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merrill (Anonymous) says…

What studies prove that concealed weapon laws actually deter crime? If this were a fact why would law enforcement consistently oppose such legislation?

Informed (Anonymous) says…

Heck yes, I agree with the legislature. Merrill, there are differing opinions within law enforcement over this issue. But of course each side only touts the figures that bolster its position.

KsjKC (Anonymous) says…

I will admit to having somewhat mixed feelings—Even so, this was a cool example of government in action and I really doubt it cost the Governor much political capital…

inmate (Anonymous) says…

many of the people around me already carry concealed weapons.

sgtwolverine (Anonymous) says…

A friend of mine claims his body is a weapon. When he wears clothes, does that make him a concealed weapon?

nudist (Anonymous) says…

I'm so excited…

militant (Anonymous) says…

If I were homeless, I'd definitely be carrying.

neopolss (Anonymous) says…

It seems that most of the witty retorts have been taken.

Early bird catches the worm … or one to the head.

sgtwolverine (Anonymous) says…

I think the serious retorts may come later. It seems like there's always some misguided soul who actually wants to answer the question.

Larry (Anonymous) says…

Merrill - do a search on google and you'll find articles both supporting concealed weapons and against. Question is - who completed the research?

My personal opinion is based on several interviews that I have seen with prison inmates who admitted that they are more reluctant to approach someone or even a house if there is a potential that the person or owner of the house has a weapon. Many convicted felons have stated that they are more fearful of a citizen who is carrying than a police officier. Who wouldn't? Police officiers have their hands tied.

I support the amendment. I don't plan to carry but believe I should have that right in the event that I'm some place where I feel uncomfortable.

sunflower_sue (Anonymous) says…

MD said last night at 11:58:
“And as an officer once told me, nothing is scarier than a terrified woman, shaking, pointing a weapon at you!”

Oh, MD, don't you know that nothing is scarier that a fat police officer with a gun? They can't chase you down but they can shoot the hole out of a do-nut at 50 yards!

I agree with concealed/carry. I also agree with cash and carry. I do not agree with Harry Carry, unless it would help prison overcrowding.

RonBurgandy (Anonymous) says…

Only as long as they can't figure out how to generate enough funding for education.

Informed (Anonymous) says…

Like Larry, I believe I have the right to protect myself. I plan to get a license, but will probably actually carry a weapon very, very few times, based on my perceived situational need.

Kam_Fong_as_Chin_Ho (Anonymous) says…

“What studies prove that concealed weapon laws actually deter crime?”
===========

According to the most recent data available from the FBI Uniform Crime Reports, states with RTC laws had significantly lower overall violent and firearm-related violent crime per capita rates than other states:

Violent crime rate — 22% lower Robbery rate — 36% lower
Firearm violent crime rate — 29% lower Firearm robbery rate — 38% lower
Homicide rate — 31% lower Aggravated assault rate — 14% lower
Firearm homicide rate — 38% lower Firearm aggravated assault rate— 19% lower
Handgun homicide rate — 41% lower

Florida`s homicide and handgun homicide rates had dropped 22% and29% since adopting RTC in 1987, even as national rates had risen 15% and 50%.

sunflower_sue (Anonymous) says…

Higgin's Dairy
Take the Ferrry
concealed/carry
I'm not wary.

Jim Carrey
Debrorah Harry
French terry
Now that's scary!

Where's our poet laureate OMB this morning?

The_Original_Bob (Anonymous) says…

Yes. I agree! Now I'm just trying to figure how I'm going to conceal my shotguns and rifle.

Inmate - Good answer.

GreenEyedBlues (Anonymous) says…

Informed,
What kind of situational needs would merit carrying a gun? One would assume that if a person felt unsure about their safety, they just wouldn't do whatever it is they plan to do. On the other hand, some in our society (ie criminals) don't demonstrate that kind of self-control, so I could see how wielding a firearm would gives one that sense of security.

Perhaps most people, myself included, have that generalized image of the South, where there's a gun for every man, woman, and child.

Kam_Fong_As_Chin_Ho,
I noticed that data you cited doesn't include suicide rates. If someone has access to a gun in a state of desperation, an easy out is just a trigger away. That's got to factor in somewhere.

The_Original_Bob (Anonymous) says…

“I noticed that data you cited doesn't include suicide rates. If someone has access to a gun in a state of desperation, an easy out is just a trigger away. That's got to factor in somewhere.”

Please explain to me how a concealed carry law would have any effect on suicide. CCL's have no bearing on access to weapons.

After reading these posts the last couple of days it seems like those against CCL biggest concern is that all of the sudden millions of guns will magically fall from the sky.

sgtwolverine (Anonymous) says…

TOB, perhaps you should acquire a second person to give you more room to conceal weapons.

sgtwolverine (Anonymous) says…

Guns falling from the sky? I hope your crazy Kansas weather patterns don't move up here to Michigan. Maybe I'll stay inside, just in case.

Anyway, I would add that it makes sense that suicide rates aren't included in crime statistics.

Moderateguy (Anonymous) says…

Lauren's comment is brilliant! What color is the sky in your world Lauren? Why hasn't anybody thought of that before?? You should go work for some think tank or somehthing.

None of the doom and gloom scenarios will happen. They haven't happened in the other states. Now, honest, law-abiding citizens can make a decision for themselves. What a concept.

The_Original_Bob (Anonymous) says…

OMB - The first Grulla I find is mine. After that I'll keep you mind.

Informed (Anonymous) says…

There can be a variety of reasons, GEB. And I've been there (and carried).

RonBurgandy (Anonymous) says…

My concern isn't that there are going to be guns everywhere (falling from the sky), it is that some person who hasn't had a criminal background and passes all the tests to acquire a permit, gets attacked in someway, doesn't think rationally, whips out their gun, tries to take care of business, shoots, misses, and hits someone else in the vicinity.

Training doesn't solve all the problems, people can have all the training in the world, but still act irrationally when it comes down to a life-threatening situation. My concern is accidents that can happen. Does everyone believe that every person that has passed cpr training can save someone when it is needed? I know it is a different situation, but when there is pressure like that on someone, not everyone thinks clearly.

Confrontation (Anonymous) says…

If you look at most members of the state legislature, do we really want them judging the mental health of others?

Easy_Does_It (Anonymous) says…

TOB – Concealing the gun from your self should lower the suicide rate?

topflight (Anonymous) says…

Great, now how many nuts will be packing guns at those crappy clubs like the Granasty and Felonies Last Call. Can you imagine being in there when someone thinks they hear a shot fired, every nut who can carry a gun will be pulling it out and aiming at the other guy. But, lets look at the bright side, let them take care of each other. Saves the police time and effort.

The_Original_Bob (Anonymous) says…

EDi - Ha. With me probably. I'm always losing my car keys in my coat pockets. I could see myself getting really depressed one day and wanting to just finish the deal but not being able to because I couldn't remember where I left my .38.

Moderateguy (Anonymous) says…

Topflight, if you would even bother to get some basic informaiton, you would know that it's still illegal for anybody to conceal a weapon in a bar. If you're going to have an irrational fear, at least try to base it on a little bit of reality.

rhd99 (Anonymous) says…

Okay, we now have concealed guns in our hands. Now, Legislature, pass the damn school funding bills!

topflight (Anonymous) says…

Hey, all. I know that it is illegal to carry in bars and right now it is illegal to have guns in the proximities of bars. But you are fools if you believe that people actually abide by that.
So you really think that each and everyone that goes in a bar is going to be pat down before he or she enters? NO. My point was, people will go to these clubs packing to protect themselves because they already know it is dangerous there. And they will be in violation and no one will know. Unitl someone is shot.
.
And no, i am not afraid

RonBurgandy (Anonymous) says…

topflight - well, if cops start going into bars to arrest drunk people, maybe they can give them a little pat down as well.

char (Anonymous) says…

“people will go to these clubs packing to protect themselves because they already know it is dangerous there. And they will be in violation and no one will know. Unitl someone is shot.”

That's what's going on right now, isn't it? So how is the concealed carry going to change that? If those people have carried without a permit until now, what makes you think they'll bother to get a permit now that it's legal?

I grew up in Wyoming. My dad has his concealed carry permit. My parents also taught me how to handle a gun and how to use it responsibly.

sgtwolverine (Anonymous) says…

So, topflight, you're concerned about the new law because of people who disregard the law?

RonBurgandy (Anonymous) says…

Char - are you saying since you know how to handle a gun, then every person who gets a permit knows how to use them responsibly?

The_Original_Bob (Anonymous) says…

Sliding down the slope….

rhd99 (Anonymous) says…

As usual, with their extremist ways the legislature failed to provide safeguards, meaning, they don't have a system for tracking unregistered gun owners, who by the way, will not abide by this law, & if they shoot someone, bye bye. Off to jail. If this tracking system was in place originally, Kansas would not be totally safe, but it would place THUGS who commit crimes behind bars, where they belong!

Moderateguy (Anonymous) says…

TF,

I absolutely do believe that people are breaking the law and concealing weapons in places like Last Call etc.. right now and will continue to do so.

The only difference is now, a law-abiding citizen has the ability to legally protect themselves from these individuals (who have always been around) when they leave the bar.

char (Anonymous) says…

“Posted by RonBurgandy (anonymous) on March 24, 2006 at 9:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Char - are you saying since you know how to handle a gun, then every person who gets a permit knows how to use them responsibly?”

No, I'm saying that education is missing in our system. I'm saying that my parents were responsible enough to make sure their kids didn't use guns as play toys and accidentally shoot their friends.

I will own a gun someday. I will get my concealed carry permit. I will also make sure I know how to properly use and care for my gun.

No matter what you do, people are going to use guns irresponsibly. Even making guns illegal wouldn't stop that, because we all know there are ways to get them illegally. Educate yourself and your family and friends. Do your part, and don't stop me from doing mine.

The_Original_Bob (Anonymous) says…

Ron - I saw that yesterday. Bizarre. They even arrested guests in a hotel bar that didn't even have a car.

Moderateguy (Anonymous) says…

rhd99, how exactly are you supposed to track an unregistered gun owner? Time machines? Psychics? Little chips in everyone's brain?

sunflower_sue (Anonymous) says…

Do people seriously believe this law will make a difference in the suicide rate? My sis and I went to Cabela's last Friday and walked away with two guns that are perfectly able to do the job…no permit required. So what's the dif?

If you ever want a good laugh, try being female and get prompt service at the gun counter at Cabela's. I finally had to say something “slightly suggestive” to a male employee to grab his attention and then I had to convince him that I wasn't buying a gun to shoot my hubby with. What a hoot!

sunflower_sue (Anonymous) says…

Char, Amen, sister! My Mom did allow play guns growing up, but if she ever caught us pointing them at each other, forget about sitting down for the next week and a half! To quote my wise Mother: “Never point a weapon at someting that you don't intend to kill.”…even if said weapon was a plastic toy gun. I really don't know why parents buy toy guns for their kiddies and then let them run rampant with them. That's a huge problem!!!

char (Anonymous) says…

Sue, I had a similar problem at Cabela's. My friend and I were looking at handguns for her, and the guy at the counter treated us like idiots. I don't think anyone would have helped us if she hadn't say “Hey, when you get a minute, I'd like to look at a gun.”

kansas_prairieland (Anonymous) says…

Topflight,

So what you're saying is…….your biggest fear is that someday down the road, somewhere in Kansas (on a Friday night), some bar will be jam-packed with drunken patrons and someone will knock a glass off their table, it will hit the floor and make a loud noise…….and then, all of a sudden, in the blink of an eye, all of the drunken concealed pistol-packing people in the place will start shooting indiscriminately—at anything or anyone who moves??!! And there will be bullet holes everywhere??! In the ceiling? In the walls? In the floor? And then what? Dozens will die? Is that it? Is that what you're saying?!

Man! What wild west movie did you watch recently?
Were the Three Stooges in it?

Easy_Does_It (Anonymous) says…

TOB – your comment on not finding your .38 reminded me of a news article I read in the Topeka Paper when in High School. (a long time ago). A gal jumped off the Topeka Avenue bridge trying to killer herself, she landed in a foot of water and soft sand. She then walked out of the river and caught a cab to the hospital. I thought it was funny and sad. Classic.

kutwitch (Anonymous) says…

Kam_Fong_as_Chin_Ho should have mentioned that those numbers came not directly from FBI information but instead is word for word from the NRA website. No conflict of interest there. Even if those are correct numbers it is does not account for an increased police pressence in Flordia and other concealed weapons states or the overall drop in the major gang activity that was present in the late eighties and early ninties. Trying to prove your case with false analogies only makes your cause look desperate and uninformed.

Jayhawk226 (Anonymous) says…

Nothing sums up “redneck” more than the leading photograph—

—family and child in a gun store.

Hope that one goes into the baby album!

GreenEyedBlues (Anonymous) says…

My sentiments exactly, Jayhawk226.
Charming photo of the happy family at a firearms counter!
How very Norman Rockwell!

The_Original_Bob (Anonymous) says…

Or better known as Wal-Mart.

kutwitch (Anonymous) says…

Kansas_prairie land, or should I call you Kansas_fantasy land, shootings in clubs may be rare in cities like Lawrence but in Wichita and Kansas City shootings in night clubs are not uncommon at all. Within the last few years there was the problem in Wichita as well as throughout the country that every time the song Throw Your Sets Up was played somebody got shot. About five years ago a kid I went to grade school and middle school with shot five people inside of a Wichta night club after an altercation. A few month ago people opened fire on Wichita Police officers in Old Town, the bar district, for apparently no reason. The list goes on… It is for this very reason that in a lot of bars and clubs in Wichita men must have their shirts tucked in at all times and cannot wear baggy pants that can conceal guns. Wake up, this world and state are bigger than the small towns.

kansas_prairieland (Anonymous) says…

kutwitch,

So what does your story have to do with the soon-to-be cealed carry law?

kansas_prairieland (Anonymous) says…

…………the way that the law is written, I mean.

The_Original_Bob (Anonymous) says…

yeah, what Kansas_prarieland said.

Also, everything you mentioned happened prior to the CC law so I'm not sure what your point is in any event.

rhd99 (Anonymous) says…

Moderate, we track their credit history & we'll find out where they got the guns. Now, are you telling me that not tracking unregistered users, who are killers at some point, is smart? Not tracking unregistered people's purchases of guns, especially when they commit a crime is beyond comprehension & it's stupid, just like Senator WAGLE & her other extremist friends who wanted this frivolous piece of crap legislation. This legislature, except for Reps. Ballard & Davis of Lawrence is a sad joke!

sunflower_sue (Anonymous) says…

kutwitch, suppose your stories are all true. How many of those people do you suppose would actually be carrying LEGAL concealed weapons? Um…none? Your point, please?

char (Anonymous) says…

How are you going to know who the unregistered users are so that you can track their credit history? You don't know they own a gun illegally until they're suspected of using it illegally.

char (Anonymous) says…

Amendment of previous post: rhd99, you make it sound like you want to go after ALL unregistered users, which isn't possible. You're not going to know who is an unregistered user until they are suspected of committing a crime.

Liberty (Anonymous) says…

If the Kansas government was obeying the Constitution, they wouldn't even need to go there. The Constitution already says that government has no jurisdiction in this area since you have a right to bear arms already.

The_Original_Bob (Anonymous) says…

I don't know the numbers so forgive me for not quoting but a large number of guns used in crimes were:

1. Paid for in Cash
2. Had several owners.

Going back and tracking would be pointless and impossible.

I don't understand your second sentence, rhd99. Are you saying that all unregistered users will be killers? Or are you saying that killers should have to be registered to own a gun.

I understand and agree to some extent about the problems with criminals and guns. I just don't see how it relates to Conceal and Carry.

Moderateguy (Anonymous) says…

Here's a really wacky concept for you “Honk for Hemp”ers. I should be able to do almost anything as long as I'm not hurting someone or taking their stuff. When I hurt somebody, or take their stuff, I should go to jail. I have no problem with you sitting at home smoking a bowl. You're not hurting anybody. How exactly am I hurting someone by walking down the street or driving in my car with a weapon in my pocket? It's not a problem until I use it for something other than self-defense. If it wasn't for self-defense, I go to jail.

prospector (Anonymous) says…

Worried about getting mugged? I have never felt any sense of impending danger ar attack here. Except for Dr. Mericki, has there been a mugging/attack in town/county that anyone can sight?

The only exception I know of is the police dealing with 'That's my Dillon's' Simon(Robert). A couple of cops with the paddy wagon were loading him up this morning because he was lying next to Weavers. SAD

This law regulates law abiding citizens. It does not protect us.

kansas_prairieland (Anonymous) says…

TOB,

It doesn't relate to conceal and carry.

And that's where Topflight is being silly. Topflight thinks if our state has a conceal and carry law….it'll mean more dead bodies (in nightclubs or wherever)……..and that's ridiculous.

Moderateguy (Anonymous) says…

I started to reply to rhd99 again, but first checked out his/her previous comments. There's a definite pattern of logic deficiency. A plus Theta equals Pi.

prospector (Anonymous) says…

Watch where you point that thing. It might go off!

sunflower_sue (Anonymous) says…

c_v, Why you pickin' on me??? And why are you looking at other men's “weapons?”;)

rhd99 (Anonymous) says…

Ok, all of you who don't agree with me, YOU say this stupid piece of legislation makes Kansas safer, prove it!

kutwitch (Anonymous) says…

My post was not addressing the conceal carry law directly, I was simply responding to a post that didn't seem to think that guns are a big problem at clubs and bars in certain places. Personally I don't think this law is a good idea but I also don't think it will make much of a difference. I think that the people that were carrying guns before the law was passed will be mostly the same people carrying guns after it goes into effect. I don't think there will be a rush of new people running out to get guns, though there will be a few.

rhd99 (Anonymous) says…

Thank you, kutwitch, that helps, but for some who shot down my argument entirely, I challenge you to show me proof that Kansas will be safer because of this piece of CRAP legislation. Also, I challenge you to show me one piece of statistical analysis done nationwide with regard to conceal carry that has dropped our overall crime rate here in the United States.

kcwarpony (Anonymous) says…

Yes, but only if bullets are made illegal.

Hey, sun_sue, thanks for thinking of me yesterday. Hope your kidlet is doing well, this being the day after. I got all the work done. They told me I did great and how beautiful my teeth look and then when I was all nice and happy, just about ready to trot on out, they asked if I wanted to have my wisdom teeth removed!? I asked “Why? Is there a problem??’’ They said, “no”…thought brushing my teeth would be easier if I didn’t have to worry about reaching those back teeth!! I thought they were joking, they’re not…I told them the insurance was going to be running out soon…”Nevermind…”

MD, nope, I didn’t have any control. They had the female dentist work me over…not a darn thing I could do :)

sunflower_sue (Anonymous) says…

c_v, You really made me regret my decision not to become a sports reporter with locker room access!:*(

sgtwolverine (Anonymous) says…

rhd, with that demand I think you are under at least an equal obligation to demonstrate that this legislation will be harmful to Kansas. Its effects may end up being positive, innocuous or negative, but if you so firmly believe it will harm Kansas, then you should be able to show everyone why you believe it's such an egregious law.

sunflower_sue (Anonymous) says…

warpony, glad all went well. Couldn't they have asked you that whole wisdom tooth ? before yesterday? (Guess they've all had their “wisdom” teeth removed. *snark*) OK, even I thought that was bad!

rhd99 (Anonymous) says…

sgtwolverine, how does this new law help law enforcement protect us? Where does law enforcement play into this, since we're taking the law into our own hands?

Sigmund (Anonymous) says…

How many accidental shootings occur because of conceal carry laws? How many crimes will be avoided because of concealed carry? How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? What if its a really big pin? No one knows and frankly it doesn't matter. Criminals can and will carry concealed guns and the law abiding adults should have a right to defend themselves. If one women is able to prevent a rape and another is accidently shot and killed by someone legally carrying concealed, it will make no difference to my position.

rhd99 (Anonymous) says…

One more thing, sgtwolverine, the burden of proof starts with this legislature, not me. What information did they have that proves this law is safe for Kansas?

Moderateguy (Anonymous) says…

Hmmm. Great Britain with some if not the most restrictive handgun laws in the world, has one of the highest violent crime rates per capita in the world. (Way higher than the U.S.) Vermont doesn't even require a license to carry concealed. Where are all the “Dodge City” stories from that corner of the U.S.? Just look up Great Britain crime rate.

wonderhorse (Anonymous) says…

“Where does law enforcement play into this, since we're taking the law into our own hands?”

I guess I'll have to go back and reread the law. I missed the part where it said for us to take the law into our own hands.

crohan1978 (Anonymous) says…

The constitution says you have a right to own arms, but for some reason, when the constitution says this, all the libs are against it, but when it comes to supposed gay rights, you say the constitution protects them. So what, we just apply the constitution when it fits the argument? I'm confused?? Maybe some of you left wing crazies can explain it to me.

Please do not get me wrong, I am not for owning any kind of weapon, no assault weapons, etc. And yes, many studies have been done in places where the concealed gun law is in effect, and the crime rates have fallen. Cops obviously do not like them, because they believe it brings more risks to their job, because they have to assume everyone has a gun now. If the concealed gun law is enforced properly, there shouldn't be any serious issues. Proper background checks, licenses, etc are good enough

Multidisciplinary (Anonymous) says…

Day before yesterday someone had the 2003 (latest available) stats on here, that included suicides. Suicides are the highest, quite higher than murder. (If I get a chance I'll try to back track an find them for you.) I wasn't surprised. Another thing the same officer sue was quoting me about told me. Women always overestimate the deadliness of pills, and underestimate the deadliness of a weapon. If you're going to kill yourself, make sure it's final, awfully embarrassing to end up a half mess, or just fine.

C_V…take your camera phone with you next time! Just kidding :D

TOB…don't they saw the ends off those anymore? Maybe you could buy the jr variety. Those are good if you need to be sure you can reach the trigger from the other end and you have short arms.

I only caught part of Trigger Happy on IFC last night, I should probably see all of it before recommending it, but I think it made a lot of good points, very timely.

The bad part of this….more weapons in homes…children..I think of Barkley and Faria Clark”s most wonderful son. I met him once, and he was honestly the most impressive young man I've ever met.His going to a friend's house…in seconds, gone…such a tragedy.

Classmates…accidents..Dad was cleaning his weapon, thought it was unloaded, and his grown son, suddenly dead in front of him.

A person I dated, their whole family of young men and dad,hunters..the front closet full of unlocked weapons, bullets laying out on the carpet as the door opens, toddlers in the house.

People are stupid….and make mistakes…do we need more weapons in homes, cars, purses? I bet before a woman is saved, one's child shoots it's sibling. I bet one dad looses his child, just because he wanted to carry.

When a child dies, the whole family dies people. The parents, the brothers and sisters. Divorce. Depression,sibling suicides.Drug abuse.

Think before you run out and buy. Burying your own children isn't something you want to think about the rest of your life.

rhd99 (Anonymous) says…

Sigmund, accidental shootings happen, that's the point. Fine, it's your funeral.

ku_law (Anonymous) says…

Crohan,

The “Right to Bear Arms” does NOT mean citizens have the right to own a gun/bear arms. That is an antiquated Amendment that has absolutely nothing to do with people today having the right to own/conceal/carry a weapon.

Multidisciplinary (Anonymous) says…

sgtwolverine…a man in the bar was once using the “I'm trained to use my body as a weapon…superhero, military routine”..pickup line one night. Do you have any idea how hard it is to sit there trying to politely listen to that stuff…while inside I'm laughing so hard I'm about to fall off of the chair?:D Needless to say, he got no where with me.