heard from the right. Well, maybe that time that Newt Gingrich said to an empty House floor that all Democrats were athiests tops it, but this one is up there! Seriously guy, you are beyond delusional.

paladin 7 years, 6 months ago

Judging from the President's news conference this morning, the justification for the occupation of Iraq by US military forces has evolved into a de facto "war" with Al-Quaeda for the purpose of protecting the US from attack by them. We are at "war" with this vaguely defined group of "terrorists" there because they are now there. We must not leave because they will come after us. This is the current rationale. In fact, Al-Quaeda is, reportedly, existent throughout the Middle East, if not the entire world. The United States does not have the financial resources or the military capability to occupy the entire Middle East. It is insane even to harbor that line of thought. We cannot transform the Middle East into our Empire, for whatever purpose, profit being the foremost. Other countries have tried, throughout history, and failed. But, apparently, we are arrogant and stubborn enough, with little Emperor George at the helm, to believe, as demonstrated by our foreign policy and our aggressive "preemptive" actions abroad, that we are just the ones to do it. And, we are going to do it regardless of the consequences, or die trying. This position, and the results of it, are truly insane. We must end the insanity now, before its too late. It appears inevitable that the US is going to attack Iran. What with, news conferences?

Danielle Brunin 7 years, 6 months ago

Here is a reality check of the cost of war, regardless of whether we withdraw from Iraq and continue to stay there. My brother who is a Marine and currently serving in Fallujah, Iraq called me. A comrade and friend of his, Lance Corporal Jeffrey D. Walker was killed by a sniper's bullet on May 14. He wasn't married, but had a 5-month old son that he hadn't seen since he deployed in February. Perhaps you can take a break from calling each other names for ten seconds and sign the family's guestbook. When you do, try to remember that there is a very real human cost to this war. I think that kind of gets lost in the debate sometimes...

http://www.legacy.com/BostonGlobe/GB/GuestBookView.aspx?PersonID=88070307

fliesinyoureyes 7 years, 6 months ago

rodentgirl16- yes that is tragic. You also have to acknowledge the death toll of Iraqi civilians which has exceeded 100,000 by some accounts. Horrible, horrible deaths. People are being dragged from their homes while they sleep and having holes drilled in their head and left in the street for their family to find the next day. These people did not sign up for their part of the death and destruction. They are trapped there with no congress or senate vying for a way - any way - to bring them home. They are home.

These are people who had previously suffered over a decade of sanctions brought upon by Saddam. And this happened immediately after a brutal eight-year war with Iran. They've been suffering a war-torn life for decades on end.

If the end result of all this is to NOT give these poor people their independence and the revenues from the oil that's under the ground of the land they were born into, then we have failed.

It's not fathomable to me that the West - a civilization espousing freedom, justice, human rights, equality and liberty for all people... would bask even for one second in our ineptitude to come to a consensus about what the hell we are doing over there.

The right-wingers posting here are doing just that. Their leaders make no effort to help the rest of us understand their goal. And it is their goal, because nobody, not even the congress or the senate, can do anything about them.

minko224 7 years, 6 months ago

Here's what I always wonder about war. We ended world war2 basically with 2 nuclear bombs. OK we have this technology still today, why are we sending people over to be killed? We have bombs to end wars. Why not use them if we really truly are trying to win a war? Oh and the fact that nuclear bombs kill more people is that bad in a war? Aren't we trying to kill the hell outta the enemy? just a thought

minko224 7 years, 6 months ago

oh and al Qaeda isn't in Iraq it is in Aphganistan. We're in iraq cos Bush wanted us to finish daddies unfinished job.

minko224 7 years, 6 months ago

It's already been shown that Bush was lying when he said they are there. Also he was lying when he said they had WOMD. Ever wonder why they wanted to impeach Clinton for lying about sex and yet it's ok for Bush to lie to get us in a war then kill thousands of Americans over a lie? i say impeach him!

fliesinyoureyes 7 years, 6 months ago

@pa 1:56 - where are you seeing my "politics"? I'm calling out the partisan bickerers. Did you read it?

minko224 7 years, 6 months ago

If we truly wanted to win the war we would have dropped a nuclear bomb on Iraq. We will never win the war going at it half/a$$ed. You have to at least try first. We aren't using all the weapons at our disposal.

minko224 7 years, 6 months ago

That is completely right. After 9/11 we should have dropped a nuclear bomb on Aphganistan. Then if Bush still wanted to finish his dads job we should have dropped the nuclear bomb on Iraq. Otherwise we go to war, lose thousand, millions of innocent Americans lives.

minko224 7 years, 6 months ago

sorry bout the spelling. I didn't think this was the Baldwin Signal.

minko224 7 years, 6 months ago

spelling has always evolved. you should quit dragging Ur feet. let it happen. how do you think they came up with they're from they are?

drewdun 7 years, 6 months ago

"posessionannex (Anonymous) says:

In which case, if AQ is in Iraq, and claims to be winning, and we leave Iraq, what does that make us (starts with an L)? And what does that make AQ? (Starts with a W)"

Hmmmmm, maybe should have thought of that before the invasion.

And you really trust the people that didn't consider that possibility nor plan for it to 'lead us to victory' [whatever that means today] in Iraq?

My question to you possession is 'what would you have us do?' And please no platitudes of 'finish the job' or some other such rot. Stay forever? Pull back to permanent bases and only intervene when the violence gets 'too bad?' You seem to be pretty good at criticizing those who advocate removing our troops for not thinking realistically, please explain how you would resolve this monumental disaster.

minko224 7 years, 6 months ago

ok this is my second day on here. this is hilarious! it's just one or two guys arguing back and forth over the tiniest detail that means absolutely nothing! ok so this guy was wrong, big deal. ok so this guy disagreed with you. oh dear my feelings are hurt. this points out to me why our society is so screwed up these days. just a bunch of morons who think of only themselves and think they're the only ones who are right. get over youself, get over your posting ability, get out in the real world and try to make a difference. I did not use spell check and i refuse to. im not as anal as someone who would use it.

temperance 7 years, 6 months ago

"After 9/11 we should have dropped a nuclear bomb on Aphganistan."

To borrow a phrase "this points out to me why our society is so screwed up these days."

Okay minko, you're too good for spell check. But did you really need spell check to get "Afghanistan" correct? I mean, there's typos and then there's idiocy . . .

minko224 7 years, 6 months ago

Ron Paul will never be elected President.

minko224 7 years, 6 months ago

I agree with you. The lives of our boys and girls in the military are less important than my spelling properly or not.

minko224 7 years, 6 months ago

Using nuclear weapons on Iraq would end the war. Spelled properly or not it would. Someone prove to me that it wouldn't.

minko224 7 years, 6 months ago

Once again I have proven that I may not spell well, but I have the answer to end the Iraq war within 30 minutes of implementing my plan. Top that smarty pants.

minko224 7 years, 6 months ago

You folks just like to go on and on. I like to solve it and move on. Not one of you spoke of how you would end the war. No one had a clue. I jumped in and booom! solved.

minko224 7 years, 6 months ago

and Do you seriously think that using spell check makes you a better speller than I?

minko224 7 years, 6 months ago

OK chalk another victory up to minko. the worst spelling smart boy this side of the Kaw

drewdun 7 years, 6 months ago

"right_thinker (Anonymous) says:

This is very simple:

Defeat-O-Crats are betting our futures (again) for the cause of their political maneuvering."

Or, Democrats are ACKNOWLEDGING REALITY. And by the way, rt, I thought you would be happy because the Dems 'caved' and funded the war with virtually no restrictions on Bush. Is that 'political maneuvering,' and if it is, is it still wrong? I'm guessing you would say 'yes' on both counts simply because of the (D) next to their names, and even more simply because you're a pathetic individual.

"It's a bet they've made with themselves that the surge sucked come October or so-they say, 'told you so America', and take '08."

Or, its called ACKNOWLEDGING REALITY and taking the feelings of the vast majority of the people of this nation into account in the corridors of power, something your political messiah is wholly incapable of. For example this, today:

"U.S. Opposition to Iraq War at All-Time High, Poll Shows"

"Americans now view the war in Iraq more negatively than at any time since the war began, according to the latest New York Times/CBS News poll.

"Six in 10 Americans surveyed say the United States should have stayed out of Iraq, and more than three in four say that things are going badly there - including nearly half who say things are going very badly, the poll found.....

"A large majority of the public - 76 percent, including a majority of Republicans - say that the additional American troops sent to Iraq this year by Mr. Bush have either had no impact or are making things worse there. Twenty percent think the troop increase is improving the situation in Iraq.....

"A majority of Americans continue to support a timetable for withdrawal. Sixty-three percent say the United States should set a date for withdrawing troops from Iraq sometime in 2008.

"While the troops remain in Iraq, the overwhelming majority of Americans support continuing to finance the war, though most want to do so with conditions. Thirteen percent want Congress to block all spending on the war. The majority, 69 percent, including 62 percent of Republicans, say Congress should appropriate money for the war, but on the condition that the United States sets benchmarks for progress and that the Iraqi government meets those goals. Fifteen percent of all respondents want Congress to approve war spending without conditions."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/24/us/24cnd-survey.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Continued.......

drewdun 7 years, 6 months ago

So the Democrats are doing what the American people want, and in September the real pressure will be on Bush and your team the GOP after their very public statements about 'progress being made' or they will begin to desert the president to save their own ass. I wonder if you will call these cowards 'Defeat-i-cans.' Who am I kidding. Of course you won't. You're too much of a coward to ever criticize your own team.

"Of course, they've lost the past two-with huge odds in their favor-so who knows?" - rt

Dude, you've hit rock bottom. Trying to blatantly rewrite history in front of everybody is highly embarrassing and shows exactly how insane you are. The Dems have "lost the last two--with huge odds in their favor?" Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, perhaps your raging alcoholism has rotted your brain to the point that you can't even remember seven months ago and the crushing GOP defeat. In any event, you're now nothing more than a charade here. Wait, who am I kidding? You've always been nothing more than a charade here. Loser.

drewdun 7 years, 6 months ago

Sorry, one more thing and I'm out for the day.....

From the same NYT poll:

"Even so, the poll found that Americans now have more faith in the Democrats than in the Republicans on the issue of the Iraq war. For the first time, more than half of those polled - 51 percent - said the Democratic party is more likely than the Republican party to make the right decisions about the war.

In general, more Americans now have a favorable view of the Democratic party (53 percent) than of the Republican party (38 percent). The Republican party has not had a majority positive rating in a New York Times/CBS News poll since December 2003.

As for Mr. Bush, 23 percent approve of his handling of the situation in Iraq, while 72 percent disapprove; 25 percent approve of his handling of foreign policy, while 66 percent disapprove; and 27 percent approve of his handling of immigration issues, while 60 percent disapprove.

On the economy, 38 percent approve of Mr. Bush's handling of the issue, and on the campaign against terrorism, 40 percent approve, matching his career low on the issue"

Damn, that must really sting, rt. TWENTY-THREE PERCENT approve of his handling of Iraq? Ouch. 23 percenters - I like the sound of that.

Mkh 7 years, 6 months ago

I told you...We are NOT leaving Iraq...get over it folks. You really think we'd leave without the Oil, hah!

drewdun 7 years, 6 months ago

"right_thinker says.....

The gig is up for the far-left."

Hmmmmmmm, I could have sworn, what with the last election and ALL of the polling that it was YOUR TEAM that was done. We'll see in 2008. I have a feeling you won't be talking so much trash after that.

"Unhinged." - rt

Uhhhhh, yeah. Let's recount, shall we? You claimed that the Dems had lost the 'last two elections.' Now who's unhinged?

Speaking of unhinged, how about this, rt...

"People are not buying your bullshat anymore"

Hmmmm, well.............hmmmph. You know, I would have looked at the last election, and all of the polling, in particular the one I linked to and quoted from (the most recent available), seen the numbers, and came up with the exact opposite conclusion. Possibly because that's because I live in reality and am not batsh** insane. For example, let me repeat two telling lines that show that people are most assuredly not buying the radical right's bs anymore....

"Even so, the poll found that Americans now have more faith in the Democrats than in the Republicans on the issue of the Iraq war. For the first time, more than half of those polled - 51 percent - said the Democratic party is more likely than the Republican party to make the right decisions about the war.

In general, more Americans now have a favorable view of the Democratic party (53 percent) than of the Republican party (38 percent). The Republican party has not had a majority positive rating in a New York Times/CBS News poll since December 2003.

As for Mr. Bush, 23 percent approve of his handling of the situation in Iraq, while 72 percent disapprove; 25 percent approve of his handling of foreign policy, while 66 percent disapprove; and 27 percent approve of his handling of immigration issues, while 60 percent disapprove."

Yeah, people aren't "buying our bullshat anymore." Once again, you're a joke. You know it. I know it. Most everyone who frequents this website knows it. Even most of the other conservative posters know it. And you know why? Because you can look at something that is as plain as day, filter it through your bizarre, hyper-partisan mind, and say 'black is white, up is down, forward is backward, etc. "Not buying our bullshat anymore." Sheesh. What a maroon. I love baseball, so let me put it this way, rt: you need to go back down to the minors and work on your fastball and off-speed stuff. You've served up so many homers around here, you're working with an ERA of approximately 843 million. And that's not going to cut it. "Bring in the lefty!"

Commenting has been disabled for this item.