Very sweet post, MD. I hope we give you some sort of comic relief here. But always feel free to email me if you just need a "shoulder." I have no experience with your situation, but I am a good listener.

Good job with the apology, Jayhawk.

Sue, most people who are diagnosed and told they have a terminal illness aren't in the stages yet where they can't function on their own. Many a person who was active and thought everything was okay was told they had a terminal illness.

That is the time to plan, before they get to the point they can't do it themselves.

But some, as Multi said, are in that condition because of sudden accidents, and they have no choice in the matter.

To sue and all the other out there..

I rememeber when my precious son could say a whole sentence, rarely still can.

I remember when he could sit in a wheel chair. I remember when he still had body fat, and contact with most surfaces didn't cause sores, one from a "super new excellent hospital bed at CMH made to prevent bedsores, that caused at sore on his tailbone, now opened to two, (his first OPEN bedsore in his ilfe) that requires anitbiotics, now possibly an IV line for anitbiotics, he's now in hospices care at home, 35 hours of nursing care on top of the hospice nurse, etc, etc...and what left is more than I can keep up with...

I remember when he smiled and played and lived life. I remember when he didn't require painkillers, and valium, etc, etc, etc.When the word was...the main thing is keep him comfortable. Catheters, suctioning, I've manually had to remove his stool for years. He's been fed through a tube in his stomach for many years...and like yesterday, for some reason, if was just bothering the hell out of him, bloating his stomach,,,repeatedly, agony.

Tell he he's enjoying that.

He enjoyed us working on the lift track today. He enjoyed other things. But his pain is so immense.

And to beat that, a week ago, someone close, very elderly fell, EXTREME bleeding on the brain, broken neck, back, both palliative and neuro teams saying there's no recovery...and yet a couple of older religious, not medically up to dated family/religious people uncertain about doctors saying she needs to be off life support (also her own wishes!!!!!!) by Thursday.Good Lord, she needed to be let go DAYS ago. That's what she wanted!

People aren't educated about medicine. It's REALLY very simple. When the time comes, the doctors will teach you about it. There are Delicate, Kind, and ways to prevent any sufferring.....for instance..pmeumonia is one of natures kindest ways of taking people....and medicine can help that.....when you get into that situation..you WILL learn...so shut you're trap until you get there and learn the facts!

Signed..living it every day, through too many people!!!

I remember the days my brother could run and play. I remember when he could walk with braces on his legs. I remember when he could walk with crutches. I remember when he was able to get around by crawling. I remember when he could scoot around on his rump. I remember when he could get himself back up if he fell over. I remember when he could sit in a wheelchair without being strapped in. I remember when he was social and outgoing. I remember when he could hear well. I remember when he could talk well. His mind still works just fine. Non-ending decline with a normal life expectancy. If this life has taught me anything, it is that there truly are things worse than death.

I could not make the decision for someone, but I would respect the decision if they made it. (As truly heartbroken as I would be...but then again, I already am.)

Badger, I understand where you're coming from.

In a word:

Yes.

The way for terminally ill patients to do this is to obtain prescriptioins of certain pain medications over a period of time and rathole them until needed for the ultimate purpose.

In order for this plan to work, the terminally ill patient must make the decision to check out before becoming so debilitated as to require assistance from another person.

The patient then purchases a bottle of fine wine, puts on a favourite move or music, has a glass of wine, takes a few pills, has a glass of wine, takes a few pills...............

It is an imperative that no one else be present or at least don't leave evidence of the presence of others as those persons could be chraged with assisting suicide which prosecutors looking for votes take very seriously.

It is my belief that Terry Schivo was murdered.

Thanks.

Marion.

Posted by aquakej (anonymous) on August 16, 2006 at 4:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It's really sad how this country would rather see someone starve to death than die quickly and painlessly with drugs. I agree Mrs. Schiavo wasn't worth keeping alive, but letting her starve to death??? Can anyone think of a more inhumane way to die? How messed up is that!

I can't believe you actually said Mrs. Schiavo wasn't worth keeping alive!! That is truly frightening!! You knew Mrs. Schiavo, did you? Knew her well enough to conclude that she wasn't worth keeping alive? That's the kind of decisions that make me afraid of legalizing assisted suicides.

"It's funny how most of the people who adamantly oppose assisted suicide have never been caregivers or remarkably close to the terminally ill, and most people who have been caregivers or close to the terminally ill favor the right of assisted suicide."

It's funny how people just glibly write these kinds of statements that are only conjecture, at best.

Or do you have some serious research to back up that idea?

If not, I would think that a lot of dedicated caregivers would be insulted by the notion.

MWIV -

Pain can be controlled, to a point.

But there is a point many terminally ill patients reach, where the intensity of the pain and their resistance to the drug requires that to overcome their pain, they'll have to have an amount of morphine over the legal limit of what can safely be administered to a human, and so they live in agony. Taking enough medication to stop the pain might kill them, so instead we choose to let them suffer, because somehow it's more 'right' that way.

I have mentioned elsewhere that I'm losing a family member to Muscular Dystrophy. Every year, she's a little weaker and a little less in control of her body, but her mind is still razor-sharp. She's maintained a good attitude so far, but I know and her husband knows that someday there will be a day when she's confined to a bed in terrible pain, imprisoned by her own body and completely unable to control any of her movements. All indicators are that her mind will still be razor-sharp and she'll be fully aware of it all, even though she'll have a hard time communicating it. She will also be physically unable to take her own life. She has said that assisted suicide would be a mercy at that point.

Perhaps the intense pain, hopelessness, and paralysis are simply some people's crosses to bear, and if they were good enough people they could face that suffering without faltering. But I can't fault someone who says, "I can't do this," and asks someone else to get them a drug, hold a syringe, or administer an injection they're not strong enough to do themselves.

I do agree with Blair Smith on one thing. It shouldn't happen. We shouldn't have terminally ill people in physical and emotional agony, facing hell on earth and wishing they could die. But we do.

It's funny how most of the people who adamantly oppose assisted suicide have never been caregivers or remarkably close to the terminally ill, and most people who have been caregivers or close to the terminally ill favor the right of assisted suicide.

Among those with direct experience, the people I see who aren't advocates tend to fall in line with ms_c's "I think it's morally wrong, but I'm not sure I want to make that choice for others." There are a few out there who have faced a loved one's hell and come out still adamantly opposed to assisted suicide, but not many at all.

The reason such an issue has not come up until fairly recently in human events is that the people that assisted suicide would affect would have all died long ago if we were 100 years earlier.

It now almost amounts to torture. To keep somebody in pain and misery as long as they possibly can, and to do everything they possibly can to prevent the sweet embrace of death...

I also did not read into ms_canada's post any hint of telling someone "how it should be".

I see someone wrestling with feelings vs. belief structure, law vs. humanity.

I see a well thought-out though brief personal interpretation of the issues, and a non-jugmental questioning of how SHE would handle the issue.

Not "how all of you" should handle it.

I didn't think Ms_C was saying that it shouldn't be allowed. I believe she said she believes it was wrong, but she did add some arguments to that.

I don't think she was "getting off" with it.

MS Canada why should you have dominion over another person's body, what they do to it and what they put into it? I would like you to drink 12 glasses of water each day, because it is good for you. Do I have any right to demand that of you? Give me a break. Society is running rampant with busybodies. Ms Canada you would be calling the police so quickly if someone "violated" your privacy by peering through your window or having a camera installed in a public restroom? Why? It is wrong to violate an individual's sovereignty even if you think it is "for their own good."

If I don't want to live anymore, where do you get off telling me that I must go on?

"The family might be informed of the decision, if the patient wishes it, but the family would have no part in carrying out the patient's wishes. It would be a physician."

From what I saw of Oregon's law, the physician is required to be involved only up until he prescribes the drugs. The patient is free to carry out his own wishes at home alone.

Such suicides do not always occur easily and painlessly.

crazyks,

Many life insurance policies are written with viatical settlement clauses, riders, or attachments. A person can then get the proceeds of life insurance policies that are paid by the insurer to policy holders before they die in the case of terminal illnesses.

Ever notice how alot of youngerish adults are quickly cremated after they die?

A friendly physician could sign the death certificate.

One would "naturally" perish from the ingestion of the proper poison. Correct?

"I know this because she moaned and groaned in pain the entire time"

Perhaps this will be of some comfort - you'll see this very response in many people with certain anesthetics. Recall helping someone home after extensive oral surgery and you'd have thought they were being tortured from the wailing that started as they woke up. When asked if they were in any pain, 'No', and right back to the noisy antics.

Teapot, in assisted suicide, the family would not be involved, just the patient and the doctor. The family might be informed of the decision, if the patient wishes it, but the family would have no part in carrying out the patient's wishes. It would be a physician.

As for the coma...my mother had cancer, and was in a coma for part of her last days. Never assume that just because a person is comatose that they can't still feel pain. My mother did. I know this because she moaned and groaned in pain the entire time, even though she wasn't aware of anything around her. It was a terrible, terrible thing to go through, for both her and her family. I wouldn't wish it on anybody.

There was absolutely no hope of any kind of treatment prolonging her life. So when her heart beat the last beat, we let her go. She had no living will, but we could see no point at all in them rescusitating her, just so she could live for a few more days in pain.

I read about a man in Oregon who went through the whole process for assisted suicide, and had everything ready. He decided not to do it after all, and died naturally.

Or as naturally as they will let you nowadays, being hooked up to tubes and hoses.

This would only be for people who are truly terminally ill, in great pain, and there is absolutely no hope. They are going to die anyway, and soon. Why shouldn't we be supportive if they want to die more peacefully?

My main question, though is about insurance companies. Most life insurance policies say that they won't pay if the person committed suicide. Does this include assisted suicide, where it can be proven that the person was terminally ill and was going to die anyway?

WOW!! I think I'm in love!!!

I was going to say, not just no but H3LL NO, considering how often doctors mis-diagnose problems and mis-prescribe medications, and the fact that half of them finished in the bottom half of their class --- but now I'm just going to say --- I agree with RI --- except maybe the election part and uh.. the justice part and uh.. oh yeah, the old growth part and uh.. no, guess that's about it.

Ok, This Kafkaish metamorphosis has got to stop!!!

Since I had decided to start posting on this OTS board, I have consistently been sliding to the left.

so give me a Che t-shirt, some hemp shorts, Birkenstocks, coat me in patchouli, I'll go over to commie_sunflower_sue's for breakfast granola, hug a dead elm tree, and listen to some emo punk, or better yet, I'll ride my bike to the Wakarusa festival, start calling peace officers "pigs, chain my self to a recruiting office door....

WAIT.....
Too far from my roots. Need to go full circle......

.................................................................if .........................................................I .................................................go..........stayed

.......................................far.....................................have .......................enough.....................................................should

...................to...................................................................................I ..........the..................................................................................................where left,...........................................................................................................................right

..........then...................................................................................................the ............................eventually....................................................on

....................................................I...........................be ...................................................................will

I AM THE PATER FAMILIAS!!!!!!!!!!!

(or should I be announcing - I AM SPARTICUS!?)

Back to my roots, back to the way things need to be...

No assisted suicide No abortions No big government No civil unions No democracy No estate taxes No fair elections No flag burning No estate taxes No justice No Kyoto treaty No new taxes No old growth forests No public schools No single payer No stem cell research No tax and spend No gun control

There I feel much better now....

Maybe....

Additionally, my uncle did commit suicide a little over a year ago. He was suffering from an extremely painful liver disease (I think it was cirrhosis). He went out to the backyard, sat under a tree there and put a bullet into his own brain.

My father was very sad, this being his baby brother but understood that my Uncle was in a lot of pain and no longer wished to carrry on to the point of being completely dependent on others for his daily care.

My father also supports his brother's decision and has made it a very big point to let my brother and me know there is no way in hell he will go into a nursing home if he is unable to care for himself. I am not sure what he will do if he gets to that stage but I will be behind his decision all the way.

Posted by sunflower_sue (anonymous) on August 16, 2006 at 9:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Several people I know have "committed suicide." They simply stopped eating. They knew they were dying (as I believe most people in their position do) and they made a choice. It wasn't as fast as they would have wanted. I think that help should be out there if they choose another option to "pull their own plug." Watching someone die slowly is horrible. As someone stated earlier, our society kills all the time. Why such a fuss over something that would actually be considered humane? Could I actually do it? Dunno. Guess I'll "jump off that bridge" if I ever get there.

My grandmother is currently doing this. She is 87 & in poor health and simply is tired of living in pain and being dependent on everybody for everything.

Posted by sd123

Bring on some great music and gather my friends and family around for one heck of a send off! We all gotta go eventually, so we may as well go happy!

A little reminiscent of Soilent Green perhaps?

Having a mother that passed away from ovarian cancer in november of last year I would say I wouldnt want drugs to help along with the dying process. Heres my reasoning, even though the person is (atleast my mom) similar to an infant and is practically comatose and not responsive to anything I wouldnt want to help in their death. I and my family would tell her to let go and that there was no need to hang on anymore and doing that was one of the hardest things ive ever done. And as much as I wanted to give her something to help her along I couldnt ever actually do it even though you want them to pass. 2 years ago I would have said absolutely but after seeing that I couldnt bring myself to do it.

Regards

TOB: Sarge - I bet there is a process that has to be followed. I don't think you can show up in your docs office and ask for the drugs to kill yourself. A doctor, psych, social work... etc... it's got to be an in depth process.

In Oregon, based on what I've been able to read, it does not seem to be as stringent as you might think. It does require a doctor, but if the doctor doesn't send the patient for a psych evaluation, then it won't happen. I guess some patients have doctor-shopped to find a willing doctor when their doctor did not see them as a good candidate for assisted suicide.

Also, notification of families is actually required only after death.

People can write out a living will that clearly defines their final wishes in the event they become terminally ill/mentally incompetent to make sound decisions. IE: withhold food, withhold water, withhold medication, withhold medical treatment, DNR, etceteras...

As for my personal choice, I'm with merrill on this one. Bring on some great music and gather my friends and family around for one heck of a send off! We all gotta go eventually, so we may as well go happy!

"sgtwolverine (anonymous) on August 16, 2006 at 7:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm a little bit perplexed at the necessity of assisted suicide when unassisted suicide is quite available."

A MOST useful and interesting question - it seems that a lot of people didn't look too deeply into it.

The nomenclature is deceptive, as so many controversial issues are, by calling it "assisted suicide" and not "legalized killing". The law is intended to remove the penalty of causing the death of another person from some designated 'care-giver'/health professional. As you note, people have managed the suicide part of it quite easily in the past.

When the issue is framed more accurately ("legalized killing") then the discussion can become a little more honest and a lot more interesting.

Strange how things become circular...

Ten years ago yesterday my brother ended his life by his own hand in a place far away. Not for illness or loss of mobility but for what he thought was a loss of honor. Whether understandable or not, it was his choice. I have accepted it and moved on.

Receiving the news was horrible. I would not wish such sudden shock and pain on any living person.

In the case of those living in insufferable pain and those helplessly suffering with them, an earlier, less violent end to the inevitable may be welcomed. But let it be their choice.

Sgt,

I would not say "that hybrids may have been partly developed by assisted suicide advocates"

Au contraire. I would say that Brownback is a hybrid advocate. (hybrids do not idle).

You know Sam's line... A "green" car is indeed next to Godliness, Idling cars are the devil's tools.

Sgt, I have known more than one individual that has consulted their families on going against "prolonging suffering" and opted to go home to die "in their own beds." They knew death would come quicker this way, albiet more painfully, because they didn't want their families to suffer longer as well. Unfortunately, I have known too many that have died from cancer. They all discussed their wishes with family members. Some got what they wanted, some did not. It is hard sometimes for family to "let go."

I knew a grand old lady a few years ago that wanted nothing more than to get out of the hospital so that she could go home and die. She was tagged DNR but gave power of attorney to a son. Sadly, she was in the hosp. for a month and a half and eventually died there. It was NOT how she wanted to spend her final days. Really sad.

Well, Terry Schiavo was a vegetable (an autopsy proved that)........and there are a whoooole lot more people like that in this world right now.

And do you have any idea how much money that's costing the rest of us?

Dr. Jonas Kevorkian,

Are you saying it smokes alot, but doesn't burn a large amount of fuel while idling?

Are you also renting garage space?

Sarge - I bet there is a process that has to be followed. I don't think you can show up in your docs office and ask for the drugs to kill yourself. A doctor, psych, social work... etc... it's got to be an in depth process.

As far as it being legal... I think there would be not as much, I don't know... shame, embarressment, perception of weakness.... if the person considering suicide had a doctor's note. It's almost like a 2nd opinion in knowing what one is doing is right and ok and understood by others.

Oh, and knowing it will be done correctly.

R_I, an excellent point. Would you say, then, that hybrids may have been partly developed by assisted suicide advocates?

Seriously, though, thanks for the answers, jonas and swb. I guess something that still doesn't really work in my mind is the idea that assisted suicides are really that much better for the family, or that they're necessarily more thought out or that people will consult their families on it.

"It blew its head-gasket a while back, so it's largely useless to me now. " Jonas

Are you speaking of Marion? This is kind of a downer subject today. Important, but too few laughs. For Pure Comedy check out Marion and Friends and some pretty straightfoward hateful racism.

There have always been people, Sgt, an will always be people, who will try to hasten along someone's death if they perceive some advantage for themselves in it (usually monetary). This doesn't mean there shouldn't be some legal means for people who are suffering terrible pain, and are going to die anyway, to end that suffering.

There is always someone, somewhere, who will abuse a law, regardless of what it is. It doesn't mean we shouldn't have the law.

I suspect there are many doctors who perform assisted suicide already. They are just not doing it openly, and are good at covering it up.

By the way, if anyone knows a small company or hobby car mechanic, I'm trying to find a way of offload a Mazda MX6. It blew its head-gasket a while back, so it's largely useless to me now. I'm going to list it in the paper at 450 obo, and it would sell for close to 1800 fixed up, according to Kelly Blue-Book. If any of you know anyone who would be interested, feel free to contact me through my profile with contact information.

Thanks,

Nairb Rollem.

Sgt,

I think I may have some insight to your question "Why is assisted suicide important? I genuinely do not understand it"

Many people do not have cars, and even less have garages.

With gasoline hovering around 3.00/gal who wants to leave their car idling?

sgtwolverine,

Assisted suicide can be done with the least amount of pain to the person who has chosen that way to end it.

Using a gun may not end your life and on top of having a terminal illness, now you may have other issues associated with a gunshot injury.

Swallowing pills may be taken as a medication error and you could end up being rushed to the hospital and have your stomach pumped.

Someone who is terminally ill also may not have the physical strength to carry their intentions out. They may have family members who are opposed to their ending of their life for whatever reasons.

I don't know much about European cases except that I believe it happened in the Netherlands. However, I'm sure there are ways to put safeguards into the law to prevent such abuse.

Sgt: It's pretty simple. Assisted suicide is clean and largely painless. At least if it's done right. Self-inflicted suicide is chancy at best to work at all in many of its forms, can be quite painful in most of its forms, if even for a few minutes or even seconds, and generally leaves a large mess for someone to have to clean up, not to mention scar the emotions of their families. One would hope that the decision to terminate one's life would be made with interaction and discussion with close family members, and I can't imagine familys reacting well to standard forms of suicide.

"This doctor will put me to sleep and end my life with a chemical injection while I sleep. Here's my will. Please help execute the final arrangements."

"I'm going to put a shotgun in my mouth and blow my head off. Here's my will. Please help execute the final arrangements. Oh, and clean me off the walls when you're done, would you?"

Haven't they had issues in Europe with assisted suicides being carried out without the consent of the person whose death is being arranged?

In any case: "The issue here is that people want control of the way they die." This is what I do not understand: suicide has always been available in a wide variety of forms. Why is assisted suicide important? I genuinely do not understand it.

Thus far I have no idea how traumatic the pain involved with cancer must be. If it were me I'd be saying let's get it over with so everyone else can get on with their lives. I have been loved and know those who love me are enduring a tremendous amount of pain waiting for the end. I say bring it to a peaceful end then bring on Eric Clapton,Kelly Hunt, EmmyLou Harris with Mark Knopfler to celebrate.

Would anyone honestly believe I would want to spend who knows how long in unbearable pain and at times be incoherent due to the drugs? By that time the isurance companies are refusing to pay and the hospital or medical care bill looks the national debt....what's the point. At some point it is time to move on.

What a stupid question! There is no doctor that is going

to prescribe medicine to somone who might use it to

commit suicide! There is simply too much liability and

this is something that even the most incompetent

doctors understand!

DHD

Hey in traditional Inuit society, people used to walk off into the tundra alone, for as not to "burden" the family.

So someone mistakes "30 capsules at one time" for "one capsule 3 times a day". Is it the doctors fault?

I say if you want to block assisted suicide, ban yogurt!

We euthanize animals. We prescribe the morning after pill to prevent pregnancies. Abortion up to a certain point is legal. All decisions made by supposedly competent people. Therefore, why can't we euthanize ourselves if deemed competent enough to make that decision?

If in the natural course of things, a person would die without the efforts of medicine, why should said person be made to suffer in pain?

Let them "walk with the bears."

Yes they should. Sorry Frederick, but there is NOT always a possibility of recovery. And Megan, it's morally correct to force someone to end their days in pain and misery?

This is something that only affects the terminally ill person. It's nobody else's business.