Advertisement

Previous   Next

Will the new science standards affect the makeup of the State Board of Education?

Asked at Massachusetts Street on November 10, 2005

Browse the archives

Photo of Walt Hull

“I sure hope so. I hope that we elect a school board that has some notion of what science is.”

Photo of Jana LeBlanc

“Yes, definitely. Just like it did in Pennsylvania. I think people want to see evolution taught and not creation science, especially if Kansas is to be held up to national education standards.”

Photo of Evan Smith

“I think there will be a change. Last time they did this, they were thrown out, and I think the same thing will happen this time. The fight will continue.”

Photo of Kate Naramore

“I think there is a possibility that people will run in response, and I think the people who changed the standards will be surprised at who comes out to oppose them.”

Related story

Comments

Linda Aikins 8 years, 11 months ago

Go Mike! I love it when people say "notion."

0

Linda Aikins 8 years, 11 months ago

Oops - got up too early. I meant WALT!!!

0

enochville 8 years, 11 months ago

It looks like I jumped the gun when I answered today's question yesterday.

Quote:

Posted by enochville (anonymous) on November 9, 2005 at 11:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Did you guys see this?

Voters came down hard Tuesday on Dover, Pa., school board members who ordered a statement on intelligent design read in biology class, ousting eight Republicans and replacing them with Democrats who want the concept stripped from the science curriculum. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/11/0...

I believe this will happen in our own Board of Education as well. And new curriculum will be written taking ID out.

0

neopolss 8 years, 11 months ago

We'll see if this board starts changing stories soon after the PA election. Sorry board, but the support for ID is far less than what is needed to keep you in those seats. Quite frankly, we'd prefer to keep it called science class, not the study of God's miracles, or witchcraft, or some other nonsense.

Honestly, if the followers of ID can really call such a thought scientific, then why even have science? Since the belief has now switched away from trying to explain things to simply decreeing "God made it," then perhaps we can do away with most science. And why not medicine as well, since it is in the realm of science. If someone gets sick we'll simply pray for their health, and perhaps sacrifice a goat. Gravity? That's simply the tool of the devil, always trying to pull you to hell.

0

neopolss 8 years, 11 months ago

The reason I have a problem with the vouchers Jane, is that I see it as a quick fix to a growing problem. Parents are wanting to shift their children into private schools because of concerns over public education. Vouchers become like medicaid to the private schools, and I see the state eventually negociating rates to get the cheapest price. The end result will be that the private system becomes the new public education, and we start the whole cycle over again. I could be wrong, but I tend to believe that politicians who are urging this have something else going on with it.

The substandard education would be the farther you go west in Kansas, where less money was being given.

0

sweatpeagj 8 years, 11 months ago

I'm not sure that I agree with you Neopolss. Private schools do not have to go as far as public schools. I would be greatly saddened that the private schools my children go to now would end up in the bind that we see facing public schools. I am hoping that they would show more pride than to haggle over education. I could be way off base here though. I do not doubt that some have a different reason for the Voucher than is currently being seen.

0

beatrice 8 years, 11 months ago

It looks like we will have a bit of re-hash with our daily conversation today. Oh well. I'm afraid my thoughts on this topic haven't evolved since yesterday, so I will just stay out of the "on topic" part of today's discussion.

Any Kate Bush fans out there? After 12 years she has a new double cd out. Listened to it last night -- simply wonderful.

0

sweatpeagj 8 years, 11 months ago

I wanted to ask a question that is off the topic today...did anyone else hear about California polling children as young as seven trying to find out how much they new about sex? They are trying to determine wether sex education needs to be taught at a younger targeted group. Does anyone consider this to be a problem in itself?? It would seem to me that they are creating an agenda to teach them earlier. I know that after having my child polled when they were that young would result in me having to "have the talk" at a much earlier stage than either one of us are prepared to have.

0

Sigmund 8 years, 11 months ago

I'm Pro Choice when the question is who decides where kids get their education. Support parents right to choose, supoort taxpayer funded vouchers. Give more parents the right to decide where their kids get educated, and what sceince standards are used in teaching them.

0

gccs14r 8 years, 11 months ago

No vouchers. The Catholics don't need any more money to spread their brand of morality.

0

jonas 8 years, 11 months ago

There are really still blacksmiths in operation?

Walt, could you forge me a sword?

0

staff04 8 years, 11 months ago

I do believe that the composition of the school board will change some as a result of this decision by the school board. The gubernatorial election in Virginia yesterday was being widely considered to be a litmus test for the attitudes of the nation, and a Democrat beat a conservative Republican in several Republican strongholds, including Virginia Beach, which is home to our favorite televangelist, Pat Robertson. I think that the conservative movement is losing ground because of the brand of religious zealotry we saw from the BOE yesterday. Republicans have, for the last several years, behaved as if they were the only ones who could attract values voters, but when their own values were compromised, people saw through it. Yesterday in Virginia, New Jersey, California and Minnesota, the voters spoke.

BTW--In St. Paul Minnesota, they ousted Mayor Randy Kelly a year after he publicly backed Bush for re-election. Also, many who followed the Virginia race believe that a Bush appearance at a Kilgore fundraiser actually cost him Republican votes that he would have previously had wrapped up.

The tide is changing, IMO.

0

sunflower_sue 8 years, 11 months ago

It's all just a giant game of tennis. I just hope my kids aren't caught speaking their minds when the ball is in the other court. Wait, maybe I do!

Sweatpea, I think parents should talk to their kids about sex from the get go. My kids have always known the correct names for their "parts" and what those "parts" are for. They know about hormones and what they will cause them to want to do someday...no matter how farfetched they think it is at the age of 7. They do not hold back when talking about sex because it has always been talked about. They know exactly how they came to be here. (GROSS! Mom and Dad do THAT? giggles) I say the earlier the better. Sure makes communication easier down the road when you really want to know what's going on in their little heads. (No pun intended!)

0

Aiko 8 years, 11 months ago

I wonder if they will attempt to teach Scientology in classes next and/or fit it in somewhere somehow?

0

christie 8 years, 11 months ago

November 2008: The End of an ERROR

0

jonas 8 years, 11 months ago

O-Bob: Indeed. I had just about given up hope that when evil returns, the sword of the king could be reforged. All is not darkness, now.

0

Larry 8 years, 11 months ago

I have no problem with the BOE. It's about time that we get back to our traditions and stop letting the liberals ruin our country. We have gone to no religion anywhere, anytime; convicts have more rights and better insurance than many working Americans; people get sued over silly and ridiculous things; teachers are viewed as the problem to education rather than our parenting and media influences; etc. etc. etc. A society cannot survey without values and morals.

0

Larry 8 years, 11 months ago

I have no problem with the BOE. It's about time that we get back to our traditions and stop letting the liberals ruin our country. We have gone to no religion anywhere, anytime; convicts have more rights and better insurance than many working Americans; people get sued over silly and ridiculous things; teachers are viewed as the problem to education rather than our parenting and media influences; etc. etc. etc. A society cannot survey without values and morals. Of course I don't live in Lawrence or DG county, so my comments will be in the minority by a long shot.

0

staff04 8 years, 11 months ago

TOB-- Don't you know? Our founding fathers established religion in the constitution!

snicker

0

willa 8 years, 11 months ago

Larry, how is it that convicts' insurance, a litigious society and religion are all tied up together? I think we need a sword from Walt to separate some things out of this mess. I don't really understand how a lack of religion or an embracing of religion would lead to better insurance for working Americans....

0

rhd99 8 years, 11 months ago

Deja Vu all over again! They did this in 1999, & look what happened THEN! Abrams & Morris are going to pay a BIG price at the polls maybe not next year but the year or 2 after that. The time to clean house at that Board of Education of Kansas is NOW! STOP messing with our children's minds, KS BOE! Conservatives on the BOE, your time is up! You are the weakest links. G-BYE!

0

willa 8 years, 11 months ago

Dang you both, Jonas and TOB. When Walt makes my battle-ax, it'll be so much cooler than your swords.

0

willa 8 years, 11 months ago

Perhaps if I were more evolved, I would have greater patience. And I have a tremendous amount of faith in Walt and his will -- once he forges some weaponry, I think I will try to incorporate my belief that he forged the world with his magic hands into the public science class. Seems a fitting tribute.

0

beatrice 8 years, 11 months ago

I wonder if Walt dreamed of being a blacksmith as a child?

0

ms_canada 8 years, 11 months ago

beatrice - I am a huge fan of Kate Bush, just love her. Have most of her CD's. My favourite song of hers is Wuthering Heights. I also love WOW, and Oh England, My Lionheart. What is your favourite? Akin to the topic of the day, in our school system, parents declare which school system they want for their child, Public or Catholic, to enter and then their school tax goes to that system, but oh what a hullabaloo was generated when the evangelical private schools wanted the same payment as the Catholic schools. I am not sure how that fight turned out. People got really hostile. Aren't people just the stupidest things on this earth?

0

ms_canada 8 years, 11 months ago

prospecter and TOB - if you can't find a blacksmith under that heading, look under farriers. I have an acquaintance who is a farrier and he makes a pretty good living following the rodeo circuit around the country. The US country, that is. North country in summer and south in winter.

Any more Kate Bush fans out there?

0

ms_canada 8 years, 11 months ago

Prospector - we don't really think of it as a subsidy. It's just part of our tax system that directs the funds to the appropriate sector of the school system and yes the evangelicals do get some of the taxes but the fight was due to them not receiving the full amount that the other boards received. That does not seem fair to me or many others.

0

beatrice 8 years, 11 months ago

ms_c, so glad to learn of your good musical taste! I have every cd by Kate Bush, so picking a favorite song is difficult -- Army Dreaming is great and haunting, Lionheart is such a beautiful song and wonderful album (originally owned the albums, of course, which have now been replaced by cd), but overall I think The Dreaming is still my overall favorite cd. But then again I think Hounds of Love is terrific -- Cloudbursting, Big Sky, etc. I can't decide! Anyway, the new double cd is terrific -- heavy percussion, more sedate and grown up than earlier outings. Missing are the remarkable leaps in vocals and the piercingly high notes of her four octave range, replaced by a slightly earthier sound and amazing technique. I hope you get a chance to hear it before too long.

On another off-topic note, ms_c -- the move I mentioned to you before is happening. We will be relocating to Phoenix, Arizona soon. I have been here off and on for the past month or so. Wonderful area in which I grew up. The temp was in the high 80s yesterday, and I enjoyed a Corona while sitting out by the pool. Lovely. I will miss the change of seasons as experienced in Lawrence, but I will never have to shovel sun from the driveway!

0

beatrice 8 years, 11 months ago

More theaters than Walt has swords! They even have two, multi-screen drive-ins still open! (Heaven, I'm in Heaven, ...)

0

Aiko 8 years, 11 months ago

Beatrice, will you be in the Litchfield area? My brother runs a resort there and that area is very nice...

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

gccs14r--At least the kids who go to Catholic school learn about evolution.

I think that using the limited tax money the state has to begin with to pay for private schools is a big mistake. The Kansas Constitution requires the state to provide for a suitable public education. Public means just that--everyone has access to it. Private is the opposite, and can't be controlled by the government (in terms of standards, though in light of Tuesday, not all standards are worth enforcing). Additionally, those private schools wouldn't necessarily be required to give the same constitutional protections to its students that a public school must.

Who thinks (after they do the math) that siphoning money out of an already challenged public school system is going to help it become better? I mean, that's supposed to be the incentive, right? That the risk of losing students will force the public schools to perform better? Well, I'm here to tell you, folks. People won't wait to pull their children out of public school if the state will pay for private until they feel their child is being miseducated. They'll do it for the prestige, and, hey, if the gov't will pay for it, why not?

That's NOT the way to improve public schools. Seriously, some of the kids that need the public schools the most (kids with learning disabilities, kids whose parent's don't give a rip, kids whose parent's can't afford to pay the difference between the voucher and the tuition, and kids who WON'T QUALIFY ACADEMICALLY FOR PRIVATE SCHOOLS). These very kids are SO CRITICAL to our society, and if we let them fall off the cliff, we're all in big trouble.

0

beatrice 8 years, 11 months ago

Aiko, the Litchfield area is in the West valley, about 20 miles outside of central Phoenix, and yes, it is very nice indeed. Does your brother by chance run the Wigwam Resort? That is the big resort in that area that comes to mind, but I'm sure there are others. I will be living in North Phoenix, closer to Scottsdale and the East valley. It is beautiful right now, but I'm not looking forward to my first summer back. It may be a dry heat, but 115plus is impossible to explain for those who haven't experienced it. Was it hot like that in Iraq where you were?

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

And the major fallacy of the "my tax dollars should go to fund my child's education" argument is that no one's tax dollars ever directly go back to themselves personally. You, by having a portion of your property tax dollars go towards public education, are helping to pay for something that is a public good. Why the hell do we pay taxes to the government (no matter who controls it)? Because we entrust to the government the control of certain public goods, which they must be able to pay for and provide back to us.

Your business is receiving the benefit of your property (school) tax dollars when you have a suitably educated person apply for a position for which you are hiring. Your family receives the return on your educational tax dollars when the carpenter you hire to fix your sagging roof can do math right to calculate how much support that same roof needs. You personally are receiving the benefit of your education tax dollars when the doctor who was educated in a public school helps prevent horrible diseases from breaking out in our country/around the world through best medical practices and beneficial, life-saving research.

You wanna take your tax dollars away from public education? Then fend for yourself, and figure out a way to be your own sole employee, your family's carpenter, your personal physician, and then also create your own pharmeceuticals, perform your own surgery, and study your own body (for the purposes of learning more about the human body and its ailments) after you've died.

0

badger 8 years, 11 months ago

I think there will be change, and I hope it's change for the better.

I tend to agree with staff04 that the tide is turning and I think that we'll shift back towards the center. I like the center. Better things happen there, I believe, than at either edge. The edges are necessary to drive change, but they're not very nice places to live full time.

My preference is for the Executive and Legislative branches to be in opposition, and for councils, school boards, and smaller elected bodies to be pretty evenly mixed between conservative and liberal elements, because I think that the adversarial process serves the people better.

My hope is that enough of the really conservative element on the BOE is thrown out to balance things, but I don't necessarily want a strong liberal majority, because liberals tend to be great with ideas but not so good with implementation and finances.

By the way, Larry? With a Republican in the White House appointing two seats on the Supreme Court inside six months, and a Republican-controlled Congress, how again is it that the liberals are running the country? Do you know about some shadow government of which I'm unaware? If conservatives can't muster enough power to keep those pesky liberals from 'ruining' our country when they are essentially in control of two of three branches of government and strongly affecting the third, do they really deserve to be in power? You really accord that much power to the Hollywood elite and the majority of media? That seems a little naive, really, because if that shadow liberal conspiracy were really there and all that powerful, wouldn't John Kerry be President? I mean, if that pesky liberal media has so much power, how is it that their nefarious goals weren't met? If the people 'saw through' their machinations, then obviously, they're just not as powerful as the people who want to blame them say they are.

I'm pretty tired of this 'all the things that suck in this country are because the liberals/conservatives broke it' mentality. Hey, conservatives, you're not going to get organized Christian prayer back in school and keep it there. Hey, liberals, you're not going to exorcise every mention of religion from public life and keep it out. Get over yourselves and try this newfangled thing called 'compromise'. Come, feel the power of the middle side of the Force...

0

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 8 years, 11 months ago

I will support vouchers when private schools are required to take any student who comes to them with a voucher. They can not charge more than the voucher. If the public school can educate the student for that amount, so can private schools. Also public schools will have to provide the same accomadations for disabled students (physical, learning or behavior) that public schools do, including documentation. Also private schools must give state assessments, and apply by all the NCA, QPA, and NCLB regulations. They must have all the students passing in math and reading by 80%, including those with learning disabilities by 2012. They must be limited to the types of punishments they give to children, and take students whose parents are drug addicts, tv addicts, illiterate, or just don't care. It's not fair to compete if the playing field is uneven. That's like swimming a race with 1 hand tied behind your back. Comparing public schools to private schools is unfair.

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

Sorry...forgot a few key words in my 12:29 post.

Last paragraph, starting in the first line with "Seriously, some of the kids..." After the ) at the end of the sentence, it should say "will be hurt by taking money away from public schools"

I'm going to have to fire my editor.

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

dorothyhr, you are like my calmer, more subdued better half. Well said.

0

Aiko 8 years, 11 months ago

Beatrice, you hit it dead on. I go to the Wigwam as much as I can. Super nice golf course if you are into that and overall a great place to stay. I highly reccommend it to anyone who goes that way. I have family in West Texas so that kind of heat I am use to. I would have to say that I honestly cannot compare Iraq/Afghanistan to the other temperature wise.

0

sunflower_sue 8 years, 11 months ago

Ms_C, I will attempt to answer your ?: "Aren't people just the stupidest things on earth?" Well, I dunno! How long to I get to ponder this?

Kate Bush??? Got me curious...going to have to look her up.

Also, I like the idea of sending my tax $$ where I choose. That would be nice.

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

Also, if you want to take your tax dollars out of education, try being your own police force and military, too.

For that matter, go ahead and be the Legislature as well. Most of them, at some point in their childhood or adult life, were benefitted by the public education system.

0

Sigmund 8 years, 11 months ago

I must have missed something. No one is forcing anyone to go to private schools. If parents want their kids to go to public schools, or don't have an attractive alternative, then the voucher money goes to public schools. I really don't understand the fear, especially if Kansas public schools are so darn good. If that is really the case then all the voucher money will go to public schools.

Individual Kansas public schools are funded largely on a per student basis, the more students the more funding. If fewer students atttend public schools they will still have the same per student funding they have now. What is the big deal?

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

I'm sorry. I know I'm being militant about this, but it is critical to recognize the fact that, without public education, this country would fall on its face. The majority of the public did not go to private schools from preschool-grad school. As a matter of fact, there's probably not a majority in any profession, except maybe ministerial professions, of people who were educated solely by private schools.

Even if there were, where do you think THEIR teachers went to school?

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

The big deal is that, incrementally, it doesn't cost a school district $3,560 (or whatever the current per-pupil is) less to educate 9,999 instead of 10,000 students. Until you've removed entire classes worth of students, you can't reduce the number of teachers, administrators, janitors, librarians, heating bills, school busses, etc that are necessary to make a district "go" every day.

A district does not save money by enrolling fewer students. It just has less money to work with for everyone who is left.

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

That's why there's such a big hullabaloo about finding the "actual cost of educating one student" going around the Legislature. In theory, if you find out how much it ACTUALLY costs to educate one child, and you then allocated that much money per pupil to each district, then you would, again in theory, be able to remove one student and one student's per-pupil without a net financial effect on the district.

Incremental, variable, and step costs are all involved. It's just not a simple math problem when you insert the risk of having per-pupil amounts of money completely removed from the state's budget. Not only would you be taking that money away from the school district (which, as is rightly pointed out, wouldn't go to the district now if a parent opted to send his child to private school), but you'd also be removing that money from the state's coffers entirely.

0

sunflower_sue 8 years, 11 months ago

avhholdontherenellymlk, I didn't mean to imply I'm againt public education. Quite the contrary. My kids are in public schools. I just like the idea of choosing the particular school that they attend to get my $. I don't see what that has to do with the police and the military but maybe I'm missing something.

Ms_C, not jazzed with Kate Bush. I tried, though.

0

Larry 8 years, 11 months ago

Hey Badger - the conservatives have compromised way too long and that explains our current society. What is wrong with our society didn't occur since Bush took office. However, with Bush's nominations, maybe we can reverse the trend and get things back to the real intentions of our founding fathers. No one can dispute what the founding fathers real intentions were. Go back and read some of their writings. It is amazing how many times they talked about the importance of Christianity and God in our daily lifes and government, which explains why the founding fathers had our supreme court and congress opened meetings with prayer. Yup - that is a sure fire sign that our founding fathers wanted and intended to keep religion out of government OR was it simply they didn't want the government to have the control to mandated a specific denomination of Chrisitianity?

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

So the state would lose money that it uses to administer public school education on a statewide basis, or wherever those tax dollars end up going.

Vouchers only work financially if the state simply doesn't need that money. We all know that Kansas needs every last bleeding penny.

0

blessed3x 8 years, 11 months ago

If I may ask a question without being attacked, I would like to know, given the "fact" that all animals/fish/etc...evolved from the same single-celled organism, where did plants come from?

Did plants evolve from this same cell. That seems to be a provable or disprovable point. Do animals and plants have similar cells? If they do, that would tend to lend credibility to evolution.

If not, we are left to believe that plants evolved from their own "version" of this first cell. For this miracle to have happened once in the universe is amazing, for it to happen twice on the same planet is difficult to fathom.

This question comes from actual curiosity, not an agenda.

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

My point is that when you take money out of the public school system, you are doing it to the detriment of everyone who is still educated by that public system. If every parent who wanted to send their kid to private school (which is their right, no question) also got to take their tax dollars with them, the state's public education system would lose ungodly amounts of money, and the people we rely on every day to make our society move (and the people who will replace them in 20 years when current adults retire and current kids become adults) would be under- or poorly-educated as a result, and society as a whole will suffer.

0

Tony Kisner 8 years, 11 months ago

I was thinking about this BOE, why have one? What value do they add?

Easy answer get rid of this function.

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

I'm not opposed to sending my child(ren) to private school some day. But, if I do, I'll know that it is a personal, financial, educational, possibly religious choice that I am making for my family. I will be opting out of the perfectly fine education system available for my children, so it will be my responsibility to pay for it.

0

thunderbuns 8 years, 11 months ago

Rehash from yesterday.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

Yesterday was about evolution. Today we're griping about vouchers. Totally different.

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

It would be just like (if this were legally possible, which I don't think it is, but this is just a hypothetical...) deciding to hire your own personal security staff, which would have the same legal authority to use deadly force when necessary to protect you that the police does, and then telling your local government that, since you personally don't need the police, that the portion of your taxes that funds the police department ought to be refunded to you. Just because you don't want the police's help doesn't mean everyone else doesn't still need it.

0

Tony Kisner 8 years, 11 months ago

avhjmlk,

why would people leave the public system? If a equal product to private when people have the choice and both choices being equal either would have the same opportunity to be chosen. OK, then what if becuase of choice you improved your product either public or private you may draw more students to your school, and the other school would need to make a change to close the value gap or maybe under go some other change. = new leadership. Competion = better product.

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

Yeah, I'm always the one who gets the pleasure of dealing with the unpleasant "customer service" types on the phone when they are trying to screw us over. There's an Enterprise Rent-A-Car on S.M. Pkwy in OP that has experienced that. And, naturally, I won, and they didn't charge me the extra $20 they wanted to.

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

Yeah, (this is for Easy_Does_It), but the problem with that is that the public school system DOESN'T exist in a free market like the private schools do. It can't, because the government is REQUIRED to provide a suitable public education to our children.

0

sunflower_sue 8 years, 11 months ago

avhjmlk, how would you feel about your tax $ going to public school #1 and yet your child attends public school #2?

0

sunflower_sue 8 years, 11 months ago

avhjmlk, I only ask because all my tax $ used to go to Lawrence, but my kids went to school in Tongie.

0

sweatpeagj 8 years, 11 months ago

I think that a lot of parents have already chosen that their children are not recieving the education that they would like them to have. We have a large population of children that are now being home schooled. This isn't about private or public schools. This is about the quality of education that we feel is needed for our children to achieve their own success in life and to be able to hold their heads up when people ask about the education they have recieved. I am not saying that public education doesn't meet state mandated requirements because in most cases it does but does it teach enough that I would like my children to attend? I will be honest with you, I have three children that are currently in a private school and my oldest is the only one that attended public schools. He was one of the children that needed a little extra tutoring in some areas. He does have a handicapp. Even then, I felt that his educational needs were not being fulfilled. I and my ex decided that he needed something more. We let him decide in what type of school would he function better. We ended up enrolling him in a charter school for two years. For the first time, my son was learning at his pace and excelling. When he had to transfer again to Free State in Lawrence it was a huge disappointment for both of us. Moving was the reason. Even the counselor that we sat with upon re-enrolling him into public school was very negative. He told him that by entering this school my child would be "slumming it". I found this very offensive on several levels most of all on the effect it had on my son. He gave up that day on his education. Now this is a child that had tested out of his 11 grade classes in the charter school and was taking senior courses. Policy dictated that since my son was in the 11 grade at the time of transfer he was not able to take the classes deemed as senior. This is just an example of state guideleines and not the educational requirements of the student. My ninth grader in private school is already taking college courses. That is just one of the many options that they offer. Education at the level of an individuals learning abilities. For those of you that are interested in a private school many do have a waiver program that you can apply for. Budgeting and funding should not be the only reason that children have to go to a public school. I agree that public schools have gotten us this far but does it mean that we can't want a better education for our own children. Hell, I wish that I had gone to a school where they could accomidate my learning ability. With me, they felt that they could take a fourth grade student and enter them into the seventh grade. How would a child of 8 possible succeed when their peers are all 12 and 13?? If I had attended a private school my learning wouldn't have taken me away from same age children but just tailored my requirements to meet my needs.

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

That's fine, as long as the public schools are treated fairly for funding, etc. Again, the public school system is damaged if one school is allowed to be viewed as a pariah and therefore is backed into offering substandard education until the district decides to shut it down.

My tax dollars go to the public school system. My child(ren) (only have 1 so far) have the right to attend the public school to which they are assigned by district, or are allowed through other transfer means (depending on the state/district). And, on a per pupil basis, if my child attends school #2, then the per-pupil allocation (some of which I could assume came from my property taxes, which currently aren't enough to make even one annual per-pupil) for my child follows my child to school #2. That's the way the system currently works.

0

Tony Kisner 8 years, 11 months ago

Why required to provide suitable public education? Even if true it does not say required to provide in any particular manner.

If I get Food Stamps, maybe a requirement of Gov, don't let people starve. I don't need to go to government food store to use stamps.

Also can I sue the government if I'm not too well educated? - ie they failed on a promise.

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

I have to admit ignorance on the whole district-to-district question. That's a lot different than school-to-school.

I still think, though, that the district gets a per-pupil for your child.

Granted, if you are choosing to remove your child from the district to which they belong and into another, I don't know.

I think there are probably some tax law/statutory limitations to that based on the current funding formula, but, again, I plead ignorance.

0

thunderbuns 8 years, 11 months ago

Jane:

Thanks. I worry about you too...........

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz...........

0

sunflower_sue 8 years, 11 months ago

avhjmlk, thanks for the honest answer. We have moved and still live with a Lawrence address...but in the Tongie school district. I'm not sure where ALL of my tax $ goes but the Tongie school district now gets more $ for my kids than they used to.

Now, I gotta go. Ya'll have a nice day!

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

Public implies a "particular manner." It's public because the government controls it, the government pays for it, and the government requires children to attend it (if they don't opt out to a private school that meets the goverment's requirements).

If the government wanted to change the entire system and close all public schools and send everyone to private schools, it would have to regulate them much more highly than it does now because of the legal requirements of public education.

And, yes, you can sue the government if it doesn't provide a constitutionally suitable education. That's exactly what the school districts who felt that the funding formula was unconstitutional were suing for--that the government system of providing for education (through its funding formula) was not providing a suitable education to every child.

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

Remember, though, you won't win that case if the government provided you the education they are require do (which has been determined by many court cases, statutes, regulations, etc) and you just didn't do your part personally (by doing what you were able/capable of as a student).

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

sun_sue--If you live in Tongie district, then Tongie gets per-pupil for your kiddo.

It is true that city limits and school district boundaries can collide, but the funding is based on your school district.

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

Additionally, not everyone can be equally academically successful, which is an assumption that NCLB tries to make in some ways.

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

TOB--believe me, I am more than willing to admit that there are failing schools and failing districts (KCMO has a long history...), but they won't get better with LESS funding.

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

TOB--you're still one of my faves. Grade inflation makes everyone smarter, right?

0

badger 8 years, 11 months ago

Hey, Larry-

You're right; the founding fathers didn't specifically write in equal rights and treatment for nonChristian religions.

They also didn't write in equal rights and treatment for women, or blacks, or even white men who owned no land. Do you also propose revoking the rights of those groups to own property, vote, and hold public office, since they were not covered by the blanket of rights when the founders framed our government? I've actually read a great deal of what those esteemed gentlemen had to say, and the gist of it is this: "We are doing something large and magnificent, which will last until long after we are dead. It is imperative that we not limit that to only the things we can anticipate, because the only thing of which we can really be certain is that our descendants will face challenges and opportunities we cannot even imagine. Most important of all is that we give them tools to adapt as a nation to face a changing world."

You think the founders' intentions are so clear as to be beyond debate? Please do tell the Supreme Court, which exists for the sole purpose of determining if those laws developed by the legislative branch and approved by the executive are truly in line with the founders' intent and the framework set down by our Constitution. I'm sure they'll be glad of the time off, as you seem to have declared them redundant. Wait, wasn't the necessity for a judicial branch to interpret law recognized by...wait...don't tell me...I'll get it...oh, yeah, the founding fathers?

People who are not Christian are protected by the greater umbrella, of being citizens of a country born not out of Christian values, but out of a larger understanding that the values of all good and just people accord each person equality under the laws and privileges of this nation.

Finally, if the current state of affairs is what passes for compromise in your perception, I imagine you and I probably don't use the same dictionary.

0

beatrice 8 years, 11 months ago

sun_sue: Kate Bush can be difficult to appreciate in small doses. I recommend seeing if the library has any cds to check out. With extended play you may find more there to appreciate. Or not. It is music and one person's Bach is, well, another person's Bach -- if you get my meaning. Thanks for taking a moment to listen, though. (Also, can all y'all believe I am talking favorably about anyone named Bush today!)

Aiko: Good for you to be able to stay at the Wigwam! I understand that it is one of the finer resorts in the country, not just in Arizona.

thunderbuns: you've got to wake up, man! Pay attention. Our discussion today isn't about the school board or evolution or ID (okay, the discussion I'm taking part in isn't), it is about musical tastes, theaters, and blacksmithing! So come on -- take a side already!

0

badger 8 years, 11 months ago

Bobs (the original and one more)

Thank you, by the way, for your compliments. I am putting my public school education (K-12 + a state school for my Bachelor's) to good use, then?

I agree with the statement that the voucher program, if it's set out with an eye towards equality (private schools will have to take all students with vouchers equally regardless of income or social strata, and conform to state educational standards), will just turn private schools into public schools. A lot of what makes private schools 'better' is that they have a certain degree of freedom to set their own rules and expectations for students, and their own testing and disciplinary practices. They can more easily expel students who don't fit their particular mold. I somehow doubt that will stand under a voucher program, and the general standard of available education will just go right back to where it is right now, at the expense of a lot of time and taxpayer money.

0

jonas 8 years, 11 months ago

Posted by willa (anonymous) on November 10, 2005 at 10:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Dang you both, Jonas and TOB. When Walt makes my battle-ax, it'll be so much cooler than your swords.

That's what you think, Willa. MY sword is gonna look like this:

http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/635/635911/the-elder-scrolls-iv-oblivion-20050722033704467.jpg

0

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 8 years, 11 months ago

sunlowrer sue If you paid taxes in Lawrence, then your money went all over the state. The taxes used for education go to the state, then the state divides it up according to the enrollment numbers (magic date for that is Sept.21, usually). So whereever your students were enrolled on that date, that's where the money went. If you move you're students to another district during that school year, the money does not go with them. Now there are ways that local school districts can raise more money locally, but it is very limited. This was an attempt to make funding more equal, since some areas have a richer tax base than others. Unfortunately it's not perfect, but it does help some poorer districts.

0

neopolss 8 years, 11 months ago

Exactly the point I was making badger. I meant to clear up my previous response. I don't chalk up the voucher program to conspiracy, but I would like to know the demographic and monetary makeup of its supporters, as it would certainly say a lot. I see it as a quick fix solution at best, and we'll be forcing this issue onto our children to figure out when they begin enrolling their kids.

0

ms_canada 8 years, 11 months ago

sunny sue - admittedly, some of Kate Bush's music is a bit far from the norm, but she grows on you. But I find that with a lot of music, the first time you hear a song, it might not hit the right spot, but if you persist, it becomes familiar and gets under your skin. I listen to a lot of music and different kinds of music. I LOVE celtic and African. There are some wonderful African artists putting out some very interesting music these days. Any one know the Tuku music of Oliver Mtukudzi? Really grabs you, his music does. (The M is silent) I love it. I would really like to know if anyone knows this fab artist.

0

ms_canada 8 years, 11 months ago

OMB - what a beaut that saber is.

0

ms_canada 8 years, 11 months ago

jonas - surely heads will fly!

0

beatrice 8 years, 11 months ago

ms_c: I'll have to look into Oliver Mtukudzi and get back to you. For African music, I am a big fan of Ali Farka Toure. Ever heard of him? He is a blues guitarist out of Timbuktu. He did an album not too long ago with Ry Cooder (of Buena Vista Social Club fame). Such great stuff. Toure's music was also featured in the Diane Lane movie Unfaithful.

bob x 2: Can't say I own any distinguised swords or battle axes -- does that make me anti-blacksmith? I hope not.

0

sunflower_sue 8 years, 11 months ago

Ms_C, You never cease to amaze me with your eclectic tastes. And you and Beatrice are right. It is difficult to appreciate music when you only get to hear 10 seconds of it!

Dorothy, Do you know about the district school taxes for sure? I knew that schools got a per child allowance but was under the impression that some tax $ went to the district you live in, regardless of where your child attends. Wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong. (Won't be the last.)

0

jonas 8 years, 11 months ago

Oh man, did my comment get pulled, or did I not post it right? I spent a lot of time on that response!

0

jonas 8 years, 11 months ago

O-Bob: The "designer" version, with the blood pre-shed, is slightly more expensive because the demand is greater.

Me, I prefer to buy the less expensive model and shed the blood myself. Don't worry, though. . . they'll deserve it.

0

sunflower_sue 8 years, 11 months ago

Jonas and OMB, Nice swords! Hee Hee:)

I have a Japanese short sword of some kind hanging on my wall. (It was given to my Father-in-law as a gift when he was in the Navy.) It has an old Japanese flag tied around the scabbard. I wonder if it saw any action???...never thought of that before now.

0

bearded_gnome 8 years, 11 months ago

I think AVHJ... had waayy too much coffee this day!

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

sunny_sue--But, if you live in Tongie district like you said, then by that reasoning (and I don't know if it's true, either), all of your tax $ will go to Tongie.

I really don't know how that internal stuff works. I'm a policy nerd, not a finances nerd.

0

Larry 8 years, 11 months ago

Badger:

Clearly the constitution with the help of checks and balance was intended to keep the judicial, president and/or congress from gaining too much power. ( See California Supreme Court for an example of abuse by the judicial branch). However, as James Madison, the primary author of the Constitution of the United States, once said: "We have staked the whole future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments." Notice the words Ten Commandments! We don't do that anymore, do we? Every moral law that we have (murder, theft, etc) comes from the Bible, yet we have groups that want to make mentioning the Bible illegal.

And yes - most conservatives do define compromise differently than liberals. The liberal definition is actually more closely related to collaboration than compromise." I get what I want and you get what you want-- only you really don't get what you want and we change the laws of this country to more accurate reflect chaos due to the absence of values."

Gotta go and probalby won't be back on. Have a nice day everyone.

0

sunflower_sue 8 years, 11 months ago

avh..., but we used to live a mile away and in the Lawrence district. Kids still went to Tongie. Where did my $ go then? I really am not sure.

0

bearded_gnome 8 years, 11 months ago

SWEATPEA, from earlier, that underaged sex survey was attempted in Palmdale Calif, at least this once it was not statewide craziness. tried to post this earlier, 10;45 and my computer ate my post...Bad Computer!

0

Grundoon Luna 8 years, 11 months ago

Larry,

The founding fathers determined and decreed in our constitution the freedom of religion. That means ANY religion. Thomas Jefferson said, "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there is no god or that there are twenty gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my legs." If what you believe is true, which it is certaily not, that would imply that they had no exposure to any other religions and would have said Americans were free to practice any Christian religion they like. but they didn't say that, and it was not an error of ommission, contrary to what you would like us all to believe. They knew the Jews were brought to New Amsterdam to set up the economic system, the Crusades were well known to them, Most of them probably read Shakespear, and enjoyed many things brought from the Far East compliments of Marco Polo's exploits (they probably gave posthumous thank to him since he did so 500 years before their time). To say that this country was intended to be a Christian country is complete nonsense. But I would expect that from you.

Ms. C! I LOVE KATE BUSH!! Wuthering Heights is my favorite too!!

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

Me neither, s_s. I know that the count is done at the beginning of the year. That's about where it ends for my ability to clear anything up.

0

bearded_gnome 8 years, 11 months ago

125 here...amazing.

though I am a constantly evolving being, my views about evolution, etc., haven't changed from yesterday.

0

bearded_gnome 8 years, 11 months ago

So, OMB, do you take that wonderful sword for any real activities...i.e. re-enactors' events? cool sword.

0

jonas 8 years, 11 months ago

Okay, on the chance that my post was pulled and I didn't just duff it myself, I'll write a slightly less incendiary version.

First, Larry: Don't be absurd. "We are now at no religion anywhere, anytime"?! On my 8 minute, 4 mile drive to work, I pass three churches, at least one of which has a giant sign advertising the benefits of a Christian lifestyle. Religion is doing quite well, still.

Second, and if this has been covered and written somewhere I am unaware of, I would like to know: I would like to hear about. . . intelligent design. You see, when, as far as I can see, you ask an ID proponent to explain their theory, what they actually talk about is. . . evolution. I'm sorry, but I didn't ask about evolution, I asked about intelligent design. A few of the questions I have, that I would like answered, are:

What is the proposed method of testing it's hypothesis? Is there any evidence, at any form or level of life, of organic life being created, per se, out of thin air?
For that matter, what is the physical application of creation in ID? How, so to speak, does it happen? What would the curriculum be, in the event of the theory's full acceptance into the scientific arena?
What does this theory hope to accomplish? To explain, I feel that the theory of evolution has some practical application to life. If we can understand the changes, and how they happen, we can manipulate them in ways that are favorable for our existence. Which, to me, is the crux of scientific discipline: to make physical reality more convenient for our species, specifically by understanding the way it functions more clearly. How, then, would ID be useful under that context, and how would the scientific method be practically applied to it in order to increase our understanding of things?

Again, if someone has written on this subject, I would be interested in a recomendation(sp?).

0

sunflower_sue 8 years, 11 months ago

OMB, I called my FIL about the sword. I had a few details wrong. This is the revised story:

It is a Japanese bayonette that was given to my FIL's sister (from her boyfriend) after his return from WWII. As for "war trophy", your guess is as good as mine. Seems like, under the circumstances, that it very well could be.

African music: Oliver Mtukudzi...loved him! Ali Farka Toure...wasn't overly impressed (based on a 30 second sample) S.E. Rogie...loved him!

0

bearded_gnome 8 years, 11 months ago

OMB...the underware [sp...] and the sword...more than I wanted to know...also use the sword in your leathers?

or, in tights?

yeehaa!

yesterday, I learned that a california legislator is offering legislation to "decriminalize the baring of breasts in public."

this is great. need this law in Lawrence, at least it wouldn't be another ban.
bye for a while...try not to injure each other, and: AVHJ...: put down the caffeine and walk away...

0

beatrice 8 years, 11 months ago

Hey there az_at, have you heard the new Kate Bush cd yet? You gotta check it out.

bearded: I think if it weren't for Walt the blacksmith, we probably would have petered out around 60 posts today. Long live the blacksmith! (I'm still laughing at yesterday's "bearded isn't a verb" - loved it!)

sun_sue, I think you are onto something. Perhaps the boys are talking a bit too much about their swords. Perhaps they are talking too much about nothing more than mere pocket knives ; ) ; ) nod nod. (Just kidding guys. I'm sure they are magnificent sabers worthy of King Arthur himself.)

0

avhjmlk 8 years, 11 months ago

I'm walking away, I'm walking away, (i'm walking away....)

0

ms_canada 8 years, 11 months ago

beatrice - ROFLMDO (I use the french translation of A) please don't desert us when you move to Phoenix.

0

oldfashiongirl 8 years, 11 months ago

Walt, you remind me of my father, who was a blacksmith during the Depression. I remember many horses being at my dad's shop, waiting to be shoed, and daddy forging the shoes to fit and then putting them in a bucket to be cooled. The steam arose and filled the little building. He made pokers, wrought iron, hasps, etc. Oh, the joys of childhood. Dad was a wonderful sweet person and everyone loved him. He could do anything despite the fact he only had a 6th grade education. He died about 15 years ago and I miss him so much. I already have my tombstone placed right next to his!!

With Walt making all those swords it brings to mind the Good Book saying in Isaiah 2:4 "and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shnall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." Now I am a Christian, not a theologian, and this could very well happen. Enochvile, help me out here.

If you think the school voucher system is a problem wait till Bush gets his "faith based initiative" into the works. I am on the teller's committee (we count all the money) at my church and I forsee having to hire six clerks to account to the government and being told which religious organization to send it to and how much. Let's keep church and state separate!!

0

Grundoon Luna 8 years, 11 months ago

Hey B, I haven't heard it yet. But I will surely check it out!

0

Larry 8 years, 11 months ago

Azure Attitude, Jonas and a few others:

I never stated that others could come into this country and have the freedom to worship a sponge if they so desired. One I said was that our government was founded on Christian principles - PERIOD. If you don't believe in Christ - so be it. You won't be punished for it. As for the government - the pre meeting prayers, the writing on our money, etc. etc. etc. proves the religious intent of our forefathers.

How about some more history and quotes that sure does question your point of view. However - Jonas (as always) in the LJWorld, you're preaching to the choir. There aren't many conservatives over there like there are in the REST OF THE STATE OF KANSAS.

Was Patrick Henry a Christian? In 1776, he wrote this: "It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone, people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here."

On July 4, 1821, President Adams said, "The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: "It connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity."

Calvin Coolidge, our 30th President of the United States reaffirmed this truth when he wrote, "The foundations of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our country." In 1782, the United States Congress voted this resolution: " The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools." William Holmes McGuffey is the author of the McGuffey Reader, which was used for over 100 years in our public schools, with over 125 million copies sold, until it was stopped in 1963.

0

Larry 8 years, 11 months ago

President Lincoln called him the "Schoolmaster of the Nation." Listen to these words of Mr. McGuffey: "The Christian religion is the religion of our country. >From it are derived our nation, on the character of God, on the great moral Governor of the universe. On its doctrines are founded the peculiarities of our free Institutions. From no source has the author drawn more conspicuously than from the sacred Scriptures. For all these extracts from the Bible, I make no apology." Of the first 108 universities founded in America, 106 were distinctly Christian, including the first, Harvard University, chartered in 1636. In the original Harvard Student Handbook, rule number 1 was that students seeking entrance must know Latin and Greek so that they could study th e Scriptures: "Let every student be plainly instructed and earnestly pressed to consider well, the main end of his life and studies, is, to know God and Jesus Christ, which is eternal life, John 17:3; and therefore to lay Jesus Christ as the only foundation for our children to follow the moral principles of the Ten Commandments."

"The Bible is the Rock on which this Republic rests." --Andrew Jackson And for your proof or writings - funny you should ask for that. Give us proof that you witnessed Macro evolution. EYE WITTNESS PROOF. You know - kind of like the eye witnesses who saw Jesus Christ perform miracles. Why is it that you find it so easy to believe Darwin's THEORY (the guy never witnessed anything, he only created a theory)- yet you don't believe eye witness accounts from the Gospels. All (I might add) were written at different times by different people yet were so clearly the same?

0

ms_canada 8 years, 11 months ago

Larry - I thank you so much for you post above. You said it so well. It never ceases to amaze me also how people reject the simple truth of the gospel of Christ. BTW did you know that gospel means good news. All that Jesus taught was love. When asked which was the greatest commandment He said, "Love the Lord your God with all you soul, mind and strength and the second is like unto it. Love your neighbour as yourself" And that part I really like, you are to love your self. Why do so many people make fun of Christians who just believe a man that could teach such a simple and loving message? Big mystery to me.

0

thunderbuns 8 years, 11 months ago

Jane:

Please read Larry's recent posts. They are accurate.

And quit calling me names..........

0

sweatpeagj 8 years, 11 months ago

ms_canada..because in today's society nobody wants something as basic as simple fundamentals such as love. It seeems to me that everyone feels there has to be something more. He wasn't sent here to speak love and behind the back speak evil and profanity but many people still have a hard time with simple truth. Real caring and devotion to people for such a powerful messege to have become lost. Maybe it is because of all the "knowledge" at your fingertips today that they didn't have before gave families and communities more time to reflect on the messege and bear testimony to it. bearded gnome...I am thankful that it wasn't another reason to embarass Kansas by subjecting elementary school children to that type of question here.

0

sweatpeagj 8 years, 11 months ago

I wonder did I miss the name calling again today?? Simple truth?/ Respect the fact that we ALL have a differing view that is what makes this board interesting to express on.

0

sweatpeagj 8 years, 11 months ago

bearded gnome...when I lived in NY it was not illegal for women to walk around without their tops on. I got a lot of roadwork done in front of my house for that one. Heck, I live in key west now and let me tell you what people don't have to put on. I don't feel bad at all wearing a thong bikini here in public. Of course, i do wish that some people would ummm...think first...

0

sunflower_sue 8 years, 11 months ago

sweatpea, thong bikini's only happen in KS when someone gets a wedgie! (I wouldn't be caught dead but obviously, you have a much better bum than I do):(

0

Richard Heckler 8 years, 11 months ago

Back in the old days Kate Bush was on vinyl. Very interesting vocals...yep her voice is cool and the music is fine.

Ry Cooder has a new CD that is tremendous.

Men are not required to wear shirts why should women? Useless ordinance. However I seriously doubt things would change much if the ordinance were removed. When we born naked no one thought the body was indecent.

0

sunflower_sue 8 years, 11 months ago

As for the breasts...I fed my babes in public all the time but I was descreet. It doesn't bother me to see a breast if it's being offered to a baby, but just plain nakedness is something else. Now, I'm not a prude...had many life drawing classes and didn't think twice about having a conversation with a nude person (you just kind of forget that they aren't wearing clothes) but it was all relavent. I'd definitely notice a naked person standing on the corner of 9th & Mass.

0

Ceallach 8 years, 11 months ago

I love this board. I was unable to read during the day, by the time I finished reading this evening, I thought everyone had pretty much said everything that could be said on the topics (some several times) and then POW! I paint and trim a couple of walls, stop by to see if anyone was posting and we've gone from vouchers to thong bikinis and having a mild mannered revival to boot!

I appreciate the posters who are able to speak the truth about the basics of the Christian faith and do so graciously :) As ms_canada said the Christ was a man of peace and love. Those who take His name but not His ways have missed the whole point. IMHO

Speaking of vouchers, taxes, etc.:) Using some of the logic of today's posters, I have no children in school, I shouldn't have to pay education taxes at all. I believe the educational opportunities provided in the public schools are essential to our city, state and country's future. Other people paid the taxes that helped educate my children (in public schools). They are all bright, industrious, productive adults. Part of the problem with public schools may be parents lack of support and participation in their child(ren)'s education. Some seem to think that the teachers are totally responsible for their children's academic and social success. That has never been true and is not true today.

0

bearded_gnome 8 years, 11 months ago

Thanks Bea..."bearded" would be an adjective...I bow in your general direction.

0

bearded_gnome 8 years, 11 months ago

Great idea Nudey...but wonder how that would impact traffic flow.

a few times a year a group of protestors, all women of course, makes a point of walking on Santa Cruz (CA) streets, bare of breasts. they have been dOing this for many years. some locals have offered to take up a "shirt collection."
"free roadwork" Sweatpea...you mean you were influencing state or local employees to show you favoritism by sexual display...hmmmmm!

0

Purell 8 years, 11 months ago

...so tomorrow can be topless day on the board (equal time for both sexes). Might be a bit "nippy" though.

0

jonas 8 years, 11 months ago

Sigh. . . .

I'm just glad, Larry, that in the future you will be outnumbered.

I will agree with you, however, that the country was founded on what you refer to as Christian principles. However, Christian principles were founded on things that existed before Christ, so I'll stick, myself, with just calling them principles.

As for the rest, I don't really see the point of continuing the conversation, as the tone of it doesn't fill me with hope that you are willing to listen to any argument, whether they have merit or not.

Still, if you have something to say on why ID is a science, or an answer to my assertions on why it is not, please feel free.

0

Larry 8 years, 11 months ago

sign.....

Keep dreaming Jonas. Keep dreaming!

0

Commenting has been disabled for this item.