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Do you think President Bush should veto the stem cell research bill?

Asked at Massachusetts Street on July 20, 2006

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Photo of Danielle Schlesinger

“No. It’s very important for medical research. I think it’s too important at this point. There are a lot of lives we could save.”

Photo of Steven Rehmer

“I feel that he should. I’m not so much for the type of research they’re wanting to do with this bill.”

Photo of Andy Davis

“No. I’m pro-research in general, and this seems like it would be a bad first bill for him to veto.”

Photo of Erin Nielsen

“No. I don’t think that he should veto it, because I think there is a lot of valuable research that could be done.”

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Comments

sunflower_sue 7 years, 9 months ago

MD, Hope you are able to get your nurse back...or at least a good replacement! Yes, I hear it has been terribly hot there. Ahhhhh...Kansas! Right now, I'm here with Dorothy and if I could only find a pair of ruby slippers...

Good night, Ya'll! (and thanks for not taking me too seriously!:))

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Ceallach 7 years, 9 months ago

sue, we're right there with you on the optimistic outcome AND for you all to return home. I'll bet even YOU are getting tired of being the strong one. We're all rooting for you and your patient (and your patience :)

Well, six o'clock comes early tomorrow,

Manana Y'all

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Multidisciplinary 7 years, 9 months ago

Sue, I haven't been online enough to keep tabs on things, but I see what's up now. Best wishes !!! And yes, I get the so ready to be home part. But it's been SO hot here, it was a good time to be gone. It will cool down tomorrow, finally. Our nurse vanished after having some personal things to take care of Wed.. He's from Topeka..haven't had time to check on the news there. Like I don't have enough to worry about! Hopefully we'll hear something tomorrow.

Keep us posted, and I hope your trip goes smoothly.

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sunflower_sue 7 years, 9 months ago

OK, Relentless Instigator, don't even make me have to wipe the floor with your over-reproductive self. Salvation Sue has some nice lime kool-aid for you if you're thirsty. :oP BTW, tell your breeding buddy she better e-mail me!

Ceal, 3 kids? Oh, the shame! ;) (My Mom is 1 of 12 and my Dad was 1 of 7.)

All kidding aside, things are going very well. Thank you for asking. We have strong faith in an optimistic outcome. (But we are soooooo ready to be home!)

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Ceallach 7 years, 9 months ago

RI: Thank you, thank you. People will seldom discuss the basis for Sanger's passion for birth control -- I believe weeds in the garden was her reference to the inferior races and classes.

That being said, as the oldest of 8, I can see the advantages of only having 1 or two siblings :):) Myself, I'm one of those baddies with 3 children :-[

sun_sue: We used to have a prez that could talk pretty . . matter of fact he still can, problem was he didn't know the definition of "is." ;)

s_sue, how are things going? All kidding aside, my very best wishes to you all.

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jimincountry 7 years, 9 months ago

Sue is correct: aclu would be decimated!

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H_Lecter 7 years, 9 months ago

There is nothing like a plate of fresh stems!

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jimincountry 7 years, 9 months ago

Much too deep on the real-world-scale-of intelligence for mere mortals to decde; the ACLU will advise us!

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RETICENT_IRREVERENT 7 years, 9 months ago

So, Salvation Sister Sue....

Now I am "irresponsible" for 3 home runs?

Kinda preachy there "Salvation Sister Sue" singing "Nearer my god to thee"....

Should we call you Sunflower Margaret?

Seems like your bible today is Sangers writings...

More children from the fit, less from the unfit -- that is the chief aim of birth control."

"The most merciful thing that a large family does to one of its infant members is to kill it."

The purpose in promoting birth control was "to create a race of thoroughbreds,"

. . .

All I'm saying, is pretty baby, La, La, Love you... ooops Pixies song in my head.....

My whole single point today is don't complain about something if your not willing to take action and try to change it.

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The_Original_Bob 7 years, 9 months ago

"Idiots should be steralized." Sue

Who will write news articles then?

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Multidisciplinary 7 years, 9 months ago

I, and ever scientist I know, whole heartedly support stem cell research of every kind. I have talked about this with several top doctors, and they also feel it should be investigated throughly.They know it will take time.

There are so many things that have already been shown for this to work on, it's vital that it must continue. For it to only be allowed in other countries, means we will loose our best research scientists and doctors to those others countries, so that they can work to help people.

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Ceallach 7 years, 9 months ago

staff04: haven't the adult stem cells already been proven successful? I'm serious, why not invest time and money focusing on the area of stem cell research that has been proven successful? To me it seems the logical thing to do. Of course, the roaring, and I do mean roaring, debate between the two philosophies of life/choice, is one that will not be resolved. The majority/minority status may change but there will always be differences. Differences made on both sides by sincere, well-meaning people who happen to disagree on beginning of life, quality of life vs value of all human life, etc. These are just issues that people on both sides get very emotional about - as demonstrated on today's board.

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sunflower_sue 7 years, 9 months ago

RI, On the contrary, all I'm saying is: "Idiots should be steralized." You, an obvious genius, should have had at least 3 more. Then you could have been Mr."I needed a fix, so I had six." ;o)

In all seriousness, have you ever considered the thought that more and more "responsible" people are having smaller and smaller families, while "irresponsible" people are popping out kids like they're getting paid to do so? (Oh, yeah! Wait a minute...)
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what this trend, if continued, will do to the general population of the earth. Why we could, someday, even end up w/ a president that can't talk pretty. Very frightening!

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Kearney 7 years, 9 months ago

Liberty,

Are you saying that Iran hasn't been supplying Hezbollah for all of these years?

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Liberty 7 years, 9 months ago

As far as the question goes, I think that a stem cell should veto President Bush.

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Liberty 7 years, 9 months ago

I don't think that you can actually believe what you hear in the main stream news these days, to be the truth. "In war, the first casualty is always the truth."

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Kearney 7 years, 9 months ago

.............and sasquatch too! Sasquatch was having some trouble with the whole "Iran angle" as I recall.

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Kearney 7 years, 9 months ago

Okay, this is off topic, I know......

75x55,

There's a interesting article on Yahoo! (that I've just finished reading) about Iran wanting to become a major player in the Middle East and how Iran is, in fact, a big financial and military arms supplier to Hezbollah. And, most of all, it talks about how Hezbollah wouldn't have lured Israel into this latest battle without Iran's backing and blessing!! It's an interesting article!

I wonder if Xeno and Holygrail will see it?

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ksmoderate 7 years, 9 months ago

75x55:

""An embryo has the potential for life"

I always understood from science class that an embryo was the first stage of individual life - is this incorrect?"

Isn't it a zygote before any embryo? Anyway, that has nothing to do with the veto. Those embryos will be more likely to be thrown in the trash now without gov't. funding for research. Trash and research produce the same result--not life. But it wasn't going to be life anyway, so why not gain something from it?

Did anyone see the Daily Show last night? The bit Stewart did on Slimy Sam Brownback's little poster session on the floor of the Senate almost made me spill my beer.

Oh, and I do vote. And I watch the House and Senate on C-Span (time permitting). And I write my senators and reps.

I wrote both Brownback and Roberts about the gay marriage charade, and Brownback didn't even respond. What a loser. At least Roberts had the b@lls to write me back, even though he disagreed with me. Ryun also writes back, even if in disagreement. I Don't know about the other Reps.

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ksmoderate 7 years, 9 months ago

Yes, and "The Vetoizer." Heh heh.

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75x55 7 years, 9 months ago

"An embryo has the potential for life"

I always understood from science class that an embryo was the first stage of individual life - is this incorrect?


"The use of those tissues has not been perfected yet, but if we put a stop to the research, we will never know. "

If it shows such wonderful promise, then why is there no significant private funding?

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Ceallach 7 years, 9 months ago

Are you saying he is a haterer?

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staff04 7 years, 9 months ago

Ceallach- Yes, embryonic stem cells have been used to create skin tissue, nerve tissue, and liver tissue. The use of those tissues has not been perfected yet, but if we put a stop to the research, we will never know. I hate to use the phrase, but people who don't want to know are willfully ignorant. If the science fails, its a win for opponents. If it doesn't fail, and cures for some of these afflictions are found, it isn't a loss, even for the opponents.

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BunE 7 years, 9 months ago

Government funding of science is...

ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS THAT A GOVERNMENT CAN DO!!!!! Its a question of scale, priorities and what we value in the US.

The Gates Foundations is what 60 billion? The acknowledged Defense Budget for 2005 is what? 450 billion? What is the CDC's budget? Whatever it is Double it and don't build a submarine.

But I digress, GW's pro-life views stop at birth, so lets be consistant and look at as many ways as possible to help humans post birth. The abortion argument is an old one that does not hold water. An embryo has the potential for life but so do eggs and sperm, is a condom abortion? Is menstruation? Is god an abortionist because of a miscarriage?

WHO ARE THE REAL PROLIFERS HERE?

So GW had to kowtow to the whacky ultra right, big deal, with time comes change...

GW and the right are masters at framing the argument, calling ESC research "murder" is brilliant, though for the first time in a while the public isn't buying what they are saying en masse. Is this a trend? Are we going to let the whacko 25% who hate science and healthcare and america hold us hostage?

NO

GW is wrong. Why does he hate America? Why does he hate Americans?

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Ceallach 7 years, 9 months ago

Welcome back, badger! Long time no type :)

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Ceallach 7 years, 9 months ago

staff04: you sayjust a few of the potential applications, maybe I am uninformed (not an impossibility:), have there been any successes that led to the belief in this potential, or is it still at the hypothetical stage?

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staff04 7 years, 9 months ago

75x55- Spinal cord injury, cancer, Parkinson's and Alzheimer's, stroke, burns, Type 1 diabetes, arthritis, and liver disease are just a few of the potential applications for the research.

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staff04 7 years, 9 months ago

Godot-

"Of course, we could discuss the morality of creating those embryos knowing that they would be "trash" in the first place."

Yes we could, but until embryonic stem cell research opponents start calling for the closure of fertility clinics and an end to reproductive studies, then their credibility on this issue is shot...

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75x55 7 years, 9 months ago

Save them from what, scarlets_talk?

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scarlets_talk 7 years, 9 months ago

crohan--"I can't believe you people feel it is okay to intentionally create a human life and then turn around and destroy it"

Well, i can't believe "you people" feel it's okay to let other humans suffer and die by obstructing the research that could save them...

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DaREEKKU 7 years, 9 months ago

If any of you eat eggs then you shouldn't have a problem with stem cell research. Despite the contrary animals weren't put here by God for our consumption. Just a though, by the way I'll take my aborted chicken fetuses scrammbled.

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Godot 7 years, 9 months ago

"Bush's thinking is FLAWED when you discard embryos. "

Of course, we could discuss the morality of creating those embryos knowing that they would be "trash" in the first place.

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Godot 7 years, 9 months ago

Embryonic stem cell research is LEGAL. Bush's funding veto has not prevented anyone from continuing to do the research as long as they can fund it themselves.

If this research is so important, and if, as you all seem to believe, the universities are where it should be done, then use your clout with the endowment associations, have all of them across the nation unite to use their MULTI-BILLIONS in assets to fund it.

Or get the Gates Foundation to fund it, or get George Soros to do it. After all, Soros must be flush with cash. He just put $200 million in escrow for the purchase of an interest in a Chinese auto manufacturer that he intends to use to flood the US with cheap cars. If he has money for that, surely he has money for a cause as noble as embryonic stem cell research.

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/opinion/columnists/datelinedc/s_461050.html

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rhd99 7 years, 9 months ago

Badger & everyone, I part today with this thought: What staff04 said about Bush's position in this stem cell research fight (which is just starting) is right on. Bush's thinking is FLAWED when you discard embryos. That is exactly what Bush wants. Wolverine says emotions must not be a factor in this debate. You're right, Wolverine! Folks, let's be honest with each other, okay? The less Bush talks, the smarter he would be, especially on this issue. Bush thinks that what he wants he can get at little or no cost. HE IS WRONG! What Bush did by his veto is the antithesis of what he told America he stands for. He says he is for human life, but he won't help the people suffering from these diseases. WHAT A STINKEN HYPOCRITE! Bush says he wants bipartisanship. It was demonstrated clearly in this bill. Yet, BUSH VETOES the measure. Life isn't fair, BUSH! Americans can't have it their way all the time. WHAT MAKES YOU THINK YOU'RE DIFFERENT, BUSH?!

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rhd99 7 years, 9 months ago

My manners, how rude of me, welcome back, Badger!

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Gootsie 7 years, 9 months ago

what I was thinking, staff04.

My pole dancin' buddy is back! Life is good! Hi Badger!

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rhd99 7 years, 9 months ago

Staff04, brilliant argument. If GWB thinks he hoodwinked all of us, he doesn't know the American people well AT ALL! His logic is flawed. He & others may have won the legislative battle, but they lost the rhetorical war in the case of this stem cell research fight! Face it, people, the game is just starting! Where is your INTEGRITY NOW, BUSH?!

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RETICENT_IRREVERENT 7 years, 9 months ago

So Miss "I stopped at two Sue".......

I Mr. "set my sperm free, I have three" am contributing to the killing of the earth, while you Miss "I stopped at two Sue" are the conscientious steward of the earth?

And since I fornicated, no... copulated thrice, rather than just twice, I am more of an Idiot than thou?

And now that I am a "miller lite poster boy" I have a god complex?

Yes, before I am consumed by the fire of hades, take my parts, Its a vessel I no longer require.

Heck, I'd donate my seed for research...(if I could)... It would be a pleasure to contribute. (as long as it wasn't like the Don Johnson as Vic in a scene from " A Boy and His Dog".

All I'm saying is...., Bush has said repeatedly " I hear the voices" (mental health care is neglected in this country isn't it?), Has ranted like a bossy 6 y.o. on a playground" I am the decider"(was he jumping up and down at the same time?).... But someone put him there..... and its your rabid yeller dogs, that need to have a backbone or other body parts, and overide the veto.
The only way they will do this is by actually hearing from the people they represent....... The people that voted for them, or against....

They are not psychics, though Bush may be psychotic.

How many actually know who their representatives are?

And your vote does count... the EC may be archaic... so... push your representatives to change the constitution and make it a straight popular vote.

jayhawks71, are you one of those (since you say your vote does not count) who would not step in and call crimestoppers to report a crime?

Remind me again.... what does apathy breed?

and my other question for the day?.... what is that piece of public art on the bluff at the Wabunsee rest stop at the edge of the Flint Hills? Something that fell off "Salina Piece" on its way to KU? (I'm actually thinking... MIB...., a space alien refuges transportation vehicle?)

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staff04 7 years, 9 months ago

crohan1978- Then GWB is an abortionist. Ordering that embryos go in the trash is abortion.

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crohan1978 7 years, 9 months ago

embryonic stem cell research is abortion by defintion. You're aborting the life of an embryo, ABORTION! I can't believe you people feel it is okay to intentionally create a human life and then turn around and destroy it? I understand there may be a benefit to doing it, but so far, they haven't found anything, and there are scientist that aren't even sure they will find anything. There will always be disease on this planet, you get rid of one thing, something else will come along. It is natures way. Just as many of you tree huggers don't like polluting the earth, how is this any different, you're messin w/ mother nature, and mother nature always wins out.

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rhd99 7 years, 9 months ago

I don't want this to turn into an emotional debate, Wolverine, anymore than you do, but the fact is the fact, Bush HAS FAILED in his presidency & this stem cell research debacle is another nail in that man's political coffin! This is one hell of a hard pill for people who want cures to diseases to swallow! CHOKE ON IT, BUSH!

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jonas 7 years, 9 months ago

And a return with the usual eloquence and tact. You've been missed, badger.

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sgtwolverine 7 years, 9 months ago

Hey, look, it's badger! Welcome back.

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rhd99 7 years, 9 months ago

Badger, Thank you. Everyone who thinks abortion was involved in this stem cell research bill, why was this bill passed in a bipartisan manner in Congress? Bill FRIST supported this bill! Doesn't that have any relevance? Bush is so out there, he is in lala land in the worst way. That is why he can't think clearly on this issue & other issues he & his administration NEVER will resolve in the waning years of this horrendous presidency!

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sgtwolverine 7 years, 9 months ago

Perhaps that illustrates a lack of application of private funding, but it does not illustrate an actual lack of private funds. Perhaps at this time, as other have suggested, the remarkably concerted push for federal funding might be better directed towards applying private funding. I cannot believe there isn't money out there that could be secured with the same effort currently being directed at the federal government.

Aside from that, I would like to suggest that we not engage in emotional efforts to sway opinion. I do not want to hear about how this could have saved Reagan or Christopher Reeve or how it could save Michael J. Fox, just as I do not want to see photo ops of Bush with babies born from those embryos. That is not thoughtful debate; that is emotional manipulation. Drop it.

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badger 7 years, 9 months ago

Fangorn, I guess I don't understand how this is a 'back door' to abortion.

This bill doesn't say anything about abortion. You'll note some pretty solid anti-abortion folks (like, say, Nancy Reagan) were on board for this bill.

It's important to understand, when you bring abortion into this debate, that what's being talked about is the IVF and GIFT 'leftover' embryos, which are stored indefinitely or thrown away. They would never become babies, just sit there until they were totally non-viable and then maybe get incinerated (or in some cases just stored indefinitely). Using those cells for research, instead of burning them or storing them for years, doesn't make them any less likely to become babies.

I understand the parallel to using aborted fetuses, but the difference is that the 'leftover' embryos are an unavoidable by-product of fertility treatments. Technically, since they never implanted, they're no different (ethically speaking) than a fertilized egg that failed to implant and was washed out with menstrual fluid.

Allowing the use of the 'extra' embryos could actually prevent this from becoming an abortion issue. There's really only a finite number of labs and scientists who can do research, and the number of available frozen embryos is more than sufficient for that number. With the number of available embryos, and more being created every day, and the tight controls likely to continue on any lab or company doing human stem cell research, I can't foresee a situation where demand could possibly exceed supply. The number of labs would have to increase exponentially every year for years, maybe decades, and there just aren't that many universities and companies with the kind of money and brainpower needed for this research (even with federal funding).

Did the House not unanimously pass a bill explicitly against 'farming' embryonic stem cells? Shouldn't that put to rest a lot of the ridiculously Godwinian 'hitler and mengele' references (You go Godwin for the victory, there, luny!)?

For those opposed to the use of these embryos for research, please tell me what you think should be done with them? Please provide supporting ethical arguments for destroying them, or a clear explanation as to how ownership and responsibility will be determined for the duration of their storage.

When we started artificially creating pregnancies, we opened this ethical can of worms, and I don't think that all the ramifications of how a frozen and unused embryo will be viewed under the law were fully considered.

This debate is the result of that lack of consideration, so I'd really like to see a lot of the people who block any reasonable solution to it provide their own workable option instead of just histrionics about Hitler.

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rhd99 7 years, 9 months ago

Wolverine, is Fox improving? Don't think so. Are people forgetting Nancy Reagan & the terrible loss she suffered from Former President Reagan's death? People aren't forgetting that moment in our nation's history, but the research is not complete. Let's find those cures. MDA is doing what they can, so why can't Bush appreciate those efforts!?

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Kyle Neuer 7 years, 9 months ago

Just another example of this administration's anti-intellectual bias. Anti-education, anti-research(unless you're the defense or oil industry).

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sgtwolverine 7 years, 9 months ago

rhd, how do Michael J. Fox's demands prove the lack of private money?

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rhd99 7 years, 9 months ago

Sue, thank you! Let's remember one thing, though, & I think you hit it on the head very well. TRY! Bush is so chicken S_ _ _, he already made up his mind, FORGETTING the little ones who have these dehabilitating diseases. Where is his compassion NOW!?

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sunflower_sue 7 years, 9 months ago

RI brought up a good point. How many of you actually vote in every election? Do any of you give to private foundations? (And I don't even want to hear the "I can't afford it" whiny baby song. BS! I give yearly to 5 foundations that do research and I can't afford it either.

Now, RI, as for Darwin...stupid people breed! Stupid people breed faster than the educated. I guess according to Darwin we are destined to be a race of idiots, because they are the "most fit." Yes, you heavy breeders out there can feel free to pummel me. If you and your significant other have produced more than 2 babies...you are contributing to the killing of the earth. Speaking as the last of 4 children, I shouldn't even be here. :o)

As for stem cell research: I'm not a firm believer in abortion. I say "firm" because there are some rare occasions that might persuade me to change my mind. However, I do not relate stem cell research with "just another excuse to make abortion a good thing." That is rediculous! I am pro-research! If the cells are just being thrown away, use them. Study them. Make some nasty diseases go away, or fail trying..but do try. I donated my placentas...they were just going to get tossed anyway. When I'm dead, they'll get any viable (or non-viable) tissues they want. Better than shoving them in a box to slowly decompose. I don't believe signing the back of my drivers license marks me as a target to pull the plug. I would also make the same decision for my children...Heaven forbid I should ever have to do so.

If you've ever used any form of birth-control, you've already played God. I know I have.

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rhd99 7 years, 9 months ago

Godot, why then is Michael J. Fox holding steadfast to demanding the funding for stem cell research? Where is the money going to come from? How are people like Michael J. Fox going to be healed without this research? Bush NEVER thought of the implications of his irresponsible behavior toward people with illnesses such as Fox! Brian is right, stem cell research does NOT have to have all answers, but saying there is NO solution out there is a bunch of BS. There are at least leads or two answers, now let's FIND those ANSWERS NOW!

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BrianR 7 years, 9 months ago

Embryonic stem cell research doesn't have to hold ALL of the answers to be worthwhile. Hell, if it holds a couple of answers or even leads to another good question or two it's worth it.

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staff04 7 years, 9 months ago

R-I:

A lot of people did contact their elected officials--that's why the bill passed in both chambers...

The President doesn't respond to public opinion, remember?

If federal money were used for the research, the research would be happening at nonprofit research facilities like the NIH and Universities. I think there is FAR greater risk of unethical practice when you leave it up to private, for-profit entities.

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Godot 7 years, 9 months ago

rhd99 wrote, "Brian, very true, but let's remember one thing, the big ticket in this issue is how INHUMANE George W. Bush really is. Is he for human life, when especially he VETOES a life saving bill that could HAVE saved Former President Reagan's life & the lives of others with severe illnesses that impair their mobility? DON'T THINK SO!"

There is nothing inhumane about not providing federal funding for something that remains completely legal, and that remains open to private businesses to explore.

If you university research types are so certain that embryonic stem cell research holds ALL the answers, and want so desperately to be involved in the work, do your own fund raising, get grants from private foundations or businesses or individuals, and start your own research firm; or, at the least, find someone in the private sector who is already doing this research, and try to get hired there.

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jayhawks71 7 years, 9 months ago

Reticent, part of the problem with the private funding issue is that most research institutions receive some Federal funding. This actually prevents those that have received Federal funding in the past (to develop the research labs) from doing this type of research.

I certainly hope the free market steps in and sees the potential. If I am going to be forced to pay taxes, this is something I would gladly see my tax dollars go for.

Your vote... is relatively meaningless except in county and city elections; sad but true. Face it, it is less valuable than speaking out in public against policies that you disagree with. Politicians don't know who voted for them, but many names, faces and voices are (slightly) more memorable.

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rhd99 7 years, 9 months ago

Brian, very true, but let's remember one thing, the big ticket in this issue is how INHUMANE George W. Bush really is. Is he for human life, when especially he VETOES a life saving bill that could HAVE saved Former President Reagan's life & the lives of others with severe illnesses that impair their mobility? DON'T THINK SO!

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BrianR 7 years, 9 months ago

"May God have mercy on President George W. Bush!"

Yes, but whose god? Will the real god please stand up.

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rhd99 7 years, 9 months ago

COMPASSIONATE!? Give me a break! Let me put it to you this way, sports fans. The ghosts of Ronald & Nancy Reagan one of these days WILL haunt the GOP! President Bush suffers from a dillusional illness that says he is FOR human life, but by his VETO of this stem cell research bill, HE demonstrates he has NO compassion for the rest of humanity, IN SPITE of what WE the American PEOPLE said before! May God have mercy on President George W. Bush!

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sgtwolverine 7 years, 9 months ago

Arrr_Aye, natural selection will shift to those who can't afford to cure what ails them. If it hasn't already.

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RETICENT_IRREVERENT 7 years, 9 months ago

Ok, I'm ready to be pummeled...

A.) Why complain now, how many of you wrote, e-mailed, called your elected officials in support or non-support of this issue. This bills fight is over, speak with your vote, and continue to tell your elected officials how you feel about issues. Upcoming, speak with your vote, and of course with your pocket book. Federal money may not be allocated, how about private foundations?

B.) This issue is very touchy, everyone has an opinion. An opinion is belief or conclusion held with confidence but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof. Wars are fought for differences in beliefs.

C.) (and the pummeling point) Are we not screwing with Darwins legacy? Natural selection?, How else will we "thin the herd"?

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75x55 7 years, 9 months ago

Actually folks, it's just another way to suck big bucks out of Uncle Sam to let researchers play in areas that show no results and thusly don't garner (sanely spent) private research support.

More grant money, more grant money, drown me in more grant money!

Leeches.

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craigers 7 years, 9 months ago

Why would Bush be doing this for political gain? Did I miss something and can he be elected again?

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sgtwolverine 7 years, 9 months ago

"Which Third World country will be the first to surpass the US in science and research?"

I don't understand this. The US is extraordinarily wealthy, and I'd be willing to bet there is an astronomical amount of private money available for medical research. So I'm having trouble seeing it as something that will drop the US behind some third world country, and I'm also having trouble seeing it as a real disaster that the president did not put more federal money into research.

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Kearney 7 years, 9 months ago

It's rather ironic, isn't it?

Dubya stands to gain the most from stem cell research (given the way that he talks and struggles mightily to form more than one sentence at a time)....yet he vetoed it!

I guess he likes being the "walking vegetable" that he is!

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Ceallach 7 years, 9 months ago

So many people seem to be oblivious to the enormous successes resulting from adult stem cell research. The embryonic stem cell research has not been successful. It isn't the source or fate of the current embryos that is at the base of my and others objections, it is the future source. How long until embryos become profitable in the medical market place? The very fact that abortion is legal totally denies humanity to embryos through the first 8 weeks of pregnancy and fetuses from 9 weeks to birth (remember late term abortion? the child can be killed, disected and sucked out until the time it actually takes a breath), why not experiment on a baby at any stage of their development? In the safety of their mother's womb! Who knows, maybe by slaughtering our unborn children at 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 months, their little cells would help some wealthy middle aged or elderly persons live longer. Keeping ourselves healthier and alive longer, at all costs, even our unborn children, seems to be no problem to many people. Providing designer stem cells could be a very lucrative occupation.

Embryonic stem cell research is just another step in the desensitization of our society to the value of human life.

The really sad thing is that I know Shirley. Years ago (before her illness) she would never have supported this agenda. Guess it all depends on whose ox is being gored.

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BunE 7 years, 9 months ago

So by your argument fanghorn, we should close down in vitro clinics to stop the innocent slaughter of babies?

Wait, those aren't babies, they are masses of cells that could be humans or could be spinal cords or could be thrown away!

Red Herring Alert: ANTI-FETUS HARVESTING BILL!

GW: For life, unless you are Lebanese!

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jonas 7 years, 9 months ago

Fangorn: I think you're drawing a false comparison in saying this is just a way to keep abortion legal. There is a percieved ability to gain medical benefit, and abortion will not be illegal anytime soon, because neither side (of politicians) really want it illegal, because being legal energizes BOTH sides of the base. Sorry, though, gotta run again.

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theDudeAbides 7 years, 9 months ago

Fangorn: Obviously there are more reasons that Bush's approval ratings are low, than just Stem Cell Research. There are so many to choose from, I was just using this issue as another example on how out of touch he is with most of the country. Just because someone believes in something for a long time, doesn't make it correct.

I believed in Santa Claus for many years, should I stick to that as well?

Bush does have a certain subborness to him that is charming. No matter how many facts/defualts/untruths are exposed, he "stays the course"

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jen82 7 years, 9 months ago

http://www.missouricures.com

The organization I work for, the Stowers Institute for Medical Research, supports the Missouri Coalition for Lifesavin Cures. You can find FACTS on this page.

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Fangorn 7 years, 9 months ago

theDudeAbides: If "75% of the country" supports stem cell research, then Congress should have no problem overriding this veto. After all, it takes only two-thirds of each house to do this.

And regarding approval ratings: First, there are many reasons to disapprove of Bush's performance (my primary ones are his failure to veto any pork and his open-borders immigration policy), so not all of his low rating stems from (excuse the pun) his opposition to this research. Second, President Clinton was the one who continually had his finger in the political wind to help him decide what he really believed. W stated his opposition to ESCR long ago and has stuck to it.

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Kathleen Christian 7 years, 9 months ago

I so agree with you Jonas - claims to uphold moral issues by politicians makes me laugh too. Heck look at all the abortions going on in this country. We push recylcing like crazy well what about recycling human tissue that could save lives instead of throwing it in the incinerator? What a waste. I'm for research also, I don't agree with cloning a person, but cloning tissue is another thing that can be used to replace tissue for burn victims and other malformations, especially in children. But to put a stop to stem-cell research is just a political move not a moral one on Bush's part. Anyone, want a shoulder massage? Bush is a joke. I'm sorry and ashamed he's our President.

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theDudeAbides 7 years, 9 months ago

Lunacy - Do you really think that other countries have more talented/intelligent scientists than we have? There's a reason that we produce the most ground breaking sceintific discoveries, while other countries try to figure out how to mix a pig and and mouse...

This is quickly turning into an abortion debate. Last time I checked this is still legal (and happening every day) in many parts of the country. This will continue to happen, whether or not stem cells are brought into the equation.

Personally, I think it would be great for a private company to fully fund, develop, and patent their stem cell product. Best of luck to them and their investors.

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Chris Tackett 7 years, 9 months ago

First, we need to know the facts. We're talking about 100 cells here. These are either going to be thrown away (because they can't be frozen forever) or used for research.

Secondly, 70% of Americans (or more) support stem-cell research.

Bush claims they are "human life", but with that logic, the flakes of skin we shed throughout the day are life.

Instead of allowing the research to move closer to potential cures and extension of life, he's chosing to simply throw them away.

This veto will do nothing but prevent possible cures for millions of Americans.

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Fangorn 7 years, 9 months ago

Embryonic stem cell research is merely a backdoor way to support abortion. Period. They've tried and tried and tried to come up with some benefit, any benefit from killing babies. But despite all the effort it just hasn't happened. The most enthusiastic supporters of dead-babies-for-better-health are also some of the most vehement opposition to adult stem cell research, which has developed treatments for: rebuilding livers, putting Crohn's disease and lupus into remission, repairing heart muscle, restoring bone marrow, restoring sight (ocular surface stem cell transplant and a cornea transplant), and even urinary incontinence.

And jayhawks71, do you mean to tell me that you make no distinction between what many (including President Bush) see as encouraging the destruction of unborn children, and sending to war troops from an all-volunteer force who are adults, fully capable of evaluating the risks of their profession and the moral/ethical rightness (or wrongness) of the current mission? Please tell me you're not that ignorant!
And since March 2003, the Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) has contributed to the an estimated 4300 to 8600 traffic deaths (Dr. Leonard Evans, National Academy of Sciences; I'll let you verify it yourself, since my assertion is unlikely to be taken at face value). This happens because fuel-efficient cars sometimes equal smaller cars, and smaller cars usually equal more dangerous cars. So higher mileage has killed more Americans than the Iraq War. I say we should end our pointless "experiment" with fuel economy. No Blood For Oil!

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paladin 7 years, 9 months ago

Hey, now maybe private enterprise can fund the research, obtain PATENTS, and reap the potentially huge financial benefits. Good for the economy. You spose that's maybe the primary, underlying motive for the veto?

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The_Original_Bob 7 years, 9 months ago

"Which ever company uses it's private funds to develop this will be rich beyond belief (It's not a matter of if, but when)."

That's how the game works now more or less, although federal funds are usually* sent to Universities or Institutes. Granted, the given product will end up being sold by a private company. But, that's how a lot of treatments and drugs are currently developed.

*I say usually because there are instances where it is not done that way.

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BrianR 7 years, 9 months ago

Lunacy, So you're whining has less to do with stem cell research and more to do with whether profits could be had by an organization you dislike?

"...they've gotten zip" is no reason to stop doing research, it is the reason to continue.

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lunacydetector 7 years, 9 months ago

...oh but other nations are getting to play joseph mengele with embryonic stem cells and they've gotten ZIP. adult and umbilical stem cells have produced treatments - why not concentrate our efforts where there are actual results already?

do you think this has something to do with spinning off into another industry? it would be a boon to fertility clinics and planned parenthood. imagine the potential profits if embryonic stem cells were allowed to be used for scientific experimentation.

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theDudeAbides 7 years, 9 months ago

I think that Embryonic Stem Cells have great promise, but there can be no cure/treatment without first having research. The main point of this is that the federal funding was banned. Maybe this isn't such a bad thing. Which ever company uses it's private funds to develop this will be rich beyond belief (It's not a matter of if, but when). Since this money will not go back to the tax payer, maybe it's right that it should come from the companies producing it.

Either way, I'm not sure that it is wise to use your power to veto a bill that 75% of the country agrees with...THen wonder why your approval rating is so low?

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The_Original_Bob 7 years, 9 months ago

Craigers - Ye gods. I actually did not notice that yesterday but thanks. That is so typical.

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craigers 7 years, 9 months ago

TOB, did you see the title yesterday about a burglary at the bowling alley? Let's just say they used the word strike for the theifs action.

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craigers 7 years, 9 months ago

I would have to say that if the stem cells in question are the ones that were mentioned in the article then he shouldn't have vetoed the bill. The fact is that these cells are just being trashed, why not try to get some benefit out of them even if they haven't yet.

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The_Original_Bob 7 years, 9 months ago

What Jonas said to the very last word.

These embryonic stem cells are currently being thrown away! Isn't that a more tragic waste of life?

You know why they've produced "zip" so far? Because researchers have not been able to do adequate research.

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OldEnuf2BYurDad 7 years, 9 months ago

C'mon Andy! Can't ya crack a smile for Jesus?

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jayhawks71 7 years, 9 months ago

Wow KayCee, talk about ignorance! The very reason this is a bad veto is because of the potential for these cells to lead to cures, increase quality of life, and to reduce this country's overall medical costs.

One solid reason there has been "zip" as you put it is because of the ban on federal funding. This was a bill to ease that ban on the funding. How is it that one places restrictions on this type of research, bringing it to a standstill, then says, "oh look they haven't found anything" so that's a reason not to fund it. Well, if you don't have people researching the issues, how could you have found anything????

Oh and talk about consistency. War is always the great "experiment" because you have hypotheses about what is going to occur but you really don't know much about it to be sure of the outcomes. One thing we know for certain about war is that people will die, yet, Mr. Bush had no trouble experimenting on life in Iraq, now did he. Life is so precious to him, then why nearly 2700 troops dead and tens of thousands of Iraqis? Talk about a hypocrite..... honor-bound my u know what!

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KayCee 7 years, 9 months ago

These comments show the ignorance of the general population. Steve and detector are the only ones that KNOW embryonic stem cells have produced ZIP. Now adult stem cells have shown promise, and there is NO opposition to that research. Bush supports the adult research, so he is being consistant.

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sgtwolverine 7 years, 9 months ago

An honest question, because I really don't know: are there non-embryonic stem cells that could be used? I ask because those would be a bit less controversial.

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bthom37 7 years, 9 months ago

lunacydetector;

Um, just because there haven't been any yet, means we should stop trying?

No one flew before the Wright brothers. Guess they should have stopped trying.

Let's face it, even at the minimum the extra embryos from IVF weren't going to be implanted, especially not implanted faster than they are created. They're going to be destroyed one way or the other.

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BrianR 7 years, 9 months ago

What's the point, he already did. A better question would be: Which Third World country will be the first to surpass the US in science and research?

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lunacydetector 7 years, 9 months ago

i am assuming the stem cells are embryonic stem cells of which there have been absolutely ZERO cures or treatments. i agree with GW. why play hitler?

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bthom37 7 years, 9 months ago

Mr. Davis makes an excellent point; this is the first veto of his entire term. He didn't veto any of the massive pork-laden spending bills, no matter how badly some of them deserved it. But this bill, with its potential to help untold numbers of people, gets vetoed.

Gee, how compassionate of the president.

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jonas 7 years, 9 months ago

Well, since the embryos in question are not viable, and are just GOING INTO THE TRASH, then the only reason he vetoed it in the first place was to energize his and his party's base during an election year. Is that a good reason to veto an important bill?

Claims by politicians to uphold morals make me laugh.

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