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Do you think mass protests and demonstrations are effective?

Asked at Massachusetts Street on May 2, 2006

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Photo of Aaron McClintock

“I feel they are effective. We are a democracy, and they give the general population a way to express themselves to their representatives. Without mass gatherings, it would show a lack of initiative and concern for the communities in which we live.”

Photo of Allen Tollefson

“No, I don’t. I think they turn off the people who turn the world.”

Photo of Crystal Williamson

“I think they can be. They certainly raise an eyebrow and get attention, so in that way they are effective. I think they can be the beginning in the process toward change.”

Photo of Nicole Sabatini

“People notice them while they’re there, but I don’t know if they have any long-term effects. It sounds cynical, but I think they might be the case.”

Comments

enochville 8 years, 7 months ago

Effectiveness can only be determined by looking at the relationship between what effect the mass protests were supposed to have and the effect they did have.

I am not entirely sure what the protesters hoped to accomplish and I think it is entirely too soon to tell whether they were effective in accomplishing whatever aims.

And anecdotal evidence isn't worth anything. People tend to see and remember what they wanted to see or remember. The results of the protest would have to be measured by laws passed, wages earned, or some other hard data, or by public opinion surveys etc.

Aileen Dingus 8 years, 7 months ago

I believe that protests and demonstrations have the possibility to effect change. (affect? I can never remember which ones to use) I think the demonstrations for civil rights made a huge difference and pushed the civil rights movement ahead.

However, I'm with enochville on this one. What exactly was the point of the protests and demonstrations yesterday? That immigrants are important to the US? Nobody was ever debating that, at least not to my knowledge.

Linda Aikins 8 years, 7 months ago

Dazie, you spelled it the right way! Nice job!

sgtwolverine 8 years, 7 months ago

Protests have little worthwhile effect if all the participants do is protest. It's easy to point out what's wrong, but that alone doesn't get anybody anywhere.

As far as yesterday's protests ... what did they want again?

Sigmund 8 years, 7 months ago

They distract me while I drive, they should be banned!

sunflower_sue 8 years, 7 months ago

I'm going to protest getting 2 ?s of the day. Why are we getting 2 ?s ??? I'm also going to protest mornings. No one should have to deal with fighting children this early in the morning. I'm getting out my fly-swatter and I'm taking them to school where they belong. Maybe I'll stop by the Orange Julius on my way home. (They've already had their pop-tarts.)

Staci Dark Simpson 8 years, 7 months ago

THe honk for hemp people are far more interesting!! The rules to get in the US are simple, follow them!!

neopolss 8 years, 7 months ago

You can't change the mind of a hater. They have no fascts to back up their claims, they don't care for reasons, they simply want them gone. The haters aren't listening, and they're too hard-headed to see how this country would be taking a better direction by welcoming instead of chastising. Land of oppurtunity - only if you have papers.

This hateful, xenophobic, cynical, negative attitude needs to change. The left, the right, need to be tossed. Wing extremists are creating the mindsets, and erroding our ability to DISCUSS and solve issues like gentlemen. Instead we find ourselves taking sides like a baseball game. It's ridiculous, and worst of all, it does not benefit us in any way.

RonBurgandy 8 years, 7 months ago

They can be, but mostly I don't notice them.

horrific_changeling 8 years, 7 months ago

I protest the 2nd question, let's go back to the first.

Liberty 8 years, 7 months ago

It sounds like the illegal aliens that were protesting were after better wages and wanted their illegal activity to be overlooked.

These people are not so different than the people of this country in wages. The way things are supposed to work in the USA: If a job is not filled, the wage goes up until someone can make a living doing that job. If people can't make a decent profit working a position, the wages have to go up until it pays well enough to pay a fair wage to the employee in exchange for the work performed. It is not a case that the people of this country will not work certain jobs. It is a fair wage issue. The powers that be want a slave work force for corporations to exploit.

GreenEyedBlues 8 years, 7 months ago

Protests/demonstrations have more visibility. 'Letters to the Editor' simply aren't enough.

Among their myriad functions, the immigrant demonstrations were a way to show America how much it really needs them.

The most effective way to get the attention of people who refuse to listen: put the slightest dent in their pocketbook.

Why? Americans aren't readers. We're buyers.

horrific_changeling 8 years, 7 months ago

hitme: that was a pretty funny answer to the first question for today! Roundabout standoffs. Good one!

(I guess they were having an argument down at LJW about who's question was going to make it on the paper today? So we got both?)

Sue, sorry you're in a bad mood today. I guess hubby's sounding too much like paladin gave you bad dreams?

Ceallach 8 years, 7 months ago

If their goal was to irritate all those who could not take the day off because their tax payments are needed to support the growing number of illegals in this country, then, yes, I would say they accomplished their goal.

neo, this country has been very welcoming -- in fact amnesty has been extended on a grand scale in the past. However, that seems to have encouraged people to violate our borders and our laws. Mexican nationals seeking a better life for themselves and their families are not the only people coming across the border. Illegals need to be identified, and a program set up to guide those with honest intentions toward legal status. Any who do have jobs, papers or other identification that verifies their current status, and demonstrates their intention to be part of America and not just parasites on our society, should be processed and allowed to stay. Those without should be deported.

The unemployment rate in this country is low, which I think proves that there is definitely a place for immigrants who want to come to the US. However, they should follow the same rules and regulations required of the millions of immigrants who came before them (including a young educator from Ireland named John Kelley, my g-g-grandfather:).

Mine is not a position of hate, it is a response to a very serious security problem along the US - Mexico border, and the financial drain on the US economy.

Thorny_Ramathorn 8 years, 7 months ago

Neo, i couldn't agree more. Also, there are many people who like to speak out about this topic that don't have a clue what they are talking about. As someone who is closer to the inside than most, I can say that for those who do try to do everything the legal way they are no better off sometimes that those who are here illegally. The Citizenship and Immigration Services is one of the most antiquated and innefficient bureaucratic agencies in our country.

One example: Someone who is legal, a permanent resident, is required to renew their Permanent Resident Card (green card) every 10 years so that the picture on it gets updated. The RENEWAL of these cards takes up to and over 1 year to be processed. Its ridiculous. The wait times to actually get the first green card is much, much longer for most people. I've always thought that if you repair the agency, then we could be stricter at the border since it would no longer be an incentive for people to do it outside of the law. But trying to the change the way of a street level bureaucrat...well it wouldn't be worth trying.

Yes Ceallach, amnesty has been granted in the past, but not since Regan has it been an all inclusive law. Clinton's version was very, very specific to those who had family already here at citizens. As for the them following the same rules and regulations that the immigrants had to follow before them...I'm pretty sure all that mine had to do was get on a boat from England. No paperwork was required for them once they hit the shores of the East coast.

Liberty 8 years, 7 months ago

Quote from Ceallach:

...it is a response to a very serious security problem along the US - Mexico border, and the financial drain on the US economy.

I agree with you that it is a financial drain on the US economy and a security issue because a sudden large work force makes fewer jobs available for the people of this country and drives down wages of other jobs as well, because everyone in the USA has to move to other jobs to be employed, forcing wages down in formerly higher paying jobs. You can see this happening because of heavy unemployment in the US that the "unemployment rate" (which is a very manipulated number) does not reflect. This 'unemployment rate' only counts those drawing unemployment benefits. It also assumes that when those benefits run out that the person is re-employed and they stop tracking them and they drop off the radar and are assumed to be re-employed when they are not.

Outsourcing of tech jobs and soon engineering jobs, moving of whole factories to India and China are destroying the middle class in this country. This is not tracked in the unemployment rate. Jobs that used to pay $15-$25 per hr. are reduced to $9-$12 per hr or just don't exist any more. Both husband and wife are forced to work in many cases to try to maintain their lifestyle which is sliding away rapidly. The buying power of the dollar has fallen 50% or more. This has not been an issue in the past, because we had a manufacturing base, however since this country does little manufacturing, they must import these goods with a weak dollar which causes prices to rise dramatically. The federal reserve can not stop this inflation with higher interest rates because it is not due to an overheated economy, but a loss of buying power abroad due to weak currency in an import situation. That is why gas is so high because you must pay to import it with a dollar that has lost half of it's value. (Gas has about doubled). Gold is about $660 an ounce. The influx of illegal aliens compounds these problems and multiplies them, resulting in the destruction of the middle class wages of the USA. This creates a large slave labor pool for corporations to exploit.

bankboy119 8 years, 7 months ago

"I'm pretty sure all that mine had to do was get on a boat from England. No paperwork was required for them once they hit the shores of the East coast."

The laws have changed since then too. It is ILLEGAL. Why is that law okay to break? I don't want to pay taxes but I still have to. Why? Because it's the law. I have to go the speed limit. Why? Because it's the law. These criminals are breaking the law and should be punished. If the government bows to this, what will they bow to next? This is a very quick way to show how ineffective the government has become.

Thorny_Ramathorn 8 years, 7 months ago

2004 -- 3 employers were fined for hiring undocumented workers. Not just in Lawrence, not just in Kansas, but the entire COUNTRY. This has been a law for a while, but the way that ICE or CIS decided to enforce sends a mixed message. If its a law, enforce it. If it is not being enforced, what's the point?

Ceallach 8 years, 7 months ago

JPT, if I remember right, the Nam protests were dominated by legal American citizens, not by individuals who were here illegally and demanding citizenship rights.

Apples and oranges.

The Irish are no strangers to protest movements. After being LEGALLY processed through Ellis Island, many were met by store windows with signs that read, "Help Wanted, No Irish Need Apply." Therefore, demonstrating the tremendous control over their tempers, for which the Irish are well known, they broke the windows and tore up the signs. Then they proceeded to do the work available to them and work their way up. Now the Irish are a well loved part of New York City (at least on St. Patty's Day :) Point being, they came in legally before protesting to gain their rights.

sunflower_sue 8 years, 7 months ago

OMB, Best answer today!

Horrific, got the kiddies to school, got my morning walk in, and I'm all better now. The hubby didn't break out the "shining armor" last night so I had no nightmares of driving headfirst into poles, ponds, or anything. All's good. (I'm just always grumpy if I don't get my 9 hours.) :) Now I'm going to go eat bon bons and sit on the couch. Ha ha aha ha hah aaaa.........

sunflower_sue 8 years, 7 months ago

Has anyone else seen the story on the man in KC who is being deported back to Honduras next week? The story is that he has been here for 20+ years and now has a wife and kiddies. He has paid taxes, been at his current job for 10 years, etc. The reason he is not granted citizenship is that he was in some pretty bad trouble (stealing a car, drugs...) when he first got here. Now, I really feel horrible for him and his family, but this whole gut wrenching tale wouldn't even be being told if the U.S. would have dealt with him 20 years ago. Shame on the U.S. for not dealing with him in a timely matter and shame on the U.S. for not seeing him for what he seems to be today...a reformed and upstanding "citizen wannabe." We need better laws! We need better ways of identifying illegals early on so that they don't start out on the wrong foot.

I'll be celebrating "Seis de Mayo" this year. My way of embracing the culture and my own little protest as well. Catch 22. Now I'm going to go enjoy this beautiful day before the rains come again.

gphawk89 8 years, 7 months ago

No. Has anyone noticed that it's always the same few-dozen people protesting everything, no matter what the issue is? They're protesting just for the sake of protesting and drawing attention to themselves (rather than the issue at hand) - it's hard to take them seriously. OK, maybe in this case there were some extra folks (immigrants) out there that don't normally protest, but I bet the usual core group of "career protesters" was doing their thing as well.

bankboy119 8 years, 7 months ago

SS,

On another note, do you realize that by doing the protests on May 1 they were also paying tribute to Stalin and Mao?

OldEnuf2BYurDad 8 years, 7 months ago

I think the key is "mass demonstration". Three hippies holding "Honk for Hemp" signs has done NOTHING in 20 years.

sunflower_sue 8 years, 7 months ago

bankboy, maybe I missed something, but why was your last comment directed towards me?

Ceallach 8 years, 7 months ago

I can understand that one, ss. If I even see your name I immediately think RED :):)

beatrice 8 years, 7 months ago

Some are effective, others aren't. Bus boycotts in Alabama - effective; anarchists stopping traffic for a little while because they don't like the President - ineffective. Whether the current demonstrations are effective or not isn't yet clear, but it sure has people talking about the situation, including Congress and the President. Bush is talking about "guest worker" status for the present illegals. Would this have happened without the demonstrations? Probably not, so they have been effective on some initial level.

Also, the first demonstration was effective in teaching the illegals that we don't appreciate the waving of another country's flag within our borders.

Marion: gosh, that anti-liberal quote -- ooh, scathing. Here is a quote I think of just about every time I skip past your posts:

"His lack of education is more than compensated for by his keenly developed moral bankruptcy." Woody Allen

Ceallach 8 years, 7 months ago

bea, was the phrase in quotes by Woody Allen or about Woody Allen? :)

If it is about him, I think it's untrue. Woody is both educated and morally bankrupt :-\

sunflower_sue 8 years, 7 months ago

Ceal, that's ok. I saw my first hummingbird of the season today. No one can kill my joy. (I've already boiled some nice sugar-water for the happy little critters.) :oD

p.s. no RED on this one. She was female.

Grundoon Luna 8 years, 7 months ago

Bullcrap, B-boy! May Day is celebrated all over the world, and by lots of people who don't give a rat's hiney about Stalin. It's just not celebrated by most of the US and probably because of the irrational communist connection (I swear!!! Neo-McCarthyism is alive and well and very present on this board!) AND pior to the burning times and the oppression of our Northern Euro ancestors by the Christians (see King Olaf who murdered half of Norway to get the other half to convert!) for centuries this day is known as Beltane. A holiday I and other Wiccans and pagans celebrate as part of our faith.

Truly, protesting is a numbers game. 3 dudes honking for hemp doesn't do much, but thousands and thousands of people demonstrating often starts to gain steam (see Nam protests). We haven't seen the last of this, and I bet we start seeing more war protesters too. Damn right it can be effective, so long as enough people are fed up!

As I have said before, enforce the laws by going after the people that hire these folks!! They wouldn't come here unless they knew they could get work. If work wasn't so assured they would likely plan and attempt come come here legally if they still had the desire.

BTW, Irish and Chinese are only second and third to Latinos when it comes to illegals. So don't push all this illegal stuff on one group. And many of those protesting were legal immigrants and from what I saw in the news there were a whole lot from "white" countries protesting too.

I agree with Marion, for one. Whoda thunk it?

Macon, left a mesage for you on OTS n the 30th. glad to see you are reinforing my point today!

Thanks for the props the other day Enochville!

Confrontation 8 years, 7 months ago

I think the real issue here is "Why have young white boys stopped cutting their hair?"

sunflower_sue 8 years, 7 months ago

Confrontation. Good question. This can only lead to ear piercings, wearing blue jeans, and listening to rock-n-roll! What is this country coming to?

acg 8 years, 7 months ago

Grab your malleous malifaricum boys, A_A is a Wiccan! Surely you jest, A_A. In this day and age of conservative bible thumping zealots and poor misinformed sheeple, do you really have the cajones to stand up and protest yourself not of a Christian faith? I bow to your pluck, dear, as many would not be so brave. LOL. To quote our friend Leonardo "Blinding ignorance does mislead us. O, wretched mortals, open your eyes!"

As to the ? of the day, I think back to what my supervisor said yesterday when he came into the office after a late lunch "you know with all this damned protesting and marching, it's getting really freakin' hard to get a good sopapia around here". You bet it's going to impact us, it's already started.

beatrice 8 years, 7 months ago

Confrontation: "Why have young white boys stopped cutting their hair?" Because clean-cut white kids would look silly protesting the draft. They are just preparing now for the inevitable.

Ceallach 8 years, 7 months ago

Well, the suspense if finally over. I knew it was just a matter of time until the evil Christians were brought into the posts. I thought Wiccans did not have a polarized concept of good and evil -- seems an exception has been made for Christianity. Many horrific things were done in the name of Christ, but not by the guidance of Christ. Since the true definition of a Christian is one who follows the teachings of Christ, those who commit/committed such atrocities use/used His name in vain. That distinction is seldom recognized.

There is more than enough evil to go around in this old world and vile acts have been committed by people calling themselves Wiccan, Muslim, this ism, that ism -- pick a group.

sgtwolverine 8 years, 7 months ago

I think right now the clean-cut white kids protesting the draft live in Houston, and they're mad that the Texans didn't draft Reggie Bush.

Ceallach 8 years, 7 months ago

I'll have to take my marbles and go home if all y'all pick on Christians AND Texas :)

acg 8 years, 7 months ago

But they're such easy groups to pick on ceallach, for totally obvious reasons. How is one supposed to contain oneself?

sgtwolverine 8 years, 7 months ago

Hey, I'm not really picking on Texas. The Lions are being criticized for passing on Matt Leinart, so it's not so different up here.

It's okay, though, because I don't think the Lions were wrong to pass on Leinart. I also don't think Bush was such a certain franchise player, either. But maybe I'm just being contrary.

Grundoon Luna 8 years, 7 months ago

acg, if you cared to review my previous posts, you would see I have mustered the cajones to profess my faith many times. As an American and I have the right to practice any faith I chose. I know there are those out there that ignorantly profess that we are a Christian nation and that Christianity should be everyone's religion, but that is not the intent of the constitution. Freedom of religion means ANY religion. During the writting of the consistution Thomas Jefferson said, "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there is no god or that there are twenty gods. It neither picks my pocket, nor breaks my leg." It was a deliberate act to not make the United States a theocracy. The violence of the crusades, the witch hunts, burning times, the Protestant reformation, etc. taught them that people must be free to follow the divine as they see fit.

Ceal, aren't you getting a little defensive? The book acg referenced should offer you some insight as to just how evil many Christians became. Talk about getting mesed up behind a mesage! I do not dispute that other groups have committed heinous crimes against humanity, but thieir systematic brutality was second to none.

Ceallach 8 years, 7 months ago

acg, some other groups are easy targets as well, just isn't PC to dis them, and doing so would not be Christlike :)

acg 8 years, 7 months ago

touche ceallach, but since I've never professed myself to be a Christian, I'm okay with it. heheee ; )

Grundoon Luna 8 years, 7 months ago

Are the Texas Jew Boys going with Kinky to the state house and sing "Sold American?"

PC Schmee Cee . . . Ceal, should history be ignored just because you don't like what it says. Kinds of revisionist of you, I think. That's like the German's getting all riled up when the Holocaust is mentioned. What are people to do? OK, 12 million people, half of them Jews, weren't killed to cleanse the Earth of the inferior. If what happened to the pagan peoples of Europe were to happen today, the Christians responsible would be accused of genocide and brought up on charges of crimes against humanity.

BTW, I do recognize that Christians do not have a monopoly on ill concieved religious endeavors.

and one more thing . . . It must be remembered that Stalin beat Hitler with 22 million, but his killing was more equal opportunity.

kcwarpony 8 years, 7 months ago

I follow the traditional ways of my culture and I'm not Christian so you can call me pagan too. I have nothing against most Christians, only those who raise their bibles over my head and take aim.

As for protesting, it can be effective if done properly. A protest should be about attracting the attention of those you wish to educate about an issue and letting the powers that be know that you think they have some rethinking to do. It always helps to have the facts and right on your side. Shouting and yelling at people in angry and trying to shut things down is more civil disobedience and should be used as a last resort, if used at all. The illegal immigrants didn't seem to be educating anyone about anything of real substance and they do not have right on their side, being illegal. It was a waste of time and only adds to the problem.

Ceallach 8 years, 7 months ago

Azure, being a nut about history, I am aware of the many evil deeds done in the name of God. My point is that this is not uncommon in any religion. People have a larger target with Christianity due in part to the number of people who wear the label. However, if I am sick, and repeatedly state that I have mumps, when in fact I have measles, it is not mumps that I will spead, it is measles. When people claim they are following the dictates of a good and loving God, yet their deeds are evil, they are not following God at all. They are following the evil they have embraced to accomplish their goals, and it is evil they spread.

Anyone can take the name, it's following Him that makes a difference in one's actions in life and reactions to life.

Ceallach 8 years, 7 months ago

acg, good point! I know it is hard to believe, but on many occasions just keeping my mouth shut is the hardest thing I do all day :) and alas, sometimes I fall short of my goal.

I will try not to smile too broadly when you are giving someone . . . oh well, you know!

beatrice 8 years, 7 months ago

sgtw: LOL! Texans not picking someone named Bush! I didn't even know that was allowed there.

Ceallach 8 years, 7 months ago

Come on now, Azure - I'm not sure who peeeeed in your corn flakes - but it wasn't me! I have neither defended nor denied what was done. How did you get that impression? I do get a little weary of only discussing what was previously done by one group, professed Christians. Surely history is more comprehensive than that.

Grundoon Luna 8 years, 7 months ago

True, Ceal. Extremist Muslims (not all Muslims!) are demonstrating your point beautifully these days. I do disagree with why Christians have become such a target. It's not the numbers, but what a number of very vocal ones are doing. Keeping church and state separtate must continue, but there are those that wish to bring prayer back in schools, in spite of the fact that the population is quite diverse, when accountbility of the administration, teachers, parents and students is what is really necesary. When you have zealots going around saying God smote Ariel Sharon or that God destroyed New Orleans because it was a moden day Sodom and Germorah, or that the dinosaures ran the Earth with Adam and Eve, but were really put here by the devil, or that evolution is not a valid theory (They might as well say there is no gravity or that the Sun revolves around the Earth), or that Christians are being oppressed in this country while they are, in fact, running most things, then they make themsleves an easy target. Resistance is not oppression, and if one doesn't want to be a target they should get off the firing range.

beatrice 8 years, 7 months ago

As long as teachers continue to give exams, there will always be prayer in school.

Grundoon Luna 8 years, 7 months ago

Have I not said, several times already, that I understand that other religions have committed atrocities in the name of God. Yes, people are brutal. Atrocities have been committed by all religions and for reasons other than religion. I just kinda feel like my backs being peed and I'm told that it's raining when it is esentailly said it's not PC to criticise other religions, but Christianity is open season. I'll try to remember that the next time I'm told I'll burn in Hell (by someone who I am sure is, as you stated Ceal, not being Christlike). In my first post of the day I spoke of a particular era and how a Holy day has managed to survive in spite of attempts to eliminate the, if you will, culture. Then came, "Oh, here comes the Christian bashing again." It's not like I'm pullng stuff out of my hind end and that it didn't happen! My intent was to address a specific time and not a liteny of all atrocities of the world.

Ceallach 8 years, 7 months ago

AA, I was cruising along pretty well until I reached the last sentence!!! Please say that wasn't for me? What does that even mean?

Liberty 8 years, 7 months ago

Azure,

It is not the Church influence being in the government that is the problem. It is when the State tries to control the Church and other religious organizations with money or laws and have it carry out it's wishes on the population with pressure from government that there is a problem. (Like 501c3 Churches) and faith based initative.

BorderRat 8 years, 7 months ago

I hope they keep up the protests. I've got the little American Flag concession. Sold more in one day than I sold all last year. No impact on the economy as far as I'm concerned. Also, got my order right at the fast food drive-thru on the first try.

Grundoon Luna 8 years, 7 months ago

That may be true, Bea, but it is the individual privately taking it upon himself and keeping it to himself, not the insitution saying, "OK, now it's time to pray."

I wish I could find that schtick about the guy who is writting an essay about physics an the existance of a divine being and there is a discussion about hell freezing over and souls moving in and out of hell, blah, blah, blah. It's hilarious and if someone finds a link to that, please post it.

Grundoon Luna 8 years, 7 months ago

The Christian bashing thing, or the liteny of atrocities thing?

Ceallach 8 years, 7 months ago

My 3:31 post was in reference to the 3:09 post. Just found it confusing.

Well, saving/defending/changing the world will just have to wait -- I have something much more important to do with my afternoon -- I'm off to get a haircut :):)

Grundoon Luna 8 years, 7 months ago

Ceal, in the very last sentance I was addressing something that someone else took issue with.

Ceallach 8 years, 7 months ago

Resistance is not oppression, and if one doesn't want to be a target they should get off the firing range. :- (I don't want to be a target!!)

Liberty 8 years, 7 months ago

Ceallach,

I've got news for you, a big bright target was painted on you by the devil when you decided to become a Christian. Get used to it.

"Greater is He that is inside of you, than he that is in the world."

ms_canada 8 years, 7 months ago

WOW - how the heck did this forum deteriorate so rapidly into a vitriolic name calling debate. Cease and desist, I say. As to May Day and protests. I think I can remember days past more than most here because I just may be the oldest poster. I remember when May Day was definitely a communist celebration of the working man. And was a much bigger deal in Europe and in Communist and Fascist countries. Hubby and I just happened to be in Madrid, Spain once on May 1 and experienced the action first hand with "balas de gomma" whizzing past our heads and no doorway to duck into as stores were all closed. I asked an hombre, "que pasa, senor?" His answer, the police were firing them to break up demonstrations by the communist youth Balas de gomma/rubber bullets.
We cautiously made our way back to the hotel an stayed there the rest of the day. Believe me, May 1 was taken very seriously in the old days about 25 years ago. ?? for s s what is the seis de mayo celebration? I have heard of cinco de mayo, but not seis de mayo.

Grundoon Luna 8 years, 7 months ago

Oh, the resistance thing . . . You really don't get my metaphore? . . . OK, lemme 'splain. The non-Christians that feel that the extreme Christians are trying to force their beliefs/way of life/etc. on others are being resistant in their reponses to the Christians. In reposne to that the Christian say "they are oppressing us," when it is probably the opposite that is true, ergo, resistance is not oppression. Add that with the list of thing I mentioned earlier that are coming out of the religious extremists - you should see the tracts my husband's aunt passes out - then the arena of discussion becomes the firing range. Kinda like an if-you-can't-take-the-heat sort of thing.

No, no, I would never shoot you Ms. Ceallie. No debate is worth such an act. And happy coiture! (sp) Hair care is very important. One never knows what can result from a bad hair day.

I, too, will depart and go to bed until the antibiotics kick in.

Liberty, while I would agree that what you said is a problem, that's only one of the problems.

Liberty 8 years, 7 months ago

Ms_C,

Hope that you don't live in this place in Canada. If you do, it might be a good time to go back to the USA for a short vacation... Perhaps they are warming up for a protest in Canada?

Winnipeg used for Urban Warfare Training http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/04/30/charging-bison060430.html

Grundoon Luna 8 years, 7 months ago

I wonder, as I think someone else did earlier, if yesterday's domonstration was planned for May Day due to it's meaning to the "proletariate." While I am pretty sure that modern day May Day celebrations have their roots in the Beltane holiday, Beltane is not a celebration of the proletariate, but a rite of spring and fertility. Some countries may have turned it in that direction, but that happens. I think that Marx missed the, well, uh, mark in some ways regarding capitalism and socialism I think he was spot on in others. Neither make a good government when mutually exclusive. A combination thereof is better. Military, education, healthcare, and welfare should be run by the goverment for the people. Heck, I have known women who could have gotten off welfare but had sickly kids and wouldn't have been able to afford health care if they went back to work (This was pre-Healthwave). Other than that, let free enterprise rule. Though some would hate to admit, we already have a combination of the two systems in this country. I am eager to see how Massachusetts' expansion of MassHealth to all works out.

Really, I'm outa here now.

sunflower_sue 8 years, 7 months ago

Ms_C, Cinco de Mayo falls on Friday this year and I have too much going on that day...so, I'll celebrate on "Seis de Mayo" instead. Just an excuse to get the neighbors together, eat lots of food, drink some drinks, and in general, make merriment.

A_A, since it's the feast of Beltane, shouldn't you be getting a jewel and going to the standing stones for the ritual dance? (Sorry, just couldn't resist the Diana Gabaldon connection.) If you've never read her, you simply must. She's such a great author! :) Besides, I know that there are good witches. Like, Glenda, the good witch of the north! :):)

ms_canada 8 years, 7 months ago

s s - thanks for the explanation. Gee can I join you. Liberty says I should head south to avoid the war games going on here. Actually Winnipeg is quite a way from here. I can bring my tortilla press and make a batch of them for the party. and a note to A A I can attest to s s recommendation of Diana Gabaldon and her books The Outlander series. A set of books that I read twice, they were that good. If you want to know why s s mentioned the standing stones and a jewel and Beltane, just ask and we would be happy to enlighten you. Am now re reading the Camulod Chronicles by Jack Whyte. I heartily recommend them also.

sunflower_sue 8 years, 7 months ago

Ms_C, C'mon down! You are always welcome. I'll save a plate for you in case you're a little late. Better make it in time for the sopapillas, though!

james bush 8 years, 7 months ago

Thanks posters... Sue, Canada, Ceal et al. Bout the time I think all is lost, You guys make things a little better. Thanks!!

Purell 8 years, 7 months ago

I've been boycotting OTS. What do you think, did it work?

Boy do I feel like I've contributed to the betterment of society.

ms_canada 8 years, 7 months ago

Yummy - ss I love sopaiapillas!

Good point JPT - the arrogant do not listen no matter how large the crowd of protestors.

OMB - I will take that under advisement. :o)

trinity 8 years, 7 months ago

purell, you've been purely missed. seriously! :)

mannn, all this ado. i really need to take up a cause, i think!

ahhh, fiddlee dee dee...i'll worry 'bout it tomorrow! ;)

ms_canada 8 years, 7 months ago

Jumpin' Jehosophat - I just saw something on CNN that made my blood boil. Something that just backs up what ceallach has been saying. Those who do not adhere to and follow the teachings of the Christ have absolutely no claim to the name Christian. Those people from the Westboro Baptist, sic, church who are going to the funerals of soldiers who died in Iraq, protesting with vile infective must have fallen asleep when their leader was reading the Bible passage where Jesus tells those who would stone the lady caught in adultery, I quote, " Let him who is without sin, cast the first stone." My Christian face is extremely red and I am irate at such behavior. They are not Christians in my book. Shame, shame on you. Oh and OMB, that is good news, especially since the first thing that I saw out my front window this am was some of the white, fluffy stuff falling from the grey sky.

kcwarpony 8 years, 7 months ago

ms_canada, Every member of Westboro Baptist is a Phelps family member, not a real church. I think they use the "church" for its non-profit/non-tax status. What some people won't do...

beatrice 8 years, 7 months ago

One more thing - A_A: if you are still reading any of this tonight - Ceallach isn't the enemy, nor should she be put in the situation of defending all Christian people. She is she, and that is okay by me, even if we don't always agree.
That sun_sue, on the other hand - a real commie, I tell ya. Gotta keep our eyes on that one.

kcwarpony 8 years, 7 months ago

opps! I forget about the photo. Please, my sincere apologies to the offended.

horrific_changeling 8 years, 7 months ago

s_s

Glenda wasn't quite the good witch you think she was! You need to read Wicked, by Geoffrey Maguire. Your whole way of thinking about it will change!

Magically! A MUST read for all of us in Oz. (We been so mislead all these years!)

Grundoon Luna 8 years, 7 months ago

Yeah, S_S, I should have been doing something. My group met on Sunday since we all work and couldn't arrange for an afternoon shindig on Monday, but I wasn't feeling well, have since gotten worse, and I missed the ritual and May Pole dance. I'm disappointed because Beltane is one of a few Sabbats we do in the daytime that the kids can participate in. The Esbats and Sabbats go on until too late at night usually. We had to cancel Ostara at the last minute because our High Priest was seriously ill, so we colored eggs at home which is fine. Well, I've been to them before and I will so again. I will have to take your and Ms._C's advice and check out what Diana Gabaldan has to say about Beltane.

Yes, I am a good witch. Those that practice Wicca should all, by definition, be good witches. If a wtich be bad, (s)he is really not practicing Wicca, but rather sorcery or ceremonical magic (maybe) or even Satanism - whose pratitioners I think are disgruntled Christians since Satan is a Judeo/Christian concept and their whole gig is about turning Christianity on it's head, a bit negative I think, though I am sure a Satanist would tell me I'm wrong.

We have the Wiccan Reade (an it harm none, do what ye will). We are not to do even somthing positive FOR someone without their knowledge and permission, much less against them. We also have the Law of Three, which dictates that what ever you put out there, be it positive or negative, you get back 3 fold. The Reade and the Law of Three should keep witches in check and on a good path, but as with any faith, there are manipulative creeps that go to extremes and want to screw around with people. Everybody's got their bad apples.

Extremism, bad! Moderation, good!

beatrice 8 years, 7 months ago

macon, I see that the Woody Allen quote I posted earlier applies to you as well.

Grundoon Luna 8 years, 7 months ago

A friend of mine went to see the play Wicked in New York and bought me a pin. I would like to read that!

Ms._C, you had not heard of Fred Phelps before? He is a hateful SOB!!!! He became an attorney after a dispute about a water bill with the city of Topeka. He was disbarred from state courts for harassing a court reporter, later on he was disbarred from federal court. All 13 of his kids became attorneys too. Two refuse to speak to him, one went so far as to change their name. His whole thing is about homosexuality: protesting at parks where gay men frequent, then funerals of AIDS patients which included pediatric AIDS patients, now soldiers because, "their country supports homosexuality."

He thinks Lawrence is more hostile toward him that San Francisco. It made my day to see on the news coverage of Randy Shiltz's funeral in San Fran where mourners were chasing away the Westboro clan, which is made up of only his family, their spouses and children. He's a piece of work!! Should God exist as Fred understands him, Freddy is going to burn, burn, burn . . . .

hottruckinmama 8 years, 7 months ago

mrs. c..fred and his bunch are a disgrace for the state of kansas. even the most liberal of us in this state recognize that he doesn't represent our more conservative friends and neighbors. the whole family is just nutty.

as to mass protests i said it last night and i'll say it again ....i sure think it would be worth a try when it comes to these gas prices. if we threaten to throw enough politicains out of office, stop buying, stop going to work, and cause enough businesses to have shut for a day or 2 i bet someone in washington would think of something they could do.

horrific_changeling 8 years, 7 months ago

A friend lives in SF (from Lawrence) and was there when that happened. He said, "Man, those gays in SF didn't put up with Phelps for one second like they do around here. They took off after him, and ol Freddy was runnin' for his life!" He was laughing so hard as he told me this. It was a good story to hear.

ms_canada 8 years, 7 months ago

Thanks all those who set me straight on Fred Phelps and the Westboro group, I refuse to call it a church. Yes, I had heard of him and his gang of idiots but did not know it was the Westboro gang. I did not hear CNN mention the location of Westboro. Too bad there is not a law about people like that. But that' s freedom of speech for you. A A, I wish now that we had had more time to talk when I was in Lawrence. I would really like to hear more of Wicca. And I would not be one to criticize or condemn, I would just listen. I don't know any wiccans. I think I would find it interesting. I am going to send you a message via LJW about the books by Diana Gabaldon. check your email.

james bush 8 years, 7 months ago

CSPAN IS TELLING US NOW THAT (TV) WE ARE LOSING TO FUNDAMENTALIST ISLAMISTS ..............KISS YOUR HEADS GOODBYE!!!!!!!!!!!!

james bush 8 years, 7 months ago

What a bunch of arrogant bast_rds .......send the message ............vote 'em out of office!

james bush 8 years, 7 months ago

Our reps in DC are watching the water in the swamp rise and asking "should we drain or talk our way out "

Grundoon Luna 8 years, 7 months ago

LOL!!! I don't think they were in that friendly of a mood, JPT! In the clip I saw on the news, the funeral posse were looking MIGHTY PO'd and the Phelps clan had terror in their eyes. It was a sight to see! :-)

The Phelps clan are truly terrorists!! I was stopped at the light at Gage Park with a friend from Topeka, in her car, and saw their group spewing their hate. I started to roll down the window saying I wanted to taunt them some and she said, "Please, no. They have cameras and will get my plate number and come harrass me at my house." I thought she was kidding, but she was very serious. I guess she knows some people from her Catholic Church that had voiced their opinions to them and they started hasseling them. The city of Topeka needs to get a pair and deal with those folks.

They are totally wierd! There's a resteraunt in North Topeka they were picketing because the owner was involved with a group of ministers that were trying to reason with him to get him to stop picketing the funerals of pediatric AIDS victims. The picketing made them awfully hungry so they stopped, went in and bought lunch! Fred was asked by a reporter how he wold like it if people picketed them. He said, "Go ahead! We'll bake cookie for 'em! It's beautiful when people excerise the rights afforded them in the U.S. Constitution!"

I have met several of them. In the early 80's, this was before Fred got on his gay hating spree and before he was barred from federal court, they represented someone very close to me. Fred jr. said something really nasty to me a got a royal butt chewing from his client!

Dang! my posts have been lo-o-o-o-ong to-day!

ms_canada 8 years, 7 months ago

omb - I do indeed find that interesting. :o)

sunflower_sue 8 years, 7 months ago

Seriously, Glenda was not a good witch? Lemme guess: she was really just a blonde control freak? Ms_C, since you are also "of the north," do you know anything more about Glenda. Seems I have been led astray. Say it ain't so. I'll take your word on it, though. (Being "of the north" and all.)

A_A, If you get started on Diana Gabaldon, you'll be hooked! My girlfriend's and I actually took a "girls weekend" to Denver as an excuse to go to one of her book signings. She's that good.

RI,...and they all stink?

bankboy119 8 years, 7 months ago

ss,

Sorry I'm just now getting back to you, I left the office for the day and just decided to take one more look before I went to bed. Your 11 AM post just had dates in it so I was throwing in some reasoning behind the May 1 date.

AA,

If you would do some research to see who did much of the planning for the May 1 demonstrations you would find that many of them are socialistic. You should also do some research on what some of the signs had to say, about how awful GW is and how 12 million Republicans should be deported, to name two. I would say that May 1 was picked for a reason, and not because of the "freedoms" that some celebrate...unless you count communism and socialism freedoms.

badger 8 years, 7 months ago

Ms_C - depending on your criteria for knowing someone, you may possibly know a non-wiccan pagan. So long as you didn't have to, like, say, meet someone in person to consider them someone you know.

A little bird told me that...

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