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Should illegal immigrants receive tougher penalties for committing crimes?

Asked at Borders, 700 N.H. on January 20, 2007

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Photo of Gary Vespestad

“No. It should be fair across the board. They shouldn’t be penalized for being an illegal immigrant, they should penalized for the committing the crime.”

Photo of Linda Curtiss

“If they are here in the states illegally, that should be addressed as well as the crime. The penalty for the crime itself should be the same.”

Photo of Richard Wendt

“I would say no. An equal punishment seems more humanitarian.”

Photo of Nancy Reno

“I think it should be the same. They shouldn’t be punished more than someone who is a citizen for doing something that is considered equally wrong.”

Comments

denak 7 years, 3 months ago

Asbestos,

I really have no idea why, but I just spent the last 30 minutes or so, trying to address all the fallacies in your two posts to me. I gave up because I could not keep it under 3000 characters.

I just want to say a few things and hopefully I can get it under 3000 characters.

1) the two reasons people come here undocumented is to a) be reunited with their family and b) to work.

2) The Mexican Army has not stopped the influx of immigrants coming from Central America. It is underfunded, mandatory for those whose number is called in the lottery and has low morale. Southern immigration is not a priority for the Army or for most Mexicans.

3) I did not bring in the whole race card. Watch the t.v. commericals, read the literature and listen to the right wing commentators. They routinely use imflammatory words,often dressed up in racial terms, to sell their point of view. Organizations such as the Minutemen have routinely been criticized for deliberately distorting the facts about undocumented immigration.

5) Undocumented and documented immigrants commit crimes in the same proportion as their American counterparts.

Historically, the U.S. and Mexico have had had a revolving door of labor. People come here, work and leave. The average stay is three years. They come here in order to earn enough money to feed their families. Most workers make more in a hour here then they do in a day there.

Most do not commit crimes. Those that do should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. If they are here undocumented, INS should start deportation proceedings. There should not be a different sentencing scale because they are undocumented.

It would behoove you to actually go down to Mexico and talk to people in the various organizations. You don't even need to speak Spanish. They have interpreters.

And unlike you,I have actually been to Mexico several times. Unlike you I have actually spoken to people, YES PEOPLE, on both sides of the border, some who were about to cross.

Perhaps, you should do the same. You won't but you should.

It is you who might open your eyes and learn something.

Dena

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Jamesaust 7 years, 3 months ago

"COnstitutional protections are only guarnteed for CItizens and legal residents and legal entrants."

The Constitution says: nor shall any State ... deny to any PERSON within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

So, how long have you had your ignorance problem? What part of "equal" is difficult for your to grasp?

"Only those blinded by the left wing (or George Bush vision of immigration) propaganda..." LOL!!!!!!!!! The left wing or George Bush! Precious, just precious.
You know that you're a wacko extremist when your opponents are comprised of the "left wing" AND Bush.

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ASBESTOS 7 years, 3 months ago

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"However, back to the original question, no, being undocumented is a different criminal classification. "

NO being an ILLEGAL ALIEN (that is what undocumented means) IS a different criminal because they are already in the commission of mulptiple crimes. Idnetity theft or fraud. Working in the US without the appropriate VISA or permits. They also entered the US illegally without passport and or VISA. How many crime can you commit as a US Citizen without being prosecuted?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"I work with a great many Spanish speaking people, and every single one of them are trying to learn English even to the point, that some of them will not speak Spanish to me even though I need it to further my studies."

Since you are talking abut "undocumented" wher is it that you work DENA? We ned to sic ICE on them. IF they are here legally, then they have NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT. But know this, there are large organizations of people doing one thing, watching those whom hire illeals and reporting them to ICE. ANd yes the employers usually employ illegal aliens in the demographic of latino or hispanic.

DENA you need to open your eyes. What some swarthy latino man strike your fancy, and now you are an activist and supporter of illegal aliens?

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ASBESTOS 7 years, 3 months ago

"This question, and those like it, are nothing more then immigrant baiting."

NO this is about ILLEGAL ALIEN baiting (As these are NOT immigrants), this is NOT about LEGAL IMMIGRANTS. There is a difference there denak. BIG DIFFERENCE. I like immigrants as they show they will respect and obey and be guided by our laws. Illegal Aliens however choose to ignore all of our laws and need to be removed. BIG DIFFERENCE!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"Of course it is more effective to project this image of a brown face, spanish speaking, poor scurge "invading" our country, then to talk about the reality of those who live here after their visas expire."

Yes it is much easier for you to place the RACE CARD than to come up with a logical and cogent argument for accepting lawbreakers into our country and then expect them to obey the law after they show they have no respect of it in the first place. Dumb A!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"I do not believe that illegal immigrants should receive tougher sentences for committing crimes."

THis is not about tougher sentences, it is about taking away the "Suspended Sentence" and parole form illegal alien criminals so they will not flee. IF the Judges were doing their job, and following appropriate guidance on flight risk, the illegals would already not get suspended senteces and strict curtailing of parole. That would be IF the Judges did their jobs.

Hence the need for this change. Same as Meagans Law and Jessica's law. Judges went soft on Child predators and ignored the sentence guidelines and let this ilk go. SO the legislatures stepped in.

This is NOT uncommon or unconstitutional. Only those blinded by the left wing (or George Bush vision of immigration) propaganda think this has any problems. COnstitutional protections are only guarnteed for CItizens and legal residents and legal entrants. THis protection is not for , nor can or should it be extended to every Yahoo whom took a chance and walked across the border.

I feel that this is a moot point as the border protection and activities of ICE on empolyers and the National Guard is already reducing the numbers coming in. THe MExican Army on THEIR SOUTHERN BORDER has stopped the Central and South American ilk. SO this is already muted. ALl we have to do is secure the border and have to do NOTHING. Attrition and the rest will take care of itself. That is what the actions and reductions of incoming illegals has shown.

"There are more immigrants coming her on job visas and education visas and staying after their visas expire then there are coming over the Rio Grande."

NOT TRUE. GO to NUMBERSUSA.org. That is flat out false. We issue LOTS fewer visas.

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Larry 7 years, 3 months ago

Jonas - The inability to pay hospital bills is certainly not just symptomatic of illegal immigrants. I would guess that naturalized citizens make up a majority share on their own.

I agree but I'd rather not increase the number of people that can't pay their medical bills because in the end, we all pay for it.

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denak 7 years, 3 months ago

I do not believe that illegal immigrants should receive tougher sentences for committing crimes.

This question, and those like it, are nothing more then immigrant baiting.

Contrary to what some believe, most immigrants are here legally and most "UNDOCUMENTED" immigrants, first came here legally.

There are more immigrants coming her on job visas and education visas and staying after their visas expire then there are coming over the Rio Grande.

Of course it is more effective to project this image of a brown face, spanish speaking, poor scurge "invading" our country, then to talk about the reality of those who live here after their visas expire. After all, why talk about the college educated engineer who when you can scare people with that old Mexican stereotype.

Are there legitimate issues surronding immigration, both documented and undocumented. Yes, absolutely.

But this new(???) wave of immigrants, is no different then the other waves of immigrants that have come here in the past.

It never fails to amuse me when people say "well my ancestors came here legally" usually I ask them how do they know. Most of us don't. I don't know how my ancestors got here and I don't care. They came here and they became citizens in spite of the taunts, religious bigotry and "steering" practices.

And yes, they learned English. As do the people who come here today. I work with a great many Spanish speaking people, and every single one of them are trying to learn English even to the point, that some of them will not speak Spanish to me even though I need it to further my studies.

However, back to the original question, no, being undocumented is a different criminal classification. If a person commits a serious crime, then he or she, should do his or her time. While incarcerated, INS, should proceed with deportation proceedings.

If a person is here on an expired visa, and they commit a misdeminor, then they should be given an appropriate sentence and given a reasonable amount of time to get their visa status updated. If they do not, in the alloted amount of time, they can try one of the other avenues to stay here (ie asylum) and if not, then they should have to go back to their birth country and take care of the visa problems there.

Dena

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Marion Lynn 7 years, 3 months ago

oh

sorry

For those of you unfamiliar with the term "Ma Deuce"; it refers to the M2 Browning 50 Calibre Machine Gun.

Take a look.

This thing can solve any number of illegal immigration problems!

The "Ma Deuce":

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/mg/M2.html

Why waltz when you can Rock And Roll?

Thanks.

Marion.

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Marion Lynn 7 years, 3 months ago

Politically speaking, of course.

Thanks.

Marion.

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Marion Lynn 7 years, 3 months ago

Uh, that should read "open" and "cutter".

Thanks.

Marion.

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Marion Lynn 7 years, 3 months ago

Guam.

A big fenced in area on Guam.

Fenced right up to the seashore which is opne but guarded by a single citter armed with about fifty Ma Deuces.

All illegals and all illegals who commit crimes go there.

'til someone else wants them out.

They can fish, they can swim but if they try to escape, the Ma Deuces SPEAK!

Thanks.

Marion.

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budwhysir 7 years, 3 months ago

Person of interest:

Politicaly speaking, it seems you have something to say. Unpolticaly speaking, we can not tell what this is

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ljreader 7 years, 3 months ago

Does this mean Tom Tancredo can't count on you for a vote?

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Jamesaust 7 years, 3 months ago

"but my auto insurance, my health insurance, and my taxes would go down...Fewer illegals means less of a need for larger schools and prisons!"

What a magical world it must be inside your head. What else do they say about dark-skinned, funny speaking people? Please tell us. I'm sure many besides myself would be interested.

Did it ever occur to you that the correlation between cities and localities with rapidly growing economies and high numbers of immigrants is something more than a coincidence?

This is Kansas, home of a slow-if-growing economy. Outside of beef-packing plant (and other similar dangerous or repulsive jobs) towns, I wouldn't expect you to have to pony up much change to pay for little Juanita's inoculation.

Strangely enough, many political candidates running in the last election with voices inside their heads producing stupid, racist statements such as yours - especially in areas with large numbers of immigrants - LOST. Hmmm....coincidence? Go figure.

Now that the 'do nothing' Congress is gone, perhaps the non-troglodyte community can reform the imbalanced demand/supply situation by increasing the number of legal immigrants to a number matching the demand for labor (something we've never had in this country from the day the government started regulating immigration) and provide economic assistance to nearby countries (something not-so generous, Christian America pales in comparison with morals-challenged Holland or Sweden) with economies incapable of providing jobs and trade to support their people.

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ASBESTOS 7 years, 3 months ago

"Earth Below Me Drifting Falling Coming Coming Home"

Major Tom

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person_of_interest 7 years, 3 months ago

ljreader, you said it!

I always have to laugh when someone says (in defense of "illegals")....."Oh, okay, sure, send them all back to Mexico...and you'll be paying 10 dollars for a head of lettuce...and 5 dollars for a McDonald's hamburger...because nobody else wants to do those jobs for the wages that Mexicans work for!!!"

Ooooooooooooooh! Wow! You got me there, huh?!

Well......in sooo many other areas of life I'm paying more now (as a taxpayer) because of the illegals....so I think if you sent them back (or denied them entry)......the price of my burger and salad woud go up...but my auto insurance, my health insurance, and my taxes would go down!!! Fewer illegals means less of a need for larger schools and prisons!

...........okay..............countdown to some poster accuses "person of interest" of being a HATE-FILLED BIGOT! A MEAN BASTARD WHO VOTES REPUBLICAN AND WANTS TO SEE ALL ILLEGAL ALIENS HANGED!! --ESPECIALLY THE ILLEGAL ALIENS WHO HAPPEN TO BE GAY, BI-SEXUAL OR TRANSGENDERED!!!

Right?

Yup!

That post is sure to follow here shortly.......5....4....3.....2....

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Bone777 7 years, 3 months ago

Waiting between girls volleyball games.

It was that or ceiling tiles...

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budwhysir 7 years, 3 months ago

bone777:

Where do you find the time??

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Bone777 7 years, 3 months ago

I was recently at a junior high school in Pasco, Washington and I was looking at the board with all of the athletic team pictures.

I counted 200 kids in the pictures.

191 Hispanics 7 Caucasians 2 African americans

Interestingly non-diverse in the Pacific Northwest.

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Bone777 7 years, 3 months ago

Yeah, they should receive tougher penalties for committing crimes.

They should get an illegal immigrant enhancement, just like a firearms enhancement, or a school zone enhancement.

Penalize them for breaking the law, while breaking the law.

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budwhysir 7 years, 3 months ago

Ok lets read a serious article now.

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ASBESTOS 7 years, 3 months ago

"Do you know any illegals here?"

YEah they took over the apartment comples on Ousdahl off 23rd street behind the Plasma place. They are also sprinkled through out there in Redbud lane.

High Crime area too. Coincidence.

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ljreader 7 years, 3 months ago

Let's not forget that billions of dollars earned by them do not stay in the American economy, but is sent back to their homelands- They can afford to send money they earn because American taxpayers are picking up the tab for most of their living expenses.

Most of them have stolen identities in order to "do the jobs Americans won't do". (A tired LIE that needs to be retired. No one believes that crap anymore). American citizens are lining up out the doors to seek employment in companies raided by ICE. So, besides entering or staying here illegally, most are also guilty of identity theft and fraud so they can work here. Not all are here to work. Some are smuggling humans and drugs. Some are making a fortune selling fake documents. Some are scamming social services. They are all taking something they are not legally entitled to, because they are not supposed to be here to begin with. Harsher penalties for employers sounds good, but won't help if those laws are not enforced. All able bodied prisoners- legal and illegal- should be recruited to build a fence along the border. Simply deporting them seems to do no good. They turn right around and come back. Many from Central and South America lie and say they came from Mexico so they are returned there, and it won't take them so long to get back into the US so they can resume their free rides on the backs of taxpayers again.

Illegal immigrants have to be given NO reason to come here, and EVERY reason not to. No perks including jobs, food stamps, housing, free medical, education and in-state tuition. If we didn't roll out the welcome wagon for them, and if we actually punished them for their crimes, most would have no choice but to self deport, and others would stop coming here to begin with. Here's a nifty counter: http://www.immigrationcounters.com/

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budwhysir 7 years, 3 months ago

Politicaly speaking, does this question realy need to be asked?

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Jamesaust 7 years, 3 months ago

ASBESTOS: "Uh, YES it is a crime, a misdeanor. That is why you have to have a hearing and can get prosecuted, incarcerated, and deported."

Its called "misdemeanor" - btw. Like: failure to obtain a building permit, or exceeding a safe automobile speed, failure to shovel snow from your sidewalk, or defacing a library book. Something like 99% of the people in Lawrence seem to be these "criminals" you speak of.

Thank you for admitting that there is no equation between the consequences of a failed U.S. immigration system with ordinary murder & mayhem. Why you seem to think that crossing the border without a greencard is next to aggravated sodomy or manslaughter - felonies, I note, not misdemeanors - is beyond me.

Congress has repeatedly declined to make crossing the border without adequate paperwork a felony - for obvious reason.

btw - See here for example on the legal but non-criminal consequences of missed permitting: http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/business/15840333.htm

And, refocusing on the actual issue in this article, as I point out, the proposal is UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

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Shelley Bock 7 years, 3 months ago

Asbestos:

That's 50 billion total, over time, not per year. So that would dramatically affect your calculations. Maybe it's not much of the social security budget, I don't really know. Sounds like you could impress me with some figures.

Please think of something different to say than "that's pathetic". I trust that you can come up with some new words of denigration. Stretch the imagination.

And, for the 3rd time, do you know anything about Douglas County, Kansas? Do you know any illegals here?

Enough of this. I'm going to watch some KU basketball and the snow come down while Asbestos worries if illegals working at McDonalds are eroding America.

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jonas 7 years, 3 months ago

"Just the women, mind you!"

haha.

The inability to pay hospital bills is certainly not just symptomatic of illegal immigrants. I would guess that naturalized citizens make up a majority share on their own. At any rate, we're all just making stuff up, at this point.

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ASBESTOS 7 years, 3 months ago

Hepburn your last post is pathetic. You are losing the argument, and are clueless about the numbers. IF there was 50 billion a year paid into Social Security, and that is roughly 5% of the pay then that means illegals are earning 100 Billion in wages. Divided by 20,000,000 illegal immigrants supposedly in the country gives you an annual income per $50000 annual income for every illeagl alien in the country that is empolyed or not, every man, woman and child (that is what the gorss 20,000,000 number is). So with that contribution of 50 billion in Social Security, assuming 50% are women so 10,000,000, that leaves each woman, just the women mind you with $5000 in benefits to take out a year on emergency covered by poverty Social Social Security and Medicaid. As you can see there is a lot more taken out. Just one illegal in a car accident in an emergency room is more than $5000. Just one birth is more than $5000.

SO they are getting paid cash and $50,000,000,000 is not very much in contirbutions to SS.

OR There are a hell of a lot meor here than 20,000,000!

Still you will not accept your own numbers or the effect of those numbers.

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mick 7 years, 3 months ago

I was driving through Liberal, Kansas and saw a huge sign in the colors of the Mexican flag. It read, "Tierra Nuestra," our land. The word is "reconquista" and means reconquest. Why should they learn English? We should learn Spanish.

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Shelley Bock 7 years, 3 months ago

Asbestos:

You didn't answer the questions:

Do you know any illegals?

Do you know any illegals in Douglas County?

Do you know anything about Douglas County?

They get paid by check and then cash it. Not all, but enough to send in $50 billion in FICA receipts. They don't put it into the bank, they hang onto it in cash. Guess you haven't been poor recently or seen "pay check cashing services."

As to " People like you are pathetic hepburn, you have so little undersatanding" there is a Spanish comment that is appropriate in response.

"Solo Ud. sabe." "Only you know." It's not meant to be complimentary.

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ASBESTOS 7 years, 3 months ago

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"If you complain about free medical services, why aren't you complaining about FICA and income withholding monies for which these illegals won't receive credit."

Seems as if you are the clueless one, as they are mostly paid in cash, so no taxes and no FICA. as in your above post states:

"They don't have ID's so they pay in cash because they don't have check accounts."

So without checking accounts and no legal ID how could they cash a PAYCHECK?????? You do not even have a consistent argument. Remember cashing a check with a false ID and not being the person on the check is a crime! The illegals take far more in services according to the PEW hispanic research institute thatn they pay in because most are illegal and are paid cash. IF they are paid by check the Social Security Admin will inform the employer that they have bogus SSN's, and that is proof that the empolyee is illegal. End of strory.

People like you are pathetic hepburn, you have so little undersatanding. This is eroding America.

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ASBESTOS 7 years, 3 months ago

Jamesaust posts:

"Uh, no. It is not a crime, let alone a major crime. It is a violation of INS regulations. It carries no criminal liability nor punishment - and never has."

Uh, YES it is a crime, a misdeanor. That is why you have to have a hearing and can get prosecuted, incarcerated, and deported. SO YES it is a crime you idiot.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"(So, Dad's to be locked up in prison because he's a 'flight risk' even if his ties here are his children bearing U.S. citizenship and everyone he knows for the last decade, two decade, lifetime(?) are here?"

Yes we lock up AMerican Citizens that commit crimes ALL THE TIME and their sentencing takes NO CONSIDERATION whatsoever of their familial standing. Many people get sent to prison every year that have a wife to support and children to support. That is a BS argument there James.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"I don't give a hoot about what some study purports are the facts in other parts of the country."

Well illegal immigration affectw the ENTIRE COUNTRY! The world is not Lawrence with a fence around it.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"Bank of America? Didn't know they have a branch in Lawrence."

ON 9th street.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"Conviction of a crime is not automatic deportation."

YES it IS under immigration law, especially if you are an illegal alien or illegal entrant. IF you are a legal resident, or legal VISA holder, you have the capacity to fight, but will probably face a deportation hearing. Illegals though, they go.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"Only the most serious of offenders ever come to the attention of ICE. In fact, unless there are many in custody at a single time or they are notorious for their offense, ICE doesn't really care"

Not since the implementatin of "INternal Homeland Security" initiative. THAT is the issue. NO MORE "catch and release" for OTM, Illegal aliens caught will be checked against metrics and if have been convicted or accused of a crime, they will either be deported, or face a hearing and then deportation. YOU DO NOT KNOW THE LAW or the INTENT of that law.

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Shelley Bock 7 years, 3 months ago

Asbestos writes

"Yes there is. THe CAIR research and the PEW research firms did a study on just this. Criminal aliens know that all they have to do is post bail or go on probation and they are "free". They just get another forged and fradulently gained identity and then they move on. Hempbur, you are clueless on illegal aliens.

"What's their major crime?"

Entering the country without permission and entering illegally. Then to work they have to commit another crime such ad forging identity or stealing someones elses. Those are both felonies. Now they are here, and any other illegal act will get them for immediate deportation. WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK THEY ARE GOING TO DO??? THEY ARE GOING TO RUN! That is what they are doing anyway, they are "runing away" from Mexico or some other country. Why woul you expect them NOT to RUN???

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"Illegals pay their traffic court costs and fines at a higher percentage and in cash. "

NOt if they never show up.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"They don't have ID's so they pay in cash because they don't have check accounts. "

Oh that is NOT true, go to Bank of America, and all their banking information is in spanish. The Bank of America ILLEGALLY caters to illegals by helping them get loans and checking accounts with KNOWINGLY FALSIFIED documents. Why do you think all over the southern US Banks are hiring bilingual loan managers for house and car loans at twice the rate they are hiring english only loan officers? Banks are "aiding and abetting" illegal aliens and crime.

You hepburn have NO understanding os what you are posting. COMPLETELY CLUELESS with a far left wing bent on "OPEN BORDERS"."


Clueless? No idea? No understanding? You've gotten asbestosis of the mind there Asbestos.

You haven't been in court in Douglas County and you don't know any illegals, do you. I DO! I don't give a hoot about what some study purports are the facts in other parts of the country. I know the facts in Douglas County, Kansas, and you DON'T! Your conclusion that they simply run is not supported by the facts in Lawrence.

Bank of America? Didn't know they have a branch in Lawrence.

Conviction of a crime is not automatic deportation. Only the most serious of offenders ever come to the attention of ICE. In fact, unless there are many in custody at a single time or they are notorious for their offense, ICE doesn't really care. They don't have the resources and interest.

If you complain about free medical services, why aren't you complaining about FICA and income withholding monies for which these illegals won't receive credit. You may be correct that they receive medical services that aren't paid. But, what about the $50 billion plus that's been paid into the Social Security fund without any valid payor by illegals. Or withheld taxes illegals won't get. Want to keep that money, don't you.

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Agnostick 7 years, 3 months ago

Marion's first post was good--ASBESTOS essentially improved it.

Illegals should be deported, immediately, unless they kill somebody. Then, automatic death penalty (Why should we house and feed them for the rest of their lives, when they were here illegally to begin with?).

As Pilgrim pointed out, our economy got along just fine before the giant influx of illegals. The only thing illegals have really provided this country is a way for corporate executives to maximize their profits. Cheap labor has never, in the past... does not now... and will never, in the future... translate into cheaper goods for the consumer. It only allows the "fat cats" to get fatter, by skimping on wages and benefits.

bea, you are right: We need stiffer penalties for companies that knowingly, willingly hire illegals. I have maintained for a long time, and continue to do so, that once a business has been busted a second time for hiring illegals, the government should seize all assets, property, etc. of said business... auction it off to the highest law-abiding bidder... and give the proceeds of the auction to the IRS, as a way of compensating for the employment taxes that business owner has been cheating us on, possibly for several years. Go ahead and scream "Communist!" or "Socialism" or whatever you want--but don't talk about "harsher penalties" unless you're willing to put your money where your mouth is. Yes, seizing a business is a very harsh penalty--but I think it'd only have to happen three or four times before American businesses came to their senses and realized, "Holy sh*t, they're serious about this. We'd better go through our employee records with a fine-tooth comb!"

Finally, as a means of sticking to the "middle path"...

If we're going to crack down hard on illegal immigrants, we should then apply similar diligence towards streamlining our "path to citizenship" for those honest, law-abiding immigrants that want to attain full American citizenship. The process needs to be cheaper and quicker.

And that's my rant for the day...

LET IT SNOW!! LET IT SNOW!! LET IT SNOW!!

Agnostick agnostick@excite.com

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Jamesaust 7 years, 3 months ago

I find it exceedingly strange that critics who insist that undocumented workers' presence in this country causes significant financial burdens upon the taxpayers believe that a necessary reform of that situation is one that INCREASES the burden upon the taxpayers while depriving the community of any contribution by the accused.

(So, Dad's to be locked up in prison because he's a 'flight risk' even if his ties here are his children bearing U.S. citizenship and everyone he knows for the last decade, two decade, lifetime(?) are here? Do people like this State Legislator say these things in their head first and reflect upon them before uttering them out loud?)

Besides, this proposal is UNCONSTITUTIONAL. Due process is guaranteed by the Constitution to every "PERSON" - not to citizens only. This isn't some 'loophole'. Its intended to be this way! Here's a link to the 14th Amendment: http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.amendmentxiv.html Please note: it talks about "citizens" until it gets to the due process clause where it switches to "persons." Yes, "persons" includes those here even contrary to U.S. immigration law.

(You don't get to have sentencing schemes that say: Murder, first degree, U.S. citizen - 20 years; Murder, first degree, non-U.S. citizen - 50 years.)

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Jamesaust 7 years, 3 months ago

ASBESTOS - '"What's their major crime?" Entering the country without permission and entering illegally. '

Uh, no. It is not a crime, let alone a major crime. It is a violation of INS regulations. It carries no criminal liability nor punishment - and never has.

This has been pointed out to you in the past, so why do you continue to repeat what you (demonstrably) know to be untrue?

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ASBESTOS 7 years, 3 months ago

Bea VERY GOOD!

"The reason we have such a large influx of illegal immigrants is because we don't have tough laws governing those who do the hiring."

We do have some laws, but you are correct they are apparently not harsh enough.

"It isn't extra punishment, but rather complete punishment for all of the crimes committed."

I like that statement ... ALOT!

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beatrice 7 years, 3 months ago

curious: "I was in an English speaking third world country recently at a cyber cafe."

Who knew England had fallen on such hard times?

Seriously, what "third world country" speaks English as its primary language? I have no doubt that they exist, but I am drawing a blank to think of it myself. And which third world countries have cyber cafes? Wouldn't the very presence of a cyber cafe at least qualify it as a developing nation, rather than being third world? I'm just wondering.

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mick 7 years, 3 months ago

Polls show that about 75% of Americans want illegal immigration stopped. Why is the enforcement of our immigration laws even an issue? Because Republicans want cheap labor. Illegal immigrants lower wage rates from the bottom up. And because Democrats are afraid of offending anyone's sense of Political Correctness. In the mean time real Americans suffer due to lower wages and higher taxes but it's really our children's children's children who will suffer due to permanent damage to our culture.

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beatrice 7 years, 3 months ago

You gotta love a statement like, "They shouldn't be penalized for being an illegal immigrant ..." Well, actually, yes they should. They are illegally here and if caught there should be a price to pay for the illegality of the person's entry. That should include deportation.

The reason we have such a large influx of illegal immigrants is because we don't have tough laws governing those who do the hiring. If there were no jobs, we wouldn't have a problem. Instead, we have a massive population of people living on absolute minimal wages (for this country), and then we wonder why additional crimes like burglary happen.

To fix the stream of illegal immigrantion, there should be mandatory jail sentences for the owners of businesses or CEOs of corporations who do not have strict hiring practices to prevent hiring anyone not legally in the country. Go after the source of the money to stop the problem. Otherwise, any fix will be like using a bandaid on a severed artery. Of course, politicians would never go for such a plan since it would be against their monied backers. Instead, we just want to blaim people desperate to earn a living for themselves and their families.

So, to answer the question, no, there shouldn't be two sets of punishments. Crime isn't like paying college tuition with in-state and out-of-state rates. One punishment for a crime. However, the illegality of their entry should also be tacked onto the sentence. It isn't extra punishment, but rather complete punishment for all of the crimes committed.

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jonas 7 years, 3 months ago

We could use them for factory labor, field work, and other menial jobs.

Oh. . . wait.

Yeah, guess we better deport them.

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50YearResident 7 years, 3 months ago

YES! After they serve thier time deport them.

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Curious 7 years, 3 months ago

The director spotlighted in the Lawrence paper recently whose movie will be at Sundance. She was killed because she complained about noise. The person making the noise was illegal and didn't want police attention.

Being illegal does change ones outlook on life. First, not everyone will cross the border illegally, then to live here always looking over one's shoulder. I believe I would be paranoid and consider everyone who looks at me a potential snitch.

I do believe that anyone who commits a crime while in a country illegally should bear the full weight of the law. I was in an English speaking third world country recently at a cyber cafe. Two men speaking French were using the next computer. One left. The attendent hollered at the remaining one. STAND UP. STAND UP. I don't believe he understood her. But she hollered enough that he did understand she was talking to him. WHY DID YOUR FRIEND TAKE THE CELL PHONE? That is what businesses [and everyone] use. Security was there immediately and took him away. I assume the other man was his translator and not a friend. I do hope he was there legally. Otherwise he could disappear for a long time.

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ASBESTOS 7 years, 3 months ago

"Once convicted, an illegal who wants to stay in the US will do everything possible to not draw attention and will follow the rules."

Just re read your diatribe post there Hepburn, and you need to know that "once an illegal alien is convicted" he or she is to be DEPORTED. That is the law, it is just that cities are choosing not to acknowledge their responsibility.

Check out WATTS in LA, the Latino gangs aer trying to kick out the African Americans. The Latino gangs are by and large illegals, by the LA COunty PD estimates. SO here we have illegal criminal elements, institutionalizing in American and Displacing our African American Citizens. YOU DON'T have a problem with that? What, you don't like African Americans? Are you raqcist in preference only to latino and hispanics at the expense of other minorities, that ARE AMERICANS???

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Marion Lynn 7 years, 3 months ago

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The HORROR!

The HORROR!

Yeah; that'd work.

Thanks.

Marion.

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person_of_interest 7 years, 3 months ago

Yes! We should make them listen to endless hours of Barry Manilow songs from the 1970's.

"You came and you gave without taking.....and I sent you away oh, Mandy...."

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Marion Lynn 7 years, 3 months ago

ASBESTOS:

TOO funny!

Chain gangs.

yeah.

With Strother Martin establishing "communication".

Thanks.

Marion.

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ASBESTOS 7 years, 3 months ago

"How about a special prison for illegals convicted of crimes?"

We have one but we don't send them there. It is called MEXICO!

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Marion Lynn 7 years, 3 months ago

How about a special prison for illegals convicted of crimes?

Yes; I can already hear the cries of "Concentration camps!"

So?

Thanks.

Marion.

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ASBESTOS 7 years, 3 months ago

"Treating them equally for separate crimes does not mean they should not be deported or punished for the crime in itself of being here illegally."

Yes it does in the immigratin law. ANY illegal entrant in the US upon the commission of a felony is to be deported pending a return hearing.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"I can think of numerous other problems which are bigger then illegal aliens such as curing cancer or any fatal disease, ..."

You are not going to be able to focus on that with the projected growth rate in the US caused by illegal aliens. It will all go into as it does now into birthing babies. BABBOY is another clueless one.

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ASBESTOS 7 years, 3 months ago

"I mean good grief, when my last child was born, I spent nearly 2,000 out of pocket and I had insurance, yet my pediatrician sister-in-law tells me that illegals can march right in and have babies for free and they haven't paid a dime in taxes."

80% of the babies born in "border towns" with Mexico are unwed illegal aliens. They do this for an Anchor baby, and because in Mexico they have to pay the fee up front. Pretty soon we will all be paying this "upfront" as they are starting to outnumber us.

That is one thing that the illegal alien supporters do not want to understand. It is not the illegal aliens in the country currently, it is the population boom as these 20,000,000 to 30,000,000 start procreating at the rate of 3-4 kids per pair. YES, that is the problem, an increase in the next ten years of 100,000,000 in the United States population! one quarter of our population will be from this ilk, and will be one quarter of the vote, predominately poor, and needing services, and on the lowest end of tax contributions for thier services.

That is the scary part, going from 300,000,000 to 400,000,000 in a decade. We will reach 1,000,000,000 in 35 years tops. That is as much as in CHINA! Scream all you want about "Global Warming, women's rights, and all the other left wing stuff you support" because it wilbe overrun with third world sensibilities, and I would not want to be a woman or have a daugheter in that future in the United States.

I do not understand that someone that supports the Global Warming and the math and science involved, does not recognise the math in the illegal alien numbers.

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BABBOY 7 years, 3 months ago

In answering the question, in American, all human beings are treated equally. Read your constitution and you will find it is the law of the land. Obviously, they must be treated equally or this is not America. In Nazi Germany such were distinctions are made about people, not America.

The immigration issue is separate and if they are here illegally then of course that must be addressed with proper due process with whatever penalties apply. Treating them equally for separate crimes does not mean they should not be deported or punished for the crime in itself of being here illegally.

Of course, a lot of people get all queasy about illegal aliens. Thus, they skate the equality questions and just focus on getting rid of the illegal alien as if they are some sub human form of being. I think that a better process should exist to allow immigrants to come here and work on a legal basis. I can assure you I do not want to work the jobs they are working and they perform hard work that others will not. I keep thinking about the statement on the Statute of Liberty about inviting people to come here and work and we as a nation get stronger (it is too early to look it up and quote it fully). That is statement is becoming a fiction by those who are threatened by no reason other then their own inability to compete in an open market.

I can think of numerous other problems which are bigger then illegal aliens such as curing cancer or any fatal disease, the war in Iraq and correcting its current doomed policy, finding and killing Osama Bin Laden and any other of his following, electing a government that actually works for the people and fixing the economy are examples of way bigger issues.

But, it seems that illegal aliens, gay marriage, and evolution are the only issues anyone gives a crap about.

I do however find the idea gladiatorial matches extremely amusing. I am not an illegal alien but go ahead and sign me up.

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Larry 7 years, 3 months ago

Take em in, feed them, bath them, give them free medical care, find them a part time job so that they can make some spending money while the American tax payers provide them with a free college education. Isn't that what America is about?

I mean good grief, when my last child was born, I spent nearly 2,000 out of pocket and I had insurance, yet my pediatrician sister-in-law tells me that illegals can march right in and have babies for free and they haven't paid a dime in taxes.

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ASBESTOS 7 years, 3 months ago

"There is no evidence to indicate that illegals on probation are any less likely to serve probation without problem."

Yes there is. THe CAIR research and the PEW research firms did a study on just this. Criminal aliens know that all they have to do is post bail or go on probation and they are "free". They just get another forged and fradulently gained identity and then they move on. Hempbur, you are clueless on illegal aliens.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"What's their major crime?"

Entering the country without permission and entering illegally. Then to work they have to commit another crime such ad forging identity or stealing someones elses. Those are both felonies. Now they are here, and any other illegal act will get them for immediate deportation. WHAT THE HELL DO YOU THINK THEY ARE GOING TO DO??? THEY ARE GOING TO RUN! That is what they are doing anyway, they are "runing away" from Mexico or some other country. Why woul you expect them NOT to RUN???

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"Illegals pay their traffic court costs and fines at a higher percentage and in cash. "

NOt if they never show up.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

"They don't have ID's so they pay in cash because they don't have check accounts. "

Oh that is NOT true, go to Bank of America, and all their banking information is in spanish. The Bank of America ILLEGALLY caters to illegals by helping them get loans and checking accounts with KNOWINGLY FALSIFIED documents. Why do you think all over the southern US Banks are hiring bilingual loan managers for house and car loans at twice the rate they are hiring english only loan officers? Banks are "aiding and abetting" illegal aliens and crime.

You hepburn have NO understanding os what you are posting. COMPLETELY CLUELESS with a far left wing bent on "OPEN BORDERS".

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small_fish_in_small_pond 7 years, 3 months ago

No, but they shouldn't be here to begin with. Their crimes just means more tax dollars out of our pockets...

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Pilgrim 7 years, 3 months ago

Posted by Hepburn (anonymous) on January 20, 2007 at 7:57 a.m.

Haven't heard of anyone in town seeking sanctuary. And to those who say "what part of illegal don't you understant" I say "what part of costly don't you understand." If you want them all deported, promise to never go to a fast food place again, never eat at a restaurant, never build a new house or get it roofed, don't use various products produced in factories where they work, boycott beef, and accept unclean grocery, building or motel facilities. Illegals are here and sustain our economy.


Our economy was doing just fine before this illegal invasion began in ernest, and it will do just fine without the invaders in the future.

No papers? Buh bye!

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Shelley Bock 7 years, 3 months ago

This is funny. The proposal addresses issues which aren't a problem and the proposal is very costly.

There is no evidence to indicate that illegals on probation are any less likely to serve probation without problem. Once convicted, an illegal who wants to stay in the US will do everything possible to not draw attention and will follow the rules. Illegals know that if they don't serve probation, it will hurt them. If they get caught, they draw attention to themselves from immigration. Americans figure they can beat the system and don't have to comply with probation.

Illegals can't get driver's licenses because of state law. What's their major crime? Driving without a driver's license, by far!

Illegals pay their traffic court costs and fines at a higher percentage and in cash. Why? They don't have ID's so they pay in cash because they don't have check accounts. They want the matter resolved so they generally pay immediately. Legals pay with promises and don't always take it seriously.

Haven't heard of anyone in town seeking sanctuary. And to those who say "what part of illegal don't you understant" I say "what part of costly don't you understand." If you want them all deported, promise to never go to a fast food place again, never eat at a restaurant, never build a new house or get it roofed, don't use various products produced in factories where they work, boycott beef, and accept unclean grocery, building or motel facilities. Illegals are here and sustain our economy. It is not fair that they are paid less than fair wages, but they seem to live on less.

Finally, no probation means construction of more correctional facilities and for staffing. All those in favor of this plan pay a surtax for it. Back up your desires with your pocketbook.

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ASBESTOS 7 years, 3 months ago

I think they should be applied equally, with one exception>

The multiple aressted individual with multiple names and Social Security numbers and DL's. On average the incarcerated illegal alien is arrested 6-7 times before the alien is actually held. The "bail jumpers" is 6-7 times higher for an illegal alien. In Penn, a sicko illegal alien of 26 raped and murdered a 12 year old girl, this was after he was caught and deported for raping an 8 yeal old girl. THe judge released this alien out with a $5000 bond. THAT is what is "NOT EQUAL" about the illegal aliens, they will leave and not show up for court. The more serious the charge, the more likely they will flee.

American Citizens, legal immigrants and VISA holders are not EQUAL in this setting, because we have ties and have a consistent idnetity, therefore the flight is less likely. I think all the forged doucments and identity theft that goes along with the alien being in the country and the crime they are being held, those crimes too should be fully prosecuted.

It is not being "tougher" it is being more fair to those of us that are "LEGAL"!!!

ON the church or santuary cities issue. When states, cities, and towns apply for and recieve Federal Funding from the Department Homeland Security, are they not also expected to "follow all federal regulations" for hiring, enforcement. In esscense, the moeny is not there with "no strings". SO a city receiving DHS funding (of which ICE is a part) cannot become a "Sanctuary City" nor can they have laws that they cannot comply with immigration laws. If they are not complying or did not comply in the past, they would have to pay back the money.

Larger cities cannot be "Sanctuary cities" because they receive too much funding for the federal government, and that money comes with "strings", which nobody has pulled until now.

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Marion Lynn 7 years, 3 months ago

Crimes against persons; jail atime followed by deportation.

All other cirmes on any level; deportation.

In all cases, persona non grata should apply such that, should the miscreant return, immediate deportation would apply.

Thanks.

Marion.

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KS 7 years, 3 months ago

The article I read discussed doing away with probation or suspended sentences for illegals, becasue they cut and run. I believe they should answer to the illegal immigration matter. I guess I don't understand what part of "illegal" do they not understand? The punishment for an individual crime should be no different than for a legal resident. The problem that the bill is trying to address, I believe, is the illegal part which our Federal Governement seems to want to ignore.

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Kelly Powell 7 years, 3 months ago

offer them jail time or they can volunteer for the pay for view gladiatorial matches....if they survive they get citizenship, money and a devoted fan following.

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ljreader 7 years, 3 months ago

No. They should be permitted to to seek sanctuary in churches to avoid prosecution for crimes Americans would be arrested for.

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geekin_topekan 7 years, 3 months ago

No,because this is America we are above this. Or,we used to be,anyway.

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prospector 7 years, 3 months ago

No, all are equal under the law.

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