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Should the city help downtown building owners pay for sprinkler systems?

Asked at Massachusetts Street on April 7, 2006

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Photo of Avery Richards-Pearson

“I think it would be in the city’s best interest, considering that downtown is kind of the jewel of Lawrence. But the business owners should also have a hand in paying for it.”

Photo of Adrienne Birt

“The city should help as much as they can, but in the end it should be the owners’ responsibility.”

Photo of Chuck Hunter

“No. It should be on the building owners. They need to spend the extra money to get the sprinklers.”

Photo of Jo Anne Abbate

“I would say yes, they should help. This is a very special place - a very unique place. It draws a lot of people to the city, and they should work together to keep it that way.”

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Comments

enochville 9 years, 2 months ago

No. The building owners should pay for it. If you want real estate on Lawrence's "Plaza," you need to keep your property looking good. It should be worth the sacrifice to the businesses and building owners to be on Mass. They make more money by being downtown compared to any other place in town.

enochville 9 years, 2 months ago

Oops, I should have said, keep your property looking good and being safe" (since we are talking about fire sprinklers).

Linda Aikins 9 years, 2 months ago

I think Doug could handle paying for his own, but I have to think there are lots of Lawrence Plaza (love it E) business owners who can't afford it and it would put them out of business. That would be sad.

Geez, everything needs money thrown to it these days.

bankboy119 9 years, 2 months ago

Agreed ljreader. It is not the business that is there, it is the building owner's responsibility.

Richard Heckler 9 years, 2 months ago

Not no but hell no!

Property owners should install sprinklers systems in their private investments not me or my tax paying friends. Fix the 2nd street bump instead and clean up or repair sidewalks first thank you.

Doug Compton and Larry Brown can afford sprinklers. From this day forward any time a building changes ownership create an ordinance that new sprinklers are part of the deal. Anyone that owns or is buying downtown Lawrence real estate can afford sprinklers. Poor people are not investing in downtown Lawrence.

Richard Heckler 9 years, 2 months ago

Isn't this idea a bit like corporate welfare?

craigers 9 years, 2 months ago

No. They are businesses and should be handled as such. All businesses have to spend money to protect their investment. Is it not enough that money is spent down there shopping to help their bottom line, but now they want our tax money too to help with the maintenance? I don't think so. If you do business in an old building, these are some of things you should have to pay for.

Richard Heckler 9 years, 2 months ago

No doubt the downtown barber who owns downtown property thinks this is a great idea. He must abstain from voting due to conflicts of interest.

Nikki May 9 years, 2 months ago

I wonder how much assistant cheese buyers make.

RonBurgandy 9 years, 2 months ago

Is it just me or does Chuck Hunter look a little older than a ninth grader?

No, the building owners should pay for it.

Ceallach 9 years, 2 months ago

No. The property owners should pay and consider it an upgrade on their investment.

sunflower_sue 9 years, 2 months ago

That was a good one, Hannibal.

My answer: Hell no!!!

sgtwolverine 9 years, 2 months ago

If the city wants to start assisting with the cost of nonrequired building upgrades, then what's next -- paying for required code compliance?

Linda Aikins 9 years, 2 months ago

I guess what I meant was that the business owners would pay for it in the long run, don't you think? Whether or not they own the building.

Wouldn't there be a significant insurance savings if these had sprinklers?

Aren't a lot of the buildings grandfathered in insofar as a requirement for sprinklers?

Yep Doug and Larry could afford it, I'm sure.

staff04 9 years, 2 months ago

To all who say the building owners should pay:

I don't disagree, but aren't you the same ones who would scream "unfunded mandate" if it affected you?

Given the potential for not only economic disaster, but historical tragedy as well if a large fire broke out, I would think that you might be a little more interested in helping the building owners accomplish something like this.

sgtwolverine 9 years, 2 months ago

Couldn't they help them pay, but then have the businesses/building owners pay them back over time under favorable terms? That might help the owners with the strain of installing sprinklers, while the city wouldn't be spending all that money for work on privately-owned buildings.

neopolss 9 years, 2 months ago

I wouldn't mind them paying for it, unless by law they were suddenly required to have them. That's a bit of BS to me. As home owners, how upset would we be if the city passed an ordinance requiring everyone to have solar panels, and then expected you to pay for it? I'd be packing up.

optimist 9 years, 2 months ago

Property owners should pay for it. It's as simple as that.

However; installing fire suppression systems will, 1) promote the general safety of Lawrence citizens and emergency workers, 2) minimize the impact on city resources of a large scale fire to the downtown. As a result I would suggest incentives be provided to property owners. A property tax break to business owners who voluntarily install sprinklers should be considered. The break could be divided up over several years so as to minimize immediate financial impact to the city. The tax break coupled with the likely insurance savings would defray the costs of installing the sprinklers in just a few years and the savings on property insurance would continue for the property owner for many years thereafter.

I would further suggest an added (fire/emergency) fee to businesses who fail to have the sprinklers installed by a set date; say three years from passage of the ordinance.

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 9 years, 2 months ago

Gary Strong of Strong's Antiques and Amee's Coffeehouse owns his building. I think it would be a burden for him, but I would be willing to give to a fundraiser to help him put them in. Amee's has the best coffee in town.
As for Compton, he has enough money to do it himself. He would love it if some of the smaller property owners had to give up their buildings; he could buy them out and own more of downtown. It's funny that a lot of posters here are usually so pro-develper, but they hate one of the biggest developers in town. I figured this forum would be all for helping out those poor oppressed developers. As for those who don't like downtown Lawrence, please do us all a favor and move to Olathe, Overland Park or Shawnee; you're mall envy will never be fulfilled here. God forbid you have to go outside to do your shopping.

enochville 9 years, 2 months ago

dorothy: who said they don't like downtown?

sgtwolverine 9 years, 2 months ago

Well, you know, Ubermime, it often takes a serious accident to spur on the realization that an intersection or stretch of road is a problem...

Of course, those problems are usually harder to fix. In January I totaled my car on a very bad stretch of highway (I was part of a 13-car pileup that included a fatality), but it's highway running through Ann Arbor, and there's no room for a much-needed complete redesign.

Linda Aikins 9 years, 2 months ago

Yep MD, I plan to have a wonderful weekend!

400 rocks.

kansas_prairieland 9 years, 2 months ago

Okay, now is it me, or has it occurred to anyone else here that the city of Lawrence has a track record of not responding to dangerous/deadly issues until it's too late!!

I mean, isn't that how things usually work in this town?

Really high bushes and dips in roads go ignored....FOR YEARS AND YEARS..........until one day a child gets killed or is injured rather severely.....and then everyone and their uncle finally decides that something must be done about "high, thick bushes by intersections" and "dangerous dips in roads" that cause trailers to go flying through the air!

And last fall a terrible fire kills several people in a building that had with no sprinklers!

It's obvious that the city of Lawrence is a city that is "reactive"...........and definitely not "proactive"!!

sunflower_sue 9 years, 2 months ago

Staff 04, along the lines of screaming "unfunded mandate", property owners already have to pay for their sidewalks that the city installed and lets the general public use. The property owner cannot charge for the use of the sidewalk. However, a business can find many ways to defer the cost of sprinklers, including depreciation on taxes. We are all subject to rules and regs that are constantly changing. I guess the point I'm attempting to make is that the individual property owner, as compared to the "business" property owner, gets no handouts so why should the other? Business owners should have to have more rules to comply with...if it is to be a place where the public is welcome.

staff04 9 years, 2 months ago

try 800tc...you can get a super good deal on them from overstock.com.

like sleeping on satin...

staff04 9 years, 2 months ago

Sue- Individual property owners get handouts every year when they file their taxes. I'm a renter. I get no handouts.

But, as I attempted to make clear, I think that the building owners should be responsible for the cost, but it may not be reasonable to expect them to pay for all of it up front.

Optimist pretty much says what I am thinking in his/her post at 9:19.

staff04 9 years, 2 months ago

I own the 800 tc, and I got them from overstock. They aren't really THAT slick, but as you wash them, they get softer.

I would LOVE to have king...doesn't work so well in a 700sf apartment though...

staff04 9 years, 2 months ago

Sad thing is, in my neighborhood, 700sf is a pretty big space. I'll look into that springboard thing.

sgtwolverine 9 years, 2 months ago

In honor of the assistant cheese buyer (and the cartographer of a week or two ago), here's a question:

If you could give any occupation to the OTS questioner, what would it be?

sunflower_sue 9 years, 2 months ago

Handouts when I pay my property taxes??? roflmao!

craigers 9 years, 2 months ago

I have tomorrow's OTS question!!!!!

How are the rising gas prices effecting you? Are the rising gas prices changing your habits?

Your choice.

bankboy119 9 years, 2 months ago

lol MD I think you've been having a rough time lately from some of your posts.

As for any occupation...philosophizer.

Rationalanimal 9 years, 2 months ago

The question really should be: Do you think Mr. and Mrs Smith, Lawrence taxpayers, living on 101 Louisiana St., should be forced to pay to install Mr. Business Man's, on Mass St., sprinkling system? Last time I checked Mr. Business Man wasn't asked to pay to install Mr. and Mrs. Smith's lawn sprinkling system.

The answer is NO!

sgtwolverine 9 years, 2 months ago

Whoa. When did Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie move to 101 Louisiana St. in Lawrence?

swamp_rat 9 years, 2 months ago

bovine artificial imseminator a.k.a. cow turkey baster.

Fatty_McButterpants 9 years, 2 months ago

I think the owners of the buildings should be required to install the sprinklers. They charge an arm and a leg to rent one of those spaces so they should be able to afford it. As one person above said, "Let Doug Compton pay for his own sprinklers".

sunflower_sue 9 years, 2 months ago

Melanie, definitely flannel! I hear it turns the menfolk into drooling puppy dogs.

girly 9 years, 2 months ago

If the city can afford to help business owners pay for their sprinkler systems so they can afford to stay in business, then let the city also pay for the bars to install high power air filtration systems so people can smoke inside and the bar owners can stay in business!

bankboy119 9 years, 2 months ago

I like flannel sheets better, I think they're more comfortable...then again I don't remember ever using satin.

BunE 9 years, 2 months ago

C'mon, the United States has a long history of bailing out business and sticking the bill on the taxpayer. I say not only should we pay for the sprinklers but we should give them money to expand, open new shops around the country and world (Iraq maybe!?) and then after they have taken the money and done nothing we should just think our lucky stars that we have a "brits" or a "Buffalo Wild Wings" here. Then as the city goes deeper and deeper into debt we can cut taxes to large property owners, all the while increasing spending on a police force that attracts lower and lower quality recruits.
Then we can complain that it is all the fault of the declining morality of our city.
I have a dream...

Ceallach 9 years, 2 months ago

800 -- how delightfully decadant (using the self-indulgent definition, of course :)

staff, from what friends say, 700 sf in DC is very nearly palacial, unless you are sharing it :):)

bankboy119 9 years, 2 months ago

Actually Marion banks will not loan a $20,000 mortgage. We're happy to do $20k loans. I've got several people they could go see if they're interested in a business loan.

lunacydetector 9 years, 2 months ago

if the city uses taxpayer money to subsidize all these properties downtown, will they subsidize the owners of buildings that already have installed sprinkler systems? wouldn't that be fair, or will they only reward the cheapskates or the poor owner who has building(s) downtown that haven't installed sprinklers?

also, this is something that mr. amyx would have to abstain from voting on since his business is downtown.

lunacydetector 9 years, 2 months ago

most of the buildings downtown are owned by local yocals and have been in their families for years. they should be more than financially secure to pay for the sprinkler systems all by their lonesome, without having to stick their hand out for OUR money. my reasoning is- since these buildings have been in their families for 40-100 years, they should no longer have a mortgage to payoff.

Sharon Nottingham 9 years, 2 months ago

Hey, I own my home, can the city pay for me to have a sprinkler system? Good grief. The building owners should pay. They already get the benefit of being in a prime location for shoppers, and any upkeep is their responsibility. All other businesses that aren't located downtown pay to make their places look nice to draw in the customer. It's part of going into business. Deal with it.

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 9 years, 2 months ago

blue73harley and enochville were putting "jewel" and "Plaza" in parenthsis, so I assumed that they were being sarcastic. Sorry if I was wrong. You know what they say about assume.

KSChick1 9 years, 2 months ago

If the city wants the sprinklers, let them pay for it. Some of the downtown businesses are thriving and others are not. One or more seems to go out of business each month before a chain goes in. I have had enough of the Gap, Starbucks, Ben & Jerry's, Claire's, Old Navy, and all those other chains. They can afford the sprinkler systems. Leave the hometown businesses alone or give them a grant to get the sprinklers installed. Then maybe we will not be able to afford any more "traffic calming devices". We all know what a tragedy that would be.

KSChick1 9 years, 2 months ago

And who is that Assistant Cheese Buyer? He can't be for real.

avhjmlk 9 years, 2 months ago

Jersey knit cotton t-shirt sheets.

Now THOSE are the best.

bankboy119 9 years, 2 months ago

Marion,

We could use any of those things you listed seriously or we could do an unsecured loan (yes they do those for businesses too.) Even if they just lease the property, many of our business customers do, we can do a loan for them.

beatrice 9 years, 2 months ago

"And who is that Assistant Cheese Buyer? He can't be for real." What, you think people are born cheese buyers? It takes great training to achieve the position. They must serve an apprenticeship in which for two years you do nothing but slice and prepare cheeses. After two years of proving yourself capable of cutting the cheese comes four years at Provolone University, after which graduates hope and pray to land one of the very few assistant positions out there -- all to fulfill the dream realized by only a handful of people at any given time of being called The Cheese Buyer! It is kind of like being a Jedi warrior, but with cheese.

Oh, and if the city wants sprinklers then they must pay for them. Will businesses be asked to pay for parking meters next?

sgtwolverine 9 years, 2 months ago

beatrice, is Provolone University (PU?) in Provo, Utah?

Hey, I'd pay for parking meters if I got to empty them, too.

craigers 9 years, 2 months ago

beatrice I love it. miniture golf caddie. Do you mean the person would have to small or just lug the putter around. "Sir I would use a putter for this shot!"

sgtwolverine 9 years, 2 months ago

I'm enjoying the assumption that people who own property are rich. Some are, but others really aren't extremely wealthy.

BunE 9 years, 2 months ago

My Klondike Bars all melted yesterday...

A BunE has to work at least some of the time.

I need Sprinklers for my biz. Its HOT!

bankboy119 9 years, 2 months ago

Marion,

Right now Prime is at 7.75%. On a non-secured loan the bank will loan at Prime+4%. Yes 11.75% is high but if Prime was only 3% like it was a couple years ago the interest rate would be 7%. No matter what type of loan you do, personal or business, you will be paying a higher rate.

Take credit cards, people pay interest rates of 13% or higher so you're looking at Prime+5.25% minimum and the interest rate is floating. A credit card is a personal unsecured line of credit. So actually the business usually gets a better interest rate on an unsecured loan.

A bank is a for profit entity so we aren't going to loan below prime, most of the time. We would for an introductory rate and sometimes we run specials if we have excess cash to loan out. All banks would be out of business if made loans for 2% but then had to pay 7.75% on loans we have to take out.

MD, you can send me an email if you want with questions...I'd be glad to help out but to be honest I still get mine prepared by a professional.

sgtwolverine 9 years, 2 months ago

Only if you turn them on when the creditors walk through the door.

sgtwolverine 9 years, 2 months ago

The sprinklers, I mean. Not the creditors.

RonBurgandy 9 years, 2 months ago

More suggestions for OTS questions:

If you are old and are in a bathtub how would you know if you have been in there too long?

If there was a crumb on the table and you cut it in half, would you have two crumbs or two halves of a crumb?

Can you still say "Put it where the sun don't shine " on a nude beach?

Some of my favorites...

Ceallach 9 years, 2 months ago

sue, are farm boys easy ...... or what? :)

OTS occupation: since I often work with people who are full of it, I would say High Colonic Administrator.

Jay Bird 9 years, 2 months ago

Hell no, if you want Prime real estate on Mass, then buy your own sprinklers, if you rent, make your landlord pay for them. If you can't afford it, goodbye. And please take starbucks with you.

OldEnuf2BYurDad 9 years, 2 months ago

Sprinklers... blah, blah... sprinklers.

Whatever. I just want to know how I can get a job as an assistant cheese buyer. I'd even settle for a job as an associate lunchmeat purchaser.

This is the deal: if all the downtown shops get sprinklers, say goodbye to local ownership. The cost of owning those properties would increase, thereby increasing the cost of rent, which would create an environment where only deep-pocketed owners (corporations) would be able to afford to be downtown. We'd have a Starbucks on every block, but no more Silas & Maddie's.

I'm not saying that the city "should" pay for it, I'm just "telling you about how the hogs are going to eat your little brother" (let's see if anyone remembers that reference) if the property owners are FORCED to put out that money.

RonBurgandy 9 years, 2 months ago

Marion,

Of course banks do that, I think they state the noninterest income in all financial statements. Anybody who wants to know that can find it out. Banks are a business, they aren't just a place that you can store your money.

sunflower_sue 9 years, 2 months ago

Oh, we were talking bedsheets, were we? Definitely nothing less than 240 thread count cotton. And none of that sateen cr@p.

MD, e-mail me. I must know what your science prof told you.

Cea, aren't MOST boys easy? I'll admit there is something to those farm-boy types. I think their tractors are sexy. Speaking of which...my sis bought Brokeback Mtn so tonight I'm gonna watch me a little gay cowboy action. Ought to be fun. (I doubt the hubby will watch...he'll have to opt for Narnia in the other room with the kiddies.) I wonder if I can tell him it's a documentary on Cowboys in Alberta, Alaska???

Marion, did you call me a boy? Oh, well! I've been called worse.

beatrice 9 years, 2 months ago

Busted! I soooo didn't read the story -- I thought we were talking about sprinkler systems for sidewalk beautification/flower beds. Oops. Let the businesses or building owners pay to meet safety codes, I guess. If the city is to foot the bill, will the businesses that already have sprinklers get a kickback?

omb: that was the best inside joke I've seen around here in a long time!

staff04 9 years, 2 months ago

Sue and Melanie: And then, when April 15th rolls around, you take a big deduction from your bill to the gov't because you own a home.

I shouldn't call it a handout, you are correct. But don't say the government doesn't also reward individual property owners...

OldEnuf2BYurDad 9 years, 2 months ago

I'm always surprised at "anti-bank" attitudes. If anyone doesn't like "banks", they can try to live without one. Try living without taking on debt. Keep your money in a hole in the ground. Use a credit union.

We treat banks the way we treat cops. We sometimes act like they are in the way, but in reality, we'd be in a world of hurt without them (or, without something "like" them, like a credit union).

Me? I appreciate the bank that gave me a car loan, the bank that gave me student loans and the bank that gave me both my home loans. Should they make money on me? SURE they should! I'm risking THEIR money! I'm building equity in a home rather than saving for 20 years (while paying rent) to buy a home. That is worth paying for.

Regarding the question of increasing property values: its not so much that the property values would increase as much as it is that the insurance rates would drop. That is where the "windfall" would come from (not that those systems would pay for themselves in a reasonable amount of time). Most property damage comes from weather and fire, so dealing with "half" of the problem will save some real money. Remember what happened in Aggieville a few years back?

bankboy119 9 years, 2 months ago

Marion,

I wasn't avoiding your suggestion, I was explaining why the interest rates were so high.

Your suggestion, unfortunately, won't work with the bank that I am at now. I've seen more than one bank beat us in a bidding war to keep current customers. I doubt that they would do anything for downtown.

Also, looking from an investor's point of view, the place and the people you really want to get in good with are the ones building out west, so if the bank would do anything it would probably be out there. More people with more money.

And I'm sorry if that comment is insensitive, I didn't come from money, but that paragraph is just how it works.

staff04 9 years, 2 months ago

I was referring to the deduction you take for interest on your mortgage.

staff04 9 years, 2 months ago

And the gender of your brain is of no concern to me...

BigMitch 9 years, 2 months ago

Why not check out a local bank or credit union? Many of them are still trying to make good with Lawrence residents to beat out the competition. That should help bring down the rate a little bit.

Those financial institutions would at least consider your "plan".

Now let's wait for Marion's criticism

bankboy119 9 years, 2 months ago

Mel,

2 things.

  1. 100k home 30 years at 6% $215,949.60 total 100k home 30 years at 7% $239,644.80 total

  2. Just because you consider yourself "impoverished" does not mean you cannot get a loan. It may be smaller because you make less money but you could probably get some type of loan. Personally, if you saved and just paid cash for the home, I think you're better off. Who cares if you can get a deduction if you don't have to pay interest at all. You saved yourself some money. If it had to do with credit, there are still ways to build your credit back up.

sunflower_sue 9 years, 2 months ago

staff04, You speak like someone who knows exactly NOT what the heck they are talking about. Seriously! You make it sound as if a mortgage is interest free. On an average 30 year loan, you pay just about as much interest as you do principle. I no longer know why I'm even trying to argue this point w/ you. I defer all future arguements to bankboy.

MD, I may get the hubby to watch, but not in front of my sis and girlfriend that are going to be here tonight. It's a chicks' only night here.

Bea, how funny! When I asked the hubby the OTS ?, he thought it meant "flower watering system" too, and was outraged that the businesses should have to pay to water the city's landscaping. (I just gave him one of those pathetically goofy looks that I'm so good at.)

bankboy119 9 years, 2 months ago

Why go watch a gay shepherd movie? Yuck. I'm fortunate enough my wife doesn't want to watch it either.

sunflower_sue 9 years, 2 months ago

Reticent, too bad you have stuff to finish up tonight. I'll just invite your wife to come over, instead. I think the hubby would watch, he is the sensitive type, but he may not want to watch in a room full of women...then again??? BUT, I NEED a girls only night. Wouldn't a caring, sensitive hubby want his wife to be happy? When momma's happy...everyone's happy!

sunflower_sue 9 years, 2 months ago

Katie Horner... Favorite school subject: Drama. Well, DUH!

OldEnuf2BYurDad 9 years, 2 months ago

BB: What bank do you work for? I'm just curious.

sunflower_sue 9 years, 2 months ago

RI, My bucket'o is chillin' as we speak (type). :o) (I'll reserve the chocolate milk for the kiddies...kiddies love that chocolate milk.)

MD, biting tongue biting tongue cough, spit

bankboy119 9 years, 2 months ago

MD, if it were me you margaritas and cowboys I don't think I would have a wife lol.

Melanie, sorry I stuck with the first woman that could stand me.

Well I think it's about time to get out of here, have a good weekend everybody.

BigMitch 9 years, 2 months ago

I understand that I was just trying to give a solution to your unresolved question.

And I do work at a credit union. I wouldn't have a big say in whether or not we'd give the loan or not but I do know that the competition to get more and more visibility from prospective customers/members is huge. In Lawrence especially with so many banks and credit unions and other financial services available, the institutions are always trying to find ways to out do the other ones.

But you seem to have a good grasp on marketing and business so you know that. I'm not saying that there is a great chance for the loans but that would be the best bet for downtown.

MomMeg 9 years, 2 months ago

So Beatrice -- are you saying that to be an assisant cheese buyer one has to first become proficent at cutting the cheese?????

sunflower_sue 9 years, 2 months ago

MME, Unless you're from St. Joe...we never dated. Maybe you're confusing me with some gorgeous girl you saw once and can never quite get out of your mind???;)

trollkiller 9 years, 2 months ago

manly,

I think if you had anything women wanted you wouldn't be be begging among strangers on the Internet.

maybe you should hook up with MD. She sounds desperate for contact with anybody

sad

p.s.: did you pick your moniker after a flatuant problem?

sunflower_sue 9 years, 2 months ago

MD, sorry, Brokeback almost put me and my girlfriends to sleep. Beautiful scenery...but snore! (Except for the tent scene) Good night all!

bearded_gnome 9 years, 2 months ago

all I can say: if I'm the "assistant cheese buyer," and the senior retires, I then become: "the BIG CHEESE?"


'night...zzz

one_persons_opinion 9 years, 2 months ago

Trollkiller,

I think that the word you're looking for is "flatulent".

If you're going to make fun of people....at least learn how to spell first!

one_persons_opinion 9 years, 2 months ago

OTS,

In that April 25th post, I was specifically commenting on Fangorn critcizing other people's spelling mistakes when he happened to disagree with them...and he was trying to appear smarter than that person. He had a habit of doing that.

In this case, trollkiller's comment had the same tone to it. Trollkiller was/is trying to sound/appear superior to the person he/she was talking to.

But what's funny is that it's trollkiller who's the dumbbell!

Trollkiller appears to be in no position to be criticizing anyone! Period.

And last, although I started off that April 25th post mentioning trolls....if you read the entire post, you'll see that my post was my opinion of Fangorn's posts, in general (not just his posts vis-a-vis trolls).

Nice try, OTS (or is it "trollkiller"?)

one_persons_opinion 9 years, 2 months ago

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one_persons_opinion 9 years, 2 months ago

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kansas_prairieland 9 years, 2 months ago

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one_persons_opinion 9 years, 2 months ago

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