Previous   Next

Did you think the war in Iraq would last this long when it started in 2003?

Asked at Massachusetts Street on March 20, 2007

Browse the archives

Photo of Sarah Finkelstein-Waters

“Yes, unfortunately. It was a no-win situation when we started. I remember thinking at the time that it could only do more harm than good.”

Photo of Darrell Norris

“I didn’t have any thoughts one way or the other back then, but I doubt there were many people from the president on down who thought it would take quite this long.”

Photo of Gini Jones

“Frankly, with the administration we have, I did think it would be this long. They didn’t have a clue what they were getting into. I think they just wanted it so badly that they wouldn’t listen to anyone who saw this coming.”

Photo of Bailey Knowlton

“No. I thought we would be able to accomplish what we were trying to do there. Now I think our presence there is just making everything worse.”


Crossfire 11 years, 1 month ago

Yes and longer... Look at the past... Korea, Vietnam, The Cold War, East West Germany... Bush 43 and the other War Criminals have installed us in a Holy War that has been going on for over a thousand years. What kind of ego made him think he could do anything to change it at all. Hey Baby George, Daddy was smarter... This will never end. Maybe Lil' Jeb and the Florida Cigarette Boat Navy can do better.

cdc 11 years, 1 month ago

BEVY: Could you please explain to me how 9/11 has something to do with Iraq? Or give me some external websites where I can read about this?

I am always eager to learn something knew! Especially when that something has to do with 9/11 and the Iraq War, two issues of which I am not very informed.

Thanks, Bevy. I really appreciate you bringing in some civil discourse here!

paladin 11 years, 1 month ago

Yes, this long and much longer, possibly interminably. I thought there was no WMD capability in Irag, only piles of junk. I thought that the US would become stuck in a political and military quagmire and see no way out of it. I thought that the US would initiate and get caught in the middle of a civil war. I thought the cost would be immense, monetarily and, most importantly, in young lives of our children and in Iraqi civilians. I thought that the conflict would spread, eventually, to the entire Mideast. I thought that the invasion of Irag by the US was a huge tragic mistake of epic proportions and, possibly, with cataclysmic results and was foolish, immoral, and illegal. Wrong in every sense of the word. I was privy to no special insight or information. I was just paying attention. When I, at the time, voiced these concerns to others, I was laughed at, accused of being unpatriotic, a misfit and mal-content, crazy and a crackpot and a traitor, possibly a communist or a terrorist. People were angry if I mentioned what I thought and tried to keep me from talking about it. In fact, some people still do. Oh well.

Lee Eldridge 11 years, 1 month ago

It's interesting to me that people's hatred of GWB affects their ability to analyze the past. Or see our place in the world.

Certainly one of many missteps by the administration was how they portrayed the continued occupation. I remember cringing when they implied that we would be out of Iraq within a fairly short timeframe.

If you study history, such as our post-war occupation of Germany, that rebuilding a country takes years, not months. And that's under decent circumstances. It will be at least another ten years before Iraq is rebuilt, and that we can gain any true understanding of what was accomplished. Or not accomplished.

But to answer the original question, this has really become a second phase in the war in Iraq that it is clear that the administration underestimated. I'm certainly not surprised that we're still in Iraq, and that there is continued fighting. Just a bit surprised that it's not under more control than it is.

paladin 11 years, 1 month ago

Business is, and always was, what it is all about. Any other professed motivations and objectives are, and were, fraudulent. It was, and is now, about control of the global economy by way of control of the Mideast oil supply in competition with China.

jonas 11 years, 1 month ago

Oh no, I thought that we, the invincible, inpenetrable, god-like United States of F'n America, could easily come in, take out a dictator, be greeted as liberators, wave our magic policy wand, change an entire society's ways of thinking, fill the power vacuum, create a functional free market economy, create a functional civil-liberty democracy (or even representative republic) secure the borders, fix the oil fields, repair the infrastructure, put Saddam and his cabal to justice, and get out of there. I thought it would be, like, totally six to nine months altogether.

We're the United States of F'n America! With God, history, and liberty on our side, we can accomplish anything!

purplesage 11 years, 1 month ago

As I recall, the President warned us that the War on Terror may take years. Remember those historical references to the 60 years war,the 100 years war, etc.? I wondered how they could last so long? Now, I understand.

The last time America fought a war without one hand tied behind her back was WWII. Korea and Nam are certainly examples of micromanaged and pulled punches wars. Iraq demonstrates that the U.S. military can steamroll most any opponent on the battlefield. Quelling resistance and reestablishing a viable government takes longer. The question is whether American politicians, and the American public, have the tenacity to finish what has been started?

And, to those who forget so soon: this nation was attacked; our citizens were slain; Sadaam was a menace to his own people and to the whole region; and yes, it seems intelligence was not so intelligent on WMD issues. Many conveniently forget there was bipartisan belief of this information and bipartisan support for the action taken. Today, one would think that the President acted alone.

I want our military men and women safely home with their families within our own borders. (Who doesn't???) Their very existence underscores the fact that this world is a dangerous place and that we need a strong national defense to endure as a nation. Those who want to destroy this nation, take away the freedoms we enjoy, and desire to kill YOU (because you are an American) are out there.

beatrice 11 years, 1 month ago

And there you have it: "to those who forget so soon: this nation was attacked." Too bad we retaliated by attacking the wrong country. The blind leading the blind.

sinistersixguns 11 years, 1 month ago

I didn't think the war would take this long, but I'm not surprised if you consider the fact we are fighting it, not to win, but to "not lose", and trying to appease every side in the process. War is an awful thing, but if you are gonna do it, do it right. All this pussy-footing around we are doing (in response to political correctnes and the anti-war left) has killed many more soldiers than anything the insurgents are doing. In realilty, all you libs are the reason for the soliers deaths that you try so hard to blame on others. Typical. Apparently most of you libs thought the OTS question was " Can you rant a little about how you feel about the Bush Administration"?

jonas 11 years, 1 month ago

The "pussyfooting" as you so call it, is because we are, in this case, the aggressor nation. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but if you are not fighting to defend yourselves, which we are not, and if you are invading to actually help a populace, which we are (at least at face value) then you have to pull your punches and soften your blows to be different from the other aggressor nations who fight for less lofty goals, such as conquest and spoils. We have to maintain the perception that we are the good guys, and that involves not coming in with a hail of bullets and hellfire and leveling everything in sight.

Nah, you're probably right. I'm sure it's all just "the libs" that are screwing everything up. Now, let's pause while I laugh derisively in your general direction.

ms_canada 11 years, 1 month ago

Oh yes, yes, yes. Definitely a long time. Why? Because they forgot the first rule. Know thine enemy They had no idea what they were going up against. A people with a long history of inter fighting and hatred of one another. We just got caught in the middle of it all. Tribal warfare is the way of life in the middle east and has been for centuries. Muhammad united the tribes for a wee while but even Islam split and went back to their warring factions. They don't want our way of life. And never will, as a whole. Jonas said it all. The arrogant in this world can never see beyond the ends of their noses.

50YearResident 11 years, 1 month ago

Our President and Vice President assured the people of the United States that this would be a "Cake Walk" and would be over in less than 30 days with the cost of the war to be paid by Iraqi oil proceeds.

What is the famous quote by Bush "You can fool me but don't fool me twice" or something just as stupid as that. Well we have been fooled many, many times now.

It's time to make some changes.

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 11 years, 1 month ago

purplesage - We were not attacked by Iraq, we were attacked by a group of extreme Muslims, most of whom were exiled from Saudi Arabia called Al Queda. They were being sheltered by the Taliban in Afghanistan. We did right by going to Afghanistan, but instead of going after their leaders, we started a war with a man, who, yes was a major jerk, but he was no threat to the US, as was evident during Desert Storm. Like many leaders of Islamic countries, Al Queda approached Iraq for help, but Sadaam was more concerned about buidling his own fortunes to be bothered by a religious war. He wasn't that religious. If you don't believe me start reading the history of the war and the area instead of repeating the lies being fed to us by Bush's people. Try looking at the facts. If you are for the war, ok, but don't use untruths to back up your arguments.

RonBurgandy 11 years, 1 month ago

TOB - I usually use a plunger in those types of situations.

sgtwolverine 11 years, 1 month ago

Well, I never thought I'd have to wash my hands so many times before the war would be over.

Seriously, wars aren't drive-thru events. With few exceptions, they take a while. I was under no illusions.

sunflower_sue 11 years, 1 month ago

Being the eternal optimist...sadly, no, I didn't think it would last this long. Although I really should (and do) know better. Bailey (above) is the only one who gets pardoned today as she was in grade school when this whole thing started.

"It's interesting to me that people's hatred of GWB affects their ability to analyze the past. Or see our place in the world."

I harbor no hatred for GWB. Immense pity, maybe, but not hatred. To be honest, I'm not exactly sure what you meant by this statement. You just kind of threw it out there and left it hanging. Was it some slight towards "libs?" I really don't think that libs or cons (outside of Washington) have such differing views on this war. I think anyone would be hard pressed to walk down the street and find someone who would agree that the US has made all the right moves. The horse is dead. Time to stop beating it and time to start thinking about how we're going to clean up the mess. Me? Other than digging a really big hole in the sand and burying my head along with it...I have no idea.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 11 years, 1 month ago

I voted for Bush... yet I'd like to see him impeached. If we can impeach Clinton for what he did, then why not impeach Bush for this mess? This war has killed so many - Saddam is looking better every day.

Bladerunner 11 years, 1 month ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

gilcrouse 11 years, 1 month ago

This war ended within weeks after it started. We marched into the capitol, unseated the dictator, and shortly thereafter we killed his murderous sons and found him hiding in a hole. Along came the insurgent terrorists of whom we have sent many to "paradise". As long as they keep sending them to Baghdad we can kill them there not in the 1000 block of Mass. Four years later much progress has been made and Sadam has been hung by his crooked little neck until he is dead. Of course all of this has been done without one bit of help from the Democrat party or the communist left they lead. This is still the greatest country in the world and it is because of our men and women in uniform, not our leftist wanabe Karl Marxs on every campus in this country, along with the burnt out, dope smoking professors they listen to. Go to the middle east and light up, scum bags, see what happens to you there. Hate America all you want, you're free to do so, there are plenty of real Americans willing to keep your maggot infested bodies free to dance on the flag. The only enemy that can defeat America is the enemy within.

Staci Dark Simpson 11 years, 1 month ago

I think the war was initially a good idea. I just think we need a new strategy. Like the old days, bomb the crap out of them. If you talk to any soldiers most of them will tell you there is progress. New schools, new medical clinics, etc. All we hear about is the killing, which happens during a war. It is sad and I feel for every troop killed, but they knew this risk when they joined the military. I know I will take flak from the tofu-farting treehuggers but carpet bombing the place is the way to go. Or what about sending gang members over if they want to kill someone so bad?

canyon_wren 11 years, 1 month ago

Some good comments--especially from ms_canada and sunflower_sue. Fighting this war is like trying to dip water out of the ocean.

While I agree with the view that it is unrealistic to believe that we can "peacefully co-exist" with Muslims, who are determined to eliminate those of any other religion--we will never be able to establish "democracy" in Iraq and, though I am far from being in the "Peace" camp, I think it is criminal to continue to sacrifice our young men for nothing over there.

But like s_sue--I have no idea how we are going to be able to get out of there.

Roadkill_Rob 11 years, 1 month ago


Congratulations on your brainwashing! And you're right...I'm sure Al-Qaida totally had plans to blow up Mass. St. I had no idea what a strategic target Lawrence is. Thanks for "enlightening" us all!

You know what? I'm going to listen to everything our government tells us from now on just like you.

canyon_wren 11 years, 1 month ago

Quickly, before someone jumps all over me, I want to add "and our young women" to what I wrote above, lest I sound too sexist! These losses are unforgivable.

dizzy_from_your_spin 11 years, 1 month ago

I certainly thought the Iraq war would be over now.

Unfortunately, I miscalculated the resolve of the lefty, hate-Bush, America-is-bad, we-support-the-troops-but crowd and press.

Larry 11 years, 1 month ago

Nice couranna1. "gilcrouse F*** the war and you too you good bible totin conservaturd piece of crap." At what point did gilcrouse even mention religion, yet you just assumed that he was a "good bible totin conservaturd piece of crap." Maybe you could come forth with a comment with some substance. I don't agree with everything dorothyhr has said, but at least her comments are well thought out and respectful.

To dorothyhr:

"Like many leaders of Islamic countries, Al Queda approached Iraq for help," (can you direct me to proof that Sadaam turned them down?)

"instead of repeating the lies being fed to us by Bush's people." So your saying that Bush's people totally controlled nearly every intelligence agency in the world - most of which believed that Sadam had WMD's. Wow.. if true - I am really impressed by Bush and his ability to get most of the industrialized world to lie just so he could invade Iraq. You have to admit - that is impressive. THEN to think that he was so incredibly persuasive that he got the Clinton's and most democrats to agree. The man is TRULY amazing!

Grundoon Luna 11 years, 1 month ago

I think, Lee, that people's adoration, which often is downright worship, of Bush the younger affects their ability to analyze the past or see our place in the world.

Tom McCune 11 years, 1 month ago

I thought we would be bailing out right about now. Does "Vietnamization" ring a bell?

It seemed pretty obvious at the time that what was being attempted was generational culture change. I said at the time that to be successful we would need to leave a full-blown occupation force in place for 50 years. We have never had the resources or the will to do that. Four years is about the maximum we have ever been able to successfully sustain, so now is about the time our visionary leaders will turn things over to the Iraqis, just like we turned things over to the South Vietnamese when THAT situation didn't go according to plan. However, this time there are many factions involved so civil war will erupt instead of occupation by a single aggressor as was the case in South Viet Nam.

Roadkill_Rob 11 years, 1 month ago


You're right that other countries believed that Saddam had WMDs.

Before the war, I had no idea what to believe...I've learned to not totally believe ANY politician.

But, what a lot of people like myself did believe was that it was a war that we couldn't ultimately win. Anyone w/ common sense and a little knowledge of history would agree that you can't change the ideologies of middle eastern countries...especially by a Christian country like the one we have.

And, to be so naive as to not seeing Bush and Cheney's oil ulterior motives is mind-boggling to me.

Grundoon Luna 11 years, 1 month ago

The conservative bait and switch that is going on is the height of shirking responsibility!! The war's failures are not the responsibility of the Democrats. They did't run the whole show, Bush and Co, did. Bush and Co. ignored the warnings of the Clinton Administration and Richard Clark, Bush and Co. cherry picked the intelligence they wanted to justify their completely misguided actions, Bush and Co. did not deploy troops as recommended by military leaders, Bush and Co. did not provide sufficient equiment/armour, and list goes on and on.

WAKE UP, CONSERVATIVES!!! You have only yourselves to blame!!! Every time you blame this mess on the Democrats or liberals you might as well be wearing a T-shirt with big letters that says, "I am a completely guilible idiot and will believe anything that is spoon fed to me by a conservative administration."

Calling the left "looney" is the pot calling the kettle black to the extreme because you all are completely nuts! Evertime I hear the we're-failing-because-the-left-isn't-supporting-the-war BS I just want to puke. I mean, really, how stupid can people be?

deec 11 years, 1 month ago

Actually many people said this war was a mistake, another Vietnam. Generals said it. My uber-conservative ex said it. I said it. My teenage children said it. My elderly mother, who is church secretary of a small town Methodist church said it. Some pundits said it. A few Congress members said it. But no one was listening.

beatrice 11 years, 1 month ago

This far-right spin -- heard regularly on FoxNews and Rush Limbaugh -- of saying that anyone who questions the government or its actions is just a "Bush hating, American hating liberal" is really quite remarkable. When I see such furvent and absolute support for the government, I realize why facism is able to take root so easily. My only question is, why doesn't it happen more frequently?

Linda Aikins 11 years, 1 month ago

Didn't Thurber and Oates have that one song, Private Eyes?

Linda Aikins 11 years, 1 month ago

I'm really sorry that I tried that joke. Now I have those songs in my head.

How do I wash my brain?

Roadkill_Rob 11 years, 1 month ago

"How do I wash my brain?"

Watch Fox news.

Bone777 11 years, 1 month ago

Ask the same question in five years and my answer will be the same.


If you don't clearly define what victory is, how do you know if you have achieved it?

bevy 11 years, 1 month ago

I am sickened by the right vs. left hatred that is spewed on these pages - by BOTH sides - every day.

The simple fact is, most people are neither extreme right or extreme left. Most of us want some common sense, and to do what is right.

Common sense should have told us that this was a no-win situation. The examples in history are myriad, Vietnam being only the latest.

The Afghanis frustrated the British Empire when that government controlled 2/3 of the land on this planet. The Soviet Union at the height of its military might could not control or contain them. Though I am overjoyed that little girls can now attend school in that country, I am also amused that ANYONE thinks that we can end MILLENIA of tribal-based hatred. We have done what we can, though.

I am not a far-lefty or a far-righty, so please don't start calling me a conservaturd or a "tofu farting tree hugger." I am an American, a proud American. I think 90% of the people on this board need to look up the definition of civil discourse. Then get a dictionary and learn to express yourselves without resorting to profanity, 8th grade lockerroom taunts and potty talk.

Right or wrong, our troops are there now. We need to support them, and that means EQUIPPING THEM to survive.
There are good people in Iraq who are trying to make something out of their country. They are the majority in Iraq, just as good, average hardworking people are the majority here. They do not deserve to be carpet bombed. I think our intentions were good, but our strategy was poor. I don't think we can rightly pull out all at once and leave them to themselves, but we need a plan to get out as soon as we can.

It is clear that there were errors on BOTH sides in this one. Have you all forgotten the evidence that the Clinton administration new 9-11 might happen, but did nothing? Get your head out of what happened in the past, and start looking for a solution. If all you want to do is fingerpoint and complain about the past, then step aside and let the people in who want to DO something.

Heck, I don't have the answer to this one. I'm not smart enough. But I am smart enough to know that if people would put as much energy and commitment into selecting their congresspeople and representatives as they do spewing hatred and ridicule on this board, we might get a government that actually worked. That would be cool.

canyon_wren 11 years, 1 month ago

Thank you, bevy, for such a common sense perspective! I, for one, really appreciate what you wrote!

bevy 11 years, 1 month ago

Thanks canyon_wren. There really are more of us...

paladin 11 years, 1 month ago

bevy, bravo! What you say is very admirable, and true. And very smart, indeed.

bevy 11 years, 1 month ago

Never said Bush wasn't responsible. All I said was, he's not the ONLY one responsible. The prior administration is culpable as well.

beatrice 11 years, 1 month ago

RI: now you want me to read a book to know that facism is bad? I think I'm there already. As Bill Murray said, "1984 isn't that far away."

By the way, hasn't anyone mention the conviction of "Scooter" Libby? There is the evidence that the Bush administration tried to silence any desenting voices against their claims of WMDs. But of course, it is all the fault of Clinton and the liberals.

I'm just surprised that Bush apparently appointed Clinton to be the head of the Walter Reed Hospital. ugh

I just thank god that the pro-war McCain is likely too old to be electable, otherwise the war would continue to escalate for at least another four years.

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 11 years, 1 month ago

9/11 and the Iraq war have nothing to do with each other!!! 9/11 was no one's fault but Al Queda. Granted they might have stopped it if the CIA and FBI had more interpretors, but Americans don't believe in learning other languages. The world is suppose to learn English to accomodate us. We went to war in Iraq, because of intelligence that Bush manipulated, ignoring evidence that it was wrong (Valerie Plame's husband tried to tell them otherwise). Not that many countries bought into it. That's why the UN and France didn't jump on the bandwagon. Look at the support we received in Afghanistan, because there was real evidence that Al Queda was sheltered there, in fact the Taliban bragged about it. Bush was planning on a war with Iraq before 9/11 happened. In "The Price of Loyalty", Bush's 1st secretary of the Treasury said in one of the first meetings they had all anyone could talk about was going to war with Iraq and what would be the logistics. You should read the book, it's very enlightening. And it's written by a conservative.

jonas 11 years, 1 month ago

Wow, an OTS Larry sighting?! I suppose with so much silliness coming out, it was only a matter of time. Larry is quite attracted to silly.

christie 11 years, 1 month ago

God PUKED and there was TEXAS, and out of TEXAS came a BUSH, and out of the BUSH came LIES, and out of the LIES came DEATH.

bevy 11 years, 1 month ago

To the poster above, if you had read my original post carefully, you would have seen that I WAS referring to the 9-11 attacks when I mentioned Clinton, not the war in Iraq.

My major point is -- spending all this time fingerpointing and blamestorming about things in the past is not helping us move FORWARD with a solution. (Not to say that we shouldn't take action if we can prove that they acted with malice aforethought)

As an aside, it isn't W that scares me. It's his second in command. That guy is a piece of work.

drewdun 11 years, 1 month ago

Man, you can tell just how unhinged the right truly is by reading their comments on this website everyday. Just truly sick, sick people - definitely in need of professional help. Its actually a good thing, imo, because normal people who read this site see the true face of the right, and lemme tell ya, it ain't pretty [or intelligent:)].

And what I find funny is all of the 'resolve' shown by the wingnuts on here. 75 saying this may take 100 years - do you really believe we should have troops in Iraq for 100 years? If you do, you are in serious denial and suffering from severe delusions. Beyond the fact that there is NO WAY our country could afford that, the people of this nation WOULD NEVER SUPPORT EVEN A TENTH of that. And since this is a democracy, and the people are ostensibly in control of the govt, the troops will be home from Iraq within a few years. And then the right-wingers will blame the disastrous outcome on the liberals, the American people, anybody EXCEPT THE PEOPLE WHO STARTED THE DAMN WAR AND BUNGLED IT SO BADLY.

That's the thing about wingnuts and the war: they want to just totally ignore the war's beginning and its prosecution up to this point. They just want us [>60% of us, at least] to "shut our 'America-hating' mouths" and blindly follow and believe everything Bush, the GOP, and their propaganda outlets tell us, like they do. Unfortunately for them, the vast majority of people in this country care more about the well-being of our soldiers and our nation than they do about the Republican Party, whose health is of paramount importance to the wingnuts. That's really the only political calculus involved here for the wingnuts: the Iraq War has seriously damaged the GOP, and since this war is so heavily tied to the wingers, they can't admit that ANYTHING has gone wrong, or if they do, they blame it on the liberals, the Democrats, the communists, basically anybody but who really deserves the blame: Bush and his sycophants in the GOP. The hardcore 30% that still supports Bush (and is so feebly represented here, both in numbers and writing skill) should seriously be examined by professionals to see what type of person places his political allegiances above EVEN REALITY. Once again, sick, sick, deranged, and dangerous people. Truly the bottom of the barrell of American society. The gum on the bottom of my shoe. The sludge lining sewer walls. In other words, truly pathetic and disgusting individuals, worthy of nothing but scorn and contempt.

drewdun 11 years, 1 month ago

And gilcrouse: you are the epitome of a fascist. You are obviously a terrible human being.

spacystaci8 supports carpetbombing Iraq - wait, I thought we were there to 'liberate' the Iraqis, and that we were trying to rebuild their country, not kill them and destroy their country?

Once again, more incoherence from the right. But that's okay, it happens all the time. Probably because a prerequisite of being a right-winger is an IQ hovering at about 85:>


just_throw_bozo_from_this_bus 11 years, 1 month ago

I think GW is going to go down in history as one of the greatest presidents this country has ever had. I, for one, am behind him 100%. If he wants to take 100 years to fight this war, then so be it. I'm in it for the long haul. If he thinks he needs to curtail some of my civil liberties on the way, well, I wasn't really using them anyway. If he wants to fire some bleeding heart U.S. attorneys, then they probably deserved it. If it takes a military coup against the far-lefties, he's got my firepower. Now let's go get em GW!!!

BOE 11 years, 1 month ago

Always thought it would be much longer.

We never had the tech and resources necessary, nor are there enough tankers available, to remove all of our oil out from under their sand in such a short time.

It'll take decades, unless we can just float it all here in massive oil slicks and guide it into the Gulf of Mexico.

"Long, hard, slog.", that inadvertent bit of truth that escaped Rumsfailed's lips, pretty much sums it up.

just_throw_bozo_from_this_bus 11 years, 1 month ago

I wonder what the feasibility is of just setting off a nuke underground in that oil field. If it didn't touch off the Saudi's oil, that might solve all our problems.

Besides, if we tried to tote an oil slick into the gulf of Mexico, we might lose track of it.

yellowhouse 11 years, 1 month ago

= = = My poo slinger is unstuck now, and I am in the monkey house!

I never thought that in 2007 Yellow House Store would still be dealing with the persecution of the Lawrence Government when it started in 1992!

NOW war in IRAQ that won't quit! You would think Bush was from Lawrence!

beatrice 11 years, 1 month ago

RI, but you must certainly appreciate that I quoted Bill Murray during such a "serious" discussion as this.

Commenting has been disabled for this item.