December 11, 2006
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To the editor:
After hearing Michael Behe, a patriarch of "intelligent design," speak to the sparse audience at Kansas University, it was clear that not only is ID not supported by scientific data, it is also immoral. For it is one thing to explain to a person afflicted by a genetic defect such as Down syndrome, genetic blindness, birth defects and so forth, that there was a mutation in nature, but it is quite another to tell this individual that a grand "intelligent designer" purposefully made a "mistake" (Behe's label) on them. What a morally and socially irresponsible belief system.
Of course, in practicality, this ID-ology in a designer and any belief in an omnipresent theistic or supernatural being is left limp when one gives thoughtful consideration to why one would praise or worship such a designer that would design, for example, excruciatingly painful conditions for individuals.
Mr. Behe acknowledged that a number of things exist in the universe that are consistent with an "UNintelligent design" and it was a slippery slope for him to know where the cut-off might come between "intelligent" and "unintelligent" design. Maybe his BEHEmaker has chosen him or coded his DNA to be able to decipher the answers about the development of all life matter, and this will not only provide relief from the anxiety of us not knowing everything but end the motivation for any further productive scientific inquiry.
Brenda Frei,
Lawrence
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11 December 2006
at 6:55 a.m.
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budwhysir (Anonymous) says…
not sure what this is about or what it means.
11 December 2006
at 7:32 a.m.
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budwhysir (Anonymous) says…
That clears it up for me. Thanks
11 December 2006
at 8:18 a.m.
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gr (Anonymous) says…
“but it is quite another to tell this individual that a grand “intelligent designer” purposefully made a “mistake” (Behe's label) on them.”
and the alternative is that defects are intended?
11 December 2006
at 8:27 a.m.
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budwhysir (Anonymous) says…
OOPs now I am confused again please explain your thoughts GR
11 December 2006
at 8:36 a.m.
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werekoala (Anonymous) says…
gr-
“and the alternative is that defects are intended?”
No, the alternative is that it was neither a mistake nor a choice, because there is no great Author meticulously planning each and every itieration of life.
That's the problem with a personal, intervening, present-day miracle-working God. He doesn't get to make mistakes, and you have to justify the good and the bad. So if you're going to thank God when the Chiefs win, you also have to blame him for their performance yesterday.
11 December 2006
at 8:38 a.m.
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mommaeffortx2 (Anonymous) says…
I'm with budwhysir.
11 December 2006
at 8:40 a.m.
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jonas (Anonymous) says…
werekoala: No, that's why you invent an adversary. For the chiefs, I'm thinking it's name is probably the great Yawle Nhoj, demon of making pro-athletes look stupid.
11 December 2006
at 9 a.m.
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budwhysir (Anonymous) says…
JONAS > now im realy confused are the cheifs playing today????
11 December 2006
at 9:01 a.m.
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75x55 (Anonymous) says…
Brenda, you present a simplistic straw man argument. You presume that “mistakes” are 'made' vs. 'allowed'.
11 December 2006
at 9:14 a.m.
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jonas (Anonymous) says…
AAAHHH, no need to shout! It's far too late to help the chiefs exorcise their demon for this weeks game, as it happened yesterday. But, if asked, I can attempt to cast my white magic touchdown dance and distract the mighty, evil, horseteethed Yawle Nhoj for next the next game, if someone could tell me who we're playing and where it's happening.
11 December 2006
at 9:19 a.m.
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ControlFreak (Anonymous) says…
It all goes back to how do you scientifically test the mind of a god?
Who really is that arrogant? So what if there is a “great maker” or an “intelligent designer”? What difference does that make? You can't test it, because it is a god.
Scientific principles seek to understand how the world functions. Why is it so difficult for people to except that science is one way to understand the universe?
There does not have to be a division. Let religion help explain what happens to the spirit and let science explain what happens to the physical body. I believe Pope John Paul II said this (could be wrong on which pope).
11 December 2006
at 9:22 a.m.
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gr (Anonymous) says…
wk,
Do you not believe there's an Evil One?
11 December 2006
at 9:36 a.m.
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rhd99 (Anonymous) says…
Intelligent Design is a wishy washy way of teaching our children the basics of science at best. At worst it violates the principles of separation between church & state. You can't mix religion with a state funded entity, i.e. the public schools.
11 December 2006
at 9:38 a.m.
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gr (Anonymous) says…
So, why teach it? What is it they don't like about evolution that is being taught? In other words, why is what they're objecting to, is needed to be taught?
11 December 2006
at 9:41 a.m.
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jonas (Anonymous) says…
“In other words, why is what they're objecting to, is needed to be taught?”
Can you… err… find some other, better words with which to say whatever that was?
11 December 2006
at 9:45 a.m.
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werekoala (Anonymous) says…
gr-
Sure don't. Neither did/do the Jews (seriously, go ask one). “Satan” is a concept unique to Christianity and Islam, and it was copied over from the mythology of first century BC Mithraism and the Manicheans who saw the temporal world as a vast battle ground between the sides of “good” and “evil”.
This entity also became very convenient as Christianity subsumed paganism - when there are a multitude of Gods, it's easy to see how one can be on your side and another one against you, but if there's just one high god, then you need someone to blame all the bad things on. Plus, it gave a ready explanation for who, exactly, the pagans were worshiping.
If you read the bible, you'll find there is almost no textual support for the ideas of Heaven and Hell, those are later dogma layered over it. In the Jewish tradition, Yahweh originally existed as the high God of the hebrews, among many other gods and spirits, such as are exemplified by the serpent in the Garden of Eden story. And the “adversary” in the Book of Job comes closer in the Hebrew context to meaning “prosecuting attorney” - he's acting on God's orders and behalf.
On a more practical note: I don't see any reason to believe in any magical interevntion in the modern world. Tragedy and good fortune both seemed meted out almost randomly, irregardless of their recipients religion and personal righteousness. And a wise man once said “never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.”
11 December 2006
at 10 a.m.
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rhd99 (Anonymous) says…
gr, are you saying that evolution does not need to be taught in elementary schools? If so, then how does one explain the methods used by medical schools to teach future doctors the basics? Evolution helps medical & science communities understand the make-up of bacteria that have formed & sometimes mutated into this horrific diseases. Name me one scientific journal, anywhere that uses Intelligent Design, & not evolution when they talk about how diseases. I bet you, there is no such thing as ID in these journals.
11 December 2006
at 10:45 a.m.
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bearded_gnome (Anonymous) says…
people born with what's called “birth defects” do not display some kind of mistake by the creator, in the Christian world view. granted, some who call themselves Christians (including many televangelists) hold that these are the result of lack of faith or of sin, missing the point of what Jesus taught in John 9.
as one born with a birth defect, so called, and later acquiring a major disability, I'm proud to represent the accurate Christian world view of this. we are chosen especially by God, for these differences, just as hair color and height varies too. it is utilitarian thinking to deem these “mistakes.” instead, it is very comforting knowing that this kind of difference was chosen with a greater purpose in mind. that, for example, being blind teaches people the meaning of blindness, a real world condition often used in the Bible to symbolize spiritual darkness. with no blind people, blindness would not be real and effectual as a symbol. just an example. jesus also said “the poor will always be with you.” when he could have created such that no one would be poor. however, it is part of the free will all of us have and living in a world cursed with sin.
the LTE writer is sadly misinformed on Christian doctrine and it seems some of her motivation was simply to write an intolerant antichristian smear. funny how for liberals tolerance sort of runs out quickly.
11 December 2006
at 11:01 a.m.
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jonas (Anonymous) says…
Thrak Farelle has nothing to do with athletes, as he is the demon of making elite military commanders and soldiers get randomly blindsided.
11 December 2006
at 11:04 a.m.
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jonas (Anonymous) says…
Oh, and in other news. . .
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
/slogging through my 5th 3.5 hr long streaming video finance lecture in 3 days. Someone have pity on my and let me die.
11 December 2006
at 11:28 a.m.
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jonas (Anonymous) says…
Well, when you know that, at this point in the lecture, the rather long-winded professor is going over the algebra of an equation that you've already memorized, but you don't know when he stops to skip ahead, then it's time to find a fight to start, ya'know.
Of course, I don't know why I'd even try to argue with someone who thinks Thrak Farelle is behind the ills of the chief's season.
11 December 2006
at 11:40 a.m.
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MyName (Anonymous) says…
I think you're forgetting something there B_G: Intelligent Design doesn't claim to be Christian. In fact, the LTE writer doesn't even mention Christianity.
ID claims that there is a designer, but doesn't claim to know anything about the designer and gives no explanation for why “mistakes” occur. In fact, there are alot of other things that Intelligent Design fails to give an explanation for but is explained by Evolution, though that's another post entirely.
Anyways, I think the LTE writer has a point, but could have explained it better.
11 December 2006
at 12:50 p.m.
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gr (Anonymous) says…
wk: “That's the problem with a personal, intervening, present-day miracle-working God. He doesn't get to make mistakes, and you have to justify the good and the bad.”
That seems to suggest you believe in God.
“to meaning “prosecuting attorney” - he's acting on God's orders and behalf.”
And that God or “prosecuting attorney” causes problems”
and yet you can say, “”Satan” is a concept unique to Christianity and Islam, and it was copied over from the mythology ”?
So, it sounds like you believe in God, not in Satan, but God causes the problems in this world.
I guess I can see why you have a problem with Him.
rhd99: “gr, are you saying that evolution does not need to be taught in elementary schools? If so, then how does one explain the methods used by medical schools to teach future doctors the basics?”
You are baiting and switching. I asked what are the ID'rs objecting to. What you presented is not what they are objecting to. They are objecting to the concept that all life descended from a few individuals. How does that concept help medical schools?
11 December 2006
at 1:16 p.m.
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Lepanto1571 (Anonymous) says…
jonas and das U, you've awaken me from my nap.
Thrak Farelle? Yawle Nhoj? Oh please. Your tribes gods are wusses!
You must immediately bow down on bended knee and repent of your blasphemies immediately to Thor and Woden (Odin for you Saxon-type sissies out there) lest ye be smitten by the thunder and war hammer of my very superior and most excellent gods!
Cease your blasphemies and turn toward the path of righteousness of plunder and conquest. Ye have been warned my brothers, hear what I have said.
That's about all that needs to be offerred to this most unremarkable discussion.
11 December 2006
at 1:24 p.m.
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werekoala (Anonymous) says…
gr -
“god” is like “love” - very short words that can mean very different things based on the context, speaker, and audience. Suffice it to say, I believe in God, but not in your God, or any other man's god.
And no, I dont have a problem with it at all. I have a problem with the small-minded folk who believe the creator of the universe shares their prejudices, tastes, and fashion sense. And I have a problem with those who confuse their own bigotry with a pipeline straight from God.
“They are objecting to the concept that all life descended from a few individuals.”
Um, I guess that's one thing that evolution teaches, sure. But it's not a cafeteria - if you want students to understand why humans share some anatomical features with all other animals, and the closer you get on the evoloutionary tree as measured by both DNA and the fossil record, the more anatomical features they share, well, you need evolution to explain that one.
Put it this way - if each species was a separate creation, unique and unrelated, then there would be no good in learning human anatomy by dissecting pigs, dogs, or cats, since they would not have any relevance to each other. But they do relate and it does teach many valuable lessons. Something that throwing up your hands and saying, “I don't want to have to work to understand this, so I'll just throw up my hands and say 'God did it!”
Works for holistic healing - there's some faith-based science for you right there! Not so much if you wnat to be a real honest to god doctor.
11 December 2006
at 2:30 p.m.
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Souki (Anonymous) says…
Bearded gnome said:
“it is very comforting knowing that this kind of difference was chosen with a greater purpose in mind. that, for example, being blind teaches people the meaning of blindness, a real world condition often used in the Bible to symbolize spiritual darkness. with no blind people, blindness would not be real and effectual as a symbol.”
So, in order for sighted people to understand a metaphor, god makes some other people blind? That doesn't even make sense. If god wanted us to understand the metaphor even more accurately, would he make more of us blind?
Is that why god makes millions of children go hungry? So that I'll understand how “blessed [I am because I] hunger and thirst after righteousness”?
11 December 2006
at 3:22 p.m.
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budwhysir (Anonymous) says…
Man this is hard to follow, please slow down everyone, I am still trying to digest this big post and someone starts talking about another cheifs game. Im lost.
11 December 2006
at 4:08 p.m.
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DuQuesne (Anonymous) says…
I say again:
Proponents of ID appear to suffer a profound fear, peculiar to the small-minded. They fear that, without the over-arching protection of an agency (God) upon which to hang responsibility for their own creation and upon whose glory to hitch their destiny-wagon, they will have to fall back on their own inadequate devices to determine right from wrong. Surely, being mere humans (although claiming the apex of creation), we cannot possibly have any way to determine right from wrong without the omniscient guidance of a God - “Great Sky-Father” - who himself exhibits the manners and ethics of a spoiled child.
11 December 2006
at 9:43 p.m.
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bearded_gnome (Anonymous) says…
no, souki, you miss the point. my point was that there is a higher purpose, and I used blindness since the LTE writer did for one example. the higher point was that differences from birth, not exactly appropose to hunger, shouldn't be viewed as “good” or “bad but instead if you believe there is a Creator, then the Creator has a purpose in the differences. I did offer Jesus' quote about the poor since no one would wish to be among the poor yet He tells us they will always be among us. the lives of the poor are not without purpose and meaning. they are not less valuable because they happen to be poor.
I wrote primarily objecting to the LTE's writer invoking “mistakes” in the doctrine of a Creator to explain blindness and the other conditions she listed.
and, by the way, Paul also said he “gloried in his infirmities.” this, because they made him live closer to God and away from trusting in himself.
12 December 2006
at 8:27 a.m.
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craigers (Anonymous) says…
deformities occur as a result of sin and a fallen world.
Souki, by showing sufferring exists in the world doesn't negate a loving creator. A loving creator is there to help for those that ask and believe, not those whose sit back and throw curses because of the hand dealt to them. Each of us have problems and suffer in our lives but our struggles and the way we react to them are what makes us who we are. We would be arrogant to say that we would be really strong individuals if we never suffered any type of adversity.
Spiritual issues are very real as are demonic influences and spirits. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
13 December 2006
at 8:20 a.m.
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craigers (Anonymous) says…
anxious, whether it's the modern world or not doesn't negate the truth. When you have seen people possessed by demons, along with the only cure being that you pray for them in the name of Jesus, you know it's true. Some will never believe, oh well.