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Archive for Saturday, August 18, 2007

Tiller’s abortion clinic temporarily closed

August 18, 2007

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— As Dr. George Tiller faces criminal charges that he performed illegal abortions, his clinic has been closed because of vandalism, his attorneys said.

The temporary closing of Women's Health Care Services in Wichita has been applauded by anti-abortion advocates, but abortion rights advocates say it has proven a hardship to some women.

"Women who have more difficult termination cases either come to Kansas or Colorado," said Julie Burkhart, executive director of Pro Kan Do, which is Tiller's political action committee.

With the closing of the clinic, Burkhart said, "That has left these women across the country with only one option."

But the anti-abortion group Operation Rescue has been "thanking God" that the clinic was shut down.

The group has kept a running count of the days since the clinic closed last month.

Cheryl Sullenger, senior policy adviser for Operation Rescue, said she didn't think the clinic was shut down because of vandalism, but added she wasn't sure why it has been closed.

Sullenger also disagrees that the clinic's closing has been a problem for women seeking an abortion.

Most women who receive late-term abortions at Tiller's clinic are from out of state, she said, and so they would be willing to travel elsewhere.

Women's Health Care Services is one of the few clinics in the United States that provides late-term abortions. It is the target of frequent protests, and Tiller was shot outside the clinic in 1993.

On July 4, unidentified vandals drilled a hole in the roof of the clinic, stuck a garden hose through and flooded a room, according to police. The suspects glued the water spigot to keep it going, police said.

"It caused a lot of damage," said Gordon Bassham, a spokesman for the Wichita police.

No arrests have been made.

He said the clinic's security cameras captured the images of two masked suspects but no other details.

Some women who would have gone to Tiller's clinic have gone to one operated by Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri in Overland Park, officials there said.

"Not being able to access that service locally is an inconvenience at a minimum and has the risk of causing delays," said Peter Brownlie, president and chief executive officer of Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri.

In June, Tiller was charged with 19 misdemeanor counts for allegedly failing to get an independent second opinion on some late-term abortions. Tiller has said he has done nothing wrong.

His attorneys said the clinic was closed because of the vandalism and increased protests. In a statement, they said Tiller temporarily closed the clinic "to make absolutely certain that these acts of sabotage have not created any physical or medical risks to his patients."

Burkhart said the clinic will resume operation next week.

Comments

KS 7 years, 2 months ago

It's about time! Too bad it's temporary. That will draw some fire this morning when the left finally wakes up.

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Richard Heckler 7 years, 2 months ago

Violent group of pro-llfers in the state of Kansas I'd say. From what I know God is not with you on this deal and your hateful overtones. God might ask you to pray for support of your hateful acts not only against Tiller but against the women whom they are directed. Moreover the hateful Operation Rescue leadership and members maybe should be seeking therapy.

As i said God is not with Operation Rescue and the hateful mission anymore than God gave the supposedly "born again 1984" George W. Bush permission to march around the world killing people in Iraq or Afghanistan. Or Blackwater Inc group of mercenaries who leadership is also 'born again" permission to become a Bush sidekick in the killing of Islam believers in the mideast. What all seem to have in common is the practice of Christian Facism.

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TheOriginalCA 7 years, 2 months ago

cynical,

As abortion clinics seem to be a place of liberal worship you might have a point.

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Ragingbear 7 years, 2 months ago

Who says terrorism doesn't work?

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yourworstnightmare 7 years, 2 months ago

By whatever means necessary.

Vandalism is a "gateway drug". This story (and ensuing thread) nicely illustrates the nature of intemperate ideology, dogma, and hate.

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bearded_gnome 7 years, 2 months ago

Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord; He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored. He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword; His truth is marching on!

[chorus] Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! Glory! Glory! Hallelujah! His truth is marching on.

I have seen Him in the watch-fires of a hundred circling camps; They have builded Him an altar in the evening dews and damps. I can read His righteous sentence by the dim and flaring lamps; His day is marching on!

[chorus]

I have read a fiery gospel writ in burnished rows of steel; "As ye deal with my contemners, so with you my grace shall deal; Let the Hero, born of woman, crush the serpent with his heel, Since God is marching on."

[chorus]

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kansasbrandon 7 years, 2 months ago

Killing babies is worse than vandalism.

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bearded_gnome 7 years, 2 months ago

One entry found for contemn.

Main Entry: con*temn images/audio Pronunciation: k&n-'tem Function: transitive verb Etymology: Middle English contempnen, from Middle French contempner, from Latin contemnere, from com- + temnere to despise : to view or treat with contempt : SCORN synonym see


people are typically not being killed inside churches unless they're following ancient mayan tradition! likening this vandalism to church vandalism...they're miles apart.
hope the work of these two has discouraged at least one from killing her baby, because that's what it is all about. the lunatic left has to make up euphamisms for the baby and the killing of the baby...tells much that they really know what they're doing is wrong. thought third trimester abortions were to be illegal except in life/health threatening circs for the mother. now comes word that Tiller wasn't consulting as he should and the "health" provision he had was things like transatory stress or depression. tiller has put boatloads of money into the dems in this state to keep his operation going, including gov. C. Bilius.

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Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 7 years, 2 months ago

I'm sorry, but why is it that I get the feeling the water hose destroyed all of Tiller's records from 2004-2007. "Oops, sorry, I wrote all of the information with my water soluble pen since I kept staining my pockets and now all my diagnoses are gone as is the name of the referring doctor. We had to throw all the records out. So sorry."

Vandalism is certainly deplorable for any reason, but that clinic should be protected and filmed like Fort Knox by now and I'm betting the real reason they're closed is to spend the last few days cleaning up their records before the pro-life bunch gets their petitions signed for another prosecution.

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lunacydetector 7 years, 2 months ago

Al Gore would've won the presidency if his supporters wouldn't have aborted their offspring 18 years prior to that election.

Wichita must be proud. BTK, Dachau On The Plains, the Carr Brothers, the list could go on and on. Has Wichita's crime rate decreased? I doubt it.

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kansasbrandon 7 years, 2 months ago

My child is adopted. Before he was put up for adoption the Planned Parenthood people were encouraging the biological mother of my son to abort him. When I see the amazing person he is today I am saddened that anyone would have suggested to end his life. Abortion is a terrible injustice to unborn children.

If Planned Parenthood and Tiller had their way my son would be dead, murdered by them.

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kansasbrandon 7 years, 2 months ago

Biologically speaking, what is the purpose of sex? Hello people! It's called the reproductive system.

Listen, I'm all for pro choice - BUT THE CHOICE HAPPENS BEFORE YOU GET LAID!

After that you must take responsibility for your choice.

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funkdog1 7 years, 2 months ago

b3: If you think it's mostly liberals getting abortions, you are sadly, sadly naive. People of all backgrounds, religions and moral compasses get abortions. Even women who are pro-life.

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monacle 7 years, 2 months ago

I am a right wing nut; therefore I should be strictly against abortion. However, as abortion rates have increased overall crime rates have decreased over a 30 year period of time. So, perhaps the correct fetuses are being eliminated. It is very conflicting for me.

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kansasbrandon 7 years, 2 months ago

Monacle: using that logic we should "eliminate" (kill) all at risk children too. I bet the crime rate would go down even more!

This logic doesn't work.

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Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 7 years, 2 months ago

Monacle has hit the nail on the head for why abortion continues to be legal. Many of the people who claim to be its opponents are perfectly happy with who's being aborted. Abortion is heavily utilized by the minority community and they are far overrepresented in the number receiving abortions. If we actually did away with abortion, all of those babies would be born.

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jayhawkrx 7 years, 2 months ago

I love how the pro-life crowd wants to control what other people do. They are all adults, they can make their own decisions. They will have to live with the choices they make. As for the previous assassination attempt on Tiller and with Operation Rescue embracing it, it just goes to show you how fanatical these people are.

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monacle 7 years, 2 months ago

So the bottom line is that abortion she be more price effective.

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Ragingbear 7 years, 2 months ago

I looked in the Yellow Pages, I could not find the Anti-Church of Beelzebubba, could you possibly contact them and have them send some missionaries over? I am quite interested in joining. Thanks.

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Sigmund 7 years, 2 months ago

So here's the deal. I am expected to believe that a group of radical right wing conservative anti-women, anti-choice, Christian wacko's who were no doubt controlled by Carl Rove (he has more free time now) sneak through a locked gate and past working security cameras they knew would not be monitored by a security guard, climb onto the roof and use a garden hose that can easily be crimped or cut just to dump water into Tiller's clinic?

It never occurred to these "terrorist" that 10 gallons of diesel fuel and a flaming soaked rag combined with the associated water from fire suppression would have accomplished much more damage? And they did all of this at a time when Tiller is facing 19 counts of criminal prosecution or possible Federal RICO prosecution where his records might be subpoenaed? Sorry, it doesn't pass the smell test.

But I guess if I believed that a late term fetus just a couple of week from being a live birth of a human being and easily viable in any hospital in the nation, is NOT a baby, I could believe anything.

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Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 7 years, 2 months ago

Sigmund:

So you agree with my point that Tiller probably did a number on his own records. How about my point that the reason Tiller is still in business in conservative Kansas (and nationally) is because a lot of folks who are supposed to be against abortion are perfectly happy with who's being aborted and like monacle are conflicted about stopping the practice?

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sourpuss 7 years, 2 months ago

I don't care what people do with their bodies or their children as long as they leave me alone about it. Sure, abortion is a sad choice, but I also feel sad about Christian Scientists who won't give their children medicine too. Once we start to dictate what people -have- to do with their bodies (sex, abortions, breastfeeding, immunizations, circumcisions, etc.) it could become a slippery slope. Just grit your teeth and accept the fact not every child can be saved. Send some money to UNICEF, and at least try to help some children who already have a life - just not much of one.

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Godot 7 years, 2 months ago

"said Peter Brownlie, president and chief executive officer of Planned Parenthood of Kansas and Mid-Missouri: Not being able to access that service locally is an inconvenience at a minimum and has the risk of causing delays. "

With the result being the birth of a child. How tragic.

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Godot 7 years, 2 months ago

What purpose does it serve Rothschild to "report" this event today? The vandalism occurred on July 4.

This is from the KC Star, dated August 10 (more than one week ago)

"Meanwhile, Tiller's clinic remains closed. A statement from Tiller's attorneys said the closure, which began two weeks ago, was due to "increased protests and acts of vandalism."

What gives, Rothschild? Do you have an agenda, or are you just out of touch?

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waydownsouth 7 years, 2 months ago

I just wonder where peoples morals are. There is such a thing as right and wrong. And trying to prove immoral behavior with slander and finger pointing does not make you right. And i just want to puke when someone tries to answer for god. He does not need people putting words in his mouth. "Truly children are a gift from the Lord; the fruit of the womb is a reward" (Psalm 127:3). Write what he says not what you personally think.

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storm 7 years, 2 months ago

I think the article is not correct. It is not a clinic. Abortion is one service that is provided there. It is a women's health care facility. Would you call a foot doctor's facility a toe-nail extraction clinic?

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Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 7 years, 2 months ago

The facility has had armed guards, at least during business hours, for a long time. I suspect it's also patrolled throughout the night. The "vandalism" is fishy, and could justify a multitude of missing data in a court of law.

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Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 7 years, 2 months ago

Morrison has the data from 2003. He has indicated that once this case is done so is his investigation. Not satisfied with that, a petition is being raised by either OR, or KFL to demand a grand jury investigation of Tiller on the same charges for 2004 - 2007. I don't think anyone in law enforcement has those records. Hence a pre-emptive strike on his own records might be the more intelligent part of valor for Tiller.

Having said that, no I am not a lawyer, nor do I have any legal expertise. Your speculation is as good as mine and yes, I'd love to hear from competent legal counsel, enlightenment being at least one purpose for these blogs.

Good questions, that's as good as I have to offer.

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Godot 7 years, 2 months ago

I wonder what the insurance adjuster will have to say about this so-called vandalism, that is, if an operation like Tiller's could even get insurance.

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Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 7 years, 2 months ago

Agnostick:

Perhaps an easier way of saying it is that I'm projecting. If I had an office full of incriminating evidence and many enemies trying to put me in jail, the evidence would have a very short life span.

I suspect the reason why water was chosen over the diesel fuel option is that he can continue to work around the water damage, but working in the charred remains of a burned out building would be more difficult. Again, personally, were I looking at criminal charges, the building would be gone.

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Sigmund 7 years, 2 months ago

Agnostick- Just how did these religious right wing conservative terrorists who "cased the clinic" and wore masks so as not to be photographed know that the security camera were taping but not being monitored by a security guard who would call the cops as soon as they hopped the fence? They go through all this trouble an the best they can do is leaving a garden hose running?

Get real, I have had more damage from a rusted hot water heater. I am sure both you and I can think of a lot more creative ways to damage Tillers clinic permanently after going through all that bother to get in. How is it they were genius's about security camera's and monitoring, but so lame when it came to damage? A garden hose of running water doesn't really terrorize anyone, does it? They didn't need a fuel pump, two ten gallon cans of fuel and a lighted rag and they could have added fire and smoke damage to the water damage from sprinklers and firefighters.

No one knows who did this, but to confidently ascribe the action to radical Christian Supremacist Terrorists is nearly as ludicrous as Paul Mirecki claiming that he was beat up by a violent gang of Jesus freaks in the middle of a country lane, in the middle of the night, while he was looking for an IHOP.

The fact of the matter is there are two maybe three Doctors in the entire nation who will perform abortions as late in a pregnancy as Dr. Tiller, and there is a reason for that. Ripping nearly full term babies out of women piece by piece is an unpleasant businesses. It is only allowed to protect the life of the mother and the Law requires a second opinion from a Doctor with no relationship and that detailed records be kept. And all this occurs during his prosecution for 19 crimes? I was born at night, but not last night.

But I guess if I could be convinced to believed that a late term fetus, just a couple of week from being a live birth of a human being that would be easily viable in virtually any hospital in the nation, is NOT a baby, I could be convinced of darn near anything.

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ndmoderate 7 years, 2 months ago

"...if you and the rest of your bigoted, intolerant, godless, secular-progressive crowd..."

and

"...with the frothing at the mouth confused idealogical buffoons on the far-left, there is no conisistency or sense in your drivel."

in the same post! Outstanding there, broken_record (I mean, R_T).

Frothing at the mouth, indeed.

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Sigmund 7 years, 2 months ago

Agnostic, nice try. We are talking specifically about the "attack" at Dr. Tiller's "womens health clinic" (which is probably true, unless you happen to be late term female fetus just weeks from being born) and his current legal difficulties with current law, and not abortion generally. My guess is you and those of your ilk don't care about those females.

Late term abortions are allowed under very specific set of condition under Roe v Wade and Roe v Bolton. It is alleged by the current Kansas Attorney General, Paul Morrison, that Tiller repeatedly violated that law and his medical and business records will be relevant to the case. If he is convicted he will most likely lose his medical license and practice. It would be very convenient, not to mention defining the word ironic, if those records went missing or were destroyed in an attack by radical right wing religious wackos prior to discovery and trial. But as they say, God works in mysterious ways!

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pace 7 years, 2 months ago

god as two masked men. Masked because they just wanted to control the situation, not take responsibility for they behavoir. Pigs. Self righteous phelp type think. no respect for other people, no respect for god. Saying god did it. no, two masked men aint god.

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yourworstnightmare 7 years, 2 months ago

Sigmoid,

Your idea is wishful thinking and conspiracy speculation. Do you have any real evidence to back your claim that Tiller engineered the vandalism so that the records would be destroyed? Do you have any evidence that records were indeed destroyed? This was not mentioned in the article.

Your idea is plausible but is utterly unsupported by any evidence. Then again, innuendo and baseless accusations are usually enough for the extreme anti-abortion right.

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jumpin_catfish 7 years, 2 months ago

so much human potential wiped out by abortion, none of us can be happy about that fact irregardless of anyone's rights.

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Sigmund 7 years, 2 months ago

Yourworst, I have as much evidence for the theory that this was an inside job meant to be a cover to destroy incriminating evidence as the RagingBeer, Agnostic, or you for that matter have for a group of Christian Supremacists Terrorist directed by Fred Phelphs, which was my point.

Since you missed it, I'll repeat just for you. "No one knows who did this, but to confidently ascribe the action to radical Christian Supremacist Terrorists is nearly as ludicrous as Paul Mirecki claiming that he was beat up by a violent gang of Jesus freaks in the middle of a country lane, in the middle of the night, while he was looking for an IHOP."

Really, try to keep up. We can't always keep going over material we have already covered, just for you.

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Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 7 years, 2 months ago

Let me repeat what I wrote above in response to Agnostick:

" Anonymous user

Uhlrick_Hetfield_III (Anonymous) says:

Agnostick:

Perhaps an easier way of saying it is that I'm projecting. If I had an office full of incriminating evidence and many enemies trying to put me in jail, the evidence would have a very short life span.

I suspect the reason why water was chosen over the diesel fuel option is that he can continue to work around the water damage, but working in the charred remains of a burned out building would be more difficult. Again, personally, were I looking at criminal charges, the building would be gone."

Is their anyone here who wouldn't follow such a path? Really, which one of you would say "OK, here's the evidence, I'll fax it over."

I'm reminded of an insider in the Johnson administration who noted that had someone caught him with incriminating tapes as they had caught Nixon that he would have politely offered to send a truck over with all the tapes and the people involved to his congressional antagonists only to have the truck and contents miraculously disappear on the way.

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Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 7 years, 2 months ago

Oops, sorry, If that's not clear enough, let's be honest. Would the preponderance of the evidence suggest an inside job at the facility? Answer: Yes. And, so?

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bearded_gnome 7 years, 2 months ago

sigmund, it is quite telling that in their prejudiced overheated hysteria they automaticly blame radical Christian anti-abortion protestors.
I agree, I'd like to know if the hole in the roof just happens to line up with the records room!

tiller's case is actually quite a threat to the bought-and-paid-for AG who had to file these charges despite his wishes, proabortion leanings, and the grease in his palm; also, the case poses a threat to Governor C.Bilius who has herself run interference for killer tiller and taken a boatload of his money.

yes, we know that tiller has gone to extremes to justify his late-term abortions including transitory 'depression' by the mother.

yes, Aggie, I do care about the other %98. again, you are woefully wrong as a source on the thoughts of those you hate...which kinda stands to reason.
I know that something like %95 of abortions (all abortions) are actually abortions for birth control. using abortions for birth control is a dreadful practice, killing the child for the error of the parent or parents. you nymrods always throw up the "rape, and other unlawful sex. that only accounts for about %5 of all abortions. and, often it is the abuser or child rapist to takes the poor girl to the "clinic" thus furthering his abuse. btw, that was mrs. gnome's experience so don't give me some kind of a line that I don't know because I sure as he|| do!
personally I think the only abortions should be permitted for rape, statutory rape, and other situations where the woman has not had the opportunity to give her consent. but even in those cases I would encourage a woman in such circumstances to keep the child and give birth to make an adoption. again, why kill the baby for the violation of one parent?
Aggie, you need to seriously look at yourself in the mirror. you think yourself so morally superior, but only in a pick-and-choose set of values. it seems you have quite a psychological reaction to us Christians which might represent a struggle in your own heart which you overcompensate against to prove to yourself that you really don't feel some attraction to the values and practices of Christians. there really aren't very many "christian radicals" or "christian terrorists."

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bearded_gnome 7 years, 2 months ago

oh, just to expand, after the abortion which her abuser forced her to take, mrs. gnome then was unable to conceive for the rest of her life. so, if she had carried that child and adoption was the next step, at least she would have had one child.
yes, the abuser forced her to have that abortion thus furthering the abuse. you losers never think of that, just how many are older brothers, fathers uncles or just men not allowed to have sex with the young girls who come into the clinic. and because of your hatred of the previous AG, you would rather allow those adult male abusers to go unpunished than to catch the abusers in your zeal for abortion. some one above said it right, that abortion "clinics" really are like churches to you lunatic liberals. at the last democrat national convention a vendor was selling t-shirts proclaiming "I had an abortion" to be worn proudly by women! it is like a woman should have an abortion in order to really qualify as a liberal. wonder why the t-shirt didn't say: "I killed my baby in my womb, inflicting pain, fright, and maybe slow death."

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yourworstnightmare 7 years, 2 months ago

Sigmoid,

I read your crap, and obviously I was not convinced. Still you have presented no evidence.

"Yourworst, I have as much evidence for the theory that this was an inside job meant to be a cover to destroy incriminating evidence as the RagingBeer, Agnostic, or you for that matter have for a group of Christian Supremacists Terrorist directed by Fred Phelphs, which was my point."

I agree. They were likely not directed by Fred Phelps. In fact, they were likely not directed by anyone, rather inspired by the likes of Operation Rescue. We can use islamic terrorism as an example, where semi-autonomous cells of like-minded fanatics carry out terrorism in the name of the cause, not as a direct order from anyone.

And I suppose Tiller shot himself, and all of the documented vandalism and terrorist threats directed against him and his health facility were self-inflicted? The entire organization of nut-job anti-abortion fanatics is all a clever ploy by Tiller. In fact, I bet Operation rescue was started by and is funded by Tiller.

It is a convenient time for you to be so credulous, but to equate the two hypotheses is ridiculous. Such thinking would get you laughed out of the squad room, the court room, or the laboratory.

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yourworstnightmare 7 years, 2 months ago

bearded_gnome,

Since you have invoked the sad story of Mrs. Gnome, I have some questions.

1) Was the abuser a christian? Was he pro-life?

2) Is it proven that the abortion caused Mrs. Gnome's sterility? Might she also have had trouble delivering the baby?

3) Could you clarify this line: "just how many are older brothers, fathers uncles or just men not allowed to have sex with the young girls who come into the clinic" Who are you talking about here?

Answers to these questions would clarify your viewpoint.

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imastinker 7 years, 2 months ago

I don't think his viewpoint needs to be clarified. Those details are very personal and irrelevant to the discussion.

Why would it matter what the answers to these questions are?

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yourworstnightmare 7 years, 2 months ago

"Those details are very personal and irrelevant to the discussion."

Duuuhhhhh? Ya think? Has it dawned on you, Einstein?

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imastinker 7 years, 2 months ago

yourworstnightmare -

You are the one saying it's a personal decision and then requesting more information. I have always stated that I consider the fetus to be a human being, who has certian inalienable rights which include the right to life. The mothers rights do not trump these, just as your personal decision to kill me (hypothetically) does not take away my right to not be killed.

I do understand your position. If we were talking about a histerectomy or gall bladder removal, I'd be on your side too. I'd think any reasonable person would be able to understand my position as well though. You keep looking at my arguments with your assumption that the baby is no more important that a gall bladder. Of course they don't make sense. They are completely out of context.

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imastinker 7 years, 2 months ago

Agnostick -

why not get live birth records from hospitals AND from abortion clinics?

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deec 7 years, 2 months ago

glad to see a righty admit upfront that the "The mothers rights do not trump these." Good to know that women's right to control their own bodies is less important than the embryo. Perhaps you'd like us barefoot in the kitchen as well?

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imastinker 7 years, 2 months ago

deec -

What you said is exactly what I am talking about. You are twisting what I said into something else, and taking it completely out of context.

I understand that you don't think it's a baby until whenever. Why can you not understand that because I think it's a person, I also think it should have the same rights as you and I? To you it's about the right to control your own body. To me, it's protecting another body inside yours.

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imastinker 7 years, 2 months ago

Agnostick -

I have no clue why he did that. I'm not a lawyer. Maybe he wanted to look up the case to get the rest of the story?

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redwaggoner 7 years, 2 months ago

I'm a little late speking out on this subject, but an abortion, to have or not to have, is NO ONE'S BUSINESS SAVE THE MD & THE PATIENT. THIS IS A PRIVATE MATTER BETWEEN THEM AND NOT OPEN FOR PUBLIC DEBATE!!!!!!!

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Uhlrick_Hetfield_III 7 years, 2 months ago

"this is a private matter between them and not open for public debate!!!!!!!"

Never demand from others that which you wouldn't want them to impose on you. Nothing is beyond public debate.

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acg 7 years, 2 months ago

I can't wait to see what happens when the bible thumpers finally get roe v. wade overturned and then all of those unwanted babies are clogging up the welfare system. It's funny to me that those who are generally pro life are republican, who are in turn generally anti compassionate help/welfare/any sort of assistance to anyone whatsoever. Ya'll can't have your cake and eat it too. What do you want? To pay for all of the unwanted babies or to allow people to terminate unwanted pregnancies? See, the problem with idiots, like yourselves, that look at things from an emotional standpoint, you don't see the ramifications of your piss-poor decisions. So, whilst you all are out there, traipsing about vandalising abortion clinics and screaming "the poor children! think of the children", more and more folks are signing up for that monthly check. And while you head off to church and count your blessings in that oh so parochial way, be sure to say a prayer for those kids that will be beaten that day because they're being raised in an unloving environment that never wanted them in the first place. Or ask God to feed those poor kids that you don't want to open up your pocket books to help, but are starving because you forced their mother to have her 6th kid. Or better yet, maybe you'll take a minute, you know inbetween singing the hymns and the sacrament, to ask whatever your God may be to look over the ones that are being molested in that foster home they landed in because their parents couldn't afford them and were forced to give them to social services. Either way, I'm sure the children appreciate everything you're doing for them. I'm sure God, too, wherever and whatever she may be, is also cool with it.

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acg 7 years, 2 months ago

Site your sources, please? Don't just throw out numbers that you picked up off of The O'Reilly Factor or some other talking head idiot republican ragshow.

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acg 7 years, 2 months ago

And as far as spin goes, I don't have to spin anything. Nothing I said was spin. Who's leading the pro-life movement? Religious people. What's going to happen when R v W is overturned? The country will be flooded with babies that weren't wanted. Who's going to pay for these babies? And feed them, clothe them, educate them, insure them, nurture them and raise them? The parents that didn't want them in the first place? You? You seem to be anti-abortion. Would you like some unwanted babies?

Ya'll anti-abortion people don't use your brains, you use your emotions. First of all, you cite God as your reasons for being anti-abortion, regardless of whether or not your God is my God, you still seek to control my actions based on your religions. And when it comes right down to it, you are more concerned with what happens to a small cluster of cells than what happens to the child that cluster eventually becomes. I have a more logical approach. I'm more concerned with what may happen to that child after it is born, and what hardships it will most likely have to endure. But that's me. I generally try to use logic when forming decisions rather than, say, toe a party line or base my beliefs on whether or not a fictitious person living in the sky is going to give me the proverbial smack down after I'm dead.

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acg 7 years, 2 months ago

BTW, col. bull, outsidethebeltway? Really? Are you honestly taking your information off of a conservative blog? Well no wonder you're so confused. Come on back to the pack. We'll take care of you.

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acg 7 years, 2 months ago

Apples and oranges, my dear. Since a human person can't conceive or carry the california condor or the black footed ferret, it really has no merit in this discussion. What we're discussing is the conservative right's insistence on getting their religion involved in law making that will affect all women everywhere (notice I said women because believe it or not this is a woman's issue). So what do condors and ferrets have to do with this discussion? It's like the Wookie Defense. It means nothing. And if you're so deluded that you think that outlawing abortion won't bring about a baby flood then I have a bridge to sell you and I'll make you a really good deal. We'll use some of that good ole fuzzy math you republicans are famous for when hammering out the price tag, okay?

As far as if there is a god, I have no idea. I'm not arrogant enough to proclaim with all of my faith and might and insistence that there is a god, but I'm always open to the possibility. On this one, the burden of proof is on you all. You people seem to be so sure of yourselves, so much that you're willing to try and alter everyone's lives based on that premise. I think before you should be allowed to do that, you prove it to us. Prove to the world that there is a god and that god is bothered by abortion and you won't get any more fight from me. Until that day, do us all a favor and keep your praying in your closet, where god (coughcough) told you to.

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Ceallach 7 years, 2 months ago

For those so gallantly bearing the angst of dealing with Christians and "their" God, look at the bright side. You'll only have to tolerate Christians until the day your die.

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acg 7 years, 2 months ago

I don't think I've ever heard a liberal say that a baby is not a human. I've heard much evidence to whether or not that cluster of cells should be considered a life, as defined as when that cluster grows a heart beat, etc. But what that cluster means to me and means to you may be two totally different things, right? So why should you and yours get to decide? What business is it of yours if I decided to have an abortion? The only way that it affects you is if it is your child or you have to raise it. Since it wouldn't affect you, stay the hell out of it.

Ceallach, Christians believe in the hereafter and forever serving their lord and all of that nonsense, so if you're looking forward to death and meeting god, that's all well and good. A lot of us, though, are just looking to enjoy the time we have on this rock and aren't too concerned with the afterlife. So why should our time on earth be hampered by the religious right? Why should laws and rules that govern and affect me be based on your belief in your god? Why can't any of you explain that with any other answer than one that just feeds your total need to control? Christians and their faith have been about nothing but control since that faith was conceived. You people don't care about our mortal souls. You're just pissed because we're having more fun than you are.

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sfjayhawk 7 years, 2 months ago

The same constitution that protects our right to keep and bear arms also protects a womans right to choose - or at least it should. Thank god there are still places like the North East, the Great Lakes Region and the West Coast that protect all their women - and once again, Kansans prove that they are gun loving creationist that subjugate their women - hummm sounds strangely like radical Islam..

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Ceallach 7 years, 2 months ago

First I want to say that with "Christians" as with any other group of people, there are many who are in no way dedicated to anything other than their personal agenda, and it more often than not, raises them up and serves their own ego rather than the the larger good.

Everyone's time is altered by others in some way. Currently the USA is still considered a Christian nation. However, according to many polls and supposedly knowledgeable people, that is changing. If it does, then it will be the Christians time here that will be hampered by the beliefs, or the lack of beliefs of others. The laws and rules that govern this nation could be changed to reflect the lack of belief in God. If the laws are changed they will feed the need of the unbelieving to control, I see no difference there.

You are mistaken if you think true Christians are not concerned with the mortal souls of all people. Many feel as I do, that the existence of God is revealed to people in many different ways, at different times in their lives. He is able to reach any who truly seek that answer. I share my faith when asked but try to avoid turning what I consider to be a stabilizing rock into a weapon against another person. Many do not want to know the answer because they think they are having more "fun." They would be mistaken. There is tremendous fun and joy in one's relationship with God and with their fellow man. As far as control goes, determining what your god will do or not do, what you will believe or not believe, and what you will or will not use as a basis for determining right from wrong is indicative of a person whose god is their own intellect and reason. I'm not trying to be difficult. You had many questions and I just hoped to answer from another perspective.

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deec 7 years, 2 months ago

As a matter of fact I am a woman, 5 pregnancies under my belt, four live births and one spontaneous abortion. God was my abortionist. I also have four grandchildren. I was married for 22 years to a hyperreligious catholic adulterer who believed in neither birth control nor abortion. We'll call him Tarzan. I once considered abortion for one of my children, but changed my mind before the appointment. I changed my mind. It was my choice. See how that works. Now that my credentials are on the table, what are yours? What is your justification for holding the rights of a blastocyst, embryo or fetus as superseding the rights of living breathing women?

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acg 7 years, 2 months ago

Just because you're regurgitating some crap you read in a fictitious book that some old man wrote doesn't mean it's what god wants parkay. I wish more of you were smart enough to realize that.

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deec 7 years, 2 months ago

"I have always stated that I consider the fetus to be a human being, who has certian inalienable rights which include the right to life. The mothers rights do not trump these,"

So to you the rights of an embryo supersede the rights of the woman. Women who contribute to society,say as leaders of nations for example, have rights less important than the blastocyst, embryo or fetus they carry. How is that out of context?

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EireishHawk 7 years, 2 months ago

deec (Anonymous) says: Women who contribute to society,say as leaders of nations for example, have rights less important than the blastocyst, embryo or fetus they carry.

"blastocyst, embryo or fetus they carry" I hope deec is not a woman. If so, she should never have children! Self absorption seems to be a common denominator among females who are so intent on their right to destroy the children they have conceived. Its not like the kid forced its way in!! What about my life, what about my education, what about my career, what about me, what about me, what about me. Definitely not mother material so they would be better off barren.

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waydownsouth 7 years, 2 months ago

acg (Anonymous) says:

Just because you're regurgitating some crap you read in a fictitious book that some old man wrote doesn't mean it's what god wants.

acg (Anonymous) says:

Site your sources, please?

So I ask you. What part of the Bible is Fictitious? And do you have proof of this? You want facts I want facts.

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deec 7 years, 2 months ago

No answer, I see. Typical. Perhaps folks who think women who want to control their own fertility should be barren should get themselves fixed. They don't sound like very good father material, either.

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