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Do you think the state should pass a law allowing people to carry concealed guns?

Asked at Borders, 700 N.H. on February 9, 2006

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Photo of Amanda Harris

“Yes, I do. I’m a member of the NRA, and I think the right to carry prevents crime. I’d like to be able to protect myself if someone is trying to kill me.”

Photo of Sandra Benedict

“No. There are too many guns on the street already. We need to do something about the guns that are already out there.”

Photo of Mike Elder

“I have read that in states that have passed such laws, the murder rate has gone down. So I would lean toward yes, but it wouldn’t break my heart if it didn’t pass.”

Photo of Mickey Cesar

“Absolutely not. It would make Kansas much less safe.”

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Comments

neopolss 8 years, 10 months ago

I am neither opposed or in favor of this. I suppose we are a gun-happy nation in some respects. If we could all stop paying attention the media, and stop living in fear constantly, perhaps we'd enjoy the gun range more often that buying for "protection." I'm not really sure what makes Americans so fearful, it's unlike any other country in the world. Maybe it's because we have so much stuff ...

Topside 8 years, 10 months ago

STOP- You had me at "I'm a member of the NRA". XOXO

"Nothin' Sexier than a pretty woman holding a gun."-That is a movie quote but I am blanking on the movie.

jonas 8 years, 10 months ago

Why all this talk of concealed weapons? Why not pass a law that has us just carry them out in plain sight, on holsters or something.

Although the point of the second amendment is now totally moot, it is simple common sense that making restrictions on gun laws only really effects the people that nobody's worrying about anyway.

Topside 8 years, 10 months ago

If Missouri, Oklahoma, and Colorado all have right to caryr laws than we definitely need to carry guns. Don't you see what happening here, we're being surrounded! Katie bar the door!!!

gphawk89 8 years, 10 months ago

Yes... but you'll probably still not be allowed to carry a weapon in almost all situations where you'd actually want to have one. Missouri passed its concealed carry law a couple of years back and then went on to prohibit concealed carry in a long list of venues (hospitals, government buildings, libraries, etc, etc). And most other businesses (at least here in St. Louis) that are not on that list have posted their own "no firearms" signs at the entrance. So you're OK as long as you just want to wander around outdoors with your concealed weapon, but you have to leave it in your car if you actually want to enter a building. And if someone steals YOUR gun you left in YOUR car and uses it to commit a murder, guess who's going to get hit with a lawsuit? I have concealable weapons but have not bothered to get a carry permit - it's not worth the effort.

beatrice 8 years, 10 months ago

jonas: carrying guns in plain sight is what they do here in Arizona, and one doesn't need a permit -- unless you want to conceal it. So, if you want to twirl it on on finger, no problem, but don't let them catch you sticking it in a handbag. Crazy.

Guns, sadly, are part of American culture. I feel that if one is to have a gun, they should be able to carry it in a holster or have it concealed. They should also have to go to training on the proper usage and storage of guns.

I would much rather see a total ban on handguns. Since that probably won't be happening in my lifetime, however, the least we can do is make sure people who have them know how to use them. In that, I guess I am in agreement with the NRA.

Manson 8 years, 10 months ago

Yes.

We could follow England's example and not allow guns....but as any Brit will tell you the theft and petty crime rate in England is outrageous. If a thief or criminal wants to rob someone and they know that weapons are not allowed what do they have to be scared of? The people commiting murders rarely have legit weapons in the first place!!!

Secondly, If you feel that more guns on the street make Kansas less safe think again. The people that want to get guns that aren't supposed to will get them. It's a nieve fantasy some people have that we can be a country without guns and it's such a crock.

cutny 8 years, 10 months ago

One More Bob, it's true that it's rare where a person carrying a gun legally commits a crime. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not, but it's even rarer when a person legally carrying a gun stops or prevents a crime. Yeah, what a great idea, let's have Amanda from the picture pull out some heat while the Qwik Shop is being robbed of a whopping $200 so she can open fire while 6 other customers get caught in the cross-fire. Brilliant reasoning Bob.

acg 8 years, 10 months ago

I say yes. As long as the carrier has been trained in proper use, cleaning, etc. and has a permit, why not? I, myself, can't carry a gun because traffic p*sses me off too much and I just know I would shoot some slow driving stoner idiot someday but for others, absolutely!

samsnewplace 8 years, 10 months ago

.........................................NO......................................

cutny 8 years, 10 months ago

uh...legally carrying a gun, not legally committing a crime. I get it. Don't pounce.

beatrice 8 years, 10 months ago

cutny: to legally commit a crime you don't need a gun, you just need to be a politician.

RonBurgandy 8 years, 10 months ago

It would be a great day when Joe Blow, who has been certified and passed all training courses for carrying a concealed weapon, loses his job and finds out his wife is cheating on him and snaps while buying a sandwich from the subway that I am in eating lunch and blows my head off along with everyone else in the place. But hey, as long as it's legal...

RonBurgandy 8 years, 10 months ago

Not that that couldn't happen anyways...

Manson 8 years, 10 months ago

"It would be a great day when Joe Blow, who has been certified and passed all training courses for carrying a concealed weapon, loses his job and finds out his wife is cheating on him and snaps while buying a sandwich from the subway that I am in eating lunch and blows my head off along with everyone else in the place. But hey, as long as it's legal..."-Ron Burgandy

Right It happens already. If it's gonna happen it's gonna happen. How bout the mail massacre in california last week. Unregistered gun user snaps and goes on a killing spree. Or the gay kid in arkansas? Illegal gun same result.

mefirst 8 years, 10 months ago

We won't let consenting adults of the same sex marry one another, but by gosh, we'll let anyone pack a gun. How freakin' STUPID! I'm sure Jesus is beaming with pride.

Go RIGHTWINGERS!!! Maybe, before too long, we'll start to see the impact of your mindless, short-sighted policies and ideas.

No wonder the rest of the world thinks we're a bunch of WACKOS.

gphawk89 8 years, 10 months ago

Carrying a weapon in plain sight might be legal in KS (I've not investigated this), but if anyone feels threatened when they see it, you're guilty of "brandishing" the weapon (which is NOT legal), whether you meant to or not. Try walking around downtown with a handgun and see how long it takes for someone to call the police.

jonas 8 years, 10 months ago

Ubermime: It was to the gym, not the store.

And it's a Tech-9, not a freak'n Desert Eagle!!!!

Linda Aikins 8 years, 10 months ago

Nudist - LOVED IT!!! What was your story from the other day?

I don't know. I guess I don't want to know that people on 10 highway are packing. They are awful enough with their bumpers.

Manson 8 years, 10 months ago

I am comfortable with the requirements that are proposed to allow a conceal and carry. Thanks for posting OMB!!

sunflower_sue 8 years, 10 months ago

Nudist, too funny!

Concealed weapons: "Oh no! Someone is stealing my purse. Why, I'll just get my gun and teach that little @#% a lesson! Oh wait, my gun is IN my purse. Silly me. Giggle" I say, carry a rifle on a rack in your truck window proclaiming to the world that you're a redneck and not afraid to shoot first and ask questions later. That'll scare them off.

Seriously, for the record: I'm a fine shot! :OP Let's not ban guns, that's silly. But my jury is still out on concealment.

badger 8 years, 10 months ago

Here in Texas, guns apparently outnumber people about four to one (though that statistic is five years old or so) and about half the people I know have concealed carry permits. I feel neither more nor less safe than I did in Kansas, because stupid people are stupid people no matter where you go, and there is no legal test, when one buys a gun, for "Are you a loony moron who isn't responsible enough to have houseplants, much less a gun?" Even concealed carry classes don't have a 'loony' disqualification clause.

I think the NRA is just another set of lobbyist hacks opposing all gun legislation for the sake of its being gun legislation. I've spent hours in debate with a lifetime NRA member who insists that there should be no waiting periods, no training requirements, no background checks, no barriers at all to the ability to walk into a store and walk out carrying a loaded handgun, any time, any place - and that you should be able to take that gun anywhere you please, be it a sporting event, a bar, or an elementary school. Why? "I just oppose all gun legislation on principle. That's why I'm a member of the NRA. So do they."

I favor training classes to qualify for concealed carry, and that you go back every five years or so for a recertification - just like you need an occasional recertification to perform CPR or First Aid, to demonstrate that you still have the skills and knowledge base to do it without hurting someone.

I also don't believe it's the average citizen's job to stop a crime in progress. If Amanda there is in the Kwik Stop and it's being robbed, very little is served by her whipping out a gun and escalating a robbery (which Kwik Stop employees are told not to resist, just let the thief have the money and go) into an armed conflict. If you're going to carry a weapon, it doesn't make you the sheriff of this here town, qualified to fight crime and dispense justice. It makes you legally allowed to carry a weapon for the purpose of protecting yourself.

And it really does need to be against the law to carry a gun in a venue that sells booze. Drinking and guns may mix for people who are very very responsible with both their alcohol and their guns, but that category doesn't hold a lot of people, and mostly it's just a recipe for disaster.

Most of the restaurants down here prohibit guns. Luby's, on the other hand, issued a statement essentially saying, "In 1991, had concealed carry been legal, many of the customers in the Killeen Luby's would have had their guns with them instead of locked in the trunks of their cars (several patrons that day had guns in their cars, legally locked away), and some of the loss of life might have been prevented. Luby's welcomes its legally armed customers."

Linda Endicott 8 years, 10 months ago

All those requirements would probably end up eliminating over half the state's population anyway...and do you have to prove that you've done all those things BEFORE you get a gun at all?

Manson, "If it's gonna happen, it's gonna happen"... I understand your reasoning, but with logic like that, why try and do what we can to stop child molesters, or anything else...it's gonna happen anyway, so why bother?

There's got to be a better solution...I just have no idea what the hell it is...

TOB...I agree with the other posters...carrying a gun in the wide open may be legal already, but try it and see what happens...that would be bad enough in Lawrence...see what happens if you dare to do it in a smaller town.

I don't think people being allowed to carry concealed weapons will stop crime at all...knowing that anyone could be carrying a gun won't keep criminals from using theirs...most of the world already conducts themselves as if everyone else around them might have a weapon...hasn't stopped anyone yet that I know of.

If someone is determined to commit a crime, knowing granny might be packing heat isn't going to carry any weight.

Linda Endicott 8 years, 10 months ago

Badger, I work in a field that requires me to maintain CPR skills. I also am required, by state law, to recertify those CPR skills every year.

How many people do you think would agree to recertify gun skills once a year? And even if they do agree initially, I think a lot of them, once that year is up, would just conveniently forget to show up.

Manson 8 years, 10 months ago

"I think the NRA is just another set of lobbyist hacks opposing all gun legislation for the sake of its being gun legislation. I've spent hours in debate with a lifetime NRA member who insists that there should be no waiting periods, no training requirements, no background checks, no barriers at all to the ability to walk into a store and walk out carrying a loaded handgun, any time, any place - and that you should be able to take that gun anywhere you please, be it a sporting event, a bar, or an elementary school. Why? "I just oppose all gun legislation on principle. That's why I'm a member of the NRA. So do they.""

Does this statement suggest that the NRA dosn't support requirements for hand guns? If that is so it's not true. The NRA is a big supporter of training requirements.The NRA dosn't want requirement-free laws. They want responsible gun owners.

calvin 8 years, 10 months ago

Yes they should. In other states, such as Oklahoma, you have to pass a safety test, have a background check, and have a permit to carry a concealed weapon. If Kansas had a similar process I would definately be in favor of such a law.

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

crazyks-I'm from a small town where the boys would go deer hunting in the morning before class and come to school with rifles in plain view in their vehicles. I have personally carried my blackpowder rifle into my former high school and shot it out the back door for a speech I was giving. I got permission to do so before hand, but none of the teachers gave me an odd look or anything carrying a gun case into the building. This also is a community where a majority of people hunt, some for sport and others for sustenance.
With the bill set up as it is, I say yea. They are requiring training and background checks before being given a permit.
Also, if you want to view the FBI's Uniformed Crime Reports, go to: www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm

Topside 8 years, 10 months ago

TOB-Was your ficticious friend a Barista?

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

TOB-Maybe you should hand your 'friend' a few copies of the NRA magazine and what they have to say about legislation and conceal & carry laws and the restrictions they support. Or direct him to the nra website as they spell things out there as well.

Applied_Logic 8 years, 10 months ago

First:

My ex-boyfriend, furious with the squirrels that chewed through a 2x4 to get back into the attic and drive us crazy, picked up his CO2 bb gun and proceeded to walk around the house looking for said squirrel. It was about 5pm in fall, dusk. Yes, I told him it wasn't a bright idea. The next thing we know, the cops are all over, he's on the ground in hand cuffs, his teenage daughter is screaming and all $%** broke loose. "A crazy man was running around the neighborhood with a .45", was the call the cops got. No one actually saw him shoot the bb gun because squirrels are smart and it was hiding, but he was sited for it anyway. It's illegal to shoot a bb gun in Olathe City limits. At the time, we lived on the west side in one of the oldest parts of town. Given that reaction, I can only imagine what would occur if someone was seen carrying a real gun!

Second: I own guns and don't want the right to do so taken away. Conceal and carry? Can't come up with enough arguments for a yes or a no solid vote. Who, why? I mean the criminals do it all the time just watch the news. This came up before and as a part time pizza deliverer many drivers thought it was a good idea. I didn't for me because I would over think it and get shot! On the other hand, tow truck drivers/cabbies/bank tellers? Brain hurts....

avhjmlk 8 years, 10 months ago

Ever seen the movie "Crash" out for Oscars this year? Watch it before you decide that having guns out and about to "deter crime" is a great idea...

Ceallach 8 years, 10 months ago

I agree with what Calvin said at 9:51, and many others said earlier. I do need to clarify one thing -- some grammys prefer a glock to a blade :)

Having taken care of the Q of the day. This was just posted on the Carnegie building addition thread from yesterday.


For those who have wondered why the Carnegie addition, in order to be modernized on the interior, had to be a modern design on the exterior. The following link, by a local architect, is an example of how the exterior of Carnegie might look if one takes the time to creatively design an addition plan that respects the historical nature of the original building and not just "build it in the style of our time."

http://lithiumlite.com/CarnegieNORTH.jpg...

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

Do not start comparing life with movies. And yes I saw Crash, thought that it was a very good movie but in no way did it make me rethink my views on firearms.

beatrice 8 years, 10 months ago

nudist has, indeed, been on a role lately. Keep it up!

um, I mean, keep telling good stories.

If my weapon of choice is an aluminum baseball bat, would I need a permit? Also, how would I conceal it? Handbags are too small, and has anyone - besides Pleather Bob of course - ever tried to conceal a baseball bat in their pants? It isn't easy.

Sigmund 8 years, 10 months ago

I'm with Amanda, she should be allowed to carry a firearm to protect herself. I am for a law that allows concealed carry of firearms with the usual age, background, certification restrictions. I would add a restriction that it would be illegal to carry a weapon if you are over the OWI DWI limit (with similar penalties), and make it clear that private property owners (businesses, landlords, etc.) have the freedom to restrict or allow firearms on their property.

Applied_Logic 8 years, 10 months ago

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21902

Worth the read if you believe gun control is the cure to our crime problems. I personally think a judicial system that is over-worked, over-crowded and under enforced is a bigger problem.

bankboy119 8 years, 10 months ago

Didn't see Crash, heard it wasn't worth it. Still think we should be able to carry arms. Shoot the terrorists when they show up.

acg 8 years, 10 months ago

TOB I loved your story. It was awesome. Lilchick, I was also raised in a hunting environment. That's why guns are no big deal to me, either. It cracks me up the way people freak out over guns. "Oh no, don't have a gun you're going to accidentally shoot someone" "For God's sake, think of the children" blah blah blah. Oh and crazyks, I live in a small town. We have this chick who walks around town all the time with her guns holstered on her hips. No one gives her a second glance. It's no big deal because no one makes it a big deal. It's only when the do-gooders get involved and want to save us from ourselves that things become a big deal.

CanadianPassport 8 years, 10 months ago

Amanda, I love you. You had me at "NRA"... you had me at "NRA."

Crash was not that good. I'm dumbfounded that it made the Oscar list. It was like Magnolia without the crappy ending.

Ceallach 8 years, 10 months ago

TOB: I can only tell you that he is Extraordinarily Motivated and Endeavors to Maintain the historical character of the building while Ensuring Mobility concerns are met. How's that? ;)

Linda Aikins 8 years, 10 months ago

Thanks for reposting. That is awesome! Nudist, it's so nice of you to bare yourself to us through this story!

beatrice 8 years, 10 months ago

A_L: "I mean the criminals do it all the time"

Are you saying that criminals conceal weapons, so we should too? If a criminal robs a bank, should we then all be given the right to rob a bank? As my mother would say - And if the criminals went and jumped off the bridge, would you want to do that too?

Seriously, we shouldn't try to base our laws on allowing us to do things the criminals do in their acts of breaking laws and being criminals. Criminals conceal their weapons because, well, they are criminals. They do not have the right to do this, and they are breaking the law when they do. Even if they had the right to carry a concealed weapon, once they start using the gun to commit a crime they become a criminal.

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

Beatrice- do we not have a right to protect ourselves legally from those who are threatening us through illegal means? If someone is trying to harm me or my family how do you suggest I react so as not to lose my life or the lives of those I care about without becoming a criminal?

Applied_Logic 8 years, 10 months ago

No, Beatrice, what I was saying is 'criminals are just that, criminals. They carry regardless of legality so whether it is legal or not isn't a valid argument where crime is concerned. Would a bank teller or delivery driver with the right to conceal make the robber think twice about commiting the crime in the first place? Would knowing that the person one is passing on the street might be carrying have a positive or negative effect on the over all crime? Logic says it should, like children knowing they will get punished, but in practice that's what our judicial system is supposed to achieve and isn't. So, would it really make any difference at all either way? Someone who has grown up with guns and is comfortable with them would feel safer while those that fear them won't.

badger 8 years, 10 months ago

crazyks said:

"How many people do you think would agree to recertify gun skills once a year? And even if they do agree initially, I think a lot of them, once that year is up, would just conveniently forget to show up."

Actually, I wasn't thinking once a year, I was thinking every five years. And if your concealed carry license is only good for five years, and you have to pass a recert class to get the next one (even just a one-or-two-hour refresher), then I don't see how they could just 'forget' to show up. Most people interested in concealed carry permits are going to be people who are concerned about following the law. It would cost more than just having one class and issuing the licenses for life, but not that much more, really.

omb - you have a point. I am in the People's Republic of Austin, the Lawrence of the Lone Star State. I forget sometimes that people here are only vaguely representative of the rest of Texas. I'd say that roughly 85% of the restaurants and coffeehouses I frequent have 'no weapons' signs of some sort.

Oddly, the one time I'd want to carry a gun, it's flat illegal in almost every state. The only reason I'd want to have a gun is to deal with animals while hiking. Nothing says to a javelina, "Drop that terrier," like a bullet in the ribcage (shooting them in the head just irritates them unless you hit an eye), and I've run across deer that feral dog packs have brought down even in maintained state and national parks (where we do most of our hiking and where firearms are prohibited by law).

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

Well said A_L....the link you listed under the article didn't work for me...could you repost it?

beatrice 8 years, 10 months ago

(I just can't help myself)

bankboy: I thought we are shooting the terrorists over there so we don't have to shoot them here. How silly of you to forget. I guess it is too bad you weren't in New York on 9-11, otherwise you could have taken that plane right out of the sky with your .38 Special.

If you believe the terrorists are going to give you the chance to shoot them as they come at you over the hill with the sun behind them like the Germans do in old WWII movies, I suggest you rethink your defense strategy.

Did anyone see the movie Crash with Holly Hunter from a few years ago? Wonderfully weird flick of people who get their jollies from watching and taking part in car crashes. I recommend it for those who enjoy bizarre films like Blue Velvet and Happiness.

Applied_Logic 8 years, 10 months ago

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21902

you've got to cut and paste, think my aol has something against inserting links and I'm too lazy to make it work today.

Topside 8 years, 10 months ago

I hear that TOB but there used to be a Topless doughnut shop in Ft. Collins Colorado. It was called "Debbie Does Doughnuts." If that place can't make it work what hope is there for anywhere else?

jonas 8 years, 10 months ago

bankboy: Wha? Terrorists?

Godwin's Law (also Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies) is an adage in Internet culture originated by Mike Godwin on Usenet in 1990 that states:

    As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis (Terrorists) or Hitler (Bin Ladin)  approaches 1.

There is a tradition of protocol in many Usenet newsgroups that once such a comparison is made, the thread in which the comment was posted is over and whoever mentioned the Nazis (Terrorists) has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress.

It is considered poor form to arbitrarily raise such a comparison with the motive of ending the thread. There is a widely recognized codicil that any such deliberate invocation of Godwin's Law will be unsuccessful.

All parenthetical reference mine.

beatrice 8 years, 10 months ago

lilchick: Huh? Where did you get the notion that I am against self-defense? You have jumped to a conclusion. Look at my first post for today and you will see that if we are to have guns then I'm not opposed to a law allowing concealed weapons. Those laws tend to require training, and I'm in favor of that. I'm just enjoying the discussion as to the justifications for having guns, whether hidden or out in the open.

Topside 8 years, 10 months ago

Hey, Canadian Passport...Is there and echo in here?

Does a violin case count as Concealed? It definitely has to be carried. I could do some serious regulating if I had me a Tommy Gun, see.

Hong_Kong_Phooey 8 years, 10 months ago

Given how badly people drive after they have had more than eight hours of training, it scares the hell out of me to think of those same people carrying around a gun. Yikes! Half the people on this board alone cannot figure out how to use a roundabout!

As for the "Mass. St. may have been safer that night" argument. Bull. As has been stated in several previous articles, the shooter was not the only person with a gun that night. Apparently the idea that everyone was running for cover - not trying to identify, or shoot, the shooter - has not entered people's heads. Let's say you were down on Mass that night and were standing outside Louise's, Fatso's, Harbor Lights, Red Lyon, Replay, or any of the other establishments that have crowds outside at that time. Would you truly want someone who has possibly been drinking and only received 8 hours of instruction firing shots at someone they THOUGHT might be the shooter?? Oops, because they had been drinking, or were just plain scared and shakey, they missed the shooter! They did, however, manage to hit little Jimmy & Susie as they leave the Pita Pit. They also hit Mary Jane Rottencrotch standing outside Louise's talking with her friends. Congratulations, you just made Mass a much safer place...

Linda Endicott 8 years, 10 months ago

I live in a smaller town than Lawrence, but not nearly as small as say, Rantoul...I wasn't really talking about more rural areas, where carrying guns may not be considered such a big deal.

Around here, it would be considered a big deal, believe me...if I walked down the street with a gun on my hip, perfectly legal, I'd have the cops all over me in a heartbeat, thinking I was up to no good. I'd find myself on the ground and handcuffed...and I don't think this is the only city that would do that, either.

It's really a non-issue for me, as I don't hunt, have never had the desire to (quite frankly, it's cheaper to buy the meat at a grocery store), and even if I had a gun, I don't think I could ever make myself fire it at another person, even to save my own life. I just couldn't do it.

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

beatrice, sorry! After going back and re-reading I see what you meant to convey. Just got a little overzealous about something I care about!

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

A_L-I got it to work this time. Thanks for the link.

Applied_Logic 8 years, 10 months ago

No problem. Been researching most of the morning and the argument goes on and on forever it seems with data for days supporting both sides of the issue. If one takes personal emotion/up bringing out of the debate how do they decide which way to turn?

glockenspiel 8 years, 10 months ago

LJWorld went to BORDERS to get opinions on conceiled carry and they happened to find a young woman that just happened to be an NRA member? Thats freakin awesome...

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

It is tough once you remove personal emotion from the situation. Personally, I would love it if we lived in a world where firearms were needed for provided food and fun only. Unfortunatly, we don't. Even if we take firearms away from law abiding citizens, the criminals will still have weapons and use them. I feel that education for all, regardless of what your feelings on firearms is would help greatly.

robinrander 8 years, 10 months ago

Would carrying a gun really prevent someone from being a victim of a crime, or would it just maybe, and I do mean maybe, prevent someone from being a victim of a certain level of crime? Because carrying a concealed weapon isn't going to make it less likely that someone is going to attack you. I can think of a lot of ways to fend off an attacker that are still going to be effective, but less dangerous than a concealed weapon. What if my attacker gets my gun? Now I've just armed my rapist? What if I shoot and miss the attacker and hit a bystander? Do you ever hear about someone who died from a stray macing?

Applied_Logic 8 years, 10 months ago

Is this being put to public vote or are all-mighty officials going to decide based on what they think the public wants? Should it be on a ballot?

jstevens1979 8 years, 10 months ago

What is this the old west? Are we going to start settling our disputes with a old fashioned gun battle in the middle of Mass. street. Grow up people. Police carry guns, and thats the way it should stay.

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

I think it should be put on a ballot. I feel that this is something that we all should get a say in.

robinrander-that is why training is so important. Not just safety but also courses provided by groups like IDPA which focus on self defense situations with handguns. With the right training, you will be capable of handling yourself in almost any situation.

CanadianPassport 8 years, 10 months ago

Damn you, bourbon! Great minds think alike, Topside. That being said, honor dictates that we have a duel to see who gets to ask for Amanda's hand in marriage. 10 paces, in front of the Granada, after the next hiphop show.

BTW, is it time to officially retire the "You had me at ..." phrase?

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

Oh, and IDPA stands for International Defensive Pistol Association.

jstevens1979 8 years, 10 months ago

Bob, thats why its against the law for ordinary citizens to carry guns.

jstevens1979 8 years, 10 months ago

Bob, I think you should just plain read more often.

CanadianPassport 8 years, 10 months ago

It's against international law for North Korea to launch a nuclear strike against South Korea. So, I guess all our troops can go home now. After all, the North Koreans would be violating the law if they attacked. Problem solved.

badger 8 years, 10 months ago

robinrander -

It's questions like yours, when I ask them of myself, that provide me lots of reasons not to carry a gun for self-defense.

I think that before anyone decides to own a gun, much less carry one, he should ask himself these questions:

  1. How much time am I willing to dedicate each week to this gun, including range practice and cleaning?
  2. What would induce me to take this gun out of its case and load it?
  3. At what proficiency level will I feel I'm ready to fire the gun outside of a controlled target range?
  4. Under what circumstances would I point this gun at another person?
  5. Having pointed the gun at another person, what would make me pull the trigger?
  6. If I shoot someone, will I keep pulling the trigger until he stops moving?
  7. What will I do in effort to keep my gun from being used as a weapon against me?
  8. What will be my personal, moral, ethical, and legal ramifications if I kill an assailant with this gun?
  9. What will be my personal, moral, ethical, and legal ramifications if I miss my assailant and kill an innocent bystander with this gun?
  10. What is missing in my life that will be provided by owning or carrying this gun?

Each of these questions has several right answers, but if you haven't really thought them through, you have no business whatsoever being out there with a firearm.

jstevens1979 8 years, 10 months ago

Whats the point of having courts and laws if we can just hide a gun in our pocket and shot someone whenever it pleases us? Self defense. Are you kidding me.

assistant1234 8 years, 10 months ago

Bottom line, we have a right to bear arms, and that right goes beyond trying to stop the common criminal - it's about the "common man" having the ability to stand up to oppressive government. You may think that is no big deal in this day and age, but an examination of certain regimes in the Middle East, Asia, and South America should make you think twice. The right to bear arms is vitally important, and our founding fathers realized this. The idea that only military and police should be able to carry firearms is ridiculous. Frankly I would think all the liberal weenies in Lawrence would jealously guard their right to bear arms, seeing how they view our President as the "biggest terrorist in the world".

CanadianPassport 8 years, 10 months ago

I don't think we should equate legalized concealed weapons with legalized spontaneous, arbitrary public executions, that's a little bit of a leap of logic.

bankboy119 8 years, 10 months ago

The terrorist thing was suppose to be for laughs, you know, haha okay stupid. Of course it won't be a laughing matter when a Dem takes office, let's Mexico run us over, and say you have the right to plot against America all you want and we won't do anything about it because, well, you haven't actually blown us to hell yet.

jstevens1979 8 years, 10 months ago

It hard enough for people to drive a car. Then came the cell phone. Now we have people driving and talking on cell phones at the same time. The next step is a car that can drive its self so we can talk on our cell phones and brandish our concelled weapons at people.

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

This is not a perfect society!!!! By keeping law abiding citizens from owning and carrying firearms, we are put in a position where we have little recourse. Criminals will continue to have and carry firearms illegally. How can one protect themselves and their family against an illegal firearm?
Yes, education should be mandatory, and probably more then 8 hours. Badger, you brought up some wonderful points that should be considered before owning a firearm. Firearms are not for everyone, but allow those who are responsible enough to abide by the laws the choice to protect themselves and possibly you one day.

Kathleen Christian 8 years, 10 months ago

Though it is our right constitutionally - it doesn't make sense to carry a concealed weapon - because if someone were to use it even to protect themselves what are the chances they won't be charged with a crime - even a misdemeaner of hurting someone even though that person was intent to do bodily harm. It's a no win situation. I think it would cause crime/murders to rise. Since KC passed their law there has been more murders last year since the previous year when the law was not in affect. Take a lesson!

Applied_Logic 8 years, 10 months ago

Wonder how many times I can find, "Take away the legal right to own a gun and only criminals will have them".

Badger: excellent!

There is a reason the word Militia is still used in Firearm law.

2nd Amendment per the Constitution (in case it still matters to some) A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

karolynk 8 years, 10 months ago

I'm surrounded by idiots carrying concealed weapons in Virginia and not so concealed weapons in DC and Maryland, two of the nation's murder capitals, and it would seem that as a native Kansan there are just as many idiots out there who want to carry guns. Why don't we let the cops carry the weapons and the rest of us obey the laws? But then I guess I'm expecting too much of ignorant people who helped elect the likes of corrupt, lying hypocrites such as kline, bush, cheney, roberts, and brownback.

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

A_L, you could probably find the statement more times than I drive 'round a roundabout each week! It is a logical conclusion though. And looking at Great Britian is a great example of the statement. Or at least the fact that without firearms, citizens have very limited means to protect themselves.

avhjmlk 8 years, 10 months ago

Also, know that Kansas does pretty badly compared to the rest of the country in terms of crime per capita. Don't believe me, check with Dr. Harold Hodgkinson.

jstevens1979 8 years, 10 months ago

So, I guess I am going to have to just take the next step and invent a portable nuke I can carry around with me so if anyone pulls their gun on me I can defend myself.

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

No need to invent such a thing...they are called suitcase bombs.

Applied_Logic 8 years, 10 months ago

I want one of those pistol grenade launchers he used in The babysitter, $%$% I think that was the movie, anyway at the beginning Vin Diesel shoots a copter out of the sky with it. That way I can get rid of the people that come to a dead stop at an empty round about!

Applied_Logic 8 years, 10 months ago

Lilchick, you and my daughter would get along great. She's a member of NRA and very political for her age.

jstevens1979 8 years, 10 months ago

Yes AL, we should all carry guns so we can shoot people that stop at the yeild sign at an empty round about, IDIOTS!

bankboy119 8 years, 10 months ago

karol, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say...you really don't read the news or have any idea what you're talking about. If you'd like to slander people then use some facts. Take my post about Hillary yesterday, I used actions that she has taken that cause me to dislike her. Don't just lump all the conservatives into one bunch. Just because one screws up doesn't mean they all do.

Applied_Logic 8 years, 10 months ago

JStevens has NO sense of humor...duh joke

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

Thank you! (I think!!!) ;) I am very active in teaching shooting safety and coaching a youth shooting team. I am in my early 20's and believe I have a right to protect myself and feel safest with a firearm. Knives are a close second since I am a fairly good shot when it comes to throwing them as well as handling them in general.

jonas 8 years, 10 months ago

assistant1234: You're reference to the purpose of the 2nd amendment was why I said, in my first post, that the purpose is now totally moot. Due to armament build-up and weapons technology, it is rediculous to think that providing us with the right to have concealed handguns or sport guns would enable the people of the US to stand up to our government, should it ever become oppressive enough to warrant such desperate actions. If the spirit of the second amendment were to be followed according to its original intent, people would need to be allowed the right to carry rocket launchers, mortor cannons, and maybe some tanks, battleships, surface to air missiles, and a jet or two.

Wanna see if THAT bill gets passed?

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

I will agree to that! Lighten up JStevens! I care very much about firearms, but know how to take a joke! Besides, we are debating on a website. If you are really passionate about something, get out and do something about it. It does no good to sit around and bash others views in most cases.

beatrice 8 years, 10 months ago

bankboy: "The terrorist thing was suppose to be for laughs, you know, haha okay stupid. Of course it won't be a laughing matter when a Dem takes office, let's Mexico run us over, and say you have the right to plot against America all you want and we won't do anything about it because, well, you haven't actually blown us to hell yet."

So that explains it -- bankboy has just been joking with us all this time! I have missed the intended humor and just thought he was a self-righteous right-winger art-hating promise-keeper with a head so clouded by his love of President Bush to actually think that virtually half the voting populace really does want to destroy the country and give it piecemeal to the commies, or the Mexicans, or the Taliban, or the .... It has just been a joke after all! Oops, my bad.

lilchick: no harm, no foul. : )

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

I wasn't referencing jonas' comment, but A-P's comment...sorry for any confusion!

Applied_Logic 8 years, 10 months ago

yw. She's 16, very up on her constitutional rights, scared they won't be there at all by the time she's my age. Loves to go shooting with her cousins. Wants her hunter's safety class this year. We collect knifes, swords and old guns. As well as hunting rifles. Education really is the key! She has never thought guns were 'cool' or toys. The only hand guns around here are bb. If I ever get property where we can build a shooting range I might want one, but until then I really don't see a reason to own it. Just my 'asking myself the important questions' and answers I came up with for me.

jstevens1979 8 years, 10 months ago

You people are all Idiots. AL I was agreeing with you stupid. I guess I better watch what I say, you rednecks might unconceal your firearms and shoot me right. I am doing something, I am sitting on my ass and complaining on a website, sound familiar?

Applied_Logic 8 years, 10 months ago

Yes AL, we should all carry guns so we can shoot people that stop at the yeild sign at an empty round about, IDIOTS!

Am I the only one to take that as him calling us idiots? I mean he clarified it:Posted by jstevens1979 (anonymous) on February 9, 2006 at 12:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

You people are all Idiots.

perhaps, just maybe, you weren't clear in agreeing?

jstevens1979 8 years, 10 months ago

Bob, how about you try something different. Quit quoting people, its getting old.

Applied_Logic 8 years, 10 months ago

but JS, that makes it easier for us 'stupid' people to know instantly what he's talking about without having to scroll back up. Rednecks, remember?

jstevens1979 8 years, 10 months ago

I was stating that people that come to a complete stop at a round about are idiots. I am walking away from this now. I have found something better to do, maybe all of you should do the same.

jstevens1979 8 years, 10 months ago

One last zinger bob, I just call them as I see them.

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

TOB, I am going to be married here in March, so no dueling over me!

Also, JStevens, not all of us feel "I am doing something, I am sitting on my ass and complaining on a website, sound familiar?" I teach safety to youth about firearms and archery. I have worked at summer camps as a range instructor. I have attended national matches with a team that I coached and hope to do so again this year. I do everything in my power to ensure that my children will be able to shoot for fun and be able to protect themselves. What do you do to advocate your views?

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

D*mn, JStevens left before getting to my statement using his own words!!!!

Applied_Logic 8 years, 10 months ago

Well, this stupid idiot must get office cleaned up and organized.

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

Have fun...and I don't think you are a stupid idiot. I enjoyed your links and thoughts on this subject. I love a good debate, as long as everyone uses facts that they are able to reference.

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

Yes blue73harley, all kids should go through firearms safety program of some sort, hunters ed, NRA, 4-H, anything, regardless of whether you own firearms or not! Just my opinion!

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

YES! Onward to 200! I don't know what to post now that the high strung people appear to be quiet for now. OH, please, someone debate with me! ;)

Liberty 8 years, 10 months ago

If you want an informative quick overview of some of the legal system that we now have and how it enslaves you by not understanding the legal system, to help you understand whether a conceal carry permit is what you need or the Constitution/2nd amendment, download and listen to these mp3 files for your education and entertainment. These are about 1 hr a piece of the Frank Whalen show on Republic Broadcasting Network.

http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Whalen/0602/20060209_Thu_FrankWhalen3.mp3 http://mp3.rbnlive.com/Whalen/0602/20060209_Thu_FrankWhalen4.mp3

badger 8 years, 10 months ago

Aw, the bobs drove off jstevens while I was eating my lunch!

I wanted to respond to this:

"It hard enough for people to drive a car. Then came the cell phone. Now we have people driving and talking on cell phones at the same time. The next step is a car that can drive its self so we can talk on our cell phones and brandish our concelled weapons at people."

By saying that if you're brandishing it, sweetcheeks, it's hardly concealed. It's not even concelled.

You bobs hog up all the crazy.

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

If it's in a gun rack, is that brandishing my firearm? Just a question....

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

Lets just say for fun, a Remington 700 rifle, an old HR 12 gauge shot gun, and a nice little glock hanging up in the window. On the way back from hunting of course! I prefer anything that shoots and makes the Brady group nervous!

Kontum1972 8 years, 10 months ago

"I'd like to be able to protect myself if someone is trying to kill me."...quote Amanda.

hmmm....let's see....how would u know someone is trying to kill you? In the first place if some wants to kill you they will do it,... there is no trying involved if they have done it before it is a no brainer with them. First blood is always the hardest, to pull a gun, point it at someone and pull the trigger and watch them explode in front of you and gush blood all over the place pretty tough job something you will always carry with you plus all the explaining to the authorities etc. Yeah,its easy to say you will kill someone but if you have never actually done it...it's all HOT air...trying to kill you give me a break Calamity Jane.....you forget somebody did get killed the other night there was no trying involved and i bet if you did draw down on someone you would close your eyes when u pulled the trigger because you have never tasted blood before...if you don't believe me ask some combat veterans what it is like to actually kill another person and have to do it again and again and again.

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

Amanda didn't say she wanted to kill someone who was attacking her, she just wants to be able to protect herself. I trust my shooting abilities enough that if I were in danger, I would be able to shoot someone in the leg to allow me enough time to get to safety. I would never want to take another's life, but if it came to protecting my life and the lives of my family, I would do anything I had to do.

Tony Kisner 8 years, 10 months ago

A well armed populace is a polite populace. I think if everyone was carrying a side arm in clear site, little slights like tailgating or not holding doors open would soon diminish.

Janet Lowther 8 years, 10 months ago

You know, if you think the NRA is anti-gun control, you really ought to read the Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership web site! They make the NRA look like they should be called Gun Control Inc.

Their basic proposition is that you cannot have a genocide 'till the prospective victims are disarmed, and anything that enables a malefactor to know you have a gun would facilitate your disarmament and subsequent victimization.

Ceallach 8 years, 10 months ago

Anyone who says "you people are all idiots" needs to quietly hang around and learn the proper way of addressing people on OTS.

"YDP are idiots" would have been the acceptable wording. No doubt he would still have been hammered, but that's just how WDP are :-p

jen82 8 years, 10 months ago

I personally do not think carrying guns are a good idea. People get drunk, people get angry. If you're carrying a gun, it's not a good combination. Accidents can happen as well, and it's not possible to see if someone's responsible enough to keep the gun out of the reach of children from a background check.

I also disagree with Amanda that guns prevent crime.

However, I do think that probably most violent crime involving guns doesn't happen with guns that were legally purchased.

Not allowing people to carry might cut down on accidents or shootings stemming from arguments/drunkeness, but it will not necessarily cut down on crime.

(However it should be noted that many of the murders in KC last year were considered "arguments that got out of control." Though I can't say how many of those murders were commited using guns.)

Linda Aikins 8 years, 10 months ago

Gracious sakes! Time for one of my clever anagrams:

ID I TO ID ITO IDIOT DOIT I DO I IT

Smarmy_Schoolmarm 8 years, 10 months ago

Did you hear about the sadist who was into bestiality and necrophelia?

He gave it up when he realized he was beating a dead horse.

Why the same tired subjects over and over and over again?

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

Are people aware of the roots of gun control? Just wondering how many of you know that it was initially put into effect to disarm minorities...

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

Here are some interesting sites about the history of gun control laws:

www.firearmsandliberty.com/cramer.racism.html

www.coradpress.com/gun_control.htm

www.federalobserver.com/archive.php?aid=3312

badger 8 years, 10 months ago

lilchick said:

"Are people aware of the roots of gun control? Just wondering how many of you know that it was initially put into effect to disarm minorities..."

And the institution of legally formalized marriage was initially a contract mechanism for the transfer of property.

Things don't have to be defined by their origins.

beatrice 8 years, 10 months ago

"I just call them as I see them."

Like that thing there - it is a cat. I know because it goes "moo."

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

It's not just the origins of this law, look back to when the Gun Control Act of 1968 was passed. Avowed anti-gun journalist Robert Sherrill frankly admitted that the Gun Control Act of 1968 was "passed not to control guns but to control Blacks." Or look at 1994 when the Clinton Administration wanted to ban firearms in Public Housing Projects. It was rejected thankfully, but that targeted poor people in our society.
If it were just the origins, it could be waved away, but it isn't.

guardBack 8 years, 10 months ago

Things are almost never defined by their origins and you know it. The Second Amendment, for example, states clearly that, "A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." This law isn't about a militia or any organized force whatsoever. It's about whether or not any random citizen may walk around town with a .357 Magnum in a shoulder holster.

If the people who so passionately fight against gun control were under some kind of state, county or local organization, I would be completely anti-gun control. But that's not what the issue is about. It's about whether or not I feel safer knowing that at any moment, you could pull a gun from under your coat and fire it in my children's general direction. If I had some assurance that you were trained in the use of said weapon, I would have a much smaller problem putting the lives of those I love in your hands.

Without some kind of guarantee as to a gun carryer's effective use of any weapon, of any kind, is an unacceptable risk for any parent to take. It asks everyone to trust you. And to trust the hundreds of people who buy guns everyday. We don't. We can't. Furthermore, you don't either. If you trusted other people, you wouldn't want the gun in the first place.

robinrander 8 years, 10 months ago

"robinrander, my 8:44a.m. post contained links to several recent news stories about people defending themselves using firearms."

Yes, thank you, I had assumed that's why you posted them. And that's why I didn't really feel the need to read them. My point earlier was that all of those people were still victims of crime, despite the fact that they were all armed.

I am a young woman in my mid 20s, so I often worry about being a victim of crime. But I also spend a lot of time thinking of ways I can defend myself that don't involve the possibility of me putting a hole in my foot, or another person for that matter. Regardless of whether I have a gun in my purse, if someone is going to attack me, they're going to attack me. Me having a gun would only increase the odds that someone dies.

Personally, I just feel a lot better about that knowing that no one is ever going to be able to turn my own hands on me. And in the community setting, I feel a lot better knowing that Trigger McNRAerson walking down the street next to me isn't going to pull out a gun and waste the first kid on the subway who comes up and asks for $5. Silly me, I just don't see the safety in any law that's going to increase the risk of a bullet flying through the air.

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

So, from the 1700's to 1994, all of those years were gun control's origins? I'm confused. I would think that the origins would be: origin (Ã'r-jn, r-) KEY
NOUN: The point at which something comes into existence or from which it derives or is derived.

Looks to me like a pattern......

I'm all for enacting regulations to ensure that citizens wanting to arm themselves do so in an intelligent and educated manner, hence the training. Very similar to driver licenses. My point was that typically, gun control has been a means by which to control minorities, here and elsewhere in the world.

LesterBurnham 8 years, 10 months ago

I love the NRA! It keeps the whiny liberals from getting any power.

egypt 8 years, 10 months ago

I think the recent events infront of the Granada club should tell you what happens when you give people guns.

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

That's what happen when people break the law, there is a difference!

RonBurgandy 8 years, 10 months ago

The problem I see is that not everyone is responsible. They could very much get passed all the hurdles and complete a zillion hours of training (hyperbole). That doesn't ensure that an innocent person will never be hurt by this person being irresponsible. What if the weapon was in the person's coat hanging on the back of a chair and some kid takes it out of the coat and starts playing with it w/o the gun owner knowing and BAM his brains are all over the restaurant. All b/c there is a small chance that someone might attack you somewhere.

I am pretty sure (although not entirely) that everyone on this board is probably responsible enough to handle a concealed weapon. But there are always people who are not, and what if, someone dies innocently by a mistake made by the gun owner. Is that life worth it?

RonBurgandy 8 years, 10 months ago

Only if they are a breastfeeding woman married to another woman sitting in the middle of a roundabout right?

craigers 8 years, 10 months ago

Life is precious in every case Ron, but we could play the what if game about a lot of things. Part of being a responsible carrying citizen would be to not just leave your gun in a coat that isn't on you. That is just irresponsible. There are ankle holsters that work quite nice and you don't have to use your coat. There are a lot of options for the people to use. I will not deny that accidents happen but the possibility of accidents shouldn't deter this law. The possibility of dying in a car wreck is probably just the same (pure speculation) but you still get in your car, don't you and you probably put your kids in the car too? My point being is that there will be some bad seeds that get through, but this would allow those who want to carry and protect themselves do so. If you don't want to then don't and you won't ever have that problem of having that life on your hands. You weren't the one being irresponsible with the gun.

craigers 8 years, 10 months ago

Am I a bad person because I don't like fruitcake?

Now I am just doing my part to get to 200+!!!

RonBurgandy 8 years, 10 months ago

100% off subject (so this will probably be removed) but KU made ESPN's Power 16.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/powerranking?week=14&pollId=1

RonBurgandy 8 years, 10 months ago

How many more till we reach that plateau?

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

It's about time KU got there! Thanks for the update ronb!

lilchick 8 years, 10 months ago

Now if we could just crack all of the polls!

craigers 8 years, 10 months ago

I prefer brownies and cookies!!! A friend of mine bought a fruitcake and let it sit for a couple of weeks and it got better. How do they get better with age?

RonBurgandy 8 years, 10 months ago

Craigers says: "My point being is that there will be some bad seeds that get through"

This is what scares the ----ton out of me. I feel just as safe now as I would walking around with a gun strapped to my ankle (which I would have plenty of time to get to while someone already has a gun pointed at the back of my head.)

RonBurgandy 8 years, 10 months ago

Fruitcake...mmmm...wait...gross...wait...mmmm. GO ROUNDABOUTS! Uh oh, all caps, I must be yelling.

I like the idea of KU being 11-2 in the league when we play Texas. Stupid Texas, why do they get to have everything?

craigers 8 years, 10 months ago

See Ron, I don't feel that a responsible carrier would try to pull a gun in that situation. I think when they are trained they will know when to pull it out and when not to. Hey we could use that one on another question of the day about birth control!!! My definition of trained is not just when to use the gun but when not to even go for it.

Matt Woodard 8 years, 10 months ago

I am really not opposed to or in favor of this law being passed. I do agree with one_more_bob (first post) that Kansas should allow it's citizens an option that is available in most states. Not often do you hear of a person who is legally carrying a firearm committing violent crimes...perhaps we can use the roundabouts for target practice.

Topside: BTW, I think the movie was The Whole Nine Yards "You know, I can't think of nothing finer than a fine naked woman holding a gun. And you just all kinds of fine, ain't ya?" ...and she is.

BunE 8 years, 10 months ago

Why conceal it? Wear it on your hip.

I am a gun owner but there are way to many kooks out there that can pass a background check.

Also, some of you sound like you actually want to shoot someone. Are you stupid, amoral or just mean?

jstevens1979 8 years, 10 months ago

I came back just to give you some more material. And to use my favorite word to describe the folks that have been here all day. IDIOTS. Feel free to quote me on that.

RonBurgandy 8 years, 10 months ago

Well, I agree with that statement craigers. But what people do during training and what they do when they are in life threatening situations doesn't always match up. That is my concern. Heaven forbid a small child is killed in the crossfire. I mean, look at the concern that was raised when Bryce was hit by that minivan. I can't imagine how the community would react if a situation like that happened with a firearm.

DAMMIT BOB, WHY DON'T YOU GIVE ME YOUR PHONE NUMBER AND ADDRESS SO WE CAN TALK THIS OVER!!! Haha, that always gives me a laugh. Thanks John.

craigers 8 years, 10 months ago

200!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am the 200th customer.

badger 8 years, 10 months ago

lilchick -

The 1994 effort was defeated. I doubt that those who proposed it thought to themselves, "Hey, what can I do to keep guns out of the hands of black people?"

It's not the fault of gun control that poor people are most likely to be exposed to gun violence, or that poor people are less likely to be white. To imply that the law restricting guns in housing projects was racially motivated is a little disingenuous.

In reality, the math goes more like this:

Gosh, a lot of people died in gun violence last year. We should do something about that. Which population had the most deaths? Poor people? Well, who was shooting them? Other poor people, huh? Well, perhaps we can do something to restrict violent poor people's access to guns. Where did most of the offenders live? In housing projects. Well, then, people in housing projects shouldn't have guns.

I don't agree with that math, but it does show that it can be perfectly possible for legislation that would affect a minority to be proposed without racial motivations.

Yes, better law would have put more cops in the projects, or done something to address gang and drug violence in itself instead of the weapons people use to commit the violence, or perhaps (NOVEL IDEA!) done something to improve the living conditions of those in poverty.

But that law didn't pass - in part because people recognized that it would have racial implications, I imagine. Your argument seems to be that because gun control law has (like many laws in our society) ignoble origins, that people who support more of it are either complicit in that or utterly ignorant of it.

It's hard to divorce gun violence from race, just as it's hard to divorce poverty, drug use, prostitution, and high school dropout rates from race - not because being black makes you more likely to be violent or lazy, but because in this country large populations of the poor are likely to be urban and black, and poverty is a source and indicator of many social ills.

So, any gun control that attempts to target those most often affected by violent crime is going to have a racial bias right now. It's sad but true.

The only answer to that, of course, is to base gun law on what would be the safe management of gun use and ownership regardless of economic strata or municipal location. Theoretically, if it's safe for Suburban Middle Class John Doe to own a gun if he meets certain criteria, it should be safe for Urban Poor John Doe to do the same.

Ceallach 8 years, 10 months ago

I'll be gone tomorrow, so all y'all please wish ms_canada a happy birthday! Thanks.

beatrice 8 years, 10 months ago

mwoodard: "Not often do you hear of a person who is legally carrying a firearm committing violent crimes."

I really do love this type of logic, because, is it ever possible to act lawfully while committing any crime? Once someone who is legally carrying a firearm commits a crime, they are at that point no longer legally carrying the firearm.

(quoting RonB) Craigers says: "My point being is that there will be some bad seeds that get through" That is the same problem with fruitcake.

RonBurgandy 8 years, 10 months ago

OMB: Why would you want to live down the SHOEMAKER INCIDENT? It is probably the most fun a lot of people, including me, have had on these boards. It's a classic.

beatrice 8 years, 10 months ago

bob, if mw had actually written it way then I wouldn't have been able to comment, and what fun is that?

Matt Woodard 8 years, 10 months ago

Sorry if I was not clear on that bea. I would not contend that it never happens. And it would be silly to believe that it is possible to act lawfully while committing a crime. I think there are a lot of people out there who would be responsible enough to carry. And, as human nature would have it, others who would not. This is why I am torn on the subject. However, until we are not allowed the right to bear arms (however one may interpret that), people will continue to pursue such a law. The states that -- Missouri and Oklahoma being on that list is not surprising-- do allow it have apparently not seen an increase in violence. (but I cannot verify that) BTW, I do not and have never owned a gun

Does that really mean that it works? No. Yes, people kill people with guns (and lots of other things)... guns don't work without someone pulling the trigger. But the availability of the guns certainly does not help if someone wishes to use one in a crime. Imagine L.A., N.Y.C., or Detroit (where there are large populations of low income families) as testing grounds for such a law.

Guns are just the latest handheld weapon to defend/kill another being with. Someday we'll manufacture something "better". If it were possible to get rid of guns altogether that would be a great solution...that will never happen. But if someone has it in their heart to commit a crime with a weapon (rock, sharp stick, knife, etc) nothing will keep that from happening. It is a sad truth.

Here is a can of worms I can open before returning to work... Maybe in the near future, we won't have to worry about anyone but Law Enforcement and Military carrying weapons. The path the Gov't and Legislatures are heading down with the Patriot Act and others like it will eventually lead to our right to even own a gun, among other things, being taken away under the disguise of Homeland/National Security and anti-Terrorism. That will take care of gun crimes all together. Right? Big brother will protect you, don't worry.

All in good fun, sorry it's long winded, please don't take me anymore serious than I take myself. Have a great day.

beatrice 8 years, 10 months ago

Remember: Guns don't kill people -- bullets do!

mw -- don't worry about being taken too seriously. I think most of us have fun around here, and I particularly enjoy a little word play from time to time. If you do get too serious, trust me, everyone will let you know. peace, bea

Sigmund 8 years, 10 months ago

TOB asked ... When (not if) Kansas ok's this, will cities able to trump state law and ban concealed weapons?

My understanding is Cities and Municipalities cannot take away priviliges and rights granted by the State (nor grant rights and priviliges prohibited by the State). This is the general rule. To the extent that the State has not acted in a particular area, the Cities may act.

sunflower_sue 8 years, 10 months ago

Cea, you did an exceptionally_marvelous job of describing our esteemed_master craftsman. effort_much appreciated.

sunflower_sue 8 years, 10 months ago

boomer, I'm glad to hear that your kidney stone (or whatever) will pass. That should be a relief for you. ;O)

Fangorn 8 years, 10 months ago

Tomorrow is ms_canada's birthday. Be sure to send some warm well wishes her way. She could use it. (Their high tomorrow will just about match tonight's low here.)


As for the question....well, duh! Since when did civil rights become optional? I've never understood what part of "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" was so hard to grasp.

All the available evidence says that Mickey Cesar is wrong. Somehow I doubt it would matter to him.

As for Sandra Benedict...I think there are too many talking ignoramuses on the street already. We need to do something about the free speech that's already out there.


Rats! I hate leaving a "hit-and-run" post. I'd much rather participate in an actual discussion, but I've had so little time lately. I was just gonna pop in to let everyone know about ms_canada's birthday. But noooo, the LJW just had to have a topic I couldn't resist.

Bea, Bobs, Ceallach, BunE, Sun_Sue (Sun Tsu?), I've missed you guys. Sorry I haven't posted much lately, although some of you probably don't mind that! ;) Once my new job settles down a bit, I hope to rejoin the community.

bearded_gnome 8 years, 10 months ago

FANG: yes we have missed you...come back soon.

bearded_gnome 8 years, 10 months ago

LILCHICK: your husband to be is a very lucky man. and if he don't treat you real good, let me know and I'll pursuade him... enjoyed all your posts and you're a fine babe...keep rockin'

bearded_gnome 8 years, 10 months ago

okay here's what I know RE this debate. I favor this and note that the bill passed one house of the kansas legislature today, overwhelmingly, Roger Pine voted for it and liberal Marcey Francisco voted against it.

in states with Conceal and carry, crime has actually gone down...book by John Lott "more guns, less crime" presents this revolutionary info and more.

statistical handicap: lots of crime stats, state and local on commission of crimes with guns. no stats on prevention of crime, saving of lives, with use of a gun.
remember a case a few years ago in wichita, a teen girl witnessed an adult male family member choking her mother or grandmother. she used a gun, shot him and saved the woman's life. that would never be tallied in official stats.

now, my choice of gun: Doc Holaday [sp?} of the OK corale incident, carrying under his right arm a "swinger. dangling from a hook over his shoulder, a double barrelled sawed off shotgun, with the barrels cut extremely short. kinda makes aiming pretty easy, eh? he stopped some baddies with that one.

bearded_gnome 8 years, 10 months ago

okay, one more item.
in a few years, there will be "smart gun technology," for those who say they are afraid that an attacker would take their gun and use it against them.
guns will soon be programable so only one person can fire them. so, thug takes your gun, thug has paperweight.

Applied_Logic 8 years, 10 months ago

BunE: "Also, some of you sound like you actually want to shoot someone. Are you stupid, amoral or just mean?"

Just mean! Seriously, one would have to be a Saint to drive 23rd or Iowa regularly and NOT want to shoot someone!

Linda Endicott 8 years, 10 months ago

I assume this "smart gun technology" will involve some sort of computer chip...

I don't blame the police for preferring to keep their old guns...we all know how computers can malfunction at any time for no readily apparent reason...imagine a police officer having to chase down a criminal, only to be told by his gun, "access denied...unauthorized user"...

rayikeo 8 years, 10 months ago

What this Law is really for, "Self Defense", not helping out the Police when a roberry takes place. 99.9 percent of the times a permit holder would draw his gun is when he is needing to defend himself. This usually happens when no one else is present and is a matter of life or severe body injury. Stray bullets are not a problem as nobody is present except the aggressor and the victim.

With border states already having this law in place, people from KC. MO. are comming to Kansas to commit thier crimes because they feel safer knowing we are now defenseless. Making the playing fields even is what this is all about.

bearded_gnome 8 years, 10 months ago

yeah, I said smart gun tech was coming soon. yes, not here yet, that's what that means.

seems to use chips, but seems more reliable than windows...I hope!
more guns=less crime.

bearded_gnome 8 years, 10 months ago

anybody able to communicate here the rationale which law enforcement agencies are saying to support exempting themselves from bweing required to use smart gun tech?
just curious.

bearded_gnome 8 years, 10 months ago

wanted to note here, recent story on foxnews that there's a huge increase in gun purchases, and first-time gun ownership in and around New Orleans! seems people want them for personal protection.

LILCHICK is needed down there for her training skills I think.

John lott: more guns, less crIme.

bearded_gnome 8 years, 10 months ago

hey, Billy, that mamary gland could hurt somebody!

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