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Do you consider abortion to be an important political issue?

Asked at Massachusetts Street on June 18, 2007

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Photo of Kristin Wantland

“I think it’s an important issue, but at the end of the day I think it’s a personal decision and not one that legislation should decide.”

Photo of Mike Cawthon

“Yes. I take it into account when I choose who I’m going to vote for. Generally I vote for pro-choice candidates because I lean toward the right to choose.”

Photo of Thomas Ballard

“No. I don’t see why it should have anything to do with politics. I believe it’s an important decision for an individual, but not for politicians or the welfare of the country.”

Photo of Allie Milhon

“I think it’s hard for politicians to get into that issue because it’s so divisive. It’s such a personal thing that they’ll never be able to please everyone. There are so many more important issues to focus on.”

Comments

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 6 months ago

Abortion is a probably a more important political issue, in my view of the world, because it goes to the fundamental root of our society. If we do not value human life, we will not value life as a whole. right_thinker...I agree, there is a huge gap in the far-left loon's philosophy.

KS 7 years, 6 months ago

I find it very important and I vote accordingly. I don't really like single issue voters, but on this subject, I am one of them. I am pro-life. It is beyond me how someone could not be. Logic in America is gone. See the 6:24 AM post.

Lulu 7 years, 6 months ago

I think it's an important issue and I think it's a personal decision if I kill my baby and not one to be legislated. I lean toward the right to choose if I should kill my baby or let it live. I can see sometimes it wouldn't be acceptable for a child to live, plus at a certain gestational stage it looks like a shrimp, so it's okay, because it is sub-human. If it were defective it would be too much for it to have a happy life, and if I want a girl but it's a boy it should be my right to decide its fate and nobody elses. It's also a good thing if I, my boyfriend, or my ex-husband forgets protection.

Richard Heckler 7 years, 6 months ago

No No No!

Too many politicians prove over and over they are not the moral giants of our time so why should they be making decisions regarding regarding sexual matters. Sex Education could help reduce the need for abortion and as always politicians get in the way. BUT the matter certainly increases the special interest campaign dollar pie. I believe it is time to tax church profits.

I've never a Pro-Choice person who was necessarily pro abortion.

Lulu is welcome to an opinion KS. Frankly I do not know anyone on the planet that is not pro-life with the exception of the Bush administration and the oil industry.

So many try to paint Planned Parenthood as some muderous organization when in fact they are all about education and prevention. Abstention is at the top of their lists of protective methods. http://www.plannedparenthood.org/birth-control-pregnancy/birth-control.htm

jonas 7 years, 6 months ago

Of course it's an important political issue. That's simple reality. Whether it should be would perhaps have been a more intriguing question.

KS: There are many perfectly logical arguments for being pro-choice. The fact that you undoubtedly disagree with most of them is simply your opinion. It doesn't make them any less logical.

And I'm out. My internet here costs 3 yuan a minute, and I'm not going to waste it having a pointless flame war. See you all tomorrow.

preebo 7 years, 6 months ago

In a manner of Speaking, NO! Absolutely not.

nlf78 7 years, 6 months ago

It's a PERSONAL choice and a PERSONAL right. I don't believe in it, I'm pro live, but that's just ME. I don't believe I have any right to tell someone else what they can and cannot did to themselves. I really wish politics would stay out of it.

acg 7 years, 6 months ago

Absolutely. Before I vote, I want to know whether or not the candidate is going to be pushing his/her right wing christian nonsense down my throat. If they seem normal, then I'll consider voting for them. If they thump that bible too much, no vote from me!!

trinity 7 years, 6 months ago

couldn't have said it better myself, acg. ditto&thanks!

funkdog1 7 years, 6 months ago

Right thinker: Wow. Thanks for providing that link. Here's a statistic from your link which illustrates very plainly why abortion should be legal in all countries:

"Worldwide, the lifetime average is about 1 abortion per woman."

There are legions of good women who have had to make this very difficult decision. Certainly several women you know. Women whom you would never suspect of having had an abortion. It's a women's issue. Period.

Larry 7 years, 6 months ago

"I believe if a fetus can't "live" on its own without artificial support (i.e., other than a mother's milk and mother's care), then how can it be aLIVE? "

Serious question with no sarcasm inserted. Can a 1 month old, six month old or even one year old live on his/her own? If not, is he/her not alive? Your i.e point is irrelevant because an embryo becomes a fetus at approximately eight weeks and within the first trimester is being feed via the mother's blood stream by the placenta via the umbilical cord. Without this, the fetus will not stay ALIVE, hence, we're sorry but your fetus has died in the womb due to difficulties associated with........... (what a nice thing to have to say to a mother).

Here's a thought. If abortion is okay, then why don't we have woman marching down the streets with signs saying, "I had an abortion and it's my right to have as many as I want?" Why do woman hide the fact that they've had an abortion? Sure... there are a few that aren't embarrassed or that don't believe it is truly wrong, but most struggle emotionally for years with their choice to have an abortion. I wonder what the statistics would say if only woman who have had an abortion were included.

Grundoon Luna 7 years, 6 months ago

Woohoo! The right brings the name calling!!

Bush supprters talking about how THEY value human life? Pro-war, pro-execution duplicitous hypocrites think thier value for human life is greater because they value a life that would not be capable of surviving much less taking a breath if it exited its host during the first several months of gestation. That's rich!! In the next breath they'll start taling about closure for victims families to support executions, not even thinking about all the people that have been executed for a crime they didn't commit with a justice-ain't-perfect attitude, or talk about how innocent women and children killed during war time are just collateral damage. Or how a dead soldier with a family that needed him/her knew that was in store when he/she signed up for it so oh, well. That's a pretty jacked up value system.

Realiy Check, you are so right on!!

I can't believe that some people still think Lulu is real!! ROFLMAO

drewdun 7 years, 6 months ago

It would seem that "pro-life" people generally care about a fetus until about one second after its born. Then its "well, you're on your own, kid."

Grundoon Luna 7 years, 6 months ago

Oh, and it's an important political issue for me because it tells that whether or not the politico is ao hung up on getting Roe v. Wade overturned that many, many very important issues are getting completely ignored.

sgtwolverine 7 years, 6 months ago

I consider the availability of Klondike bars to be an important political issue.

Grundoon Luna 7 years, 6 months ago

Whoops! I forgot, Scene, but thanks for catching that for me. Also, they seem or either forget or are oblivious to the fact that the majority or folks getting welfare are white.

Roadkill_Rob 7 years, 6 months ago

Pro-lifers care about human life, except for Iraqi civilians.

gogoplata 7 years, 6 months ago

If life begins at conception it doesn't matter how fervently you believe it doesn't. The 911 hijackers believed in what they did. Abortion is murder. It really is that simple.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

Prediction for today: lots of heat, little light. Scattered poo-flinging throughout the day.

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 6 months ago

Reality Check... 1. I am not surprised by your narrow sources of information to help determine your philosophy. That is generally the case and unfortunately typical of most people of your ideology.

  1. You assume I support the death penalty. What kind of integrity would I have if I supported the death penalty?

  2. I have offered to adopt a "dark skinned baby" (your words) as learning about a baby that was going to be aborted. How about you?

  3. Since you such zeal for your own philosophy...as I do mine, I would challenge you to look at both sides (yes, even mine) of issues BEFORE you make assumptions based on gallop polls, supreme court decisions,mainstream media and scientific reports. Public opinion is fickle and science is always learning new things.

  4. This is one of the major issues in our country to resolve.

Respectfully

Roadkill_Rob 7 years, 6 months ago

What I want to know is how many pro-lifers have signed up to adopt?

preebo 7 years, 6 months ago

"Again, it's another thing the Dems latched onto to stay in the game."

I take issue with this statement. I am a Democrat and am also against Abortion.

However, the leading Republican Presidential Candidate is another story.

Hmmm. Interesting.

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 6 months ago

P.S. RealityCheck. I also live with a woman, my wife, who was pressured by her selfish boyfriend to abort her baby. She suffers the consequence of her action still. Have you ever been responsible for killing your own child? You might understand that guilt, shame and torture had you ever lived it.

All...On paper something always looks good. It's in living it, that we find the truth.

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 6 months ago

Adoption...In my experience, adoption is NOT talked about or even considered. There is generally someone who has greater influence over the pregnant woman and therefore creates a shield so that no one can get to them to weigh the adoption issue. I am not an abortion counselor, just someone who has had the abortion encounter too many times in the past 25 years.

Lulu 7 years, 6 months ago

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, what more could someone ask for? Thank god for Choice! Due to financial difficulties, I had a selective reduction of twins a few years ago. In time, I'm sure Sunshine will understand that she could've had a sister :)

I am womyn hear me roar, and yes, I am a womyn.

Gareth Skarka 7 years, 6 months ago

The anti-abortion Christians in this country are too gullible to realize that they've been had.

Your "Compassionate Conservative" Evangelical Republicans had FULL CONTROL of the Congress and the White House for years, and could have made abortion illegal. And yet, they didn't. Want to know why?

....So that they can continue to use it as an issue to get you dumb sheep to the polls to keep voting for them because they're "pro-life." There is no "pro-life" voting bloc if the topic is off the table, so they kept it on the table. And you keep falling for it.

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 6 months ago

Scenebuster...You bring up a very good question! Thanks for asking it. Men have a huge responsibility in the decision to abort. My experience has been that boyfriends, one-night stand boyfriends and mothers are the biggest proponents and influencers to have an abortion.

Have you ever been in this situation? Yes, she made a choice and WE are living with it.

Grundoon Luna 7 years, 6 months ago

Woohoo! The right brings out the hysterics!!

It is extremely rare, and illegal in the vast majority of states, that an abortion be performed after 16 weeks gestation, but those late term abortions are all the pro-lifers want to talk about anymore. We happen to live in a state that allows the late term procedure. While I am pro-choice I do find the late term procedure to be pretty grizzly. I hope that an alternative procedure can be found for when the mother's life is at stake or if the fetus is so deformed it will have no quality of life and present a horrendous financial burden on the family. Otherwise abortion on demand should be available to the point where a fetus can survive outside the mother, even if it take heroic measures for it to survive. And that point is about 16 weeks.

I hear women talk about their abortion experiences all the time. The difference between why so many of you pro-lifers don't here anyone talk about anything other than how paniful and lasting an experience it was is because: 1. It's none of your damn buniess; 2. they don't want a pro-life zealot to harrass them or bomb their house. Most women are able to reconcile what they had to do at what may have been a troubling time in their life. In general, people hang out with those that think like them and if those women you know that are so tortured by their abortion experience didn't have to hear about what awful people they are for having the abortion they might no feel so damn bad.

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 6 months ago

I would be interested in knowing what it would take for the "left wingers" to change from a pro-choice stance to a "right winger" pro-life stance? It seems you know something we don't?

beatrice 7 years, 6 months ago

Only if all other medical procedures are political issues. "Mr. Senator, what is your stand on microscopic knee surgery? The people need to know."

What is the plural of womyn? Thanks, Lulu, for being so far to the left that I end up looking like a centrist.

Have fun today folks. Please remember, lots of name calling, references to Nazi Germany, bigotry and religious zealotry are necessary to make this a true discussion on the "a" word. I think I'll avoid it, since me delicate feelings can't take the heat.

Grundoon Luna 7 years, 6 months ago

Lulu's inventor obviously does't know that womyn are lesbians and as such would have no need for a boyfriend. I seriously doubt that a lesbian is going to go to the trouble to become pregnant only to have an abortion.

acg 7 years, 6 months ago

Too true Gareth. The right has been in control several times in the past decade and where are all these anti-abortion laws? When was Roe V Wade overturned? It wasn't! Because pro-life or not, the right wing politicians aren't going to touch this one with a ten foot pole, regardless of the crap they spout during the election season. They say it and say it and say it and do nothing to remedy this great national "epidemic" of abortion, but the sheeple keep voting for them, don't they?

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 6 months ago

scenebooster...are you saying that we make all decisions by ourselves, without any influence whatsoever?

gogoplata 7 years, 6 months ago

Gareth may have a point. I voted for W because he was anti abortion. Not much has changed with abortion while we picked a fight with Iraq and have killed a bunch of their people.
We should be just as upset by the murders our leaders have commited on the people of Iraq. Pre emptive war = murder.
That still doesn't let you pro abortion people off the hook. You are pro murder. Just like the neocons who want to go around bombing other countries. You are as big a hypocrite as they are. No person should be able to legally harm another person without thier consent.

rhd99 7 years, 6 months ago

Here we go again, the Kline camp is just as looney as ever before. "When was Roe V Wade overturned? It wasn't!" There are more important issues than just abortion. Live with that, & get a life.

acg 7 years, 6 months ago

That was my quote rhd99 and I resent that remark. I think Phil Kline is a boil on the ass of humanity and I wouldn't have voted for him for all the tea in China. If you'll reread my post, you'll see that was my point exactly! The right is screaming about abortion and no one is paying attention to what's going on. Kind of like when someone only partially reads a post and remarks on it incorrectly.

sunflower_sue 7 years, 6 months ago

I have some freak dressed up as "the Karate Kid" show up at my door yesterday pimping soiled goods and today I'm supposed to be thinking political issues? I think not.
Sgt, throw me a Klondike bar, will ya?

whatintheworld 7 years, 6 months ago

reality-checK

YOU ARE ONE SAD INDIVIDUAL. SHUT UP AND GO HUG YOUR MOM. THE ONE WHO THOUGHT YOU WERE SOMETHING MORE THAN JUST A FETUS. BEING PREGNANT IS NOT LIKE SHOPPING IN WALMART....FIND SOMETHING ON THE SHELF, PUT IT IN YOUR CART AND THEN HALF WAY THROUGH THE STORE YOU DECIDE YOU DON'T WANT IT SO YOU PUT IT BACK. IT IS A MIRACLE!!! WHETHER OF SCIENCE, RELIGION OR WHATNOT. NATURE, GOD OR WHAT EVER YOU BELIEVE HAS A SYSTEM OF DECIDING WHAT IS VIABLE FOR LIFE. EVER HEARD OF A MISCARRAIGE? EVER KNOWN SOMEONE WHO HAD ONE? TRY TELLING THEM THAT THEY WEREN'T GOING TO HAVE A BABY? PEOPLE HAVE GOT TO AT LEAST HAVE RESPECT FOR LIFE...WHO CARES ABOUT THE POLITICIANS...

sgtwolverine 7 years, 6 months ago

Wax on, wax off, sue. Enjoy the Klondike.

imastinker 7 years, 6 months ago

I get a kick out of the people who say that man should have no say in the matter. Men are probably the reason that abortion is still here. Men use this as a tool to use women. This is not liberation of women, it's quite the opposite.

If women have "choices," then men are able to coerce them and pressure them into sex where the woman isn't as worried about pregnancy. Further, there's no child support if there's no baby. Abortion liberates nobody except men, and especially not the baby.

gogoplata 7 years, 6 months ago

" I voted for W because he was anti abortion. "

Another reason why being a single issue voter makes you an idiot.

Can you have a conversation on here without calling names? My reasoning was that if abortion was made illegal my vote would have contributed to putting a man in the White House to help make that happen. Now I fear that the GOP just uses this issue to get votes from people like me. I'd like to be able to vote for Ron Paul this next time.

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 6 months ago

Reality_Check...your relativism scares me. Your drama scares me further.

gogoplata 7 years, 6 months ago

If people honestly don't know exactly when life begins it would seem like a good idea to me to err on the side of caution. If there is even a chance that life begins at conception then why would you want to take the chance of commiting murder? Would you admit that "if" life begins at conception that abortion is murder?

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 6 months ago

gogo...I'll sit with you. Reality_Check scares me. He's angry, violent and thinks the law is the final say. I'll shake the dust of my sandals now.

JoRight 7 years, 6 months ago

About as important as hair color. . .and I only vote for blondes.

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 6 months ago

Reality...who are these best philosophers, scientist and politicians you speak of? I'd like to hear what they have to say?

gogoplata 7 years, 6 months ago

See how that works?

No.

Just because I voted for Bush doesn't mean that I am pro war. I want the war ended. The only killing I would condone is self defense and possibly capital punishment. This war is not one of self defense. As far as capital punishment goes it does seem fair to execute murderers, but at the same time there is the possibility of wrongful conviction. So I agree with it in theory but maybe not in practice.

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 6 months ago

Reality... 1. You are the only one bringing God into this. Your assumptions are making you look really stupid. 2. Your shallow arguments and lack of support are not helping make your case. Looks like you are content to go with the "majority". Please, don't think for yourself. 3. We will NOT change our minds.

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 6 months ago

Reality... All makes sense to me now (the anger, confusion and face). There is obviously a conflict really deep inside you that is "wrestling with the Christians". Perhaps there is a conscious in there.

gogoplata 7 years, 6 months ago

We do charge murderers with 2 murders when they kill a pregnant woman and the baby also dies. It's not a stretch to see abortion as murder.

gogoplata 7 years, 6 months ago

Oh, and yes, whoever asked: I did get my girlfriend pregnant accidentally (due to birth control failure) when I was 26 and she was 21, and she decided to go the abortion route because she didn't want to get married to me and neither of us felt ready, financially or emotionally, for children.

That must be tough to live with.

Crispian Paul 7 years, 6 months ago

If you believe a blastocyst is a baby once it is conceived, then you feel the way you do...that these choices are "baby killing". However, not everyone believes that. I certainly don't believe a blastocyst is a "baby". I am not pro-abortion, but I believe it is a right to choose issue. I don't believe a cluster of cells is a baby. I also think it is fallacious to assume that every person whose ever had an abortion is an irresponsible person who doesn't use protection or uses abortion as a means of contraception. In fact, what person would choose an expensive surgery over more subtle and effective means of birth control, such as the pill?

I know three women who have had abortions. One was raped by her boyfriend. One was married and lost her job right when she found out she was pregnant and she and her husband felt they could not support a child. One had a boyfriend, the condom failed, she was in school and made a choice. Not one of these women would have ideally opted for an abortion.

If you don't agree with abortion, don't have one. If you don't agree with the gay "life style", don't be gay (or rather, pretend you aren't gay) If you don't agree with atheism, don't be an atheist.
Let's talk about how logic is gone.....How is it logical to tell one person what to do based on a generally Judeo-Christian ethic that may not be shared with you?

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 6 months ago

Reality...While none of the Koran, Torah or Bible will tell you that life begins at conception in actual, physical word, you can just look at natural law to get your answer. While you may reject what all of these religions say, you owe it to yourself to at least consider what the other side is saying so you can make sure you are making an informed decision based on all the facts. If you can prove that life does not begin at conception after you look at the other side, I'll buy you a cup of coffee.

Some sources: http://www.nrlc.org/

Crispian Paul 7 years, 6 months ago

Compassionate Conservatism is nothing more than Friendly Fascism....

Crispian Paul 7 years, 6 months ago

Azure_Attitude (Anonymous) says:

Lulu's inventor obviously does't know that womyn are lesbians and as such would have no need for a boyfriend. I seriously doubt that a lesbian is going to go to the trouble to become pregnant only to have an abortion.

What?!?! Womyn are lesbians? Womyn is a political feminist word. Therefore, your logic dictates that feminists who use this spelling are lesbians?

Crispian Paul 7 years, 6 months ago

spywell (Anonymous) says:

Phil Kline, made a mistake. He tried to investigate rapes of 13 year old girls and the left made a poster boy out of him for their own interest. Hope the next victim isn't your daughter.

That's an incredible over-simplification without facts. Not all of the records he subpoena'd were underage girls. Not all the records subpoena'd were of girls whose consensual partners were older than them. Lots of the underage girls' records subpoena'd were girls who had consensual sex with age mates.

Crispian Paul 7 years, 6 months ago

See, to me, th actual living people in the world are more of a political issue. For example, see this article http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2007/jun...

Re: those who are employed and don't have or don't qualify or can't get insurance....To me, that's the real sadness and sickness of this social debate. What about those who are living?

Crispian Paul 7 years, 6 months ago

absolutelyridiculous (Anonymous) says:

Reality:While none of the Koran, Torah or Bible will tell you that life begins at conception in actual, physical word, you can just look at natural law to get your answer. While you may reject what all of these religions say, you owe it to yourself to at least consider what the other side is saying so you can make sure you are making an informed decision based on all the facts. If you can prove that life does not begin at conception after you look at the other side, I'll buy you a cup of coffee.

Some sources: http://www.nrlc.org/

Ridicuous, let's flip the script here. If you can prove life DOES begin at conception, I'll buy you an orphan child.

Crispian Paul 7 years, 6 months ago

PS, I HIGHLY doubt the NRLC (National Right to Life Coalition) is an unbiased and fair source....Says so right in the name.

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 6 months ago

and I take the orphan child. Where are your unbiased sources that say life doesn't begin at conception? Come on. Show your cards!

Roadkill_Rob 7 years, 6 months ago

Right_Thinker wrote:

"What I really see is more Bush Derangement Syndrome in overdrive going to the "Bush is a murdererwhatya rightwingers think about that?" lame argument. Is that all you've got left in your well educated, cutting-edge liberal swarm?"

Uhm, I think Bush was mentioned a couple of times but, from what I've read, this thread has touched a lot more than that. Is that all you can use to debate us liberals? It seems like whenver you have nothing to contribute, you go back to the "lefty-looney-liberals hate Bush" argument.

Thanks again, Right_Thinker, for not contributing anything to the debate...at least you're not feeling sorry for yourself like you usually do.

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 6 months ago

Reality......let's go vote! See what the real majority thinks. I think you are uninformed, bigoted and ignorant of any truth whatsoever.

I'm outta here!

whatintheworld 7 years, 6 months ago

Reality.....You are soooooooo right .You and all the people you mentioned probably weren't ready to be parents. But someone out their could have been a good parent to your child. SELFISHNESS IS WHY MOST PEOPLE GET ABORTIONS.....NO ONE WANTS TO BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS. Morals.....aren't always defined by what the laws of this land are.

Just like you said, it is not spelled out in the Bible when Life begins....but it also doesn't say a baby isn't a life until it can survive outside of the Mother. I guess God was trusting us to use our head and our heart on this one. Somehow "I" can't imagine Our Loving God thinking that abortion is okay. If conception wasn't life than what is the point in it. Why didn't God just deliver the little angels to our front door?

I personally am not concerned about the "Majority" when there is only One that it will truly matter to. You are right it is your right to an opinion. However disturbing it may be to me and others.

gogoplata 7 years, 6 months ago

I answer, "We should err on the side of the least intrusion on the individual by the government:as our Founding Fathers intended."

I agree whole heartedly.

If there is a question as to when life begins. If there is the possibility that life does begin at conception. That fetus may then be an individual. There is no greater intrusion on an individuals rights than to kill it. You then are betting a lot on your belief that life does not begin at conception. If you are wrong, innocent lives are being taken. If I am wrong a womans rights are being taken away. Both serious intrusions on individual liberty but it should be obvious which is more serious.

gogoplata 7 years, 6 months ago

I didn't hear anyone respond to this.

We do charge murderers with 2 murders when they kill a pregnant woman and the baby also dies. It's not a stretch to see abortion as murder.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 6 months ago

"Witness Right_Stinker and his routine name calling here:" The irony meter just pegged its needle. Where's Nick Danger been all day?

mommy3 7 years, 6 months ago

Let it go, the world is a better place because right thinker, and crispian (and all the others) didn't have kids. God forbid their children go to their first dance, or drive their first car, or join my kids for their first day of kindergarden...oh, they can't they were killed by their parents!! The roads are safer, the schools are safer...let it go. Well, luckily my three children are alive and well, and learning from their christian parents. If anything we should feel sorry for them, for not having the joy and peace of knowing that their children are being raised by a loving family. Well, I take that back they have seem to have peace knowing their child was thrown in the dumpster in the back of the clinic getting munched on by the local pest. I don't push my veiws, but you all are pushing yours. I live everyday seeing my children's beautiful faces, what do you see?

jonas 7 years, 6 months ago

"gogoplata (Anonymous) says:

I didn't hear anyone respond to this.

We do charge murderers with 2 murders when they kill a pregnant woman and the baby also dies. It's not a stretch to see abortion as murder."

It could quite likely be a strategic move on the part of the pro-life politicians and interest groups to allow for a better precedent for legalizing abortion, one that raises the ire of most people due to the unwillingness of the mother to lose her own life, and the life of her child. It's a pretty recent development, is it not? I think that the general population is likely more sympathetic on the whole to such a case, which the lawmakers are attempting to use in their favor, due to its higher likelihood of being passed, and those opposed to it must say that, by proxy, they have little sympathy for the issue at hand, when they are opposing it for its natural lead into giving the fetus personhood status, precisely for this reason.

So, to be short, it's crap politics at work again.

karensisson 7 years, 6 months ago

It's an important political issue because certain groups have decided they will tolerate any crimes against humanity if they think there is a chance to return America to the days when the law, not the woman, made this choice. Look at the terror that has resulted, as this administration, given a blank check by the anti-choice people, has fooled them and used them and had its way with America - without giving the anti-choice people even so much as a crumb.

Democrats need to address this issue head-on. They need to talk about birth control, sex education, holding men accountable for emotional and physical support, and providing mothers and their babes with health care, job training and jobs - and food stamps and TEMPORARY support when they need it. I truly believe most abortions are decided upon with the economic hardship in mind. The choice facing a woman with an unwanted pregnancy in America is much, much different than in Europe where everyone has health care.

Frederic Gutknecht IV 7 years, 6 months ago

gogoplata says: "If people honestly don't know exactly when life begins it would seem like a good idea to me to err on the side of caution." This seems like an odd, though understandable, point of view. It seems likely that religious beliefs would encourage the promotion of such an righteously and overly cautious position.

In seeking some enlightenment with regard to your suggestion I'd ask: What are your earliest memories? What are your earliest memories of pain? What are your earliest memories of spirituality? When did you move beyond the intelligence of a squirrel? Are you a vegen? Are you a Christian? Is everyone? Should they be?

"If there is even a chance that life begins at conception then why would you want to take the chance of commiting murder?"

Perhaps "murder" is what needs to be clearly defined.

"Would you admit that "if" life begins at conception that abortion is murder?"

No. I wouldn't. I wouldn't, even if it was the beginning of HUMAN life. I wouldn't even if it was the beginning of sentient human life. I might not unless we could prove that particular human sentient life remembered being traumatized and mutilated in the womb and we could demonstrate that it damaged that particular human's eternal soul and spirit, irreparably.

Believing in eternal souls, God, Heaven and Hell might influence my beliefs.

It's a messy, danged war out there. A lot of innocents die in war. I don't see anyone crying for them. I don't see anybody being damned to hell for being sloppy in the execution of their political, corporate or religious agendas...unless it's perceived as unchristian or unamerican. Heaven help us.

acg 7 years, 6 months ago

I love nothing more than seeing you guys get RT all riled up. Can't ya'll just picture him, sitting in front of his comp shrieking like a howler monkey at all of the "idiots" that don't share his deluded opinions?! roflmao! That's too funny!

Roadkill_Rob 7 years, 6 months ago

Right_Thinker wrote:

"Whaaa!!! Sniff, Sniff...WHAAAA!!!!!"

Yours Truly, Jerk-Off

manyblessings 7 years, 6 months ago

I cannot endorse a candidate who is pro abortion any more than I could endorse one that advocated any other kind of murder. I notice there are very few women who will stand proudly and announce that they had an abortion and are unashamed to the public. Even those who would openly flaunt their liberal beliefs about other issues. I have seen women who deeply regretted having an abortion in the past. There are support groups that address these issues for women and even men who have been affected by the abortion of their child. Just as women mourn after having a miscarriage, it is natural to mourn after an abortion.

deec 7 years, 6 months ago

And sperm are potential people too so you gents really shouldn't be "helping yourselves".

rhd99 7 years, 6 months ago

ACG, my apologies. I was trying to amplify my argument against these nut cases who say "Abortion is issue # 1". Your quote was correct & you are to be commended. I was using your quote to your favor because Phil Kline & Kline backers all have one thing in common: Their only stance in life is this: "End Abortions or BUST". Well, the anti-abortion lobby has some logic that is TOTALLY twisted. They claim they are pro-life, but at the same time deny others the opportunity to FULLY research for possible cures to horrific diseases related to Muscular Dystrophy. Tell me, righties, about your plans for saving life when you all call for a freeze on funding for research that could lead to life-saving medicines. I saw a few postings back where people say that abortions are murder, so too is delaying the production of life-saving medicines & research for ALS, MS, & Parkinson's Disease patients & their families. People die from these & other horrific MD diseases, you Kline backing hypocrites!

Crispian Paul 7 years, 6 months ago

absolutelyridiculous (Anonymous) says:

and I take the orphan child. Where are your unbiased sources that say life doesn't begin at conception? Come on. Show your cards!

You didn't answer my initial question....You asked someone to prove life does NOT begin at conception. I am asking you to prove that it does. The point was that this argument is stupid, because you'll never find proof either way. It is simply a belief and beliefs should not be legislated.

Crispian Paul 7 years, 6 months ago

mommy3 (Anonymous) says:

Let it go, the world is a better place because right thinker, and crispian (and all the others) didn't have kids. God forbid their children go to their first dance, or drive their first car, or join my kids for their first day of kindergarden:oh, they can't they were killed by their parents!! The roads are safer, the schools are safer:let it go. Well, luckily my three children are alive and well, and learning from their christian parents. If anything we should feel sorry for them, for not having the joy and peace of knowing that their children are being raised by a loving family. Well, I take that back they have seem to have peace knowing their child was thrown in the dumpster in the back of the clinic getting munched on by the local pest. I don't push my veiws, but you all are pushing yours. I live everyday seeing my children's beautiful faces, what do you see?

EXCUSE ME?
1) you imply I have had an abortion? Not so. Never been pregnant. 2) Again, you imply I am selfish and a murderer because you assume I've had an abortion. Not true. 3) I don't think I pushed my views on any person. I singled out no one per se, so you, ma'am are the pusher. 4) when you assume, you make an.......well, you know the rest. Supporting choice does not mean I have had an abortion, dummy.

Crispian Paul 7 years, 6 months ago

This is my response to Mommy3 privately, but I would like to post it publicly.

I just wanted to ask where you got that I had had an abortion, because that is what your post implies. I, unlike you, actually have my identifying information on here because I am not scared for people to know how I feel. BUT, I don't appreciate your supposedly Christian self making assumptions about and slandering (or rather committing libel) on me publicly. Wow, you are such a Christian.

BTW, I have not had an abortion, as you so stupidly implied.

Crispian Paul 7 years, 6 months ago

Also, Mommy3, apparently you can't read because right_thinker is anti-abortion, but yet you lump him in with me as a baby killer or whatever you want to call me, so your post is even that much more idiotic. I am not sure what bothers me more...that you misled yourself into thinking I have had an abortion OR that you lumped me in with Right_Thinker, considering some of the go rounds he and I have had before.

In addition, if you HAD read one of my above posts, you would see that I personally would not want to have an abortion, but that does not mean I don't support choice. Mommy3, I saw you home school. I would be worried about your kids' learning based on your own idiocracy. (Thanks Mike Judge for the "Idiocracy" term)

Crispian Paul 7 years, 6 months ago

Wow, Right_Thinker, you and I agreeing on something? Stunned silence.

Crispian Paul 7 years, 6 months ago

Well, for me, R_T, the word choice implies choice over many aspects of reproductive control. Lest you forget, many people who are "anti-abortion" are also anti-contraception, anti-emergency contraception, etc. There are pharmacists who refuse to fill valid birth control or morning after prescriptions based on "conscience clauses".

mommy3 7 years, 6 months ago

Crispian, It is strange how you continue to attack with name calling and then private messages that are them posted publicly.....what's the point of a private message? I am not sorry for anything I said to you, however I am sorry for what I said to Right _Thinker I had you confused with someone else. Yes, I do home school my children, and am teaching them the difference between right and wrong. I teach my children the same way someone who doesn't have the same beliefs teaches their children. I have that right. You say that we "christians" are pushing our views, but yet you continue to bash us the entire way, and then expect us not to fight back. I don't claim to be perfect, and I don't claim to be a wimp that will allow you to put down my beliefs instead of just answering the question asked by the LJW. It's funny how non christians, can try to back us into a corner, but then when we fight back, you point a finger and say "Don't force your idea's on me, your not being very christian like!" My comment was to those you have had abortions, and continue to up-hold abortion. If you can sit here and yell your STUPID ideas, then what makes it wrong for me to do the same? It's simple, take birth control, or better yet don't have sex until your ready for a kid. It all boils back down to what we teach our children. If you teach them it is ok, and you teach them that sex at 13 is ok, them you wind up with a high abortion rate, or high welfare rate. It's a sad cycle. A 13 year old mother can't raise a upstanding adult, so what will their children do at 13? Make adoption easier, make birth control easier, or just say NO! Oh, and what was the point in bringing up my homeschooling? What does that have to do with anything? Go back and read a veiw of your comments, you sad some pretty STUPID stuff.....

mommy3 7 years, 6 months ago

I am backing out of this post, because all I see here is a bunch of angry people, or don't have enough respect for the other posters to keep from calling each other names. You can't blaim it on other posters because it started from the begining. It is sad when we take the value of human life and destroy it as a way to avoid dealing with our choices. Maybe if the 16 year old who instead of getting an abortion decided to give her baby up for adoption, would deal with her body changes and her peers see what happens to a person mentally and phys, then they would opt for better protection, or admit they aren't ready for sex. When I became pregnant, I knew from the start that there was life inside me. Each time I knew. I can't imagine that either one of my precious gifts wouldn't be here, because mommy dicided for them, to end their life. It breaks my heart to see the anger that this post brings out in people (including myself). I had a miscarriage at the age of 19, and it broke my heart that I had to push this "tissue" out of my body into a bed pan. I had felt the baby move inside me, and then it was gone. How can I ever think that baby was not a life? Only God knows why my baby didn't live to do all the things life brings our way. Good or bad. Well, I wish you all farewell. I have a busy life that calls me, and can't sit here typing my thoughts away at people you have closed minds. BYE!

Crispian Paul 7 years, 6 months ago

mommy3 (Anonymous) says:

Crispian, It is strange how you continue to attack with name calling and then private messages that are them posted publicly:..what's the point of a private message? I am not sorry for anything I said to you, however I am sorry for what I said to Right _Thinker I had you confused with someone else. Yes, I do home school my children, and am teaching them the difference between right and wrong. I teach my children the same way someone who doesn't have the same beliefs teaches their children. I have that right. You say that we "christians" are pushing our views, but yet you continue to bash us the entire way, and then expect us not to fight back. I don't claim to be perfect, and I don't claim to be a wimp that will allow you to put down my beliefs instead of just answering the question asked by the LJW. It's funny how non christians, can try to back us into a corner, but then when we fight back, you point a finger and say "Don't force your idea's on me, your not being very christian like!" My comment was to those you have had abortions, and continue to up-hold abortion. If you can sit here and yell your STUPID ideas, then what makes it wrong for me to do the same? It's simple, take birth control, or better yet don't have sex until your ready for a kid. It all boils back down to what we teach our children. If you teach them it is ok, and you teach them that sex at 13 is ok, them you wind up with a high abortion rate, or high welfare rate. It's a sad cycle. A 13 year old mother can't raise a upstanding adult, so what will their children do at 13? Make adoption easier, make birth control easier, or just say NO! Oh, and what was the point in bringing up my homeschooling? What does that have to do with anything? Go back and read a veiw of your comments, you sad some pretty STUPID stuff:..

Again, you are making an assumption that I had an abortion, which is untrue.

You are so special, "Christian".

Crispian Paul 7 years, 6 months ago

Mommy3, You said you were just answering the question posed. If that were the case, Why in the world did you bring my name up unprovoked. You started with me, personally. I simply finished it. Have fun teaching your children poor grammar and "moral" values.

I don't bash Christians, just those that claim to be.

Crispian Paul 7 years, 6 months ago

mommy3 (Anonymous) says:

I am backing out of this post, because all I see here is a bunch of angry people, or don't have enough respect for the other posters to keep from calling each other names. You can't blaim it on other posters because it started from the begining. It is sad when we take the value of human life and destroy it as a way to avoid dealing with our choices. Maybe if the 16 year old who instead of getting an abortion decided to give her baby up for adoption, would deal with her body changes and her peers see what happens to a person mentally and phys, then they would opt for better protection, or admit they aren't ready for sex.

So is this saying that making an example or a spectacle of a child who is having a child is the best preventative for other children? Setting abortion aside, this is how you propose to get other kids not to have sex or get pregnant? Wow.

manyblessings 7 years, 6 months ago

Also, if you want to know the true politics behind abortion do a bit of research on Margaret Sanger and her beliefs. She was a racist who wanted to get rid of certain segments of the population. Here are some quotes:

"The most merciful thing that a family does to one of its infant members is to kill it." Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood

"Birth control must lead ultimately to a cleaner race." Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood

"We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal. We don't want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population:" Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood

"Eugenic sterilization is an urgent need ... We must prevent multiplication of this bad stock." Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood

"Eugenics is : the most adequate and thorough avenue to the solution of racial, political and social problems. Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood

"Birth control itself, often denounced as a violation of natural law, is nothing more or less than the facilitation of the process of weeding out the unfit, of preventing the birth of defectives or of those who will become defectives." Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood

"The unbalance between the birth rate of the 'unfit' and the 'fit,' [is] the greatest present menace to civilization: the most urgent problem today is how to limit and discourage the over-fertility of the mentally and physically defective." Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood

"The campaign for birth control is not merely of eugenic value, but is practically identical with the final aims of eugenics." Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood

"Our failure to segregate morons who are increasing and multiplying: a dead weight of human waste: an ever-increasing, unceasingly spawning class of human beings who never should have been born at all." Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood

"The undeniably feeble-minded should, indeed, not only be discouraged but prevented from propagating their kind." Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood

"Give dysgenic groups [people with 'bad genes'] in our population their choice of segregation or [compulsory] sterilization." Margaret Sanger, Founder of Planned Parenthood

mfurler 7 years, 6 months ago

It's a pity there are so many abortions when there are also so many couples who cannot have children...

pelliott 7 years, 6 months ago

I consider it an important medical issue. I do not want someones religious issues determining my medical care, nor my relationship definetion, nor determine if it should be legal for me to buy something on Sunday. Fat chance, though.

deec 7 years, 6 months ago

If kline had actually been interested in underage sex, he would have been as aggressively investigating live births to females under 16 1/2. The Sanger quotes are taken completely out of context. Read the whole book. Sanger was in favor of birth control because of the suffering of women who couldn't NOT get pregnant. She cites examples of women who died in childbirth due to the inability to have sufficient recovery time between pregnancies. She also discusses the children with no mothers, as well as women who attempted self-abortion and died as a result. Generally speaking she was in favor of people who were incapable of caring emotionally and financially for their children limiting their birth rate.

manyblessings 7 years, 6 months ago

" Generally speaking she was in favor of people who were incapable of caring emotionally and financially for their children limiting their birth rate. "

Incapable by whose standards?

manyblessings 7 years, 6 months ago

"manyblessings, you write very good "fiction." Your lack of any sort of reasonable attribution is most telling. Thanks for the laugh! :))

Agnostick"

Perhaps instead of resorting to insults you could bless us with some of your higher level reasoning and insight on the subject. What was Margaret Sanger's true intention and purpose for founding Planned Parenthood? Do tell.

Kodiac 7 years, 6 months ago

Many Blessings and 75x55,

Maybe instead attacking anyone and everyone that disagrees with your little "sound bite" analysis, you would do well to investigate the her and her life a more fully instead of relying on past and present religious authorities to do your thinking for you. I do not know Sanger well and but do know that she is not as racist nor as "evil" as you are making her out to be . She was of course very concerned about the health of women and clearly preferred contraception over abortion. Some of those quotes are indeed taken out of context and some of the words in those quotes have been left out. Sorry I don't have time to go and hunt down sources for you but I can will try later when I have more time. Also the timeframe those quotes were said were in the 1920's to 1930's at which time eugenics was all the rage especially with mentally ill and handicapped persons. An example of this can be seen in other famous individuals such as Alexander Graham Bell, inventor of the telephone, who wrote an essay on preventing deaf persons from reproducing. As far as eugenics goes 75x55, I can remember reading that Sanger did strongly opposed the anti-semitic eugenic programs being done by the Nazis which is never brought by any of those who wish to equate Sanger with the Nazis. So maybe I should just repeat what you just said to you in that "perhaps instead of resorting to insults you could bless us with some of your higher level reasoning and insight on the subject. What was Margaret Sanger's true intention and purpose for founding Planned Parenthood?" I suggest you start reading about the history of abortion and what was going on in the 1920s and 1930s. Remember abortion was illegal the entire time Sanger was alive...

Kodiac 7 years, 6 months ago

75x55,

Nope just want you to say what you mean by eugenics. It seems to quite a large field if you ask me. I guess if you are practicing contraception, technically you are practicing eugenics. I just wanted to point out that given this timeframe, certain type of eugenics was considered to be the "proper" ethical thing to do when dealing with certain populations by many people. You wouldn't imagine slavery to be ethical or condoned but it was in the past and supported biblically by many I might add. So 75x55, as a christian, may we infer that you support slavery and call you a racist?

deec 7 years, 6 months ago

Which of Sanger's books are these quotes purported to come from? I have read Sanger's Woman and the New Race several times (the whole book, not just select quotes pulled out of context for some pro-life website). All quotes from Woman and the New Race, Truth Publishing Co., 3rd printing, 1921. Sanger was opposed to abortion: "Hence it is that, from time immemorial, she has sought some form of family limitation. When she has not employed such measures consciously, she has done so instinctively. Where laws, customs and religious restrictions do not prevent, she has recourse to contraceptives. Otherwise she resorts to child abandonment, abortion and infanticide, or resigns herself hopelessly to enforced maternity." page 11. "While there are cases where eve the law recognizes an abortion as justifiable if recommended by a physician, I assert that the hundreds of thousands of abortions performed in America each year are a disgrace to civilization." page 126.

Regarding the increase in infant mortality rate in large families: This does not complete the case, however, for those who care to go farther into the subject will find that many of those who live for a year die before they reach the age of five. Many, perhaps will think it idle to go farther in demonstrating the immorality of large families, but since there is still an abundance of proof at hand, it may be offered for the sake of those who find difficulty in adjusting old-fashioned ideas to the facts. The most merciful thing that the large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it. The same factors which create the terrible infant mortality rate, and which swell the death rate of children between the ages of one and five, operate even more extensively to lower the health rate of the surviving members." page 63

On the American race: "Each of us has an ideal of what the American of the future should be. we have been told times without number that out of the mixture of stocks, the intermingling of ideas and aspirations, there is to come a race greater than any which has contributed to the population of the United States." page 30 "If we are to develop in America a new race with a racial soul, we must keep the birth rate within the scope of our ability to understand as well as to educate. We must not encourage reproduction beyond our capacity to assimilate our numbers so as to make the coming generation into such physically fit, mentally capable, socially alert individuals as are the ideal of a democracy." page 44

erod0723 7 years, 6 months ago

Why does the LJW have to incite stupid arguments like this?

absolutelyridiculous 7 years, 6 months ago

Are you people STILL here? Pro-lifers...shake the dust off your sandals and move on. There are bigger pools to swim in than this.

trinity 7 years, 6 months ago

anybody here read "the pitch"? there is an excellent-a-mundo article about kansas' most infamous pro lifer; some of the stuff in this article about his new disicples just makes me wanna hurl.

oh hell it's friday&i feel generous, lmao-here's the link; http://www.pitch.com/2007-06-21/news/the-dimwit-d-a/full

rhd99 7 years, 6 months ago

We will never agree on this issue, sports fans, & that is the way the cookie crumbles in American politics. Let me ask you all, REGARDLESS of party affiliation, do you really want BUREAUCRATS telling us how to live? If you do, then pack your things & move to North Korea. Compromise is good. I want compromise more than anyone here, but this issue will never be resolved as long as incompetent bureaucrats like KLINE are in office at ANY level. Killing babies is wrong. The problem is how does one figure that a future mother's health is in danger? We will never know. I'll tell you all right now, only one has the final say on this issue. You know who is not the final judge in all this? The POLITICIANS & bureaucrats & all of us here on this board & throughout America!

purplesage 7 years, 6 months ago

Lulu shows uncommon forthrightness saying that, in certain circumstances, it is OK to "kill my baby" but then falls back to "it looks like a shrimp" or questions about being "defective".

The number of comments that say it is important but OK because a personal decision is involved prove this is an important political issue. When we lose the personal sense of what is or is not permissible, the government steps in to legislate.

If we do not want "legislated morality" we must practice personal morality and responsibility.

Did you notice the the Canton, OH cop (who is married to one woman and was in the process of having his second child with another) is now being charged with 2 counts of murder, one for the girlfriend; the other for their unborn child. A few weeks ago, Killer Tiller could have taken that life with apparent impunity. Totally inconsistent.

Society must care for the most helpless. If we do not respect the unborn, then setting the elders adrift on the ice flow is acceptable. Of course, I know some of you think that, too.

deec 7 years, 6 months ago

I don't think it is good public policy to vote on the factuality of a scientific theory. I don't think it is good public policy to vote approval/disapproval for civil rights. I don't think it is advisable to vote for curtailing freedom of speech. I don't think my ability to make medical decisions for myself should be subject to popular vote or government fiat. So no, don't like your idea, sorry.

purplesage 7 years, 6 months ago

I say no to the vote idea raised by Reality - not because it is a bad idea because it isn't. We settle lots of things by a matter of a vote. This, however, is not an issue to be determined by a vote. It is an objective, moral issue which is not decided by human opinion because it is beyond us.

packrat 7 years, 6 months ago

I say no to Reality_Check's idea about a 20 year vote. Would people advocating other social/legal change like to wait 20 years if their issue failed to win? I think the same-sex marriage advocates with have an issue with that. This should be a state not federal issue.

rhd99 7 years, 6 months ago

Come on, folks, let's end this right now. No voting booth will help us & I MOST CERTAINLY know that Kline Bureaucrats & politicians ARE NOT going to help resolve this problem when a mother's health could be in danger. People who spew hatred towards Tiller & blow up abortion clinics are NOT pro-life. They are self-righteous LUNATICS! If you're not scared now, you better be. Topeka politicians AND Kline represent the ills of elitists in office who hate people with opposing views. I don't have time for their pollution. It's time to vote them out.

preebo 7 years, 6 months ago

For me Abortion ranks a distant 10th behind Environmental Stewardship, Universal Healthcare, Balanced Budget, education, and so on...

Basically, it is probably the last issue I base my political decisions on.

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