Archive for Wednesday, February 8, 2006

Police pursue shooting evidence in nearby alley

February 8, 2006


As funeral arrangements were being made Tuesday for a man killed in a downtown shooting, police returned to the crime scene to investigate new gunshot evidence.

But at day's end, no arrests had been made in the early Sunday shooting that killed 46-year-old Robert Earl Williams and injured another man outside the Granada, 1020 Mass. The funeral director who is handling Williams' arrangements said his family had no comment.

"We really don't know what happened, and they don't know themselves," said Larry Johnson of Bowser-Johnson Funeral Chapel in Topeka. "They just know he was down there (in Lawrence). They hate to speculate right now, they're in so much pain."

Early Tuesday afternoon, officers returned to the alley behind the Granada after an employee of a nearby business reported finding a piece of gunshot evidence. But LPD officials said they would not comment about the report or release any new details of the investigation, which they previously said was focused on areas outside Lawrence.

Lawrence police officer Bruce Elliott leads crime scene detective Zach Thomas around the alleyway behind the Granada as part of the investigation of a shooting in early February of 2006 that left one man dead and another injured.

Lawrence police officer Bruce Elliott leads crime scene detective Zach Thomas around the alleyway behind the Granada as part of the investigation of a shooting in early February of 2006 that left one man dead and another injured.

Meanwhile, the Denver-based hip-hop record label that sponsored the concert before Sunday's shooting issued a news release blaming the shooting on a "lack of security" at the Granada. Representatives of Upset Records said the Granada had agreed to provide security to escort the artists out of the club and watch the door as people left the show.

But the club's owner, Mike Logan, called that claim outrageous, given that the shooting happened outside more than half an hour after the club closed.

"This is ridiculous to an extreme," Logan said. "This is fabricated. : That's nothing we agreed to or would ever agree to."

Police said the shooting happened shortly before 2:15 a.m. when a fight broke out among a group of about two dozen people who had gathered on the street to wait for performers and the announcement of an after-hours party.

Williams was across the street when he was shot. The other victim, a 22-year-old man, ran into the Granada after being shot and was flown by air ambulance to a Kansas City hospital.

He remained hospitalized Tuesday, but an update on his condition was not available.

Logan said there were no signs of trouble inside the club before it closed.

"We don't know what the altercation is over, and we have no idea what spurred this," he said. "It's not hip-hop or hip-hop shows. It's ignorant people who may or may not want to do something when they come to town. I don't feel like it's the music."

Logan said he was willing to work with city leaders to resolve concerns about public safety. The shooting came after police had seized handguns during six incidents downtown since the beginning of the year.

"We've made ourselves very available to the city and want to work with them and listen to them and be part of the answer to whatever this is," Logan said. "I'm interested in protecting downtown because that's what makes Lawrence. : We will take more time in considering events or acts to put on at the Granada after this event."


sweetpeagj 12 years, 4 months ago

I kknow that with most bands, they empty the bar at closing then allow the band to break down equipment and carry it out. This is what may have been going on when the shooting happened. It cab take up to an hour to break all equipment and sound down and loaded. Just a thought. Been with several bands during this process.

mztrendy 12 years, 4 months ago

kansas daughter, two granada employees were taking out the trash and let him back in.

gontek 12 years, 4 months ago

I think the bars close too early, if they stayed open untuil 3 or 4, security still might have been there.

Also I thnk Kansas should be conceal and carry. I think troublemakers from Missouri are more likely to draw weapons in Lawrence, where they know nobody else is carrying a weapon. If guns aren't off limits, then maybe others besides criminals and thugs would carry them and these situations would regulate themselves.

If I am in this situation outside a bar, I would like to be able to defend myself.

badger 12 years, 4 months ago

That's what earlier articles said, that he was let back in.

I'd like to note that truly class act by Upset Records, there (SARCASM) in trashing the Granada for not having security outside the club, on the street, ACROSS the street, half an hour after the show ended. Were they supposed to walk everyone home and tuck them in?

More to the point, if security had been present, and had waded into the fight, how likely is it that one of them would have been shot as well? In December 2004, there was plenty of security at the show in Ohio, and five people still ended up dead (one of them the head of the band's security team). Unarmed security can only go so far in preventing a fight when someone who obviously was expecting or looking for trouble was hanging around after the show with a GUN.

How about a sincere expression of condolence for those affected by this tragedy? Or perhaps a condemnation of those who commit violence against members of their own community and embattle the hip hop world even further? Oh, wait, that might affect the bottom line and admit that perhaps, maybe, the violence they sell and glorify isn't something they want to face on a non-theoretical level.

Even if I were inclined to be interested in any of their artists, this response would put me off buying anything from their label.

Kaw Pickinton 12 years, 4 months ago

Great idea gontek, if EVERYONE at the Granada had a gun that night things would have gone much better.


bugmenot 12 years, 4 months ago

gontek, i think you are mistaking the shooters for people who have brains. If you're going to shoot someone on mass over some kind of stupid argument then you wouldn't be worried over if you think other people had guns. Also, you're suggesting people carry guns to bars and get drunk??? Instead of fist fights which happen almost nightly at bars we'll have gun fight. Alcohol and guns should never mix together.

feeble 12 years, 4 months ago

Of course, if you shoot someone after going through the process to obtain a permit to conceal and carry, which generally involves many hours of firearms classes/training, you very well could find yourself facing a wrongfull death suit or even a manslaughter charge.

Last time I bothered to check, lawrence was below the national average for violent crime. In my mind, the amount of petty theft, larceny and robbery in this town is far more cause for alarm.

QB1976 12 years, 4 months ago

I am from Topeka and have always loved Lawrence, but after reading what has been a attack on the Topeka residents, it is sad to say that I will no longer be visiting a town that Topeka residents are no longer welcomed.

It is sad to see that no one is looking at the fact a man is dead and another man was hurt. I do not understand how people in this day and age are still trying to point the fingers at music and a whole community. The only person I feel should be at blame would be the person who pulled the trigger.

After reading some of these post and also reading an article in the local Topeka paper it seems to me that people are looking for a scape goat and have found one. You have a bar owner saying he will no longer welcome people from Topeka, you have a record label blaming the venu, you have people blaming hip hop, you have people blaming the police. What about blaming the man who pulled the trigger?

I love Lawrence and I love Topeka but if the people of Lawrence do not want my kind there then I will have to spend my free time and money elsewhere.

billybeanbag 12 years, 4 months ago


What? You can't seriously believe Topekan's were attacked in the article and not welcome anymore, can you?

Look, it's a correllation, just because a few violent incidents in town happen to trace back to Top City Perpetrators, doesn't mean the towns hate each other.

I don't want to place blame or make people feel bad, I just think everyone wants to know what happened and how it can be avoided.

QB1976 12 years, 4 months ago


The article in today's Topeka Capital Journal title 'Owner of bar blames Topeka'

Mike Elwell owner of Abe & Jake's

Read the article and also go back and read some of the articles in the last few days from LJW and you will see that between his comments and the comments that have been posted.

I do understand where you are coming from, but please do understand that I do not feel bad towards anyone in Lawrence I have just been reading and it just brakes my heart to hear how people are trying to place blame on others.

I do understand that the people in Lawrence are not use to what happened that night, but speaking for just myself not all of Topeka, I am not use to hearing about people getting shot in our local bars either. I do hope they find the person who did this and but him or her in jail.

bearded_gnome 12 years, 4 months ago

Logan doesn't want to blame the music [which attracts the thug culture} or the acts...yet one PD comment implied the acts broght this dispute into town with them... oh, and the gunshot evidence they found, maybe its left over from QUANTRILL'S RAID!

Hong_Kong_Phooey 12 years, 4 months ago

QB & Honeydew: If your feelings are that easily insulted, don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'.

mssking1 12 years, 4 months ago

the comment from former judge Mike Elwell in the TCJ certainly did say he does not welcome people from Topeka and KC and that is just WRONG---I'm not a fan of hip-hop but I do not believe that hip-hop, movies or lyrics purchased the gun, loaded it, got it out and pulled the trigger---that was a human that did that--what was he rapping as he pulled the trigger??? How can anyone or anything be blamed but the person who pulled the trigger...

Hong_Kong_Phooey 12 years, 4 months ago

Gontek: So your theory is that the bars should stay open until 3 or 4 in the morning? Maybe that would have prevented this? Yeah, that'll work. If we keep the bars open that late people will still leave at 2am so that every last straggler can be walked out. Nobody will stay and hang out past 3 or 4. Gosh, that's an amazing idea! Revolutionary!

honeydew785 12 years, 4 months ago

Sure is funy that I haven't posted anything in a few days, but my name is still in your mouth...hum...sounds like a trend of yours, huh? Little childish.

yeah_right 12 years, 4 months ago

Topeka resident here, and former Lawrence resident. I am appalled at Elwell's comments in TCJ today. I have friends who live in Lawrence and every once in a while I like to visit and go out with them. Too bad I won't be welcome at Abe & Jakes. It's funny, I used to go out all the time in Lawrence when I lived there and the only violent altercation that I got in was with a born & raised Lawrence person who jumped me for absolutely no reason. I had never even seen her before. Oh well, I'll just keep my money in my community.

JimmyJoeBob 12 years, 4 months ago

I am glad you are staying out of Lawrence QB. Do you know what the following incidents have in common?

Langston's Homicide Brother's Shooting Quincey Sanders Homicide Granada Homicide Lee Homicide And numerous other robberies etc.

Answer: All the suspects came from T-Town

Staci Dark Simpson 12 years, 4 months ago

I don't think anyone is insinuating that Topeka is a bad town, it just has a high crime rate for a town of its size. That doesn't mean everyone there is bad. But for years now there has been a lot of gang activity and violence for a town that size. When I was a child I lived in Lecompton and about once a year a body or two were found in the country around Lecompton. It was like Topekas dumping grounds for the dead. That isn't a joke, I know a handful of people that found these bodies. I think that criminals from other towns just need to STAY HOME!!!!

QB1976 12 years, 4 months ago


You know what those incidents have in common?

Answer: Dumb people with guns

It has nothing to do with Topeka.

honeydew785 12 years, 4 months ago


Not trying to be funny or anything, but a radio station in Kansas City just advertised that a big named hip-hop artist from NYC will be performing at Last Call in a few weeks. My questions are: If there is no violence, how silly will all the accuasations be that hip-hop is bad (afterall there is more to hip-hop than you may realize)?


If there is violence, will it be Topeka's fault?

JimmyJoeBob 12 years, 4 months ago

Sure it does didn't you read my post they all came from Topeka. Don't write in saying you are going to punish all of us in Lawrence by withholding your dollars and presence. Then expect us to start crying about it stay the heck out of Lawrence. I don't think anyone will care. Boo Hoo

QB1976 12 years, 4 months ago

Well how about this

Why don't you come to Topeka and meet the people instead of acting like Mr. Elwell and stating that all people here are thugs. I mean I have seen my share of thugs from Lawrence and I have never stated that I thought everyone from Lawrence were thugs nor trash.

JimmyJoeBob 12 years, 4 months ago

To answer your question Honey, If it is a Topekan who againg takes someone's life it will be Topeka's fault.

coach 12 years, 4 months ago

Jimmy Joe Bob

You forgot to mention about 70% of all west lawrence auto burglaries solved. (Suspects from Topeka)

You are right about the other stuff too. Well done.

JimmyJoeBob 12 years, 4 months ago

I didn's say all Topekan's are thugs. But you have to admit that alot of Violent Topekan's end up in Lawrence Killing people or shooting it up. You are the one crying on this site about how you are not welcome here and are going to punish us by not coming to Lawrence. Don't expect Lawrencian's to beg you to come here. There is an unusally high number of Topekan's coming here acting up. To ignore this would be dumb on our part. I will go as far as to say some of the problem are our bar owners catering to this type of individual. I have been to your town and I don't care for it.

honeydew785 12 years, 4 months ago

Well, sir (JimmyBob) It has been stated that it was not a Topekan that fired the shot (they are going out of state with the leads) and is was not a Topekan that contacted the Granda to throw the show (denver based), but we still got a bad rap because it was a Topekan that pasted. Not trying to be funny, but those are the facts. I stopped worring about this mess, because people are going to be people. Do you realize that the man that was killed only moved back to Topeka to care for his elderly mother who had recently had surgery?

Senseless is senseless, and that's what all of this is: From the shooting to the judgemental state that has happen since then.

Confrontation 12 years, 4 months ago

Okay, some bar owners don't want Topekans coming here. Well, I just don't want to hear them cry and moan and blame the smoking ban for a lack of income. People from Lawrence complain about a lack of money going into the downtown, and now they want to cut off another funding source. I do not want people coming from any town with guns under their jackets. However, most people coming into Lawrence aren't carrying guns or planning to be violent. Add some more metal detectors or pat-downs, and stop blaming Topeka.

JimmyJoeBob 12 years, 4 months ago

Hate to burst you bubble HD. Did you know that the Victim grew up in Topeka and spent the majority of his live in Topeka. And the Denver based Hip Hop company was started by a Topekan who just moved to that area. And you still haven't responded to the other killings I have mentioned

honeydew785 12 years, 4 months ago

JimmyJoeBob: Yes I knew he was raised in Topeka, since I have known him before my teenage years and I am a friendly acquaintance to his eldest daughter.

The other murders, I did not address them, but I had an injuried half-brother from Brother's and I feared for my life when I was at Langston's that night (10 years ago). If those are the only murders your town has ever had considered yourself truly blessed.

QB1976 12 years, 4 months ago

So JimmyJoeBob are you telling me that all the murders and all the auto thefts that have happened in Lawrence are done by people from Topeka?

If so then how about blocking all exits into Lawrence. Would that make your feel better?

Richard Heckler 12 years, 4 months ago

This music has a pattern around the country of drawing violent people who knows why. Mr. Logan knows this as he is not a stupid person. The question is why continue to book this music knowing full well the potential for violence. If this type of concert requires an enormous amount of security to cope with potential violence what's the point?

Maybe Doug Compton and Larry Brown could consider putting some real money into the Granada and create a dinner club? Bring in Tony Bennett, Smashing Pumpkins, Peter,Paul and Mary, Winston Marcelis,Natalie Cole,k.d.lang,B.B. King, Diana Krall, Stevie Wonder or Kay Starr.

Allow Mike Logan to continue managing the operation

It is impossible and not fair to hold Mike Logan responsible for the shooting or other violents acts patrons bring with them.

I would not consider putting my life on the line to see a hip hop concert. I'd have to do it at home.

glockenspiel 12 years, 4 months ago

Kind of off-topic, but Im kinda ticked that a rock band I wouldn't mind seeing is playing in KC and in Manhatten, but bypassing Lawrence. Is it just me or has the music scene in Lawrence became a turd lately. Maybe hip hop is the only kind of music venues can bring into this town anymore.

I think Lawrence is paying a dear price for the Lazer format change so many years ago. I think we are stuck with hip-hop and the entourage that follows it.

Confrontation 12 years, 4 months ago

merrill: Why get rid of a type of music that has a "potential" for violence? Shouldn't this include other types of music, like country or rock? We all know that we want to kick something when we hear the horrible wales of Tony Bennett. Too many old people on here like to stereotype anything that didn't play out in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. Go back to your record player and enjoy your horribly boring white people music. We all know the real truth behing most of these posts: Lawrence wants to remain as white as possible.

yeah_right 12 years, 4 months ago

Yo, JimmyJoeBob, so what if the VICTIM grew up in Topeka. He didn't shoot anyone, why should it matter where he is from?

As far as the other shootings you are referring to, it is pretty easy to make Topeka look bad when you only post the shootings/murders that have involved Topeka people. How about making a list of ALL of the shootings/murders that involve Topeka people. I think that you will find that the percentage of ones involving Topekans is rather small.

yeah_right 12 years, 4 months ago

I really messed up in my post...I meant to say to make a list of all of the shootings/murders that have occured in Lawrence within the last 10 years. I think that you will find that the percentage of ones involving Topekans is rather small.

Sorry for the confusion.

glockenspiel 12 years, 4 months ago

How about making a list of ALL of the shootings/murders that involve Topeka people. I think that you will find that the percentage of ones involving Topekans is rather small.

Um...I think you'll find the percentage of ones involving topekans on that list quite high...

yeah_right 12 years, 4 months ago

You almost made me look really stupid...whew.

RonBurgandy 12 years, 4 months ago

I love the poor me Topekans that keep saying they no longer feel welcome. Why do you think people keep saying negative stuff about topeka? Because it is wife lived there and she is probably the worst when it comes to topeka bashing.

QB1976 12 years, 4 months ago

So I guess your wife is a thug and she has a gun and goes around shooting people?

Your wife has that right to bash Topeka cause she lived here. And I hope she isn't bashing the people of Topeka, I hope she is just stating how boring Topeka is.

RonBurgandy 12 years, 4 months ago

QB1976...exactly, She doesn't bash the people, on the place.

...I do hate it when she twirls that gun around me though...

devilfish 12 years, 4 months ago

Six homicides in Lawrence in 2005 and all were committed by residents of Lawrence. Despite being larger Topeka had only 7 homicides.

gontek 12 years, 4 months ago

seriously floks, Has anyone wached BET the last couple of nights? Biggie vs Tupac, Easy E vs Dr Dre, Canabis vs LL cool J, B Real vs Ice Cube, on an on it goes. When the music is from the street, sometimes you can't separate the street from teh music. Many times near rioting nas resulted in LA due to artist beefs with one another. Unless the artists work these things out, often violence results.

I know it sounds crazy, but in New Orleans bars stay open all night, Westport until 3 am - more money for the bar owners!. I really do believe in conceal and carry - but not everyone should carry a gun. However it should not be a crime for my grandmother to carry a gun in her purse, or my wife or sister. They are the ones who need them.

If only criminals have guns, then they win.

And it is too bad that Topeka was brought into this, I don;t believe anything is going on in demographically Topeka that is not going in in Johnson County or Omaha or anywhere else in the central USA. I balme it on Missouri.

RonBurgandy 12 years, 4 months ago

meant "only the place"

sorry everyone...

RonBurgandy 12 years, 4 months ago

Holy crap, I can't believe that people actually think it would be a good idea to allow concealed weapons. I think my mind is going to explode...

badger 12 years, 4 months ago

gontek -

In most states that have concealed carry laws, it's a felony to have guns on any premise where alcohol is sold.

In the light of that, the relevance of your argument is a little lost on me. How could concealed carry possibly have altered this situation in any sort of material way? Are you saying that if Kansans were able to carry concealed weapons, it's a realistic expectation that there would have been a fortuitously armed bystander, en route from somewhere no alcohol is sold to somewhere no alcohol is sold (at 2 am), who would have turned up on the scene just in time to stop someone from being shot?

Or are you just advocating for concealed carry because a street shooting is a handy event to hang a gun lobby hat on and advocate that if more people were armed, there'd be less crime?

gontek 12 years, 4 months ago

Lots of people do, Kansas is one of 4 states that denies the CCW right, and it is under review right now. The strange thing is I live in lawrence and I think this way. I went to KU too. Holy crap, I am not totally brainwashed!

JimmyJoeBob 12 years, 4 months ago

QB &HD I didn't mention the Auto thefts that was another concerned citizen. I am saying for the amount of murders committed in Lawrence a disproportionate amount are caused by Topeka. Yes we are lucky not to have as many homicides as you in Topeka. I know you meant that as a slam. I guess we are some kind of small hick town, without as many homicides as Topeka. We like it that way

yeah_right 12 years, 4 months ago

JJB - Did you read the post by devilfish?

bearded_gnome 12 years, 4 months ago

okay, Ron, so is your wife: Mandy burgandy? or pistol-handy burgandy? or, dandy burgandy? or finally? Brandy burgandy? sorry, just my warped mind.

for not being topeka a lot of crimde here is committed by topekans. how 'bout that? true.
now, violence at a Natalie Cole comparison...different crowd.
and that's the real issue.

now, no word yet, was that gunshot evidence from Quantrill's raid?

JimmyJoeBob 12 years, 4 months ago

I believe the count is wrong, need names like I produced. The real question is how many homicide has Topeka had commited by a person from Lawrence.

gontek 12 years, 4 months ago

I think we Lawrencians are usually too stoned out of our gourds to drive to Topeka and commit crimes.

JimmyJoeBob 12 years, 4 months ago

I know the man arrested for the Lafferty case was from Paola. So there is one flaw in DF statement would like to hear the rest

Richard Heckler 12 years, 4 months ago

merrill: Why get rid of a type of music that has a "potential" for violence?

Like or not these concerts seem to attract violence consistently. As I said who knows why?

Is hip hop the only "black music" on the planet? Do hip hop concerts attract other races such as white,latino,asian etc.? You bet. Music happens to cross racial lines successfully. Motown was around as we all know long before hip hop and did not draw violence so far as I know. Motown music is still some of the best music on the planet. However so is Tony Bennett. Different strokes for different folks.

Why some individuals have chosen hip hop concerts as their turf for violence is beyond explanation. Certainly is not supported by the black community no way jose.

Our son happens to enjoy hip hop and attends concerts. Some of the music he likes I do not yet my and I wife do pick up on new artists through him that we enjoy. It's good he's around.

JimmyJoeBob 12 years, 4 months ago

Merrill have you ever listened to the lyrics of these Hip Hop songs. If so you would have your explanation.

JimmyJoeBob 12 years, 4 months ago

Merrill I find you to be a bit racist. If the music is attacked you immediately assume people on this post are anti-black. There are a lot of white rappers who have just as violent lyrics as black rappers. You need to ask your self why you automatically think about blacks when the word hip hop is used. Shame on you!

formerlyKS 12 years, 4 months ago

Like I've always said...there has been this nice war between Lawrence and Topeka the last ten or so years. People in Lawrence want greater respect because their town is growing (or at least had been until recently, according to the Census) and they are tired of being Topeka's bedroom community and living in Topeka's and KC's shadow. Topeka didn't make you that way...people forget that a large portion of Lawrence's "wealth" comes from Topeka's jobs. State department supervisors (like Mike Hayden), KS Supreme court justices, perhaps 1/3 of all management at Payless and Security in Lawrence and sponge off of Topeka's economic benefit.

When I was at KU, I was always given a cold shoulder or look of distrust because I hailed from Topeka. But, despite my "inferior" upbringing, I managed to graduate in 4 years as Highest Distinction in the physical sciences from KU and did it without the "superior" JOCO education. Heck, most of those people already came in with 2 years of AP credits and were still lounging around well after I got my BS! The point is, although Topeka has a lot of problems, it is ridiculous to label everyone from the community as a gunslinger...I would have expected far more from the "accepting" folks of Lawrence.

My suggestion to Topekans is to go to Manhattan instead if you want college nightlife. Maybe Lawrence residents need another reminder (other than Topeka's jobs) as to the economic clout that Topeka provides. Lawrence is a nice town, but I would spend the $$ where it is appreciated. And, PS, although I don't live in Kansas anymore, I've never owned or used a gun.

JimmyJoeBob 12 years, 4 months ago

I agree go to Manhattan we don't need ya. THe larges industry for Lawrence is KU. Ask your self why all those people work in Topeka and reside in Lawrence

JimmyJoeBob 12 years, 4 months ago

BTW did you know Aggieville bars have a much higher entry fee into for non K-State students. It has been that way for over 25 years. I used to go there when I was stationed at Ft. Riley. It is to keep the riff raff out

formerlyKS 12 years, 4 months ago


Isn't KU funded by the state, which is headquartered in Topeka?

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