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Do you consider yourself to be patriotic?

Asked at Massachusetts Street on July 1, 2008

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Photo of Adam Andretti

“Absolutely. My father immigrated here from war-torn Italy. So I was raised by someone who knows firsthand what it’s like to be without freedom and without many of the things we take for granted. We’re very fortunate to live here, and we have a lot to be proud of.”

Photo of Margaux DeRoux

“I consider myself patriotic in that I have hope for my country, respect for its past and belief in its potential. But I dislike when patriotism is used for a tool of oppression or divisiveness.”

Photo of Danny Struble

“I would say yes. I vote in every election, even the midterms, and I think being patriotic means being involved and doing your civic duty. So I try to stay informed and participate as much as possible.”

Photo of Christy Hunt

“I think I’m pretty patriotic. I always celebrate the Fourth, Memorial Day, Flag Day and Presidents Day.”

Comments

beatrice 6 years, 1 month ago

cato, I said McCain's age is a concern for me. The same would be true if the candidate was a Democrat. I'm not saying McCain can't do the job, just that his age is a concern. His politics are a far greater concern, but age is still a concern. Plus, I also will strongly argue that the stress, which includes a lot of travel and late hours for the job of President, is far greater than that of judges, who don't have to keep anywhere near the same schedule. If McCain was 100, as is Judge Brown you mention, would you vote for him without even a slight bit of concern or hesitation? (If you say a 100 year old President wouldn't and shouldn't be a concern, I won't believe you.) Would that then make you a hypocrit, or worse still, would it make you no better than a racist, which is what you said of me? Or are we just claiming that we have a different line in which age does become a concern? I have a joke for you. Think of it as an analogy for this age issue. A wealthy man meets a woman in Las Vegas. He asks her, "Will you sleep with me if I pay you a million dollars?" She stammers after a moment's hesistation, "Yes." He then says, "Great, will you sleep with me for a hundred dollars?" and she quickly replies, "No. What do you think I am, a whore?" He retorts, "Why, we've already established that. Now we are just negotiating the price."

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AsherFusco 6 years, 1 month ago

So is that THE Andrew Andretti of the Andretti racing family?http://www.indycar.com/pro/news/story.php?story_id=9826If so, what's he doing in Lawrence?

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cato_the_elder 6 years, 1 month ago

Speaking of rebellious conduct, a friend of mine relates how years ago he was dropping off his young daughter at a Lawrence preschool when he observed a four-year old boy screaming at his mother and telling her in no uncertain terms to visit the nether regions at her earliest convenience. She couldn't get him to stop, and he was still cursing at her when the preschool teachers pulled him inside the doors. As my friend returned to his car, he observed a bumper sticker on the mother's car that said, of course, "Question Authority."

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jonas 6 years, 1 month ago

kansas778: Perhaps that should have read that you, yourself, are not able to tell the difference between the noun usage of "claim" and the verb usage of "claim."Main Entry2: claim Function: noun Date: 14th century1: a demand for something due or believed to be due 2 a: a right to something; specifically : a title to a debt, privilege, or other thing in the possession of another b: an assertion open to challenge 3: something that is claimed; especially : a tract of land staked outI would have thought that you would know that. Perhaps your eagerness to throw egg on a liberal overran your common sense?

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Flap Doodle 6 years, 1 month ago

I just won $5.00. I bet myself that bozo would be chiming in early on this thread with his usual message. :)I did lose the over-under on him mentioning the President's name. :(

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Satirical 6 years, 1 month ago

Patriotism is: Not asking what your country can do for you, but asking what you can do for your country - (paraphrasing) JFK.Interesting how so many liberals fail to understand his message from one of their most beloved leaders.

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stephenj 6 years, 1 month ago

I've always thought patriotic zeal is tantamount to global racism, but then again I'm a dirty liberal.Hooray for our side!)

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cato_the_elder 6 years, 1 month ago

Beatrice, are you one of the table-pounding leftists like Ellen Goodman who purport to champion vigorously all laws against discrimination - including, of course, age discrimination - but are now falling all over each other to make jokes about Senator McCain's age? Do you not realize that he has more practical experience in his little finger than Senator Obama has in his whole body? Your hypocrisy is showing - but, again, you're certainly not alone among the sea of other leftist hypocrites on this issue.

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cato_the_elder 6 years, 1 month ago

Bozo, if one were to take a census of the number of those in Lawrence's current population who invariably want to blame their own country first for all of the perceived wrongs in the world, it would become quite clear that Lawrence has become a haven for lock-step drones who enjoy demonstrating their lack of patriotism on a frequent basis.

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trinity 6 years, 1 month ago

am i reading the question wrong? i think it says "do you consider yourSELF to be patriotic", not "do you consider the city/people of lawrence or anywhere else in the country to be patriotic".to answer the question as written-yes, i do. :)

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blahblahblah 6 years, 1 month ago

Yes, of course I am! I have my American flag lapel pin and "Support our Troops" ribbon to prove it! I would never dream of voting for some Muslim named Hussein. That is clearly un-Patriotic and un-American!

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cato_the_elder 6 years, 1 month ago

Beatrice, you continue to miss the point, namely the hypocrisy of those who think as you do. The relevant consideration is that there is no maximum age specified for the office of president. By way of just one related example, we have federal judges throughout America who are handling very stressful jury trials and appellate cases well into their 80's and 90's, and in many cases do a better job than their younger colleagues because of the wealth of experience that they bring to the bench. In fact, Kansas has a very active federal trial judge in Wichita, Wesley E. Brown, who was appointed by President Kennedy in 1962 and turned 100 this year. I know you won't admit that age wouldn't be a factor of concern to you if your Democrat of choice were 71, but hypocrisy among leftists is certainly nothing new.

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RonBurgandy 6 years, 1 month ago

Exactly what Margaux DeRoux said. Also, Bozo makes a great point.Yes I do, very much.

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JJE007 6 years, 1 month ago

I seem patriotic but it's really just the patriot act.Yep. It's guano...ton, o' mo'.

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MasterShake 6 years, 1 month ago

Posted by dandelion"Questioning authority is patriotic, because it's exactly what our founders did, and expected citizens to do."I certainly hope this sentiment is not forgotten if Mr. Obama wins in November.

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beatrice 6 years, 1 month ago

Yes. I've never sold secrets to our enemies, I vote, I donate time and money to several causes and I question our government. I guess that makes me as patriotic as most. cato, in your slam against liberalism, are you suggesting that George Washington would recognize the Bible-thumping, flag waving, "family values" bunch that passes for Republicans today? Please. He might, however, recognize John McCain. Not his politics, but the man himself. I think they attended the same junior high together, though were in different classes.

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mom_of_three 6 years, 1 month ago

I am patriotic, but not as much as the rest of my family. This election has thrown them into a tizzy.

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dandelion 6 years, 1 month ago

I am very patriotic, but not blind to when my country screws up. I am a big defender of the constitution. Wearing a flag pin and following wannbe celebrities like AnneC and Rush, who are only trying to make it rich is not patriotism. Questioning authority is patriotic, because it's exactly what our founders did, and expected citizens to do.

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kansas778 6 years, 1 month ago

Jonas, the word claim can be used as a noun or a verb. Duplenty used it as a noun, then called it a verb. I couldn't care less about which it is, but if he's going to be snotty and paste definitions of words, he had better get them right. He talked about "a claim" then gave the (wrong) definition for the verb "to claim." So I see that you are trying to throw egg in my face without thinking about it first. That is unless you think that in "a claim" there is somewhere a verb to be found...Of course this entire silly escapade is just Duplenty's way of avoiding the real question of whether the 21st century liberal platform conforms to JFK's quote or not by nitpicking word choice and definitions.

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i_have_only_valid_opinions 6 years, 1 month ago

OK, Multi, I will settle down...you want to have lunch with me at Teller's sometime?

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i_have_only_valid_opinions 6 years, 1 month ago

I consider Margaux DeRoux to be extremely cute!!!

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 1 month ago

"questioning illegitimate authority"They don't get any more illegitimate than BushCo.

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BigAl 6 years, 1 month ago

I have always wondered why a lot of my neighbors (yes, some of them are definitely right-wing) had to go out and buy a flag AFTER 9/11. I heard all the complaints about how Target, Walmart, etc was running out of flags. I also have wondered why these same people didn't already own a flag? I did and I am a veteran that supports Obama.

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chet_larock 6 years, 1 month ago

"Will you be as zealous in your support of free expression should that make it to the table?"Talk radio idiots are as free to say what they want and make idiots of themselves as anyone else.

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jonas 6 years, 1 month ago

Satirical (Anonymous) says:"Multi:We will never give Hawaii back, see the historic case of Finders v. Keepers."Out of curiosity, then, what do you think about China and Tibet?

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Satirical 6 years, 1 month ago

jonas...(1) Why are we talking about Tibet?"though it's possible that my sources could be considered a little past merely anecdotal."(2) By anecdotal I was referring to an NPR story. So, I assume you must have firsthand knowledge?

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cato_the_elder 6 years, 1 month ago

Ceallach, I agree with your second paragraph - but I wonder how many unbathed leftists will nonetheless unhesitatingly support the re-institution of a congressionally imposed "Fairness Doctrine" for commercial radio broadcasts, which I guarantee you would occur were Senator Obama elected - especially were he to have a filibuster-proof Democrat Congress - which would require "opposing points of view" to be broadcast in all cases, thereby for commercial reasons effectively killing political talk radio? Will you be as zealous in your support of free expression should that make it to the table?

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Satirical 6 years, 1 month ago

Multi...We will never give Hawaii back, see the historic case of Finders v. Keepers.

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sgtwolverine 6 years, 1 month ago

I always thought the idea of patriotism was separate from politics, but ... well, obviously, that's not the case. Oh well. I guess we'll be enduring another dull, caustic, repetitive political thread today.

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kansas778 6 years, 1 month ago

duplenty (Anonymous) says: Satirical, this is such a stupid thing to say. One could say absolutely the same thing about conservatives, but unless you provide some actual facts demonstrating this, you just look petty.****Being conservative, by definition, would mean asking the government for help as little as possible. Don't confuse Republicans with conservatives; McCain and Bush are not conservatives. And calling for "facts" that would demonstrate such a belief is itself petty. It is a generalization regarding liberals' support of government programs that are intended* to benefit the poor and middle class. Do you disagree that government heath care, welfare, social security, food stamps etc. are planks in the liberal platform?

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Satirical 6 years, 1 month ago

duplenty...Why don't you attempt to counter my arguments rather than eliciting my estimation of unpatriotic liberals and conservatives? By definition a (true) conservative does not believe in redistribution of wealth.

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BigAl 6 years, 1 month ago

Satirical (Anonymous) says: Patriotism is: Not asking what your country can do for you, but asking what you can do for your country - (paraphrasing) JFK.Interesting how so many liberals fail to understand his message from one of their most beloved leaders.****************Another nice spin Satirical. But, I am a proud Democrat that volunteered for military service during the Viet Nam war. Unlike Dick (5 deferment) Cheney, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly and other conservatives that let our generation's war fall to others. They didn't answer the call when it was their turn but they have no problem sending in our sons and daughters. Hypocritical? You bet!I submit to you that these weak kneed big-talkers fit the mold that JFK was talking about.

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jonas 6 years, 1 month ago

Duplenty: Nah, looking up at the original, he is right that you used the noun form and referenced the verb form, which surely proves that you are stupid, not that he is nitpicking for whatever reason on a very, very minor point. Kansas778: I do believe that the verb was the "make" in the verb phrase "make a claim" which holds the same definition, certainly in vernacular usage, as the verb form of "claim," assuming that was a question you actually wanted my knowledge on.

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EirishHawk 6 years, 1 month ago

George,"Just another "wham, bam, thank 'ya ma'am" I got your resources and sucked you dry, I'm out of here,"Does that mean you think we should stay in Iraq? leave Iraq? you seem confused.

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kansas778 6 years, 1 month ago

duplenty (Anonymous) says:satirical wants to make a claim _____claim verb - to assert or maintain as a fact: i.e. She claimed that he was telling the truth.****You don't even know the difference between nouns and verbs.

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Satirical 6 years, 1 month ago

jonas..."Out of curiosity, then, what do you think about China and Tibet?"Following the logic of Finders v. Keepers, Tibet (finders) is subject to Chinese (keepers) law.But on a serious note, I have heard anecdotal evidence that the situation between China and Tibet is more congenial than that of U.S. and the Native Americans.

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Satirical 6 years, 1 month ago

Duplenty:"satirical wants to make a claim about "liberals" (all of them?), but provided not a single example."And to quote you again "If only you could read"I wrote: "so many liberals" not ALL liberals. And the facts are obvious as provided by Kansas778 "It is a generalization regarding liberals' support of government programs that are intended to benefit the poor and middle class. Do you disagree that government heath care, welfare, social security, food stamps etc. are planks in the liberal platform?"I do not generalize that all liberals are unpatriotic, however too many liberals think the only job of government is to redistribute wealth by taking property from the "rich" and giving it to them without any precondition. Patriotism is loving your countrymen and tolerating your government (paraphrasing Mark Twain).

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kansas778 6 years, 1 month ago

duplenty (Anonymous) says: If only you could read. I didn't call for facts regarding any "beliefs" - satirical wants to make a claim about "liberals" (all of them?), but provided not a single example.***********Oh, so it's come down to the difference between beliefs and claims? Apparantly, according to "The Rules, by Duplenty," claims must be supported by demonstrable facts, while beliefs can be supported by something less, perhaps rhetoric only. Stand by for forthcoming clarification...

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i_have_only_valid_opinions 6 years, 1 month ago

I may have to go eat at Teller's more often then...thanks, Ron!

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cato_the_elder 6 years, 1 month ago

Duplenty, George Washington would not recognize the bastardization of federalism, individual responsibility, and individual freedom that political liberalism has wrought in this country since the 1930's. Or are you too young to have realized that? Perhaps you will some day.

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Ceallach 6 years, 1 month ago

Anonymous usercato_the_elder (Anonymous) says: Will you be as zealous in your support of free expression should that make it to the table?___You betcha! I have been learning about the Fairness Doctrine (a misnomer if ever there was one). I believe (hope) that when folks are better educated as to the ins and outs of the doctrine (and the Constitution) they will do their best to keep this from becoming law.btw, I was only teasing the user stephenj because I know him. Although I am conservative, I know many liberals whom I like, and at least one that I love (bathed or not :).

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 6 years, 1 month ago

I think Lawrence is just as patriotic, maybe more so, as any place in the country-- it's just not defined in the usual terms-- most of us aren't unquestioning, uncritical drones.

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beatrice 6 years, 1 month ago

cato, equate what I say with racism if you like, although the two are not one and the same since everyone ages, but not all people will experience what it is like to be of another race. I have nothing against aging itself and don't mind doing so. However, the stress and strain of the job of President isn't like other jobs, and at age 72 by the time of taking office McCain's age concerns me and many others.And if you think the corporate world is required to hire a person of retirement age for any given job, then you need a reality check. There are many businesses that have mandatory retirement ages established, which meet federal standards. Our own Airforce has a mandatory retirement age of 65. So I guess in your view the Airforce is now the same as the KKK. In other words, try again, cato.

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cato_the_elder 6 years, 1 month ago

And, Beatrice, you must not forget that in the eyes of the law, there is not an ounce of difference between "racism" and "ageism" - making your admission identical to that of one stating that he or she is "concerned" about Senator Obama's race, and then admitting to being a racist.

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KSChick1 6 years, 1 month ago

sure, I have an american flag magnet on my car

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jonas 6 years, 1 month ago

"But on a serious note, I have heard anecdotal evidence that the situation between China and Tibet is more congenial than that of U.S. and the Native Americans."Yes, so have I, though it's possible that my sources could be considered a little past merely anecdotal. I won't ever claim the Chinese have handled the situation well, and they've broken both verbal promises and contractual agreements in their handling of Tibet. However, particularly in the rural region where there is less Han/Tibetan economic competition, relations between Tibetinese (?) and Chinese are fairly amiable. (My favorite is to let people know that the Dalai Lama is not calling for Free Tibet, though undoubtedly he would if he saw the potential for it to be realized. I guess "Provincial Autonomy For Tibet" is too long to put on a T-Shirt to show how Internationally Aware you are)

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George_Braziller 6 years, 1 month ago

What is the acutal working definition of "patriotism?" I'm a fifth generation Kansan and I'm proud of that but I'm ashamed of the way that the US has historially treated the rest of the world. Just another "wham, bam, thank 'ya ma'am" I got your resources and sucked you dry, I'm out of here, now you try to figure out how to deal with the problems. Been nice knowing 'ya. Don't call unless It's convenient for me. Oh, and by the way, would you like some typhoid infected blankets?

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Gabe Hoffman 6 years, 1 month ago

Thomas Jefferson"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then." I suppose he's not a patriot.

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Ceallach 6 years, 1 month ago

stephenj (Anonymous) says:...but then again I'm a dirty liberal._______The liberal part will just take time my dear, but the dirty part can be solved with a bath :)Hooray for BOTH sides, and that we live in a country where we are free to anonymously post comments, attacks, inappropriate remarks, and demean one another at will (unless of course the LJW staff intervenes).

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gogoplata 6 years, 1 month ago

The hot chick nailed it. Too many people have the Red Forman idea of patriotism. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjCdzn...

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jonas 6 years, 1 month ago

Satirical:1: No idea. Can "bored" be a reason? It is a comparable relationship to an independen movement in Hawaii, if Hawaii spilled over into violence. 2 . Haven't been there, no, but I do have first hand accounts from researchers that have been to many, many places within Tibet and spoken with enough people to be able to identify trends. /American researchers, not Chinese. In terms of bias, that's probably a little better.

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kansas778 6 years, 1 month ago

duplenty (Anonymous) says:If only you could read. I didn't call for facts regarding any "beliefs" - satirical wants to make a claim about "liberals" (all of them?), but provided not a single example.*****Is it a belief? Is it a claim? Does it matter? To Duplenty, yes, it does matter. And instead of replying to what I said about liberals' support of the policies I listed, this was his non-response. Duplenty would rather talk about the difference between beliefs and claims, and list the definitions of them (incorrectly) than to defend his position.

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cato_the_elder 6 years, 1 month ago

Beatrice, I strongly suspect that were your Democrat candidate Senator McCain's age you would find that to be a very graceful attribute and would compliment your candidate on his or her wisdom and sagacious charm - as I myself might very well do, regardless of the probable chasm between your candidate's views and mine. Again, leftists who scream bloody murder about prejudice of all kinds but enjoy making snide remarks about Senator McCain's age, especially when he is only 71, are profoundly hypocritical, which in your case has now been admitted. In the corporate world you would be required to undergo appropriate sensitivity training. For starters, I would suggest that you read Cicero's "De Senectute," which might open a few vistas for you.

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beatrice 6 years, 1 month ago

cato: "Beatrice, are you one of the table-pounding leftists like Ellen Goodman who ..."No, I'm not. I'm a table-pounding leftist like myself. The joke about McCain being a classmate of George Washington was just that, a joke. Deal with it, because there is no getting around the fact that McCain is old. Heck, he is so old he remembers when it was the "Grand Young Party." If the jokes mean I'm ageist, so be it. I'll accept the label. I suspect if Bill Self brought in a 46 year old freshman as point guard (Obama's age), people would squawk about that. It is all relative, and it has to do with the stress of the position in question. If someone McCain's age was being nominated for a justice position, I wouldn't be bothered. As President, however, 71 now, 72 at time of taking office, just concerns me. And I agree with BigAl, why didn't more of the lapel flag-pin wearing patriotic Americans of today own American flags prior to 9/11? (yes, I owned one and had it outside the house long before, and on, 9/11. I wonder if Ellen Goodman owned one?)

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jonas 6 years, 1 month ago

kansas778: A non-question would almost require a non-response for continuity's sake. Watching the flow of the conversation, though, its seems like this diversion was your responsibility, not his, as you were the first to make an issue of it. At that point, there was a difference between a belief and a claim, at least in terms of usage, a belief being, essentially, something held inside and a claim that then has an effect on other people. In that context, a belief doesn't have to be supported by anything. Hell, they usually aren't. A claim, ostensibly, should be required to have some support to be taken seriously, though of course they often aren't either. At any rate, the first claim by satirical was pretty dumb. Whatever JFK said, it was one line in one speech, one that sometimes gets maligned by people anyway. It's also assuming a great deal that JFK is somehow the Liberals' Hero. He's not remembered for his policies or his stances, just for being young and charismatic, I gather maybe something of a decent leader, and then for getting assassinated. You could further argue that all of those things that you mention as planks of the liberal platform Actually are a way of helping the country, as the country is made up of many people, many of them poor or middle class that could be seen to sometimes need a helping hand. The disconnect there is that you are undoubtedly referring to the recipients of some of those hand-outs as the Liberals, which is another questionable assumption. I would say most of those are the 50-60% of America that doesn't vote and doesn't actually care about politics any further than the check that they get and whether it keeps on coming. I could also note, I suppose, that writing off McCain and Bush as not conservatives is as duplicitous as writing off people who kill in Christ's name as not true Christians. They claim the title, and they have a lot of backing. The definition of conservativism (?) that you want to hold on to, even if it is a traditional meaning, is neither the only meaning nor even the authoritative one. At this point, what you would call a conservative is so rare in practice that you'd be better off splitting off and making a new name.

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kansas778 6 years, 1 month ago

I'd rather split them off and keep the name. But if I have to switch I'll call myself a classical liberal.

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George_Braziller 6 years ago

Not confused at all. Should never have been there to start with. That just an example of the US trying to get something for nothing and it blew up in its face.________EirishHawk (Anonymous) says: George,"Just another "wham, bam, thank 'ya ma'am" I got your resources and sucked you dry, I'm out of here,"Does that mean you think we should stay in Iraq? leave Iraq? you seem confused.

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