Archive for Wednesday, August 30, 2006

Prohibition’s last gasps

Thanks to a legislative change, McLouth has joined the cities where liquor is sold

August 30, 2006


— In the state that spawned the hatchet-wielding temperance champion Carry Nation, Prohibition has had a longer legacy than almost anyone could imagine.

Now, 125 years after Kansas became the first state to adopt a constitutional amendment banning alcohol sales, Prohibition is drawing its last gasps.

Today, there are only four "dry" cities left in Kansas - and McLouth, population 849, is no longer among them.

"McLouth used to be so small we had to share the town drunk with Oskaloosa. Now maybe we'll have one of our own," longtime resident Paul Shirey said.

On Aug. 1, Charles Karmann opened the first liquor store in this Jefferson County town that anyone can remember. And business has been good since day one, when 11 people stood in line waiting for the doors to open, the owner said.

Customer Artie Owen set a bottle of vodka on the counter Tuesday and prepared to hand over her money.

Charles Karmann's liquor store is the first of its kind in McLouth, which until Aug. 1 was a dry town. Karmann, pictured sorting bottles Tuesday, said his store has been met locally with support and opposition.

Charles Karmann's liquor store is the first of its kind in McLouth, which until Aug. 1 was a dry town. Karmann, pictured sorting bottles Tuesday, said his store has been met locally with support and opposition.

"I'm glad you guys are here," the McLouth woman told Karmann. "I used to have to drive over to Oskaloosa to buy liquor."

Quiet change

Like many Kansas cities since the state repealed Prohibition in 1948 and replaced it with the less inclusive Liquor Control Act, McLouth retained an ordinance preventing the sale of liquor. There were 46 dry Kansas counties as recently as 1998.

But changes made by the Kansas Legislature during the last two years to a number of liquor laws left a legal opening for liquor stores to open in previously dry cities unless action was taken by municipal governments to stop them.

One change in the law stated that effective Nov. 15, 2005, all cities became "wet," and Kansas Alcohol Beverage Control could issue retail liquor store licenses to qualified applicants. To remain dry, a city had to adopt a new ordinance sometime between Nov. 15, 2005, and Feb. 15, 2006, prohibiting retail liquor stores.

Only four cities have notified ABC that they have taken action to be dry, director Tom Groneman said. They are Overbrook, Moundridge, Parkerville and North Newton.

Karmann took advantage of McLouth's failure to adopt a new ordinance.

"The law had changed, and it just made sense to do it," he said. He also pointed out that the store is a new business for a town that could use more commerce to bring in tax dollars.

Karmann left his job at Standard Beverage Corp. in Lawrence to run the liquor store he owns with his wife, Amanda. It is next to a video store he and his parents already operated.

Liquor law mellows with age

1851: Maine is the first state to pass Prohibition. 1880: Kansas is the first state to outlaw through a constitutional amendment the sale and manufacture of alcohol. 1919: National Prohibition amendment passes. 1933: U.S. repeals the Prohibition amendment. 1937: The Kansas Legislature loosens liquor laws to allow sale of 3.2 beer. 1948: Kansas repeals statewide Prohibition. 1965: The Kansas Legislature acts to legalize "bottle clubs" operating illegally by passing the private club law. 1979: A Kansas attorney general's opinion leads to passage of a law allowing the sale of liquor by the drink in private clubs. 1986: The state passes liquor by the drink, county option. That year, only 39 of the state's 105 counties approve liquor by the drink. Most of the state remains dry. 2002: Unified Government of Wyandotte County and city of Edwardsville pass charter ordinances allowing Sunday sales of liquor. 2005: Legislature repeals the statewide ban on Sunday sales. All cities become "wet" unless they adopt an ordinance banning liquor stores by Feb. 15, 2006. Now: Only four dry cities remain in Kansas.

Sources: Kansas State Historical Society, Kansas Department of Revenue and the Kansas Collection

Web site:

A petition

State law still allows for cities like McLouth to ban retail liquor stores, but it must be by public vote.

A petition is being circulated in McLouth to bring the matter to a vote in November. It must be signed by at least 69 registered voters to get the question on the ballot.

People are asked if they want to be able to vote "yes" or "no" on whether the following resolution should become a city ordinance:

"No retailer's license shall be issued for premises within the city of McLouth, Kansas, for the sale at retail of alcoholic liquor in the original package."

Karmann said he is confident that if the issue goes to a vote, he will win.

Unheard voices

Sherry Alterman said she typed up the petition and had collected more than 69 names so far. She hopes to collect 100 signatures before turning in the petition.

Alterman also is the director of Celebrate Recovery, a program for people trying to overcome bad habits, including drinking problems. Because she has seen the problems alcohol can cause, Alterman said she doesn't agree with drinking. The voters, however, should have their say, she said.

"McLouth has been dry for years," Alterman said. "I feel like it needs to go to a vote because all the voices have not been heard."

Though Alterman operates the nondenominational recovery program out of McLouth Church of the Nazarene, the church is not taking sides or campaigning against having a liquor store, the Rev. David Showalter said.

"I don't think, personally, it is a church issue at all," he said. "It's a community issue. I think a lot of people in the community want to voice their opinion."

At the same time, Showalter said he certainly isn't a proponent of alcohol.

"I don't think there are any redeeming qualities to the alcohol industry," he said. "I think the alcohol industry produces more heartache and pain than produces joy, peace and health."

Despite the petition, the new liquor store doesn't seem to have riled up many people in town.

"I don't drink, but it doesn't matter to me. I'm neutral," longtime resident Shirey said.

At 18, Joel Gill can't buy liquor, but he is quick to note that if it goes to a vote, he is eligible to cast a ballot.

"I couldn't care less," Gill said of the issue. "It's just a liquor store. If you want it, buy it. If you don't, don't buy it."


geekin_topekan 11 years, 6 months ago

We are still living in prohibition.What the heck are they talking about? Legalize Gonjah!!

Kuku_Kansas 11 years, 6 months ago

Congratulations McLouth...

...and welcome to the 21st Century!!!!!!!!

Now, have a drink. On me.

Bobbi Walls 11 years, 6 months ago

Having lived in McLouth, for awhile, I am glad that Charles opened a liquor store.. if this does go to a vote, and it passes, not only will they lose the revenue from the liquor store, but many other businesses have also threatened to close.. This is the best thing that could have happened to such a small town..

angel4dennis 11 years, 6 months ago

Living in McLouth currently and an active citizen of the town, I totally disagree. This store is very close to a pre-school and daycare center. The teens hang out on main street and we all know there are those out there willing to purchase alcohol for minors, no matter what steps are taken to prevent it. I am not necessarily against the store being here, more against the way it was done. We that live inside the city limits were not notified of such a business coming in. This was not right. If it goes to a vote and the town agrees to keep it, then that will be the end of the discussion for me. I wish no ill toward their store or a personal vedeta against the Karmanns, they are great people. It was the way things were handled that concerns me. I also drink and it would be hypocritical of me to just scream shut it down. Processes are in place and the mayor that left, I do not beleive was completely honest about no knowing what was coming. At any rate, as far as I know there are almost 100 signatures so it will be coming to a vote.

acg 11 years, 6 months ago

I live in lake dabinawa, and the mailing city is mclouth. I had no idea that up til 8/1 McLouth was a dry city. I get my booze wholesale at a friend's place so I never had a reason to look for a liquor store in McLouth. How crazy! Dry city? I didn't think anyone did that anymore. And I'm impressed with the fact that someone found a reason to give us the cliche "think of the children" line of crap on this topic. Come on, grow up! I went to school in Oskie and McLouth and Oskie are the same type of town. Everyone knows everyone else. Everyone knows everyone's kids. I doubt very seriously there's going to be a problem with folks buying booze for children just because there's a liquor store there. That's pretty alarmist, isn't it?

gr 11 years, 6 months ago

What's wrong with buying booze for children? Isn't it a "legal" substance? Age doesn't affect the ability of swallowing a drink as age does affect the ability of driving a car. If something is safe, legal, and harmless, what does a birthday have to do with it? In fact, children younger than 15 should be encouraged to drink since they can't drive, anyway.

As long as it doesn't kill more than 120 (Americans) each day.

oldgoof 11 years, 6 months ago

"I am not necessarily against the store being here, more against the way it was done. We that live inside the city limits were not notified of such a business coming in."

What does that mean? What kind of notice should be given, and why should this be different than a person opening any other type of store? Obviously you learned about it so notice was given. Word of mouth in McClouth I am sure is faster than any newspaper or newsletter anyway.

Bobbi Walls 11 years, 6 months ago

The daycare is owned, by the Nazarene Church, and as far as kids hanging out on Main Street, I was one of them when I went to school there. I know that we used to drink alcohol, that we got in Oskie and Tongie. I have a 2nd grader, and a 1 year old, and I don't understand the big deal. My parents still live and work in McLouth, and have been told by numerous other residents, and businesses that they will leave if this city does not change it's ways. I think that what Jim Schonherr did before leaving as mayor, is great.. By the way, for those of you in McLouth, did you realize that you never vote for the mayor????? What is that all about..... I go to church in McLouth also, and will no longer be attending our church as it has gotten way to involved in this matter. The sales tax that the liquor store will generate, will help to lighten the load for the citizens paying for the new water tower... It will help fix streets, bring new businesses to town, give the kids more oppurtunities for things to do, not drinking, but build a better community center, etc... Also, did you know that none of the stores in McLouth sell lottery tickets, because of the same group that is trying to get the liquor store banned??? Also, those of you that live in McLouth go to City Hall and ask to read the laws governing the town.. Some of them may surprise you. I think it would be great if Caseys, Bartletts, Hometown Foods, and Gambinos would sell beer and other drinks. I do know that the only person that cannot sell alcohol is the owner of BP since he is too close to the church that he is a deacon of, and he is also the new county commissioner....

gr 11 years, 6 months ago

"The sales tax that the liquor store will generate, "

Does that mean, no matter how good or how evil, if something generates taxes, then the validity of such action should not be questioned?

Is generating taxes, the all important thing to consider?

"will help to lighten the load for the citizens paying for the new water tower..."

Why was there a new water tower - because more people were moving in? When will it stop?

heaven2muchfun 11 years, 6 months ago

Where EXACTLY will the liquor store sales tax go???

WILL IT: Lower the "City Of McLouth" city bills? Lower the Jefferson County personal property? Lower the amount of taxes being charged for the school? Pay for the new water tower? Pay for improved streets? Pay for a new Community Center, Youth Center, etc., etc., etc.

Does anyone care??? I DO!!!!

I love my community!!!

It's funny to me that ANYONE thinks that it's because of any church that there aren't lottery tickets being sold in McLouth. NO CHURCH anywhere writes the laws, rules and regulations.

betti81 11 years, 6 months ago

"NO CHURCH anywhere writes the laws, rules and regulations."

you are nieve (sp?) if you actually believe this statement.

heaven2muchfun 11 years, 6 months ago

What church writes the state's, counties, city's laws, rules and regulations betti81??? Please enlighten me.

betti81 11 years, 6 months ago

look at the laws...if you can honestly say none of them are based on laws and foundations of churches and their doctrine, then I am wasting my time.

while a church may not do the word-for-word writing of the laws, their influence and doctrine still "write" many laws.

(oh, and its naive...dang it I wish I could spell ;)

kimmer 11 years, 6 months ago

I am glad to see that McLouth has finally grown up and gotten a liquor store. There were alot of people driving to nearby towns to get their liquor. At least now they only have a few blocks to drink and drive, instead of miles

heaven2muchfun 11 years, 6 months ago

It is legal to drink IT IS ILLEGAL TO DRINK AND DRIVE!!

acg 11 years, 6 months ago

betti is so right. These little towns out here are run by the churches. The churches may not actually write laws but they, and the elders of the churches influence many many decisions. To say that they don't is extremely naive. When I went to HS in Oskie in the early late 80's/early 90's, there was no MTV allowed via regular cable inside the city limits. Why? Because the churchy folks got together and decided it was poisoning the minds of their innocent young. I found it amusing, especially considering most of those "innocent" kids were growing dope somewhere out in the woods. Ahh, the good old days of church sponsored oppression.

Bobbi Walls 11 years, 6 months ago

betti81 wrote look at the laws...if you can honestly say none of them are based on laws and foundations of churches and their doctrine, then I am wasting my time.

while a church may not do the word-for-word writing of the laws, their influence and doctrine still "write" many laws.

(oh, and its naive...dang it I wish I could spell ;)

This is absolutely right.. The womens group, and the deacons are the ones pressing the issue. Having gone to one of the bigger churches in McLouth, I know that these things are talked about in sermons, and although the pastors claim to not be involved, why are the meetings to get this petition going and signed taking place in the basement of one of the churches? I belong to the church, that is anti alcohol, and anit lottery, and it is not my opinion, but that of the older folks in town. That is why we will be finding another church. All of the small towns, are in some way influenced by the leaders of the local churches, because those leaders are also business men and women.

Linda Endicott 11 years, 6 months ago

I doubt Sonic will ever be allowed to serve alcohol, Canadian. It is a drive-in, after all. What are you going to do, buy a drink and then leave your car there and walk home?

gphawk89 11 years, 6 months ago

I grew up in a dry KS town. I don't remember how many deaths could be attributed to people driving (drunk) to/from the nearest wet town (12 miles away) to purchase more liquor. Several horrible late-night wrecks that I can remember. Hard to say whether more people died because of that situation compared to the number who would have died had liquor been accessible locally. It's now a wet town - I guess time will tell whether that's a good or bad thing.

betti81 11 years, 6 months ago

hey acg, there still wasn't any mtv on cable in oskie when i went there some years later...

gr 11 years, 6 months ago

"I don't remember how many deaths could be attributed to people driving (drunk) to/from the nearest wet town"

So, does McLouth having liquor prevent those imbibing from driving?

With the assumption that only those within walking distance will now be able to walk and get drunk, they are paying a higher tax. With the assumption based on the majority of people responding here, most of the town will be the ones drinking. Therefore, most will be paying the higher tax.

So, if taxes is needed for all these problems that come with attracting more people, why not just tax the people more? Then, you don't have to worry about all the drunks and the issues that go with them.

ljgfelix 11 years, 6 months ago

I cannot figure out for the life of me why this liquor has so many people all riled up. Who cares? Do you think that if the liquor store closes that kids won't have people buy them liquor somewhere else? If you are worried about your child obtaining alcohol, maybe you should watch your child a little closer. There is alot of self righteousness going on around here, and maybe some folks should just focus on more important things, such as promoting our school and our library and other things within our town. Hello? What gives any of us the right to judge others and decide what each other can and cannot do? Live and let live. Unless the Karmann's start shoving beer down our throats, I believe this is still America, where we do have our freedom and the choice to just say no. Isn't it?

angelofmine 11 years, 6 months ago

Tonganoxie banned MTV as well. When I graduated (10 years ago) it was still banned. Somewhere between then and now they've allowed it in. We've always had several liquor stores, though.

I don't see Sonic selling alcoholic beverages here anytime soon. Louisiana....particularly New are allowed to purchase alcoholic drinks through the drive through. I believe the rule was....(HA) long as the driver doesn't receive a straw. There was a place called 'Daquiri Stop' that had several locations. Thirty-some flavors of daquiris, with drive through convenience. Now that's service!

davisnin 11 years, 6 months ago

The church writing the laws? The church is the PEOPLE in it. In a town McLouths size the people in the church are probably the majority of the voters. The majority decides (to some extent) the laws. So if the people want a dry town... with a seven minute drive for booze... it's their choice. I forgot, church goers are ignorant and their opinions are backwards, silly me. Of course I'm just a victim of the determinism of Godless physics, so never mind.

ljgfelix 11 years, 6 months ago

This whole thing reminds me of the movie "Footloose" where there was a law against dancing. Is that what's next in Mc Louth? Or how about telling Karmann's video store, Casey's and the Library that they can only carry "g" or "pg" rated movies. Wait, I know, I know..Businesses in Mc Louth can no longer sell ciggaretts or caffinated beverages, because both contain addictive substances. Boom, there you have it folks!
I have a worth while cause for people in the area to spend time on...How about the folks coming into town from Lawrence and Oskie and people leaving out towards those places who don't seem to realize or care about the speed limit there? Very few people actually go 35, like they are supposed to. I have gone to city council and apparently nothing can be done about it until someone (most likely a child) has been hit and hurt or killed. How about that cause, folks? Sounds alot more like that issue needs addressed than worrying about a liqour store. A store downtown minding it's own business...who does that hurt? Careless people speeding down the highway mowing down our children and pets hurts us all.

armyguy 11 years, 6 months ago

If I were Vince of Angel's Liquor and bait in the middle of Tongi and Mclouth (who lives in Mclouth) I would give a large donation to the chruchs who oppose it's sale in town.

BOE 11 years, 6 months ago

I don't see what's wrong with having a vote, to at least settle the issue.

That said, the people that want liquor are going to get it, regardless. Why make people spend time and ga$ to drive to another town so they can dump tax $'s out of town?

They're still going to come back with the liquor, right?

Though I'm sure that several will continue to drive out of town ( the town I grew up in was small enough, that several church goers always went over to the next town for their purchases anyway...for some reason ;) ), I don't see how punishing people willing to buy it in town, will do much to reduce booze consumption.

Is McClouth so dry that it doesn't have beer at convenience stores?

Isn't beer usually the drink of choice for most under-aged drinkers?

Why would teens have anybody get their beer for them from liquor stores, when they're typically $2-$5/case higher, than convenience stores?

angel4dennis 11 years, 6 months ago

To clear this up since the newspaper obviously didn't report the entire truth, the petition was not started at the Nazarene Church. Sherry Alterman is the church secretary. She typed the petition up for the others who got together and got this going. Yet I see no where that the reporter said that. Anyway, I do go to the Nazarene Church and am there every Sunday. There was never a sermon mentioning this. I didn't know about it until I saw the sign go up on main street. At any rate, this proves my point, the town folk were not notified. So if this makes me a hypocritic, a do-gooder, a henny penny or whatever all the others think of me, then God Bless me for doing my job. I shall be judged by one God only, not those on the forum of a newspaper. Just as I am not judging others.

" Louisiana....particularly New are allowed to purchase alcoholic drinks through the drive through. I believe the rule was....(HA) long as the driver doesn't receive a straw. There was a place called 'Daquiri Stop' that had several locations. Thirty-some flavors of daquiris, with drive through convenience. Now that's service!"

You saw what happened there. It is very sad and my heart and money goes out to those people. I have attended many fund raisers for New Orleans and helped with one last year. I am not going to mud sling anyone here and I demand the same respect.The opinions on this forum are just opinions. There are 849 opinions that matter to me, those that live inside the city limits of the town affected by this. I love my "Little Town on the Prairie".

Bobbi Walls 11 years, 6 months ago

McLouth has only allowed alcohol sales outside of city limits.. Cooks was the only place within 3 miles to buy 3.2 beer. I was not talking about the Nazarene Church having sermons about it, but there are other ones in town, and I belong to one of the other, as do my parents. I will venture to guess that this does pass, and those opposed to it, will still continue to fight about it, and say how it is morally wrong for the community. I do agree about the speeders though.. McLouth does need a better police force, and I know all of the cops there, and am not saying anything bad. I lived on K16 next to Jims Garage, and was always worried about my kids in the yard....

taxpayingcitizen 11 years, 6 months ago

The Karmann's did not do this underhandedly. They opened in it the same way anyone else did a business in Mclouth. Did anyone give notice to open Gambino's or did they ask for permission from the town? I didn't get the memo for the town meeting to decide on the new tire shop opening. Besides there was a banner on their building for 3 weeks or so.

People that are against the liquor store keep crying that they should have had a choice. THEY ALREADY DO!!!! You can choose to shop there or choose not to, just like you can choose to get a Video at their store. I haven't heard of anybody being dragged in to the liquor store and being told that they have to buy something.

taxpayingcitizen 11 years, 6 months ago

It amazes me to know that there are people out there that are buying beer during the week and in church on Sunday persuading people to sign the petition because drinking is BAD. Lets say Hypocrite.

In comment to the liquor store being to close to the preschool (comment by angel4dennis).

Everything in the town of Mclouth is "very close". Apparently you do not know the law. The liquor store is well over the 250 feet from the school or church. The daycare and pre-school is not restricted by the state. Besides if your kids are at the daycare, there should be a responsible adult making sure they don't go anywhere.

kimmer 11 years, 6 months ago

Another point that people haven't hit on is... why didn't the city government oppose the new rule, like they had a choice to. It is up to the city commission and legal counsel to know what laws are going into effect, so why isn't anyone blaming them?

taxpayingcitizen 11 years, 6 months ago

That is correct kimmer. The city pays an attorney to keep them up-dated on issues that the state is changing.

Another issue that I have with everyone who is upset about the liquor store is why aren't the churches (that are so against liquor, which is legal) going after people that are doing drugs(meth). I believe that there was a huge drug bust across the street from the school. I believe also that there was 2 children in the house at the time of the bust. Why are we attacking the liquor store issue, when there is much larger issues at stake.

fletch 11 years, 6 months ago

Angel: if you're somehow insinuating that New Orleans got flooded because they have alcohol, then I think that officially invalidates your opinion on any matter whatsoever.

Listen, businesses don't have to notify citizens they are moving in, nor should they. This isn't Communist Russia. And we shouldn't be making a list of the types of businesses that have to notify people when they move in. If we do go down that road, I'd like a notice of any churches moving in near me so I can avoid the bad drivers on Sundays.

It all comes down to personal choice. Like the 18 year old said at the end of the article: if you want it, buy it, if you don't, don't buy it. It's not often an 18 year old hits it on the head, but he did. It seems to me that the people against the liquor store want to deny the other side the ability to make that personal choice, which is both fascist in nature and shockingly un-Christian.

I'd actually like to see this come to a vote, because some sick part of me wants to see what happens when it fails. The liquor store will close, and they'll probably close the video store as well. Some of the gas station owners have threatened to leave town, as well as some other businesses. Plus, you would have just ensured that nobody under the age of 30 particularly wants to live there. What a fun town full of retired people with no income, no entertainment, and no workforce you'll have.

Fishyfishy 11 years, 6 months ago

"Everything in the town of Mclouth is "very close". Apparently you do not know the law. The liquor store is well over the 250 feet from the school or church. "

Perhaps someone needs to check the ordinance on the required distance from the Public Library. It's just 2 doors down.

taxpayingcitizen 11 years, 6 months ago

In response to Fishyfishy

A community library is not a school or church..

Mike Ford 11 years, 6 months ago

As an unfortunate McLouth Graduate since the time of "Footloose", I've gotta laugh. The majority of this community is literally related to one another, albeit distantly. The majority of this town is of 19th century Scotch-Irish or English descent. What better reason to bring alcohol to town?

The kids I went to High School with obeyed no alcohol laws. Being from McLouth, they got a pass on their first DUI's. I have High School memories of Firebirds that reached liftoff at Highway 16 and Wellman Road, fueled by alcohol. I remember my basketball teammates who came to Saturday practice incoherent, thanks to a Friday night date with as much Coors Light as they could drink.

I remember drinking with classmates and a former H.S. teacher right in the middle of town while in high school. The fact that this place has stayed "Dry" this long is a testament to Protestant hypocracy. The people there drink anyway. the kids there drink anyway. There's nothing else to do. Heck, the few cops they have that harrassed us in high school should be happy they have a few more potential income targets as DUI's are assessed. I'm now having the laughs at this place's existence that I wanted to have when I lived there. Long live hypocracy and denial.

sickofmorons 11 years, 6 months ago

For those of you who are bringing up Mc Louth's government, I happen to know firsthand from being at one of their meetings when they were discussing the alcohol situation, they wanted to keep the whole thing hush, hush so that Karmann wouldn't know he or anyone else could legally open a liq store in town. This town is ridiculous and they really need a reality check. If the town isn't allowed to grow, it is going to DIE,, The bottom line is people should be more involved in their government, because those people need kept in line. There is too much good ol boy sneaky crap going on there, and it needs to stop.

rednecknascarfan 11 years, 6 months ago

Its about time Mclouth got a liquor store now if only the town snobs would shut up and quit bit**ing about and give it a chance.

BleedRWandB 11 years, 6 months ago

I wonder who I'd need to ask then why Casey's is all set up for the lottery but unable to sell lottery tickets? I live in McLouth and would much rather spend my money on my beer and lottery tickets in McLouth where the tax money it generates might help me lower mine and my neighbors taxes.

mommy3 11 years, 6 months ago

What the heck are you talking about? McLouth is a great town. Not much for the teenage crowd, but it is a darn good place to raise kids. People still respect each other and look out for each other. I currently live in Tonganoxie, and really miss McLouth. In Tonganoxie we have several places to buy alcohol. We also have had numerous vandalisms, several smash & grabs this year, and cars are being broken into all over. I cant say it's because of the liquor stores, but what does Tonganoxie have that McLouth doesn't.....besides Sonic! I hope they do get rid of the store in McLouth, the Karmann's are great people, but come on. As long time residents they should want to preserve the "small town." Just because the rest of the world is going to hell in a hand bag doesn't mean McLouth should jump on board. Just because it's the 21st century! Lame reasoning. Do you live your life by that statement? There is nothing to do in McLouth, but look for trouble, but the few cops they do have like Tommy (he might have to go full-time), won't have the time or energy to keep up with the crap this will bring. I used to think McLouth was safe because everyone new everyone, and you were afraid of doing something wrong in fear someone would see you. I know there are things in McLouth..drugs, drinking, meth houses, but in a "church" town, those stupid people will be more opt to hide it, in fear of rejection. If you give the "go ahead", soon they will be crawling out of wood work. I was also a long time member of the Church of the Nazarene, shame on Pastor David for not sticking up for what he believes in. Too afraid to lose those tithing dollars? Yes, church and state are seperate, but there are still a few of us in this world who actually want to raise our kids without fear, and who like seeing our neighbors in church. To those of who whinning about your bad "McLouth" experience, GROW up Apparently it just wasn't the place for you. I like the fact that people still wave at each other, and you get slowed down by the local farmer driving his John deer on 16hwy, and when you go into Caseys you still see the same cashier I've seen since I was 16. If you go to the BP you can catch up on all the local news from all the old farmers hanging out. If you don't like small town ways, stay out of McLouth. The reason it's stayed the same for all these years is because generation after generation gave a crap and protected it from people wanting to bring in trouble. Here in Tonganoxie, we have teens selling drugs at the PARK, that happens out on a dirt road in McLouth. Your teacher might drive by, or your Dad's fishing buddy might be in town. Remember when Bonnie died? You wouldn't see every church in town with a tribute to one person on their billboards, you wouldn't see almost every resident at a funeral for one person, in any other town. McLouth is a wonderful place, dont fix what ain't broken!!

classclown 11 years, 6 months ago

Reading these comments, I almost forget the discussion is about a town other than Lawrence.

Bobbi Walls 11 years, 6 months ago

mommy3, I know just how great this town is, when I was there, I was threatened because of who I was dating, and then told when I moved back after being gone a couple of months, that I could no longer attend school there.. Mrs Albrecht was a real B****.... I love the small town atmosphere, but not the backwards ways. All of my life I grew up in Tongie and McLouth, and I am in McLouth at least 3 times a week to see my parents and friends. If the city bills were not so damn high, we would still live there. My father in law still owns a farm outside of town, and we help out there as well...

Bleed, Caseys cannot sell lottery tickets, because of something to do with their handicapped parking.. I know Johanna the manager down there very well, and have been told this.

On the drugbust note across from the school, yes it did happen, and all of those people walked, was I as a parent of a school age child notified... NO!!!! The only reason I knew of it, was that a family member lived close by, my landlord, Jim Schonherr, also lived across the street and we know Tom Burns very well..(Chief of Police) for those of you who don't... The old timers, need to quit their b****ing, and start worrying about the bigger drug problem in that town.. I can name at least half the people I went to school with that are dealing out of their homes, and on the streets of McLouth... A little liquor store is not going to hurt this town, the Meth problem will. I can only imagine that if the liquor store closes, the Karmann's will all leave, and that is a shame..

To those of you that think don't fix what ain't broke, there are a lot of issues in this town, that go unnoticed... It is a good ole boys club running it, and it will only get worse if things like this are allowed to happen.. The people of McLouth will vote, and you have to remember, most of the community is rural, and will probablly vote for the liquor store... There was a time when McLouth had it all, a car dealership, more than a couple of gas stations, a lumber yard, a good grocery store, and lots more, but because this town was not for change they all came and went.

mommy3 11 years, 6 months ago

McLouth, Oh to those of you who say it will DIE...that just shows how little you know. McLouth has been the same for years and years and years. It hasn't died yet. Yes, businesses have come and gone, but it's a commuters town. I seriously doubt any of the businesses will leave. The Karmanns have had that store for too long. Mr. Edmunds.....I don't see that happening! Well, again! Yes, at one time McLouth was a thriving town. A LONG time ago, but it wasn't because of change.....the rail road left! We can't bring that back, huh? The good ole boy's have been running the town FOREVER, yes there are some things that get pushed aside becasue someone new somebody important. Hey, did you know that if you get a speeding ticket in McLouth, it doesn't go on your record? Just a note. Anyways, You keep talking like it will all come to an end, but it's been this way FOREVER. The town and outlining country side is growing very fast......I don't see death in the future for McLouth just becasue they don't want a liquor store.

sickofmorons 11 years, 6 months ago

Oh mommy3 you are SO right...McLouth won't die, but it will surely become a retirement community, because all of the young people will be lining up to leave this small minded twilight zone. Who wants to live somewhere where the most fun thing to do on a Friday night is cow tipping? and about getting the "local news" at the gas station? I think you mean the latest GOSSIP. And as for the Nazarenes? What do they know about what is good for McLouth? Those people don't even celebrate Halloween. Now tell me, what is so wrong about letting your kids trick or treat? Tell me.

prioress 11 years, 6 months ago

"this long is a testament to Protestant hypocracy. The people there drink anyway. the kids there drink anyway. There's nothing else to do." +++++++ Much of this is teenage culture and angst. I remember a study from 20+ years ago which I bet is still relevant. Teens from across the country were surveyed. Most said, "There is nothing to do here but drive around, hang out and drink." The results were similar in towns like McLouth, Chicago, Los Angeles, Memphis Tenn, etc. Feeling like there is "nothing to do" is part of adolescence. Fortunately, growing up, getting a job and having all one's free time and money consumed by survival takes care of much of this.

Bobbi Walls 11 years, 6 months ago

sickofmorons is right... What you hear at Donnies, is all gossip from the busybodies in McLouth that have nothing better to do. What is wrong with Halloween??? Oh by celebrating halloween, you believe in the devil.. What a bunch of BS... You are also right, that it will become a retirement spot. Most of the kids my age that live there are 2nd or 3rd generation that are living in grandmas house or one that was given to them.. If they had to choose, they would have left after graduation. We are thinking about moving back, when our oldest starts Junior High, but only if some things in this town change. And no McLouth will not die, but it will lose it's appeal. When we lived there, I hated that everyone in town knew my business, and most of the higher ups that live there, were born into their positions....I think McLouth needs a change, it would be good for everyone involved, and I don't mean just the liquor store. They need a more affordable grocery store, they need to realize that not everyone in the town has money, and in order to keep those people there and the population growing, they need to make some changes. There are way more issues in this town, than alcohol, and if you have ever been there you know what I am talking about. The one thing I miss, is the old gazebo downtown, where my husbands granpa used to sit on Friday and Saturday nights, and tell stories with his buddies, why did they not fix it up??? Why not put a park in there again??? People in McLouth only care about themselves and not what is good for the whole community,,,,,,,

Bobbi Walls 11 years, 6 months ago

I am curious to know why McLouth is so special that when you get a speeding ticket, it is not reported, and does not show on your record... I thought this was a law, that all towns followed... Maybe something should be changed about that too. It just tells people go ahead and speed here all you get is the fine, and no long term punishment such as increased insurance rates...

Bobbi Walls 11 years, 6 months ago

Did you know there are flyers being passed around town, saying why the liquor store is good??? But one gas station is not passing them out, because he does not want people to know the truth

ljgfelix 11 years, 6 months ago

So if you get a speeding ticket in Mc Louth it doesn't go on your record? Well maybe that is the reason why people still speed. No consequences for your actions leads to not giving a crap about what you do until it's too late.

Bobbi Walls 11 years, 6 months ago

very true... it's no wonder the kids peeling out of the high school don't care... and neither do many of their parents..

sickofmorons 11 years, 6 months ago

Sounds like this little town called McLouth is full of sanctimonious @%#holes who need a serious reality check. Lets see, so far people have brought up meth houses, speeding problems, crooked government, overpriced grocery stores, people not letting their kids trick or treat, and I am sure that is just the tip of the iceberg, but they are worried about a little liquor store? GET OVER IT!! You all deem to have alot more very serious issues that need fixed, and alot of things that need to change. Maybe the younger generation needs to get up off of their butts and make themselves heard and known. Get involved in your government and town and get these issues addressed and start making some changes. You have the power to do it if you would just take the initiative and don't be afraid. This town needs a good shaking up, and it looks like it just might happen. Thank You, Charles and Amanda Karmann for taking a stand and opening up your store because you wanted to and not being afraid to stand up to these "good 'ol boys" as everyone calls them. Good for you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now, who's next??????

Bobbi Walls 11 years, 6 months ago

Right on.... If I still lived there, I was gonna run for mayor, since there is never really an election...

mommy3 11 years, 6 months ago

We live on the out skirts of town for 20 years and my parents kept to them selfs. No one knew my buisness. Also, when I moved back with my own family, no one knew what I didn't want them to know. That's your own fault. Plenty of the Nazarene kids trick or treat. We lived on Harker st. and did it. We handed out candy to plenty of families we went to church with. Yes, you should get involved, but with that brings the small town "gossip"! For those of you not living in McLouth, you get a first speeding ticket, then if you do it again you get it reported to Oski court house, then it goes on your record. My little brother is a testament to that. My first time.....Oh, Tommy caught me driving through the stop sign by the bus barn, about two days after I got my license, he gave me warning. I tell you though, I was so intimidated by him that I watched it from then on. Yes, I miss the gazebo too. However, I don't beleive that the town is full of retired folks, and it has been the same for years, what makes you feel would make it "less" appealing? People who chose to live there, the majority are the onse that want a great place to raise their kids. My old neighbors were great, I loved going over to there house and hearing about the "old days", His family owned almost 300 acres north of town, and they aquired it when his Great Grandpa built a small stone house for a family. They paid him with land. I used to love to hear stories of the old church that sat on the corner of Union, and 92 hwy. The big tree that used to sit at the end of town. Thats not Gossip. It taught me to respect my elders. If you think things are worse in McLouth, you should get the book at the library that tells some history behind it. It has always been a generations town, and No they haven't been open to change. That has kept McLouth a safe, quiet town for years and years.

Bobbi Walls 11 years, 6 months ago

Intimidated by Tommy...hehehe... I got pulled over coming home from work at RJ's Grub, because I was driving on a restricted. He told me to go on home, because he didn't want a sheriff to stop me.. Not because I shouldn't be out driving.. I did not make my business known, but somehow everyone that knew me and my family knew what was going on in our home and with our kids.. My daughter will be playing ball up there this next summer though.. Our family has land outside of town also, and has for the last 60 years, I have about the good ole days, and know also what this town used to be like...

On another note.. why let beer be sold at threshing bee grounds, I know it is outside of city limits, but what is the difference.. there are kids at the tractor pulls, and derbies... And ususally the beer garden is across from the Kiwanis trailer, and is staffed by local residents.. What is the difference... let's sell beer at an event that people have to drive home from, while the local police are waiting to nab you outside the gates, because you are drinking and driving...

gr 11 years, 6 months ago

"What a fun town full of retired people with no income, no entertainment, and no workforce you'll have."

"If the town isn't allowed to grow, it is going to DIE,, "

"Its about time Mclouth got a liquor store"

Alcohol is entertainment? Grows a town? 'This town was founded upon poisoning people's brain cells - It was very entertaining to watch, though.'

"A little liquor store is not going to hurt this town, the Meth problem will."

And I'm sure studies would show that most Meth users started on alcohol. Why not have a Meth store on main street?

"There was a time when McLouth had it all, a car dealership, more than a couple of gas stations, a lumber yard, a good grocery store, and lots more, but because this town was not for change they all came and went."

How does bringing in a store dealing in drugs help with those things?

"all of the young people will be lining up to leave this small minded twilight zone."

Not doing drugs is a "small minded twilight zone"?

"And no McLouth will not die, but it will lose it's appeal. " No drugs - No appeal?

"People in McLouth only care about themselves and not what is good for the whole community,,,,,,,"

And the community is........?

How does allowing a store to sell alcohol help the community? Yah, generates taxes. So increase the mill levy. How does allowing a "drug" store, rather than another store which generates taxes, of benefit to McLouth?

What benefit has drinking a toxic drug done anyone?

Bobbi Walls 11 years, 6 months ago

Oh and a great place for kids, maybe now, but when I was in school there, the only people that were accepted were those that played sports, and if you didn't, you were a loser. Also, coming in my sophomore year was really hard, because people looked at me like an outcast, even though I tried to be friends with everyone. Things were really hard, and half of the staff were the problems....

Bobbi Walls 11 years, 6 months ago

There is no longer a drug store in McLouth, the only things left are the bank, Moores construction, the dance studio, 2 hair salons, the library, a realtor, gambinos, the flower shop, 2 restaurants, 2 gas stations, 3 churches, the daycare, the tire shop, and the garage... I may have forgot one or two, like the medical clinic, but that is all that is going on in this town... I am surprised they allowed Gambinos to open...

mommy3 11 years, 6 months ago

Pat Burke started the whole beer at the threshing bee. Because the land is outside city limits. Well, I'm not sure about the entire land, but I do know the spot of the beer being sold at the Threshing bee was very important. The stand had to be out side city limits, or something to that effect. Tommy, knew I just got my liscense. It was being pulled over that was intimidating, not really Tommy. When Sarah Fisher sold the Gambinos to the new operators, it was because there was not enough business for her. I'm not sure how it is going for the new owners, but I doubt it has anything to do with the liquor store. If not allowing a liquor store in the town, is whats stopping growth....what kind of people our we wanting to bring into McLouth? I don't think a liquor store is going to help those of you wanting to turn McLouth into a city, instead of a small home town. I'm sorry you had a rough time at the school. I didn't go to school there, so I can't say anything about that. But as far as raising kids there, I do know that it is a great place. Living in Tonganoxie, I rethink my choices about if I should let the kids playing outside alone all the time. Things are getting bad here, and growth is the problem.

noworries 11 years, 6 months ago

Liquor doesn't make people commit crimes or go on to doing meth and other things. People make their own decisions. Not alcohol. Just get over it. And this town IS full of gossip. Take this for example...Earlier there was a mention of a meth house bust across the street from the elem. school in McLouth where 2 small children were taken out of. Well, did you know that the mother went to jail for 2 years, NEVER was charged with child endangerment or lost custody of her children, the father is a known meth head whose mother is a well known citizen of McLouth and works at one of the 2 gas stations in town, and the mother is out of jail and once again has her children. But who cares about a couple of babies with meth heads for parents. Lets storm the liquor store and run them out of town with our pitchforks and torches!!! And to dbrm4ever, just to let you know, the Library may soon be scratched off of your list, because from the "gossip" I have been hearing around town, the city is not giving the Library nearly as much monetary support as it can or should be, so they may be closing here pretty soon. Hey McLouth, get your heads out of your butts and try to find a more worthwhile cause to get behind. In the meantime I am going to speed around town since I know there will be no consequences and visit some of the many known meth houses, get high and jump on the Nazarene bandwagon and not let my kids trick or treat on Halloween. Instead, we are going to go into the liquor store and buy all of the kids beer and then, I am going to start a petition that you have to be at least 65 to live in this town, everyone younger has to leave, because that IS where you are headed if you don't just stop.

thisismetoyou 11 years, 6 months ago

Wow!Listen and read all the ruckus over a simple little liquor store. What's wrong with a nice glass of wine with dinner or a good Keystone or BudLight at a backyard barbeque. I can guarantee if you drive down the very few roads in McLouth, you'll catch many of the residents with some type of alcoholic beverage in their hand, and you can be assured that if it's not a label you can read, it's in a glass/cup. Drinking on the down-low is what I call it. If it doesn't have a label, it's not alcoholic. I must admit, I attended a hog roast a few months ago and was quite surprised at the locals who were boozing it up and have a jolly ole' time.
Worrying about a simple little liquor store would be the least of my concern in a town like McLouth. Have you check out the registered sex offenders in the townWOWNow that's something to talk about. We have children who live within a two mile radius of the school who have to provide for their own transportation to and from school. We have Highway 16 which runs right through the middle of the damn town with people traveling to and from Kansas City and Topeka. Don't any of you ever worry about your child making it to and from school safely without being abducted or having a sex offender lure them in. In a matter of 20 minutes your child could be gone (I-70 is quite close). The Karmanns are just simple, small town, good people trying to may an honest dollar. Heaven forbid someone make more money than and employee/member of the Nazarene Church. Now, so all of you church members are aware, I'm not condemning any of the members of your sanctuary, but rather suggesting that we should all be more concerned about the safety and welfare of our children. A simple Petition to move sex offenders out is more logical than a Petition to close a liquor store. A sex offender can do much more damage to your family than drinking a can of beer.

thisismetoyou 11 years, 6 months ago

Cont'd:The Nazarene's Petition tactics are absurd. Put it into this prospective: You want to vote the liquor store out of the town because you don't approve of liquor sales in a small town and are afraid of the influences it may have on your children. Ok.... What about Casey's? They sell greasy, high fat, high cholesterol pizza. Don't you think it's more important to have a ban on their greasy, high fat, high cholesterol pizza than beer. Your kids, at any age can walk into Casey's and put in an order and pay for a pizza, as this has no age restrictions/limitations, take it home and eat the entire damn thing. They can't walk into a liquor store, put a case of beer on the counter and pay for that. Wow,there you have it-Pizza to clog the arteries in your heart and gain three or so pounds or beer, which they can't get their hands on.
If you're so concerned with your children's safety, then it is your duty to instill good morals within them. They are primarily influenced by the actions of their parents, not by a neon BudLight sign. However, those signs sure are bright! Now, let do a simple overview: Sex offender/abduction/heart attack or liquor store..hummm..I wonder?...Get over it the Karmann's are here to stay and thank goodness, I sick of driving 10 miles to get beer or 15 miles for wine!

heaven2muchfun 11 years, 6 months ago

I am looking forward to the November elections!

heaven2muchfun 11 years, 6 months ago

I am extremely disappointed and upset with McLouth City Hall for "sleeping on the job"! They had an opportunity between November 15, 2005 to February 15, 2006 to adopt a new ordinance that would prohibil the sale retail liquor in McLouth. It amazes me what City Hall does and does not do. It's obvious to me that it's time to get a new City Council in place.

noworries 11 years, 6 months ago

heaven2muchfun- AMEN- you hit the head on the nail!!! Yeah!!!!!!!!!

Bobbi Walls 11 years, 6 months ago

I do know the mother of the children that were taken, and the kids grandmother as well.. I have heard all of the facts, in the case and some not so true stories. My point was is there not a law that says parents must be notified of a drug bust within a certain distance to the school. There were never any letters sent home, and none of the parents were told... I agree with keeping the kids safe, and Charles and Amanda know pretty much everyone in McLouth, and I can tell you they will not sell to anyone underage. The Nazarene church members should find a better cause like keeping the library open, offering more kid friendly activities etc. Alcohol is not bad for the community.. and you all need to get over yourselves if you think it is.. It is not going to corrupt the people of McLouth, because most of the people are already getting their booze somewhere else. Why make them go to Oskie or Tongie to do it...

noworries 11 years, 6 months ago

Sounds to me like a whole town should be showing up to their next City Council meeting and finding out exactly what is going on in their town.

McLouthBusinessOwner 11 years, 6 months ago

It seems sad to me that the local churches are so consumed by a liquor store in town and that it is coming up during the sermon, last time I checked church was a place of worship, for being closer to God,not for discussing the local liquor store. The local churches should be ashamed of themselves. The small minded people of this town act as if we just legalized prostitution and opened a brothel right here in downtown McLouth. You know in the article I believe its ironic that the best thing I have heard yet was that of 18 year old Joel Gill "It's just a liquor store. If you want it, buy it. If you don't, DON'T buy it." That is really all it comes down to. I believe that the Karmann's have been through enough in the past year, let it be and like someone else voiced lets focus on the school and the community,I beleive you couldn't ask for better people to run a liquor store they know everyone and aren't going to let some underage kids purchase liquor, and as for kids buying liquor through someone else it's been going on around this town long before the liquor store came to town and it will be going on long after the vote.

BOE 11 years, 6 months ago

Posted by mommy3 on August 30, 2006 at 11:14 p.m.

" In Tonganoxie we have several places to buy alcohol. We also have had numerous vandalisms, several smash & grabs this year, and cars are being broken into all over. I cant say it's because of the liquor stores, but what does Tonganoxie have that McLouth doesn't.....besides Sonic! "


More than three times the population.

gr 11 years, 6 months ago

Do sex offenders drink alcohol?

Everyone seems to be wanting to give distractions with other problems, but the "drug" store (sellers of liquor, to spell it out for dbrm4's benefit) was not there. Now, there is an additional problem in town. If you keep adding all the problems of bigger cities, then it will no longer be a small town. If you want Lawrence in McLouth, why don't you just move to Lawrence?

"The small minded people of this town act as if we just legalized prostitution and opened a brothel right here in downtown McLouth."

Now there's a thought! Why do you think some things are just wrong, but others are ok? Would you be saying the same thing about them being "through enough" if they opened up a girlie show?

"lets focus on the school and the community,"
I believe that's what's being discussed. It's just some people think prostitution would be bad for the community and others think drugs (that's alcohol, dbrm4) would be bad for the community.

"More than three times the population." And that somehow justifies anything? The population has been increasing.

I'm surprised at the dogmatic and unqestionable support of alcohol.

Let me ask again, What benefit has drinking a toxic drug done anyone?

noworries 11 years, 6 months ago

If drinking alcohol is so toxic, maybe we should ban smoking too. Tobacco is just as bad for you, AND secondhand smoke will kill those who don't smoke also. How about that?

BOE 11 years, 6 months ago

Posted by gr on August 31, 2006 at 4:23 p.m.

" ' More than three times the population. ' "

" And that somehow justifies anything? The population has been increasing. "


It has zero to do with justifying anything.

Someone implied Tonganoxie's "several liquor stores" was a determining factor in its having a higher crime rate than McClouth, offering up the town's Sonic®/¢ as the _ only other _ difference between the two.

To accuse me of "justifying" something(???), you found it neccessary to remove the context for my comment, context which I will happily resupply.

AGAIN: = mommy3 on August 30, 2006 at 11:14 p.m.

" In Tonganoxie we have several places to buy alcohol. We also have had numerous vandalisms, several smash & grabs this year, and cars are being broken into all over.

*** I cant say it's because of the liquor stores, but what does Tonganoxie have that McLouth doesn't.....besides Sonic!
*** " = -

Regardless of the exclamation point, I still read it as a question.

What does Tonganoxie have that McLouth doesn't?

A higher population. A higher population could certainly be a contributing factor for a higher incidence of crime.

You've been off track since your very 1st post.

gr 11 years, 6 months ago


Not sure about me being off track, but I believe you are off track on this one.

Speaking of removing context, Mommy3's next sentence after your quote was: "I hope they do get rid of the store in McLouth, the Karmann's are great people, but come on."

Her other posts have been against having alcohol in the town. With that in mind, her rhetorical question of "What does Tonganoxie have that McLouth doesn't" I took to mean, since Tonganoxie has a liquor store, how does that benefit it? Therefore, McLouth having an addition of a liquor store would not likely improve it, since it already is as great as Tonganoxie....besides Sonic.

With your comment of more population, I took that to imply that having a liquor store would increase the population. But it appears I was wrong in that aspect, as in your defense response you were taking her comments out of context.

Now, I may be wrong, but you better get your context correct before accusing someone else about their context. Of course Mommy3 could shed light on what she meant.

I think you just don't like my attack on alcohol and thought you saw an opportunity to jump in.



So would you suggest, if smoking is toxic and still permitted in town, therefore we should allow other toxic things such as alcohol. Then, what about Meth, etc., etc. Just because a bad thing is there, is no reason to allow more.


Yes, I've read the news of people making a feeble attempt to justify their addiction or to increase sales. Do you think that fresh grapes may give the same benefits without the problems? And, I don't suppose the news told anything about the other health detriments alcohol causes?

For example, anyone who starts taking cyanide at a young age usually does not get hardening of the arteries - at least before they die, that is.

noworries 11 years, 6 months ago

Okay, you guys are just getting ridiculous now. GR... My suggestion of no smoking was a sarcastic response to alcohol being toxic. It was just to show how stupid some people are being here. Bottom line is IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE LIQUOR STORE, DON'T GO INTO IT. Not that hard of a concept. And for your info there are already lots of meth houses around here, which unlike alcohol ARE illeagal, so why don't you get off your high horse and try and run them out of town instead.

mommy3 11 years, 6 months ago

Ok, I'll clear up my statement. I am saying that with all that Tonganoxie has to offer.... well, I won't get into that. When a town has more to offer (let's say a liquor store)it's more appealing, it brings growth. With growth comes problems. I live in an older part of town, and even before the Speedway stuff, Tonganoxie was growing fast. The older people of the town are getting scared of the things that are happening to the town. The type of people moving in, the crimes. Why would someone move to Tonganoxie and not McLouth? They are only 10 miles apart. Tonganoxie has more to offer. Everyone keeps saying that "McLouth, citizens need to wake up, and the change will be good thing, they need to allow growth." What does growth bring? If the liquor store is the big factor in growth, then what kind of people are you hoping to come into McLouth? Did that help? The liquor stores were in Tongi way before Sonic, so I just threw that in to stop the replys of "Tongi has a Sonic!" After I ask my question, "What does Tonganoxie have that McLouth doesn't have?" Any more questions?

davisnin 11 years, 6 months ago

Just to clear this up, I lived in McLouth for a little while, my Brother-in-law and his whole family have lived there their whole life and now with my sister and nieces. They stay because its a good place to raise a family. You don't have to lock your doors. The city will not die without a liquor store. And did someone say it sucked because the jocks ruled the school? I'm sure the art kids would have if there was a liquor store, for sure.

Dixie Jones 11 years, 6 months ago

i have lived in mclouth for 43 years it really hasnt changed that much BUT ITS TIME FOR A CHANGE. no one is forcing anyone to walk into that liquor store , no one is going to pull your head back and force a drink on you , what cracks me up the most are the ones who are saying NO NO NO LIQIOR store are the ones i have seen plastered at parties or go to oskie and sneek to the liq store and bring it home back their car in the garage so the neighbors wouldnt see , take the cans out to the country and dump them, i know of a man who wanted to open a harley shop across from where gambinos is now in Docs building and the city said bikers are trashy and we dont want your kind in our town ....We need businesses and GOOD ppl to run them. I am looking forward to the november vote if we dont keep a liquior store in town you all best look for elsewhere to go get your movies and your tanning cause Karmanns ARE GONE ,, and shame shame shame on your people who have always pretended to be Karmanns friend and now you cant even look at that family OMG and your CHURCH ppl...And you are a child of god. SHAME;...............VOTE TO KEEP THE LIQIOR STORE ! ! ! ! !! ! ! TIME WE HAD CHANGE ! !!

mommy3 11 years, 6 months ago

What change will a liquor store bring? What money will it REALLY generate? Who will benefit? REALLY benefit? Peachesncream, please clerify. What change are you hoping for? Look at Tongi, of course you don't live here, so I can't even say you would understand what it is like to go from a place like McLouth where you dont even think twice about leaving your doors unlocked, or where you don't have to worry about child abductions, or you can leave your windows down in the car at night. it's not like that any more. It's a real shocker, when you see all this stuff happening in KCK, but wouldn't think twice about it happening here. Is that what you want for McLouth? A liquor store alone wont bring it, but when people see something appealing, they want to live there for conveniences. We are a people of convenience now, so why make it suitable for you really want growth. With more businesses comes growth, with growth come crimes. You can't say it's not going to happen, but Tonganoxie and every other town that has had growth in the past 10-20 years has ALL had the same story.

Dixie Jones 11 years, 6 months ago

You ask mommy what change this would bring , well we would not be supporting other communities like we have been for YEARS, keep our money in our hometown!as for what money this will generate ,Maybe you should come to town and read the flyers they are yellow you cant miss em they are the ones everyone is hovering around and talking about, the list a long list of benifits, Who will benifit. THE SCHOOLS AND THE CHURCHES and the CITY who pay no taxes the Etax benifits them,(maybe you should do your home work doll) What change am i looking for , simple no i do not want to see another KCK thats toniges title, but i would like to see mclouth grow so our schools dont struggle any longer i do not see mclouth ever growing so much that we would meet tongie, and as for the Karmanns selling to minors, um i think not, they wouldnt even rent my sons girlfriend a r rated movie cause she didnt look old enough, i dont think they would even consider selling liquor to a minor ...NOW THE PARENTS WHO TRY TO BE COOL PARENTS WILL BUY IT FOR THEM AND GIVE IT TO THEM... BUT THEY WOULD DO THAT IN TONGIE OR LAWRENCE OSKIE OR SOMEWHERE SUCH AS THAT ... so lets keep home town money at for me knowing what its like to live in tongie um think again i did live there for a short pierod of time WAY TOO long i came home to mclouth to raise my sons where the ppl were and are friendly and considerate of others ,Im not a drinker never have been much on the stuff , but seriously would we all be protesting a HARDWARE store???? did they protest OR for that matter call everyone in town about gambinos going in? nope and everyone was cool with that , so whats the huff... (in my best pauly shore voice) hum looks to me like there needs to be some Growing up in this town! its not 1940 anymore ppl get over it ......................KEEP KARMANNS LIQUOR ! ! ! ! !

Dixie Jones 11 years, 6 months ago

and mommy dearest..... back some30 years ago there was a woman killed in tongie out there east of village street in her home middle of the day by two men she was beaten to death.... I HONESTLY THINK THEY WERE THINKING ABOUT MCLOUTH GETTING A LIQUOR STORE IN 2006 AND ALL THE CRIME THAT WAS GOING TO TAKE PLACE SO THEY WANTED TO GET A HEAD START......... so if you think that a liq store and growing is going to cause crime get a old archive of the good ole tongie (which btw is the correct spelling) and read about that premeditated crime that took place so many years ago..... as for domestic abuse and DUI's being on thye rise cause of growth and the store um think again .......for that you can get in touch with oskies paper and read all of thoes weekly in the paper .. thoes have been goin on for YEARS........and they aint gonna stop ....KEEP KARMANNS LIQUOR ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

Dixie Jones 11 years, 6 months ago

......................KEEP KARMANNS LIQUOR ! ! ! ! ! ......................KEEP KARMANNS LIQUOR ! ! ! ! ! ......................KEEP KARMANNS LIQUOR ! ! ! ! ! ......................KEEP KARMANNS LIQUOR ! ! ! ! ! ......................KEEP KARMANNS LIQUOR ! ! ! ! ! ......................KEEP KARMANNS LIQUOR ! ! ! ! ! ......................KEEP KARMANNS LIQUOR ! ! ! ! ! ......................KEEP KARMANNS LIQUOR ! ! ! ! ! ......................KEEP KARMANNS LIQUOR ! ! ! ! ! ......................KEEP KARMANNS LIQUOR ! ! ! ! ! ......................KEEP KARMANNS LIQUOR ! ! ! ! ! ......................KEEP KARMANNS LIQUOR ! ! ! ! ! ......................KEEP KARMANNS LIQUOR ! ! ! ! ! ......................KEEP KARMANNS LIQUOR ! ! ! ! ! ......................KEEP KARMANNS LIQUOR ! ! ! ! ! ......................KEEP KARMANNS LIQUOR ! ! ! ! !

......................KEEP KARMANNS LIQUOR ! ! ! ! !

mommy3 11 years, 6 months ago

You sound like you might be little off your rocker there lady. I seemed to have read that you have lived in McLouth for 43 years. So at whatever point you lived in Tonganoxie, I'm am almost willing to bet it wasn't any time recently, so to even act as though you know what TONGI is like, is a little unheard of. I lived in McLouth my whole life and have only been gone for a little over a year. And by the way, I never once said that Tonganoxie has NEVER had any crimes before the growth spirt, and you can read in many, many, many Tonganoxie papers about the almost daily crimes that are being comitted. McLouth has the bored teens doing pranks, but not smash and grabs. When was the last time McLouth had two attempted child abductions (in less than two months)? If you allow for growth, then growth will come. Once Tonganoxie city council approves the county RD 1 project, I can almost bet McLouth will see allot of growth from that alone. It is not that far away from Tonganoxie, and if you make it easier to get to Tongi than you will make it easier for people to come to McLouth. It's simple.....People will look for stores, food, Gas, liquor, easy access. McLouth aint as far off as you seem to think. People move out here to "get away" to put their kids in better schools, to keep their kids from trouble...but they bring trouble with them. My in laws moved to Tongi from Leavenworth, and of course that brought my lame brother in law. What came with him?? Numerous gangster wannabe's from Leavenworth, they think it is a miracle that they found Tongi, the kids out here have a new way to get better,and more drugs. These people don't all live here, but they come here all the time to "visit". They are here all the time, at the PARK. The police laugh at all the concerned parents hoping to catch it early. Do you see where I'm getting? What makes McLouth so special that only the "good" people will want to live there? It's special now because it has the small town feel. tongi had the small town feel 5 years ago. People still knew every body, but it's nothing new to see a new face now. Use your head! You need to do your research "doll". The people who live there and want to open these busineses that keep falling apart (like all the cafe's) need to ask themselves, why they moved there in the first place. It's not a "Lawrence", or a Tonganoxie, so why try to make a living on the dream that it could be? That dream will turn into a nightmare. Sure their buisness might thrive, but will the people? I know McLouth schools suck, but that has nothing to do with a liquor store. Can you promise that the money will all go for that?? NO. Before you comment on my spelling, check your own.

Dixie Jones 11 years, 6 months ago

MOMMY what year did you graduate from MHS???

Dixie Jones 11 years, 6 months ago

er better yet, mommie wut yr did u gradueate frm i just couldnt resist......Ducks from mommy throwing the websters at me luv a good debate too bad we never had a debate team when we went to school here huh....

Bobbi Walls 11 years, 6 months ago

I lived in Tongie, before coming to McLouth, and there was crime way before Tongie started growing. I remember the bb gun shootings, that Jeff Golubski paid my parents for, because him and some friends wanted to have some fun... I also remember people driving into Caseys, and I know just how easy it used to be 12 years ago, to buy pot... Having a liquor store, is not going to increase the crime. I also remember, when B&J's used to be where Caseys is at, and that was before Bitlers, I also remember that kids in Tongie also found ways to have fun, and cause trouble. There is already crime in McLouth, what about the kids who blew up the time capsule on main street, I would never ever leave my doors unlocked when we lived there on my house or my car.. It is about time that this town started to change. Like one of my previous posts said, for those of you against change, and those of you that are not, go check the city ordinances for McLouth that are still active..such as no spitting on the sidewalk, no ladies in pants on main street, no Black people allowed downtown after dark. This is a town that has more worries than Karmann's Liquor Store. It is 2006, and it is time McLouth realizes that.. McLouth Schools don't suck, they just need better employees, and a school board that actually cares about the kids. I also remember, when the wannabes from KC, came out and sprayed Crips rule, and no my spelling isn't wrong that how it was painted all over Tonganoxie, and that was when there was only one stoplight, and you still knew who everybody was...


mommy3 11 years, 6 months ago

Again, Please go back and check your first posting for typos. After you do that you can pick on everyone else for their typo's. If the recent posters, would go back a veiw previous posting's you would see we covered all that. I NEVER said there was no crime, I also NEVER said that a liquor store would bring crime. Everyone keeps saying that McLouth needs a change. A liquor store would help growth. Ok, well what does growth bring? I'm also not talking about the sort of petty, every now and then, raise some hair type of crime. It's happenning EVERYDAY here in Tonganoxie. Less than a year ago, when I lived in McLouth, if you heard a police siren you would stop and try to see which way it was headed. It's a common thing to hear in Tonganoxie.

Bobbi Walls 11 years, 6 months ago

If you don't like it, then move.. We lived in KC, and moved because of the crime... Quit complaining about Tongie, and move somewhere, where you feel safer... It's weird though, I have not heard about any of the things you have talked you have sources????

mommy3 11 years, 6 months ago

What things I've talked about? The crimes in Tonganoxie? Check out the Tonganoxie paper's website, you'll see some there. Go to the previous weeks articles you'll see it there. Go to the library, the park talk to the parents. Come to my part of town, talk to the old timers, the new people in the new sub just up the street. I don't want to move. We moved here because of my husbands job. It was either Lawrence or Tonganoxie, or Basehor. Coming from McLouth, Lawrence was a bit too much. Basehor is too close to KC, and so we met in the middle. Tonganoxie is still a great town, that I enjoy living in. The recreation dept. does a heck of a job. There is plenty to do with my small kids. However it is scary to see the changes happening that you are all crying for in McLouth. Where would I take my family. My whole family is all in this area, this is familiar to us. If you go way West you might find a small safe town, but how do you work, how do you support a family of five on one income in the middle of no where. There is no reason why my family or anyone elses should have to give up what they love because of stupid people. You make things sound so simple. Are you really living in reality? Yes, things change. The people make the change a good one or a bad one. The Tonganoxie coucil wants money, they don't care about the fate of the people. "The love of money is the root of all evil."

mommy3 11 years, 6 months ago

When you are left to debate between two people, and you have to repeat yourself over and over, it's time to move on. I think the Lawrence 23rd st. thing looks pretty hairy. I think I'll click my way over there. Good luck too all. What will be, will be! Only God knows!

noworries 11 years, 6 months ago

mommy3, maybe you should worry about your own town for a little while and leave this debate to those of us here in McLouth that it actually affects.

gr 11 years, 6 months ago

"..such as no spitting on the sidewalk, "

I don't believe Lawrence doesn't allow spitting on the sidewalks.

"If you don't like it, then move.. "

And some people moved to McLouth from Lawrence, KC, Tongi. Now, some want to make it bad so they move somewhere else?

Dixie Jones 11 years, 6 months ago

you know i have seen mommy repeat herself time and time again today and get no where. she talks in circles.over and over.... im done see ya all at the poles in november ya all! !!! and when asked to vote keep the liquor sales in mclouth .....ask where the HELL YES box is........ keep up the post guys love to read em actually have enjoyed dbrm's post , im sure i know you but cant figure out who you are.... have enjoyed remembering the things that have taken place in good ole NON crime now go back and count my typos and let me know how many i laterz taterz

Bobbi Walls 11 years, 6 months ago

peaches, you can email me it is in my profile.. I would have graduated in 97, and my husband graduated in 94... we still have family there as you have read..I wish I lived there still, so that I could vote... oh well my parents will...and mommy never did answer what year she would have graduated... hmmmmm makes me wonder....Go Karmann's, I can't wait to buy from you before the mud a thon later this month....

mommy3 11 years, 6 months ago

Oh, don't you hate that. I told myself that I was just going to come back and see if there was any juicy stuff being said.....but I can't help but defend myself!


Man, I really wish you would read the WHOLE posting. I talk in circles because you cant read, or understand what anyone is saying. I keep repeating myself in hopes you will catch on. I did not graduate from MHS I graduated from a private school in Lawrence. I did go to school in McLouth through 7th grade. I said the schools suck.....So what right do you have to tell me that I should mind my own business????? Because you live there? So what! McLouth matters to more people than just it's current residents. People have memories, and history there.
Yes, you two should get together and by from Karmanns.....that will be great. Pop a view anti depressants, and a beer <<>> "Two old ladies rade the town." <<>>

What does it make you wonder dbrm? Wonder if I am from McLouth? Again, go back and READ. Ok, now I am really leaving this page.......I promise myself I will not even check your stupid comments.....because I can't stand by and allow someone to talk trash about things that just can't seem to understand. It's one thing to debate, but when you try to rob me of my right to voice my concern about a place that is very, very, very dear to my heart. In fact I can hardley drive through McLouth, because I can feel my heart breaking. I miss my Father, and my memories are there. It reminds me of what I lost. I'm not the only one posting the the exact same thing......READ, READ, READ!!! Please show a little respect.

mommy3 11 years, 6 months ago

Good bye, farewell, see ya, I have to go before someone says something like "get over it", or "move on", or something that would really piss me off....... or hurt.

Bobbi Walls 11 years, 6 months ago

I have fond memories there as well, of high school, and meeting my husband, getting married in the Baptist Church, before they renovated it, I was baptized in the same church. I spend tons of time there, and love the town as well. I just want to see it come into to the present day, and not be stuck like it always has been..When I die, I will be buried in McLouth, as will my husband, my parents, and my please do get over yourself...

tenziewenzie 11 years, 6 months ago

I think you are all wacked! these are good people just trying to make a living. If they don't get the stuff in Mclouth, they will drive somewhere else and get the damn booze, and could drive after already been drinking. I swear this town needs to grow the hell up, and leave people alone.

tenziewenzie 11 years, 6 months ago

I wanted to add that my name is Tina Smith. A.K.A. tenziewenzie above.... Leave these people alone, and let them alone about the liquior store. They are not hurting anyone. They are good people, and this town is just full of a bunch of up tight people that need to get with the times. This is 2006 people. WAKE UP!

Dixie Jones 11 years, 6 months ago

OMG TINA YOU SO NAILED IT ! ! ! ! ! Take a bow woman !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bobbi Walls 11 years, 6 months ago

Just an FYI, I was informed yesterday that only those residing within city limits will be allowed to vote on this, no matter if they have a McLouth voting address or not... I don't know if this is true or not, but it is what is being talked about around town...

Dixie Jones 11 years, 6 months ago

thats my understanding too, anyone else know any info on this?????also have heard that even if you own a business in town but dont reside here you cant vote. is that what you heard too 4ever??

gr 11 years, 6 months ago

"They are not hurting anyone."

Actually, they are. They are selling toxic drugs to people. Now, you may argue if any drugs are non-toxic, but you can't argue that alcohol is non-toxic. Sure, others in other towns are selling toxic drugs, too. Some countries sell opium. Just so happens, that alcohol, at the current time, is legal. But, does that make it right? Is that the best for the town?

I don't believe anyone is arguing that the Karmann's aren't nice people. Though, anyone who sells toxic substance to others, would be up for questioning. However, this isn't targeting the Karmann's - anyone who would open a store to sell poison would be targeted.

There are some who attempt to confuse the issue that a new store will help grow the town. Any business could do that. Why would specifically a store selling alcohol do that? Would you want your town to grow solely because of alcohol? So, let's open up a business that doesn't sell a known poison.

Some say there is a tax benefit. They say people will drive to other towns and get the poison anyway. Since other towns already sell their poison, do you think anyone would drive clear out to the town of McLouth to get their drinking drugs? Most likely, most of the taxes would come from the townsfolk. So, if tax is the key issue here, just raise the mill levy. Rather than just taxing the druggies, let everyone make a contribution to whatever the tax would go for.

Then, there are others who seem to think THAT SHOUTING WILL SOMEHOW MAKE THEIR POINT that a store selling poison is good. Especially, if you repeat the same sentence several times. But there is no offer for a reason why it's good.

To my question, What benefit has drinking a toxic drug done anyone, there was only one pitifully lame answer of supposed health benefits. I believe they were getting confused with red wine. Do you really think people are going to flock to the store to buy red wine for it's health benefits? Especially if the wine had the alcohol removed? I believe the objection to the store would cease to exist if they only sold non-alcoholic drinks. I don't think most of you would like a non-alcoholic store. What kind of town do you want where people are so addicted to drugs they'll do anything to keep their supply coming? People complain about other drugs being sold on the sly. So the solution is to sanction more?

Better figure out what kind of town you want. Another Lawrence, another Kansas City? A town based upon selling poison from a storefront? Just another wet spot in the road? Like a town with a liquor store and a girlie show. You know the type - where everthing has run down, all businesses have closed, except for those that scrape a few dollars off passersby as they go from one large city to another.

Or do you want a town that is not just another bedroom to larger ones. A town where more "fond memories" can be had?

Bobbi Walls 11 years, 6 months ago

That is my understanding also, peaches.. I really hope this does pass, because there are a few of us wanting to open a bar... Oskie and Tongie have them, why not McLouth.. I don't understand why if you are registered to vote, and live outside of city limits, why you cannot have a say in this.... Is this right, half of the population is rural, including some of the business owners wanting this liquor store to close.. How is it a town vote, when only 1/3 of the town will be allowed to vote on it...

Fishyfishy 11 years, 6 months ago

I would like to applaude "gr". I especially enjoyed this...

"Then, there are others who seem to think THAT SHOUTING WILL SOMEHOW MAKE THEIR POINT that a store selling poison is good. Especially, if you repeat the same sentence several times. But there is no offer for a reason why it's good."

And...YES! Only those who live within the city limits of McLouth will vote. It is a CITY issue, DUH. What made you think it wasn't?

If you are not a registered voter within the city of McLouth, you will NOT vote.

gr 11 years, 6 months ago

Glad you enjoyed that, Fishyfishy!

I just heard that McLouth's school is taking out a Million dollar loan (and taxing the people for it) to expand the school buildings.

I conclude one of the following must be true:

1) Since the few months of opening up the alcohol store, there has been a great influx of residents (with children!) requiring school expansion. Therefore, we should promote wanton drinking as a way to grow our schools.

2) The town has been growing just fine without the store and therefore, the store has no effective bearing on growth.

3) The surrounding area has been growing which is requiring school expansion. The surrounding area, whose vote does not count.

Fishyfishy 11 years, 6 months ago

I believe the expansion is for the Music Deptartment.

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