Archive for Wednesday, March 21, 2007

Vegan benefits

March 21, 2007


To the editor:

In the March 14 article regarding fad diets, vegan Sylvester Graham was mistakenly labeled as "the originator of food fads." It also was stated that "graham crackers are his contribution to healthy eating." Actually his contributions to society are far more vast than a simple cracker. He and many other "universal reformers," as they were called, worked passionately to end slavery, oppression of women, cruelty to animals and many other issues of the 1800s.

Out of respect for the rights of animals to live free of human oppression, they ate no animal products.

Also, veganism is, strictly speaking, not a diet, so it cannot be considered a "fad diet." Veganism is a way of living based on nonviolence and respect for all life. In an effort to do no harm (or the least possible harm), vegans do not wear, eat, experiment on or use animals. Every possible attempt is made not to support industries that do so.

Although some think vegans are giving up a lot of pleasure, that is definitely not the case. The risks of heart disease, cancer, osteoporosis, obesity and many other diseases are greatly diminished, so one generally enjoys better health. Also vegan food is varied, beautiful and delicious. Best of all, one's heart is filled with an inner joy and peace. However, health, tasty food and joy are not the goals of vegan living, for the goal is to end the suffering of others. Instead, they are the side benefits of it.

Judy Carman,



Richard Heckler 11 years, 3 months ago

Most meat products are raised in unhealthy and brutal atmospheres. Not only that Pres. Bush has closed one more USDA Mad Cow Testing laboratory in Washington state. The EU and Japan perfer testing each and every animal however in the states the buck is more important than our health. Additionally hormones are injected to increase fat/weight content not to mention the onslaught of antibiotics.

While not Vegan this vegetarian household is meat free. There are plenty of alternatives available or simply keep eating as are and drop the meat. Plenty of whole grains,veggies,fruits,rice,beans,nuts,tofu, tempeh, Seitan,Avacodos are anything but boring.

We use Rice milk in our smoothies although milk is not absolutely necessary.

imastinker 11 years, 3 months ago

My heart is filled with inner joy and peace when I get a hamburger.

To each their own, I guess. More for me!

imastinker 11 years, 3 months ago

Seriously though - local farmers don't raise animals like the conditions you talk about. Why not support the local farmers and buy a side of beef or chickens or a hog? After paying the butcher, the price is very similar, and you know where it came from and so on.I feel much better knowing where my meat came from.

Flap Doodle 11 years, 3 months ago

I couldn't imagine living without pork.

Ragingbear 11 years, 3 months ago

Yes maam, I'm doing a hippy check. There has been a major increase in the local hippy population. Have you noticed an increase in any drum circles?

I don't mind Vegans. They are easy to beat up.

paladin 11 years, 3 months ago

Real men eat meat. Red meat. And lots of it. I know, cause I learned that from the TV. Ha Ha. I don't really like to eat meat, much. Its kinda gross, if you really think about it. Most people don't. Think about it. Or much else.

BrianR 11 years, 3 months ago

Any diet that excludes a food type is, by definition, a fad diet. Humans are omnivores.

Flap Doodle 11 years, 3 months ago

Wrong again, bozo.

Raginbear said: "They are easy to beat up."

You managed to misquote something two posts up. LOL!

Mauidreaming 11 years, 3 months ago

Very well written letter. Animal cruelty whether it's in the form or eating their flesh, making them provide us entertainment, stripping their furs from their bodies, experimenting on them, etc. is all just another form of oppression -- only to a different species. In a truly civilized society, oppression does not exist against anyone, including animals.'s not just "hippies" who try to live their lives cruelty-free. It's soccer moms, business associates, and your average Joe. Sorry to disappoint you!

Ragingbear 11 years, 3 months ago

This is why I stopped trying to explain bias to him the other day.

Lack of protein results in your brain being unable to form new neural pathways, hence making it difficult to learn and comprehend information.

The Vegan Lifestyle typically tries to ignore that humans need the proteins and amino acids only available through the consumption of animal meat, touting the similarities of certain proteins found in things like tofu and other junk that really isn't food.

As a result, most vegans have a retention rate nearly 50% lower than a your standard omnivorous human, as well as a tendency to manifest psychological issues that can interfere with day-to-day activities. Schizophrenia, PTSD, Bipolar disorder.. These are all more commonly manifested as a result of a vegan diet.

Besides, if we aren't supposed to eat animals, then why are they made of meat?

Mauidreaming 11 years, 3 months ago

Oh my Rangingbear, where do I even begin?

Okay, first off, all the psychological diseases you mentioned are not more prevalent in vegans. This is just absurd and simply not true. Second, I have yet to meet a vegan or strict vegetarian that had heart disease, diabetes, high blood pressure, obese, etc. These diseases are basically non-existent with them. Third, protein is WAY over-rated. There is protein in absolutely everything you eat -- just check the labels in your fridge and cabinets. People can get plenty of protein without eating flesh. Fourth, all mammals, including ourselves, are made of flesh. Does that mean we should go out and eat humans? Normally I hear that humans should eat animal flesh because we're "true" carnivores (which by the way we're not), not because they are made of meat. So this is a very bizarre reason to eat flesh.

Besides, if eating vegan was so dangerous for people's health, then why are the majority of people dying in our country from cancer, diabetes, heart disease and obesity, carnivores?

Mauidreaming 11 years, 3 months ago

75x55 -- "Civilized society", indeed-that's a neutered society"

AMEN to that!!!

Ragingbear 11 years, 3 months ago

Notice the rampant raving and ranting without actually adressing the situation? That is an early sign of many psychological disorders. It's caused by his own body dissolving his brain for the basic protein he isn't getting. Even other vegetarians will tell you the importance of taking in protein. Vegetarians typically get it from plant and animal sources such as milk, and even certain vegetable sources. Protein is also vital to building and maintaining muscle development, which is why you risk having your children taken by Protective Services because the child will be sickly, small and prone to illness due to malnutrition.

Instead of commenting on the aspects I pointed out, he proceeded to blame eating meat on other diseases. There is little doubt that if everyone stopped eating meat that the amount of heart disease and obesity would drop, but not be eliminated. Of course, right after that the human race would die out because most vegan males cannot produce sufficient sperm to be recognized as fertile.

Pay close attention to the mad rant that will result of this post. You will notice that the areas of rational thought and upper cognitive thinking are both heavily inhibited.

Mauidreaming 11 years, 3 months ago

"Since I have canine teeth (as does everyone) as well as incisors and molars, I believe that evolution made me with the need and ability to eat both veggies and meat.

Defender -- let me put it this way, the next time you see a decaying dead animal on the side of the road that's been hit, if you start salivating and get the urge to pull over and start tearing into its carcass, THEN I'll say you're a true carnivore. But I seriously doubt you'll do that.

Humans were never meant to eat meat. You'll have to do better than just a couple of somewhat pointed teeth in your mouth to convince me. True carnivores don't die of colon cancer. True carnivores don't die with 5 lbs. of undigested red meat in their bowels. True carnivores don't have extremely long intestines/colons for processing grains and vegetables like humans have. Theirs are very short. True carnivores don't have to cook and season their flesh to be able to eat it. True carnivore's jaws do not move side to side to grind their food down like herbivores do. They are able to bite, tear and swallow raw flesh. I have yet to see a carnivore friend or family member do this. Sorry, but the evidence that humans are carnivorous just isn't there.

Besides, eating meat is simply just a brainwashed "tradition" that most people don't question. We are taught as infants to love animals, then we're taught later on to eat them and not care about their fate. Kind of strange, don't you think?

I love the quote: "If you put an apple and a rabbit in a crib with a baby, and the baby plays with the apple and eats the rabbit, I'll give you a million dollars".

Humans inherently love animals and are very connected to them at birth. It is only until we are taught to not care about their well-being that we begin to consume their flesh, and participate in other abuses against them.

Just because a caveman way back when chowed down on an animal shouldn't be reason enough for people to continue to kill animals at the rate we do to feed the billions of people on this planet. Do I believe in evolution? You bet, and now is the time to evolve from cavemen to a more dignified, civilized society!

Ragingbear 11 years, 3 months ago

Scenebooster, I could present you will millions of things, but your protein deprived brain wouldn't be able to understand it.

imastinker 11 years, 3 months ago

"Knowing where your meat comes from is always a good thing - especially when you can take it down and butcher it yourself."

I wanted to add this to my first post, but didn't. I agree with you. You're not worried about dyes in the meat at the store, preservatives, or other additives. I have also found that a stocked freezer has kept me from eating out as much and I've got emergency food too.

Ragingbear 11 years, 3 months ago

Are vegans still perpetuating the lie about 5 lbs of undigested meat in their colon lasting for 5-7 years? There is no proof of it, and any respectable doctor will tell you that such a claim is a complete and utter piece of hogwash. What your protein deprived brain is probably thinking of is a growing problem in America of having an impacted bowel ( Where fecal matter becomes impacted and will eventually produce permanent blockages in the colon.) which is attributed to not having a proper amount of dietary fiber. True, this will not be an issue if you do not eat meat, as 99% of everything you eat will either pass through completely undigested or contain large amounts of fiber.

For some reason, most likely due to psychosis caused from lack of protein, vegans think that anyone that is pro-meat eating is somehow anti-vegetable. This cannot be further from the truth. Americans eat far too little fruit and vegetable matter for our diet. It is that problem that is the issue with developing heart disease, high blood pressure, and even some types of cancer. But to say that we should completely stop eating meat because of that is like telling women to stop having children in order to eliminate post-partum depression.

trinity 11 years, 3 months ago

i always wondered who invented the graham cracker. now i know. my life is at last complete.

and oh yeah-i'm a meat eater. it's my bizness not anybody else's. so nyah. ;)

Mauidreaming 11 years, 3 months ago

People, if you eat flesh, you're a carnivore! Plain and simple. If it makes you feel better calling yourself an omnivore because you also consume some fruits and veggies, great. But the fact is that carnivores eat meat. And it sounds like you eat meat, right? And I never said eating meat meant being anti-vegetable. I simply stated the facts -- if you choose to eat meat, you're more likely to develop heart disease, diabetes, colon cancer, high blood pressure and obesity. Diseases that real carnivores don't develop. Kind of a no-brainer huh? Don't eat animal flesh and your odds of developing these ailments is virtually non-existent. But that would be too difficult for humans. No, we need to rely on the pharmaceutical industry to cure all our ailments with drugs. Why would we humans take responsibility for our actions when we can pop a pill?

"But to say that we should completely stop eating meat because of that is like telling women to stop having children in order to eliminate post-partum depression."

Sorry Ragingbear, but comparing not eating meat with women not having children in order to eliminate post-partum is not anywhere near the same topic. No one is forced to suffer if a woman doesn't have a child. Eating meat is directly connected to suffering. We are so far removed from where our meat comes from and how much suffering goes into it, that when most people find out, they are horrified. And they should be.

Ragingbear 11 years, 3 months ago

Scenebooster, here is a paper regarding B12 deficency being linked to impotence and low sperm counts. B12 is found in animal flesh, and is needed for a wide array of vital bodily functions.

This is commonly countered with the vegan response of "But we can get Vitamin B supplements that take care of that." right after they argue that being a vegan is natural for humans. If that was the case, then how would our bodies gather B12 before we did things like discover fire, and invent the wheel?

Agnostick pointed out that those in India instead eat lots of "Lots of nuts, beans & legumes, cheese etc.".

Let me explain something about proteins. Proteins are different, there are so many that we discover new ones in labs every day. However, the spectrum of proteins we need are from different sources. For example, the proteins found in beans are not complete proteins. This can be easily fixed by adding cheese, which contains the other side of the missing proteins. This then produces the proper protein spectrum that we need.

But there is one small problem. Vegans don't eat cheese. That is one, of many differences between vegetarians and vegans. So that kinda throws that view off kilter.

Ragingbear 11 years, 3 months ago

75x55- Your definition of Omnivore is off.

From the Merriam-Webster dictionary online we get the definition of omnivorous(root word Omnivore).

1 : feeding on both animal and vegetable substances.

Omnivorous animals eat, and need both to properly survive. However, for general nutrition, this grants them greater opportunities to eat, and thus survive. Ultimately though, they will need to move on to flesh in order to get all the nutrients they require.

Ragingbear 11 years, 3 months ago

Hmm. Preview said the URL was there.

Anyways. Here are two articles, in case people dispute that we need B12 as well..

Confrontation 11 years, 3 months ago

"'s not just "hippies" who try to live their lives cruelty-free. It's soccer moms, business associates, and your average Joe. Sorry to disappoint you!"

I don't believe this for one second! Soccer moms are incredibly cruel. Not only do they torture their children by living vicariously through them, but they also try to kill the rest of us with their not-so-sweet mini van/SUV driving skills.

I eat meat.

jonas 11 years, 3 months ago

Man, some people yell and scream about the silliest things. Seriously, scenebooster, do you have a setting other that "contemptuously angry ultra liberal?" Just let it go, man.

Ragingbear 11 years, 3 months ago

If hippies are so smart, then how come they're always getting caught in those tuna nets?

costello 11 years, 3 months ago

Several people have commented that vegans aren't obese. Actually I'm living proof that's not true. I was vegan for almost 5 years for animal cruelty reasons. During that time I went from 165 pounds (overweight but not obese) to 205 (clearly obese).

My doctor put me on Atkins in November. Doesn't work for me. I'm not losing weight, and I hate the meat.

My heart is with the vegans, but the health claims didn't pan out for me.

heysoos 11 years, 3 months ago

Those starches will get you every time...

Personally, if you don't want to eat meat, go for it. It ain't any of my bid-ness.

For those who love meat, I found this website that provides proof of the elusive In-N-Out 100x100 burger. AWESOME!!!

Linda Endicott 11 years, 3 months ago

Carnivores eat ONLY meat.

Herbivores eat ONLY plants, veggies and fruits.

Omnivores eat BOTH.

Is that clear to everyone now?

opinion 11 years, 3 months ago

Although not for me (not yet), cutting back or eliminating meat eating certainly shows some positives. Two experiences on the topic: One, it seems to me, the vegans I have spoken with were a bit arrogant on the topic. Felt like they were speaking down to me most of the time. Second, the term vegetarian is being diluted. Have had several claim to be "vegetarian" because they stayed away from red meat. Fish and chicken were fine.

Anecdotal, I know, but was wondering if anyone else experienced the same.

sourpuss 11 years, 3 months ago

Veganism is not "healthy". It requires a slew of vitamin supplements to even be viable and cannot be effectively sustained without modern technology. Children raised on a vegan diet have the risk of developing blood abnormalities, digestive restrictions, and dystrophy. Such a lifestyle also requires accurate knowledge of vitamin and mineral sources in food and requires constant maintainance of food choices. This is not to say that people cannot maintain such a lifestyle, but to argue it is healthier is just incorrect, when it is by definition unhealthy.

Vegetarianism, on the other hand, can be extremely healthy, especially for those at risk of high cholesterol.

I, however, take the Stoics' approach which is all things in moderation. I accept the fact that I am an omnivorous creature and I eat accordingly. The treatment of animals for food, product testing, and materials is actually entirely separate from the ethics of eating them.

gr 11 years, 3 months ago

"Anecdotal, I know, but was wondering if anyone else experienced the same."

I thought I was vegan. But, I'm not of the environmental-wacko type of person. So, what do you call someone who doesn't eat meat, (and yes, that means fish, chicken, alligator, beef, hogs, dogs, rats, cockroaches, nor butterflies....), but they do it as the given designed diet from creation to be as healthy as possible and experience the joy of reduced illness, fatness, nor any other diseases of the Egyptians. As a side benefit, animals aren't eaten nor raised to be eaten?

Flap Doodle 11 years, 3 months ago

Ancient pork handling: "Pigs made a harrowing journey about 3,500 years ago to the most remote islands of the Pacific alongside their ancient human owners, and that partnership is revealing how the region was colonized."

Ragingbear 11 years, 3 months ago

Follow your dreams. You can reach your goals. I'm living proof. Beefcake!.. BEEFCAKE!!!

JSDAD 11 years, 3 months ago

graham crackers, mmmmm.. great under cheesecake

JSDAD 11 years, 3 months ago

sand, isn't that where clams come from?

paladin 11 years, 3 months ago

I used to eat mud pies and cookies made from playdough. The pies were OK, but the cookies were scrumptuous.

gr 11 years, 3 months ago

"gr - do you have any leather products? As I understand, the term 'vegan' encompasses all types of products made from animals, not just food items."

Of course! Leather shoes, leather gloves, leather belts. And I fully support animal research before trying things on humans! That's why I decided "vegan" is not what I am. Vegetarian, I guess, but no milk nor eggs.


"Second, the argument that a diet which includes meat will lead to health issues like obesity and heart disease is flawed. "

Show me a vegetarian, who also doesn't eat sugar, and who is obese, and you might have a point there.

Most all the obese people I know eat meat. Just a few eat eggs and dairy.

Mauidreaming 11 years, 3 months ago

Everyone here can split hairs all they want over vitamin B12, what the true definition of a carnivore is, sperm counts, etc. But they are just distractions from one very important issue surrounding your beloved meat. Cruelty. As humans we have a choice as to whether or not we want to support the despicable cruelties of the meat, dairy and egg industry. We also have the choice to eat lower on the food chain and not be a part of the cruelty. Better health and less environmental damage are all just side benefits to eating a vegan diet. Eating animal flesh, their mammal secretions and their eggs is just not necessary to survive anymore.

So really, it's just a matter of what your conscious and your heart tells you to do. For many, it is to live their lives on this planet doing the least amount of harm to humans and animals. And they should not be belittled and called "weirdoes" for living their lives that way. Since when did compassion mean weird?

trinity 11 years, 3 months ago

where's the beef???

somebody had to say it.

jonas 11 years, 3 months ago

"Posted by Mauidreaming (anonymous) on March 21, 2007 at 3:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Everyone here can split hairs all they want over vitamin B12, what the true definition of a carnivore is, sperm counts, etc. But they are just distractions from one very important issue surrounding your beloved meat. Cruelty."

Cruelty is life without steak. Steaksteaksteak!

Scenebooster: I'm just looking out for you. So much negative emotion can't be good for your inner balance, nor your inner joy and harmony.

Which is point, why are all the innerjoyandharmony folk just as angry as the rest? Better PR must be needed.

Richard Heckler 11 years, 3 months ago

Those who choose to eat meat should by all means choose the healthiest source likely your local farmer or the Merc which purchases a lot of locally raised meat. The Merc also purchases a lot of locally raised veggies and fruits in season.

Hormone free/anti biotic free/free range meat should have less fat.

Local Burger purchases locally raised meat as well.

Crispian Paul 11 years, 3 months ago

Ragingbear posted:

As a result, most vegans have a retention rate nearly 50% lower than a your standard omnivorous human, as well as a tendency to manifest psychological issues that can interfere with day-to-day activities. Schizophrenia, PTSD, Bipolar disorder.. These are all more commonly manifested as a result of a vegan diet.

I would like to see your proof of this. (And before you ask, no I am not a vegan) As someone who has actually TAKEN courses in psychopathology, there is really no dietary component to any psychotic disorder (e.g. schizophrenia). Symptoms of mood disorders (e.g. major depression, bipolar disorder) may be affected by diet, but not CAUSED by diet.

Did you just make this up? It sounds like you did.

Interesting that you said PTSD when this is an anxiety disorder brought on by exposure to life threatening or violent events....What in the world would that have to do with not eating meat?

Crispian Paul 11 years, 3 months ago

The food at Local Burger is the BOMB, especially if you are someone to whom meat does not always appeal....I had a hot dog there and LOVED it, and was not scared as to what was really in it....

paladin 11 years, 3 months ago

Not eating meat will drive you to nuts.

Tychoman 11 years, 3 months ago

ragingbear do you honestly believe what you post?

Ragingbear 11 years, 3 months ago

Crispian, I would suggest you go back and retake that course.Specifically the part that talks about those that have a predisposition that has yet to manifest. The strain produced by trying to force the body to function without certain vital dietary components will commonly see those manifested.

Other external stimulus that can lead to smiler manifestation includes a significant physical trauma, an emotionally charged incident, such as being assaulted or mugged, car accidents and so on.

Ragingbear 11 years, 3 months ago

Of course Maui got down to what it really is. When the vegan lie was exposed countless times, he went off about how it is evil to hurt animals. So, what this is, is not an issue about diet at all, but some radical lying to us in order to promote their radical agenda.

HelenaHandbasket 11 years, 3 months ago

??!! Ragingbear, it is not a radical agenda to speak out about something one finds objectionable. It is also not a radical agenda to behave in a way one finds acceptable, and to 'correct' others' misstatements regarding said beliefs and behaviors in a public forum. Radical?

I personally have found craters in your 'facts' and the supporting arguments of folks on the other side of this one, both sides failing miserably to convert the other because it's an emotional issue. Supply sources for the facts, folks.

My own beliefs are that it's cowardly to eat the flesh of other creatures unless you're willing to do the dirty work of killing and cleaning. You're only truly acting in a natural way if you produce your own food, and short of that, a team effort is close, but you still wouldn't ever eat much meat in this manner.

If you can't stomach that, then your consumption of meat is unnatural.

The factory farming of animals putting a pile of flesh on your plate is an unsustainable method of production that will lead to mass disease requiring ever-greater scientific intervention to defeat prion-based, bacterial, genetic and viral disease amongst the unusually large groups of animals in an enclosed environment...oh, wait...that's happening...

Ragingbear 11 years, 3 months ago

Helena, you did nothing but verify my point. That post sounded like you were frothing at the mouth.

paladin 11 years, 3 months ago

Did someone say he/she loved a hot dog? OK!

HelenaHandbasket 11 years, 3 months ago

I'm actually trying to stop laughing at the nonsense everyone is making up to convert the other side- crying, maybe, frothing? Not quite.

Why does it seem radical to you? The simple act of being contrary with what you believe?

Can you argue that we don't need to eat massive quantities, but could be perfectly healthy with small amounts of animal products- not necessarily meat, but eggs and dairy? Somehow millions of East Indians are, and they seem to be able to procreate just fine...I think they can produce sperm.

And I agree, B12 is just HARD to do without. We are omnivorous. The main difference in my thinking and that of some others here is that I'm convinced we need to be more ethical in our consumption, not necessarily pretend we haven't got an omnivorous trend and that we are herbivorous. My point is that being omnivorous is not license to overeat and treat animals without any dignity or conscience.

My point is not radical, even if it is a rant, and I've only supplied it as my opinion. It's interesting that you find anything contrary to your opinion so extreme.

Ragingbear 11 years, 3 months ago

For breakfast, I intend to have shredded swine flesh and flattened unborn chicken embryos. Mmmm.

Ragingbear 11 years, 3 months ago

That is absolutely true Marion. And everything needs to be deep fried in butter and smothered with cheese and served with ranch dressing sauce.

gr 11 years, 3 months ago

"And I agree, B12 is just HARD to do without. We are omnivorous. "

And where do animals get B12?

Crispian Paul 11 years, 3 months ago

Ragingbear, I got an A in Psychopathology, and therefore will not be taking your advice to re-take the course. Perhaps you should sign up for a course in psychopathology so that you can remedy your psychobabble issue (thanks for helping me put a name to it, Tanzer).

Emily Hadley 11 years, 3 months ago

Try to breathe next to a hog farm and you'll forget about your canine teeth and evolution. There's nothing evolved about locking animals in crates, feeding them corn, and pumping them full of antibiotics and hormones, it seems like a step backward.

I wouldn't be vegan if I had any faith in the animal industry putting humanity over profits. Factory farms cause diseases in the people who live around them as much as the animals.

I didn't think I could ever give up the crispy bacon on my BLTs, but learning that I was responsible for the things explained in this article made me feel like I had to be accountable for my choices. We can't control what others do, but we can't pay them to do it and excuse ourselves from the blame.

The health problems suffered by families around these farms are inexcusable.

It's really just about education. The animal industry is so secretive about how your food animals are treated that it is now considered TERRORISM to do anything that exposes their practices. Even legally providing public information, (through a website, for example)-- if it results in lost profits or even "potential" lost profits-- can land you in prison for years, thanks to the recently passed "Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act" (link to bill below).

The animal food industry spends so much on lobbying to protect its profits that making your own decision to be actively informed is the only way to get honest information about what they do. Lobbyists control our congressmen and senators much more than we do, unless many people are informed and speak out to their representatives.

These huge companies are the biggest polluters in the country, many of their cruelest methods are literally unnecessary, animals for food use much more energy than eating the same nutrients in vegetables, and they are banking on your machismo to keep getting your money AND making you clean up after them with your taxes.

There are lots of local farms from which you can buy healthier, safer meat which has been raised traditionally, rather than in a factory. Whatever you eat, find out where your food comes from before making any assumptions about it. What we were taught as children is not at all the reality of the food we eat.

Some sustainable local meat producers can be found through this site. The Farmer's Market always has local meat producers, maybe in addition to these.


lefthanded 11 years, 3 months ago

Homer: Are you saying you're never going to eat any animal again? What about bacon? Lisa: No. Homer: Ham? Lisa: No. Homer: Pork chops? Lisa: Dad, those all come from the same animal. Homer: Heh heh heh. Ooh, yeah, right, Lisa. A wonderful, magical animal.

Emily Hadley 11 years, 3 months ago

"Meat is murder, yogurt is burglary."

Actually, the fast food and veal industries would not exist as we know it without the dairy industry.

The abuse of dairy cows reduces their life span from about 18 to about 4 years, and at only four years old, their bodies are so badly abused that they cannot even be slaughtered for normal beef products. They produce 100-500 times their natural milk due to the abuse, and as they must be inseminated annually to produce milk, their male offspring comprise the veal industry.

The bodies of factory dairy cows can only be used for low-grade hamburger, and that cheap supply of low-grade beef is the only reason the fast food industry can maintain its profit margins.

If you buy milk or cheese, you are heavily subsidizing not just ground beef and fast food chains, but veal, which many omnivores consider to be too cruel to consume directly.

Again, it really ticked me off when I found this stuff out and decided I couldn't even eat cheese with a clear conscience. Why do money-hungry jerks find a nasty way to do everything??

Cheese has lots of salt and opiates in it (to create calm, sleepy calves, I believe) both of which can be very addictive to humans. Makes it really hard to give up... I think I did it by eating more chocolate.

Tychoman 11 years, 3 months ago

RT stop making this a political issue. Then again, you don't know how to talk about anything that ISN'T political.

trinity 11 years, 3 months ago

oh's not even 3 p.m. and i'm craving a bbq sannich, triple threat-ham, beef, turkey. mmmMMMM.

i guess it'd be nice to be as perfect as some who've posted. i embrace my imperfections&have beef, pork, chicken, turkey, blah blah blah-whenever i choose.

windex 11 years, 3 months ago

Factory production of meat and dairy products is truly horrible. But I don't understand vegans' objections to eating these foods if the animals are raised locally, organically and responsibly. Why is it OK for a coyote to eat a chicken but not OK for a human to eat a chicken? The only way we live is by the death of other creatures, and I don't think you get to escape this fact, even if you forsake all flesh (including eggs! what the heck is wrong with eating eggs?)

Emily Hadley 11 years, 3 months ago

Vegans do not necessarily think it is absolutely wrong to eat flesh, they simply choose not to.

It could also be seen as a form of laziness or stress-free living. Without doing a bunch of research, I can't know which nail polish or Drano is actually really toxic and which PC ones are truly safe; thus, I just avoid the products altogether. I found I often didn't have the energy to research my meat and thus found myself ordering and shopping vegan more often, just to spare myself the worry and the time.

When you have to research something every time you buy it, it's often easier to just avoid it. Ignoring the obvious ethical and environmental issues isn't a choice for some.

The environmental impact of a vegan diet can be much more sustainable than a meat-heavy diet.

Many people assume that they should try to share info with others because it took them so long to learn the facts about animal food production. That can be annoying with any issue, but if you are comfortable in your position, you are less likely to get worked up about it.

Everyone has their reasons, but these are just some of the many choices we make everyday about what we do or don't do, so we can be consistent in our values, get through our day, and sleep easy at night.

: )

Mauidreaming 11 years, 3 months ago

Don't worry right-thinker, most vegans are well aware of what to avoid. Sickening that animal products are in just about everything but concrete, huh? Like Emily said, it's just all about educating yourself and making an educated decision. But I think most of you will have a hard time doing that by some of the posts I've read here where people's comments are "eat meat", "eat bbq", etc. Now that's an intelligent conversation!

And by the way, being vegan has nothing to do with trying to be perfect. Humans will always cause damage no matter how lightly we try to live on this planet. BUT, they try to live their lives doing the least amount of harm to all living creatures as they possibly can.

BTW, I just have to ask this question. Please help me understand why an animal that has its life taken to feed our bodies is given the least amount of respect and kindness of all the animals by humans. Doesn't that just seem odd. I would think that especially Christians (which I'm sure most of you will claim to be), would live by the Bible and give these "food" animals the utmost respect. After all, they are making the ultimate sacrifice for you. I've just never had a meat-eater explain that one to me.

Oh also, this whole "humane meat" thing is ridiculous. There is no such thing as "humane" slaughter for one. Last time I checked, cows weren't clicking their hooves saying "yippee, I get to be a burger"! So even though an animal is raised somewhat normally (not in a confined building), their deaths are anything but humane and normal. And quite frankly, it makes me sick that these industries have highjacked the word "humane" to describe raising and killing animals for food when again, it is anything but humane. Besides, like I said before, people don't need to eat animal flesh, their mammal secretions and their embryos to survive on this planet anymore.

Emily Hadley 11 years, 3 months ago

right_thinker, are you never exhausted by having to remember the arbitrary rules about meat?

eating cow meat is OK horse meat is not rabbit meat is OK under certain circumstances squirrel meat is generally looked down upon catfish meat is OK salmon meat... maybe OK, depending on the source turkey meat is always OK dog meat is not OK sheep meat is generally not OK hawk meat is frowned upon possum meat is never OK unless you're stranded chicken is ALWAYS OK in any form at any time

et cetera...

These 'right' or 'wrong' rules are so very culturally subjective, despite the fact that they are all simply the bodies of animals. They are all living things that experience hunger, pain, fear, and even society. Seems that as far as slaughtering and eating them is concerned, there isn't too much difference... I wouldn't know a dog meat burger from a horse meat burger.

Vegan is easy--if it comes from animals, you do without it. Skin, fur, meat, bones, whatever, you do the best you can to be educated about products before you buy them. Just as Tommy Hilfiger was selling dog and cat fur coats advertised as faux or rabbit fur, people can be deceived into consuming something they would not approve of otherwise.

Leaving it all alone frees you from such troubles as trying to justify why neither dog fur nor horse meat are not acceptable while it is acceptable to eat chicken meat and wear calf skin and rabbit fur.

It may be hard for you to see this view, but perhaps that is because education is the key. Perhaps you have been marketed to to the point of that disinformation surpassing your solid education of animal products. You can't make any sound decisions in life if you aren't educated and informed.

Being vegan often happens naturally as people simply continually strive to make their choices more sound and less complicated.

opinion 11 years, 3 months ago

It's kind of funny you brought Christians into this, Mauidreaming. It is obvious that you believe that being a vegan is the way to happiness and health. You want to share that with others. If you had THE answer to the ills of your fellow humans, and did not share it with everyone, you would be considered selfish and evil. That is not what you chose to do. Bless you. You chose to share what you believe, to be the good news or the gospel. You must accept that what you claim will come under scrutiny - that you will be ridiculed. Some vegans will be arrogant and pushy and will give all vegans a bad name. Be prepared to have to answer to everything every vegan does that is bad. You can expect this to last for thousands of years. You can expect people to take things out of context and have claim inconsistencies when none exist. Then after you have answered the critics soundly, a new generation will come in and start the cycle over again. Don't be pushy. Speak to those that want to hear but cast no pearls before swine. (pun?)

Don't be discouraged if what you claim is true. Time will flush out fads and raise up Truth.

BTW - 1) I believe most of those you are trying to assign Christianity to have stated before they are not and 2) Christ ate a lot of fish.

scenebooster - you knew I wouldn't let it pass! ;^)

gr 11 years, 3 months ago

"I am amused at the vegetarian products which are advertised to taste "just like the real thing"!"

Those are for the Emilys in the world who really really like meat, but for a political statement choose not to eat it - at least when others are watching. There's no real principle involved other than objecting to how meat is produced. This way, they can pretend to eat the "real thing", but technically they are not.

You can have your "beef" AND make a political statement at the same time.

Emily Hadley 11 years, 3 months ago

Amen! Enlightenment and a KU victory in one night.

Richard Heckler 11 years, 3 months ago

Meat eaters sound angry and insulted. The vegans do not seem angry at meat eaters so one might surmise that over and above cholesterol meat instills angry typing.

The letter author is a very calm and easy person to be around. She and her other travel around using old deep fry oil for fuel in their vehicles. She and her sister actually traveled to the west coast pulling a RV trailer with a truck powered by used vegetable oil. Quite resourceful.

Cholesterol may be an animals way of seeking revenge?

Cholesterol Cholesterol is a waxy, fat like substance found in all animal products (i.e., meats, dairy products and eggs). The body can make cholesterol in the liver and it can absorb cholesterol from the diet. Cholesterol is essential to the body and is used to build cell membranes, produce sex hormones, and form bile acids, which are necessary for the digestion of fats. It is essential that you have some cholesterol for optimal health; however, when blood levels are too high, some of the excess is deposited in the artery walls, increasing the risk for heart disease.

Doug Peschka 11 years, 1 month ago

I would LOVE to have a face-to-face debate take place between Judy Carman and Raging Bear. Of course, such a confrontation will likely never happen unless Raging Bear shows up at one of Judy's sidewalk videos on Friday [or is that Saturday] nights at 8th & Mass, if they do that again this year.

Judy, Raging, are you each up to the challenge?

As a vegan and former Animal Rights activist - and I use the word "former" very deliberately - I applaud the efforts of these activists to try to make the world as safe a place for animals as it SHOULD be for humans.

Their finest hours are when they provide hands-on assistance to suffering or endangered animals directly. A project a few years ago that succeeded in finding a new farm home for feral cats on the KU campus was Animal Rights activism at it's true best.

I was there. I saw some of it happen.

That said, I do NOT share Judy's belief that humanity is on some threshold of evolving from "Homo Sapien" to "Homo Ahimsa". Sadly, that is only a fairy tale of a future that WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

People can make a difference - and everyone should continue to try. But as long as there are humans, there will be slaughterhouses. And as long as there are slaughterhouses, there will be battlefields.

While I and my wife do not support these things [slaughterhouses, circuses, lab tests, etc.], neither of us has any illusion that they will ever be fully abolished from this earth.

Is compassion for all living beings deeply spiritual? You bet it is!

Is it exclusively "Liberal"? NO WAY!

If you take the words "Pro-Life" literally, they really do mean equal respect for all of life, animal as well as human, born as well as still within the womb. On this one issue alone do I stand in full agreement with Carman.

However, I challenge activists who fight for animals to beware of the dominion that New Age thought seems to have over much of the Animal Rights movement.

Let's always remember that it was a Christian-inspired man named William Wilberforce who founded the British Society For The Prevention of Cruelty to Animals [BSPCA], which was the forebearer of the American ASPCA, the first de facto national Animal Rights group organized in the United States.

He is the same William Wilberforce who fought for many years to end the Slave Trade within the British Empire in the early 1800s.

Let's be as compassionate in our living as we can.

With our eyes open.

Good night, and good luck.


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