Archive for Monday, December 5, 2005
Mirecki hospitalized after beating
December 5, 2005, 5:37 p.m. Updated December 5, 2005, 6:31 p.m.
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Douglas County sheriff's deputies are investigating the reported beating of a Kansas University professor who gained recent notoriety for his Internet tirades against Christian fundamentalists.
Kansas University religious studies professor Paul Mirecki reported he was beaten by two men about 6:40 a.m. today on a roadside in rural Douglas County. In a series of interviews late this afternoon, Mirecki said the men who beat him were making references to the controversy that has propelled him into the headlines in recent weeks.
Mirecki
"I didn't know them, but I'm sure they knew me," he said.
Mirecki said he was driving to breakfast when he noticed the men tailgating him in a pickup truck.
"I just pulled over hoping they would pass, and then they pulled up real close behind," he said. "They got out, and I made the mistake of getting out."
He said the men beat him about the upper body with their fists, and he said he thinks they struck him with a metal object. He was treated and released at Lawrence Memorial Hospital.
"I'm mostly shaken up, and I got some bruises and sore spots," he said.
Douglas County Sheriff's Officials are classifying the case as an aggravated battery. They wouldn't say exactly where the incident happened, citing the ongoing investigation
The sheriff's department is looking for the suspects, described as two white males between ages 30 and 40, one wearing a red visor and wool gloves, and both wearing jeans. They were last seen in a large pickup truck.
Anyone with information is asked to call Crime Stoppers at 843-TIPS or the sheriff's office at 841-0007.
Mirecki recently wrote online that he planned to teach intelligent design as mythology in an upcoming course. He wrote it would be a "nice slap" in the "big fat face" of fundamentalists.
The remarks caused an uproar, Mirecki apologized, and KU announced last week the class would be canceled.
Evolution
Evolution in Kansas
- Video
- 6News video: Some question group's move with elections nearing (07-08-06)
- 49abcnews.com video: Discovery Institute starts ad campaign weeks before elections (07-07-06)
- 6News video: Film explores evolution circus (01-03-06)
- 6News video: Group takes shot at Mirecki through postcards (12-15-05)
- 6News video: Mirecki resigns from KU department post (12-07-05)
- Stories
- Education board to revisit debate over evolution (02-11-07)
- As old board departs, new evolution stance takes shape (12-14-06)
- Biologist speaks for intelligent design (12-08-06)
- Cultures clash in Democratic primary (07-06-06)
- Education department spokesman leaves job (06-15-06)
- Evolution, religion comments put heat on department spokesman (05-26-06)
- KU profs support evolution skepticism (02-21-06)
- Science teachers pan new standards (02-14-06)
- 'Dodos' circling around I.D. (01-04-06)
- Attorneys in I.D. case spread message (01-04-06)
- Professor blasts KU, sheriff's investigation (12-10-05)
- Kansas ranks last in science (12-08-05)
- Discovery Institute
- Evolution timeline: Events related to the Kansas controversy
- U.S. District Court Ruling in Kitzmiller et al v. Dover Area School District (PDF)
- Center for Science and Culture: A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism
- Parody: Intelligent Design Society of Kansas
- Mirecki press release (.pdf)
- More evolution coverage
- LJWorld.com's Evolution in Kansas coverage
For any more updates on this story, see the 6News reports at 6 p.m. and 10 p.m. on Sunflower Broadband's channel 6 and pick up a copy of Tuesday's Journal-World.
More like this
- Mirecki treated after roadside beating 198 comments / December 6, 2005
- Mirecki mum on details of beating 263 comments / December 7, 2005
- Professor blasts KU, sheriff's investigation 152 comments / December 10, 2005
- Embattled KU professor has long history with religion 59 comments / December 10, 2005
- Magazine to feature article on Mirecki 3 comments / February 21, 2006
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5 December 2005
at 6:01 p.m.
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pepper_bar (Anonymous) says…
this story doesn't make any sense.
5 December 2005
at 6:04 p.m.
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Sigmund (Anonymous) says…
Let's wait for the facts before recriminations … wait NO, let the character assinations begin!
5 December 2005
at 6:05 p.m.
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yourworstnightmare (Anonymous) says…
This is shameful and sad.
It is really no surprise, though, given how Mirecki has been demonized in the media.
Humans are capable of doing almost anything to one another if they think that their target is “evil”.
Who's next?
5 December 2005
at 6:10 p.m.
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Baille (Anonymous) says…
In addition to a felony conviction, they should be forced to pay for his all his medical bills.
People like this have no place in our community.
5 December 2005
at 6:10 p.m.
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OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…
There is such a thing as “religous addiction” where people turn to religion to get a “high” from feelings of self-righteousness and legalistic accomplishments. Being religous does not make a person mentally healthy. Some turn to religion to find God, some are looking to find self-justfication wrapped up to look like legitimate faith.
I'm very sorry for what happened to Dr. Paul. This was no doubt related to his recent controversies.
Folks, the sickos who did this are probably bragging about it right now to someone. They'll be caught.
5 December 2005
at 6:11 p.m.
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pepper_bar (Anonymous) says…
wait for the facts before vilifying anyone.
5 December 2005
at 6:13 p.m.
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yourworstnightmare (Anonymous) says…
Indeed, wait for the facts.
It might be that Mirecki has faked his own assault to make the “other side” look bad.
5 December 2005
at 6:14 p.m.
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yourworstnightmare (Anonymous) says…
BTW, my last post involved something called sarcasm.
I don't know an emoticon for “rolling eyes”.
5 December 2005
at 6:20 p.m.
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Calliope877 (Anonymous) says…
This story is REALLY disturbing. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if the controversy had something to do with it.
5 December 2005
at 6:24 p.m.
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OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…
This needs to be said: Pat Robertson and Fred Phelps lead the religious right about as much as Jesse Jackson leads the black community. They do and say what they do and say what they say because of THEIR agendas, not the agenda of an entire class or segment of society. They are not representative of what I call my religiously conservative views just beause the press uses them as examples.
Comments like Seans are completely inappropriate; and frankly, not very well thought out. I was reading my Bible just today. Should I, therefore, turn myself in for this crime? Am I supposed to personally absorb the consequences of this crime just because I'm a conservative “Bible-thumper”? Are sweeping accusations and judgements really appropriate, to the point of condemning an entire segment of society because two dim-bulbs thought that Dr. Paul needed a butt-kicking?
Let's think before we type.
5 December 2005
at 6:28 p.m.
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RayanaSandy (Anonymous) says…
How terrible. I'm thinking of you Mirecki
-Rayana Sandy
5 December 2005
at 6:30 p.m.
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AbsolutLaney (Anonymous) says…
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
5 December 2005
at 6:31 p.m.
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Jclarkson (Anonymous) says…
good lord! Mirecki can't get out of the media spotlight.
had him for a class back in 2000. Good professor, I enjoyed his class.
Thats sad.
5 December 2005
at 6:32 p.m.
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AbsolutLaney (Anonymous) says…
I'll take you on topeka. I have one thing you don't: I am solid in the knowledge of the integrity and character of this man, something you clearly CLEARY lack. How incredibly sad and typical of someone who would even suggest such a thing.
5 December 2005
at 6:33 p.m.
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OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…
Topeka, I'm guessing you wouldn't want to post your real name on your post, would you? If I wrote something THAT messed up, I wouldn't sign it either.
Just because some stripper in Colorado once faked a crime… what a reach. Being an atheist automatically makes him a liar?
5 December 2005
at 6:36 p.m.
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AbsolutLaney (Anonymous) says…
Futhermore topeka, do you actually think that fundamentalists aren't whacked out enough to do this? Give your people some credit.
5 December 2005
at 6:38 p.m.
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AbsolutLaney (Anonymous) says…
Hey topeka, like OldEnuf said, perhaps you should state your name for the record. In the interest of this bet of course. And, hmm, isn't it interesting that someone who would try to deflect attention where it needs to be (the violence of this crime) would use a tactic such as this to put the favor back on that of the Right? How sleeeeezy.
5 December 2005
at 6:41 p.m.
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yourworstnightmare (Anonymous) says…
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
5 December 2005
at 6:42 p.m.
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OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…
NOW Topeka places bets on the outcome. Crass. This is what is sick about your posts: I'm guessing that you are saying this because you disagree with Dr. Paul, which suggests that you are probably religious. And, since you are from the world headquarters of diversity (Topeka), I'm guessing you 'claim' to be Christian. What are the Fruits of the Spirit, Topeka (Galatians, Chap. 5)? Love, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness… Are you demonstrating any of these when you accuse Dr. Paul of being a liar, and place BETS, making light of his assault? Would Jesus (your 'Lord') do what you are doing?
5 December 2005
at 6:42 p.m.
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Marion (Marion Lynn) says…
I'm going to get crucified for this but Topeka, I would not bet against you.
What kind of a bonehead stops on a country road after being tailgated in what had to have appeared to be a menacing fashion?
This is going to get curiouser and curiouser.
Thanks.
Marion.
5 December 2005
at 6:43 p.m.
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AbsolutLaney (Anonymous) says…
Typical. Can't respond to the issues raised, and just spouts rhetoric. Yep, sounds just like the character of someone such as topeka.
5 December 2005
at 6:49 p.m.
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AbsolutLaney (Anonymous) says…
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5 December 2005
at 6:51 p.m.
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OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…
“Independent”. Hopefully, that means there are not too many others out there thinking like you do.
I'm not happy about Dr. Paul's words, but I'm far more upset by this event. Sickening. I'll be praying for Paul and for the good men and women of our Sherrif's department who ARE going to find these freaks.
I hope they can throw some of those hate crime laws at them.
5 December 2005
at 6:53 p.m.
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cowboy (Anonymous) says…
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5 December 2005
at 6:53 p.m.
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Calliope877 (Anonymous) says…
topeka,
You're just as much of a fool for making a lame bet on a bboard without posting your name, address, phone number, social security number, your mother's maiden name, credit card number, and bank account including your atm pin. Now if you posted all that I'm sure everyone will take your bet seriously.
5 December 2005
at 6:56 p.m.
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grubesteak (Anonymous) says…
OldEnuf,
I'm not a fan of Pat Robertson, but I couldn't with good conscience put Roberton and Phelps in the same boat. Phelps is a nutcase (who protests the funerals of our fallen soliders), Robertson simply stands by his convictions.
You don't have to like Robertson, but it's unfair to say their from the same ideology.
5 December 2005
at 6:56 p.m.
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Sigmund (Anonymous) says…
I think y'all are fools. Jumping to conclusions based upon gross generalizations, stereotypes, personal biases and prejudices. Ridiculous.
5 December 2005
at 6:57 p.m.
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OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…
Sean:
If you just read your last post, you'll see that you actually proved my point. You are complaining because one of my fundie bretheren (not that I call him my brother) vilified an entire religion because of the actions of a minority. Are you so blind that you cannot see that you did exactly that SAME thing to me? Two guys beat up Dr. Paul and you attack ALL who are conservatives?
You are not following my advise, which was to THINK before you TYPE. Say it out loud with me, Sean: “think, then type”.
5 December 2005
at 7:01 p.m.
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bige1030 (Anonymous) says…
Come on, topeka! Dr. Mirecki is definitely a man of character. Just look at what he did when he made a mistake - he never once denied it, and he apologized.
Oh, wait a minute. I guess since he's a heathen, he can't possibly be of good character. Praise the Lord!
You know, your stance is nearly as supported as the article's is.
However, I wouldn't doubt the article, since he was treated and released at the hospital. I'm sure that a police report of him being taken to the hospital or a hospital record would surface if his attack were ever publicly doubted. (After all, isn't what the fundies are good at? Oh, wait a minute, they probably wouldn't leak it outside of a smear campaign. Never mind.)
5 December 2005
at 7:03 p.m.
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OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…
Robertson told the people of Pennsylvania that if they rejected I.D., God might decide to bring a disaster upon them (in so many words). You don't think that was a little “odd”?
5 December 2005
at 7:04 p.m.
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Calliope877 (Anonymous) says…
“I think y'all are fools. Jumping to conclusions based upon gross generalizations, stereotypes, personal biases and prejudices. Ridiculous.”
Sigmund,
Aren't you kind of doing the same thing? You're jumping to the conclusion that everyone is a fool based off previous posts….isn't this a gross generalization considering that you don't really know any of the people posting?
And as far as my post to Topeka is concerned, it was joke. I was trying to lighten the mood and I guess I failed.
5 December 2005
at 7:07 p.m.
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Calliope877 (Anonymous) says…
OldEnuf,
I wrote an angry email to Robertson for that idiotic comment…like it did any good. He just “rephrased” his comment like he usually does…moron.
5 December 2005
at 7:17 p.m.
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compmd (Anonymous) says…
For those who think he staged this event, do you believe he would
1) keep his job
2) be able to gain a professorship anywhere else
3) ever have any respect ever again in academia?
Comparing a well published professor to a former stripper/small town mayor is apples and oranges.
Getting beaten up for making fun of “fundies” in Kansas is far more plausible if you ask me. I remember listening to obscene phone calls made to my home when I was 7 years old and people threatening my father day after day when he ran for state representative in Illinois as a Democrat in a strong Republican district.
I believe you, Dr. Mirecki, and you have my sympathy.
5 December 2005
at 7:18 p.m.
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stinkfist (Anonymous) says…
I think Bills Hicks said it best…
Christian: Hey buddy we're christians and we don't take kindly to what cha said.
Hicks: Then forgive me.
5 December 2005
at 7:27 p.m.
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Informed (Anonymous) says…
At the risk of continuing the flame war, I'm going to weigh in on this one. My absolute first thought, when I heard about the alleged attack, was the same as topeka's. However, I guess we will all have to wait for more *facts* to be disclosed.
I also appreciate grubesteak's comment regarding the differences between Robertson and Phelps. Perhaps people also need to be reminded that Phelps is, in addition to being a disbarred attorney, a registered Democrat. He has unsuccessfully run for governor, as a democrat, several times.
5 December 2005
at 7:28 p.m.
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yourworstnightmare (Anonymous) says…
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5 December 2005
at 7:29 p.m.
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Calliope877 (Anonymous) says…
sean,
Hi. Why all the hostility towards OldEnuf? I realize that he's probably a conservative christian, unlike myself and unlike you, but I don't see anywhere in his posts where his is justifying Mirecki's beating. If he was, I could understand the anger, but he's not….so what gives?
5 December 2005
at 7:31 p.m.
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yourworstnightmare (Anonymous) says…
Oh, come on!
5 December 2005
at 7:39 p.m.
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oxandale (Anonymous) says…
Well, it is unfortunate that the professor was beaten up, andthat the individuals who allegedly did it felt moved to do so. The professor should not have gotten out of his car, but that doenst give anyone the right to throw punches. Who ever the party(ies) are that felt moved to go this extent, it would have been nice if they had felt moved to act in other ways instead of this to get their feelings/thoughts heard.
5 December 2005
at 7:43 p.m.
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Jane (Anonymous) says…
Before I read anyposts, I thought that this was a staged incident. Why? The truck was 'a large pickup truck'…no color? If someone were tailgating me I would sure at least take note of the color/make of said vehicle. And yeah, what kind of idiot would stop while being tailgated? I think if a couple of 'fundies' were out to whoop his butt, he would have a few more injuries than was reported. Mireki already lost respect among his colleagues when he showed the country how bigoted and condescending he is. He showed his own ass and now is trying to cover it up by pointing fingers somewhere else.
5 December 2005
at 7:43 p.m.
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OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…
Sometimes I ignore my better judgement. This is going to be one of those days.
Sean:
What is “holier than thou” about stating the obvious? everything you have written is generalities. Why did you mention Rush Limbaugh? You say I'm out of touch, yet you assume that I listen to Rush Limbaugh. I have countless friends who are conservative, and not one of them listens to Limbaugh. What is my high horse? That I call you out for insulting everyone who reads a Bible and goes to church? Don't you see how base your thinking is?
The irony, that only you are missing, is that you think exactly like the people you are so quick to criticize. On a fundamental level, you are just as quick to judge and quick to condemn as they are. You don't take the time to find out what the other side is thinking any more than they do. You think that because you hate what they SAY, that means what motivates you is completely different from what motivates them. What I'm reading from you says “I think small, too”. I'm not saying that you insult your intelligence, but to challenge you to consider if the wide generalities like the ones you have expressed here are really a sign of enlightenment.
Think about what I've written here before you lash out. There is a profound intolerance in your perspective.
5 December 2005
at 7:44 p.m.
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OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…
It's dark at 6:40 a.m.
5 December 2005
at 7:46 p.m.
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sairen42 (Anonymous) says…
I'm reserving opinion on whether this was a hoax or not for awhile longer. I just wanted to point out that it's possible police are not releasing everything they and Mirecki know to the local newspaper, such as they are doing with the exact location. Just pointing out a possibility.
And regardless of anyone's side in this issue, if Mirecki was beaten, it's a horrible act no matter what he said or did.
5 December 2005
at 7:53 p.m.
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Jane (Anonymous) says…
observer,
I didn't say he beat himself up.
5 December 2005
at 7:55 p.m.
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ColBond (Anonymous) says…
Please stop assuming that all Christians are the same. “Fascist fundamentalists. We're really supposed to believe you Bible-thumpers are followers of Jesus, yet you use violence to solve your problems.” I don't assume that every athiest on the planet believes the exact same thing and acts the same way, yet people who make comments like this want to believe that every Christian has no tolerance for people with different ideas.
5 December 2005
at 7:56 p.m.
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Jane (Anonymous) says…
observer,
In case you hadn't noticed, I am not the only one who thinks this story is a bit suspicious.
5 December 2005
at 7:57 p.m.
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PoeticHeteroSapien (Anonymous) says…
As has been pointed out, Mirecki has a lot LOT LOT to lose if he fakes an assault, and very little to gain.
Do you honestly think he'd risk a charge of “making false statements to police” on his record, just to put himself BACK in the spotlight? Because, if you hadn't noticed, the story had just faded.
I know Mirecki personally and there is absolutely no way he staged such an event.
It seems pretty simple to me. You're driving and someone is tailgating, so you move over to let them pass. They pull in behind you, so you assume something is wrong with your vehicle or they need help or something, and get out to see what's up. Your focus is then on the men yelling at you, before they beat you up and hit you with a metal object.
At some point later, as you regain awareness of your surroundings, you think, “oh yeah, I should have probably tried to get a description of that truck.”
You guys do a great job playing Monday morning quarterback, but none of you were there. The doctors and nurses who saw the damage didn't send him home immediately, so clearly some damage was done to him. Unless you think he just got out of his car one day, slammed his face into it a few times, and THEN went to file a report. Is that your contention?
Otherwise I don't find the “faked it” story even remotely plausible. He's brash and outspoken, but he's not a stupid man. Faking this would just plain be stupid, as it would almost certainly terminate his academic career for good, for no benefit other than making religionists look bad. I'd say he does that with far more power when he teaches his course on what we now know about the Bible, than he could accomplish with any news story— and he knows that too.
5 December 2005
at 8:02 p.m.
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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus (Anonymous) says…
Are you celebrating, Kevin, or merely speculating?
5 December 2005
at 8:02 p.m.
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b_asinbeer (Anonymous) says…
Typical conservative response….he faked his own beating….spare me. And people like Arminius, instead of saying “let's wait for the facts” or “that's too bad, it should never ever happen to anyone regardless of political beliefs”….they just say, look, somebody else faked his own beating, so he's guilty too.
5 December 2005
at 8:02 p.m.
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PoeticHeteroSapien (Anonymous) says…
Arminius - notice the part in that story where it quickly became apparent that that Principal's story was false and he was brought up on charges? I'm gonna go ahead and guess he didn't go to Harvard. Come on, man, think!
ColBond - are you seriously telling me you think that atheists aren't branded with a single brush every single day, by almost anyone who talks about them? Give me a break! Yes, it's not fair to paint all fundamentalists with the same brush— recent Nobel peace prize winner Jimmy Carter is fundamentalist Christian— but it should be obvious that the people saying “fundies” here are referring to the rabid, salvating believers who care more about their beliefs than their fellow man. You know they exist, and are almost without fail found among the ranks of the fundamentalists. The same is true in all religions— it is the fundies that you must fear. It is the fundies who use violence and intimidation to pressure others into following their rigid religious interpreitation of the holy scriptures, whether those scriptures be the Qur'an or the Bible or the Torah.
5 December 2005
at 8:02 p.m.
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Jane (Anonymous) says…
observer,
I'm not either of those, doesn't insult me in the least. Hey, people loose it sometimes and do stupid, unexplainable things. Like I said, Mireki showed his ass and is trying to play the victim to take the heat off him. And the controversy is NOT over…I work in Strong Hall and believe me it is NOT over.
5 December 2005
at 8:08 p.m.
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Informed (Anonymous) says…
Here's another story of a faked assault:
http://www.chestertontribune.com/Poli…
And here's another one, made by the president of a NOW chapter:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,1…
5 December 2005
at 8:08 p.m.
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Jane (Anonymous) says…
funbie, yea! I love to have fun. Chill out observer. You have no clue.
5 December 2005
at 8:10 p.m.
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ColBond (Anonymous) says…
I'm saying when people make sweeping remarks about everyone of a specific belief, it does nothing to improve their own views.
I'm tired of this entire ID debate. Yes, I believe the theory of evolution should be taught in schools as an example of the scientific method. ID would be better taught as a religious studies class. While they are similar in the fact that they are both beliefs on the origin of man, they lend themselves in education to different subjects.
5 December 2005
at 8:10 p.m.
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Jane (Anonymous) says…
Seeeee? People beat themselves all the time. I hear some orthodox flagelate themselves because they are 'sinners'.
5 December 2005
at 8:11 p.m.
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Jane (Anonymous) says…
funbie spin machine sounds like FUN!!!
5 December 2005
at 8:12 p.m.
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TheOriginalCA (Anonymous) says…
With some of the underhanded inflammatory comments of Mireki's, odds are that there would be some idiot out there dumb enough to do this type of thing. Shame on all of them involved. Maybe he will think twice before grandstanding and hopely the criminals (IF this REALLY happened) will be caught.
5 December 2005
at 8:16 p.m.
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Jane (Anonymous) says…
observer,
I wonder if you have read Mireki's emails that have been published. He did not offend ME, but his tone and words are not coming from one who is unbiased. I wouldn't want to take his class because he is rude and insulting. Why is it okay for him to be that way towards Christians—fundamentalists or not-when we all are supposed to be tolerant of others?
5 December 2005
at 8:23 p.m.
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missmagoo (Anonymous) says…
No one deserves this. He's in my prayers.
5 December 2005
at 8:24 p.m.
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Jane (Anonymous) says…
I don't know, why don't you find one and ask them?
Why don't you answer my questions? Did you read the emails? Why is it okay for Mireki to be intolerant, rude, and insulting?
5 December 2005
at 8:25 p.m.
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Informed (Anonymous) says…
observer, have you noticed that those questioning this alleged assault have done so rather respectfully? They have made no verbal attacks against those who disagree with them(us). You, however, have spewed nothing but vehemence and disdain for anyone you label a fundie. In the eyes of many, that tends to invalidate your posts.
5 December 2005
at 8:29 p.m.
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Jane (Anonymous) says…
thank you, informed.
Dec. 1, 2005
Contact: Lynn Bretz, University Relations, (785) 864-8866.
Chancellor's statement re: withdrawal of course
lawrence — Chancellor Robert Hemenway issued the following statement today in response to the withdrawal of Professor Paul Mirecki's course:
” I want to be clear that I personally find Professor Mirecki's e-mail comments repugnant and vile. They do not represent my views nor the views of this university. People of all faiths are valued at KU, and campus ministries are an important part of life at the university.
” Dr. Mirecki has made the right decision by his withdrawal from the course. He has a right to free speech but he has to realize the revelation of his past e-mails has tainted the environment for his course. He insulted both our students and the university's public, and he misrepresented beliefs of KU's faculty and staff.
” This unfortunate episode does not in any way diminish our belief that the course should be taught. It is the role of the university to take on such topics and to provide the civil, academic environment in which they can be honestly examined and discussed.”
5 December 2005
at 8:33 p.m.
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Ragingbear (Anonymous) says…
This is what religion does. All it does is cause sorrow, grief and strife.
5 December 2005
at 8:35 p.m.
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PoeticHeteroSapien (Anonymous) says…
The articles say he had a tooth knocked out, rather, BROKEN out. That's dedication, if he faked this! How can you even claim that?
As to the “fundie” thing, why is that bad? Do you say the word atheists with respect and an even tone, when you're talking to your religious friends, or do you kinda sneer it? It's okay that you do, everyone does that.
When we pick on “fundies” and you think we're picking on all Christians or all people of faith, then we have an issue.
Nobody thinks I'm talking about Joe Average Muslim when I say “fudamentalists blew up a bus today”. Why do you think I'm talking about all Christians when I say “those crazy fundies think the world is 6000 years old”?
5 December 2005
at 8:38 p.m.
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Adrienome (Anonymous) says…
Don't you find it ironic that when our country is sacrificing so much to fight religious fundamentalism abroad, there are people here who are hard at work to bring down the wall of separation between church and state?
I think it's ironic because there are no real differences between Muslim and Christian fanatics and incidents like this are just another reminder of this fact.
A.
5 December 2005
at 8:38 p.m.
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oxandale (Anonymous) says…
Jane, as you well know, there are many people in this world who are intolerant, rude and insulting to various groups in life. Does that make it ok to assault someone? The professor may suffer from have a defective personality, ok fine… people are like that.
General thoughts: If he did end up faking this assualt some how.. he has alot of explaining to do to the authorities. As for all of the slinging of names, refering to others as “fundies”.. no offense but so what if a person is a fundalmentalist? A Christian?? How does i pertain to this man's assualt? From what i gathered from the article, this guy had the crap beaten out of him by people who apparently disaggreed with him.
5 December 2005
at 8:45 p.m.
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PoeticHeteroSapien (Anonymous) says…
That's the part I don't get, Ox. Everyone's mad because we call fundamentalists fundies…
…but we get called “heathens” and worse so much that we started referring to ourselves by those terms! That's why one of Mirecki's posts started with, as many of our posts do, “Fellow Damned:”, because we get told how we're going to hell what seems like once a week.
What a double standard we live under.
5 December 2005
at 8:52 p.m.
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Jane (Anonymous) says…
Poetic,
Nothing about teeth, read the article again.
observer,
someone once told me to never write what you don't want to be made public. Good advice.
oxandale,
no it is not okay for people to be beaten for their views. I don't condone violence, and I think the two men who did this (?) were wrong and should be punnished. I just find the story a little suspicious.
ReachAround, too funny…talking smack…
5 December 2005
at 8:54 p.m.
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compmd (Anonymous) says…
wendt,
I know I'm slightly worried. There are some real crazies in Kansas, with all sorts of causes. While driving my veggiemobile I've been harassed and followed by people who have threatened me. Thankfully the LPD has taken care of them.
With this whole religion vs. academia thing, it doesn't matter that I'm an Orthodox Christian (I don't usually make a point to advertise it), I'm involved with all that book learnin' up on Mt. Oread. That bothers fundie-types. Walking around town with a baseball bat that has the word “righteousness” burned into it should be sufficient to keep away anyone thinking of punishing me for not adhering to their beliefs though.
Actually, now that I actually think about that, I really wonder what would happen if I tried that. :)
5 December 2005
at 8:54 p.m.
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glockenspiel (Anonymous) says…
Atheists are intolerant of believers, believers are intolerant of atheists. This is ridiculous. Enough with the conspiracy theories. Who ever these two men are, they don't reflect the attitudes or beliefs of fellow whatever they ares.
The BOE decides not to mandate the teaching of Intelligent Design and weeks later we have ignorant, intolerant free thinkers and stupid, ignorant, fundies flaming each over conspiracy theories. Stand back and read each others posts and realize out how stupid all of them are.
5 December 2005
at 8:56 p.m.
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John1945 (Anonymous) says…
No one deserves to be beaten for their beliefs, no matter how repugnant or vile they may be. This matter should be thoroughly investigated and those responsible prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
5 December 2005
at 8:59 p.m.
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Informed (Anonymous) says…
Feel free, observer, to link to as many stories as you'd like. Nothing will be accomplished since we both obviously have very strong convictions on this subject. If we were to talk in person, I would argue that perhaps the persons involved in the incidents you cite were not true believers. For instance, although I cannot and will not judge his heart, the actions(the fruit) of Timothy McVey were not those of a follower of Jesus Christ. Period.
This will be my last post on this subject, not because I can't hold my own, but because I choose not to continue in a virtual discussion that can have no real conclusion.
Regards.
5 December 2005
at 9 p.m.
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compmd (Anonymous) says…
Jane,
Mirecki did actually break a tooth. You can't get all your news from one source.
5 December 2005
at 9:04 p.m.
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John1945 (Anonymous) says…
Mirecki is a bigot. I would remove him from any position of authority over another human being in a heartbeat, but I repeat, no one deserves to be beaten simply for expressing their beliefs, or lack thereof.
The essence of the story had nothing to do with his silly course, it had to do with his bigotry. You do not cure bigotry and hatred by engaging in it.
5 December 2005
at 9:10 p.m.
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bytheway (Anonymous) says…
I think Topeka is the craziest religious fundamentalist and Jane isn't much better…but I don't want to submit my opinion negatively since we are all educated people right!!?!?! Have any of you ever driven to work at 6:40am. Trust me it is very dark. I can't even see my car when it is that dark let alone another car. I love in a big city with city lights and I still can't see the cars I pass and the one's behind me. Don't be so ignorant people. What is wrong with America. We are the land of the Religious Right who don't believe in freedom of speech. Nothing like a little repression. God Bless America!!!
5 December 2005
at 9:13 p.m.
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compmd (Anonymous) says…
Sean,
Read my comment here: http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2005/oct…
I was burning waste automatic transmission fluid and soybean oil when some people asked about why my car smelled weird, then verbally attacked me for not supporting America (where they got that conclusion, I don't know) so I got in my car and left. They proceeded to follow me all over Lawrence…then I got them to follow me into the LPD parking lot (I had called ahead to the Five-O) where three squad cars were waiting for them.
That should clear up the term “veggiemobile” for anyone else.
5 December 2005
at 9:14 p.m.
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PoeticHeteroSapien (Anonymous) says…
For those of us crazy liberals, and any conservatives like us in this way, who don't like to get news from only one source:
http://www.kansan.com/stories/2005/de…
But I happened to know about the tooth because I know Dr.Mirecki personally, before I read it in the UDK article.
5 December 2005
at 9:18 p.m.
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bytheway (Anonymous) says…
That is what I am talking about. Religious nuts basically trying to be the AL Qaeda (sp?) of America with their extremist beliefs. I shouldn't get my panties all tied in a knot about it…but it makes me sick to look at what this country is turning into. Our Founding Fathers are probably rolling over in their graves. Look at the knuckle heads they are putting on the Supreme Court. Compmd I feel terrible about what happened to you. Once again…nuts. We are not running out of them. God Bless the USA!!!
5 December 2005
at 9:26 p.m.
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b_asinbeer (Anonymous) says…
bytheway–agreed.
5 December 2005
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PoeticHeteroSapien (Anonymous) says…
Armi -
No, this is twice now that Dr. Mirecki's trust in his fellow human being has gotten him in trouble. He trusted that his comments to friends on a series of private bulletin boards would not be monitored by someone seeking to harm him and spread before the world. Naive, perhaps, but not stupid. Almost all of SOMA's boards are heavily protected, except that one, and our comments are entirely private— NOW he knows that he was naive about that *one* board being accessible to anyone who applied.
You called it “making an ass of himself.” We called it being hilarious. Many call it “hate” but nobody calls it hate when preachers and Intelligent Design proponents say that belief in evolution leads to atheism, communism, and murder. Double standards.
Mirecki's statements indicate that he got out of the car because he felt he had no reason to fear them until they actually attacked him. This is Lawrence— I don't even lock my front door! (no, I'm not giving out my address) They tailgated, so he pulled over. They stopped, so he got out to see what they needed. They might have been trying to tell him his tire was flat or his exhaust pipe was falling down, or a million other things other than seeking to do him harm for believing and saying “the wrong things”. He didn't realize his mistake until it was too late to get away.
I think the real issue here is that you just can't believe Dr. Mirecki is a good guy at heart, and want desperately to think bad things about him because you don't like his opinion on fundamentalist religions.
5 December 2005
at 9:28 p.m.
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John1945 (Anonymous) says…
What this story is about is bigotry and stupidity and yet most of the posts above perpetuate that same stupidity by talking about religious nuts, etc.
As far as getting out of the car goes, I don't care if he got out and mouthed off, it does not give anyone the right to thump on him.
That said, were I followed by someone, I would call the police on my cell phone as did one of the writers above and then when they got out of their vehicle, I would have floored it and drove off.
5 December 2005
at 9:29 p.m.
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Jane (Anonymous) says…
bytheway,
you so crazy.
compmd,
thanks for the update. i stand corrected, he did suffer a broken tooth.
ReachAround,
so, now I'm a crazy Christian fundamentalist Strong Hall office worker? :P
5 December 2005
at 9:31 p.m.
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John1945 (Anonymous) says…
Posted by wendt (anonymous) on December 5, 2005 at 9:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
John, I just got off the phone with the Sheriff's Office.
––––––––
So what did they tell you?
5 December 2005
at 9:32 p.m.
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lawrencian (Anonymous) says…
I think it is a sad day when we believe that someone would fake a beating to get pressure off of himself — I realize that it does happen, but we should certainly give him the benefit of the doubt, as we do to those accused of doing the deed.
Personally, I believe that Prof. Mirecki deserves only the bad that he himself created for himself via the email. Whether or not it was to a 'private' list (although it is obviously not private when the emails were forwarded), the internet, unless the messages are encrypted, is a place where all should assume that every word is public! Let's not beat him up more!
My only other comment is that I believe it is HIGHLY inappropriate for an employee in Strong Hall to make comments, no matter how generic, about the atmosphere or actions taking place there. I hope that you think twice before making these sorts of comments again in the future, or that your boss thinks twice about what information you are privy to. I believe that there are some rules about disseminating information, but if not at the very least you've violated their confidence. I'm also an employee on campus, and I am ashamed to be your coworker.
5 December 2005
at 9:33 p.m.
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PoeticHeteroSapien (Anonymous) says…
John - how is disliking fundamentalist religion “bigotry,” exactly? Seriously.
When someone talks bad about Muslim fundamentalists, do you think they are bigoted against all Muslims, or do you think they are offering a reasoned reaction to people who take the word of the Qur'an and turn it into a gospel of hate, intolerance, and violence?
Likewise, Mirecki has attacked some of the sillier aspects of religion— like the Catholic doctrine (transubstantiation) that says communion wafers literally turn into the body/flesh of Christ when you put it in your mouth, which made him sick when he first tried to take communion.
Or calling the Pope by a nickname, something I've heard almost every Catholic I've ever met do at some point. Or saying that this course would in fact slap the most rabid members of the religious right, the ones who claim that ID isn't religious, in their big fat faces for being such brash and obvious liars. He was calling them on it… he could have been more tactful, but why? We're an atheist group, not a PC Police group. There is no law or code of ethics that says you have to talk nice about people you disagree with all the time. In fact, we specifically have constitutional protection for that kind of speech, and for a good goram reason.
5 December 2005
at 9:33 p.m.
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VoijaRisa (Anonymous) says…
–”Why is it okay for Mireki to be intolerant, rude, and insulting?”–
I don't think anyone has claimed this is a good thing. However, free speech is a constitutional right.
However, there's no laws that you're allowed to engage in physical violence against people that hurt your feeligns. In fact, there's laws against it. But I'm sure John Altevogt is having a party right now. After all, he's admitted to commiting such acts in his past.
Additionally, I have read every Email that has been published. In fact, I recieved them all long before they were publicized. However, I invite you to join the Yahoo! listserve and read the hundreds of moderate Emails there. Every once in awhile, someone blows off steam. Sure, but SOMA is not the religious hate group Altevogt tries to paint us as.
–Atheists are intolerant of believers, believers are intolerant of atheists. This is ridiculous. Enough with the conspiracy theories. Who ever these two men are, they don't reflect the attitudes or beliefs of fellow whatever they ares.”–
Agreed. The zealots that would engage in such a beating do not characterize Christians anywhere. However, to brush it off as an isolated incident is foolhardy. To anyone that would like to believe such things never happen, perhaps you should all look up the story of Joann Bell, whose children were attacked, and her house burned to the ground while the local fire department refused to help. This is not an isolated incident.
5 December 2005
at 9:37 p.m.
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bytheway (Anonymous) says…
PoeticHeteroSapien well said. I don't think I could have said it better than that. People are to easy to jump the gun and make assumptions. I for one am guilty of it…but not in this incident. Why is it we look for the worst in people before we want to see if they have good in them? I have to say I wish I knew Mirecki. I am taking a theology class at a Catholic College and I got into it with my professor about the whole ID thing. We had to give reports on different controversial topics. I took everything I had to listen to a bunch of students under the age of 21 give their thoughts about ID and evolution. Those kids were way off and so was my professor. I guess I am to liberal for even the Catholic religion I was born and raised in.
I still don't think people grasp the whole ID vs. Evolution thing. I don't understand what all these people are scared of. And why should a professor get beaten up since some cockamanie fools decided they didn't like Freedom of Speech.
5 December 2005
at 9:37 p.m.
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Jane (Anonymous) says…
lawrencian,
Just wanted people to know it isn't over, and I didn't give any info that is detrimental.
5 December 2005
at 9:44 p.m.
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bytheway (Anonymous) says…
What is wrong with people today!?!?!?!? Can't we all get along? When does one action make us better than another person?
5 December 2005
at 9:45 p.m.
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John1945 (Anonymous) says…
Everyone has the right to hate whomever they want for any reason they want, no matter how stupid that reason may be. You have every right in the world to utter those hateful comments.
However, a fire department should not have people on their squads who stop to find out what someone thinks before they do their jobs.
The issue with Mirecki isn't the course and there's no question that he's a brilliant scholar, the question is similar to the one implicit in your comments about the fire fighters. Should someone with views and *behaviors* as extreme as Mirecki's be allowed to be in authority over people who might trigger that extreme and irrational behavior?
Those, however, are all side issues to this nonsense. Let me state in every post I make. No one has the right to beat up another human being for their beliefs.
5 December 2005
at 9:49 p.m.
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PoeticHeteroSapien (Anonymous) says…
John - way to not answer my question AT ALL.
Please stop using the word hate or any derivative of that concept until you justify the expression.
Fundy does not equal Christian. Picking on the pope does not make you hate Christians or Christianity. Saying harsh or unkind things about people who push falsehoods in public or who pursue a permanent agenda against people you like (at least, I hope Mirecki likes us!) does not make you hateful. It makes you observant and humorous.
5 December 2005
at 9:49 p.m.
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VoijaRisa (Anonymous) says…
Additionally, I'd like to ask those that really think SOMA is intolerant of religion in general to take a look at the events we've had in the past in which we've engaged in open dialogue with religious groups on campus. Additionally, SOMA raises large amounts of money for charity.
If you really think we're a hate group, please, stop by our meeting this Thursday and observe. We're quite friendly (as long as you realize that most of the “hateful” comments are tongue in cheek).
We don't hate religion, just those that give it a bad name.
5 December 2005
at 9:50 p.m.
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bytheway (Anonymous) says…
Absolutely. Ignorance is bliss to those that choose to live by it. I agree everyone has a right to hate whomever, but doesn't imposing them onto other people inappropriate. I wouldn't let my daughter talk that way so why should anyone else. What I don't understand is how Prof. Mirecki's email from what I read two years ago be all of a sudden pertinent now. I am so tired of seeing schools having to conform to those who are so shut into themselves and their beliefs that they can't acknowledge how much the world is changing. My belief is the very people whom oppose this are the ones getting porno at the porn stores by schools and such. They are the ones who are addicted to internet porn at late nights. Hypocrites unite!!
5 December 2005
at 9:54 p.m.
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John1945 (Anonymous) says…
It seems to me that everyone on here on all sides of the issue should let the police do their work.
I must admit that I'm skeptical, but I still want the sheriff's department to find out what happened and so should every person on here.
If you think it's a put up job, the police are quite skillful at plowing through deceit. And for folks like me who think that good, decent Christian folk are above this, I can tell you I want a full investigation so my folks will be exonerated from all the frivolous accusations here.
I also hope that Dr. Mirecki's injuries are only minor. Anyone on here who claims to be a Chrsitian should be praying for this man's health right now.
5 December 2005
at 9:57 p.m.
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bytheway (Anonymous) says…
I agree John. My heart goes out to him. Being that I am Catholic I will say a rosary for him. Everyone deserves to be treated with respect no matter what their beliefs are. Violence should never, never be considered a priority in expressing ones opinion.
5 December 2005
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John1945 (Anonymous) says…
Posted by wendt (anonymous) on December 5, 2005 at 9:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
You know, John,
Nazis felt justified in hurting people.
–––––––––––––––
How insightful you are for all those of us who missed WW II.
You're not going loopy on us are you, or will you be moving on to the Korean War next?
5 December 2005
at 10:03 p.m.
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VoijaRisa (Anonymous) says…
–”And for folks like me who think that good, decent Christian folk are above this, I can tell you I want a full investigation so my folks will be exonerated from all the frivolous accusations here.”–
John, as an atheist and a member of SOMA that you decided to quote as someone that's “hateful” even I'll agree with you on this.
However, what I think you fail to realize is that not every Christian is a “good, decent Christian”. There's a lot of ignorant, hateful Christians out there too. SOMA and its members have never intended to offend those Christians that do truly live by Christ's guidelines, but many times people take the comments out of context.
I'm sure you're as disgusted by this as we are and will now realize exactly which sort of Christians our comments are directed towards. Additionally, I hope you'll be honest enough to realize that our harsh comments are very narrowly aimed as you say your comments towards Nazis are.
5 December 2005
at 10:13 p.m.
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John1945 (Anonymous) says…
I'm fully aware that all sides of the political fray have their looneys. Look a couple of posts above yours, and you'll see one of yours.
It's our task to see that debate always remains civil and to preserve the rights of all citizens, regardless of their religion, or lack thereof, to speak freely in the marketplace of ideals.
5 December 2005
at 10:15 p.m.
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PoeticHeteroSapien (Anonymous) says…
John1945 - why are you still ignoring me?
(though I imagine this will be ignored, as well)
I can repeat, if necessary.
5 December 2005
at 10:22 p.m.
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VoijaRisa (Anonymous) says…
–”I'm fully aware that all sides of the political fray have their looneys. Look a couple of posts above yours, and you'll see one of yours.”–
I'm glad you're able to make this distinction. Now, would you be kind enough to admit that comments from SOMA memebers that have been inflamatory aren't directed towards upstanding Christians such as yourself, but rather the loonies you have on your side?
5 December 2005
at 10:25 p.m.
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lawrencian (Anonymous) says…
Jane, I doubt that anyone here is under the impression that the chancellor and provost of the university consider the matter 'settled'… You've portrayed yourself as 'in the know': At best, you do 'know' what is going on, and you've betrayed the trust your employer had in you. At worst, you don't really 'know' it, you're just trading water cooler gossip as if it is fact, and that is twice as harmful.
5 December 2005
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Calliope877 (Anonymous) says…
“Everyone has the right to hate whomever they want for any reason they want, no matter how stupid that reason may be. You have every right in the world to utter those hateful comments.” by John1945
Uh, John, this is hardly civil. You sound like you're encouraging hatred.
5 December 2005
at 10:34 p.m.
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Calliope877 (Anonymous) says…
Not to be Miss-State-The-Obvious or anything, but there seems to be alot of hatred going around. Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
5 December 2005
at 10:35 p.m.
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John1945 (Anonymous) says…
Posted by Calliope877 (anonymous) on December 5, 2005 at 10:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
“Everyone has the right to hate whomever they want for any reason they want, no matter how stupid that reason may be. You have every right in the world to utter those hateful comments.” by John1945
Uh, John, this is hardly civil. You sound like you're encouraging hatred
–––––––––––—
Nope, just stating a constitutional fact. I think most folks would have figured that out from the context. perhaps a remedial reading course would be fun for you?
5 December 2005
at 10:36 p.m.
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Calliope877 (Anonymous) says…
Rule #1: Don't EVER use your real name on a bboard….it could get nasty.
5 December 2005
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Calliope877 (Anonymous) says…
John1945,
You're just being mean now. That's not very civil of you.
5 December 2005
at 10:38 p.m.
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John1945 (Anonymous) says…
Posted by Calliope877 (anonymous) on December 5, 2005 at 10:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Rule #1: Don't EVER use your real name on a bboard….it could get nasty.
––––––––—
yes, there are a lot of nuts out there, and more than a few of them are on this forum.
I believe that it's against board policy to expose the real identity of the participants on here. Perhaps that doesn't apply if the offender is a liberal.
5 December 2005
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PoeticHeteroSapien (Anonymous) says…
And he still hasn't answered my question.
5 December 2005
at 10:40 p.m.
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Calliope877 (Anonymous) says…
Wendt,
Yes, I recall John1945 saying that he didn't care about the evolution/I.D. controversy, he just didn't like Mirecki. Bad, bad, bad. Shame, shame. He has so much anger it's just sad.:(
5 December 2005
at 10:44 p.m.
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VoijaRisa (Anonymous) says…
–”And he still hasn't answered my question.”–
Nor has he answered mine.
–”I believe that it's against board policy to expose the real identity of the participants on here.”–
You revealed your own identity in a previous thread. Would you like me to dig it up for you?
5 December 2005
at 10:44 p.m.
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Calliope877 (Anonymous) says…
John1945,
You're still an uncivil meanie. So are you admitting that you're John A.? If so, I think you have yourself to blame for that exposure. What comes around goes around. If you're not, then you're still an uncivil meanie.
5 December 2005
at 10:50 p.m.
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John1945 (Anonymous) says…
Posted by VoijaRisa (anonymous) on December 5, 2005 at 10:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)
–”I'm fully aware that all sides of the political fray have their looneys. Look a couple of posts above yours, and you'll see one of yours.”–
I'm glad you're able to make this distinction. Now, would you be kind enough to admit that comments from SOMA memebers that have been inflamatory aren't directed towards upstanding Christians such as yourself, but rather the loonies you have on your side?
–––––––––
I believe one of the articles mentioned that Dr. Mirecki accosted some guy who was just passing out Bibles, a Gideon I believe. Was he a looney?
5 December 2005
at 10:52 p.m.
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Calliope877 (Anonymous) says…
Wendt,
That's very sad. Anger doesn't solve anything. Anger begets anger. I hope you're wrong about his identity, but if you're correct, and he is who you say he is….I think he needs some professional help.:(
5 December 2005
at 10:52 p.m.
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John1945 (Anonymous) says…
Posted by Calliope877 (anonymous) on December 5, 2005 at 10:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
John1945,
You're still an uncivil meanie. So are you admitting that you're John A.? If so, I think you have yourself to blame for that exposure. What comes around goes around. If you're not, then you're still an uncivil meanie.
––––––––––––––—
You really do need that course in remedial reading sweetheart. the post referred to the person who outed Jane whoever it was, if that is indeed the real connection. Again, stop wasting time on silly courses and take one that would be helpful.
You folks are losing it.
5 December 2005
at 10:55 p.m.
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BrainCase (Anonymous) says…
Sun Tzu said, and I paraphrase, “choose your enemies well, for you will come to resemble them”.
The U.S. political enemy du jour are the fundamentalist Muslims in the Middle East, and we see here in the states the rise of the fundamentalists in response. If you are against the fundamentalist wave, then you are a traitor. If you're against the fundamentalist wave, you should lose your job, and get replaced by someone who more closely reflects the fundamentalists.
John, you're a coward. You can't deal with an opposing point of view. If someone is open-minded, then that goes against your principals, and therefore should be removed from any state office, eh? You are afraid that our children won't grow up believing the things you believe, and you think that is cause for panic. Well, guess what? I'll make sure my kids go to church every Sunday and grow up suspicious of the power-mad extremists whether they are a member of the religious right or the raical left.
No suckers for your power-base here, Mr. Talibaptist.
BC
5 December 2005
at 10:57 p.m.
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MadAnthony (Anonymous) says…
Back to the potential for a ruse. Anyone remember the “almost terminated from employment” scene from Fight Club?
5 December 2005
at 11:02 p.m.
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Calliope877 (Anonymous) says…
“You really do need that course in remedial reading sweetheart.”
No, I don't…honeybunny. Again, you're being uncivil. Why don't you stop with the belittling and insults? It's not helping your case. Why don't you answer Poetic and Voija's questions? Perhaps you're the one that would benefit from remedial reading?
5 December 2005
at 11:02 p.m.
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VoijaRisa (Anonymous) says…
–”I believe one of the articles mentioned that Dr. Mirecki accosted some guy who was just passing out Bibles, a Gideon I believe. Was he a looney?”–
Perhaps its you that needs the lesson in remedial reading. No one in SOMA has ever physically attacked someone passing out bibles.
And I'm more than happy to admit that this member is on the extreme side. However, he is not representative of the entire group, and as you yourself admit, he has free reign to voice his opinions. Additionally, you might understand his sentiment if you were to know his history.
So, I'll ask again: Are you willing to admit that the actions of one member do not reflect the views of the entire group?
5 December 2005
at 11:08 p.m.
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Calliope877 (Anonymous) says…
Thank you, VoijaRisa. :) You're awesome.
5 December 2005
at 11:08 p.m.
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oxandale (Anonymous) says…
Dear everyone -
As we all know… the issues surround the professor are highly senstive to people who are directly involved and for those who have an opinion on the subject. In the grand scheme ofthings, i hope that all who posted their opinions can agree taht assualting some one for thier opinions/beliefs are not good. None of us have to agree or disagree with the professor, but no one should be assualting him or anyone else who directly involved.
5 December 2005
at 11:09 p.m.
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VoijaRisa (Anonymous) says…
–”Thank you, VoijaRisa. :) You're awesome.”–
Just another “evil atheist”.
5 December 2005
at 11:10 p.m.
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John1945 (Anonymous) says…
I should think it would depend on who that member was and how central they were to the group. Certainly no group can be held responsible who the behavior of every member.
That said, if serveral of the group's members behave in the same manner, and if its leaders behave in a certain manner, I think it's fair to assert that the group, as a whole, embraces similar values.
That's why it's important for KU to seriously evaluate how having leaders with Mirecki and Miller's hateful views and *actions* reflect on the institution as a whole.
5 December 2005
at 11:12 p.m.
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John1945 (Anonymous) says…
Oxandale:
If you look at all the posts above, that consensus was reached at the very beginning.
5 December 2005
at 11:16 p.m.
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OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…
Reach:
The things you posted about Jane are highly irresponsible. Your posts could actually get someone in some real danger. It's time for you to get banned. If only LJWorld.com had the nuggets to actually do that.
5 December 2005
at 11:21 p.m.
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Calliope877 (Anonymous) says…
John1945,
It's obvious that you're the one that needs that “Remedial Reading Course” you've been touting. Your myopic viewpoint will never be justified. It's very sad that you have such a stupid vendetta. And it's very sad that you're such a hateful, little man.
With that said, I think I'll settle down to bed and read the rest of Milton's “Paradise Lost”.
Kiss my butt, John.
Goodnight, everybody!
5 December 2005
at 11:23 p.m.
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OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…
John:
You say that we have a concensus that this act of violence was wrong, yet your posts are very suggestive in the direction that you promote hate. You don't see a contradiction? I don't think you have a firm grip on either 1) the depth and intensity of your anger, or 2) the fact that your words are an indirect endorsement of violence. You can't say “hate, hate hate” and say “violence is wrong” all at the same time. Jesus said if you hate, you have committed murder in your heart. That's more than just food for thought… that's the truth. You are far too cavalier about your hate.
5 December 2005
at 11:25 p.m.
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John1945 (Anonymous) says…
Posted by OldEnuf2BYurDad (anonymous) on December 5, 2005 at 11:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Reach:
The things you posted about Jane are highly irresponsible. Your posts could actually get someone in some real danger. It's time for you to get banned. If only LJWorld.com had the nuggets to actually do that.
––––––––––-
If you take a look at the posts above, you'll find implied threats, bigotry and an assortment of violations of the terms of use, but strangely the Journal-World seems almost oblivious to such matters and quite inconsistent when they derive from the left side of the table.
5 December 2005
at 11:27 p.m.
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John1945 (Anonymous) says…
Posted by OldEnuf2BYurDad (anonymous) on December 5, 2005 at 11:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
John:
You say that we have a concensus that this act of violence was wrong, yet your posts are very suggestive in the direction that you promote hate. You don't see a contradiction?
––––––––—
Which post would that be? I must have missed something.
5 December 2005
at 11:31 p.m.
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RayanaSandy (Anonymous) says…
I know this will get deleted… but John: I hate you.
5 December 2005
at 11:32 p.m.
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John1945 (Anonymous) says…
Posted by wendt (anonymous) on December 5, 2005 at 11:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
OldEnuf:
I think the entire content of today's blog will become evidence very soon….
–––––––––––—
Why, are you having a sanity hearing?
5 December 2005
at 11:33 p.m.
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OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…
Somethings, John (plural). Missed a lot of stuff.
Do you ever talk to anyone about what you are feeling? If you had a toothache, you'd see a dentist, right? Maybe some time with a counselor would help you face some of your pain. I'm serious. At this hour, it's just me, you and Wendt. So tell me, for real, do you grow weary of the consequenses of being in constant pain? Enough to consider seeing someone who could help you get to the bottom of some of your self-loathing?
Honestly, I'm 100% serious.
5 December 2005
at 11:34 p.m.
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John1945 (Anonymous) says…
Posted by RayanaSandy (anonymous) on December 5, 2005 at 11:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I know this will get deleted… but John: I hate you.
–––––––
And you have that constitutional right to do so. At least this time you're hating an individual rather than an entire group, so we're making progress.
P.S. I hope they don't delete it.
5 December 2005
at 11:36 p.m.
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oxandale (Anonymous) says…
John:
All thought that is the consensus from the beginning…with all of the expression of dislike towards this man that those who are expressing dislike of him may not have too much of a problem of his assualt. I can undertand disagreeing with the professors views, but dislike him to hte point of assualt (or being relatively ok with assualt on any level) i find to be rather sad.
5 December 2005
at 11:36 p.m.
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kansasboy (Anonymous) says…
hahahahahahahahahahaha!
5 December 2005
at 11:36 p.m.
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John1945 (Anonymous) says…
Posted by OldEnuf2BYurDad (anonymous) on December 5, 2005 at 11:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)
At this hour, it's just me, you and Wendt. So tell me, for real, do you grow weary of the consequenses of being in constant pain? Enough to consider seeing someone who could help you get to the bottom of some of your self-loathing?
Honestly, I'm 100% serious.
–––––––––––—
Well, if it's just the three of us you two stay here and keep an eye out for the black helicopters and I'll go get my work done.
5 December 2005
at 11:36 p.m.
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VoijaRisa (Anonymous) says…
–”I should think it would depend on who that member was and how central they were to the group.”–
The member in question is not a central member and is one many of us have considered asking to leave the group. However, after discussing the matter with that member, he has since toned down his arguments.
Additionally, no member has EVER advocated violence. Aside from this one member, no member has ever verbally assaulted anyone of faith in a public forum. We often take jabs at the looneys, but as I've stated several times, but you seem reluctant to admidt, these jabs have never been directed towards the religious populus in general.
I don't expect you to magically have divined this, and would hope that you would take our invitation to sit in on our meeting this coming Thursday if you can find time, and realize that we are not the hate group you have continually accused us of being.
5 December 2005
at 11:38 p.m.
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PoeticHeteroSapien (Anonymous) says…
John1945 - Our “leader” is named Andrew Stangl, a junior at KU. Our vice president is a graduate student named Paul Youk. Our previous president is named Stephanie, and she's now our webmaster. Those are the people who are “central” to our group, as well as those who routinely attend our meetings and events, such as myself.
I have seen Dr. Mirecki at a few of our meetings, like literally three or four in the years I've been in SOMA, but for the entire first year of my time in SOMA, I never saw him once. All he was to most of us was the guy who signed the piece of paper that allowed us to exist as a student group… and we felt he was kind for doing so on our behalf.
It was only much later, after SOMA became involved in sponsoring several events related to religious understanding, communication, and tolerance, that we asked for his help in contacting other members of the local religious community that did not belong to the overwhelming (and thus easy to find) majority faith here in the United States.
Once he saw how we were working toward smashing the image that fundamentalist Christianity as the only “real” belief here in the USA, he began to work with us by lampooning the silliness pushed into the public sphere in the name of fundamentalist religion and talking to the right people so our next panel on religious tolerance could have a representative from the Muslim student center, for instance (they had initially denied our request for a participant, because they assumed, like many, that the group of atheists contacting them was out to harm their good name— in fact we did the opposite).
Since Dr. Mirecki began to get involved with us, I have come to know him as an equal, and have gained a great deal of respect for his tolerance, patience, and sense of honor as a human being, even though he has a belief in a higher power and I do not. Knowing as I have come to in the past year, it pains me greatly to see his words blown up way out of proportion; to see him attacked because a fundamentalist Christian thinks, like so many, that their way of Christianity is THE right, the real, way to be Christian. To see his character additionally attacked by some of the same people who helped smear his name in the first place further infuriates me—
but nothing infuriates me more than being repeatedly called hateful, a hate group, compared to the Arayan Nations, and even “crypto-Nazi”, without so much as a shred of justification other than not liking what some of our members have to say when lashing out against or mocking the people who have oppressed us, in our view, most of our lives.
5 December 2005
at 11:39 p.m.
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PoeticHeteroSapien (Anonymous) says…
What IS “crypto-Nazi”, anyway? Does it mean Altevogt thinks we wear secret decoder rings?
In this country, it IS okay to make fun of people for their most deeply-held beliefs. More than that, you can make quite a living doing it professionally. Don't believe me? Turn on Comedy Central for an hour and count the number of times the man or woman on the screen makes fun of things held dear by Altevogt and O'Connor. I can't believe we're even SAYING that it's now somehow not okay to pick on the dominant social paradigm.
Now please, justify your statement or stop making it. In the name of Reason.
5 December 2005
at 11:41 p.m.
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Mr_Christopher (Anonymous) says…
Look at all the hateful posts here at LJWorld…Read the newspapers (online) in York and Dover. You'll find that ID has the same affect in every community. It polarizes communities and turns neighbors against neighbors. In Dover you'll find people who will no longer speak to their next door neighbors, all because of the Dsicovery?Dishonesty Institute. It forces religion the the front and center of public debate and makes peoples faith the subject of scientific inquiry and public scrutiny.
It is bad news I tell you and has no business pretending to be science. The Discovery/Dishonesty Institute does ALL Christians and ALL believers a terrible offense by putting their faith under a microscope.
Science has no choice but to abandon scientific method or attack the unscientific ideas promoted within ID. Of course many Christians feel *they* are being attacked.
Wake up people and look beyond Kansas. Read the papers in every community where ID gets a foothold communities are polarized and people get hateful with one another.
ID is a social tumor. It is not science. It is bad news. Look at you and look at the posts here. Read about Dover PA. Look at Ohio.
ID is a breeding ground for hatred and conflict. It is dishonest and nothing good comes from it.
5 December 2005
at 11:44 p.m.
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OldEnuf2BYurDad (Anonymous) says…
I hit a nerve. Your completely off-subject and irrelevant response is avoidance.
How many broken relationships are in your history? You're about 60 years old. Still married to wife #1? Do your adult children go out of their way to keep in touch, or is it just holidays and birthdays? Do you have “bonds” with the people who are supposed to be close to you as a dad or a spouse, or is everyone at arm's length to you?
You dodged it John, so I'll ask plainly: can you see the consequenses of your own self-loathing playing out in your personal life?
5 December 2005
at 11:47 p.m.
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VoijaRisa (Anonymous) says…
OldEnuf2BYurDad, the personal attacks are rather pointless.
5 December 2005
at 11:51 p.m.
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Boxcar_Bobby85 (Anonymous) says…
Okay, we get it already Wendt. You have apparently “outed” John1945 repeatedly, and are now implying that he is responsible for assaulting the professor. I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I used to find your posts at least intellectually provocative and well-reasoned, whether I agreed with your position or not. Recently your contributions amount to little more than thinly- disguised accusations. I fear your lack of tact on this issue has indirectly encouraged others on your “side” to engage in even more reprehensible abuses of this forum. It's really sad. You can do better………
5 December 2005
at 11:56 p.m.
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oxandale (Anonymous) says…
Well, I just hope the professor gets better. Good nite everyone, let go of any hostility if you carry it towards this man or anyone else. Its the holidays. If you are a person of any faith, i hope your holidays go safe and well. If you are aperson with out faith, i hope your winter goees safe and you stay warm. Becareful driving on the roads, they can be slippery. I wish well to those who are believers of some religion and those who are not.
5 December 2005
at 11:57 p.m.
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VoijaRisa (Anonymous) says…
Psst. Wendt. PoeticHereroSapien is a SOMA member too.
5 December 2005
at 11:58 p.m.
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Jane (Anonymous) says…
ReachAround,
You are wrong. I post under a ficticious name. I don't know Jane Tuttle, and I hope she won't get into any trouble because of what I wrote. Yeah, I am a water cooler gossiper. Leave the *real* Jane out of this.
6 December 2005
at midnight
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ryanjasondesch (Anonymous) says…
This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.
6 December 2005
at 12:01 a.m.
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DaREEKKU (Anonymous) says…
I just read through these posts and half of them don't make any sense at all. I'm completely lost….WTF is the point!? All it amounts to is bickering back and forth! jebus h christ! The man got beaten for representing an extreme view against Christianity! The difference? He didn't beat it into somebody! Physical violence is wrong, period. Those guys were wrong, period. For those of you thinking he beat himself up….give me a break. For those of you making pointless personal attacks, shut it! despite your religion or views, something MUST be done about this! We need to show the world that at least ONE place in Kansas will not tolerate this kind of action…..let's at least agree on that. I didn't move to Lawrence to be put in danger, I moved to Lawrence based on it's melting pot of diversity and accepting population yet I find the opposite. My roommate never had anything anti-gay yelled at him in public in Topeka, then he moved here. And now, I find that people are being beaten because they are not Christian!? Common Lawrence, we need to take care of this.
6 December 2005
at 12:02 a.m.
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VoijaRisa (Anonymous) says…
–”I wish well to those who are believers of some religion and those who are not.”–
Thanks ox. Happy holidays at you too. :)
6 December 2005
at 12:03 a.m.
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PoeticHeteroSapien (Anonymous) says…
Jane's a pretty common pseudonym, agreed. I certainly agree that outing a person online is massively uncool and out of bounds, and that the person who did so should have been immediately banned, and the post deleted.
At the very least, the post should be deleted because it has the potential to endanger someone unfairly.
6 December 2005
at 12:09 a.m.
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VoijaRisa (Anonymous) says…
–”Unless SOMA distributes decoder rings….”–
Perhaps we should offer some and see if we can't get a few more members ;P
6 December 2005
at 12:15 a.m.
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VoijaRisa (Anonymous) says…
–”I'm starting a death-metal Christian rock band that advocates violence against heathens in the the name of the ultimate bad-ass of all time, God. Who's with me?”–
You could call it “The Inquisition” but I bet that name's already taken. :P
6 December 2005
at 12:15 a.m.
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Boxcar_Bobby85 (Anonymous) says…
Thank you, oxandale. Best post of the night by far.
Wendt, I'll be following the issue with great interest. For the purposes of this forum, however, let's try to keep away from personal accusations when it comes to potentially criminal matters. I'm no apologist for the JW, but I respect the fact that they allow this outlet and do not restrain passionate debate. Let's keep it that way…..Good night all!
6 December 2005
at 12:18 a.m.
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Jane (Anonymous) says…
Yes, Good Night All :)
6 December 2005
at 12:22 a.m.
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b_asinbeer (Anonymous) says…
Seriously, what is wrong with you people???!!! Republican or Democrat….a person was assaulted! How about innocent until proven guilty? No wonder there's so much hatred in this world today….very saddening.
6 December 2005
at 12:24 a.m.
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raine (Anonymous) says…
wow.. first off does mirecki always go into eat at 6:40 in the morning? were these bozos just lying in wait?? if they weren't and it is soooooo dark out at that time how did they know it was him? i think if mirecki was really attacked it was a random act of violence by some rednecks who didn't like the way he combed his hair.
there is not one bit of evidence to suggest otherwise that we know of.
6 December 2005
at 12:32 a.m.
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raine (Anonymous) says…
“The Douglas County Sheriff's Office has more than a little bit.”
Obviously, they are holding onto that evidence until they see fit to reveal it, so all these suppositions that it was disgruntled christians or that mirecki did it himself are just such, suppositions.. rational people i think would wait until there were more details before engaging in this big long heated debate.
6 December 2005
at 12:52 a.m.
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VoijaRisa (Anonymous) says…
–”there is not one bit of evidence to suggest otherwise that we know of.”–
Perhaps you forget Mirecki's testimony that during the attack he heard his agressors mentioning the Email?
6 December 2005
at 2:03 a.m.
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emeryemery (Anonymous) says…
What kind of Devolution am I witnessing here? I'm horrified by all of this. No amount of archaic behavior is ever going to justify the bible thumpers. Try reading that fat book of fiction you call holy! You're right, it is full of holes, but there is a lot in there about tolerance and love. And talk about pornography?!!! Man the bible titilates like no other!
Premature ejaculation (Leviticus 15:2-15; 22:3-5)
Wet dreams (Leviticus 15:16-18, 32)
Voyeurism (Leviticus 18:6-20)
Damaged testicles (Leviticus 21:20; Deuteronomy 23:1)
People taking a dump in the middle of camp (Deuteronomy 23:12-14)
Hemorrhoids (1 Samuel 5:9; 6:4-5)
People urinating on a wall (1 Samuel 25:22; 26:34; 1 Kings 14:10; 16:11; 21:22; 2 Kings 9:8)
People eating their own feces and drinking their urine (2 Kings 18:27; Isaiah 36:12; Ezekiel 4:12, 15)
Menstruation (just about all of Leviticus)
But I digress. As I read the posts from people who were “designed” I was moved to respond out of a shear principal. Everyone seems to think they have a right not to be offended. That's simply concentrated ignorance. You do not have the right to censor someone if thier beliefs don't fit into your ancient paradigm.
You do not have the right to package your desire to control others in the form of reconstituted Dogma. That's all ID is. Repackaged, regurgitated Rhetoric.
Guess what? You live in the home of the free. That's right, you're free to believe any ignorant tripe you want to suckle from your mommy's teet but you are not free to demand that we all drink from the same rancid well.
So don't think your questions about divorce and happiness are going to somehow convert those of us who don't need to be designed. You may drag your knuckles in the other direction, sir. We are perfectly happy evolving.
6 December 2005
at 2:17 a.m.
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emeryemery (Anonymous) says…
Let me also add that I grew up in kansas City and spent a bit of my days in Lawrence. When I read that kansas had endorsed the ID debacle I was horrified, embarrassed and proud that I had left kansas when I did.
I am no longer a kansan. (I will not capitalize kansas until it grows up) I live in Los Angeles California. When I came across this article, I was simply appalled and I had no choice but to sound off.
Just wanted to clear that up.
As you were.
Sincerely,
Emery Emery
6 December 2005
at 12:15 p.m.
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DaREEKKU (Anonymous) says…
Emery Emery! i heart you! hahahhahahahahah. soooo true!
6 December 2005
at 2:14 p.m.
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MadAnthony (Anonymous) says…
All of the Founders believed in ID and most all of our foundational political documents are predicated upon ID. “Providence” those ignorant knaves called the infinite personal who guided creation and placed Law in the hearts of men (make that “people” for those who need me to say that to keep reading).
Are we, by rejecting ID as laughable at best, rejecting the core of the creed that defined our culture? Are we too sophisicated to carrry on the legacy?
yes we are. Brave New World dawning in America. Stay tuned for details. (See past 30 years for prologue).
And buckle your seat belts, for cultural collapses can get bumpy. Very bumpy. See Germany circa 1930.
And, again, anyone else willing to consider the possibility the good religion prof may have taken a cue from that great cinematic event called Fight Club? Or is that simply off the table given his popularity? Why, the favored elites would never deceive us, would they? Only if they are Christians!
7 December 2005
at 2:07 p.m.
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emeryemery (Anonymous) says…
MadAnthony said;
Mr. Mad,
Yes, well, they believed in Slavery, subjugation of woman and Child labor too but they did have the foresight to create a living evolving set of standards by which to govern. Interesting, they were archaic in their religious and dogmatic beliefs but they were advanced enough to create a living, breathing Constitution? I wonder if, on the 7th day, they rested?
Yes, we are rejecting ID. It's that simple. We are far too evolved to carry on any legacy that is riddled with lies, contradiction, horrific consequences and ideology that pits our invisible friend against everyone else's invisible friend. ID puts the IDIOT back into ideology.
Yes, cultural collapse is indeed a bumpy ride. Sadly, we are a bit too sophisticated to let the thumpers get another run at bringing down our culture with ignorant, ancient ideas. You will see. The conservatives can whittle all it wants at our rights but thanks to your bible thumping founder's excellent forethought, you will see that you cannot hijack our country and make it a your personal oligarchy. Try all you want, you will not succeed.
Not unless you can offer any sliver of evidence. I know you're not big on evidence and you live your life out of a set of beliefs you inherited and base your choices in acceptance and faith, but you will not find a court in the land that will put you on the witness stand because you simply have FAITH that Prof. Mirecki is a liar. No matter how much you pray, you will never succeed in your goal to assimilate us all. But you keep preying (intentional misspelling) and we will keep defending our right to live life the way we choose, just as you are free to do, Mr. MadAnthony.
7 December 2005
at 9:06 p.m.
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kwagar (Anonymous) says…
Me thinks there's been some inbreeding among the intelligence design people. How else does one explain so many crackpots in one place?
The ID people have become the laughingstocks of the world. Why they would want to refute proven science is beyond me. If they don't believe in evolution, they shouldn't get flu shots, whose serum is based on watching the genes evolve.
I think they are trying to start a religious war. They'll be sorry.