City looking at effects of new retail projects / LJWorld.com

Archive for Wednesday, January 18, 2006

January 18, 2006

Lawrence city leaders were considering this morning how a group of new retail centers will affect the city's existing shopping areas.

City commissioners were studying a report from Development Strategies Consultants that found almost a million square feet of retail space could soon be built in Lawrence with the Bauer Farms, Mercato and Northgate projects.

The report also surveyed 13 cities in Kansas and six nearby states.

It found that despite Lawrence's 6.5 million square feet of retail space, a large percentage of Lawrence residents travel outside the city to shop.

For more on this story, tune in to the 6News newscast at 6 p.m. and 10 p.m. on Sunflower Broadband's channel 6 and pick up a copy of Thursday's Journal-World.

Discussion

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18 January 2006
at 12:14 p.m.

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my2girls (Anonymous) says…

People shop in KC and Topeka because we don't have a mall. Even Manhattan has a mall!
18 January 2006
at 12:20 p.m.

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Hong_Kong_Phooey (Anonymous) says…

Lemme guess…the city commission is now going to appoint a group to study why people don't shop in Lawrence!
18 January 2006
at 12:28 p.m.

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ScorpioPsyc (Anonymous) says…

If everyone remembers- we already tried the whole retail outlet/mall thing- remember the RiverFront Mall? This empty shell now serves as several business offices. The reason the mall idea would never work is because the ultra trendy local merchants downtown would absolutely have a fit if all their business was taken, or even some of it for that matter. Ever wonder why big retail outlets (Kohl's, Target, etc.) are built so incredibly far away from the downtown area? I sincerely doubt if the planned retail space will ever make it beyond the planning phase- just watch.
18 January 2006
at 1:10 p.m.

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Spades (Anonymous) says…

If I'm looking to shop, I go to the Overland Park Mall, it's as simple as that. I enjoy the downtown shops, and purchase from them, especially in the specialty stores, but it can't beat a mall. Lawrence doesn't need an outlet mall, that is certain, but possibly an actual retail mall. Yes it will take away from downtown, but it's progress. Without a substantial retail environment, Lawrence remains in the past. Nothing against downtown, but it can't offer what a mall can. And I applaud the new 'downtown' that was approved last week. Living on the northwest side, it will be nice to get there quickly, instead of driving 20 minutes, trying to find parking, and dealing with the homeless around that side of town.
18 January 2006
at 1:16 p.m.

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Jillster (Anonymous) says…

ScorpioPsyc — I used to shop quite a lot at the Riverfront Mall. But the thing about the Riverfront Mall is that the stores were outlets of name-brand, high-end merchandise…things that I and a lot of people don't buy very often because they are expensive even at discounted “outlet” prices. If they had let it be a “real” mall (a regular retail mall, not just an outlet mall), I'm sure it would still be thriving!

Big retail outlets are so far from downtown because they usually want to build their own buildings according to their standardized architectural designs. The area on south Iowa Street is ideal because there was land available to develop to their own specifications. Smaller retail chains have moved into the downtown area — Talbot's, The Gap, Abercrombie and Fitch, etc. — because those smaller stores usually adapt to available storefront space rather than build customized stores.

I hope that the city commission continues to allow new retail space to be developed in Lawrence…it would be nice if I could find everything I want and need locally instead of driving to Kansas City or Topeka all the time!
18 January 2006
at 1:29 p.m.

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merrill (Anonymous) says…

Or it could be that the big box people realize that Lawrence is a small town surrounded on two sides with large metro shopping areas. Only 20-30 minutes away. Their current downsized stores at 31st and Iowa do not offer equal amounts of choices. Downsized stores were chosen simply because Lawrence does not have the retail dollars to support big stores. People visit Lawrence because of it's downtown, KU sports activities,now bike races and outdoor concerts. Not Wal-Mart,Kohls or Bed Bath and Beyond.

Why would anyone drive from KC metro or Topeka metro to shop at Wal-mart, Old Navy etc etc when their stores are much larger and offer more choices. We've driven to KC many times because our children did not have the same choices as did a larger JC Penney whether it be clothes or shoes. Oh yes we shopped downtown first in hopes of not making the KC trip. GAP and the other stores across from the Brewery are downsized.

Case in point: 3 stores in the K-Mart building. Those stores are rather large in the KC Metro area.

An economic impact study is a very smart tool unless we all want higher sales taxes,user fees and property taxes. When we have a whole bunch of retail space not generating a lot of sales tax per location local residents make up the loss.

Infrastructure maintenance costs begin and increase when new buildings go up whether it homes or retail space. High turnover in retail does not generate enough tax revenue.
18 January 2006
at 1:32 p.m.

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merrill (Anonymous) says…

Commuters many times spend retail dollars in the cities they work. Loss of local sales taxes.

18 January 2006
at 1:34 p.m.

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tolawdjk (Anonymous) says…

What exactly will a mall bring that isn't already in Lawrence?

Gap is here. Abercrombie, ditto. Suncoast? Going broke, but if you want to buy a movie there is Hastings. Books? Borders, Hastings, Raven, Dusty… Men's clothes? its on Mass. Womens? on Mass. Bigger retail? Kohl's, JC Penny, Best Buy…etc, etc.

Wait, its the food court, right? You want your Sabbarros fix? Or is it Orange Julious? A big pretzel? What is it?

The “shopping mall” is a dying beast. Internet sales are driving the extinction. Look across the country. No one is building “malls” on par with Oak Park or Topeka anymore. When they are being built the stores that are going in there are the very stores that sent their last season stuff to the very outlet malls that died in Lawrence.

I guarentee you that once this “study” is completed the recommendation will not be to “build a mall”. The major mall owners already have property in Topeka and Oak Park. To go out and build competition will only remove revenue from those already troubled locations.

Lawrence missed its “mall” window by about 15 years. It would be better served to do what it has…promote downtown, make it a destination for those things you -can't- get in a mall or online. Develop what it has and not what it never wanted. Court manufacturing development that will put money in the hands of their workers, more so than just enough to buy the essentials at Wal Mart. Look to adding to the idea that Lawrence is expertly located as a distribution center…interstate highways, central in the nation, strong workforce.

A mall? Only if they want to think they are updating back to the eighties.
18 January 2006
at 1:59 p.m.

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Godot (Anonymous) says…

Why do most of Lawrence residents shop out of town? They shop where they work.
And those of us who do work here shop out of town because there isn't enough selection here, and it is inconvenient to have to drive all over the place to find what you want.

The big name retailers won't invest here until the population is over 100,000.

When the Legends shopping area that is being developed in Wyandotte County is finished, it will be a great place to shop. Just hop on the turnpike and you are there in 20 minutes.
18 January 2006
at 2:02 p.m.

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Prydain (Anonymous) says…

If a mall is built there is a good possibility that retailers will move into it and abandon their old buildings. JCPenny's, Sears, Kohls, Gap, A&F, and others would move to the new mall.
18 January 2006
at 2:04 p.m.

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Godot (Anonymous) says…

Merrill wrote: “Commuters many times spend retail dollars in the cities they work. Loss of local sales taxes.”

Not necessarily. If we shop in somewhere else in Kansas, the retailer has to report that to the revenue dept., and Lawrence gets the sales tax on what we buy.
That's called “destination based sales tax.”
18 January 2006
at 2:07 p.m.

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merrill (Anonymous) says…

One more thing. Bo Harris has a very cool retail plan underway in the east Lawrence “warehouse district”. Before saying yes to that westside plan consideration for this existing and approved plan should have been given.

The Community Theatre perhaps should have contacted Bo Harris.

This will likely succeed due to it's proximity to downtown Lawrence.

Saying yes to everything put Lawrence in a high property
tax situation. Light industrial should have been the focus not housing.

Light industrial:
Court manufacturing development that will put money in the hands of their workers, more so than just enough to buy the essentials at Wal Mart. ( This is a very good good suggestion)

However if Lawrence wants to bring the high pay of high tech then the Lawrence Chamber of Commerce or City Hall needs to get with it.
18 January 2006
at 2:13 p.m.

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merrill (Anonymous) says…

Prydain wrote:
“If a mall is built there is a good possibility that retailers will move into it and abandon their old buildings. JCPenny's, Sears, Kohls, Gap, A&F, and others would move to the new mall.”

Large empty buildings is not something that Lawrence taxpayers can afford.
18 January 2006
at 2:20 p.m.

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badger (Anonymous) says…

When I lived and worked in Lawrence, I shopped there.

Usually I shopped at locally-owned businesses or the Farmer's Market, but occasionally I did have to hit Target for something. There were very few things I needed to buy that I couldn't find in Lawrence or online.

Out of curiosity, those of you who leave Lawrence to shop, where do you go and what do you buy there? I can't think of anything (aside from Penzeys Spices) that I couldn't buy online but needed to leave Lawrence specifically to find. Now, living in another city, I have eleventy-five malls to choose from and still shop at the stores in my neighborhood or downtown (which is really only about 15 blocks from my neighborhood anyway).

You go to 'the mall'. I agree with tolawdjk: Why? Is it perhaps that you're just trained to 'shop at the mall'? There are lots of stores in town that have the same stuff at similar prices — more so once you figure in 1-3 gallons of gas to get to KC, whatever your hourly time is worth for the hour or so of drivetime minimum (I put my own time worth between 20 and 40 dollars an hour for invading my free time, cause that's what work would pay me to do the same), and the increased likelihood that if you're 40 miles from home and feeling peckish, you're paying for a snack instead of going home to have lunch in a little while.

I guess that I never really grasped this burning *need* for the mall in anyone other than teenaged girls.
18 January 2006
at 2:35 p.m.

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DGL (Anonymous) says…

You can't get top of the line items in Lawrence—that's a primary reason many shoppers (myself included) go to Overland Park or elsewhere to shop.

18 January 2006
at 2:43 p.m.

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badger (Anonymous) says…

Top of what line? What sort of items? Clothes? Soap? Cookware? Cat food? Electronics? Scotch?

I really have no idea what that means. It's remarkably vague.

All I ever hear is vague “I can't find anything I want to buy in Lawrence” and I'm starting to hear that as “I'm locked into certain behavioural patterns and perfectly happy with that.”
18 January 2006
at 2:46 p.m.

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Dayna38 (Dayna Lee) says…

Forget a mall!!! I want a water park!!! People go to KC or Topeka, because it's exciting to get out and do something. If it wasn't they would just buy those things online.
18 January 2006
at 2:54 p.m.

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Godot (Anonymous) says…

I don't see how this brief article generated speculation about a new shopping mall. It looks to me like it is about the new shops to be built in the “new urbanism”
projects.
18 January 2006
at 3:12 p.m.

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benm024 (Anonymous) says…

Um..

babygap
gapkids
talbots kids
ann taylor
banana republic
bebe
Bombay company
Brookstone
Cheescake factory
nordstrom
lord & taylor
disney store
eddie bauer
express
footlocker
guess
j.crew
KB toys
ll bean
limited
nautica
pf changs
panera bread
sunglass hut
yankee candle
williams sonoma

ect. on and on ad nausea.

Stop acting like there is nothing the mall offers that you cant get in Lawrence. These places may not be your cup of tea, but they are a big part of why people have to leave here to shop.

Yet another example of, I don't like this stuff so MY city should not have it.
18 January 2006
at 3:37 p.m.

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badger (Anonymous) says…

I never said I didn't like it so no one should have it. However, what I am saying is, “Why should people get bent out of shape and spend a bunch of public money to attract businesses that don't seem to see the profit in moving to Lawrence for the sake of making money, so they can look just like every other city?” If Nordstrom doesn't think it can make money opening a store in Lawrence, why build them a shiny new shopping mall or retail district? If we were a good market, we'd already have those stores, wouldn't we?

Those are brands, not products. You want specific stores, then I guess you go to where those stores are. But never say that the *products* those stores sell aren't available here. Some of us are just a little less label-conscious, I guess. Along with malls, that's another thing I've really understood the appeal of. A dress that fits and looks nice is a dress that fits and looks nice whether you bought it at Nordstrom, Talbot's, Weaver's, or Target. A nice scented candle is good whether it comes from Yankee Candle or Waxman, though I find I like Waxman's scents more on a point-to-point comparison.

By the way, did the Panera close? There used to be one in town, but I hadn't eaten there in a few years, so they may not be there any more. Just like there used to be an Eddie Bauer downtown - but not enough people shopped there to make it worth the company's while to keep it open when they restructured. I did on occasion, so it must have been other people not shopping there that tanked it. Most of the restaurants you listed have equivalents in town, and I've never had any trouble, in any case, finding good places to eat in Lawrence.

Most of those places, restaurants aside, have better selections on their websites than they do at any store. Why not completely skip the mall and just buy online? If I want a pair of jeans and none of the stores in town carry the kind I want, then why not just get online and save the gas and time?

I don't get what some people seem to want. They complain that they can't get all these chain stores, and all these jobs, and the right kind of attention to their traffic woes, and cheap enough housing in Lawrence. I keep hearing variations on, “I moved to Lawrence, but the cost of housing is so high, I can't afford to live here if I work here. Lawrence didn't plan well enough for a massive commuter population, so I want tax money spent to put in new roads that benefit me even if roads in North Lawrence have foot-deep potholes in them. None of the stores I know already are here, and I'm not interested in finding new ones to replace my ingrained brand loyalty, so I have to shop in KC on my lunch break from work.”

The solution to that complaint seems kind of obvious to me.
18 January 2006
at 4:11 p.m.

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merrill (Anonymous) says…

Um..

babygap
gapkids
talbots kids
ann taylor
banana republic
bebe
Bombay company
Brookstone
Cheescake factory
nordstrom
lord & taylor
disney store
eddie bauer
express
footlocker
guess
j.crew
KB toys
ll bean
limited
nautica
pf changs
panera bread
sunglass hut
yankee candle
williams sonoma

Sounds like the plaza. There are not enough retail dollars
in Lawrence. Now our kids do shop downtown so no longer running to the OP mall. Hand me downs certainly help out with our youngest…love that. If these are the places that attract you perhaps you are living in the wrong town. We do not spend a lot of time shopping so perhaps I do not understand.

However there was a time when shopping for our children Weavers and JC Penney simply were not doing the job yet Target could on many items. Finding 32/36 jeans in Lawrence can be tough as well as size 2-4 in Levi women's. Size 12-13 men shoes also can limit shoe selection in Lawrence as does a size 7 mens.
18 January 2006
at 4:19 p.m.

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benm024 (Anonymous) says…

“Why should people get bent out of shape and spend a bunch of public money to attract businesses that don't seem to see the profit in moving to Lawrence for the sake of making money, so they can look just like every other city?”

Well, more business = more jobs = more choice = happy people = more people = better city with more jobs, choice, and happy people.

Your dress is a dress argument is naive. Its called choice. If all anybody wanted is a dress they can go to Jo Bob's dress shop and get a dress. What about the people who prefer the dresses that Wild Bills Fashion Emporium offers? Out of luck I guess, since “a dress is a dress”

Again, just because it's not what you want, does not mean it's not good for the city.
18 January 2006
at 4:21 p.m.

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my2girls (Anonymous) says…

Forget the internet! You can't try on clothes over the internet! And it wouldn't take 20 to 30 minutes to get to KC or Topeka if the South Lawrence Trafficway was complete!

18 January 2006
at 4:22 p.m.

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Confrontation (Anonymous) says…

Most of the stores on or near Mass Street tend to be very overpriced. I know they have high rent and taxes, but I'm not always willing to pay high prices because of the location they chose. There are some nice speciality shops if you just have to have those English biscuits or a $6.50 bar of soap. Yes, I admit that I have bought soap on Mass Street for that price, but it smells really good :) I like having those specialty stores if I'm looking for something specific, but I have to shop at the larger stores for clothing and other stuff, since I'm an underpaid worker from Lawrence with overpriced rent.
18 January 2006
at 4:25 p.m.

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benm024 (Anonymous) says…

“If these are the places that attract you perhaps you are living in the wrong town.”

Ah brilliant. I love the inevitable “if you don't like it F off” argument.

How bout, Lawrence is growing up, whether you like it or not. So instead of fighting change, embrace it, and know that it's making others happy and it is long past due.

Funny thing is, I hate malls. But I love choice, and I love variety, and I know we can have it all. It does not have to be one or the other.
18 January 2006
at 4:37 p.m.

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Spades (Anonymous) says…

The main complaint I have of downtown vs. mall, and an arguement that has not be brought up, is that downtown is outside, versus a mall that is indoors. That is one of the draws of the mall, that you can go to one place, and walk inside, versus going to a parking place, and walking 8 or 9 blocks outside round trip to your car. During rain or cold, I'll guarantee that downtown businesses suffer, where an indoor mall would not. And I agree that there are shops in the OP Mall that I purchase from, simply because I cannot find them hear. Same with the Plaza. I would certainly rather drive to the Plaza from Lawrence and shop outside than shop downtown Lawrence. More shops, better selection, better atmosphere.
18 January 2006
at 4:38 p.m.

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dlhj (Anonymous) says…

If Lawrence had the entire list of stores that someone else listed above….we'd just be another suburb of KC or Chicago or every other cookie cutter city in America. If it's that important to be near all those stores- and the ones here don't work for you- then why not move somewhere that has all those stores, instead of living here and complaining? I realize that may not be a practical possibility, but it really gets old listening to all these people who live here because they “love” Lawrence, but then complain about all the stuff it doesn't have, all the while turning the town into another Johnson County. All you have to do is look at the west side of Lawrence- hardly indistinguishable from JoCo now.

Don't get me wrong- I love shopping at those stores as well- but every town can't have everything. I think we've got a lot of great shops here that others don't have.

Like someone else pointed out- I don't think Lawrence could support a lot of those types of stores. Eddie Bauer is a prime example.
18 January 2006
at 5:04 p.m.

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benm024 (Anonymous) says…

Once again, its I want it my way, I wont settle for anyone who does not like exactly what I like being happy. Just me me me. You know, you can still hang out at Replay lounge and buy all your records and 8-tracks at Keifs with or without the stores mentioned above. Besides it sounds like they would go in near West Lawrence which you obviously despise, so you wont have to see them, or the “yuppies” that frequent them anyway.
18 January 2006
at 5:23 p.m.

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badger (Anonymous) says…

Man, you sure are good with the assumptions.

My argument is (I'll try and use small words) not 'a dress is a dress'. It's 'a dress that fits your criteria is a dress that fits your criteria regardless of whether you bought it at Nordstrom's or Weaver's, but a lot of people seem to insist that you must have all the same stores somewhere else has to be as good as that place is.'

I don't get that and likely never will. I think that if you are so hung up on having a community that looks, acts, and feels like another community, then you're probably living in the wrong one. That's not 'F you if you don't like it get out of town,' it's 'Hey, why not actually look around, and if you just can't stand for where you are to not be like where you're not, then make everyone happy and go there.'

It's going to cost the city a fair bit of money to try and draw in these businesses, and I somehow doubt that the jobs that come in because Lawrence has a PF Chang's are going to make much of a difference in the local economy. You want to draw in a bunch of minimum-to-medium-wage retail staffed by college kids working for spending money and call it economic progress, go ahead.

But what about really growing Lawrence, and working harder than the city commission has been to bring in light industry or tech jobs? What about courting the large engineering firms or architectural firms? Those will bring *real* jobs to Lawrence, and real growth, and real prosperity, meaning that the likelihood of a living wage *not* mandated by city ordinance will be available to a lot of Lawrencians.

Or, like, you know, a Banana Republic would be totally cool. Then I could, like, buy some really nice pants.

Just because I think the notion of a shopping mall and a babygap being considered 'progress' is idiotic, don't assume that I hate progress. I just apparently hate this particular insular, brainless, short-sighted concept of it.
18 January 2006
at 5:25 p.m.

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Oread (Anonymous) says…

I for one hope Lawrence does not amend zoning regs to add a large free-standing “suburban-style” shopping mall classification. My reasons for this are numerous but at the heart of the matter is local culture and local businesses.

First, malls are largely owned by international developers not regional land development companies. Often the international groups will have local/regional real estate developers as point persons but that is all for the illusion and to keep the political pipeline at ground zero oiled and lubed. In the end, most of the millions in profit end up overseas. I believe an Australian company, a real cut-throat investment firm, is the largest mall owner in America.

Secondly, in Lawrence you have to 'search places out' for things. Which is really what the local merchants and national chains love about their stores in Lawrence. It may take longer to shop in Lawrence, but browsing can be a real art form.

I know a lot of people have expressed that Lawrence is somehow 'losing out,' but IMHO we gain a great deal more by leaving the suburban-style shopping malls to other larger communities like T-town and KC.

For 30 days out of the year (Xmas shopping season) you might be time-pinched for a one stop shopping excursion but it is the other 335 days a year that folks should reconsider. That's 335 days when people come thru town and see a vibrant downtown and boutique shop in Lawrence; and shop a little longer than they would elsewhere because Lawrence is different than all the rest of the little cities around the region.

Historically, consider how our town, not just downtown, but all of retail shopping in Lawrence, came roaring back after the “cornfield mall” zoning proposal was shot down. We now have retailers that will go the extra few steps to do something better, and yes sometimes a little more expensive (i.e.: a free standing building or renovation to existing). But we as citizens of this town ASK for that kind of investment before you partner up and exchange tax revenue for profit.

My hope is that we can keep the 16-year olds happy with going on “shopping day trips” to OakPark Mall and West Ridge Mall; and the rest of us can enjoy the city life in ways that so few others in cities of 100,000 inhabitants can only dream. I still believe that Lawrence is the largest city in America w/out a suburban style shopping mall, and that we should be proud of that!
18 January 2006
at 5:51 p.m.

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benm024 (Anonymous) says…

Badger,

No need to use small words, im sure I can handle your vocabulary :)

However, I cannot handle your close-minded, narrow, and elitist point of view. Having the same amenities as other more developed cities does not make you just like another community. Are you so paranoid and insecure in your desire to be different that you can't let go of the small minded small town cult mentality.

No matter. Like I said earlier nay sayers and sky is falling people like you are in the minority. Most people prefer having their cake and eating it to, which is what we started to get with Best Buy, Home Depot, Gap, ect. and what we will continue to pursue.

18 January 2006
at 7:26 p.m.

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dlhj (Anonymous) says…

glock- I never claimed to be an expert, I was merely expressing my opinion. Besides, it hardly takes extensive research to see that Eddie Bauer did in fact close, and that much of western Lawrence does in fact resemble Johnson County.

All I meant is that every town isn't going to have every store that every resident wants. I think it's great if some of these stores start moving in to Lawrence, I don't have a problem with that. What I don't like are the people (and it's no one specifically here, just things I've heard around town from people over the years) who come here because Lawrence is “so neat, so unique, etc” and then as soon as they're here, complain because it doesn't have every generic chain known to man.
18 January 2006
at 7:39 p.m.

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badger (Anonymous) says…

OK, I'll try again.

Let's say I want some pants. My criteria for those pants are, “khaki, 100% cotton, my size, well-made, lots of pockets.” There is no store or brand information involved, mainly because I've bought some really crappy name-brand pants at expensive stores, and found my favorite cargo pants ever off-brand for fifteen bucks at Target. I have no faith in branding, because I have almost never found a brand that has a universally trustworthy quality across all products - or even universally bad quality across all products.

It seems to me that some people's criteria boils down to “From the Banana Republic.” If that's the life you're going to live, then you need to either live somewhere that you will have that, or be content with driving to it. A lot of people, when they decide to look for pants, seem to look for the stores they've been conditioned to shop at, and if those stores aren't there, then they don't entertain the idea that stores they aren't familiar with might have pants just as nice as the ones they'd get at the stores they know. But most people aren't even bothering to look. They're just complaining that the stores they know aren't there so they can't possibly buy pants, and since everyone needs pants, obviously the place they're living *needs* to have the places they buy pants. That's faulty logic, because in most cases they've never actually looked for the pants themselves, just familiar stores to buy them in - and yet they insist that there are no pants.

Some people are trained, like little Pavlovian spit machines, to believe that you have to shop at the places you see on television, or that you shopped when you were a child, or that all your friends shop. If you're going out for coffee, you want the comfort of the Starbucks menu, because you're sure that the coffee will be consistent with other Starbucks - not better than anything else, just consistent with what you're used to. That's a mindset I don't have, and hope never to have. You look around and find the best cup of coffee you can afford, or the best pair of pants, whether you're drinking Folgers from Wal-Mart in your Dickies or Jamaican Blue from Prima Tazza in Armani.
18 January 2006
at 7:43 p.m.

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badger (Anonymous) says…

Now, my reasons why Lawrence doesn't need all those things are less about your imagined 'close-mindedness' (sic) than they are about simple realities:

Lawrence can't support those businesses. How do I know this? Because the businesses aren't trying to move in. There's a Gap downtown with an empty store in its little row of stores. Why, what a perfect location for a gapkids! I wonder why they haven't put one in? It has stood empty for quite some time since the Eddie Bauer closed.

Lawrence doesn't have the population to support it yet. Nor does it have the population to support the Plaza or even a reasonable facsimile thereof. You could put in a Nordstrom's, and a lot of people in Lawrence would be happy, but it would just move right back out again in five years.

Why waste the money trying to entice those businesses here if there's not enough incentive in simple sales and income to get them here without bending over backwards? Why give the chain retail stores breaks that will make it 'worth their while' to come to Lawrence, just to reward the brand loyalty of a section of the population? Why spend city money giving you comfortable and familiar places to shop if the businesses themselves aren't eager to come to this market? Any economic benefits they might bring in seven-fifty-an-hour jobs for college students is offset for several years by the money spent to draw them in. By the time they'd actually have made that up, the town will be big enough to merit the stores vying to open their doors in Lawrence anyway.

Some of you seem to be putting forth the notion that somehow a pair of Dockers from Kohls is not the same as a pair of Dockers from The Jones Store, or that a vanilla candle from Yankee Candle is, by virtue of where it was bought, going to be better than a vanilla candle from Waxman's - and not just better, better enough to insist that an entire town just doesn't have candles and should make efforts to entice Yankee Candle to put in a store 'so people can buy candles.'

Wait until they court Lawrence, not the other way around. If you want a Cheesecake Factory, write weekly letters, and get all the people who drive to it with you to do the same, asking them to open a restaurant in Lawrence. It's called capitalism, that companies go where they can make money, and when it comes to the government making concessions and all but paying a company to come sell things to its citizens, that's just bad business sense.

If Lawrence were a city that those stores *wanted* to come to, that would be one thing. But it can't, on its own, hold them, so if it's that important to you to live someplace where you have access to those places, you need to live somewhere with the buying clout to get and hold those businesses, not somewhere that you have to try to get the city commission to lure them in.
18 January 2006
at 9:08 p.m.

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dviper (Anonymous) says…

Many good posts on this brief news article. I'm looking forward to reading Thursday's news article.

The city commissioners will ignore the information in this study, because it's not what they want to hear. This city commission along with many others in the past does not want a mall to be built in Lawrence. Several years ago a proposal to build a mall was rejected by the city commission and yet today we have more retail commercial space at 31st and Iowa than what the proposed mall would have been. The city commission and many people in Lawrence believe that 'the downtown' is the unique character and feel of Lawrence, and thus want to protect it above all else, including discriminatory practices towards businesses not located downtown. Ultimately this is what will doom downtown.

Just one example of this is the Home Depot and surrounding site development. The city commissioners made Home Depot build a smaller store than they wanted, and thus Lawrence has the smallest Home Depot store in the country. The city commission also forced Home Depot to pay for city street improvements at 31st and Iowa that had nothing to do with the store. If Home Depot did not agree to pay for a significant portion of the street improvements the city commission was going to reject the development. Even one of the previous city commissioners stated that the street improvements at 31st and Iowa were long overdue and were needed regardless of Home Depot development. The city commission also made sure that the remaining retail commercial space was restricted in size, thus making it more difficult to attract businesses. These are just a few examples, there are many, many more.

What will it take to get a nice mall in Lawrence? Several things, but two very critical steps above all else. First, the businesses that want to locate here at a possible new mall must not be hamstrung by the city of Lawrence. Second and more important is the voters in the city of Lawrence need to elect city commissioners that support a mall. I don't know if this will happen if ever. One reason I think this is because so many people that support a mall work outside of Lawrence and usually do not vote in the local elections. I know this is true for my immediate neighborhood.

I agree with many of the previous posters and their reasons why they chose not to shop in downtown Lawrence, and why they shop in KC. I buy a lot of merchandise from stores in the Oak Park Mall, and I really like the Plaza area for shopping or just people watching and enjoying the area. I doubt that Lawrence will ever have a mall like Oak Park or anything like the Plaza area, so I will continue to leave Lawrence for my shopping.
18 January 2006
at 11:47 p.m.

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Oread (Anonymous) says…

Pilgrim, its not just about downtown. You have shopping outlets elsewhere in town and many more will come. I will respond to each of your remarks.

“It's also 335 days of overpriced merchandise, extremely limited inventory and variety, and stores that close before you can get there, even from elsewhere in Lawrence, on all but one night a week.” AND, We now have retailers that will go the extra few steps to do something better. “Where?”

The retailers I spoke of are the retailers that are BOTH downtown (largely boutiques) AND on south Iowa. Kohl's came, others will follow. It is well known that we have high (not stratospheric, but high) development standards, and others retailers will come when Lawrence reaches their threshold for development. The City of Lawrence with regards to The Home Depot development was often criticised for being too demanding in the way it developed the site planning and road improvements along Iowa and 31st Streets (perhaps, costing hundreds of thousands more to the developers)

“If downtown Lawrence really wants to survive and not have to compete with the big box stores or a mall, it needs to start acting like those competitors. Stay open until 9:00 EVERY night.”

It is not just about downtown. But they “downtown Lawrence” already compete, and, they have a very small share of the market. With regards to downtown, and other diverse areas, it is not a matter of imitation but a decision of promoting sustainability.

“FREE parking. Etc.”

Regarding parking downtown, the metering serves many purposes essential to the mixed-use developments that make downtown Lawrence unique.

I believe I made an error in excluding other types of developments, restaurants, theatres, etc. in saying RETAIL-only came “roaring-back” after the cornfield mall was scraped. I should add that many more areas of town were developed since no one single central retail/entertainment district was developed. You can hardly argue that there are far more choices today for dining-out, shopping, and entertaining than there was 18-years ago. They are just not in one place!

And I see that we agree that we should demand compliance on zoning and developement issues: “we should INSIST.”

That all said, I hope you enjoy your shopping in Topeka, nothing wrong with that.
19 January 2006
at 8:29 a.m.

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badger (Anonymous) says…

Gl0ck0wner -

I suppose now I should say something snarky like, “Typical ignorant knee-jerk deliberate misunderstanding of what I said.”

OK, here goes:

1. For some people, where an item comes from is critically important.
2. For some of those people, having those places conveniently located for them is critically important.
3. Lawrence does not have the business base and customer base to support the number, size, and variety of stores that Kansas City does - because it's a small city, not a large one.
4. Lawrence won't have that capability for several years, and those stores know it, so they're in no hurry to open stores here. They make their money whether you buy in Lawrence or buy in Kansas City or buy in Topeka, because they've trained their customers to brand loyalty. Why would they add the expense and risk of a store that might not be able to support itself?
5. If it's critically important to you to shop at certain stores, and to have those stores within a few miles of you, then the options you have are to support bringing them here and subsidizing them until Lawrence can actually support them, to support bringing them here and having them close like Eddie Bauer did, or to move to where they are.
6. Spending city money to sweeten the deal enough to get those stores into town before the town itself and the business there draw them is just a plain stupid use of tax money.
7. Advocating that businesses come here if there's a better than usual chance they'll close is economically unwise.
8. Ergo, if you're one of the people mentioned in #5, who just cannot survive without being five or ten miles from certain brand stores, I think you're probably best advised to move there, because it's not yet smart business for them to move here.

Get it now? Let the market dictate whether or not Lawrence gets a Banana Republic. If you're really gung-ho, then write Banana Republic and ask them to put a store here. Tell them how much you spend there annually, and how much more you'd spend if it was eight miles from your house. Get all your friends who want one to do the same. See if they care. If you're really really gung-ho, buy yourself a shopping center, kick out the existing tenants, and write the companies you want to come here offering to let them open stores in your shopping center for little or no rent because Lawrence 'needs' those businesses.

I think it's typically ignorant that anyone who opposes spending that time, energy and money to bring in stores and businesses the city can't entice simply on the merits of its shoppers is branded as an elitist who hates free choice. I'm all about free choice; it's the basis for capitalism, an economic system I find very handy to have. I just think that it's a retail company's job to expand into new markets, not a city's job to 'complete' itself by having all the 'right' stores.