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Do you think animal cruelty should be a felony in Kansas?

Asked at Massachusetts Street on November 17, 2005

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Photo of Stefan Vogler

“I think it probably should be if the court can prove that they had malicious intent.”

Photo of Sasha Glanville

“Yes, undoubtedly. If the court can prove they violated animal cruelty laws, then it should be a felony.”

Photo of John Roberts

“That’s a tough question, because it’s hard to know where to draw the line. I would have to know exactly what constitutes animal cruelty to decide.”

Photo of Kim Wallace

“It depends on the extent of the brutality. If they had vicious intentions, then it should be. Otherwise it should be a misdemeanor.”

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thunderbuns 12 years, 2 months ago

nuke the unborn gay whales..........

oh wait, that may be a felony in kansas.

but go ahead and abort a human, that's okay!

5 bucks says this comment gets removed by the site staff. Whaddya think?

thunderbuns 12 years, 2 months ago

To tell you the truth I don't really think about it that much. But if you give me a couple days I'll get back to you......

Oh wait, I used that line yesterday. So........

Ummmm........only if the animal is treated cruelly during a a roundabout.....during Thanksgiving week.

Sigmund 12 years, 2 months ago

Yes it should be a felony, except of course for cats.

neopolss 12 years, 2 months ago

No to a felony, because our fine system of justice cannot distinguish between one cruelty or another. As far as prosecuters are concerned, dog on a leash = beating a dog to death. I don't want to see someone getting 7 years in the slammer because they dyed their poodle pink.

Endangered species are different. If someone were to abuse a Dalton-Gang-Flint-Hill 8-toed Sloth, I'd be very upset. They're hard to find you know.

littleme 12 years, 2 months ago

Animal cruelty is one of the first signs of something incredibly a person becoming a serial killer? you can make all the jokes you want..but barbequing a baby kitten for fun...or wiring up a dogs legs into his mouth and pouring acid on him and then tosing him in the recycling bin still serious! These animals can not fight back. Cases like these need addequate punishment..and we could stop a serial killer in the making.

b_asinbeer 12 years, 2 months ago

I think it should be a felony. Injuring, torturing, or killing helpless animals is not something that should be taken lightly by anyone (even those joking about roundabouts...again). If we take something more seriously, maybe the amount of incidents can decrease.

Have a wonderful day everyone!

beatrice 12 years, 2 months ago

Cats rule! I think anyone who is cruel to a cat should become a victim of post-birth abortion!

nut_case 12 years, 2 months ago

No, I do not think it should be a felony. I would prefer to have my tax dollars spent for something more useful than long drawn out court cases to prove an animal cruelty case.

You can make animal cruelty a big revolving door cash-cow for the government, like traffic violations. But, I believe the monetary return on felony convictions is non-existant :it costs way more to prosecute the case than the accused would return to the system

Can you imagine having to spend big $$$ on a legal defense because some nosy neighbor saw you swat the dog with a newspaper and you are now faced with a felony conviction?!? (and the state spending an equally large sum of tax dollars for the prosecution)

Levy a fine commensurate with the level of the cruelty, but save felony convictions for serious crimes that actually impact innocent people...rape, murder, assult w/ deadly weapon, etc.

bankboy119 12 years, 2 months ago

It depends where the line is drawn. If we let PETA and Lulu make the legislation we're all screwed just for owning a pet and keeping Goldie in a glass bowl.

harrierist 12 years, 2 months ago

Yes, I think for domesticated Pets... Yet if you have ever been to a beef processing plant, the cattle are marched up to a ramp and walk to the killing plateform. A plunger gun is then placed on the forehead of the cow and then the plunger extended in to the brain. Other Cows in line will begining moning and pretty soon a number of them will begin moning down the line, some will begin peeing in line.... they know they are going to die. Every species does have the intelligence it seems, to warn others of their find that danger awaites them. Cattle evidently do recognize danger when they see another killed.

feeble 12 years, 2 months ago

I would imagine the primary use for such a measure would be to get developing young sociopaths into the penal/correctional system as soon as possible. That and hand out harsher penalties for individuals who organize, promote and engage in dog fights.

badger 12 years, 2 months ago

Quick note:

Please read again, gnome. I wasn't actually stating an opinion about the morality of abortion (a point I made later). I was refuting the 'heartbeat at two weeks' assertion, which is patently false, because bad science is no good to anyone on any side of the debate.

If someone wanted to say, "The heart and brain begin developing in the second month of pregnancy, along with a rudimentary nervous system to sense and interpret stimuli," then I wouldn't call it bad science, because that's in line with observed phenomena.

Please don't put opinions and defenses into my words that aren't stated.

Staci Dark Simpson 12 years, 2 months ago

Let me ask my dog. Hold on shes tied outside right now. ......................... I think there needs to be a line drawn. Animals shouldn't be abused but I don't want to get sued because someone sees me swat my 70 lb dogs hiney because she is chewing on me while I am walking.

badger 12 years, 2 months ago

I stand firm on, "I think it depends."

True cruelty? Pouring gasoline on an animal and lighting it, beating an animal to death, things like that, yeah, there should be a class of felony that encompasses that, because dissecting a live pet without anesthetic merits more than a misdemeanor conviction, you know?

One of the standards, I imagine, will need to be that the abuse or cruelty causes serious, lasting observable physical effects like death or permanent injury. If I swat the cat for trying to eat off my plate, a veterinarian isn't going to be able to find evidence of physical injury even immediately afterward, and without that evidence, a felony case shouldn't go forward.

I also think it's essential that the person intended to harm the animal or knew it would be harmed, and that there was malicious intent involved. Locking your pet in a car or leaving it on a leash is dumb, but if 'dumb' were a felony they'd just have to wall off the whole country and incarcerate pretty much everyone over the age of, say, two.

Mental cruelty to animals, though despicable, isn't a felony-level offense in my book. Those folks should just be kicked really hard in the ribs a couple of times.

I think, though, that there needs to be a provision exempting those who choose to put sick or hurt pets down themselves instead of having the vet do it, because I know there are people out there who believe that if you make the decision to put a pet down, you should do it yourself, and they can and will do it humanely. I don't think that it should be any class of crime to kill a rabid animal. Instead, I think you ought to be given a plate of cookies and a pat on the back.

samsnewplace 12 years, 2 months ago

Anyone who has to be mean to a pet has a serious problem and yes this should be treated as a felony. The judges would have to decide what is "cruelty" and I have faith they can tell the difference between abused animals and discipline within reason.

glockenspiel 12 years, 2 months ago

I propose that privacy curtains be used when processing cattle. What other techniques can we use to stop the moaning?

badger 12 years, 2 months ago

You can gauge a cow's level of stress by the frequency and pitch of its mooing (yes, there are studies on this, and our tax dollars probably paid for them...).

So, with this knowledge in hand, researchers found that cows exhibited considerably less stress if they were gradually enclosed in a chute while moving slowly than they did if they were in an open-air line moving the same speed. There exists, based on this knowledge, a humane killing box, which is basically a slowly narrowing chute with a sloping roof, into which the cattle are driven to calm them before the kill. It is more humane, and the meat tastes better because stress and adrenaline result in bitter meat.

I don't know what the frequency of use of this mechanism is, just that it's out there.

Charla Welch 12 years, 2 months ago

Yes. Felony. Within reason, of course. I wouldn't expect someone who kicked or hit an animal that attacked them to be punished. I think it's pretty obvious when someone is being intentionally cruel to an animal. There is a difference between cruelty and stupidity.

bankboy119 12 years, 2 months ago

sam, your comment, "The judges would have to decide what is "cruelty" and I have faith they can tell the difference between abused animals and discipline within reason."

Are you serious? Have you seen some of the cases they've decided. Come on let's be sensible now.

Hey for a real riveting article check out,2933,175518,00.html

Linda Aikins 12 years, 2 months ago

ABSOLUTELY!!! And yes, I meant to yell that.

Even, yes, trap-door buffalo need to be loved.

badger 12 years, 2 months ago

I have to disagree with those who think the guidelines should be left open to judicial interpretation. I think that the criteria for felonious animal cruelty should be set out very carefully, and that input from animal rights' groups should be carefully considered but absolutely not dictate terms or conditions.

Felonies carry a lot of weight aside from incarceration. There's the loss of voting privilege, the inability to hold a lot of jobs, all sorts of restrictions placed on convicted felons. As much as I think people who beat or abuse animals are despicable and should be punished, I don't know that someone who hits his dog, even repeatedly, is a felony-class criminal. I'd rather see them reserve felony animal cruelty for the really severe cases, where people are running pit bull fighting dens or keeping fifty malnourished horses in a filthy barn 24 hours a day while their hooves rot out from under them, or wrapping puppies in wire and burning them with chemicals, and I think the line between felony and misdemeanor cruelty needs to be laid out in crystal clear technicolor.

avhjmlk 12 years, 2 months ago

badger, you hit it right on the money.

alphavegan 12 years, 2 months ago

Of course it should be! Whoever said that animal cruelty/abuse is the first sign of a killer is correct! If you research convicted killers, rapists, terrorists, etc you will find a history of animal abuse. If we can nab them there before they move on to bigger and worse things, all the better!

Animals are living, feeling, emotional creatures that do not EVER deserve to be the brunt of human abuse and cruelty. It takes a very weak, insecure person to take out their anger on an animal. Abusing something that cannot fight back is the biggest sign of weakness. It doesn't take any genius whatsoever to hurt something without defenses.

I do not believe in hitting animals for any reason, so those of you that think you should get away with hitting your dog's behind because he annoys you should rethink your ways. There are other ways to communciate disapproval to an animal than striking it. Just like there are other ways to say you are upset with someone other than punching them or slapping them.

Animals deserve our respect, protection, and love. And to the comments on PETA: Yes, PETA is at times tyrannical, but they are possibly the most successful organizations in the field. We all know of them because of their success. Not many organizations enjoy such international success. I think we would all benefit from learning from them. Visit for more info.

beatrice 12 years, 2 months ago

For once I agree with bankboy! The judges out there are crazy lunatics driven to levels of deprevity by the waning and waxing of the moon's cycles. Take this Alito guy, for instance ...

you can read about it at

sunflower_sue 12 years, 2 months ago

PETA does not believe in keeping animals as pets. (Maybe I should turn my 8 pound dog out into the cold to freeze and starve...whichever comes first.)

PETA puts animals to death all the time.

PETA has given money to people who BOMB clinics.

Yeah, they are such a great organization! NOT!!!

beatrice 12 years, 2 months ago

Correct. The above is not a real link.

jonas 12 years, 2 months ago

Holy @#$$ bankboy, do you know what that story means? It means Clark Kent now walks among us!

harrierist: Stop, you're making me hungry. mmmmmm. . . moaning cow meat, ahhrrghghlhglglhglghglah.

For the question, I think a more effective method would be subjecting the folk doing the cruelty to the same thing that they were subjecting their pets to.

bankboy119 12 years, 2 months ago

Abusing something that cannot fight back is the biggest sign of weakness. It doesn't take any genius whatsoever to hurt something without defenses.

Exactly right vegan. Now with that comment another few cases come into play. What about the child rapists that the judges set free? Pretty easy to hurt something that can't defend itself. The biggest case of all though is how many unborn babies are murdered every year? Screw the animals, save the babies.

(I still feel that animals should be saved but babies are much more important and need to be saved first.)

E_M sorry I haven't been able to get on for a few days...I think for about 4 and now I've been able to get back on the last couple.

bankboy119 12 years, 2 months ago

lol jonas I was just being sarcastic. It was kind of nice to find a story on Kansas that didn't deal with evolution or Dorothy for a change though.

jonas 12 years, 2 months ago

And a bone for the pro-life flamers. . . . . . . In comparing the possible hypocrisy of supporting anti-animal cruelty leg. and the viability of abortion, perhaps the threshold is where the pre-born fetus develops fully enough to have a greater spectrum of sensory perception, and higher-level response/reaction to stimulus, than the average animal. After all, since humans are animals, what obviously makes us special is our capacity for high level thought. Therefore, before such development takes place, there is no distingishable ethical difference between an unborn human being and, at various times, monkeys, dogs, cats, cows, grass, fungus.

And yes, although I'm formulating hypothesis, I'm just talking out my @#$. Perhaps Ubermime could check my work if he checks in at some point today.

willa 12 years, 2 months ago

Jonas, if you weren't already married, I'd be chasing you down and trying to bribe you with a big ol' hamburger to be my special friend .

bankboy119 12 years, 2 months ago

Jonas you could have a point if it were true that everytime I had a burger I was eating cousin Bessie and the mosquito that was sucking my blood was family and just needed nourishment. Fortunately though that's not true.

samsnewplace 12 years, 2 months ago

bankboy119....forgive me thinking justice would actually happen in Douglas County, I forgot where I was today I guess. You are right, i've seen alot of bad decisions by judges. Everyone does make mistakes...I think they make more than the usual.

Aiko 12 years, 2 months ago

alphavegan, do you have any pets? I first agree with the majority of your post but am curious if you have any?

badger 12 years, 2 months ago

Hey, alphavegan-

Study a little animal behavior sometime that isn't PETA propaganda.

In actuality, what I do to discipline a dog for anything more serious than putting a nose in my food or standing on my head while I'm trying to sleep is flip the animal over and hold it there with its neck and stomach exposed until it whines or shows me its throat. With cats, I grab the shoulders and gently but firmly force the animal down until its stomach touches the ground and hold it there until the tension goes out of its muscles and it lays its tail flat and is no longer laying its ears back. Once it does, I let it up and reward it with petting and a kind word. I am the alpha in my house, and the animals are to know that and act accordingly. I provide them with the food, I care for the lower-ranking animals, I groom them, and they are weaker than I, despite their claws and teeth. Understanding dominance relationships within a pack or a pride means you are actually able to discipline a pet in ways that are meaningful and effective.

A swat is used quite frequently within the animal kingdom. It means, especially among felines, "Hey, you're in my space and I am using it right now. Get out, or I'll flip you over again. You know full well I can best you." So, when the cat sticks her nose in my dinner, she gets a swat, not as a discipline, but as a warning to back off that she will understand.

And by the way, you assume a lot. Not everyone who swats or disciplines an animal is angry at it, or even annoyed. Some of the food I eat, like chocolate ice cream, could make my cat very ill, and she doesn't need to be stealing it. Good pet owners NEVER strike a pet out of anger, fear, or annoyance, much as good parents never spank when they're angry.

BunE 12 years, 2 months ago

The american judiciary is the most evenhanded in the world. The right wing actions to demonize the judiciary is worse than a lie. It is an attempt to corrupt and destroy the foundations of our goverment. "Activist judge" is a made up term that conservatives trot out every time a court does not rule the way they want. Notice they were calling for activist judges for the terri schiavo debacle.

The pathetic attempts of the radical right to frame arguments are wearing thin. You moan about abortion but are happy to push the plunger to take a convicts life or cut medicare. You hide behind jesus' robes and look down upon the poor. (incidentally 75% of americans below the poverty line are either children, the handicapped or women) You cut taxes and call it fair then run up HUGE deficits for the next couple of generations. You try to scare us into thinking corporations are going to leave unless we reduce their tax burdon, but ignore the fact that if they leave, no one will have enough money to buy their stuff! You cryout "Free Market" but support corporate welfare, price controls and blame consumers or labor when corporations make bad business decisions. You complain about the state of education and loss of local control in America and then clap as educational standards are lowered and watered down by no child left behind. You worry about Huck Finn but are afraid to explain birth control. You allow the FDA to withold a vaccine for HPV, one that will keep women from DYING of uterine cancer because you are afraid kids will have more sex.

Keep sticking your head in the sand. Keep ignoring the real issues. Change is in the air. Radical conservative thought has been exposed as the festering lie that it is. You can be a part of America or you can not. Your call.

Oh, and if you set an animal on fire, you need to go to jail for at least 2 years.

neopolss 12 years, 2 months ago

alphavegan, I would urge you to reconsider your view of PETA. It is not an organization that saves animals.


Peta kills thousands of animals, every year. PETA's own records reflect this. An astonishing 80% of the animals that PETA rescues, it kills. No animal shelter in America has a record of euthanization so high. Many animals are being injected and killed before PETA has even left the parking lot.

PETA's donations speak for themselves. Money donated to a convicted arsonist. Should you support such a crime? The facts are real, as stated in PETA's own records, how many animals it has killed, and who gets all of the money.

Think again about PETA. They are an extremist terrorist organization whose agenda is more marketing than actually helping.

jman 12 years, 2 months ago are NOT equal to humans..and take it from me.. they dont taste that well either..

dascoop40 12 years, 2 months ago

Of course animal cruelty should be a felony. One would have to logically extend that to non organic, non-free range farmers as well. However, we can only take one step at a time and police our community. I seriously believe (it's not just rhetoric) that if you think it should not be considered a felony you should be in therapy. As for you anti-choice people could you please get your minds off the subject just for one moment. There is a greater good other than your narrow translation of what you call christianity. Remember what you do to others you are doing to yourselves. When it comes to animal cruelty you shouldn't get all cute with us. This is serious and it is up to us to protect them.

BunE 12 years, 2 months ago

If by geesh you mean thanks! than you are welcome.

I gots to have my weekly rant!

bankboy119 12 years, 2 months ago

bun did you write that yourself or take it off Lulu's website? Because if you did write it yourself then I have to congragulate you on the way it was written. It was a very good Op piece. Unfortunately, there wasn't enough concrete evidence in there to support your claims. I'd like some spefic examples of the claims you make.

And just for the record, taking a rapist/murderer/serial killer/psychopath life is a different situation than a defenseless unborn child. If you claim otherwise then we may as well stop punishing anyone who murders. Crap, let's let them continue to run the streets. I mean come on, BTK wasn't THAT bad of a guy. He just made mistakes. (For anyone that doesn't realize the statement about BTK was sarcastic please get help.)

sunflower_sue 12 years, 2 months ago

Badger, very well said (11:20)

E_M, hillarious! where do you find this stuff? I should know better than to go to one of your links while I'm eating or drinking something. (I'm tired of wiping the nose goblins off my keyboard!)

neopolss 12 years, 2 months ago

dascoop40, while you may seem certain of it needing to be a felony, many of us, especially myself, do not trust our justice system to make the right call between the varying degrees of animal cruelty. Yes, at one point I did throw firecrackers at frogs (I was 10). While I see that as very mean now, I certainly don't need a felony on record for something like that. Nor would I want city and state resources being used to prosecute high profile animal abuse cases when there are more pressing matters. For goodness sakes, how long did this Moonbar incident get dragged on? It should have been dropped and done with, but instead someone saw fit to continue wasting public money to prosecute Giddens (when most of us could care less).

I'm off track, but anyway, felony is okay if outlined correctly, but usually when we give an ok on something, our friends in power manage to f it up in some form or other.

avhjmlk 12 years, 2 months ago

omb--you can demonstrate proper use of the litterbox at my house anytime, so long as you have better aim than our three furry boys do...Good thing we keep the sandpit in the garage, eh?

jman 12 years, 2 months ago

Geesh....although we are on completely opposite sides of the fence...probably on EVERYTHING... ill bet your fun to have a beer with

neopolss 12 years, 2 months ago

How does John Roberts have time to be a nurse AND a supreme court justice?


Purell 12 years, 2 months ago


Neopolss - Peta kills 5 animals per day, just in one city - wow! Does all that meat & fur go to waste?

e_m Have you ever seen Vivian's cat?

ms_c enjoying the roundabouts of Lawrence yet?

alphavegan 12 years, 2 months ago

I don't have time to read all these comments, but I saw someone asked me specifically if i have animals. Oh, yes indeed. 2 cats and a the moment. I've grown up in a petting zoo. Not just felt like that. We've had pretty much every kind of "pet" you can imagine. Dogs, cats, rabbits, birds, fish, iguanas, ferrets, snakes, lizards, mice, guinea pigs, hamsters, etc. The list goes on and on. I have never struck my dog. (Nor any of my animals.) I have never found it necessary.
And no, PETA is NOT against having pets. Silly people! I have been a member of PETA for years. The founder, Ingrid, owns several pets. They encourage it. Where do you people get your information? They discourage animal abuse and cruelty. That's it. And sometimes they take drastic measures to secure safety for animal lives. But again, this thread is about the question, not PETA.

avhjmlk 12 years, 2 months ago

Yes, I'm quite an afficianado of all bobs, original and additional.

neopolss 12 years, 2 months ago

Sometimes they [PETA] take drastic measures to secure safety ... like killing them by the hundreds.

lunacydetector 12 years, 2 months ago

For all the pro-choice animal rights activists: We know that the thing in the womb is alive: it has a heart beat from 2 weeks after conception; it has detectable brain waves from 6 weeks--and abortions don't take place before 6 weeks. So the thing in the womb is, at least, a living animal. And it might very well, from an early period, be capable of feeling pain--certainly it moves and responds to stimuli, and movement and perception, it might be argued, must be coupled with some rudimentary ability to feel pleasure and pain. So then, I assume that you think that people ought to be compassionate towards animals. Perhaps you are even a vegetarian and opposed to killing animals on principle. How, then, can you consistently support legal abortion?

In every abortion the fetus is cut into pieces, ripped or torn apart, or poisoned. No one would want to treat a small kitten or puppy in that manner, nor does the law allow to do so, so why should we allow anyone to treat immature human beings in that way up until delivery?

Confrontation 12 years, 2 months ago

I think too much time and money is wasted on animals. People donate to the humane society instead of other social agencies that help humans. What a waste! Children are going hungry, but Fido is getting his Kibbles! I totally agree that animals should not be tortured, but we've got to put a focus on more important things. Maybe we can put all the rapists and molesters in jail to help protect women and children, rather than punishing men who throw rabbits. Animals shouldn't be tortured, but save the money and jail space for those criminals who are hurting humans.

badger 12 years, 2 months ago

Heartbeat at two weeks?

Pretty interesting, given that at two weeks after conception, the fetus doesn't even have a circulatory system, and thus no heart or blood vessels for it to push blood through. What, exactly, is beating?

You do know that at two weeks past conception, the mother usually hasn't even missed a period yet, right? Conception is most likely to occur on Day 14 of a 28 day cycle (the 'fertile period' is considered to be anywhere from day 9 to day 19, though, so if she conceived on the very last day possible by the math, I will concede that at 2 weeks her period could be as much as a week late), and the period starts again at day 1. This 'heartbeat at two weeks' nonsense is bad science being used by people who mean well.

It's all well and good to be opposed to abortion, but please do it with accurate biology, not scare propaganda. In any case, I don't really get the 'you should be anti-choice if you're opposed to animal cruelty' angle, myself. I think it's a pretty handy smokescreen.

Aiko 12 years, 2 months ago

Alphavegan, you are very wrong about PETA but I will not argue, too tired. They do pay people to burn things down and to get their people out of legal woes for breaking the law. But if it makes you feel better I guess do it. The way I look at it is that my dog protects me unconditionally so I owe that back. If people cannot treat animals with that type of compassion then they would do the same to humans, eventually. Just my opinion.....go mountain girl!

Liberty 12 years, 2 months ago


The point is not the level of development of a person whether it is okay to kill them or not. The point is that it is the taking of the life of a person. Abortion is the taking of a person's life. We have laws against murder. Do you really want to support murder?
I would hope not.

As far as the question goes, my answer is no, it should not be a felony. However, restitution or fine should not be paid to the court, but to the person who suffered the loss of their animal. If the animal is unowned, the restitution should be paid to the animal shelter to care for animals up for adoption.

Aiko 12 years, 2 months ago

but doesn't something have to be alive in order to "kill"it. What about DNA?

Ceallach 12 years, 2 months ago

It is obvious they should not have asked this question when the moon is so nearly full!!

I'm intrigued by the number of people who say -- only if it's malicious, intentional, etc., etc., etc. No one is un-intentionally C R U E L. Otherwise it would be an oversight or just an accident, everyone knows that accidents happen. (Unless you are eight years old and a wild child :)

Ceallach 12 years, 2 months ago

Have a good day all, I'm off to the airport to pick up a friend.

: )

badger 12 years, 2 months ago


My point wasn't about the morality of abortion. My point is that if you use propaganda and incorrect facts to support your argument, whether you're PETA or Operation Rescue, you hurt your argument because you destroy your own credibility.

For example, if lunacydetector doesn't check his facts well enough to find that even the most basic rudimentary circulatory functions don't really start until at the earliest four weeks after conception, why should anything else he claims to be fact be taken at face value?

Ceallach, I'm not sure that I can agree that cruelty is always fully intentional. Many things that are cruel come about because of a lack of awareness. Tethering a dog outside on a freezing night can be cruel, but it's unintentionally so if you don't know that his chain is wrapped around a tree and he can't get to the doghouse with the electric blanket. The cruelty is born of carelessness in that case, but a lot of people would call it cruel nonetheless not to check the chain length.

The reason I specified that it should be malicious and intentional to merit a felony is because there are different definitions of cruelty based on who's doing the defining, and I don't know if current Kansas law lays out the difference between what is cruel and what is merely careless or negligent.

BunE 12 years, 2 months ago

Observer, the beauty of the blogoshere is that one is participating in conversation. You see, conversations happen when a group of people begin discuss issues and situations and the impact one thing has on another. We have opinions (or in my case iron clad-truths hahahah) that just burst forth! Its all very exciting. You can start with animals and end up talking about cheese...(MMMMMMMMCHeese) It fun, healthly and human.

Now, you can either join in and express or get out of the way.

If you can't focus on anything other than following non-existent rules on a message board, than you must lead a very poor existance.

BunE 12 years, 2 months ago

Observer, the beauty of the blogoshere is that one is participating in conversation. You see, conversations happen when a group of people begin discuss issues and situations and the impact one thing has on another. We have opinions (or in my case iron clad-truths hahahah) that just burst forth! Its all very exciting. You can start with animals and end up talking about cheese...(MMMMMMMMCHeese) Its fun, healthly and human.

Now, you can either join in and express or get out of the way.

If you can't focus on anything other than following non-existent rules on a message board, than you must lead a very poor existance.

BunE 12 years, 2 months ago

And I must repeat myself...oops!~

And I must repeat myself...oops!~

avhjmlk 12 years, 2 months ago

Has anyone ever heard of the name "Wavis" before? (Talk about getting off subject!)

avhjmlk 12 years, 2 months ago

I've heard of Mavis and Davis, but is Wavis really a first name?

BunE 12 years, 2 months ago

Wavis O'Shave is an eccentric English musician and comedian who has released several cult classics including the album Anna Ford`s Bum. Also appeared several times on Channel 4's 1980's music programme "The Tube" as a character known as the Hard. He has also recorded under the name Foffo Spearjig.

Is that the guy?

avhjmlk 12 years, 2 months ago

No, actually it was a name on a list of contact numbers for some research I'm doing. I had just honestly never heard it before. Now that I know it's an actual name, I should stop being so judgmental.

jonas 12 years, 2 months ago

Ubermime: I wouldn't advocate the killing or torturing of a monkey, either. Except for maybe GrapeApe, but that's a whole 'nuther story altogether. (he keyed my car)

As for the rest, I would agree with the statement that a human is a human, but that wasn't the point I was putting forward (although you bring up some pointed facts). The question I have is: what's so intrinsically special about humans? The only thing (aside from the obvious that I happen to be one) is our level of intellect or higher order reasoning. But, as you state, there are other animals capable of those sorts of things, which is where I based my hypothesis. And then, if such things that make something special (at least in this hypothetical ethical argument) were taken away, would the being then still have that apparent advantage.

Of course, this is a rather convoluted smokescreen of my real argument that there are NO universal ethics, that everything is subjective except for degrees of probability and that, when it comes to ethics, we're ALL just, as I said before, talking out of our @#$.

Except for the one universal truth, of course. All things are better with ninjas.

jonas 12 years, 2 months ago

And for those of you willing to doubt the one universal truth, then I present this visualization exercise.

botany. . . . . . . . botany WITH NINJAS!!!!

Presidential debates. . . . . Presidential debates WITH NINJAS!!!!!

librarians. . . . . . .NINJA LIBRARIANS!!!!

and so on.

BunE 12 years, 2 months ago

I know a ninja librarian. SHe rocks! NINJA STYLE!

bearded_gnome 12 years, 2 months ago


yes, Cealach, asking this question near full moon...

actually I'm glad to see OTS asking useful questions which require something beyond the brain stem to answer. good OTS!

I have written in comments to this paper's articles before of the need of Kansas to add felony animal cruelty that case a few months where the guy threw a rabit out the second story window.

Cealach is right, no such thing as unintensional cruelty unless you really are psychotic.

by the way, psychopaths, or now, sociopaths have a good handle on our common reality, but lack empathy and remorse.

for once, I am shocked to say, I have agreed strongly with Badger's posts [except his answer at 1;57pm in defense of abortion].

I also have argued that Kansas needs to add another set of statutes: interference with a service animal, misdee and felony.

I am the alpha in my home too. I trained gnomedog in obedience. occasionally, I use a "leash correction" a brief sharp tug on the leash, accompanied by "NO!"

I, too, groom, feed, protect, and comfort him. having known the love of many dogs in my life, I know that animal cruelty, besides the dog fighting, is also sometimes demonstration violence performed by a violent "see this, I could do this to you!"

often cruelty to an animal does include a form of terror and loss for one or more persons.

I sincerely hope that this time, the felony animal cruelty statutes will go in for Kansas, written with good definitions which a wacko judge can't screw up.

okay, so, the toilet works fine today here!

Gonna miss you Even_Money!

and, if OMB is using AVH...'s box, I hope AVH... doesn't live nextdoor!

hope that friend doesn't weigh too much, which you're picking up Cealach...yell if you need help!

bye, back in a few hours. mostly, a very good discusiion here today.

p.s. also, some misguided PETA types have actually protested against working guide dogs, saying that they are being tortured, and imprisoned, even heckling trainers and blind folks in San Francisco...these trainers, students and dogs were from Guide Dogs for the Blind, San Rafael CA...>>

so...i leave you now.

beatrice 12 years, 2 months ago

jonas: your Ninja line makes me think of adding the phrase "in bed" at the end of a fortune cookie. Try it. It works. "Happiness will soon come your way ... in bed!" "One can never have too many friends ... in bed!" "Be kind to animals ... in bed!" okay, maybe it doesn't work every time.

thunderbuns 12 years, 2 months ago

Observer: if you were a dog I'd kick ya.

And use spell check once in awhile.

jonas 12 years, 2 months ago

Ubermime: Well, I ran out of time, had to go to Tae Kwon Do. Besides, as it's universal, I would have forgotten something if I failed to include anything.

oldfashiongirl 12 years, 2 months ago

Jonas, you have it right just like the Good Book tells us: "Do unto others as ye would have them do unto you."

As God made us all(see Genesis 1) including beasts, cattle, fish and man in his likeness, I take it that "others" would include animals. No, I would never harm an animal and certainly would not want to be treated as some of the examples that have been discussed above.

sunflower_sue 12 years, 2 months ago

Thunderbuns, this site has spellcheck? If so, please tell me where to find it. I'm sure many of us could benefit from your inside information. (Especially me since I usually type more quickly than I'm actually capable of so as to not lose a train of thought.):)

sunflower_sue 12 years, 2 months ago

Ms_Canada, have you safely made it to the Land of Oz? What do you think of our trap-door buffalos and prairie squid?

On that neighbor had to pick porcupine quills out of one of her steers the other day! Yeash! What next?

bearded_gnome 12 years, 2 months ago impressive again today!

I have always believed that God made dogs in a particular way to demonstrate certain qualities of angels.

these days, there are also miniature horses being trained to replace guide dogs. however, they have to wear little leather booties for indoor work.

thunderbuns 12 years, 2 months ago


Actually, there isn't a spell checker. I was just tryin' to bug Observer cuz he deserved it at the moment. But don't tell him, or anyone else!!! SSHHHHHhhhhhhh........

Gnome: is your name Gnorm?

bearded_gnome 12 years, 2 months ago

gno, gname is gnot gnorm, gneither is it gnorbert. my gname is in the Bible, however. single sylable.
hey TB: "girl with the gold boots on!" that was funny even without the running commentary!

wow, porcupine quills in the steer. where'd the steer catch 'em?

bearded_gnome 12 years, 2 months ago

Badger, I am only now getting to read the end of this thread and I apologize for a too hastey summarizing of your post. indeed no heartbeat at two weeks.

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