New Urbanism project approved / LJWorld.com

Archive for Wednesday, January 11, 2006

Commission OKs Sixth, Wakarusa plan despite traffic fears

January 11, 2006

Lawrence residents should get ready for a new type of neighborhood in northwest Lawrence.

But city commissioners were deeply divided Tuesday night on whether residents should welcome the high-density New Urbanism-style development or brace themselves for a mess of traffic along West Sixth Street.

Commissioners on a 3-2 vote approved a set of rezonings and a preliminary development plan for Bauer Farm, a 43-acre commercial and residential neighborhood at the northeast corner of Sixth Street and Wakarusa Drive.

"For lack of better words, this project will be a real showcase, a real entryway for this community," City Commissioner Mike Amyx said.

The project, proposed by Lawrence architect Michael Treanor, will be an eclectic mix of uses, with single-family homes next to multifamily apartment buildings, and shops, stores and offices all within walking distance of the approximately 200 homes. The project also will include a space for the Lawrence Community Theatre and unique living arrangements such as apartments above garages and loft living spaces above retail stores.

Karl Gehring/Journal-World Illustration

Commissioners on Tuesday agreed that it marked a different style of Lawrence neighborhood, but some thought it created as many concerns as compliments.

"There are good things about this project, but there are others that literally scare me into voting against this project," said City Commissioner David Schauner, who along with Commissioner Mike Rundle voted against the plan.

Both Schauner and Rundle said they had serious concerns about the amount of traffic the development would generate and how the 61,350 square feet of retail space would compete with downtown Lawrence. Both said the plan went against recommendations in Horizon 2020 and a subsequent area plan that said the site - which is in front of Free State High School and extends eastward to Folks Road - should be developed with low-intensity commercial uses.

Reader poll

"This is a decision everyone who drives on West Sixth Street is going to have to live with," Schauner said. "If we say yes to it, I don't know how we're going to say no to anything. We ought to just let people bring projects forward and we'll rubber-stamp them. Don't we have any standards anymore?"

The project drew some opposition from neighbors. Alan Cowles, president of the West Lawrence Neighborhood Assn., said the plan was a poor example of New Urbanism - which emphasizes pedestrian-friendly designs and attempts to create an old-style neighborhood feel. He also had concerns that the project would create traffic problems because it would allow too much commercial development.

"All of us have been up and down 23rd Street and seen the traffic," Cowles said. "The reason it has the traffic is because it has more development than the road can handle."

But members of the public - especially fans of the community theater, now at 1501 N.H. - urged commissioners to approve the plan.

"You could come a little early, join a couple for dinner, maybe do a little light shopping and then walk over to the theater," said Jane Bateman, a Lawrence resident and theater supporter. "It seems like a nice way to spend an evening."

Treanor said he hoped to complete the design of the project and break ground by early 2007. Theater leaders said their plans were less certain because they would require a fundraising effort.

Discussion

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11 January 2006
at 6:21 a.m.

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punkrockmom (Anonymous) says…

I think it's craptacular.
11 January 2006
at 6:33 a.m.

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blue73harley (Anonymous) says…

A Wal Mart would make it look even better.
11 January 2006
at 6:53 a.m.

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blue73harley (Anonymous) says…

Amen Bowhunter amen! At least people north of town going east-west can use I70.
11 January 2006
at 6:56 a.m.

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merrill (Anonymous) says…

An economic impact study would also have been prudent not to mention putting this project on the back burner until specific standards are written. Obviously 3 have little to no respect for Horizon 2020.

Lack of respect for planning is how the Lawrence bedroom community was born. Bad planning brought us Riverfront Plaza, Tanger Mall,all those westside streets that go nowhere and maybe a new sports arena. This will be one more intersection to avoid.
11 January 2006
at 7:28 a.m.

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neopolss (Anonymous) says…

23rd street will always be a mess. Commuter traffic will continue to increase, just enough to replace the bypass traffic. There's less bypass traffic than you might think though. Unless you are making a delivery to Lawrence, there's no reason to use 10 highway. A route driver would take I-70 or I-35 through Ottowa.

As for the urbanism, there's a reason most inner cities are nothing more than hollowed out remnants. Most people no longer WANT to live next to noisy apartments and businesses. That's exactly why most moved out into the quiet suburbs.
11 January 2006
at 7:32 a.m.

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Twedledumber (Anonymous) says…

Folks, it always come back to the same thing, it's not about the community, or the city or a new type of urban lifestyle. It's all about “Show me the money”. Follow the smell of the money and you'll find the real motivation behind much of the development in western Lawrence. It's not about making Lawrence a better place to live.
11 January 2006
at 7:34 a.m.

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bmwjhawk (Anonymous) says…

It's stupid and small. Who's going to build a “mansion home” in a tiny slice of a neighborhood? I'm excited to watch it fail. Dumb, Dumb, Dumb. They fight a new Wal-Mart with all their might, but this wacky dreamworld is acceptable? HA! Good job, commission! Keep rubber-stamping everything without a “-Mart” suffix and overcrowd the streets even more. Make a cross-town drive in ANY direction a 15-minute proposition and people might start moving away. What a joke!

11 January 2006
at 7:48 a.m.

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blue73harley (Anonymous) says…

Neo - believe me, there is plenty of truck traffic going into Larryville on K10 and it is getting worse every day. I can't give you stats but check out all of the semi trailers at the old Honeywell plant or the old E&E plant. Add LRM trucks and Agricultrual semis heading west.
11 January 2006
at 7:53 a.m.

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trueninetiesgirl (Anonymous) says…

now you know why, they are overlooking north lawrence. this new project is more important than peoples home flooding.
11 January 2006
at 8:18 a.m.

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Centrist (Anonymous) says…

How about FIXING the damn roads before voting for this crap, or Dadaism or whatever.

We have a true bunch of morons running this city.

They hardly decorated for Christmas much this year too, yet the sparse lighting is still up on Mass. St.

These yobbos have no clue about government.
11 January 2006
at 8:34 a.m.

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KsGirl (Anonymous) says…

Does Lawrence really need more houses? We have new houses being built and “for sale” signs in yards all across Lawrence. Also, what about all the empty apartments currently available to rent. Why build more?
11 January 2006
at 8:51 a.m.

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jayheel (Anonymous) says…

This project would work better closer to downtown. Curbing sprawl should be about slowing growth in the suburbs and reinforcing high density zoning in the urban core. I suggest putting this either in North Lawrence or tween Rhode Island and NH.

What Lawrence really needs is more duplexes. HA!
11 January 2006
at 8:52 a.m.

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The_Original_Bob (Anonymous) says…

Ks Girl - Simple economics. Build new = higher rents and home prices. The old apts will become Old Urbanism or better known as Ghettos.

On this New Urbanism deal (by the way… Hooooorrrible name) - I'd be interested to see how other communitites' New Urbanism projects fair. It seems like all these are the rage (fad) right now and will wonder what happens if these are just a gimmicky idea to line developer's pockets.

Do families want to live next to single folks in a confined area like this?

Details on tax breaks… can the majority of citizens responsible for tax breaks actually afford to live in this area?

What kind of stores? If this is approved can Mass St. be limited to certain kinds of stores (i.e. - no Gap).

Bars?

On the surface this really just sounds like a Yuppie Commune but I haven't seen enough details to make an opinion.
11 January 2006
at 8:59 a.m.

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imagold (Anonymous) says…

As mentioned in prior posts, I thought the traffic issue was one of the reasons they poo-pooed Wal-Mart. These people drive me nuttier.
11 January 2006
at 9:14 a.m.

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invisible_insanity (Anonymous) says…

I am a little dissapointed in the site plan - this does not seem like a mixed use development. If you draw a line down the center of the plan the the left side is commercial and the right side is residential. Mix it up a little!

11 January 2006
at 9:38 a.m.

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badger (Anonymous) says…

Anyone want to take bets that where it says 'Coffee shop' it might as well just say 'Starbucks'?

All hail the mochalattefrapucciniato! Sieg froth!

*grumbles*

#^&%$#^&* Starbucks and their crappy coffee…

*curls protectively around 2lb bag of Kilimanjaro Tiger*

It's my own, my precious….my Prima Tazza…It's ours, it came to us on our birthday with a free coffee drink…
11 January 2006
at 9:44 a.m.

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76_IH_Scout_Dad (Anonymous) says…

I like the idea, it's just to small. What are we looking at? One square block? The pitch was people who lived there could walk to the attractions. Well, I'm an out of shape 30-something with a pack a day habit. I could walk farther than a block. Plus, I thought it was supposed to mixed? Looks like right hand side, residents, left hand side commercial. So, other than a street running between the two what's the difference between this and the current standard? What they should do is mix up the residences and commercial businesses. Then, market the homes and attractions to younger people without children. For example, I'd love to live in a place where I can walk to dinner, then the bar or entertainment. During the week, it would be great to get home from work, and be able to walk to a gym to work out, hit a small grocer and pick up something to fix for dinner. Currently I am married and have children. This sort of environment doesn't appeal to me now. Now I like my little back yard and my quiet street. Typical Lawrence half thought out plan. The Tanger, the Riverfront, all of those had great potential.
11 January 2006
at 9:51 a.m.

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lv2ride (Anonymous) says…

I agree with all who are asking about the walmart. What the north side of town needs is a Walmart so that the people who live on the north side do not have to travel clear across town just to go to the local walmart. Yeah, some may say that it is not bad to travel all the way across town…but, traffic can make it a long dreadful trip!
If I am not mistaken, one of the big reasons people were against the new walmart on the north side of town was because of traffic…what do they think *this* project is going to do to the traffic? Com'mon people (running this town), use your brains!!!
I would really, much rather see a walmart on the northwest side of town than a bunch of new apartments!!! There are already a bunch of new houses go up out there. I also agree with those of you who have said that there are enough empty apartments and houses already.
11 January 2006
at 9:51 a.m.

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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…

Well, folks, the reality is this:

This place will go one of two ways; it will become a gated community, which is OK by me or it will fail and become a Section 8 project.

Either way, who cares?

Thanks.

Marion.
11 January 2006
at 9:54 a.m.

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benm024 (Anonymous) says…

Wow, unbelievable, what exactly does everybody want? You people are no better then the city commission. At least they finally decided to do something constructive. If it was up to some of you complainers this city would remain the cow town it was when I went to school here. I happen to love Lawrence. It blows any other city in Kansas out of the water. That said, it needs to continue to grow… As far as it being another “yuppie” area they are building. Maybe that's not such a bad thing, considering it would be the ONLY area like that. The idea of fine dining followed by the theater sounds great to me.

This town needs to cater to ALL types of people, not just you. If you don't like it stay in the part of town you do like. Stop being so narrow minded. Continue to enjoy walking Mass Street, and hiking and biking in North Lawrence, and taking advantage of South Lawrence amenities, and continuing to patronize and encourage fine dining in West Lawrence. …And when this project is all said and done, stroll around the new atmosphere they create, and take in some theater. You never know, you might even like it.
11 January 2006
at 9:55 a.m.

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lv2ride (Anonymous) says…

i agree with bowhunter!!!!!!!!!!!!! you are exactly right!!!!!!
11 January 2006
at 9:55 a.m.

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invisible_insanity (Anonymous) says…

76_IH_Scout_Dad is right on the money. I am a “younger person without children” and would like living in a place like he describes, but not in the plan they have here - there are not enough mixed use elements and yes it is too small. I hope this project does not give “New Urbanism” a bad name and prevent further mixed-use developments.
11 January 2006
at 10:02 a.m.

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The_Original_Bob (Anonymous) says…

Regarding whether or not this is actually a mixed development… perhaps they count on the homeless people living on the commercial side.

11 January 2006
at 10:03 a.m.

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lv2ride (Anonymous) says…

benm024…

You are way off…out of line!!! The whole point of this forum is for people to post their opinions!!!!
I do live in that part of town and have for a very long time and I do not agree with this project! so how am I supose to stay in the part of town that I enjoy and away from this new project when they are developing it right in the middle of my choice part of town? Do you know any kind of respect for people at all? obviously not!
If you do not want to hear from us “complainers” than don't come to the forums and read them!!! Take your own advice and stay away!!!
11 January 2006
at 10:05 a.m.

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benm024 (Anonymous) says…

lv2ride,

People in West Lawrence don't want a frigging Wal-Mart in their backyard, period. Talk about driving down property values, no thanks. Wal-Mart is just where it needs to be, with the rest of the big box department stores. It takes all of 10 minutes to drive to Wal-Mart from anywhere in Lawrence, you'll live.
11 January 2006
at 10:19 a.m.

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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…

Imaginary Coffee Conversation”

“Badger: Darn, Marion! This some serious gourmet stuff! We woulda been satisfied with some freeze-dried Taster's Choice, right? And he springs this serious gourmet stuff on us. What flavor is this?

Marion: Knock it off, Badger.

Badger: What?

Marion: I don't need you to tell me how freakin' good my coffee is, ok? I'm the one who buys it. I know how good it is. When Kiki goes shopping, she buys crap. I buy the gourmet expensive stuff 'cause when I drink it, I wanna taste it. But you know what's on my mind right now? It ain't the coffee in my kitchen. It's the knuckleheads that put this project together and the fools who approved it!”

;)

Thanks.

Marion.
11 January 2006
at 10:30 a.m.

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lv2ride (Anonymous) says…

benm024…

I know for a fact that it takes longer than 10 minutes to drive to Walmart from my house…My previous post was MY opinion and I stand behind it…Just because YOU don't want a walmart in northwest Lawrence does not mean others don't as well!! Don't be so stuck on yourself!!! Yeah I will live and I would much rather live with myself….then to be petty and stuck on myself, the way it sounds that you are! You have a wonderful Day!
11 January 2006
at 10:39 a.m.

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badger (Anonymous) says…

*snort*

You totally have it wrong, Marion (though excellent use of references…).

I would never have been satisfied with freeze-dried Taster's Choice, even from Quentin Tarantino - and especially not from the Lawrence City Government.

They'd probably give me *&#$^#%^ soymilk.

Besides, Mr. Marion, the last thing you need is another *&%^ cup of coffee…

By the by, the article notes that some of the commercial areas will have loft housing in them, so it's really 'housing on both sides and commercial stuff on the left.'

I guess my curiosity is whether the housing will be affordable enough for the people who work in the businesses near them. If the people the 'new urban' area is designed to appeal to can't afford to pay their bills working in it, then it's just another developed corner of town.

If, in fact, the people who will be holding some of those jobs can afford that housing right there, then it's a grand idea. I'm just not sure how that will pan out.
11 January 2006
at 10:49 a.m.

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b_asinbeer (Anonymous) says…

I like this idea….it will make Lawrence look much better.
11 January 2006
at 10:56 a.m.

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greyhawk (Anonymous) says…

Any of you folks visited Zona Rosa in KC? Supposedly a mixed use New Urbanism development. It's more fake than a bad theatre set and has all the appeal of 5 day old coffee (perhaps the Taster's Choice alluded to above). Any thoughts on whether Bauer Farm will be Lawrence's version of Zona Rosa?

Then also…perhaps consider the interaction between 1200 high school students (outside of school hours, one hopes) and the merchants/residents of this development.

And…having approved this extensive deviation from Horizon 2020 and area plan, how can the city's lawyers argue with any semblance of veracity that Wal-Mart shouldn't be built in that area given the Talmudic distinction between variety store and department store that is at the heart of those lawsuits?
11 January 2006
at 10:57 a.m.

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benm024 (Anonymous) says…

petty? I'm the one advocating improvements and expansion. You are advocating your narrow minded way of living and expectations of Lawrence while disregarding your neighbors wishes. I would argue that you are the one being petty.

Now if I wanted to be petty, I would have said something like this: If cars on blocks in the front yard, pit bulls, super wal-marts, and cow pastures is what your into, you don't have to drive far from Lawrence to find it, but how bout letting everyone else enjoy the benifits of Lawrence life as well mm'kay?

11 January 2006
at 11 a.m.

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Todd (Anonymous) says…

badger, nice addition pointing out that people that work in the development won't be able to afford to live there. It's a point I haven't seen made about “new urbanism”. The few new mixed developments I've seen have been more expensive than regular developments.

Here's my 2 cents. Extend downtown east of mass. Build business building and put condos on top of them. This idea isn't popular but… for each house you tear down give that own a condo to own. Yep, don't buy out the property and have people move. AND… do it a bit at a time. Don't raze the whole friggin' place a block at a time. Do a lot or 2 at a time so growth keeps up with demand.

Just an idea.
11 January 2006
at 11:14 a.m.

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invisible_insanity (Anonymous) says…

“New Urbanism” / mixed-use developments does not necessairly mean expensive, although the recent projects in Lawrence of this nature have been. It looks like this plan incorporates starter homes, but it is hard from the picture to determine what price range that means - hopefully this project is an attempt to make this type of living more affordable.

Does anyone have a link to more detailed plans for Bauer Farms or any information on what the asking prices / rents will be?
11 January 2006
at 11:14 a.m.

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dviper (Anonymous) says…

I'm laughing my a$$ off this morning. This architect / developer has pulled off the ole' dog and pony show salesman trick. What a bunch of real winners we have on the Lawrence city commission. The only commissioner that I thought had any common sense was Mr. Amyx, and now that is questionable. Surprisingly, it seems that Mr. Schauner is the only commissioner that actually seems to understand the impact and future ramifications of this action. On a side note, I wonder how if any this decision helps Mr. Compton and his development partners on their lawsuits against the city of Lawrence?

Over a year ago, I was in support of an older less dense version of this project, however now in its' current version, it has way to much commercial. Mr. Treanor first pitched this idea before anyone was talking about 'new urbanism', but isn't it interesting that as soon as some of the city commissioners got on the 'new urbanism' bandwagon that this project suddenly became the Lawrence poster child project for touting new urbanism. Additionally, if anyone even remotely thinks that this project will look anything like his artist renderings is very naÃive.

Mr. Trainer and his development partners have got to be laughing themselves silly. By simply throwing in some Liberal loving type projects like the possibility of a community theatre and a few urbanism type features, they now have a green light to proceed with the project, unless the city commission pulls another 'we changed our mind' and then denies building permits like they did to the Wal-Mart project. As I have stated before in this forum, other developers will want to follow suit and develop projects like this because they maximize their land use with the high density which equals more profit.

I agree with many of the past and present posters, that have said this project just does not fit this location. Anywhere in North Lawrence would be a much better fit.
11 January 2006
at 11:19 a.m.

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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…

Badger:

You are correct about my not needing another cup'o'java!

Pinging around now!

I'd be that by the time that this cutesy little boondoggle is finished that the retail rental rates will be in the area of $34-40 per square foot and that the “loft” and “housing” prices will START at $280,000.00-300,000.00.

Like I said, elitist.

I don't mind if elitist communities are built but I get annoyed when the builder tries to hide the fact under the guise of “New Urbanism”.

Of course if the builder went to the Commission and TOLD it straight up how the thing would work out, the project would never be approved.

Oh, and there is not a chance in Hades that such a project would work out well nin North Lawrence.

Thanks.

Marion.
11 January 2006
at 11:28 a.m.

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spacystaci8 (Anonymous) says…

benm024- were you alive with the dinosaurs? just curious. Tell me again that it only takes 10 minutes across town from N Lawrence. Thats the best joke Ive heard all day.
11 January 2006
at 11:34 a.m.

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lv2ride (Anonymous) says…

benm024…

obviously you are the narrow minded one. There are people out there that are into the “cow pastures” as you put it. I show horses professionally and I might add am d*** good at it, make pretty good money at it. I am a proud owner of a multiple time World Champion.
Some of those who are into the “cow pasture” are the reason that people (I won't say you, cuz you could be one who doesn't eat meat) are able to eat hamburgers and steaks. I won't be so quick to cut those down. But if you want to be PETTY and NARROW minded, yes I said PETTY and NARROW minded, then go ahead…Don't include me, I have had enough of you for one day.
11 January 2006
at 11:38 a.m.

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lv2ride (Anonymous) says…

spacystaci8…

Thank you for your point!!! even from the area that they are planning to put this new development, it takes longer than 10 minutes!!!
11 January 2006
at 11:42 a.m.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…

Here's an idea, let's bulldoze all businesses in Lawrence, and replace them with a dozen Super Wal-Marts. Wouldn't want all those under-employed patrons of Wal-Mart to have to drive too far to access all those Chinese slave-labor produced goods.

11 January 2006
at 11:42 a.m.

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moderationman (Anonymous) says…

West 6th does NOT need a Wal-Mart. No one NEEDS a Wal-Mart. Talking about difficult traffic in Lawrence is hilarious unless you are trying to exit a KU football or basketball game. Get a grip, this is a different kind of development. It might actually work, it certainly can't be as bad as Johnson County.
11 January 2006
at 11:46 a.m.

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CalGal (Anonymous) says…

I've seen “New Urbanism” on a grand scale in California and it does resemble a movie set with all its inherent warmth and feeling. (For those of you at all familiar with San Jose, think “Santana Row”. Ugh.) Stepford, only scarier.
11 January 2006
at 11:51 a.m.

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lv2ride (Anonymous) says…

I never said that I or anyone NEEDS a walmart!!! I just said that I would rather see one on that side of town, because that is my opinion!!! i really don't care what happens. macon47 is right, it is out of our control. So, everyone can stop freaking out and attacking those with a personal opinion cuz none of us can do anything about it anyway.
11 January 2006
at 11:52 a.m.

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emilyhadley (Emily Hadley) says…

Parking lots, parking lots, parking lots. Compare the illustration with the pdf of the plan. The illustration looks disturbingly unfinished, but it's because the bare space amongst all those widely spaced 1-story commercial buildings, the open space is all (non-mixed use) asphalt.

Does a 300-person theatre seem small to anyone else? Is that worth new construction? I live near the present theatre, and I love the mix of foot traffic and parking jams the shows bring. Compare jogging across 15th from the Central Jr High lot to running for your life across 6th street clinging to your children, so you can grab a taco before the show.

I agree about the lack of mixed use. Where are the lofts? There are a lot of slots for prefabricated single family homes and single-story free-standing commercial buildings. I think the Hy-Vee strip mall is a more efficient use of space. Anything can be built in brick and landscaped, even Wal-Mart, which kills small and local business, takes our tax dollars for their contribution to the local economy, and pays low wages to workers.

Most importantly, folks…
* go to city commission meetings.
* speak your mind.
* contribute to open discussions.
* correspond with our representatives.
* VOTE.
* support sustainable and local businesses.

* be neighborly. It's the only way we've ever created neighborhoods.
11 January 2006
at 11:56 a.m.

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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…

Macon47, some of us remember and have learned from the destruction and tragedy of the “Urban Renewal” projects of the 1960s foisted on an unwilling public by early versions of the “Smart (Read:”Dumb”) Growthers.

The Downtown of Kansas City, Kansas was destroyed by this failed planning policy and it took years for anything that even LOOKED like recovery to begin.

The “artist”; a Christo-like goofball even SUED the City of KCK when it took down his ridiculous stainless steel “grain elevator” artwork which was in reality nothing but a traffic mipediment.

Streets were redsigned with angles and curves to “slow down” traffic with the result that businesses and residents simply fled to the 'burbs!

KCK lost the Electric Theatre, one of the best examples of the vaudeville and movie theatres ever built and the one of the first air conditioned threatres in the country, the Avenue Theatre, The Granada(Although it survives in a way.), many fine old buildings and houses and experienced an economic decline not reversed until the Kansas Speedway was built a few years ago.

Have at it, New Urbanists!

A good article on the subject may be found here:

http://www.spur.org/documents/040601_…

Thanks.

Marion.
11 January 2006
at 12:08 p.m.

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benm024 (Anonymous) says…

lv2ride

I think showing horses is great. My sister does, and she loves it. That's the difference between your elitism and my open-mindedness. I want everybody to have something to be happy about in this town. With you its your way or the highway…
11 January 2006
at 12:18 p.m.

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delta77 (Anonymous) says…

Looks nice. and I really like this casino idea…
11 January 2006
at 12:33 p.m.

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princess (Anonymous) says…

Jeeze. Why don't we just section off that part of town and rename it properly?

These are just off of the top of my head:

The Newer, Richer Lawrence.
Fancy Lawrence
Fancy Town USA
New Lawrence
Kiss our a*s North Lawrence
Shiny Lawrence
Lawrence2

Sorry, but this just angers me. I am always worried about keeping our downtown in good shape. Having the downtown area that we have is soooooo rare. We have to protect it damn it! I just see this as a big issue for that cause.

11 January 2006
at 12:39 p.m.

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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…

Rising property taxes and maintainence costs have effectively doomed Downtown.

I wish that the situation were different but it is what is is.

Years of neglect have led to skyrocketing rehab costs which can only be paid through higher rents which lead to higher property taxes which leads to higher rents…….

Couple these factors with Gawd-only-knows-what induced “visions” and the disaster unfoldeth.

Thanks.

Marion.
11 January 2006
at 12:41 p.m.

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pepper_bar (Anonymous) says…

but main street's still all cracked and broken!

sorry mom, the mob has spoken.

monoraaaaaail
monoraaaaaail
monoraaaaaail

that 2020 plan was too dowdy anyway. who needs planning when you can have… um… whatever this is supposed to be?
11 January 2006
at 12:45 p.m.

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gwennie81 (Anonymous) says…

#1 I think “community theater” is another term for movie/cinema complex, not an actual theater like Lied Center.
#2 I think the newspaper graphic is just crappy and not a great representation of the project. I'm sure the submitted plans are better than what the paper chooses to show the public.
11 January 2006
at 12:45 p.m.

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The_Original_Bob (Anonymous) says…

Princess - In regards to that part of town and your naming may I humbly suggest…

Joco East.
11 January 2006
at 12:49 p.m.

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princess (Anonymous) says…

Oh, good one Bob!
11 January 2006
at 12:58 p.m.

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lv2ride (Anonymous) says…

benm024…

Where did you get my way or the highway from? All I did is state my opinion of what I would like to see happen (develope) on the northwest side of town, and YOU got upset and started rattling off at the fast-paced mouth. What ever happened to freedom of speech, Even if YOU don't agree?!?
Could we please just agree to disagree?!? This is getting old, My opinion is not going to change and I bet yours won't either…Dead End. Like I said earlier…Have a Wonderful Day!
11 January 2006
at 1:15 p.m.

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prospector (Anonymous) says…

Princess and TOB

Joco West of West
Not Topeka East( would cut down on the riff-raff making it to the 'real' town)
It worked in “Blazing Saddles”.
Country Lanes( all lanes, no country)
11 January 2006
at 1:16 p.m.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…

Wouldn't that be Joco West, Bob?

I've always liked CandyLand.

11 January 2006
at 1:22 p.m.

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The_Original_Bob (Anonymous) says…

Oh shoot. Yeah, West. Blast'd brain.
11 January 2006
at 1:26 p.m.

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prospector (Anonymous) says…

Bozo

Did you see designs for the slides? Wow
11 January 2006
at 1:31 p.m.

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goingbackintime (Anonymous) says…

Any of you intelligent design-preaching Kansans who think growth and development is bad should get on your horse and cart and head off to Topeka. Now that is a no growth town! Growth is great for a community; in fact it's vital for a wonderful community where people want to live. Why do people live in Lawrence? Because it's a great place to live. And with that comes increased desirability to live in that area, which attracts residents. Also, it brings tax dollars to the education system so your underpaid schoolteachers can lecture your kids about how evolution never happened.

If you, as a homeowner, can tell me that you don't enjoy seeing your house appreciate in value, well then you are one of the very few.
11 January 2006
at 1:32 p.m.

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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…

“Posted by even_money (anonymous) on January 11, 2006 at 1:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I finally got the .pdf to open. Forget the LJW illustration. It is misleading.”

I had little trouble getting the .pdf to open and what are you talking about?

“Misleading”?

The LJW illustration is straight out of the pdf!

Who is trying to mislead who here?

Thanks.

Marion.
11 January 2006
at 1:32 p.m.

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plumwild (Anonymous) says…

We have a lot of town to maintain. We don't maintain it well at all.

Too much money and time wasted on trying to make the nice rain-absorbing and food-growing pastures and fields look like more California/Colorado suburbs. The runoff will require a multi-million dollar improvement to the entire watershed, the expense will be HUGE.

Treanor or Compton won't pay for it, either. You and I will, from our already under-scale pay.

I like Kansas, I like Kansas towns. Wide streets, good sidewalks, green space and trees. Business areas surrounded by residential areas where people can walk or ride affordable pub. transit and visit people they can trust and talk with.

For about 15 years, Lawrence's become more and more expensive and nouveau-Tacky. There's already plenty of this crap in JOCO and Orange County and New Jersey and boulder. i don't like lawrence becoming a JOCO armpit community and don't like the crowd it attracts.
11 January 2006
at 1:32 p.m.

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Horatio (Anonymous) says…

Hello,
I guess I need to pay attention to this. I live in Briarwood, backing up to Folks Rd. I think that there are only 2 houses closer to this develepment than mine……
At this point, I have more questions than answers.

Are buildings going to be at the edges of the property line, creating “inner” open space for their property, while adding nothing to the surrounding community, except traffic?

Are they going to have access to Folks Rd, a road that already has alot of traffic, and needs no more, especially from a commercial developement.

Done right, this could increase our property values, done wrong (with change in use after the project is done) could be a disaster.

I hope LJWorld will keep us up to date on these meetings so we can be involved
11 January 2006
at 1:32 p.m.

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LuckyNun (Tanya Spacek) says…

New Urbanism is all the rage on the West coast. The neighborhoods end up looking like Duloc (for those who haven't seen Shrek, imagine a theme park before the crowds show up), and the people who work in those businesses take the bus, because they can't afford the rent or mortgage in that area. Add some surly Free State High School kids to the mix, and…*shudder*.
11 January 2006
at 2:13 p.m.

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Hong_Kong_Phooey (Anonymous) says…

Man, you people amaze me. The same people that are saying, “Why did they vote for this crap?!” or “yet another intersection we'll have to avoid” are the same ones that accuse the city commission of being anti-growth. They just can't win with you guys. It's either going to be too corporate and commercial, too small-minded, or bad traffic planning. But then you'll turn around and say that we shouldn't be anti-growth.

Lawrence isn't THAT amazing of a city that you need to be worried about one neighborhood ruining the feel. It's a college town mostly filled with old, rundown houses that are overpriced. The local businesses are pretty hokey (and overpriced as well) and THAT is why the corporate chains can have such success here.

11 January 2006
at 2:23 p.m.

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Ember (Anonymous) says…

I've sat here and read a great number of reasons why this shouldn't go forward. Some I agree with, some I have reservations about, and some I flat out chuckle at.

Since it seems the majority wants nothing to do with this project, perhaps some idea for what could be built and/or landscaped in is in order.

I agree that we don't need another Wal-Mart. Super Target and the forth-coming Super Wal-Mart should be more than enough to sate our needs for the low to mid-range items a household needs. We have more than enough specialty stores for our other needs, although I am slightly suprised to not see an Ikia, or however you spell it, springing up.

Instead of just planting your feet and being stubborn, perhaps you, as a whole, should consider giving some alternatives to our glorious leaders. *pausing to wipe the sarcasm off the keyboard before it shorts out*

It's obvious enough what you don't want. What you do want, however, is exceptionally murky.
11 January 2006
at 2:51 p.m.

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benm024 (Anonymous) says…

I'm done arguing. City Commissioners approved it, its good for Lawrence so I'm happy. They have finally decided to approve instead of BAN something for once to make it seem like their job is important (i.e. fireworks, smoking, x-mas lights, ect.) Since we don't get to vote on anything its good the rulers of Lawrence make a good decision every now and again.
11 January 2006
at 2:56 p.m.

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Meatwad (Anonymous) says…

I'm all in favor of building something that would allow people to actually get out and WALK to the store/coffeeshop/restaurant/bar/movie theater/community theater/etc.
We NEED to exercise and get out from behind the wheel.
In a perfect world it could be like a mini-downtown (i.e. without looking like La Zona Rosa, which I call “Chainville”)….it would contain many locally owned businesses…. not the Walmart that LV2Ride would rather see. (people like that scare me and I wish they would move elsewhere–maybe to Chainville– and leave Lawrence alone).
11 January 2006
at 3:13 p.m.

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Meatwad (Anonymous) says…

Here is my experience of Zona Rosa…. We went on a Saturday night to find a place to eat, all the Fudruckers type places were full with a long wait. Wondering around, we found this Indian Restaurant and there was no wait. It was the ONE locally owned/non-chain business. The food and service was so good I thanked the owner and told him how we found the place. He was grateful and told us that the developers made it extremely difficult for him to open his restaurant there. They basically only wanted chains. I wish him the best and if you ever go to Zona Rosa…. find the Indian Restaurant. (The owner used to own Lawrence's India Palace… same great food!)
11 January 2006
at 3:17 p.m.

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The_Original_Bob (Anonymous) says…

“would allow people to actually get out and WALK to the store/coffeeshop/restaurant/bar/movie theater/community theater/etc. “ Meatwad.

Lawrence has that already. It's called Mass St. If you're saying that we need more than that, then ok, that's fine but Lawrence is not devoid of walkingtoshoppingcoffeedrinkingrestaurant places.

I agree on your walking issue but let's face reality. EM is right on the money. People aren't going to walk just because some blueprint says they will.
11 January 2006
at 3:23 p.m.

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Godot (Anonymous) says…

The community theatre (real, live theatre) piece of this has been on the drawing board, designed for that particular location, for a long time. What the JW isn't telling you is that this project has been planned in not-so-open meetings over a long period of time, and it was as good as a done deal before it even came before the public.

My question is, now that Compton and Brown have bought the Granada, they own most of the 1000 block of Mass, what's going to happen down there?
11 January 2006
at 3:28 p.m.

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Huckleberry (Anonymous) says…

That's right, people aren't going to walk just because it says so on a blueprint, but at least it is an option now. It's much more appealing than the same old miles and miles of cul-de-sacs, isn't it?
11 January 2006
at 3:59 p.m.

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The_Original_Bob (Anonymous) says…

Huckleberry - I'll give you that. If something new is coming in walking should be in mind. Much better than the blocks upon blocks of cookie cutter homes and cul-de-sacs.

11 January 2006
at 4:10 p.m.

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lunacydetector (Anonymous) says…

i wish the developer luck. the previous artist renderings definately did not tell the whole story.

after looking at the site plan drawn march 3, 2005, (too bad the drawings weren't released sooner), i have to conclude that the downtown will be safe. the retail buildings set VERY far from 6th street so they will not get traffic exposure at all plus the stores will be blocked by the banks/restaurants/gas station, and most likely will not generate much traffic - this is very important. i am very interested in who buys into locating there as i expect the rent to be very high. it is not a location, location, location type of site for a retailer. i am trying to figure where all the talk of walking came from. it looks as though the parking lot goes right up to the buildings.

zona rosa west lawrence it ain't. i stand corrected. lawrence factory outlet mall #3?,…… perhaps, but i might be wrong again, and i apologize for offending anyone by declaring it a zona rosa wanna be.
11 January 2006
at 4:22 p.m.

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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…

Meatwad wrote:

“In a perfect world it could be like a mini-downtown (i.e. without looking like La Zona Rosa, which I call “Chainville”)….it would contain many locally owned businesses…. ”

Meatwad, at the rental rates which this place will command the only businesses which will be able to afford to locate there will be the chains.

Ex: If you have 1500 sq ft at $34 per foot, that is $51,000.00 per year or $4250.00 per month.

A business faced with such a figure must gross anywhere from $12,000.00 to $20,000.00 per month just to pay the rent (At normal retail profit margins) and this is BEFORE taxes and insurance as most retail leases are “Triple Net”.

“Triple Net” means that you pay the taxes, insurance and everything else above the floor except for the roof covering.

These costs are incurred BEFORE product is purchased, employees are paid, equipment paid for or repaired, advertising dollars are spent, “profit” taken, etc.

This means that a business meeting the specs that I have listed which are very realistic, would have to gross somewhere in the neighbourhood of $50-60,000.00 a month, each month and every month just to break even!

To put it in simple terms……

….ain't gonna happen at Sixth Street!

Thanks.

Marion.
11 January 2006
at 5:20 p.m.

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dviper (Anonymous) says…

With all the hardscape at this site, they are going to need a large retention pond for storm water run-off. If the city uses the same standards that they used for Home Depot, the developer just lost a big chunk of land.
11 January 2006
at 5:24 p.m.

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ljreader (Anonymous) says…

I think Last Call should move out there, so the Topeka hiphoppers don't have to drive so far, and they'll have richer people to rob.
11 January 2006
at 5:25 p.m.

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dviper (Anonymous) says…

Marion - I know of at least one business across the street near the Hereford House that pays more than the $34 per Sq.Ft.

Anyway you slice it, this place will be expensive.
11 January 2006
at 7:22 p.m.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…

When petroleum hits $100 a barrel, lots of people will be walking, wishing that the T wasn't SRO all the time, and houses in the burbs that are blocks from anything will see their assessments drop relative to houses in walking distance of various amenities.
11 January 2006
at 7:42 p.m.

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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…

Bozo, you and your “peak oil” people, “The end of petroleum reserves are in sight!” folks, and $100 a barrell nutjobs forget that LONG before we have to deal with that sort of pricing……we will not be.

We will extract oil from shale, drill safely in places currently prohibited, recycle much more used lubricants into fuel, re-introduce the synthetic fuels of the 1930s-40s which can now be produced on large scale at less than the cost of petroleum based products, expand the use of hydrogen fuel cells and hybrids and motor on comfortably while you End Of The Worlders pedal around in the winter on recumbant bicycles.

Alternative fuel production which is currently the subject of every bit of crap put out by the oil companies and the Pseudo-liberal/Neo-socialists (“Alternative fuels cost more energy to produce than they provide!…” and such similar mantras.) will be maximised and we will be watching the Arabs sit around their shut-down pumping facilities wondering what hit them!

Solar fired alcohol stills take ALL the pain out of ethanol production but the Looney Environmental Whackos intentionally ignore the technology.

There are all sorts of alternative energy sources out there but it has not been cost-effective to use them or use has been propagandised into nothingness by both the Looney Left and the oil companies.

It just ain't gonna happen.

Thanks.

Marion.
11 January 2006
at 7:49 p.m.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…

You say you have a bridge you want to sell me, Marion?

11 January 2006
at 7:50 p.m.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…

Actually, if you don't mind, I'd prefer the snake oil, though, if you have any left.
11 January 2006
at 7:51 p.m.

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memoirs_of_a_sleepwalker (Anonymous) says…

Get off your computers. Go to work. Get lives.
11 January 2006
at 7:54 p.m.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…

I tried that life thing. It just didn't work out.
11 January 2006
at 9:59 p.m.

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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…

I am at work….why do think that I can spend so much time fooling around on the net?

The disaster of “peak oil” will happen very much like the Population Bomb of that now discredited darling of the Looney Left, Paul Erlich.

When faced with fuel shortages during WW II the Germans got synthetic fuel plants up and running in record times and so seriously was the situation taken by the Allies that the plants became primary targets for aerial bombing.

Technology accelerates with need and up to now there is no real incentive to adequetly develope alternative fuels and processes.

Thanks.

Marion.
11 January 2006
at 10:35 p.m.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…

To a certain extent, I agree with you, especially the lack of incentive. The political stranglehold that the oil companies have on this country pretty much ensures that there are none.

But one thing that makes it easy for them is that there is no technology that provides energy in the portable quantities that petroleum products do, and when you design a culture and its economy around the use (waste?) of that much energy, the only useful analogy is that of an addict.

But despite your assertions to the contrary, it is going to run out, and the war in Iraq is quite simply a desperate attempt to keep control of the world's largest reserves as China breathes down our necks.

You may be right that technology will provide an answer when it is absolutely necessary, but your faith in that “savior” is a tenet of your religion, not mine. There's nothing saying we can't or won't become just one more extinct species as a result of our generally clumsy use of technology.
11 January 2006
at 11:01 p.m.

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gccs14r (Anonymous) says…

Whoever thinks N. Lawrence should see further development should look at a topo map (aerial photos are good, too). Don't build structures in a flood plain. Nature always wins.
12 January 2006
at 12:04 a.m.

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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…

Not unless you want to have Swamp Thing as a regular guest or living in your back yard!

Thanks.

Marion.
13 January 2006
at 4:07 p.m.

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aquakej (Anonymous) says…

I think it looks fun! Downtown is so ghetto; perhaps this will be upscale and nice. And how many homeless people live in West Lawrence? Enough that you'd need to make a tent for them? haha. And FYI, I know the developers, and they hang out at La Prima Tazza. I don't think they've ever been to Starbucks. This place and Wal-Mart are complete opposites. Wal-Mart=ghetto, Bauer Farms=upscale.