Archive for Tuesday, June 27, 2006

War motives

June 27, 2006


To the editor:

Seven war protesters were arrested Thursday at the Armed Forces Recruiting Center. The immediate issue they were addressing was the massacre of Iraqi civilians at Haditha. These killings still are under investigation, and the individuals involved must be held responsible for their actions. However, we must realize that the responsibility does not rest with them and their leaders alone. We put these young men in the dangerous, chaotic situation that leads to such tragedies. I say "we" - the majority of us who agreed with, who condoned, who passively accepted this war. If we all had had the courage and moral dedication of the Lawrence protesters, maybe we would have prevented this awful war.

While the war in Iraq seems especially pointless and tragic, it is not unique. All war involves indiscriminate killing of innocent people whether by bayonet or long-range missile. All war, at some point, is about revenge and retribution. When we sign on for war, we agree to the deaths of good, proud, patriotic troops (of both sides) as well as the killing of babies, children, the elderly and other totally innocent civilians. War, as Churchill observed, is hell. We should not voluntarily, willingly, eagerly create a hell ourselves, and we must stop sending our children and others there whatever our motives.

Joe Douglas,



drewdun 11 years, 11 months ago

Here's some right-wing porn for ya

(yeah, that's our Fearless Leader (TM), Male Cheerleader Extraordinaire! (order your action figures today!)

Also, from USA Today

"WASHINGTON - A majority of Americans say Congress should pass a resolution that outlines a plan for withdrawing U.S. troops from Iraq, according to a USA TODAY/Gallup Poll taken Friday through Sunday. Half of those surveyed would like all U.S. forces out within 12 months. The poll finds support for the ideas behind Democratic proposals that were soundly defeated in the Senate last week. An uptick in optimism toward the war after the killing of terrorist leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi earlier this month seems to have evaporated."

Ooooooops, I guess that's just the liberal, anti-troop, anti-press, leftist, treasonous, pro-terrorist press misunderinterpretating the SOLID WILL and STEEL RESOLVE of our fellow American SUPER-PATRIOTS like rightthinker, Arminius, conman, and the DEAR DEAR LEADER HIMSELF, that glorious specimen of a male cheerleader (who just slightly resembles a chimpanzee) GEORGE W BUSH!!!!!!! YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY AMERIKA!!! YAAAAAAYYYYY REPUBLIKAN PARTY!!!! YAAAAAAAAYYYY FASCISM!!!!!!

drewdun 11 years, 11 months ago

Sorry, here's some more Republican lasciviousness for yaz

Truly disturbing how this man became the symbol of national defense while a man who actually fought in a war was branded a coward. The times we live in, I guess.....

Kelly Powell 11 years, 11 months ago

Back to the topic.....I'll say it again, good for them for using their constitutional privileges.....But the amateur theatrics are boring me to tears.....The same groups for years (plus or minus the new creepy crawlies they hustle up) instead of a steady, organized and adult protest choose instead to don the clown shoes and set up a situation where they can later act martyred by the man keeping them down......Hell I probably have some same core beliefs as a lot of these people, buttheir over the top behaivor sits ill at ease with me.

blessed3x 11 years, 11 months ago

For people that scream about civil liberties, the left is certainly jumping on the guilty bandwagon. These soldiers have not been found guilty and, in fact, there is mounting evidence that this entire event was not what it seems. I swear I can see the smiles on itchy and drewdun's faces. They revel in a soldier's misfortune.

Can we just wait until the investigation is done and not convict these soldier's in the court of idiotic opinion?

rtwngr 11 years, 11 months ago

i_tching and Dredun,

Don't you feel the least bit ashamed every time something goes bad in Iraq you two jump for joy? You're very actions remove you from any moral high ground. You don't know the facts on any of this. All you know is what you have been told by the media that has been less than reliable with the truth.

Additionally, you political science majors, where does "Fascisim" exist in this country? This is not a fascist government ruling a fascist society. It is federalism. Nobody keeps you from voting. Nobody is preventing you from expressing yourself. In a fascist state the protesters would probably just been shot. That would have not been the right thing to do either.

temperance 11 years, 11 months ago

What a spot-on letter! I can certainly see why it infuriates the ever-shrinking number of citizens who think the war was a good idea. For those how instantly regard the Marines accused of murder in Haditha as heroes, don't you think the USMC & military police tend to take the word of their own soldiers over the word of Iraqi citizens? So, for them to bring charges against these folks suggests that they have compelling evidence to do so. Right? Do the Marines hate the military? Have the Marines become overly-PC? Or do they have evidence of first-degree murder and a cover-up? Can you see how NOT prosecuting these soldiers could reinforce the impression that we're an occupying & colonizing force, leading to more attacks on our soldiers? One of the reasons this conflict is lasting longer than WWII is because we're not just suppose to kill people and blow stuff up. The Pentagon has saddled the USMC with nation-building responsibilities that require winning over the hearts and minds of the Iraqi citizens. I, too, would snap & freak out if I was babysitting a civil war in 120 degree heat, watching my friends get killed and maimed, with no end in sight, and with no realistic goal to work towards. But if we want to show (to Iraq, the Middle East, & the world) that America's system of law and government is best, then we HAVE TO pursue charges against the accused based on the facts and details uncovered in the USMC's own investigation. Anything less is un-American to the core. Saddam made a habit of murdering innocent civilians; we're supposed to be better than that.

blessed3x 11 years, 11 months ago

temperance, there is a BIG difference between going ahead with a trial and an investigation, trying to find the truth and what aholes like itchy, dredun, joe and Cong. Murtha are doing by declaring these soldier's guilt without ever having seen any evidence. All I'm saying is stop freakin' calling them murderers and wait until all the facts are in. This is normally something you lefties are screaming about. Don't these soldier's deserve the same rights as you or I?

temperance 11 years, 11 months ago

Hippy Chick: I would add to your list [15] the abuse of Presidential signing statements (which Alberto G. will try to defend today before Congress), [16] threats against journalists for doing their jobs, and [17] the unprecedented expansion of domestic surveillance.

We part ways on point #7. I think we should have national security obsession going on within the White House, I just think that the current administration is obsessed about the wrong national security issues (squandering resources in Iraq while Osama walks free). Clinton clearly had a healthy obsession with national security. He met with his counterterrorism advisor on a daily basis. I'm sure if a memo came across his desk that said (for example) "Osama Bin Laden Determined to Attack the U.S." he would've taken it seriously instead of going off to read with the school children. Remember, the biggest attack on American soil occurred while the Bush administration was in power. Why trust this crowd with national security when they clearly have other prioritie$?

xenophonschild 11 years, 11 months ago


You walk on perilous ground. The rightwing yahoos who infest this site will fill it with post after post of denunciations of the Clinton administration, blaming him for OBL and 9/11 instead of Dick Cheney.

They will savage you for attacking their precious Boy-King, and insult your intelligence, lineage, birthplace, character, and morals for it. They will bloviate endlessly on the sins of liberal Democrats, and the subsequent threats posed by crackheads and welfare mothers, who they see as liberal Democrats' primary constituency.

They will ignore, or gloss over, any failings of conservative Republicans or Christian fundamentalists, for, to assail them for their cupidity and stupidity would be treasonous in a time of war.

Just thought to warn you.

craigers 11 years, 11 months ago

I applaud those who stand up for what they believe in but these protestors were obnoxious and idiotic with their actions. They got what they deserved and probably won nobody to their side with their antics.

temperance 11 years, 11 months ago

Blessed -- We're in full agreement that they are 100% innocent until proven guilty and I have no tolerance for leftists who automatically affix soldiers with the "baby killer" label. And please note that my original post said that the charges should be pursued nothing about guilt or innocence.

But the people declaring them guilty before their trial are as blind as the people saying we should "Free the Pendleton 8" or that "Killing the Enemy is Not Murder" (two signs I spotted in my brief perusal of So. Cal. on-line news articles about the matter). In my eyes, the knee-jerk soldier-haters are on equally shaky ground with those who declare them innocent before their trials.

Here's what disturbs me about the knee-jerk Haditha apologists: We're there to engage in democratic-nation building (spreading democracy to the Middle East) and yet we can't distinguish "the enemy" from the "good Iraqis" who we're there to protect. But to the "Free the Pendleton 8" crowd, they're ALL enemies. In this crowds' collective mind, it boils down to "his skin is brown, he wears funny clothes, he doesn't speak English, and so OF COURSE I'm not going to believe him." That's the unspoken ugliness that some of us lefties are screaming about.

temperance 11 years, 11 months ago

Hippy Chick I'm totally onboard with your critique of how the administration has manipulated national security concerns to further their domestic interests I just think it's time for Democrats to reclaim the security issue, especially since the public now agrees that our presence in Iraq is making us weaker & we should mostly leave within the year.

I think Bush supporters should ask themselves "do I feel safer here and abroad compared to when Clinton was in office?" Did the Saudi Arabian terrorists wake up in 2000 and suddenly decide to hate us? Did they say "It was too EASY to attack the U.S. when Clinton was running the show. Attacking the U.S. while Bush is in office will be much more gratifying because they're trying SO HARD to foil our plans."

I remember reading the newspaper in the 1990s and only occasionally coming across a report of a suicide bombing. Good times . . .

temperance 11 years, 11 months ago

There's abundant evidence for points #2, #8, #11, and (especially) #13, which is probably why rightthinker concedes them by silence. Our current Katrina Administration makes a strong case for NAHC's "socialism" the hyper-privatization of the last 6+ years isn't working out so well, is it? (see Katrina, FEMA, Iraq reconstruction, health care . . .)

bisky1 11 years, 11 months ago

hippiechick- when was the last time your feet were within eyesite of the ground?

temperance 11 years, 11 months ago


Your examples don't support your argument:

Khobar Towers bombing = 19 dead U.S. soldiers

USS Cole = 17 dead U.S. soldiers

1998 Embassy Bombing = 220 multinationals dead

None of these attacks on occurred on U.S. soil.

9/11 = 3,000+ dead

Not only was "suicide bomber" not a household term in the 1990s, there were also fewer beheadings of Americans. Yes, I know Bush said "Nobody likes beheadings," but that hasn't stopped the carnage.

Clinton was way better on national security. Deal with it.

Christine Pennewell Davis 11 years, 11 months ago

well suicide bomber may not have been known in your world but they sure have been in other worlds for many of years before these last two presidents. so now who do we blame

anonimiss 11 years, 11 months ago

The more life goes on, the more I realize why the elitist founders insisted on a representative, not true, democracy. If my life were in the hands of the masses, I have no doubt that I or a loved one would be dead by now. As for the 2500+ Americans killed in Iraq, an unfortunate consequence of the need to protect ourselves. It has now been shown that there were weapons of mass destruction, that Iraq was seeking relations with Al Qaeda, that Bush's "lies" are no more. The only prevailing lie left is that if we leave Iraq, all will be well. Fascists want to kill Americans regardless of what we do. It was evident before we occupied any nation with the 9/11 attacks. Better that they attack soldiers who have weapons and a fighting chance in Iraq than more unarmed civilians in America.

temperance 11 years, 11 months ago

Need I point out that 9 of the 13 9/11 terrorist were Saudis? Osama walks free and mocks us every chance he gets? Or that the civil war we're babysitting in Iraq is emboldening Iran and North Korea?

If it makes you feel better to believe that 2,500 Americans deaths were worth it, then fine. If it resolves your cognitive dissonance to believe that secular Saddam colluded with fundamentalist Al Qaeda, that Saddam had WMD, or any other far-right urban legend, then so be it. But history has a funny way of making people look like fools.

For instance, while you're jumping on Clinton, you might want to review the lovey dovey relationship between Bush #1 & Saddam: Los Angeles Times, "Bush Secret Effort Helped Iraq Build Its War Machine." Feb 23 1992, pg. 1. "In the fall of 1989, at a time when Iraq's invasion of Kuwait was only nine months away and Saddam Hussein was desperate for money to buy arms, President Bush signed a top-secret National Security Decision directive ordering closer ties with Baghdad and opening the way for $1 billion in new aid, according to classified documents and interviews."

Ouch, history hurts.

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