Lawrence and Douglas County

Lawrence and Douglas county

Smarter than your average stoplight

High-tech signals would ease traffic, officials say

January 30, 2006


Please take no offense, Lawrence traffic lights, but you're dumb.

At least compared to your high-tech counterparts in larger cities, you're not, shall we say, the brightest bulbs in the bunch.

Those smart lights - or technically "intelligent transportation systems" - can actually sense when traffic volumes are increasing and can adjust the timing of their lights accordingly.

In Lawrence, that's not the case. Lawrence traffic lights, for example, don't have the sense to know when it is a Kansas University game day and allow traffic on major streets to have longer green lights. They also can't send a message to a city maintenance crew when they need repair.

The result, some city commissioners say, is that traffic isn't moving in Lawrence as smoothly as it could. Drivers sometimes can only go a block or two at a time before being required to stop again. Or sometimes motorists sit at a red light when there's no traffic coming.

"I would like for us to build a better traffic flow mousetrap," City Commissioner David Schauner said.

Traffic flows past the corner of 23rd Street and Ousdahl Road.

Traffic flows past the corner of 23rd Street and Ousdahl Road.

Members of the city's Public Works staff said they're also interested, as long as people realize that the new generation traffic lights may be smart but they're certainly not cheap.

Chuck Soules, director of the city's Public Works Department, said staff members several years ago researched smart lights and found that equipping a portion of a major street - like Sixth, Iowa or 23rd streets - would cost around $300,000. To do an entire stretch of road would have been closer to $1 million.

"But they do have the potential to provide better progression along our major corridors," Soules said.

Computer driven

The key to the high-tech traffic lights is that they're all linked either through fiber cables or wireless technology, said David Woosley, the city's traffic engineer. That allows the signals to "talk" to each other and share information about the volume of vehicles going through each intersection. Based on the data, the lights can automatically change their timing cycles to move traffic as efficiently as possible.

The lights also are all connected to a central computer that allows traffic engineers to monitor their performance. The system would allow traffic engineers to sit in an office and view traffic at an intersection via video cameras. The system also would send out an alert each time a bulb burns out or one of the signal's sensors malfunctions. Currently, traffic engineers must do regular field checks or rely on drivers reporting the problems.

The smart signals also could be tied into a larger system that would automatically give a green light to emergency vehicles as they approach an intersection. They also could be programmed to interact with public transit schedules, creating less red light stops for the fuel-guzzling buses.

But while Lawrence's current traffic lights aren't that smart, they aren't exactly imbeciles either. Except for the downtown signals, all of the approximately 80 signalized intersections are equipped with detection devices. Primarily, small cameras are used to count the number of vehicles that go through an intersection. That allows for the lights on the major thoroughfares to stay green unless a car is detected waiting on a side street.

The city's signals also try to take into account rush hour traffic times. But unlike the smart signals, which adjust to real-time conditions, the Lawrence system simply changes its cycle based on certain times of the day.

The city has attempted to coordinate traffic lights on several main roads, including Clinton Parkway, Iowa and Sixth streets. But Woosley said the lights each operate off their own internal clock instead of a centralized clock as is the case with smart lights.

Woosley said accuracy of the internal clocks frequently was affected by power surges or power shortages. If one clock gets out of sync, the coordination of the entire stretch of road is affected.

"There would certainly be some advantages to the newer system," Woosley said. "But it costs a lot of money to do it all."

Measuring benefits

The newer systems are starting to become more prevalent in the Kansas City metro area. The Kansas Department of Transportation and the Missouri Department of Transportation have been working together to create smart corridors on both sides of the state line.

Michael Floberg, the intelligent traffic system engineer for KDOT, said the project had had some early successes. He said along Barry Road in Kansas City, Mo., engineers estimated the smarter traffic lights had saved about 350 gallons of fuel per day by cutting the number of starts and stops that the thousands of motorists who use the road were required to make. Floberg also estimated the thousands of motorists saved a total of 330 hours of travel time each day.

That only works out to a few minutes per driver, but City Commissioner Mike Rundle said he suspected Lawrence drivers would appreciate any help they could get.

"We keep on developing in this town, but we haven't really created any new ways to facilitate cross-town traffic flow," Rundle said.

Several random drivers in Lawrence this week said the idea sounded intriguing but also costly.

"I think most streets are pretty good actually, but on the larger streets, like 23rd Street, especially 23rd Street, they could be useful," said Jeannie Houts, who lives near the busy street. "That street is just always crazy. It could use all the help it can get."

Soules said the smart signals could help improve traffic flows on 23rd Street, but said a project to eliminate a number of driveways along the road and plans to add additional turning lanes at key intersections likely would need to continue.

"These signals wouldn't be a cure-all," Soules said.

And some motorists said driving in Lawrence really wasn't that bad.

"They (traffic lights) work pretty well in the parts of town I drive in," said Jackie Dilley, who lives in western Lawrence and works at the hospital. "So I probably wouldn't want the new ones because my taxes would have to go up to pay for them."

But Rundle said residents should try to keep the costs in perspective. He said if the devices kept good roads functioning well for a longer period of time, the signals eventually would pay for themselves.

"I can tell you that they would be less expensive than widening Sixth Street or 23rd Street to six lanes to move all the traffic," Rundle said.

City staff members said they would continue to pursue grants through the state to pay for a pilot project, but also would bring a plan forward this summer for commissioners to consider during budget discussions.


Ragingbear 12 years, 3 months ago

Those stupid sensors won't register bikes, certain motorcycles, or motorscooters. I was stuck at 23rd and Loisiana for 20 minutes, and eventually had to turn around in the middle of the street and find another way to cross 23rd. And all because there were no other cars out at that hour.

I don't mind the sensor system, in fact it can be nice at times. What I don't like is not being considered a vehicle by the things.

b_asinbeer 12 years, 3 months ago

I love the idea, but cost again plays a huge factor.

The lights at Harvard and Iowa used to adjust to cars about 2-3 months ago just fine. All of a sudden, for the past few months, I've been waiting at a red, waiting to cross or make a left onto Iowa without any oncoming traffic, and I have had to wait about 2/2.5 minutes for it to turn green. And by the time it turns green for the Harvard intersection, Iowa street traffic becomes congested with cars....just bad timing.

I don't know why they switched it, or if the timer/sensor has gone bad, but that's been the case in a lot of our streets in Lawrence (What about 31st and Iowa?). I hope they can fix these problems without delving too much into the citizens' pockets.

dex 12 years, 3 months ago

roundabouts OUT! smart lights IN!

still sound advice: hold onto your wallet.

lunacydetector 12 years, 3 months ago

i like the little traffic detection cameras especially during a foggy morning when i'm in a hurry. they dumb, real dumb because i am like invisible and the light never turns green.

topflight 12 years, 3 months ago

You know what would ease traffic?


neopolss 12 years, 3 months ago

Again, I'll call attention to the lack of dedicated left turn lanes, which causes congestion. A good example is on 9th street turning onto Kentucky or Tennessee. The lack of a left turn lane causes traffic to backup to Mass. street constantly. It doesn't even need a new lane. Simply add a green arrow light and change the signals to one way traffic. That intersection has been a problem for years.

As for the cameras, I don't want 'em. I don't like the idea of the cameras being used to take license plate photos (which is done in many states).

bankboy119 12 years, 3 months ago

As of's illegal to use the cameras for that in Kansas.

badger 12 years, 3 months ago

neopolss, you already have the cameras. I don't know if the ones at the intersections are taking pics of drivers who run red lights, but there are cameras at many Lawrence intersections.

This is just a matter of linking them together with central monitoring. Still kind of creepy, though.

Ragingbear, I understand your small craft frustration. A friend and I were stuck at a light in Arizona for a good five minutes with no other vehicles in sight because it didn't register two people on a motorcycle as a 'vehicle.' One of us eventually had to run over and push the crosswalk button, because we knew that even though it was 1am, and there were no cars coming or going, if we went through the intersection, the cameras would nab us and we'd get a ticket.

If it works, it sounds like a good idea. However, whenever you increase the complexity of a system, you increase the potential for something to go wrong.

wheremyshoes 12 years, 3 months ago

I was stopped in the KC area by the police for making a left turn on red because the light would not see my car in the middle of the night which is when I go to work. I had had the problem with the light repeatedly and I explained this to the police officer who wasted no time in giving me a $90 ticket. I fought the ticket in court and won because the officer testified that she had gone back through the light to check it and it hadn't worked for her either. Since then I have had multiple repeat experiences with that and other lights in the area not seeing my car. This always happens at night and in inclement weather and it's always a nuisance. As a native Lawrencian, I have to say that video signalized intersections are a violation of the public trust and should all be disassembled and melted for scrap. Let's improve public transportation instead.

craigers 12 years, 3 months ago

I think we ought to do a study that costs 100K to find out if smart traffic lights are right for Lawrence. :)

RonBurgandy 12 years, 3 months ago

Who thinks Lawrence traffic is not bad? When it takes 15 minutes to cross a 5 mile stretch of town, it's bad. Anything would help. Quit the whining about paying for it, if it saves money on gas as well as time, it's pretty much paying for itself.

Oh, and finish the SLT.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 12 years, 3 months ago

15 miles in 5 minutes is an average of 20mph. Not really that bad for in-city driving, and not likely to to increase dramatically no matter what is done, including the SLT.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 12 years, 3 months ago

Oops, I meant 5 miles in 15 minutes, which is still 20mph.

Dean Royal 12 years, 3 months ago

As with any new bit of technology, new accessories can fit into the scheme much easier than they can currently...

for example: Dallas Morning News (today) "Red-light runners may be feeling blue today.

Plano and Richardson are set to activate newly installed red-light cameras today, beginning a one-month warning period before $75 civil fines kick in March 1.

Cameras at four intersections in Plano and two in Richardson will start snapping the license plates of offending vehicles, and violations will be sent to the registered owners..."

Violation of rights? Or, saving more lives at dangerous intersections...?

Also, traffic in Lawrence isn't bad. Try living in Dallas, L.A., Washington, Houston, etc.

grimpeur 12 years, 3 months ago

Funny, nothing here to address the wasteful driving habits that cause congestion in the first place:

No carpool? No transit? No park/rides?

Nothing but the same old byzantine attitude of getting my CAR from point A to point B, instead of getting PEOPLE from A to B. Of course, then there's the storage of empty cars for 9 hours a day in the middle of town/on campus.

More parking garages? There's a new lot going in on west campus. You know, the west campus that Endowment (to their credit) is so cautious about developing slowly? That's great, but to waste it on a parking lot when so much demand for parking comes from unnecessary, habitual, lazy driving--from 18th and Ohio to campus, from 21st and NH to Lawrence High, from one end of Mass to the other--is dreadfully short-sighted and only encourages more people to drive right into the middle of town. Sorry, but if you're an able-bodied person driving this kind of distance (less than a mile), you're the problem, and no signal device, lot, garage, or street improvement will help. Yeah, parking in the garage downtown should be free for 2 hours, but KU should jack their permit prices 100%. Streets near campus and LHS should be residential permit only. Make the drivers bear the costs. Maybe then they'll get motivated to carpool, walk, or bike.

The time has come to stop accomodating this kind of waste. There is NOTHING that contributes more to the costs we all bear than the unnecessary, wasteful, single-occupancy driver.

RonBurgandy 12 years, 3 months ago

20 mph might be good for big city driving, not a town of less that 100,000 people.

Janet Lowther 12 years, 3 months ago

I don't know about 23rd St., but 6th St is abysmal. To get from old east Lawrence to Wakarusa Drive, it is faster to go clear up to the turnpike, out to the Lecompton exit and then come back to Wakarusa than it is to sit at stoplight after stoplight after stoplight on 6th.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 12 years, 3 months ago

I disagree. If you're going across Lawrence, it takes a while because there are lots of other people trying to do the same thing. It's no different in other cities of this size.

bankboy119 12 years, 3 months ago

I drive my Hummer on Iraqi oil.

(Okay well maybe I don't have a Hummer and wouldn't waste the money but it sounds good.)

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 12 years, 3 months ago

It pretty well sums up the real reason behind the war.

grimpeur 12 years, 3 months ago

Ya, Informed, there are also lots of carpenters, counselors, salespeople, and others who MUST use their cars, alone, every day, in town or from KC to Lawrence, Topeka and back. Or farther.

But I'm not talking about you or them, so no reason be defensive.

You and the rest of the motorists like you (who, for instance, CANNOT carpool) are in the minority. A very small minority.

I'll repeat, able-bodied persons driving less than a mile to to work or to school on campus, at LHS, on 23rd, downtown, or anywhere else for that matter, are most of the problem. Winter or summer, night or day, it's unnecessary and lazy. This attachment to the car is costing everyone a lot of money. Continuing to accomodate this behavior costs still more.

SteelHorseRider 12 years, 3 months ago

I agree with Topflight.


Then and only then should we consider spending $300,000+ to esae the traffic.

Heck, for $300,000 we can hire 10 really nice crossing guards that could smile and "wave" traffic through the busiest intersections.

mcoan 12 years, 3 months ago

I wrote an article 22 years ago for the Kansan about timing traffic lights...the city poo-poohed it. 22 years later, it still needs to be done. The fact is, one car on a side street like Ousdahl should not get to hold up 30 cars on 23rd.

Marion wrote: "Smart technology is already in use throughout the rest of the world to speed traffic flow..."

Yes, and so are roundabouts. If you've driven them in England, you know how much more efficient they are.

You obviously haven't researched roundabouts whatsoever to say "Roundabouts ... do little to significantly improve traffic flow, improve safety or save energy." Just Google it and you'll find links to tons of articles by experts which say they do a GREAT job of improving traffic flow, improving safety, and saving energy. Most state highway ENGINEERS (you know, the Professionals...those who research this stuff for a living, rather than to post on a web site), are planning massive expansion of roundabouts because of their benefits. How could you miss all the writings by the experts, including at our own Kansas State University? Roundabouts have been tested and re-tested, and, properly designed, they offer excellent benefits. Of course, that assumes that the DMV will educate drivers about how to drive them, which remains to be seen.

mcoan 12 years, 3 months ago

"Offtotheright" (is that a scary handle or what?), says roundabouts are a whim...again, he obvsiously hasn't researched it.

And he says "finish the bypass." How is the bypass going to help? Are you telling me that you'll be willing to drive through 10 lights on Iowa from 23rd to 32nd St. to catch the bypass in order to avoid 23rd? That's a (slow) mile out of your way. Personally, I NEVER use 23rd if eastbound...the "bypasses" are already there: 19th St., 21st, 31st, E. 15th, etc. Westbound, I go 27th to avoid 23rd from Louisiana through Iowa. Or I use 21st. People who drive 23rd are either ignorant of the side streets or they WANT to be on the commercial street in order to buy something.

What it might help is traffic coming from Ottawa to get on K-10, but how many people do that? Why wouldn't they just take I-35? Most Ottawa folks coming to Lawrence are coming to shop, or they're passing through going North to the turnpike so they can go west...and the bypass won't help either of those.

Dean wrote: "Also, traffic in Lawrence isn't bad. Try living in Dallas, L.A., Washington, Houston, etc." Yeah, or Bejing, or Berlin. Those are NOT Lawrence's peer does Lawrence compare to Manhattan, Columbia, Lincoln, etc? I don't know, but inquiring minds want to.

Informed wrote: ""I drive 34 miles each way to my office in Lenexa."

Huh? Why the heck do you live 34 mi. from work? Either get a new job or a new town. Your wastefulness is not OUR problem. You're a big part of what's wrong with our country. Well guess what: Oil is running out. $5 gas is just a few years away, and it will continue to get higher and higher. This whole commuting thing will die as a result. Personally, I think gas is too cheap when people can justify living 34 mi. from their jobs. I say raise it now so that there is pain...I am looking forward to the $5 gas so that people will be less selfish with this declining resource.

I do not want Lawrence to be a "bedroom community" of Topeka and KC, where folks live (like Olathe) and commute to work. THat's DUMB. It's 20th century thinking. We need jobs in Lawrence for people who live in Lawrence. If your job isn't in Lawrence, please don't live here. You're sapping the resources for the rest of us.

Jeez, can't we just stick to facts and logic and leave all the emotion out of it? Let the pros do their work. That's what we pay them for.

badger 12 years, 3 months ago

mcoan, I'm not sure you've obeyed your own instructions to leave emotion out of it.

People have every right to want to live in Lawrence. I'm not sure quite how people who pay property taxes exactly 'sap' resources for everyone else.

I don't favor spending a lot of money to facilitate commuting when other projects are in so much need, but I don't know that telling people, "If you don't work here, get out," is really the way to go.

What about, "If you don't work here, and you live here, have you thought about starting a small business doing what you do in Lawrence, or if thirty of the fifty employees at your company live in Lawrence, wouldn't it be interesting to consider a branch office right in town?"

You won't keep it from becoming a commuter town by convincing people not to live here. All the things you love about it will draw them. You'll keep it from becoming a commuter town by drawing real business, the kinds of jobs they're commuting for now, to Lawrence to grow.

deepthroat 12 years, 3 months ago

I had to throw my two cents in as well. IMO a way to improve the traffic in Lawrence is for drivers to actually do the posted speed limit. Everytime I drive on 6th, 23rd, or Iowa, everyone around me is doing at least 5 and sometimes 10 mph BELOW the posted speed limit. I just cannot understand why!?! When I come in off of K-10, I slow down to 45 mph. When I get to Harper, everyone is doing 40 while I zip along at 45 mph. Also, when sitting at a light, it seems as if it takes FOREVER for people to accelerate up to the speed limit. I'm originally from up north and Kansas is the first state I've ever experienced this phenomenon in before. Been here 7 years and I still cannot get used to it.

badger 12 years, 3 months ago

By the way, mcoan?

That "five dollar gas" you're so gleefully looking forward to?

Please remember that two dollar potatoes, and ten dollar a pound hamburger, and eight dollar a loaf bread, and fifty dollar shipping fees for ordering a funny t-shirt online go with it.

Europe can have high gas prices and not crash their economy because they have a viable rail transport system, and because their major cities (and minor ones, really) are close enough that you don't ever have to drive sixty miles to the nearest grocery store, and that grocery store doesn't have to get its stuff from a distribution center 300 miles away (been to west Texas?). The US is and will remain reliant upon road transport for commerce, so until a good alternative is readily in use, that five-dollar gas you're so enthused about represents people not being able to feed their kids. It represents the prices for a camping weekend at Big Bend tripling or quadrupling to keep the national park open and supplied with the things it needs to run. That translates very directly into that park no longer being something middle-class or average income people can even afford or consider as a vacation - and does the same for many national parks, deliberately placed out of immediate reach of civilization.

Instead of demanding short-sighted solutions like high gas prices to 'penalize' people you think drive too much, what are you doing to encourage the development of alternative fuels for road transport?

RonBurgandy 12 years, 3 months ago

So according to mcoan, then the only people who can live in lawrence are those who work in lawrence. The fact that people love the town and want to be a part of it is moot. Nevermind that a lot of the horrible commuters pay a lot of the taxes that help put up roundabouts and finance studies to see if there is a chance that something would work. Forget that a lot of people went to KU, fell in love with the town and couldn't get a job in town when they graduated and decided to look in other cities.

Good point deepthroat about the slow drivers. It is amazing that people can't go the speed limit that is posted as a safe driving limit.

compmd 12 years, 3 months ago

deepthroat: You're forgetting the other group of people that go 20mph OVER the speed limit on streets such as Clinton Pkwy. I drive it every day to work going 45-55 mph, and there is always someone who flies past me. I still agree with you about the slow drivers though. There seems to be a nice statistical distribution.

Now, you are misinterpreting two simple words: speed limit. This is not the speed everyone should go, it is the maximum speed you are legally permitted to go. It is perfectly legal to drive below the speed limit(limited in certain circumstances), in fact, in inclement weather, the law (and common sense) states that the posted speed limit may be too fast for conditions, in which case you can get a ticket for going the speed limit!

Also, you might want to rethink your concept of accelerating up to the speed limit from a stop light. Not only can hard acceleration be bad for your car, you waste fuel. Just because you can go fast doesn't mean you should.

I'm from up north, too.

Ragingbear 12 years, 3 months ago

Everybody should ride motor scooters and VW bugs. They are efficent, and effective. Although my scooter has a choke on the engine that sticks in cold weather (hence reducing the milage) I still get 40mpg in the winter, and around 95mpg in the summer.

grimpeur 12 years, 3 months ago


The minority is the number of single-occupancy drivers (including among the 20% who commute) who CANNOT carpool (whether commuting or crosstown), walk, bike, or bus, and so MUST drive alone, in a practical sense. Do you or someone you know drive right past a co-worker's home, or past a neighbor's workplace in their daily drives? I know six people off the top of my head who all drive alone less than one mile to work in Lawrence. This in turn increases pressure on parking (on KU and LHS campuses, in the surrounding neighborhoods, and downtown) to store these drivers' empty vehicles less than a mile from their homes, clogs our streets, and incurs maintenance prematurely.

Many, many drivers who could and should be walking, riding, or carpooling are choosing instead to drive. Alone. Obscenely short distances. Why? Because they're not being forced to pay the costs of this wasteful lifestyle choice, and because we continue to make it easy to do so. But it's costing a lot of money for everyone else, causing congestion, causing pollution, inflating demand for parking and other infrastructure, increasing wear, increasing frustration, and ruining our health. So it's time to stop accomodating this expensive habit.

It's harder than laying asphalt or putting up a new stoplight, but changing these behaviors (and providing alternatives starting NOW) will save more time and money than any new road or signals. Problem is, nobody wants to be the first to change his or her habits.

chzypoof1 12 years, 3 months ago

In response to Mcoan, you find me an IT job in lawrence that pays $24/hour, and I'll stay in town. Until then, ride your bike, and leave the hard working people that support your "environmentally sound" life alone.

And about the SLT, I'm sure the people that live on the West side so agree that it wouldn't help. But remember, we must protect the precious Kansas Wetland (that we put there!!!)

Godot 12 years, 3 months ago

"The system would allow traffic engineers to sit in an office and view traffic at an intersection via video cameras. "

Another traffic engineer position, high tech. Sounds expensive.

tolawdjk 12 years, 3 months ago

"Who thinks Lawrence traffic is not bad? When it takes 15 minutes to cross a 5 mile stretch of town, it's bad. Anything would help. Quit the whining about paying for it, if it saves money on gas as well as time, it's pretty much paying for itself.

Oh, and finish the SLT."

How fast is fast enough?

to go 5 miles at 30 MPH it would take 10 minutes.

same distance at 40 MPH...7.5 minutes.

HOw fast do you require to meet your immediate needs?

Personally, I think you will bitch no matter how fast it takes. 5 miles in 15 minutes is good for a bigger city? 5 miles in 15 minutes is amazing in some cities. The more you sprawl, the longer it will take you to get across town.

wheremyshoes 12 years, 3 months ago

Let us not forget the nuisance factor of being pulled over and ticketed because the video signalized intersection camera can't see your car or scooter and you are forced to make an "illegal" left turn on red. Abolish video signalized intersections! (What are those engineers getting paid for?)

compmd 12 years, 3 months ago

Everybody should ride motor scooters? If you are looking for efficiency, then maybe you haven't seen the monstrous amounts of crap those little 2-strokes put out. I have a pair of Cactus Aviation 3W75US engines (1-cylinder, 7.5hp, 4.4cid) and when I was testing them, copious amounts of unburnt 100LL and 2-stroke oil were on the test stand and myself. It was tested outside, behind a hangar, and the hangar door was left just open a few inches: inside there was a smoky haze around the lights from the engines. Yuck.

Marion, I totally agree with your most recent post. Yeah, I have a "fun car" that gets horrendous mileage, but I also have a car that will burn all kinds of stuff as fuel. I'm also proud to work with the aerospace engineers designing the Milner AirCar here in Lawrence. One_more_bob, do you know how long that Mercedes has been available EVERYWHERE ELSE BUT THE US? Years. And, it had a smaller engine (2.7L vs 3.2L) and performed just as well. A couple years ago an imported right-hand drive E270CDI was rolling around Lawrence. Even though you CAN buy them now, it is difficult. A little known fact is that originally, that diesel model was a hair faster than its gas counterpart. Most of the justification to not bring the car to the US was that it didn't comply with US emissions. Funny considering an Excursion puts out far more junk than that CDI.

Ragingbear 12 years, 3 months ago

First of all, it sounded as if your mixers were off. Sometimes when my system gets flooded, or really cold, it will burn some oil like that. But only for a minute while the engine warms up, just like any other car.But most of the time, I don't even get residue from the stuff on my muffler.

Not to mention that the oil that you mention is not actually an air pollutant. It's a soil/water pollutant. Settles too quickly to contribute to air pollution. In fact, according to the EPA, scooters are actually emission free. Meaning no toxic gasses. They produce C02, but any gas burning machine will do that.

You can't sit there and tell me that my scooter that gets 95mpg is worse for the environment than a car that gets 12mpg. That burnt fuel and the fumes from it gotta go somewhere.

RonBurgandy 12 years, 3 months ago

Posted by tolawdjk "HOw fast do you require to meet your immediate needs?

Personally, I think you will bitch no matter how fast it takes."

10 minutes or under would be suffiencient for me. But I am glad that you know what I will think at all times, less decision making for me then!

Ooh, a curse words? Tsk Tsk.

RonBurgandy 12 years, 3 months ago

a curse word

Sorry, there is not supposed to be an "s", unless I took out the "a", which I could do....

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