Archive for Tuesday, September 19, 2006

Disqualification

September 19, 2006

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To the editor:

Most disagreements among candidates and political platforms do not have to do with principle, but rather policy. It is a basic principle that people have a right to the safety of their lives and possessions. That's why we have laws to fight crime. There aren't candidates who campaign on opposite sides of the principle with some saying, "fight crime" and others defending the "right to crime." Instead, there is an agreement on the principle, but disagreement on the best policy to fight crime.

When a policy dispute is over whether people deserve the protection in the first place, the policy is the principle. To allow abortion, the taking of a human child in the womb, is to go against the very principle that every human life deserves protection. SB 528 dealt with late-term viable babies.

If a candidate said, "I support terrorism," would you say, "I disagree with you on that, but what is your plan for health care?" Hopefully not. Similarly, we can disqualify political candidates on the one issue of abortion, the taking of a human life and the physical, emotional and spiritual pain that their mothers and fathers suffer.

Donna Roush,

Lawrence

Comments

Lepanto1571 8 years, 7 months ago

swbsow: "Better yet, why don't we require every single citizen who is opposed to abortion to adopt at least 1 child. Surely you wouldn't mind unless, of course, you hate babies and children."

Logicsound04: ZING!!!!!!! Great one!

Tychoman: "I like that idea about adoption, making very pro-lifer adopt. Have fun shopping for children and spending out the wazoo."

swbsow: "I get tired of those opposed to abortion stating adoption is the answer when I have yet to see the majority of them adopt children. Yes, there a pro-lifers that adopt & for those people, I have tons of respect. They live their beliefs instead of paying lip service to them."

swbsow: "... why are there so many children in the foster system?"

Primarily because there are a lot of selfish and lost "parents" out there raised near the level of animalism that think sex is a sport and are reinforced in that view by a culture that thinks, contrary to nature, that there shouldn't be any consequence associated with it.

Also because the law skews toward the rights of birth parents who are either abusive, neglectful, substance addicted (or a combination of these) leaving a wake of children languishing in foster homes for years marking time until their lost parents figure it out (or don't). The adoption list is not near as long as you think in the Foster system. All children, I have personally come in contact with, that came up for adoption were, in fact, adopted, including the three (to date) we adopted out of the 21 we have had in our home. 3 stayed, 18 went back to marginal circumstances. We and many others would be glad to adopt these children on the margins. There are plenty of families, out here doing something about it and wouldn't dream of using these children as some sort of political punch line.

Quit the untenable strawman arguments and get involved! Write your representatives to raise the bar on deadbeat parents if you've bought into the "unwanted" children theory. Do not use these kids for a paid political announcements and marginalize them as unwanted, merely paying lip service to being "compassionate."

Don't slander the thousands of families willing to love these kids. Many families want them, even if you don't, and are kept at a distance by the State. The State treats these kids like property and acts accordingly, mostly to their detriment.

Don't use them as a bull$hit argument in an attempt to justify AOD.

Adoption is the only ethical alternative. There's a waiting list of parents ready to "relieve you of your burden." Of course, you'll have to bear the burden of hearing that first cry, which instantly washes away the idiot notion that what resided in your for 9 months was merely a "thing" to be disposed of as you see fit. And THAT's what you don't want to face!

Tychoman 8 years, 7 months ago

You can't prove that the "vast majority are for convenience."

Tychoman 8 years, 7 months ago

Abortion is NOT the same as killing a baby, stop spinning the definition.

Tychoman 8 years, 7 months ago

Prison? Then you'd have something to look forward to. The inmates might even vote you Ms. Congeniality.

jonas 8 years, 7 months ago

Shoot. You know, I had expected that this time, we would talk about this issue together instead of just yelling and talking at each other, and some qualified concensus would be reached. Well, next time its sure to happen.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 7 months ago

What if you want to eliminate abortion by eliminating unwanted pregnancy.....????

Tychoman 8 years, 7 months ago

Marion, people ask that same question of you every single day.

Sacerdotal 8 years, 7 months ago

Those of you opposed to abortion are entitled to your opinion.

A good bumper sticker: "Against abortion? Don't have one."

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 7 months ago

But calling a heart a spade doesn't make it so.

that's what I'm trying to tell you.... calling a baby a lump of cells doesn't make it so.

Tychoman 8 years, 7 months ago

For you vehement pro-lifers, try thinking realistically for a change: You can't stop people from having abortions. Thus, you might as well keep them regulated and safe.

Also no one's mentioned sexual abuse victims? A woman's violently raped, is impregnated, then what? You make her suffer through pregnancy, labor, and then seeing the result of the most traumatic event of her life?

Tychoman 8 years, 7 months ago

AILAB I didn't see any "pregnancy is too hard, etc." excuses on this board. Maybe you're reading the wrong pamphlets.

Lepanto1571 8 years, 7 months ago

logicsound:

"Well too bad. Abortion is legal and is going to stay that way."

Not a compelling argument; reactionary and arrogant.

You proceed from the assumption that something made "law" is permanent and cannot be changed based upon further reflection of its ethical foundation.

Two words:

"Dred Scott"

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 7 months ago

F*cking immature???? lol mmmKay...

I would think if your main source of income was abortion related you'd be pretty pro abortion.

the pro-choice lobby is a multi million $ business. Now I'm sure these are all pure alturistic people who would do it for nothing -- just for the good feeling it gives them when they go home to their families at night but... I bet the money is nice too.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 7 months ago

You've all convinced me. Obviously the solution is to require vascetomies for every male upon reaching puberty. that would solve this whole issue.

Tychoman 8 years, 7 months ago

And my point about 400 old white men was: they are the ones who make the laws. It's none of their business, it's up to the woman, it's her body, it's HER potential child.

I like that idea about adoption, making very pro-lifer adopt. Have fun shopping for children and spending out the wazoo.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 7 months ago

Tychoman said:

"I like that idea about adoption, making very pro-lifer adopt. Have fun shopping for children and spending out the wazoo."

I like the idea of making pro-abortioners take the remains and making arrangements for the burial Have fun digging those graves. Plus we could start a new teeny coffin industry.... hey I think I could have hit on another income stream here.

Laura 8 years, 7 months ago

Allow me to throw some fuel on the fire: the state adoption and foster care programs are so screwed up that most people who want to adopt don't go through them. It was easier to adopt a child from Korea than through Kansas SRS. I do support a woman's right to choose to terminate her pregnancy, and I do agree that a lump of cells is the "matter" that becomes a human being. Guys, no one is going to change his or her mind on this one. We're all just shouting into the wind.

imastinker 8 years, 7 months ago

Tychoman said:

"I like that idea about adoption, making very pro-lifer adopt. Have fun shopping for children and spending out the wazoo."

Yeah - that would teach us! We sure are stupid!

"And my point about 400 old white men was: they are the ones who make the laws. It's none of their business, it's up to the woman, it's her body, it's HER potential child."

No, it's a seperate human being. It takes two to make it. It's as much his as hers.

imastinker 8 years, 7 months ago

SWBSOW wrote

"Better yet, why don't we require every single citizen who is opposed to abortion to adopt at least 1 child. Surely you wouldn't mind unless, of course, you hate babies and children."

My wife and I have talked about it, but the waiting list is so long already, and we seem to have no trouble having babies on our own. We may still do it, but are young as of yet, and have one due in a month, and one 17 months old. Maybe later.

Tychoman 8 years, 7 months ago

Why should your judgment stop short before rule of law? Separation of church and state.

Having an abortion is NOT "killing the baby." That's such a low card to play, it's not as simple as that. Where on earth do you get the "whoever adopts your baby will abuse it"? Pregnancy is too hard? Your last paragraph is so convoluted. Jeez.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 7 months ago

I really don't believe that there are women out there just waiting to have an abortion or that they just do it because they can't fit into their prom dress


Well they are out there. I've known 3.

one had 5 abortions because the pill and the shots made her fat -- Abortion was her method of birthcontrol.

One got pregnant to trap her boyfriend, when he said he'd support her thru the prenancy but wouldn't marry her she did it to hurt him.

One did it because she wanted to go to school and just didn't have the time.

Terry Jacobsen 8 years, 7 months ago

I believe the phrase is, "if it's not a baby, your not pregnant." Women are not impregnated with dogs, cats, mice or anything else. That lump of cells that is growing in their uterus is a human being. It just isn't a complete one.

Terry Jacobsen 8 years, 7 months ago

Odd, when a woman drowns her five children in the bathtub, she is a monster. But a woman goes into a doctor's office and has her baby hacked to pieces and extracted from her body, she is just excercising the rights to her own body. Sounds wrong to me.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 7 months ago

Logic, you left out the telling the truth part.... that's the important thing --- to protect the women that are being lied to -- being told that killing their kid is an ok option to birth control and there are no consequences...... that's what should be illegal.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 6 months ago

Notice he said only WOMEN should not smoke.... mmmm??

Tychoman 8 years, 7 months ago

Life coming into a world torn apart by politics and conflict over natural resources? Bringing a new life into a world that might not be able to sustain it?

First of all, the decision, THE CHOICE, is up to the woman. It's her body. Hence, it shouldn't be up to 400 or so old white Congressmen up in D.C. to dictate what a woman does with HER body. Second of all, it's also the choice of the husband. Congress should have more faith in its citizens to make the right decisions.

Tychoman 8 years, 7 months ago

You want jokes, thinker? "My wife's cooking is so bad, we pray AFTER the meal. The flies pitched in and bought us a screen door!"

Rodney Dangerfield.

Tychoman 8 years, 6 months ago

Conservativeman, go away. You have no credibility. You have shown zero respect for any other poster on this forum that doesn't lick your boots incessantly.

Tychoman 8 years, 6 months ago

I'll stop trying to make you feel like an idiot when you stop calling hate words meaningless--there's always meaning for some people, not always yourself.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 6 months ago

Vasectomys all around. do it at puberty and reverse it when two people decide to start a family.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 6 months ago

Sybil, vasecomy is an easy to reverse operation. pretty painless and would seriously reduce unplanned pregnancy. It would also save these poor men from being trapped into a relationship by one of us manipulative wenches and save them tons of child support.

Tychoman 8 years, 6 months ago

Show me my "hate filled speach." It must be some new bitter, angry vegetable hybrid I've never heard of.

You know exactly what connotation of that word I'm talking about, even if sybil misspelled it (as is her custom).

Tychoman 8 years, 6 months ago

Sybil you are disgusting for using sexist language like that.

Tychoman 8 years, 6 months ago

Sybil it wasn't just "FemiNazis" that set us off, you ignorant putz. You used a sexist derogatory term after that that can't be repeated.

Feel free to back up your point (for once) that "pro-choicers would KILL anyone WHOSE IQ is not EQUIVALENT to the norm." Use spellcheck next time, you're just embarrassing yourself.

Tychoman 8 years, 6 months ago

Don't use that hate word! Don't you DARE use a word like that! Where do you get the AUDACITY to use a disgusting word like that?!

Tychoman 8 years, 6 months ago

AILAB, that word is a hate word, pure and simple.

"I'd really love to know the story behind that." Make up your own, it's what you're best at.

Lepanto1571 8 years, 7 months ago

Tychoman,

"For you vehement pro-lifers, try thinking realistically for a change: You can't stop people from having abortions. Thus, you might as well keep them regulated and safe."

Well Tychoman, you might attempt a little realism; you won't be able to stop "viable" people from murdering one another, or committing arson or armed robbery, shall we apply the same logic?

"Also no one's mentioned sexual abuse victims? A woman's violently raped, is impregnated, then what?"

Do you have any idea of the miniscule numbers of abortions executed for the sake of sexual abuse? The vast majority are for convenience!

To demonstrate the absurdity of your argument, I'll give it to you: make abortion available for women impregnated due to sexual abuse. Do you now support the outlawing of abortion on demand for all other situations, (I means, since they're going to do it anyway).

Not much of an argument

Next strawman.

Tychoman 8 years, 6 months ago

Merrill, "pull and pray" isn't an effective means.

Sybil, pro-choice advocates aren't trying to use abortion as a birth control.

Lepanto1571 8 years, 7 months ago

swbsow,

"Normally, you are pretty thorough in your reading but for whatever reason, you missed the ball on my post(s)."

No, I think you are trying to have it both ways. The following proceeded:

swbsow: "Better yet, why don't we require every single citizen who is opposed to abortion to adopt at least 1 child. Surely you wouldn't mind unless, of course, you hate babies and children."

Logicsound04: ZING!!!!!!! Great one!

Tychoman: "I like that idea about adoption, making very pro-lifer adopt. Have fun shopping for children and spending out the wazoo."

A strawman argument that should never be made by reasonable people.

BTW, you haven't seen me rant yet!

Respectfully,

Lepanto

Lepanto1571 8 years, 7 months ago

swbsow: "Better yet, why don't we require every single citizen who is opposed to abortion to adopt at least 1 child. Surely you wouldn't mind unless, of course, you hate babies and children."

Logicsound04: ZING!!!!!!! Great one!

Tychoman: "I like that idea about adoption, making very pro-lifer adopt."

Yeah tychoman and rest, coercion seems to be your preference whether against unborn humans or those attempting to safeguard their "natural" right to life.

Everything you personally want as a "right" regarding abortion is to be granted at the expense of another. These are no longer the conditions of authentic liberty. There's another word for what you espouse.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 7 months ago

Posted by logicsound04 (anonymous) on September 20, 2006 at 2:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"calling a baby a lump of cells doesn't make it so."


Original point. I feel like I saw a similar point on a recent post....oh wait--I made that point about referring to cells as human beings.


roflmao.... you really don't see it do you?? ok I'll type slow. Why is your assertion that they are a lump of cells more valid than my assertion that it's a baby?

I COULD be wrong.... But so could YOU. the difference is that if I'm wrong every one is ok and if your wrong someone is dead.

What is it makes it so two people can look at the exact same thing and see something completely different. Or veiw a situation and imagine totally opposite outcomes....

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 7 months ago

You make a good point stinker, when I was in school our sex education consisted of a nun telling us that holding hands would lead to pregnancy. We had maybe 2 girls in the 4 years I was there get preggers.

Now we ram sex ed.down our kids throats starting in kindergarten and there are more than 13 different B.C. methods and we got pregnant people popping up all over the place. what is the deal?

SWB I had sex, not 10 times a day, but quite a bit for over 12 years and never got pregnant. (I didn't belive the nuns but I did get on birthcontrol) Seems to me that if you use reliable birthcontrol and get pregnant anyway... that baby must have a really good reason for wanting to be born....

imastinker 8 years, 7 months ago

logicsound04 wrote

"If you are going to rank the order of whose rights come first, why on earth would you rank the rights of a person behind that of a POTENTIAL person?"

The mother has had an opportunity to live her life, that baby hasn't. The mother has a responsibility to do what is best for the baby, and that is never death, or termination. The mother has had the opportunity to grow up, live her life, and make her decisions. That baby has nad the opportunity for none of those. Yes, I think the babies rights are MORE important than the mother.

The worst part of this is that it's all preventable, or 99.9% of it anyway. One would think that contraception would make abortion unnecessary, but it seemed to be the catalyst that made abortion legal.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 7 months ago

Posted by logicsound04 (anonymous) on September 20, 2006 at midnight (Suggest removal)

As_I_live,

That's right--you are entitled to your religious/morality-based opinions, but your judgement of others must stop short of the rule of law, otherwise you are essentially a king. You can't legislate being free from sin.


How come MY judgement must stop short of the rule of law, but your's doesn't?

I say it's a bad thing to kill your baby.... Every one has coniptions because I'm passing my morals off to other people.

You say, go on! it's ok! don't worry your empty little head, you shouldn't waste 9 months of your life - pregnacy is too hard - who ever adopts your baby will abuse it - child birth is messy and it's not really a human. In fact, Don't even bother telling your parents if your underage, what do they know? And that's just fine.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 7 months ago

Posted by Tychoman (anonymous) on September 20, 2006 at 10:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Why should your judgment stop short before rule of law? Separation of church and state.

Last I looked I was not a church.... if I am, the IRS owes me a ton of $$ on the taxes I've been paying.

Posted by Tychoman Having an abortion is NOT "killing the baby." That's such a low card to play,


And the 10 or more people that BTK killed were not in his eyes people, they were simply projects. It's easier to kill someone if you don't have to accept it's a person.

Posted by Tychoman Where on earth do you get the "whoever adopts your baby will abuse it"? Pregnancy is too hard? Your last paragraph is so convoluted. Jeez.


I was simply listing the reasons giving on this blog as why abortion is better than adoption. YOu'll have to look for the reference youself, it makes my stomach hurt to re read some of the hatefull crap..... some pro "choicers" are so narrow minded.

Mercy 8 years, 7 months ago

40 years ago there were only about 3 sexually transmitted diseases. 40 years ago, sex education we have today would have been unheard of. Prior to 1930, all Christian denominations were against birth control. They understood that sex was a holy and sacred joining of a husband and wife. Yes, there were problems even 40 years ago, but not to the degree we have today.

How do you define "sex education"?

Sex education...then contraception...then abortion. Planned Parenthood had a gross revenue of $882 million last year and a net profit of $63 million. Someone's getting rich, but there are still a lot of abortions. After 40 years, is it time to re-evaluate whether the contraception and sex ed idea is working?

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 7 months ago

Posted by Tychoman (anonymous) on September 20, 2006 at 8:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Life coming into a world torn apart by politics and conflict over natural resources? Bringing a new life into a world that might not be able to sustain it?

First of all, the decision, THE CHOICE, is up to the woman. It's her body. Hence, it shouldn't be up to 400 or so old white Congressmen up in D.C. to dictate what a woman does with HER body. Second of all, it's also the choice of the husband. Congress should have more faith in its citizens to make the right decisions.


Maybe your baby is the one that will change all that. And i agree it is a womans body. It was her body when she was getting knocked up too... CHOOSE A BIRTHCONTROL AND USE A CONDOM..... You can have sex 10 times a day for 20 years and not get pregnant if you use that big fancy brain god gave you. If you HATE BABIES and don't want one.... take your body down to the doctors and have your uterus jerked out.

as for the 400 old white congressmen? Only white men are against abortion? are they the ones getting all these girls knocked up?

Mercy 8 years, 7 months ago

The original letter referenced SB 528 which deals with late term viable babies. Since 1998, the only 2 legally acceptable reasons in KS to obtain a late term abortion is to save the life of the mother or prevent "irreversible impairment to a major bodily function" of the mother. None of the reported abortions past 22 weeks gestation in KS have been done to prevent the death of the mother.
When an infant survives the abortion, he or she would require a birth certificate. This is per KS law as well as the federal 2002 Born Alive Infant Protection Act. SB 528 would have addressed both of these issues.
Abortion is legal, but there are some restrictions especially with late term abortions.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 7 months ago

*The reason you cannot give rights to a fetus is because there is no guarantee that a fetus will ever become an independant organism. **

??? so once the fetus is born, if it is born with a defect of some kind and can never become a fully independant organism.... can we stab it in the head and suck it's brains out??? what about granpa drooling in the corner over there? Can we hack him up and put him down the garbage disposal?

since when are there guarentees in life. you might start out a perfectly good 'independant organism' and then get hit by a car and become a dependent organism. can we kill you then???? What if we decide people with red hair really just aren't worth all the trouble with their pale sunsensitive skin and their freckles.... shall we just line um up and shoot um....?

What if someone thinks your an infidel because your name is goldberg. infidels aren't really 'human'.... off with their heads!!!

perception is everything.

Ragingbear 8 years, 7 months ago

Donna, you represent 90% of what is wrong with this country. Why don't you go over to the country that is more suited to you? I believe it is called Iraq.

xenophonschild 8 years, 7 months ago

Abortion is legal because a woman has the right to choose whether or not to bear and raise a child.

Abortion is legal in the United States. Abortion is legal in the state of Kansas.

Abortion is legal now, and it will remain so.

Those of you opposed to abortion are entitled to your opinion.

greyhawk 8 years, 7 months ago

Donna, The principle at issue is government control over your body. Terrorism is a red herring in your argument and has nothing to do with abortion.

Suppose that elected officials decided to pass a law requiring all women to serve one year as a prostitute. This seems to comply with your policy analysis so will you agree to serve your term?

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 7 months ago

Posted by xenophonschild (anonymous) on September 19, 2006 at 6:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Abortion is legal because a woman has the right to choose whether or not to bear and raise a child.

That's why there are 13 ways to NOT get pregnant. USE THEM..... pregnancy isn't an accident. Very few women are surprised by a gang of marauding sperm while walking along minding their own buisness.

How come I have a legal right to choose what comes out of my body if I want to kill a baby - but not what goes in to it if I want to smoke a joint. It is still my body.

A woman doesn't HAVE to raise a baby she bears. There is another "A" word out there... adoption. I'm not saying abortion should be illegal, I know there ARE rare cases where it is really the only choice, but to kill someone just because you don't want to deal with them is pretty barbaric.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 8 years, 7 months ago

"but to kill someone just because you don't want to deal with them"

Pregnancy and childbirth are a bit more than just "dealing" with someone.

Sacerdotal 8 years, 7 months ago

Abortions should be "safe and legal and rare." If the RRR could settle down a bit and allow for some realistic sex education and community support, this could be accomplished. Catholics, like many others, listen to their leaders' messsages, then follow, for the most part, their own conscience.

xenophonschild 8 years, 7 months ago

A lump of cells is not a "baby."

Societies evolve; regrettably, some individuals do not. Abortion is one litmus test, or marker delineating those who accept the present and future, and those who cling to the past.

We are required to tolerate those who cling to the past but we should not be expected to accord them any relevance. They should not be allowed to dictate or influence public policy, which is almost impossible in our beloved Kansas.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 7 months ago

I pushed two "lumps of cells" out of my body. they looked like babies to me.

When you see that teensie heart beating and feel that first little flutter of movement, I guess miricles make you stupid.

--------x says: Societies evolve; regrettably, some individuals do not. Abortion is one litmus test, or marker delineating those who accept the present and future, and those who cling to the past.

So, being able to justify killing something if you can convince yourself is not a viable living being makes you more evolved?

Babies by definition ARE the future.

Jamesaust 8 years, 7 months ago

"Most disagreements among candidates and political platforms do not have to do with principle, but rather policy"

I believe this is the starting point of the flaw in the author's argument. I couldn't disagree more.

I suggest the author spend more time examining the antecedents of the events she dislikes rather than the consequences. Else, she will continue in her reactionary stance and achieve nothing; she'll always be chasing the tail of the dog and wondering why she can't catch up.

"...we can disqualify political candidates on the one issue of abortion...."

As is often said: there are two groups of people in the world -- (a) those who divide people into two groups, and (b) those who don't.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 7 months ago

Here's a plan... let's require all males to get a vasectomy at puberty. Then when they and their partner choose to have a baby, or create a lump of cells, they can go get it reversed.

That would solve a lot of problems...
first off, We could have lots and lots of sex with no complicatons other than.... stds and aides. Secondly, way fewer abortions.
And women wouldn't be able to 'trap' a man by getting knocked up

Plus, doesn't neutering males keeps them more docile? So it might cut down on violence.

Marion says: A society which kills its young can not long endure.

That's true. a Mexican leader recently made such statement saying that because mexicans don't kill their babies, they will be able to out number amercans and more easily take back their land.

drewdun 8 years, 7 months ago

"Abortion by "choice" is murder; plain and simple and those who make the SELECTION are no different than Stalin, Mengele or the Mau Mau who killed the farmers, nuns, priests and any oppostion in Africa"

Twenty-five percent of pregnancies in the US end in abortion - you're saying that twenty-five percent of pregnant women are comparable to Stalin and Mengele?

Once again, there is a reason wingers have zero credibility.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 7 months ago

Logic, your assertion that abortion is neither right or wrong make me want to ask you , Have you ever met a woman that was PROUD of having one? Who could honestly look you in the eye and say Wow I feel so good about the contribution I just made to my community! if it makes your feel bad in your gut, it just might be classified under the 'wrong' column.

2

If I should have control over anything attached to my body, why is prostitution wrong and illegal. It's mine, if I can trade it for dinner and a movie, I should be able to get $25 cash.

3

If pro-lifers" demonize abortions--pro-choicers trivialize it by saying things like "abortion is a tricky emotional issue"--

That's makes it sound sort of fun, like dating a married man or putting your dog to sleep. Not the soul crushing self-esteem buster that is is.

whistlestop75 8 years, 7 months ago

If you repeal the abortion law it will not stop abortions...in the 60's there were many women who used coathangers...which got the job done...but also killed and or maimed the women desperate enough to do it...In fact self induced abortions probably would be found in your family tree...a mysterious relative that died at 14...16...20....never married...and the family rumors as to how it happened. It was usually lye that was used for soap making. By repealing the law, you are responsible for not only the unborn, but for the desperate girl/woman that would resort to self inflicted abortion. What happens to the children that survive the attempt? Are they healthy human beings? What makes anyone take up the banner on this issue when in the end it is between the woman and God?

badger 8 years, 7 months ago

The original letter writer said:

"That's why we have laws to fight crime."

Laws don't fight crime. Superheroes fight crime. Laws provide a social framework for defining what a community will or will not consider legally acceptable behaviour, and allow for a mandated set of punishments and consequences for actions in violation of the standards the community has accepted to designate what is or isn't harmful behaviour.

Besides, law totally doesn't have the style to carry off the 'cape and tights' look.

Linda Endicott 8 years, 7 months ago

A lot of you seem to think that before abortion was legal, that it didn't happen. Not the case, of course. If abortion is again made illegal, it still won't stop it from happening.

Richard Heckler 8 years, 7 months ago

Educating children about sex as well as the time,money and effort involved in raising a baby would be effective towards reducing the number of abortions. Then again so would birth control methods. Why the resistance? Why not be proactive?

badger 8 years, 7 months ago

I've never met a woman who was proud of her abortion, true.

I have, however, known several who were incredibly grateful to live in a country where it was safe and legal.

Spending some time in college doing peer rape counseling really helped me understand what it can mean to face the trauma of, "I think someone put something in my drink...I don't really remember what all happened, but I woke up in my living room the next morning...my period is late and I think I might be pregnant, but I don't remember anything..."

whistlestop75 8 years, 7 months ago

merrill...the resistance is not toward any of the things that you suggested...the resistance is to make abortion illegal...leave the law alone...let the woman decide...

whistlestop75 8 years, 7 months ago

Marion... Smell all the rats you want...abortion WILL happen one way or another...history shows that. Do you think that having it illegal will hurt the unborn any less? Do you think a coathanger is less graphic than a sterile knife? Get real...women have been self inflicting abortions for centuries and the aftermath and death statistics were not pretty. Why do you think it became legal? Because people wanted to kill babies? Because mothers and fathers wanted to protect their young daughters from back room abortions or self-inflicted abortions. Birth defects have reduced in part due to the ability to have an abortion. How many women that didn't want a pregnacy took care of themselves because of the baby? Not many...it is a decision between a woman and God...

whistlestop75 8 years, 7 months ago

tony88... Until you have lived thru Uncle Sam's draft you have nothing to complain about...these young men AND women volunteered to serve our nation. Most of them are NOT complaining...why are you?

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 7 months ago

Posted by tony88 (anonymous) on September 19, 2006 at 3:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

A society which kills its young can not long endure.


Does this include sending young soldiers to defend the rights of old white men?

Tony, those soldiers are defending more than old white men... have you looked around lately? they are also protecting young black women, small brown kids and middle aged yellow men. Melting pot and all that.

whistlestop75 8 years, 7 months ago

tony88...

Do you really think that the ones that died didn't know the risk when they took the Oath of Allegiance to the United States of America?...You have never taken the oath and it sounds like you have no desire to...don't try to assume that you know what the soldier thought when he/she died...

whistlestop75 8 years, 7 months ago

tony88... I try to never assume...and I served 4 years. Then you didn't have a clause to let you out if you requested it before 180 days into your enlistment...then once you swore the oath your skin became Uncle Sam's...I think within 180 days I would know if I wanted to stay...how about you?

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 7 months ago

So keep it legal just stop telling women that it's just a lump of cells. Tell the Truth about exactly what they are doing. Let the mothers be responsible for dealing with the remains of the child, a lot would change.

Just so you know... women still die from legal abortions. Tiller killed one not long ago. They don't always attribute the cause of death to the abortion - they don't want to unduly frighten anyone contemplating the proceedure. But infections, hemmoraging, etc.... still happen

Badger, your story is a good one. Those situations are perfect for the 'plan b' pill. I mean you KNOW if you had sex.....even if you can't remember it... there would be... well if you've had it you know what there is, you'd know.

I can only say thank god I knew I was putting myself in risky situations and liked to party and get out of control and got myself on the pill. Today, I'd be more scared of getting Aides from your scenario.
I can certainly understand how scary and sad those girls in that situation might feel. But, I don't see how killing the baby is fair. Or for that matter would do anything to improve the girls life in the long run. It's nine months out of your life.... Are we so selfish that we can't give up 9 months for another human being?

Not knowing what you did or was done to you doesn't remove your responsibility to the life that was created. I mean if a man said "well gee, someone put something in my drink and I woke up in my car. I guess I ran over a kid while driving impared." Could we just say... ok well that's ok... you don't have to be responsible in that case?

davisnin 8 years, 7 months ago

Here's an excerpt from an ABC news story. There was also a interesting poll that didn't hold its formatting so..

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/abortion_poll030122.html

Few Extreme Cases in Abortions

Data on why women say they had an abortion are scarce, but a 1988 study cited by the Alan Guttmacher Institute found that few were done for health reasons or because the pregnancy was caused by rape or incest. Most women cited financial concerns or problems with their relationships, or said they weren't ready to have a child.

imastinker 8 years, 7 months ago

I can't believe some of these comments.

Of course outlawing abortion won't stop them. Murder is illegal, and we have those too. Of course some people will try to perform unsafe abortions. That's sad, but people do lots of dangerous activities now, like drugs (which are also illegal). People know the risks before they do unsafe activities.

I know that pregnancies happen sometimes because of rape or incest. That's sad - but not nearly as sad as killing the baby. Adoption is a loving answer. People wait years to adopt currently.

As said, there are very many safe alternatives. Abstinence until marriage worked pretty well for me, and I am not as old as you are thinking - only 24. We are preparing for our second "lump of cells" to be born next month. I think I'm a lump of cells too, as a matter of fact.

A scientific definition of life points to conception being the start of life. It is viable, has a unique genetic code, and is only dependent on mommy to be born.

Having sex is currently the only way to become pregnant, so it's very avoidable. Just because that baby is inside a woman does not mean that baby does not have inherent rights. It's not about women at all, or the rights of the woman. They all come secondary to that baby.

yourworstnightmare 8 years, 7 months ago

Donna Roush, how do you feel about the death penalty, about the state taking a human life?

Tychoman 8 years, 7 months ago

Marion, don't compare abortion to the holocaust. That's so out of line.

whistlestop75 8 years, 7 months ago

Posted by as_I_live_and_breathe (anonymous) on September 19, 2006 at 4:38 p.m.

Just so you know... women still die from legal abortions. Tiller killed one not long ago. They don't always attribute the cause of death to the abortion - they don't want to unduly frighten anyone contemplating the proceedure. But infections, hemmoraging, etc.... still happen

So when abortion becomes illegal and women develop infections and hemmoraging from backroom abortions or metal objects inserted, they will be able to seek help from a doctor or hospital to get the needed antibiotics to cure the infections? Will they get arrested and thrown in jail for murder? That is why they died before... it was illegal and you want to go back to that way of life because you think you are saving babies? What about the babies that take weeks to die in the womb because the coathanger didn't quite do the trick? Don't even think that abortions will go away...WHY do you think it became legal?

xenophonschild 8 years, 7 months ago

I paid for three abortions as an undergraduate; two that were mine, and one for a friend who found herself in a fix with no support.

Thirty-five years later, I'm still convinced they were the right thing to do at the time. I've stayed in touch with two of the three women and they are mature, healthy, wonderful grandmothers with their own families and careers.

That is what our society is about now. We will not allow the past to be relived, to return to former misery and despair. You may not like it, but there's nothing you can do about it.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 7 months ago

Posted by xenophonschild (anonymous) on September 19, 2006 at 5:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I paid for three abortions as an undergraduate; two that were mine, and one for a friend who found herself in a fix with no support.

How very sad. Who knows what wonderful things a child from you gene pool could have produced. Why did you not get a vasectomy?

You right, there's nothing you can do about it now. death has a way of ending all hope.

whistlestop75 8 years, 7 months ago

Posted by as_I_live_and_breathe (anonymous) on September 19, 2006 at 5:43 p.m

You right, there's nothing you can do about it now. death has a way of ending all hope

And your point of view has already been proven in the past with many illegal abortions...WHY do you think they made it legal to begin with?

xenophonschild 8 years, 7 months ago

Important points are overlooked. Societies evolve. Eighteen-year-old kids don't have to get married, drop out of school, just because the girl got pregnant. That a child was not created may or may not be a tragedy; perhaps there's just as much of a chance the child could have been a monster, a sociopathic wretch.

Societies evolve. We have - and continue to - moved in the right direction.

Confrontation 8 years, 7 months ago

"When you see that teensie heart beating and feel that first little flutter of movement, I guess miricles make you stupid."

No, but spelling "miricles" just might. Also, why does everyone still consider their child to be a miracle? It's not like a baby isn't being born just about every second. Is it really a miracle when it is constantly being repeated? Isn't it just a process of nature? Can someone please explain to me why posters with "mom," "mother," or "mommy" in their names tend to have the worst grammar?

Tychoman 8 years, 7 months ago

I'm glad you're seeing the light, Marion.

sarcasm

Terry Jacobsen 8 years, 7 months ago

Seems like a one sided argument when the only people who can express an opinion are those who were "not" aborted. Who speaks for the millions of women who were never allowed to take their first breath?

whistlestop75 8 years, 7 months ago

TJ... No one speaks for them...just like no one speaks for the thousands of eggs that were fertilized and the IUD (birth control device) didn't allow the egg to attach to the wall of the uterus so they went down the tube...what is the difference on that one?...The egg is fertilized...self abortion...this logic is as sound as yours...

Terry Jacobsen 8 years, 7 months ago

Abortion is not a natural failure to implant, or spontneous miscarriage. It is a very artificial way of killing a living being, who left alone, will without a doubt become a complete human being. Sand turtles have more rights in this world than a child who is simply not yet complete.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 7 months ago

Ok Confont, you are an execption to the miracle rule, some lumps of cells remain so. And I'll pull out my 8th grade grammer book. sorry, didn't know the nuns were on this blog. didn't realize the letters asiliveandbreathe spelled mom - mother or mommy either. mmmm

let me guess, you've paid for abortions too. I've noticed that people who have had or paid for abortions refuse to call them babys.... not surprising since killers from muslims to BKT remove the idea that the victim is a human. Better to call them fetus, lump of cells, project, infidel. Other wise you have to live with knowing you sucked your baby into a sink.

Eighteen-year-old kids don't have to get married, drop out of school, just because the girl got pregnant.*

NO they don't. pregnant unmarried girls go to school every day. I did and as Confront points out.... I'm barely smart enough to post on a blog. THE WORD OF THE DAY BOYS AND GIRLS--- ADOPTION.....OR even better RESPONSIBLE SEX. (I know before you get your panties in a bunch confront, that's two words, get over it)

That a child was not created may or may not be a tragedy; if you get pregnant you and the man created a child. So who died which of you becomes god to make the decision whether it lives or dies?

there's just as much of a chance the child could have been a monster, a sociopathic wretch. or a dancer or a playwrite, the president who solves the mid east crisis or the dude who cures AIDS>>>> (there no e happy ?) Or just a little kid who gives great hugs. It's a miracle AND a mystery. like a fortune cookie or a box of chococates, you don't know what you'll get.


Posted by whistlestop75 (anonymous) on September 19, 2006 at 5:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

And your point of view has already been proven in the past with many illegal abortions...WHY do you think they made it legal to begin with?

to pander to irresponsible selfish people and to create another income stream for Doctors.

AS I said, keep it legal but tell the truth about what it is. Also convince stupid vain teen age girls that birthcontrol won't make them fat.

MALES . if you don't want to be a man and take responsibilty for creating a life, .... snip snip..... tie a knot in that sucker.

whistlestop75 8 years, 7 months ago

So TJ...WHY was the law changed? Was it because it was the "popular cry" of the day or was there a reason behind it...I have stated over and over posting here today that if you make it illegal, it won't go away...abortion has always existed...self inflicted...backroom butchers...do you think society has changed so much? I don't...

Lepanto1571 8 years, 7 months ago

Tychoman: "You can't prove that the "vast majority are for convenience."

Is that so?

"1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons..." "The Center for Bio Ethical Reform" http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

"About 13,000 abortions each year are attributed to rape and incest-representing 1 percent of all abortions." Alan Guttmacher Institute, the research arm of Planned Parenthood. Alan Guttmacher, Facts in Brief: Induced Abortion, 2002. "Abortion Statistics" http://www.family.org/cforum/fosi/bioethics/facts/a0027730.cfm

"Less than 2% say they became pregnant as a result of rape or incest." http://www.mccl.org/abortion_statistics.htm

Tychoman, the vast majority of abortions are for reasons other than sexual assault. Given the figures above, somewhere between 93% and 99% are for reasons other than sexual assault AND health combined. 93% 99% would be known as a "vast majority."


On another subject, the figures of catastrophe:

US Total abortions: (1923 2005): 47,041,000

Worldwide Total abortions: (1920 2005): 757,000,000 reported abortions, estimated 945,000,000 total abortions.

Estimated current global monthly average: 1,225,000 abortions

From: Section VIII of "Global Abortion Summary" © 2000-2004, 2005 by Wm. Robert Johnston. Last modified 4 November 2005. http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/wrjp337sd.html

"Global averages" primarily represent Western and Pacific-rim nations. A billion abortions! Islamic nations have a near zero abortion rate. So now, you do not only need to worry about the external threat posed by the more intrepid sons of the Prophet trading in the scimitar for the 767 and flying them into skyscrapers or sawing your Infidel son's head off, you get the added bonus (more sarcasm) of worrying about the internal (and more looming) threat of committing civilizational suicide by not reproducing ourselves, all the while listening to the sweet nothings of liberals waxing eloquent of what "virtue" the freedom to do so is and the "morality" of censoring our speech when speaking of the historical truths of the Islamic world. B.S!

Wake up! If you end up even having grandchildren, it will not be a pleasant world for them as the morning call to prayer echoes in their ears. But hey, you got yours and enjoyed your freedom, right?

Richard Heckler 8 years, 6 months ago

Do men not have to bear some responsibility for women turning up pregnant? Couldn't the male just pull the penis out as added insurance against a pregnancy? Males rarely are discussed as part of the problem so it seems to me that sex education is imperative in our school system as a means of being pro-active.

Planned Parenthood perhaps should present the material. Of course at the top of their list is abstaining. The additional information available is thorough.

Mothers I believe need to explain to their sons about women. Just because a woman accepts an offer for a ride home whether drunk or not is NO INDICATION that she desires to have sex. There are a lot of rapes in this small town which may be an indication that guys need to get a handle on their handle. Perhaps some open public discussion several times a year. Lawrence Journal World how about it starts with you promoting with a quite candid article.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 6 months ago

logic says "It's not just that fetuses "can't articulate", it's that they do not have a say because they have no interests, no motives, no desires, no sensations, no emotions, no thoughts, no perceptions, no existence."

I have to disagree. I had two of these alien viruses in my body. When I got upset, they kicked like fiends. When they heard music, they wiggled all around. When one of them wanted Alphabits and queso at 3 am... It made it's desires known and Alphabits WERE had. I've seen the video where they scream when you cut off a leg.
Babies are!

YOu can't even imagine that you are wrong. You can't accept that you might be misled. But.... you are.

Godot 8 years, 6 months ago

HGA, a terrorist who is considered either a martyr/ hero or a murderer makes the choice to put him or herself in that position. How we perceive their action, after the fact, does not change the fact that the act happened.

However, our perception of the value of the embryo/morula/fetus determines how we define it, and whether it lives or dies. Our perception determines the action. There is no choice made by the embryo/morula/fetus.

One might say that the human who determines the fate of the embryo/morula/fetus can be perceived as either a hero/martyr or murderer/terrorist.

It all depends on your point of view.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 6 months ago

dike ???? is the worst thing you've every heard tychoman? I am consistantly amazed at what people find offensive. I'd really love to know the story behind that....

so.... ummm ignorant putz... that's a cool word that a highly evolves intellegent gentleman like yourself uses to refer to someone they are conversing with?

Several months ago a man on the topeka naacp website wrote a letter refering to a "code book" white people used to refer to blacks.... I thought he was INSANE! but maybe he's right. Any one know where I can pick up a book that will tell me exactly what will offend who? Since it seems to change willy nilly... I can say willy can't I?

Never mind... I really really don't care that much.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 6 months ago

Dike is NOT a hate word! it's 4 little letters. It can't bite, it won't make your ears bleed. It only has the power you give it.

I'm thinking you must have had an artificial water barrier fall on your head.... am I close?

you freak out because someone says something YOUR tiny little mind finds offensive for what ever bizzare reason, but have no problem slinging your own "hate filled speach"

I say sir, YOU are the ignorant putz!

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 6 months ago

Reminds me of the drama queen that blows everything out of proportion for dramatic effect until finally it is old and no amount of drama brings out the desired effect.


Like Fred Phelps, the ultimate drama queen! He's totally bastardized the idea of "gay".... it now just means anyone that's not him.

Holy, I have a friend that is in a group called Dykes on bykes!.. ? So how do I ask her about what the group is up to? If it's a hate word, why is it on their banner?

tycho, i did try to find your posts with the mean talk.... but they must have been so mean they got removed.

Tychoman 8 years, 6 months ago

They take that word and use it against ignorant people like you. It's simple logic. It's also simple respect: when someone says a word offends them, stop using it, otherwise you're at risk for removal by LJWorld.

D*** is a hate word. People like you and sybil do not have a right to throw it around while saying it is meaningless, otherwise why say it in the first place? It's like saying something is "gay," it's ignorant.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 6 months ago

idiot too. As a complete idiot I take high offense at your use of that word. You're using it to make me feel like an idiot --- stop it --- And I like licking boots too so don't be making that sound like a bad thing.

See. Like abortion --- good or bad--- it's all in your head.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 6 months ago

Posted by Tychoman: I'll stop trying to make you feel like an idiot when you stop calling hate words meaningless--there's always meaning for some people, not always yourself.

So to get this straight..... Some words are bad. We don't really have any way of knowing which ones they are since some people can use all words and all people can use some words. We are all just at the mercy of other peoples whims and paranoia.

And some how Tych is the keeper of the word so.... we should consult him before saying or typing anything....

but he says we can slaughter babies all day long because like words.... they can be good or bad - it's a baby that a woman would die for or a lump of cells that can be flushed down a toilet, depending on who's making up the definition.

We can also prosecute a woman for smoking while pregnant because even though it's her body, her right if she wants to kill it... if she wants it but wants to smoke... well then, she has no right to do that.

No wonder people go nuts and start shooting.

Tychoman 8 years, 6 months ago

"Some words are bad." Duh.

It is her body, but we prosecute her for smoking because it harms other people. There's a difference but you're doing a wonder of a job taking my words completely out of context and turning them against me. You're fitting in great here.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 6 months ago

Posted by Tychoman: It is her body, but we prosecute her for smoking because it harms other people.

???

I thought you said it wasn't a people... just a bunch of cells....I think you just turned your own words against you .. Damn those sneaky treacherous words.

*And don't get caught throwing a bag of unwanted puppies in the river.....that'll get you in some BIG trouble.

Yeah then you are getting slammed by peta for hurting an animal - the environmentalist for polluting the river and the chinese for wasting food....

Tychoman 8 years, 6 months ago

No, read my post. A woman SHOULDN'T smoke at ANY time because it causes physical harm to other people around her. It's kind of hard being "a people" anyway, but I won't hold your high expectations against you.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 6 months ago

OMG Now I am laughing so hard pee came out my nose....

FREEDOM!!!! ..... except for speaking or smoking... but that's all... every thinf else is ok....

SMOKING causes physical harm.... Abortion doesn't ??? ..... A woman shouldn't smoke..... ever???? now you are the word police AND the 'what women should be allowed to do' police?

Please tych.... get help.....or go on the road. You could make a million dollars with jokes like that.....

Tychoman 8 years, 6 months ago

Pee came out your nose? Wow that's a pleasant visual I needed right now.

Smoking causes physical harm to people AROUND the smoker. It's a disgusting, self-destructive habit anyway.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 6 months ago

Tycho... are you sure that's supposed to be a T, not a P??

in the 50's smoking was cool, sexy and accepted.

any way.... I'm talking about the persecution of pregnant smokers for harming the baby.

in CA. a woman was charged with child endangerment because she smoked while she was pregnant.... HOW CAN THAT BE IF THE THING IN HER BODY IS NOT A PEOPLE? YOU said -- YOU SAID it is not a person. so if it's not a person how can smoking cause harm to it.????? by your definition --- IT CAN NOT.

Abortion is also a disgusting self-destructive habit but you seem to be ok with that.

as_I_live_and_breathe 8 years, 6 months ago

peeing in the pool is a disgusting, self-destructive habit anyway.

it will cause your suit to disintergrate and some people put chemicals in their pools so if you do pee in it -- it turns the water purple...

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