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It’s law - concealed carry upheld in House

March 23, 2006, 10:56 a.m. Updated March 23, 2006, 11:56 a.m.


How they voted

Here's how House members voted this morning on a motion to override Gov. Kathleen Sebelius' veto of the concealed carry legislation.

A yes vote was to override; a no vote would have sustained the veto and killed the concealed carry bill.

¢ Rep. Barbara Ballard, D-Lawrence, No ¢ Rep. Anthony Brown, R-Eudora, Yes ¢ Rep. Paul Davis, D-Lawrence, No ¢ Rep. Tom Holland, D-Baldwin, No ¢ Rep. Joe Humerickhouse, R-Osage City, Yes ¢ Rep. Ann Mah, D-Topeka, Yes ¢ Rep. Lee Tafanelli, R-Ozawkie, Yes ¢ Rep. Tom Sloan, R-Lawrence, Yes

— Qualified Kansans will be able to carry concealed guns as early as January under a bill put into law despite Gov. Kathleen Sebelius' veto.

The House overrode the veto, 91-33, today and the Senate, 30-10, on Wednesday. Both votes exceeded the two-thirds majorities needed to beat back a veto.

Sponsors Rep. Candy Ruff, D-Leavenworth, and Sen. Phil Journey, R-Haysville, were pleased.

"Kansans are going to be safer," Journey said. "Many criminals are rational human beings, and when they realize there is a good chance that they could get shot committing a violent crime, they'll probably decide to do something else."

Ruff said she pushed for the proposal at the request of two rape victims in her district.

She said the law gives Kansans a choice.

"If somebody feels a need or is compelled for their own individual reasons to carry a concealed firearm, now they can do so, if they are law abiding citizens," Ruff said.

But Rep. Paul Davis, D-Lawrence, voted against the measure.

"I don't think putting more guns in the hands of people in public places is going to lead to greater public safety," he said.

Under the bill, Kansas residents 21 or older with no criminal background or history of mental illness or drug abuse could obtain a four-year permit after completing an eight-hour training course.

The law takes effect July 1, but it will take several months to ramp up the administrative process to grant permits.

The first permits are expected to be issued in January 2007.

Sebelius vetoed the measure on Tuesday saying it would endanger the public and law enforcement.

After her veto was overridden, Sebelius issued a statement, urging the Legislature to get to work on other issues.

"Now I'm hopeful the Legislature turns its attention to its most important work, which is making sure all Kansas children attend quality schools," she said.

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Sigmund 12 years, 3 months ago

So when and where can I put in my application for a permit?

ModerateOne 12 years, 3 months ago

Whew! At last the legislature did something that will really help society.

Never know when you might need to shoot a bothersome squirrel. Or a bothersome neighbor.

And think how much more bothersome it would it be if the already bothersome squirrel or neighbor ran off when it/he/she saw your gun? It makes it all work much better if you can sneak up on them while they are unsuspecting.

avhjmlk 12 years, 3 months ago

gl0ck--they do have a strange form of Bar reciprocity now, but you have to have practice for 5 years in another state.

bluedog 12 years, 3 months ago

Wooohooo...can't wait to get my gun and carry it around! Nothing like a psycho with anger issues, walking around with a pistol!

Fatty_McButterpants 12 years, 3 months ago

Funny comments coming from some of you. I find it especially ironic that they come only a few days after a U.S. Navy veteran shot and killed his 15 year old neighbor for walking on his lawn. I bet he too would have passed the requirements this law sets forth.

badger 12 years, 3 months ago

Honestly, makes no nevermind to me. Most of the stupid gun owners I know already carried illegally, and if the smart ones are walking around with guns, it won't make much difference in the life of the average Kansan.

Y'know, now that I think about it, the strictures governing concealed carry may remove some of the stupid owners from the pool of people allowed to buy guns, because most of them are going to run right out and sign up for a permit, and do something dumb within a year, like take it into a bar or brandish it at someone who's not really threatening them, and get busted for a gun crime.

This could actually be pretty all right, come to think of it. Maybe I'll help some of the stupid gun owners fill out their permits.

yourworstnightmare 12 years, 3 months ago

The good news is that this concealed-carry law requires registration and testing to carry a concealed weapon. This is good precedent for requiring these reasonable measures more broadly in gun ownership.

LawrenceKSisgreat 12 years, 3 months ago

The real winner: The gun and gun accessory manufactorers. You will need matching holsters to go with your different suits and dresses. As ussual the big corprorations will be the ones making money off of this.

But, those who won this issue are right. There will be no blood-baths and OK Corral shootouts because of this.

But on the other hand, everyone for this legislature will dread the first innocent bystander injury or fatality caused by that incompetent permit holder. I am not saying that permit holders will be incompetent, but you know there is going to be more than one imbecile carrying a concealed weapon. And everyone knows that accidents happen.

Steve Mechels 12 years, 3 months ago

Hey Fatty, he wasn't even using a concealed weapon so what is your point?

drctrlr 12 years, 3 months ago

So, after I receive my permit, will I mearly be able to carry a gun on my person, or can I pull it to scare off menacing types I run into without into any bothersome "brandishing a firearm" charges? Am I able to carry now if it is plainly visible (that is, not concealed?) Any help?

grimpeur 12 years, 3 months ago

Wow, it must suck to live in constant fear. I hope this little law makes 'em feel better, coz it sure as hell won't make 'em any safer.

ImpactWinter 12 years, 3 months ago

and he's going to jail for murder, just like any other crazy coot would if he shot his neighbor. that comment wa

Dean Royal 12 years, 3 months ago

Carrying a concealed weapon comes with lots of responsibility. Before you even begin to display it in public, make sure you have it very concealed as you can lose your license if anyone catches the slightest hint that you're carrying and calls the police in fear that you might intend to use it for illegal purposes.

Also, if you show it in public, you automatically become responsible for things you can see, and things you cannot see.

It's a lot more than simply carrying a gun. If you pull it out to protect yourself and in the process an innocent bystander gets scared, runs out in front of a car to avoid the situation and gets killed as a result...well, you're responsible for that. And so much more...

Food for thought

badger 12 years, 3 months ago

omb said:

"Sour grapes, anyone?"

I hope that wasn't directed at me. I've said all along I have no real dog in this fight, just bothered by some of the gung-ho "OMG CONCEALED CARRY IS THE TOTAL ANSWER TO ALL LIFE'S CRIME PROBLEMS AND ANYONE WHO OPPOSES IT JUST WANTS ME TO BE MUGGED!!!!11!!" I see flying around on boards like this.

My position is still that there's a certain portion of the population that's just Blame Fool Stupid. When those people drink, they pick fights with bouncers. When they drive, they get road rage or cut people off. When they have bottle rockets, they hold them in their hands and light them. When they have kids, they plunk them in front of the TV ten hours a day and later complain that their kids are fat, lazy, violent, and illiterate. And when they own guns, they take them wherever they want regardless of law, don't practice at a range, draw them at inappropriate times, and are the people most likely to be fooling around with a handgun in one hand and a beer in the other.

I don't really like the notion of those people being able to carry a concealed weapon legally while walking around each day. However, I'm also looking at the fact that since the laws are stricter on how you behave with a gun and where you can take it, it'll perhaps weed some of the stupid out of the gun pool over the next few years. And who knows? Maybe some of the stupid came from being taught wrong, and the training will actually educate them.

Mostly, I just wish there was some sort of test for Blame Fool Stupid, and those people couldn't drive or own guns, and had to have some sort of competent supervision when drinking, raising children, or using fireworks.

badger 12 years, 3 months ago

OK, now this is lovely.

According to the board gnomes, I'm logged in as...




LawrenceKSisgreat 12 years, 3 months ago

Hey Bob

Your link did not copy completley but just out of curiosity for anyone that knows. (and I am not into reading legalese

I am right in understanding that people could carry non concealed hand guns prior to this bill?

And, drctrlr, I am sure that brandishing and menancing even with a permit was and still is illegal.

helix 12 years, 3 months ago

Wow, I'm really happy to know that if I get killed from running in front of a car after some psycho pulls out a gun that they will lose their license. That makes all the difference.

Also, I am glad to see the Legislature is taking care of the important business first rather than doing their jobs and funding their own cost study for education.

LawrenceKSisgreat 12 years, 3 months ago

Hey badger

That happened to me about 30 minutes ago with your name. THis happened after I clicked on one of your comments to copy and paste a section.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 12 years, 3 months ago

One likely effect that I've not seen mentioned is that those who don't meet the minimal requirements for a permit will likely figure that with so many more guns out there, that they'll need to be packing, too, and take their chances with getting caught.

And that group most certainly will include some pretty nasty thugs who will now never leave home without one, knowing that lots of Joe Citizens out there will present a danger to them that didn't exist before.

Lock and load, duck and cover, it's the wild west now.

badger 12 years, 3 months ago

I don't think it will become the Wild West. I think it really won't make that much difference for the average Joe day-to-day.

However, you know what statistic I'd love to see? I know that the incidences of CCW permits being revoked because of a dequalifying event are pretty low, but I'd be interested to see if they went down based on how long after passage the person got the permit.

In other words, are the people who are now jumping all over themselves wanting to know where to sign up more or less likely to screw up and get the licenses pulled than the people who wait a few months, either to increase proficiency with the weapon until they are sure they're ready to carry it regularly, or for some other reason?

LawrenceKSisgreat 12 years, 3 months ago

I think the biggest draw back to this legislation will be IF more HAND guns are owned by more kansans.

STATISTIC: While handguns account for only one-third of all firearms owned in the United States, they account for more than two-thirds of all firearm-related deaths each year. A gun kept in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in a homicide, suicide or unintentional shooting than to be used in self-defense. - Kellerman AL, Lee RK, Mercy JA, et al. "The Epidemiological Basis for the Prevention of Firearm Injuries." Annu. Rev. Public Health. 1991; 12:17-40

And this is bad for all kansans wallets;


Taxpayers pay more than 85% of the medical cost for treatment of firearm-related injuries. - Martin M, et al. "The Cost of Hospitalization for Firearm Injuries." JAMA. Vol 260, November 25, 1998, pp 3048, and Ordog et al. "Hospital Costs of Firearm Injuries." Abstract. Journal of Trauma. February 1995, p1)

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 12 years, 3 months ago

I don't really expect the wild west, either, but with an increase of both legally and illegally concealed weapons on the streets, I don't see any reason to feel any safer, either.

Jamesaust 12 years, 3 months ago

Sen. Journey: "Many criminals are rational human beings, and when they realize there is a good chance that they could get shot committing a violent crime, they'll probably decide to do something else."

No doubt, they'll become respectable, productive members of society. Or perhaps, they'll shoot first and ask questions later.

LawrenceKSisgreat 12 years, 3 months ago

Actually I did find some statistics on a .gov site earlier. It did say VIOLENT crime went down in states with concealed carry laws but that burglaries and non-violent crime, that would most likely not result in confrontations went up. If that is true its still good.


I have not been able to find any statistical data regarding crime deterrent because of concealed carry after 1997. most numbers are from between 1990 to 1997. Anyone have any links to any stats (pro or con) with respect to concealed carry??

LawrenceKSisgreat 12 years, 3 months ago

............most numbers are from between 1990 to 1997. Anyone have any links to any stats (pro or con) with respect to concealed carry??

I menat to say recent stats. After 2000?

Dani Davey 12 years, 3 months ago

I have a question.

If some guy is carrying a concealed gun and I mouth off, and he pulls his gun on me, is it still assault?

Cause I think it is, and I'm confused why everyone thinks a law that allows you to hide your gun in your coat is so great.

8string2 12 years, 3 months ago

I find it a bit ironic that concealed weapons are still going to be banned in some places, including schools, churches, libraries, the legislature and courthouses. Looks like the law makers know something they don't want to tell us about the dangers of all the proposed pistol packin'. Though I guess I can see the desire to shoot being greater in those specific locations.

Dani Davey 12 years, 3 months ago

You know what else is ironic, that Representative Ruff sponsored this bill because it'll give Kansans a choice.

Apparently she's pro-choice when it comes to deadly weapons but not health or privacy issues. Some democrat.

Sigmund 12 years, 3 months ago

Id doubt very seriously that hand gun sales will go up. Many people will simply get a permit for a weapon they already own.

yourworstnightmare 12 years, 3 months ago

Why is concealed-carry so important? It seems to me that the biggest deterrent to a criminal with a gun is seeing that those around him are carrying weapons. If the weapon is concealed, the crime deterrent is removed.

Once the crime has started, however, having a concealed weapon would give one an advantage to shoot the criminal.

Concealed-carry will not be as effective a deterrent as open carry, but it will allow those with concealed weapons a greater probability of becoming involved in a shoot-out or crime situation after the crime has begun.

bankboy119 12 years, 3 months ago

The deterrent is not removed. If a potential criminal knows that some one could have a gun then that would deter them.

If it were open carry then the criminal could grab the weapon at the beginning of the assault. Now you're defenseless.

feeble 12 years, 3 months ago

A couple of interesting things from the bill ( :

  1. Undersection 4, the following are disqualified from getting a conceal carry license:

a. anyone convict of, or placed on diversion for, a felony.

b. anyone who in the last five years was convicted of, or placed on diversion for, a misdemeanor.

c. anyone who in the last five years was convicted of, or placed on diversion for, violation of any municipal ordinance concerning domestic violence.

d. anyone who is in contempt of court in a child support proceeding

e. anyone dishonorably discharged from military service.

The applicant has to sign a waiver of confideniality in regards to medical and mental health records. You get to pay a $150, non-refundable processing fee. You get a full background check (national and statewide)

You can't carry the weapon into any of the following: A courthouse, jail, police station, any place where polling stations are set up, any city, state, county or national gov't meeting or (sub) commitee meeting, any fairgrounds, any state building, any atheletic event not involving firearms, any bar or "drinking establishment", any school (k - university/college/community college), any public library operated by the state, any daycare or group day care home, any church or temple.

Any employer, property owner or business owner can restrict or prhohibit anyone with a license from carrying a concealed weapon in (or on the grounds of) their business or property, provided that the employer, property owner or business owner has posted this restriction in "a manner resonably likely to come to the attention of persons entering the premise or property." Violating this terminates the license and is a class B misdemeanor.

optimist 12 years, 3 months ago


Your logic is twisted. Open carry tells the criminal who is carrying. With concealed carry the criminal has to consider that any potential victim may be willing and able to defend themselves. That is the deterrent value even for those of you who choose not to carry.

bangaranggerg 12 years, 3 months ago

forget about concealed carry, when are they going to pass the bill that lets me wave a gun around while I'm driving...."NO, I HAD THE RIGHT AWAY!"

robinrander 12 years, 3 months ago

What a great method of creating laws. "Hey, this law didn't destroy Colorado, Oklahoma, and Missouri--it must be good!"

I'm against weapons, concealed or otherwise. Having a gun in your purse isn't going to prevent you from being a victim of crime. But I'm a little glad the legislature de-vetoed this bill. Because the crazier they get, and the more they kowtow to the extreme right-wing nutjobs in this state, the more likely it is that the intelligent Kansans out there will spring into action.

So, all the crazy creationist gun-toting anti-choice anti-gay bigots out there should enjoy it while it lasts. Like it or not, progress has a funny way of progressing.

Lulu 12 years, 3 months ago

This is an utterly outrageous attempt by the neocon Christian Taliban to embarrass our sweet governor. Handguns are made for killing and imagine all the unknowing children who will now have easy access to handguns. I could cry. Why do bad things happen to good people? I fear for the safety of our young. If guns didn't kill people then how would people kill people?

RonBurgandy 12 years, 3 months ago

There aren't going to be shootouts going on, but I just don't see the logic that having more guns out on the street is a good idea. A guy with a gun who is going to rob someone is going to rob someone whether or not they are worried if said robbee has a gun.

Does it make people feel more powerful? Is it a self-esteem thing? Safety? I love the whole, now I will be protected when I get robbed argument. How many times have you been mugged? If you have, what would have been the best opportunity to whip out you pistol? If a mugger has a gun pointed straight at you, what is the most likely scenario to happen as he is watching you trying to do some Chuck Norris move to get out the gun, he pulls the trigger or he runs away? Most criminals aren't the most intelligent people in the world. They are still going to commit the crimes.

RonBurgandy 12 years, 3 months ago

Lulu - it has nothing to do with a Christian Taliban, I am not even sure what that is.

wonderhorse 12 years, 3 months ago

"...extreme right-wing nutjobs in this state...."

Since until today we were one of four states in the nation that did not have a concealed carry law, then I guess all of the rest of the nation must be full of extreme right-wing nutjobs, too. Right?

robinrander 12 years, 3 months ago

Full? Maybe not. But they do tend to run the country at most levels of government.

And concealed-carry in Kansas? Just the tip of the ice berg.

wonderhorse 12 years, 3 months ago

"And concealed-carry in Kansas? Just the tip of the ice berg." Really? What does the rest of the ice berg look like?

wonderhorse 12 years, 3 months ago

"...and imagine all the unknowing children who will now have easy access to handguns."

How are they going to get them? Mug the people that are now legally carrying them? A previous poster said that s/he didn't believe gun sales would go up, but the people that already owned would get licensed. I think that's probably right. Someone else (badger?) said that violations of the CC law would probably thin out the idiots that can't pack responsibly. I think that's right, too. yourworstnightmare thinks this could be the first step on the road to control and registration. That may also be right. I guess you've already decided which slippery slope you want to be on.

samsnewplace 12 years, 3 months ago

I realize KS was one of the last four remaining states where this was illegal, but I don't think this was the best idea for the State of Kansas. I agree with the Governor on this one.

wonderhorse 12 years, 3 months ago

"Probably a lot like other extreme right-wing nutjobs: White, oversized, frigid and largely oblivious to what's going on above the surface."


I must be a little slow today, but explain to me how this is an answer to my question. robinrander said "And concealed-carry in Kansas? Just the tip of the ice berg." I wanted to know what the ice berg looked like that concealed-carry tipped.

wonderhorse 12 years, 3 months ago

I'm worried about a theocracy as well--I just don't see what CCW has to do with it.

And in case you're interested, I own two. A dusty old 20-gauge that was last used to hunt dove in the bottomlands where Clinton Lake is now, and a .45 that was presented to me by the KS National Guard Association for finishing 1st in my OCS class. It hangs on a wall on its plaque, and has never been taken down. It is probably dusty, too.

windrun 12 years, 3 months ago

Gun veto overridden??? That is so crazy! That mean, somebody might forgot to carry the gun into the stores or in front of the crowd people in the park or football game at the stadium, someone can shot somebody.

I am very sure that one of the day, the police will have a big headaches problem with some kids carry the gun into the public schools or play with the gun and hurt somebody.


dizzy_from_your_spin 12 years, 3 months ago

Kansas Legislature & Law Abiding Citizens--1 Gov. Kathy Sebelius & Feloneous Criminals--0

yourworstnightmare 12 years, 3 months ago

While I am not crazy about gun prevelance, I have long thought the those on the left of the political spectrum should take advantage of gun rights and arm themselves.

We might be hearing a different story if Mirecki had been armed, a story about two right-wing thugs whose kneecaps were blown off by the heroic, gun-toting professor.

We might hear different stories about racially-motivated crimes, about how racists were getting their comeuppance. We might hear stories about rapists with missing genitalia.

While I do not generally support widespread gun totage, it is frightening that the political right takes advantage of these freedoms.

I guess what I am saying is that leftists should arm themselves.

"Know your rights. The future is unwritten" -The Clash

yourworstnightmare 12 years, 3 months ago

I sometimes get the suspicion that concealed-carry proponents don't want to deter the crime but rather they want it to happen so that they can get into some shooting action.

I mean, what fun is detering a crime compared to popping off a few rounds at a bad guy?

roadrunner 12 years, 3 months ago

Can't wait to hear the uproar when a cop shoots a person who's "protecting" himself by carrying a concealed weapon. Because we all know it will all be blamed on the officer with a "happy" trigger finger and not responsibilty of the person carrying. I'm not sure how many officers are happy about this bill? Maybe more than one would think. I think it puts more guns into a higher number of police situations where a gun shouldn't be. Thoughts anyone?

robinrander 12 years, 3 months ago

"I must be a little slow today, but explain to me how this is an answer to my question. robinrander said "And concealed-carry in Kansas? Just the tip of the ice berg." I wanted to know what the ice berg looked like that concealed-carry tipped."

I meant it's just another example of the Kansas legislature passing laws and wasting time on issues that a majority of people (should they actually employ their common sense) would not support or do not think are pressing. I doubt this is the issue that will do it, but eventually something is going to make the moderate majority in this state take a step back in the right (left?) direction.

I don't believe all concealed-carry supporters are "crazy creationist gun-toting anti-choice anti-gay bigots" (at least not openly anyways) but those are the people who are running this state's legislature and majority party. For those of you who support this law and don't fall into that group of people, be careful, because they're going to ruin it for you.

Carry your guns, if it makes you feel better about yourselves. It's not likely to make a difference (until a group of kids come up to you and ask you for $5, but that's neither here nor there). I support the Second Amendment. I don't support this law. But my comments above were really directed at my view of the bigger picture. Which, sadly, is a view not many Kansans like to look at.

Susan Mangan 12 years, 3 months ago

It's about darn time!!!

Yes, for those of you wondering, it is, and has always been, completely legal to carry an "un-concealed" gun. That's what the 2nd Amendment covers...the right to "keep and bear arms". Now for all the nutcases out there screaming that this means everyone will be waving guns at everyone now...threatening anyone with a gun is not, nor has ever been, legal, unless it was during an act of self-defense. It's a lot like carrying a baseball bat versus threatening to beat someone up with it...common sense, people @@.

I will be in line to get my permit. The gun and accesory manufacturers won't profit from me because I already own everything I need and want. I don't know when, or even whether, I will carry a concealed weapon, but I am glad to know I finally have the right to. I have family members who are police and they agree that the police can't be everywhere at all times and people need to take responsibility for their own protection. Despite what the political branches of police forces think, every street cop I know agrees with concealed carry. I don't know when I would feel the need to carry a gun now, but I know when I was working late at night, in downtown KCMO, I would have felt a heck of a lot safer walking to my car at night knowing I could defend myself.

It's about time.

Fatty_McButterpants 12 years, 3 months ago

VoiceofReason: You have now met one cop who is not happy with the new CCW law.

Liberty 12 years, 3 months ago

One thing for sure, they are going to have to 'tame' down the police so they don't freak out if someone is carrying a gun.

This should be good for the gdp. (generally dumb public) The public will learn that the sight of a gun on a man or woman does not indicate that they are a terrorist. They are just normal people.

But personally, I do not want to ask permission from a government if I can arm myself. I think I can figure that out for myself. You can still carry concealled on your own property or business or abode without a permit.

braden_quinn 12 years, 3 months ago

A culture of FEAR breeds stupid ideas.

Wooohooo!... I'm going to kill me some Al-kIda!

I <3 sarcasm...

I have nothing against guns. In fact I'm sure I have some somewhere back at my dads house in the country.. but Concealed carry?

Mari Aubuchon 12 years, 3 months ago

So, will there now be a gun check at clubs?

Lieguy 12 years, 3 months ago

Fatty_McButterpants I don't think you know anything about what real cops think about CCW. I got 27 years in harness and Law abiding citizens don't scare me a bit. Non-law-abiding citizens get dealt with accordingly. I don't care where you work by the time a crime starts, and someone reports it, and the dispatcher writes down all the information, and then calls Fatty Mcbutterpants on his POLEECE Radio and he figures out where he's going and then gets there, somewhere between 4 and 10 minutes have passed even on a hot call. What is a law abiding citizen supposed to do in the meantime, say "Stab Slower" the police will be here soon? yeah right geez

Lowell Holmes 12 years, 3 months ago

Journey said. "Many criminals are rational human beings" I just thought this line was funny.

rayikeo 12 years, 3 months ago

For those of you protesting the veto overide, do you know why the Gov. vetoed this bill? Because she thought the average Kansan was not (SMART) enough to be able to handle a concealed weapon. Now if you agree with that statement then you are probably one of those she was referring to.

Bradford Hoopes 12 years, 3 months ago

Thank you, Kathleen! Your veto was appreciated! Way to stick your neck out there.

xenophonschild 12 years, 3 months ago

It's a sad day for Kansas. A win for the barbarians. What kind of civilization do we have when common citizens needlessly carry firearms? For shame.

lunacydetector 12 years, 3 months ago

guns scare the cr*p out of me, but i can see how criminals are deterred. plus, if the democrats try to take over the government as a dictatorship (i can see this as more plausible since their party is starting to die as compared to the republican party which is thriving), the citizens will be able to protect their property.

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