Archive for Monday, February 6, 2006

1 killed, 1 injured in shooting outside downtown nightclub

February 6, 2006


Gunfire erupted after a hip-hop show in downtown Lawrence early Sunday morning, killing one person and sending another by air ambulance to a Kansas City hospital in critical condition.

The shooting happened just after 2 a.m. Sunday, when bullets hit and killed Robert Earl Williams, 46, across the street from the Granada, 1020 Mass.

Another victim, a 22-year-old man, also was hit by bullets near the club. He was flown by helicopter to a Kansas City hospital in critical condition.

Neither of the victims were from Lawrence, Lawrence Police Capt. David L. Cobb said in a statement. Police would not comment further Sunday on any details of the shooting. A press conference was scheduled for 11 a.m. today.

Police blocked off a large portion of the block while they investigated the shooting Sunday morning. Police said witnesses had identified a suspect in the shooting.

According to witnesses and official statements, a black male in a puffy jacket fired the shots from a handgun just after 2 a.m. Sunday, hitting the two men, before speeding away in a tan, 1990s General Motors vehicle.

The scene on the street was chaotic immediately after the shooting, several witnesses said. People ducked and walked low. In the 900 block of Massachusetts Street, bar customers scrambled back inside bars, which were closing at the time, after hearing the shots.

Police and ambulances swarmed the 1000 block of Massachusetts Street. In establishments that were still open, customers scrambled to windows to watch.

"It was really confusing," witness Katie Garman, a Kansas University student who was in the Pita Pit, 1011 Mass., said. "No one knew what was going on."

While taking out trash after the show, Granada employees saw the 22-year-old victim, bloody, running through the alley just east of Massachusetts Street.

They let him inside the club through the back door and attempted to help him.

Soon after, police came into the bar and found the man critically wounded, and within the hour had him flown by helicopter to a Kansas City hospital. Police did not identify the hospital.

On the west side of Massachusetts Street, Steven Bowen heard the shots and watched Williams drop face-first into the street.

Bowen rushed over to him, flipped him over and, with the help of a police officer, began performing CPR.

"I pushed down on his chest to get him breathing," said Bowen, who still had blood on his hands at the time of the interview.

By the time an ambulance arrived, Williams had a slight pulse and was breathing, Bowen said. But sometime between then and his arrival at Lawrence Memorial Hospital, Williams' breath stopped. He was pronounced dead on arrival.

The Show

The violence began after a hip-hop show at the Granada featuring rappers from Colorado, Kansas and Missouri.

The show was an early date on a Midwest tour by artists from the Colorado-based hip-hop label Upset Records.

The Granada

1020 Mass., Lawrence


An Upset Records artist, Doe, is from Topeka and spent time over the weekend meeting old friends and promoting the tour at a Topeka-area record store.

Granada owner Mike Logan said in a statement Sunday that bar employees didn't know whether the people involved in the shooting had been inside the bar or were lingering outside during the show.

He said that he was committed to helping police in the investigation.

Lawrence police said further details about the killing would be available at a press briefing today.

Local reaction

The outburst of violence Sunday morning surprised City Commissioner Mike Rundle.

Rundle denounced violence in general, but said that the talk of other violent incidents around town concerned him, including the handguns confiscated from cars outside of a downtown club last week.

"We need to make that problem not a problem," Rundle said.

City Commissioner Mike Amyx has heard the rumblings as well. He said he didn't know about race or music being an issue, but the crime certainly caught his attention.

All of the questions - the guns, the violence, the worry some residents feel - need to be answered, and fast, Amyx said.

"We're going to have to address this," he said, "figure out what's really going on."

Staff writer Natalie Flanzer contributed to this report.


lunacydetector 12 years, 4 months ago

i have a feeling that lawrence will try to ban handguns......

lawrence needs to hire more police or security and the downtown merchants need to pay their fair share of its costs. downtown is the most taxpayer subsidized area in town. the buck needs to stop somewhere and this is the perfect time. then they can start paying for the upkeep and cleaning, the promotion, the rented "art" displays, the empty parking garage, and the arts center.

b_asinbeer 12 years, 4 months ago

lunacy--I think the arts center is a great place....and once you do go see it, then you can comment on it. Has great drawings, shows, musical talent contests. Just what a city our size needs.

As for the shooting. It's a shame. What is our city coming to? I mean fights at bars a common thing that happen once or twice a month at least at every place, but there is no excuse for killing someone. None.

Shardwurm 12 years, 4 months ago

Wow. Someone was gunned down in cold blood on the streets of Lawrence and this is what you post?!?

What a pathetic town this has become.

My condolences to the family of the dead man and I hope the young man in the hospital pulls through.

Janis Pool 12 years, 4 months ago

I agree. How sad fo the families and friends to lose a loved one. However I also agree that our police force is far too small for our growing needs.

Mike Curtis 12 years, 4 months ago

What else would you expect from a hiphop crowd? Go ahead and host some more of this "entertainment". In the mean time, feel free to blame the town, the commisioners, the police, the weather....

neopolss 12 years, 4 months ago

Our police force isn't far too small - they're too far away, tending to unimportant crimes. Trying to bust pot smokers, noisy parties, and cigerette smokers in bars, instead of walking patrols and establishing a presence. We've placed too many other ordinances on their plate and occupied their time with these BS issues that we could really handle ourselves.

That sad, Lawrence needs to realize it is NOT a small, sleepy little town anymore. It's going to attract a lot of unwanted criminal activity from Topeka and KC. 10 years of consistant car burglaries should tell us that much.

blessed3x 12 years, 4 months ago

Seriously, are you really surprised? The news is filled with shootings at hip-hop events. This isn't entertainment or even expression, it's incitement. Defend it all you want, but hip-hop spouts, preaches and breeds violence.

blessed3x 12 years, 4 months ago

Probably the East Lawrence rappers vs. the West Lawrence rappers.

bankboy119 12 years, 4 months ago

It was actually probably Topeka vs Kansas City.

spikey_mcmarbles 12 years, 4 months ago

If you really want to see something done, call your city commissioners, and the mayor, and tell them you want a stronger police presence downtown in the evenings. Things won't get done unless the citizens put some heat on the elected city government.

DaREEKKU 12 years, 4 months ago

As a young generation that was a product of Columbine, I feel I need to address all of the posts which blame the music. They did the EXACT same thing with Marilyn Manson and the sort. STOP BLAMING THE MUSIC! Blame the PERSON! Also....another solution? Ban cars from the Mass Street area. That might address the so-called "empty garage" problem, and would prevent people who commit crimes from escaping so quickly. It would also add ambiance to the area and would create a more controllable environment. Yes, I do hope they DO ban handguns, and okay....I feel that some people are getting a LITTLE bit carried away with this here. Yes, this was a horrible thing to happen and my condolences go out to that person injured and the family of the one that was killed....but instead of saying "oh lawdy! It's the end of the world Earl!" get up and DO something about it like vote maybe? We can make a difference, and I'm positive that the Great Liberal Melting Pot of Lawrence with such a wonderful group of people living here will come up with a solution. Lawrence is a great town for students, families, and just people in general because unlike the current administration we actually adress social and domestic issues like these thank your local Democrat.

coach 12 years, 4 months ago

By the national average Lawrence has a significant smaller Police Force when compared to the number of residents. Facts show they need more officers. The flood of cell phones has them responding to a plethera of calls for everything. I had my car broken into and had a really nice officer take my report. He worked on the case until it was solved, although it took awhile. He advsied that he was trying to follow up on multiple cases at the same time as well as taking more calls and reports everyday. He told me to be patient, but he would do his best. Well he came through and they burlgar went to jail. If we had more officers more crime would be solved, more presence would be seen and crime would ultimately go down.

spikey_mcmarbles 12 years, 4 months ago

My bad; I forgot the phone numbers:

Mayor: Boog Highberger - 843-0995 Vice-Mayor: Mike Amyx - 843-3089 Commissioner: Sue Hack - 842-6608 Commissioner: Mike Rundle - 841-7817 Commissioner: David Schauner - 842-7459

sonny 12 years, 4 months ago

This is an cry out fro help and also a outrage. I mean this city let's us do are music and says don't start nothing and were respectful and we don't. But then these guys from Topeka and Kansas City do. They like to kill each other over money, drugs and stuff they say about each other on record. That a load crap. I myself a Lawrence native (originlly from STL) do hiphop music in this town and I have for years, we have done countless shows in the down town district and beyond plus we have rocked the Granada many of times opening up for major act like Tech Nine. If we can keep a cool head and never have a fight so can they. It's a problem with acts form other places, I don't want no one to judge Lawrence rappers or all the city rappers but most of the problem comes from out of towners. I love performing and doing music but I also love when we love and respect each other not this. I hope we all can get pass this and know most of us are not like this.Were all like this. Sorry for the familes lost and the one who was injured they are in my prayers.

yeah_right 12 years, 4 months ago

There have been hip hop concerts in Lawrence for years and an isolated amount of violence to go with them. What happened this weekend is not the norm in Lawrence for hip hop concerts and/or bars who play hip hop. It should not have happened, but no murder should. Remember the murder by the K-State professor that happened here? Was he possessed by hip hop? What about Jason Dillon who killed the 3 year old girl? There was the dad who killed his 5 month old by child abuse recently in Lawrence. The apartment fire caused by arson. Does Boardwalk Apartments host Hip Hop parties and concerts? The point is there has been a handfull of murders in Lawrence within the past few years and one can be linked to a hip hop party. All kinds of people of all kinds of backgrounds do really terrible things that the majority of people cannot fathom. The people are the problem, not the music!

Reader 12 years, 4 months ago

After Reading This Story: It Was Only A Matter Of Time, (And In Time It'll Happpen Again)! What A Shame, And How Sad. My Thoughts Go Out To The Families. I For One, Would Like To See The Bar To Be Shut Down, And Denial Of Lease Renewal. And The "Granada" Be Taken Back, To Beautiful And Elegant Theater It Once Was. What A Waste Of A Once "Beautiful Downtown Landmark"! It's Time To "Take Back The Downtown" That It Used To Be!

sonny 12 years, 4 months ago

See you guys are fuled by hate post something positive man. anyway I do hip hop as I said before I'm not a viloent person. Plus what's this "I want it to go back to the little theatre it was" yeah right. Push all the hip hoping minorites out and you got your white surburben down down hot spot of a theathe again thanks for letting me know some of yall have not over come *hit and you main foucus is to blaim ohters. What a shame. YOUr comment make me sick.

Linda Aikins 12 years, 4 months ago

Not the fault of the music.

Anyone want to comment on the policeman and his dog sitting outside Last Call now? Maybe that isn't such a bad thing?

DaREEKKU 12 years, 4 months ago

What is this!?! I mean COMMON! Bankboy.....I don't even know where to start on your ignorance, you are putting ALL of hip hop music into once category which simply can't be done. In EVERY genre of music there is crap and usueless dribble. Kpippen33....thou makest me vomit, while we are at expanding the level at which our civil rights can be demolished why not ban people like you from the city?

bankboy119 12 years, 4 months ago

I know not all of it is like that. It was a pretty good example...and the first part is from Tech N9NE.

Janet Lowther 12 years, 4 months ago

I could have sworn this sort of thing didn't happen back when bars had to close at midnight: Perhaps people coming out of bars at 2:00 AM feel that they are out of the public view due to the lateness of the hour and therefore feel more free to act out of impulse.

Of course the lack of legal concealed carry in Kansas allows those who would commit acts of violence be reasonably certain they will not experience return fire.

CanadianPassport 12 years, 4 months ago

Keep in mind that Lawrence hiphop artists don't bring this kind of crime to their shows. But, let's be real here: we should beg Logan to be more discriminating about the entertainment he books. Here's a hint: you will find pot at Reggae shows, you will find X at raves, you will find Nazi's at neo-Nazi concerts. And, you will find guns where you have thug rap shows. Let's call it musical profiling. I don't think that's illegal yet. Here's a lyrical sampling from Doe: " I'm a hustla' n!@, start $h!t in the club and straight rush a n!@ " --- Hmm, "start $h!t in the club"? Looks like somebody did. You can find him on MySpace (check it out, it's terrible:, where he brags about dealing coke, crack, carrying a gun, and mentions several times that he is "balling out of control." Word. He also mentions in one track that he can't mention any more about what he does in his free time because the police have a rap task force. Blame the music? F no. I blame the idiots who listen to the music. And you want to know how to keep them away? Don't bring the music to our clubs.

Rossp 12 years, 4 months ago

Was anything even mentioned about Last Call kpippen33? NO..........

Everyone........hasn't "HIP-HOP" night been going on at these places for quite sometime now and you all are taking this all out of proportion now that something bad has happened. I don't think it's the places or the music. I think it's the amount of drinks these people drink. Shouldn't there be a limit on how many drinks people can buy/drink at these shows atleast?

Quit bit***n about Last Call. We are reading about the GRANADA............

Jd Finch 12 years, 4 months ago

I think the idea of making Mass St. between 6th and 12th a pedestrian zone is excellent and could very well help reduce violence (or at least aid police in catching the offenders).

This was an isolated incident - otherwise it wouldn't elicit the response that it has - and does not signify an increase in violence in Lawrence. For all the folks who point to any "trends" or are quick to scream about a falling sky, bear in mind that 143 years ago, 143 men were killed (how's that for numerical symmetry) in downtown Lawrence.

anggrn99 12 years, 4 months ago

kpippen33, I think you are right! They do need to shut Last Call down and the Granasty! I for one dont like what has become of Downtown Lawrence on Saturday nights. Look at the gas stations that have to close early because of the theft that goes on after Last Call closes, and all of the fights that go on, I am not saying I dont like hip-hop, but Last Call has attracted alot of "THUGS" from all over. And what amazes me is that you have the cop and the dog outside, but you still have people getting high in the club and smoking in there. In all the time I have personally been in there, I have not seen 1 cop go in there and bust them for it. I just think they need to shut them bars down and bring Lawrence back the way it was. Nothing will be done if we the people dont do nothing about it. I truely am sorry for the 2 people that were shot.

Rossp 12 years, 4 months ago

Country music has shake your ass songs too........

redmorgan 12 years, 4 months ago

Wow, what a bummer. I have lived here for only about 4 years now, but I just absolutely love this town and this community-and I'm a Republican! I love Mass St., the Honk-for-Hemp guy, the farmers' market, the ecclectic shops, the old houses-all of it! I have always felt safe here, and I'm really disappointed this happened-and I'm sure it was over something stupid and pointless. I sure hope this is just an isolated incident. And ditto to all of you who made the comment about you hope those who were worried about Lawrence being viewed as a little hick town are happy now...

redfred 12 years, 4 months ago

neo- the police are not too far away. There was an officer in the area. He was there giving first aid right after the victim hit the ground. However, it is obvious that a police presence is not enough to stop violence in the atmospher that the Granada generates.

bankboy119 12 years, 4 months ago

Oh I know Bob. I just love how the music is perfectly fine and it in no way influences how you act at all. If you take a look at the studies that have been done music does influence people a great deal. That's not to say that every person who listens to a county song, or a rap song, or a rock song about killing some one will do it but the music does have an influence on your actions. It's the same thing by what you watch, it does influence you one way or another. Take a look at the serial killers, over 90% have been linked to pornography. Coinicidence...don't think so.

By the way, let me leave you a message from my homie 50.

It's a fact homie, eagles don't fly in flocks But the eagles I got own sixteen shots Like beefin', homie I ain't sayin' a word I'll run up on your punk @ss squeezing the bird Now what New York ni know about country grammar Not much, but we know how to bang them hammers When I pull out that thing, you better break yourself Or win a trip to ICU, and you can take yourself If you lucky mtherfer, I'm solider I told ya Push ya sht back, put my knife through ya six pack Gat bust, adrenaline rush, blowin' the dust Five point O, burnin' the cluth, while I'm burnin' the dutch You thought them other ni* was hot, I'm turnin' it up This the blueprint, ni are you learnin' or what You done told me you respect me, now tell me I'm the nicest Admit it ni**, I'm a mid-life crisis

I think that's edited right. It's so uplifting I think I'm going to have to get some more. Peace dawg.

glockenspiel 12 years, 4 months ago

You could double the police force and the crime probably still would have happened, either there or somewhere else, later that night. Banning hand guns? That guy that pulled the trigger would still have his.

You can go downtown everynight of every year, your odds of getting shot are still about zilch. Downtown is a safe place to enjoy a night on the town.

My condolances to the family of the man who died and my prayers to the injured.

Rossp 12 years, 4 months ago

save it kpippen33.....

this crap isn't changing for you.......

people, stay home if you don't like down town nights.....

DaREEKKU 12 years, 4 months ago

Kpippen is right, the truth hurts. That being lack educated and intelligent decision making this morning Kpippen. Try revising what you post on here, before hitting send. Anggrn, I agree that my peers aren't exactly that desirable, hell, I don't go out myself because of that junk! I prefer a nice small group at Henry's ANY night! Closing down a venue isn't going to solve the problem though, we should find other alternatives. It's not the end of the world, let's not get drastic here. Honestly I think closing part, if not most of Mass Street down to traffic would help with surveillance (I just hope that my fellow peers don't see this as an invitation to roam in the once car ridden streets drunk to pass out). I also think it would offer Lawrence more character! Think of all the beautiful artwork and landscaping we could do! We could replace the asphalt with brick, and really make it a nice getaway. I think this model should ALSO be used in the new West Lawrence development. A little bit of walking (exercise) is EXACTLY what some people need.

wilson 12 years, 4 months ago

While we're making broad generalizations about an entire group of people based on the actions of an individual, who's suggesting that Lawrence ban artists and visitors from Topeka, along with hip-hop shows?

DaREEKKU 12 years, 4 months ago

In response to another post that lacks muster...Bankboy.....I think you could probably say that about 90 percent of the American Population PERIOD is linked to pornography....quit blaming the material and start blaming the people who committed the actions. Most percentages taken about trivial things such as that are innacurrate to an alarming degree as it is. Stop focusing on the material, and start focusing on the people who committed the actions and the solution. Let's not play the blame game, it's not working for the Administration at the highest level in the US Government, and it certainly won't work here.

Ember 12 years, 4 months ago

Blame music, the ultimate cop out.

Bankboy, if you'd like some positive rap to listen to, since you are deciding to group it all in one lump sum, here's a few titles that haven't got a single thing to do with the theme you lined out.

Eminem - "Lose Yourself" DMX - "X Gonna Give It To Ya" Coolio - "Gangsta Paradise" Coolio - "1,2,3,4," Coolio - "Fantastic Voyage"

The opening to "Lose Yourself" is awesome.

Quote: "Look. If you had one shot, one opportunity, to seize everything you ever wanted, one moment, would you capture it, or just let it go?"

The whoel song captures the essesnce of two Latin words. Carpe and diem.

Seize the Day.

Ya know, I have heard this nonsense about banning music in the past. I remember when heavy metal was inciting our children to commit suicide. I remember Manson being directly responsible for Columbine.

This is a prime example of someone abusing their right to use their brain and think. As a result, a lot of people on here are refusing to use their brain either, for that matter.

If any music was going to 'incite violence', as has been claimed on here, it would be heavy metal. Does the military use Dr. Dre to scare the locals or do they blare Guns -n- Roses? SWAT teams use several heavy metal artists in their attempts to end stand offs. It's public record, so go check it out.

Guns don't kill people. Bullets don't kill people. People kill people. The person who pulled the trigger made a conscious choice to to load the firearm. To chamber a round from the magazine. To pull the trigger. I have seen guns laying around my entire life, and I have never seen any of them fire without a human finger squeezing the trigger.

It's called personal responsibility, folks.

Banning rap music will do nothing more than involve Lawrence in a First Amendment court battle that it will not win.

Tipper Gore tried to get rid of heavy metal, and even with the backing of the PMRC and a decent amount of Congress, we still have heavy metal.

To quote Aerosmith:


Raider 12 years, 4 months ago

I blame the whole Hip-hop "culture" on this one. Everywhere you look, you see these types of thugs being glorified (MTV,BET etc) for selling drugs, carrying guns, "gettin da hoes" etc, etc. It's no wonder that the people who see this on tv believe it, and try to be like that. Ever hear the phrase "monkey see, monkey do"? These kids see all of this going on, and think that if they act like these guys on tv, then they will be somebody. It's all about the "bling", with no respect for other human beings. Hip-hop "culture" needs to be banned from tv, radio, music stores, etc. That will help diminish the problem.

As far as the Granada goes, this guy should have to have approval from the commissioners before bringing in acts that will put lives in danger.

CanadianPassport 12 years, 4 months ago

I agree about the walking downtown, and I also agree that the perps involved in this would not have considered the city code before deciding whether or not to bring a handgun on Saturday.

If you want to PREvent the violence, you have to do something to deter people from causing it, not add meaningless prosecution. The OBVIOUS solution: ban "puffy" jackets. But seriously, use good judgement about who plays in our clubs. Wanna know why Da Bomb Squad uses pseudonyms? Fel-oh-nies.

Ember 12 years, 4 months ago

"As far as the Granada goes, this guy should have to have approval from the commissioners before bringing in acts that will put lives in danger."

And I seem to recall that when the Impotent Sea Snakes, a by-product of the GWAR style of music, played downtown a few years ago, there was a massive fight that broke out filling most of the 1000 and 1100 blocks of Mass Street. I remember this because I had to fight to get out of that area.

ISS isn't rap, it's death metal/heavy metal/live sarcasm with guitars.

I have physical scars from mosh pits. Glass in my back, dislocated shoulders, a few broken bones, cuts and scrapes. I'm looking forward to another good pit like that.

If you don't like rap music, that is fine and dandy. If you think it should be banned because you don't like, that is fine and dandy. Free country, so think what you want. That, however, does not entitle you to label everything in a genre based on the actions of a few.

With that exact logic, America had the Japanese internment camps during WW2.

Paranoia is no reason for bigotry.

Eric Beightel 12 years, 4 months ago

A vast amount of reactionary posts on here today. Two people are shot in a senseless act of violence and everyone is ready to ban hip-hop? It is a tragedy and I'm sorry that it happened, but it's not that much of a surprise. Our society is becoming increasingly more violent and more and more people - regardless of race - are "solving" their problems through violence. It has nothing to do with the music, the establishment, or any of your other scapegoats. It was the act of one coward. One person made this choice. You can't blindly assess blame on everyone involved.

Limit the amount of drinks people buy at the show? Ban hip-hop? Shut down the bars? WTF? A more noticeable police presence may help but really - I think this is much more of a societal issue and no matter how many cops you have roaming the streets - when a very large group of people get together, sometimes emotions run high and poor decisions are made. That's the way it goes. There is always some punk who wants to show how hard he is who thinks the "solution" is violence. There isn't a whole lot anyone can do about it. It's sad but we should be thankful that it hasn't happened more often.

Although I have no statistics to support my position I would suggest that the majority of violent crime that occurs in downtown Lawrence late at night is perpetrated by out-of-towners who live in a culture where violence is much more common and tacitly accepted. It's natural for them to resolve their issues through violence. Lawrence has managed to grow while avoiding the problems of extreme poverty which inevitably breeds violence. Lawrence has grown without fostering violent gangs. This is not a Lawrence problem. It is a problem with our neighboring cities that has unfortunately spilled over into our town.
I'm not suggesting that we also tacitly accept the violence but I also don't think that we have achieved "problem" status. Two people were shot, it sucks and I'm sorry. One incident does not an epidemic make.

DaREEKKU 12 years, 4 months ago

Raider....once again a post that doesn't even past rational reasoning. I could very easily say the "monkey see monkey do" reasoning for the hate and bigotry in America and blame that on certain groups of people.....Republicans, Christians, whomever! It all comes back to the simple fact of personal responsibility. Our society does not encourage thinking minds so you can't blame one aspect of society without blaming ALL of society. Example: I am going to use your reasoning to say why Religious Music should be banned, specifically Christianity. Promoting Christianity is exclusive and discriminatory especially due to the lack of equality between men and women in certain parts of the Bible. There, see how easy it was? Or how about saying that country music should be banned because "cowboys" resort to bar fighting? Granted my arguments were also not very strong, but making these connections are simply generalizations and stupid. IT'S NOT THE MUSIC'S FAULT! If you need me, I'll be with the rest of Lawrence or in a blue state where people are part of the 21st century.

DaREEKKU 12 years, 4 months ago

By the way Bankboy, I took a statistical class ;-). Most of the statistics you hear are not very accurate.

Raider 12 years, 4 months ago

"With that exact logic, America had the Japanese internment camps during WW2.

Paranoia is no reason for bigotry. "

Last time I checked, the Japanese were'nt on the tv promoting violence and drugs. They weren't on tv encouraging kids to do anything to get the "bling". They weren't on our radios encouraging sex. They weren't telling our youth that it's ok to be a dropout, and that as long as you can sell drugs, or carry a weapon, that you don't need an education.

While this whole hip-hop "culture" can be seen as freedom of expression, it is destroying America's youth. Our kids believe what they see on tv, and what they hear on the radio. I have no problem with rap itself. I have a problem with the contents of the lyrics.

These rappers are role models to our kids. Whether they want it or not, they are. They need to take responsibility, and realize that kids are listening to the message they are sending.

outoftowner 12 years, 4 months ago

Who said the shooting had anything to do with the music? Ever think it was a "personal" issue, and they just happened to hash it out on Mass street the night the rappers came to town? Come on, do you really think keeping Topeka and KC out of "your town" will help anything? Get're getting all worked up and you don't even know the details of the shooting yet.

DaREEKKU 12 years, 4 months ago

Well...then the parents actually need to step up, stop being lazy, and TALK to their kids!!!! It is the PARENTAL responsibility to present both sides of the story and explain the options. Simply banning something that you don't like isn't going to protect the kids or fix anything *EG evolution). It really makes me mad that all these lazy parents would rather ban things than sit down and talk to their kids. Can we actually get back to a solution rather than arguing who's botched statistics are right?

sonny 12 years, 4 months ago

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bankboy119 12 years, 4 months ago

Da, you're right. Parents should talk to their kids about not filling their heads with crap like that.

hurlehey 12 years, 4 months ago

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bankboy119 12 years, 4 months ago

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Richard Heckler 12 years, 4 months ago

The city needs to be able to project an extremely consistent and firm message to local night spots that this is not a tolerable circumstance no matter how much revenue a business generates. So far as I am concerned they can take their money and hit the road. Lawrence can still be extremely successful without the violent nature of a few night spots.

It's time the state aka Topeka provide local governments with some means to shut the places off...take the alcohol license away.

Raider 12 years, 4 months ago

DaREEKKU, I agree with you 100%. It's the parent's responsibility to talk to their children. What about the forgotten kids though? What about the ones without parents, or positive role-models to talk to them? They look to these entertainers (I use the term loosely) and they believe what they see/hear. It's not just hip-hop, it's all genres. Hip-hop is the one with the longest reach though, because it's in every aspect of our society. It's in our sports world, it's on our commercials, it dominates all of the tv stations. Kids can't escape it. Like I said earlier, it's not the style of music, it's the lyrics and the message.

And yes, DaREEKKU, your example of the republicans is fitting. It shows what happens when a section of society blindly follows a few, without really seeing the truth.

I don't disagree with alot of the tings you say. I just think the message sent to our kids needs to be changed. It's not alright to steal, kill, sell drugs, quit school, commit violent crimes, etc.

Amandak, you hit the nail on the head. These artists are all putting on an act, while returning to their mansions afterwards. They're making their living by influencing others. Nothing wrong with that, artists have influenced society for years and years. However, the message they send is destroying our society. Keep the style, cahnge the message.

Snoop 12 years, 4 months ago

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CanadianPassport 12 years, 4 months ago

Dear Mike, It's not the fault of the music, but most artists don't draw gun-toting criminals. Please, keep the Topeka crime element out of Lawrence. We know it's not the fault of the hip-hop, but we need to rely on your judgement to know who not to invite. Hip hop can use urban imagery to tell stories and still be artful. But, some artists should be discriminated against because their music caters to a crowd who wants to hear about how cool it is to shoot people, and how selling crack is a spectacular career choice. Please listen to their music first, then decide whether to book them. We needn't be tolerant of that which doesn't live by the rules of our society. But, we can't rely on a ban because our government isn't smart enough to know the difference. So, we need you, and the other local club owners to be our gatekeepers.


Staci Dark Simpson 12 years, 4 months ago

I will tell you guys now I am not rascist. But we can't deny when you watch a big city news cast 90% of the perps are black. Its time for the black community, teachers, and parents to let kids know they have a future that doesn't have to breed violence. This is a tragedy and we need to pray for the families dealing with this.

sonny 12 years, 4 months ago

So Bank boy can say pop a cap in a Black person ass But I cant' voice my oppion see how rascist lawrence is. It's cool I'm used it. Yall don't see what thier doing . THeir going to call this shooting a black thing. ONe day hip hop will be big enough to rock memorial statuim uhh hatters now erase this punks

bankboy119 12 years, 4 months ago

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craigers 12 years, 4 months ago

bankboy, I am right there with you. People don't realize how much what they listen to actually has an impact on how they act. I have noticed that in my own life. It is amazing how the same group of people that scream about the music not being to blame and personal accountability will scream that it is a woman's right to choose to have an abortion after she got pregnant but having unprotected sex. (To all who are going to comment on this, it is a generalized comment and not taking into considerations the other scenarios that end up in unwanted pregnancy, so don't get your underwear in a bunch). You wonder why the music gets blamed? What music do those people listen to? Manson, what a model citizen by the way, has horrible lyrics too. And I would definitely challenge that whole 90% of Americans tied to pornography.

Richard Heckler 12 years, 4 months ago

The city needs to be able to project an extremely consistent and firm message to local night spots that this is not a tolerable circumstance no matter how much revenue a business generates. So far as I am concerned they can take their money and hit the road. Lawrence can still be extremely successful without the violent nature of a few night spots.

So what if the flying bullets missed the intended target and hit some innocent young person completely uninvolved such as one of your children? Maybe your wife,husband or lover? I am not willing to accept that because it happens with some degree of frequency elsewhere that it must be expected in Lawrence. Sure everywhere has some level of violence however that does not mean that we should do nothing about obvious violent hot spots.

The time of night could have been 8,9,10,11 or 12. So what does time have to do with the problem?

Parties involving gun activity have certainly increased.

Chris Tackett 12 years, 4 months ago

Hey Spacystaci8,

if you have to preface your comment with "i'm not a rascist" it probably means what you're going to say is racist.

Do you think these "big city news casts" are a perfect representation of that city's crime?

Maybe you should go "pray" for more accurate news. Or fewer racist cops.

And seriously people, enough with the hip-hop bashing. I love Johnny Cash, but I've never wanted to "shoot a lone rider" or whatever.

Music and art are there for people to experience. If someone kills someone it is because they are a killer, not because music "made them do it".

This entire discussion is ridiculous with a capital "Geez".

Kontum1972 12 years, 4 months ago


Well for these gun-toting fools who like shooting people some would say "this is a form of terrorism"....and if these gun-toting fools want to practice the art of war....the recruiting offices can give you the chance to show your bravado and the opportunity, plus u get paid for us what your made of...u can get your fill...24/7.

LauraB 12 years, 4 months ago

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this (and I don't have time to read EVERY comment that has been added) --

Kudos to Steven Bowen who helped perform CPR on Robert Earl Williams. Seeing a dying stranger and helping him, not being afraid to get involved in a sketchy situation or get blood on his own hands.

I think this says a lot about why Lawrence is different. We are not numb or desensitized to this kind of crime, we don't turn our back and wait for someone else to do something about it.

Same for the Granada employee who let the 22-year old in and called an ambulance.

They might be criminals, we don't know, but they are human beings and they were treated as such.

IamWhoIam 12 years, 4 months ago

From all the bantering that I have been reading this morning, I only hear one common stand point, which is that on closing down Mass St. at certain times on the weekend. I find this idea to be interesting... I would suggest that if anyone is truly interested in getting anything changed for the downtown area, that you combine your efforts in that direction, because fighting types of music is an endless round-n-round battle.

CanadianPassport 12 years, 4 months ago

Ever hear about anyone getting shot at a Johnny Cash show? That is an idiotic comparison.

Chris Tackett 12 years, 4 months ago


I see your point (sort of). The military may be a good way to teach discipline or whatever. But murderers belong in jail, not in our military. The armed forces are supposed to create peace (emphasis on "supposed"). They are not here to serve as an outlet for people that like killing.

"I <3 Free Speech. It lets us see who all the idiots are." -

CanadianPassport 12 years, 4 months ago

I listen to PFunk and you don't see me wearing funny sunglasses and flying in a space ship? Do you? Do you see me in a spaceship? Seriously?

Staci Dark Simpson 12 years, 4 months ago

Shakedown-Dude!! Wasn't trying to be a hater. If you think I am rascist you need to check yourself. You're right about news not always being accurate, but that doesn't erase the fact that crime is more prevalent in black communities. I lived in DC for awhile and saw enough crime to last a lifetime. Even in the supposedly good 'hood. I slept on the floor because I was afraid a bullet might come thru my window. Life shouldn't be like that

Amandak 12 years, 4 months ago

I may be one of the few who has noticed, but the appeal of dowtown Lawrence has been waning quite a bit over the past few years. We have homeless people wielding machetes and the gun-toting hip-hoppers shooting people. Lawrence needs to unite in the belief that our kids see all this crap going on downtown, no matter what time of day it occurs. We need to strengthen our resolve and not allow the people who commit these crimes to define our city. This is not a black versus white or a "have" versus "have nots" issue, this is a community issue that begins in the home! Further, we must ensure the our police department has the resources to be proactive, which I can assure you they currently do not possess. This, however, will cost money and you cannot expect the business owners dowtown to pay for increased police presence at their night spots--its both cost prohibitive to them and the benefits extend beyond their property. Remember, the club owners don't give credence to the values of our community, so we must do our part to protect ourselves and guarantee resources are present to combat these acts before they occur. To the city commission--If the police department wants it, give it to them.

Rossp 12 years, 4 months ago

All you people talking about the "thugs" or the "black people" remind me of the people who talk about "pitbulls" being bad. It's the same talk isn't it? It doesn't matter if you are black or white, have two legs or four, everyone acts the same. It's all in the way you are raised/treated right?

bankboy119 12 years, 4 months ago

Love how my posts are being removed because rappers talk about getting high and drunk and I can't repeat it. Bunch of crack heads running around shooting people and making money off of it. There, now pardon me while I go smack my ho, yo.

bankboy119 12 years, 4 months ago

Ross, I didn't see anyone say that blacks were bad. If they do they're a racist and an idiot. But okay let's go the route that it's how they're raised....who listens to gangsta rap? Who listens to it the most? I had some white friends who listened to it, but most of mine listened to country. Most of my friends who were black listened to hip hop, but I had a couple who listened to country. Now, when we fast forward to the present, most of the gang shootings, black on black crime, most of the violence at concerts, black on black crime. As somebody pointed out earlier, when was the last time somebody got shot at a Bob Dylan concert?

Rossp 12 years, 4 months ago

No one said "blacks were bad, but "thugs"/"them people" pretty much reffer to them blacks doesn't it? You all are just beating around the bush by stating it this way.

born1980 12 years, 4 months ago

Get off the Topeka bashing wagon. I moved from Lawrence because of the lower cost of living and the big house I could buy that would have been almost doubled in Lawrence. I am only 15 minutes from Lawrence, but safely away from their idiotic city government. Keep bashing Topeka, while your housing costs rise, affordable housing remains non-existent, and jobs that pay well are virtually impossible to find.

Chris Tackett 12 years, 4 months ago

Spacey, no need for anyone to "check" themselves. I didn't call you a racist (and i don't think the 's' is necessary). I just wanted to say that having to say, "i'm not a racist, BUT..." or "I'm not a homophobe, BUT..." or "i'm not a jerk, BUT..." is a usually a pretty good indicator that the following statement will be racist, or homophobic, or jerk-ish.

CanadianPassport 12 years, 4 months ago

Yes, the city government that refuses to prosecute the Phelps family out of fear of reprisal is much more reasonable.

I'll go ahead and pay a little more so I don't have to live in a demilitarized zone.

Hong_Kong_Phooey 12 years, 4 months ago

Well...this has been interesting. I seriously disagree with the people that say "the hip-hop made them do it! The hip-hop made them do it!" Yes, many of the songs in the hip-hop genre are violent. Do I think that the music spurns people to commit violence? No, I think that hip-hop was a creation of the streets and the black community. (uh oh, the racism radar is going up on your screens as you say to yourself "he said "black community") The fact is that the black community tends to be a violent world. Is this a blanket conviction of every black person? Heck no. I have many friends that are black and they have avoided the violence because they CHOSE to make a positive impact in the world. Many people are not strong enough to do that. Do I think that black people are predisposed to violence? Heck no. I'm sure that if the majority of white people grew up in poverty, in a world that surrounded them with gangs, prostitutes, drug dealers, deadbeat dads etc. Then we would be seeing their faces on the news every night. Anyway, my point was that because many of these artists come from a violent background and write songs about that violent background, they are going to attract people who can identify with that. Yes, fights break out at virtually any musical venue. However, I don't recall hearing about any fights at the Country Music Awards, or gun shots ringing out at an Eagles concert.

Chris Tackett 12 years, 4 months ago

Hong Kong, Great point. I agree with nearly everything you said. But you're point would have been a little better if you'd used some different examples at the end.

I think tickets to the CMA's are like $500 and Eagles concerts are pretty pricey too. So the crowds there are going to be less pre-disposed to violence. And probably pretty tight security (metal detectors et al)

Maybe try Farmers Ball and the Dewayne Brothers. (both local : )

ben_ness 12 years, 4 months ago

Silence_Dogood -

Things will never change in Lawrence. I grew up there and thought it was great until I actually got out and moved to your neck of the woods - the East Coast. Lawrence is an ignorant hypocracy that claims to be many things it is not -- as these bloggers have so aptly illustrated. I find it silly that a town filled with this many narrow minded, ignorant people could consider itself a open-minded, literate city of the arts.

It's time for you to move home Mr. Franklin :)

sonny 12 years, 4 months ago

TO answer the qestion. No this was not a black or white thing this was a stupid thing. Nothing to due with race beides the easy target of of hiphop being prodomunate black. Yes on thing Bank boy or whoever said was right was the fact people don't think thier words are that powerful well we have seen time after time that word do get people killed. But what's the message over all in your music love or hate if it's hate it well spawn hate in my music that's not the case it's love. People think more broad not so narrow minded. Love

bankboy119 12 years, 4 months ago

homophobe = anyone who does not bow the gay agenda.

Chris Tackett 12 years, 4 months ago

Bankboy, What is the straight agenda? I just want to make sure I'm pulling my weight...

Hong_Kong_Phooey 12 years, 4 months ago

OnShakedown: Yeah, I wasn't referring to the crowds at the CMA's. I was actually referring to the fight that occurred at the BET Awards (I think it was the BET Awards, it could have been the Ebony awards or something similar) between the hip-hop artists.

Are you serious that tickets are $500?! Man, I'd much rather watch from the comfort of my couch with the fridge in easy reach.

Amandak 12 years, 4 months ago

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Confrontation 12 years, 4 months ago

Country music leads to the wearing of ugly boots, too-tight Levi's, silly hats, drinking, smoking, and treating women as sex objects. I know we all blame rap music for stereotyping women, but country music videos do their part. Sadly, the people in the area where I was raised listened to mainly country music. At ton of the people in the area are alcoholics. Many MANY women get beat up in their homes. A huge country music fan there recently beat a man so badly that he now has to drink his food through a straw. Most men in the area feel that women are to be controlled by men (country music plus the bible on that one). A whole lot of people carry rifles in their trucks. Some for hunting, and others because they got in a country bar fight last weekend. There are bar fights every single weekend in these bars that NEVER play rap music. Can you explain this? How could there be fights without rap music? Must be a mistake. Surely, no one who listens to country could ever have an interest in being violent. Let's look at the real problem here: Men being pigs, men feeling the need to prove their masculinity, and alcohol. This is the common bond across various types of music, race, and location.

CanadianPassport 12 years, 4 months ago

You know, if someone says "thug" and you automatically think "black person," I'd say you're the racist. This perpetrator could very easily be some white trash in a "puffy" jacket. Is he not still a thug?

bongo 12 years, 4 months ago

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Hong_Kong_Phooey 12 years, 4 months ago

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ben_ness 12 years, 4 months ago

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Hong_Kong_Phooey 12 years, 4 months ago

CanadianPassport: Actually, it would be very difficult for this "perpetrator" to be some "white trash in a "puffy" jacket." You know, seeing as how all the witnesses said it was a 6' tall black male. You ARE right, however, that people who automatically jump from "thug" to "black person" are racist.

andyk 12 years, 4 months ago

hey confrontation, that's funny, but true. toby keith's "i ain't as good as i used to be" (i don't know, something like that, i don't listen to country.) anyways, watch that video. the whole song is about a country bar fight that he gets in and gets the crap kicked out of him. at least thats what the video is.

CanadianPassport 12 years, 4 months ago

Yeah, we really need to put a stop to all these country bands coming to Lawrence and inciting violence.

ben_ness 12 years, 4 months ago

CanadianPassport - Just an observation. Don't you think the term "White Trash" has negative racial connotations as well?

born1980 12 years, 4 months ago

Yes, Topeka has failed by not prosecuting the Phelps family for protesting in a free society. This is another reason why I moved from Lawrence. The same people who rail against the Patriot Act and claim they value civil liberties are the same ones who think those with differing viewpoints should be silenced. Liberal=someone who is open to other's opinions as long as they agree with them.

passionatelibra 12 years, 4 months ago

Wow. This reminds me of the stories my Mom shared with me about how people reacted to Elvis and the Beatles. The world was going to fall apart and every negative thing was their fault as well. It's the people, not the music.

whateva 12 years, 4 months ago

Ban music? I am tried of hearing about violence in media dictating human nature. We are animals acting like animals, if you create a culture rooted in violence you will act violent. Many comments on here asking for more law enforcement, banning cars from mass?, asking permission for certain a certain type of music, blaming the granada for having a rap concert in the first place. I was on the streets when this occured and it was after close to my knowledge of the granda they were shut down and the street was fairly empty......a block away is LAST CALL they are open till 3 and it is always overflowing with people drinking and doing drugs in the parking lot. I am not saying everyone but if you been there you know exactly what i am talking about. What needs to be done? you can try to figure that out til your blue in the face. Sounds like from most of the comments post people are asking for more rule, more police, and even censorship of media. Get more patrol downtown, break up the mobs that are always lingering around after bars close....unless you really want random police stops, and a political/cultural atmosphere that will kill the cultural diversity that makes Lawrence an Oasis in the midwest. This was a Tragic event that should not be overlooked, but this can be very bad for the nightlife in Lawrence and we need to be careful what we are asking for.

craigers 12 years, 4 months ago

Confrontation those people who believe women are to be controlled and say they are basing their beliefs on the bible are either illiterate or don't understand the whole point in the book of Ephesians about mutual submission.

Amandak 12 years, 4 months ago

Rossp--When I talk about "thug life" its a term many hip-hoppers aspire to. I'm not stereotyping them, they are doing it themselves. They think its "cool" or "hardcore" to hurt, mame, steal and assualt others! And, yes, they can be compared to pitbulls in one sense, and that is in the fact that like a pitbull they have no sound reasoning capacity and cannot think rationally! People who kill aimlessly are slugs!! These suspects are dirt and I hope they pay to the fullest extent.

Hong_Kong_Phooey 12 years, 4 months ago

On a side note...does anyone else find it ironic that Muslims around the world are protesting by throwing rocks and Malotov cocktails because the prophet Muhammed was portrayed condoning violence in cartoons? Kind of emphasizing the point of the cartoons I would say...

ben_ness 12 years, 4 months ago

Whateva - I agree with you. Lawrence has always had a vibrant night life. It has also always had a very strong undertone of violence. Growing up in Lawrence I was in the middle of many fights -- not as an active participant --some in which guns were pulled, some in which shots were fired, and some in which people were wheeled away on stretchers. It seems this one is getting so much attention because it was closely related to Lawrence's night life and happened on Mass street.

Jd Finch 12 years, 4 months ago

Just adding fuel to the fire:

From the nytimes: Security Guard Killed Outside Site of a Busta Rhymes Video Shoot

By ANDREW JACOBS Published: February 6, 2006 The filming of a celebrity-packed music video for the rapper Busta Rhymes was interrupted by gunfire early yesterday, leaving a security guard dead and scores of crew members, extras and performers diving for cover at a warehouse in Brooklyn.

Ember 12 years, 4 months ago

Okay, you want some violent lyrics to complain about?

From Morality Squad:

We're the morality squad Armed with the wrath of God My name is Granbo And here's my holy hot rod Freedom for all the people Brave and true and strong Freedom for all the people Unless I think they're wrong

Pretty much sums this whole thread up. Might not be a holy crusade, except for maybe Bankboy, but the concept behind the words is still the same.

bankboy119 12 years, 4 months ago

Whateva, I say we just ban the news and call it good then since they're more violent than 1/2 the rappers.

Ember 12 years, 4 months ago

Ban dissemination of information. Just... brilliant.

honeydew785 12 years, 4 months ago

I have had the pleasure to be in this unique mixtured town, whether it be at the school, at the bar scene or at work. But recently the postings that I have reviewed over the past few days have totally changed my mind. You see, I live in Topeka and have almost all my life. I am not fearful nor have I had troubles. I enjoyed this town for the simple fact (or used to be) that people here didn't just jump to conclusions. This is a fast rising commuinty. Things are going to happen. Bad mouthing the neighboring cities is not going to solve anything an I refuse to lay blame on anyone but OUR society. I have however been totally offended by the remarks that those from Topeka are nothing but thugs, gang-bangers, low-lifes anf trouble makers. You have some also here in Lawrence, because I read the paper. Most of the postings that I have read have had a more holier than thou feel and trust me, this town isn't filled with all saints. Bad things happen everywhere and in order to make bad things stop, there needs to be a solution. All I have read in the past few days is problems, because that's all negative attitudes towards others bring. Or maybe you are fooling yourselves by thinking if we grow, we can still keep bad apples out. Well, maybe you could if you have more on your plate than if a person can smoke in a bar after 2 a.m. or not.

I have read the postings for the past two days and from the just of it I feel very unwelcomed here and that people from Lawrence really don't like Topekans. So long for love thy neighbor....

After saying all that, I have voiced to all my co-workers how unwelcome I feel and how I feel I need to go back to my own community and work there. Afterall my kind really isn't welcomed here. Trust, I started my new job search today. Not that it matters nor my you care. But that's your prerogative.

It comes down to this, if you feel that there is such a problem with certain bars, do what you need to do to get them closed down. It's not that hard to figure out.

Thank you for the good times I thought I had here.

honeydew785 12 years, 4 months ago's that you all feel that Topeka brings all this down here.

I know the older gentleman that was killed. It's personal. But I have been reading post since yesterday and all day Sunday Iall I read was Topeka, Kc...Topeka, KC...ban them from our community...they don't need to be here...we don't want there problems. How you feel if that's what you wake up for the past two days? So, when I have told people that I met here I am from Topeka....the say "oh". What's a person to think?

Crispian Paul 12 years, 4 months ago

Hip hop is not to blame. There are different segments of this culture. Before we blame the music, let's take a look at a national culture that has, for 100's of years, encouraged violence towards those who are considered less than. Those of you who comment that the music is to blame and cite a few instances of glorifying this in rap, you are only looking at a very small portion of this. Look into KRS One, Gangstarr, Talib Kweli and Mos Def. These rappers certainly aren't talking about these things. Violent music, regardless of the genre, is a description of the life one leads. Let's change the culture of our country so that kids aren't seeing this and perhaps it would not be reflected in the music.

born1980 12 years, 4 months ago

Amen honeydew. I have given up trying to show people Topeka has many good things to offer. Where I live, in Southeast Shawnee County, there are several large-scale developments being built and the neighborhood I live in is about 20% people who work in Lawrence. Funny how people are moving here when it is full of so many "thugs."

redmorgan 12 years, 4 months ago

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Snoop 12 years, 4 months ago

Hey LJ world staff, question for ya, you mean its perfectly ok for redneck confederate flag waving anti-negro eliminate the "shake your @ss" crap is allowed to be posted but calling it out tis not. Lets just ban Negro/ Darkie concerts and "hip hop" events. then all the crime will go away. Remember when dude uttered, "if you abort all black babies you might reduce crime" Oops if you abort all potential hip-hop musicians.

born1980 12 years, 4 months ago

Actually my orignial comment was based on Canadian's comment about keeping the "Topeka crime element out of Lawrence." It is a recurring theme. There have been a slew of comments from previous stories that have bashed Topeka, everything from David Wittig to housing costs.

bankboy119 12 years, 4 months ago

Bob, Ember, please tell me you knew I was joking.

bankboy119 12 years, 4 months ago

Joking about the news.

By the way Ember, if you read the rest of the lyrics there is no way that is a Christian band. I couldn't even post the rest of that without it being removed. So I don't really get what that post was about unless you're saying it was a Christian band.

honeydew785 12 years, 4 months ago

There is another story posted today and I said two days....shouldn't skip words. I have read the postings for two days....And all day yeasterday I wanted to say something.

So I read postings from the other story and posted it there originally then changed my mind and decided to post her to.

Patronizing will get you no where. Facts remain yesterday Topeka was bashed big time.

the post that pushed me over is here..... Police: Witnesses silent about Sunday morning shooting death

Oh, topeka might not be able to spell....but I have found out people from Lawrence can't keep there negative opinions to themselves...

neopolss 12 years, 4 months ago


I hope you all are listening to yourselves. Because you have probably crossed the threshold in sounding like your mother or father. Blame the rap music. Sure. Great excuse. Just like a generation blamed what Elvis was doing to our youth, or that the Beatles were corrupting our children. Now we listen to it thinking of the "good 'ol days" and harping about today's nasty influence in music. Catching my drift yet? Oh, but it's different. How? I think it centers more on your own opinions of the music, and less on its actual impact.

Individuals make their own decisions, without the need of music to do it for them. Let's look at the other factors that contribute. Families that are typically more divided than they previously were, enormous divorce rates, overall family time has dropped considerably with extra curricular activities, sports, and parents who don't spend time with their kids. This generation has been poorly neglected, by a generation trying to escape the crushing authority of the previous one. We simply haven't found a middle ground.

Blame the rap if you want. And then blame the rest of the list of troublemakers for our society: Elvis, the Beatles, Ozzy, the Ramones, Marilyn Manson, Dre, Snoop, Eminem, Superman, Dukes of Hazzard, Grand Theft Auto, MTV, VH1, E, Every movie ever made, Music, TV, your neighbors, their neighbors, air in general, the planet, God, and most importantly your parents.

Or we could simply hold the individual accountable and assume that most of us don't need a rap song to tell us to shoot a gun or not.

craigers 12 years, 4 months ago

TOB I'm glad somebody said it. You are looking for an excuse to quit your job if a message board that you voluntarily go to and is anonymous makes you want to quit and just stay in Topeka.

QB1976 12 years, 4 months ago

Wow and we wonder why we as a human race can not get along. We all want to take away each others rights.

In reading all these post, it is truly sad that the man who was shot dead has been forgotten. A person is dead. A family has to put their son in a grave. That is what these postings should be about. We should all feel for the family of the man that was killed. That could of been someone in your family.

Do I feel that the music is to blame? In my opinion the answer is no. I have grown up listening to everything from NWA to Garth Brooks to The Doors to Luther Vandross. So what kind of person does that make me? All I am trying to say is that when you say it is the type of music that was the cause of another person to take someones life, then all you are saying is that we are unintelligent people.

YourItalianPrincess 12 years, 4 months ago

You can't blame music for what happened. I listen to all types of music but it certainly doesn't make me do strange things like killing someone.

Remember when they tried to say that the music from AC/DC made that kid kill himself or people. Or was it Manson's music that made these kids kill others. These kids had major issues going on in their lives, but music wasn't the problem.

Was is gang related? Was it a random drive by like you see in some places? A jealous boyfriend or husband whose wife was cheating? Whats the real story here, and does anyone really know?

CanadianPassport 12 years, 4 months ago

Born1980, I bet we agree on everything except Topeka. I think the Patriot Act is awesome. I agree with freedom of speech, I'm just against child abuse and terrorism. I honestly don't care how those crimes are prevented. If you want to listen to my phone calls and make sure I'm not a terrorist, that's fine. Surveilance of the public is going to happen, just tell me what the laws are and I'll try not to violate them.

More to the point, is anyone here really advocating banning music? I think that all we're saying is 'keep the trashers with guns out of Lawrence.' It's not about hiphop. If any true hiphop fans are really defending Doe as an "artist," I'd be surprised. If shots ring out at a Kenny G concert, and people cried out to keep jazz out of their cities, wouldn't some Jazz fan step forward and say, "Hey, how about we just keep Kenny out, he's not really playing jazz anyway."

Oh, and can we all agree not to ridicule other people's spelling in our posts, it comes across as really petty. It cracks me up every time.

'"I don't think you need to spell that with an "s" -- SLAM! You got served!!'

born1980 12 years, 4 months ago

Wouldn't you shoot if you were forced to go to a Kenny G concert?

towniejj 12 years, 4 months ago

I cannot believe you people are blaming this on the "hip hop" show and crowd. That is so ignorant. There are hip hop shows in Lawrence at least two nights a week EVERY week, yet people are not shot at those shows. There are also A LOT of hip hop artists who do NOT promote violence. The SHOOTER is to blame in this situation, to put blame anywhere else is to allow people to not be accountable for their actions...and that is ridiculous!

Godot 12 years, 4 months ago

Neopols, you almost had me until you wrote: "This generation has been poorly neglected, by a generation trying to escape the crushing authority of the previous one. "

That's a copout. Come on, this generation has been neglected by our generation. No excuses allowed.

CanadianPassport 12 years, 4 months ago

Yes ... I admit that I would probably be the guy who does the shooting at the Kenny G concert, but the wounds would all be self-inflicted.

cat_soup 12 years, 4 months ago

Blame should be placed solely on the shooter, like towniejj has said.

Who are we to generalize all hip-hop artists and fans into one group and then focus our anger (for lack of a better term coming to mind) on an entirity of people?

I'm sure none of you like to be generalized by the type of music you listen to, the type of car you drive, the type of job you have, etc. Why should this style be any different?

bankboy119 12 years, 4 months ago

Generalizations are just that. It is the culture "in general." It doesn't mean there aren't any exceptions.

yeah_right 12 years, 4 months ago

The people who kill are the exception. Generally people who listen to hip hop do not kill other people. People who have no respect for life kill. I am going to make a generalization and say that people who grow up witnessing crime are more likely to commit crime. Poverty and lack of education are causes. Hip hop music is not!

cat_soup 12 years, 4 months ago

Point taken, bankboy.

But a majority of these posts have had terribly negative conotations toward the hip-hip community.

And, I believe the metaphor has been brought up before, (or one similar) if there was a shooting at a country concert, there wouldn't be anyone up in arms about getting the music out of the community. It would just be a shooting at a concert.

craigers 12 years, 4 months ago

cat_soup, I don't think you have been on this site very long. You would probably get a lot of comments about dumb hicks using their six-shooters at a good old country concert. That is merely what I would expect to see.

yeah_right 12 years, 4 months ago

There have been murders in Lawrence that haven't caused this much uproar. In the Jason Dillon case, nobody blamed the murder of the three year old on anything except for Jason Dillon. In the case of the man who set Boardwalk Apartments on fire, music wasn't blamed, however, lots tried to blame Boardwalk for this. When people kill people while driving drunk in their car, the drunk driver is to blame. Why is it so hard to simply place the blame on the idiot who pulled the trigger!

mztrendy 12 years, 4 months ago

Seriously, how do you folks know that it even has any thing to do with the Granasty? I hate that bar, wouldn't ever go in there again, but thats my choice. Maybe it was across the street, or down the road? Maybe it was a couple of people who just decided to shoot some people, and where would there be the most people out in Lawrence at 2am besides downtown? I go to the ranch a lot, and about 2 months ago, there was a fight that broke out in the parking lot after it closed and a gun was shown. Had someone been shot, then what would be to blame? That country music is too aggressive and to blame for people killing people. Do you think someone listens to the song about whiskey for my men, beer for my horses and actually give their horses beer? Or how about save a horse ride a cowboy? How many parades have you been to where you seen a bunch of people riding cowboys instead of horses? c'mon now people....

Ember 12 years, 4 months ago

bankboy, you obviously read the lyrics, which I might add that I know by heart. The problem is that you are obviously refusing to see the irony of the lyrics I posted.

Read them again, and this time, actually read them and don't just glance over them.

And I never asserted that GWAR was a Christian band. Far from it, actually.

The lyrics, while looking horrendous, are actually all in jest by GWAR. The stage show is basically a live B-movie, and to top it off, all the members are college educated in the engineering fields, most with a Masters.

Frankly I find them entertaining. The fact that they upset you, apparently, is even more amusing.

Hong_Kong_Phooey 12 years, 4 months ago

I think you all are losing the point of what some people are saying. I don't think that anyone has said that the music forced the shooter to, well, shoot. They are saying that the violent culture that seems to be inherent in THE MAJORITY of hip-hop music likely contributed to this. Why? Because there are a lot of violent people involved with, and attending, hip-hop shows. You are just trying to be the most P.C. person possible if you can't recognize the fact that there are a lot of criminals involved in hip-hop (Ice Cube - dealt crack, Nelly - dealt crack, .50 Cent - shot 9 times[probably not because he was rude to the girl at Starbuck's], Tupac - killed in Las Vegas, Busta Rhymes - had a shooting TODAY while recording his rap video, Notorious B.I.G. - shot dead, Snoop Dogg - Long Beach Crips, the list goes on & on )

Ember 12 years, 4 months ago

Well, if it is about the violence involved, I suppose we should ban baseball.

Seen a lot of people get beaten pretty good with baseball bats over the years. Same for loose lengths of chain, pocket knives, 2 by 4's, tire irons, just to name a few things I've seen in fights.

What is at issue here is not whether the music is violent, or if the people singing it are promoting the 'gangsta' lifestyle.

What is at issue here is why should the shooter be exempt from punishment due to the music that he/she listened to that night?

There IS such a thing as personal responsibility, but it has basically been destroyed by defense attorneys who want any reason at all to avoid their client being convicted. This is so ingrained into our psyches that it is almost impossible to find someone that will agree with me that no outside influence FORCED this person to, in no particular order:

A.) Bring a gun to a concert and either: -A1.) Carry it into the concert or -A2.) Leave it in the vehicle B.) Get into some altercation of one type or another with another sentient human being C.) While arguing, obtain that weapons from either -C1.) Concealment on their person or -C2.) Remove it from the vehicle it was kept in prior to the altercation. D.) Point the gun at the other person. E.) Pull the trigger. F.) Then run away.

The only letter entry that could even vaguely be accidental would be "E", and even that cannot be verified.

This shooting was a direct choice by one person to violently assault two other people.

Does it really take this much effort for people to notice this small detail? I noticed it. A few other people have noticed it. Why does no one else grasp the fact that this was a deliberate choice by one person?

Who cares what he was listening to? If it had been a classical music performance, would you want to ban Mozart? If it was heavy metal, would you ban Metallica?

It does NOT matter what music was being listened to. The choice was made, regardless of anything else.


little_lebowski_urban_acheiver 12 years, 4 months ago

Ember Thanks for the GWAR lyrics, one of the great "Theatrical" acts Ive ever seen they more rocky horror picture show than anything. 1. Rap has hit a brick wall with songs like "laffy taffy" "my grill" and the best one of them all "Im in lov wit ah strippa" kinda like hair metal in the 90's at this point. 2. All music I know of is full of violence from Wilco to Johnny Cash and yes to the rappers as well. So we can stop with the blanket statements concerning hip hop gone wild 3. We have the police force trust me, they just need to get use to the night hours and they will be just fine. 4. K.C. and Topeka have so much crime they just want share a little with us.

JessicaVanek 12 years, 4 months ago

Shame on anyone who tries to blame this incident on anything BUT the individual that fired the gun.

Hong_Kong_Phooey 12 years, 4 months ago

Ember, again you missed the point of what I was saying. Obviously the music did not force this person to do this. Quit acting like you're the only one that has come to such a "profound" conclusion.

Ember 12 years, 4 months ago

HKP, I am not meaning to come across in that way. But there are entirely too many people on this forum list that is proclaiming that rap is the root of the entire problem in this situation.

Brian Baggett 12 years, 4 months ago

Now would be a good time to commend the majority of Lawrence hip hop artists who choose to flex their brain muscle vs. bragging about dealing drugs, killing, pimping etc... Not all hip hop is negative. Gangsta rap however, puts a negative lifestyle under the microscope for everyone to see therfore spreads it. I am not saying negative music pulled the trigger but it did tell this murderer that it was cool to put the gun in his pocket. Free speech is mandatory. I just wish more artists would use their unique platform to spead positivity. We might not know about the thug life in Kansas if rappers didn't put out a how to handbook on hundreds of records.

stealth 12 years, 4 months ago

all this from lawrence, who knew that all these biases lurked underneath that mild mannered progressive vibe.

hiphop is a culture, a lifestyle. Rap is but a money making, hype filled subset of the entire culture.(hype and drama sells records, right) It is also in many ways reflective of the larger environment that spawned it ie american culture.

stop for a moment to realize that tensions are running high at every level of our society right now. You could pick any fill in the blank reason for this isolated incidence of violence. hiphop, rock, ignorence, pick one

To this date there have been hundreds of peaceful, creative hiphop shows in lawrence on Mass and off. I would venture to say that more violence has occured on and around KU campus than at these shows which is not saying a lot since I don't recall any.

this is an isolated situation, all the story is not known. Some of the above comments are totally revealing of the fear based thinking that is present in many folks hearts around the nation.

Me, I'm gonna keep my heart and ears open to what the coming days will reveal in the aftermath of this tragic event.

"Love cancels fear" peace

avetaysmom 12 years, 4 months ago

As sad as this is, It is not a surprise, but "entertainment" will go on no matter what so I think the city does need to invest more money into officers and security in the downtown area instead of the thousands of dollars spent on stupid topics like where people are spending there money, here or in KC, and if they would look at there F*** ups more and realize that for some, this may be the only "entertainment" that they get to see. Hey, commissioners as you live in your large house in west lawrence, or remodeled home in "historic lawrence" consider the source, and maybe this happened because this town only cares about the rich and how to help them keep getting richer.

Ember 12 years, 4 months ago

I have read those reports a few times, usually because I was hard up for a good laugh, Plumber.

It's all well and good to say this caused it, or that caused it, but when you get down to the brass tax of the entire issue, we are too touchy-feely when it comes to handling our youth these days.

The Hand of Knowledge is not being applied to the Seat of Learning nearly enough.

Look at how society has changed in the last 50 years. Look at what all is tolerated that would never have been, and what is no longer tolerated that was once commonplace. I know that I was never allowed to scream in stores or restaurants simply because I didn't get my way about something. I got smacked for it.

Parents are not parenting anymore. Parents are breeding factories these days, and simply don't, or refuse to, take the time to talk with their kids.

Bring back corporal punishment in schools. Allow parents to do it as well. Tell busy bodies to mind their own business when you do it, too.

Heavy metal has always had a violent tilt to it, and I have listened to it for as long as I can remember. It doesn't make me want to go out and reenact the lyrics. I've played quite a few video games as well, and yet I don't emulate any of them in my life.

Marilyn Manson said it best in a song from the Matrix, amusingly enough.

"God is in the TV"

It's not video games and it is not music that is making out children turn into that old Skid Row song.

"We are the youth gone wild"

Lack of direct parenting, lack of imparted morals and most of all, a lack of respect for authority and our fellow man/woman are teh roots of these problems.

It's time we blame ourselves and not everything else in the universe for our shortcomings when it comes to our kids. That and a lack of direct punishments for their crimes. But that is a different rant for another time.

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