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Do you ever question the advice of your doctor?
Asked at Massachusetts Street on July 15, 2005
“No, because I’ve gone to him for 20 years. He’s been in the business a long time.”
“Yeah. I think sometimes they have been out of school for a long time and may be too busy to keep up on the most modern treatments.”
“No. I have all confidence in him. That’s the reason why I picked him.”
“Yes. I thought that he probably didn’t know as much as a specialist would know.”
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Comments
Adam 8 years, 9 months ago
Come on, this is Dubya's economy we're living in. Nobody I know can even afford the gas to go the hospital much less the medical bills they'll receive once they get there. Getting TWO opinions? I'm still saving up to have this compound fracture of femur fixed!
parbuddy38 8 years, 9 months ago
What???????
one_more_bob 8 years, 9 months ago
e_m, sometimes I just like to see who is paying attention.
Das_Ubermime 8 years, 9 months ago
Wow, I missed a lot today after my first post. Well, the RR closed down due to the comments spiralling out of control. I don't think there was any comment in particular, but the trolling towards the end was just horrendous (not that there was ever a time when trolling wasn't present, just that it became ever more prevalent during the last few months). The regulators on this board seem to keep some of the worst trolls (like Hoof-Hearted) under control.
Ceallach: the New World Order is a conspiracy construct which usually entails a shadow government controlls all of the power from behind the scenes. It is along the same lines as Roswell, black helicopters, multiple gunmen for JFK, etc. It has little to do with gender.
Gender stereotypes exist because of their utility. The real problem with gender stereotypes is not so much the borders and definitions of such concepts, but the inherent tendency of humans towards categorizing our surroundings. Our entire way of viewing the world is dependent upon categorizing people or things into one group or the other. While this aids in understanding the world around us, it fails to encompass the true diversity which often encompasses life.
Well, I seemed to have reached the verbose stage of the evening, so I'll go to sleep now. Have a nice weekend everyone.
extreme_makeover 8 years, 9 months ago
OMB, Now that we're on the subject,
free-range prairie squid?
LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
extreme_makeover 8 years, 9 months ago
R,
Thanks for that. Now I don't feel alone any more!
Redneckgal 8 years, 9 months ago
Oh e_m how right you are. Being the baby of the family it seems like I'm always thinking of the safety things so one time I decided to buy her a smoke detector. All went well until the batteries went low on the thing. She called me up and told me that she thought a bird had gotten stuck in her attic. I go over there with my son and a ladder had my son half up the ladder and I heard the strange "chirping" that she had been hearing well it was the low battery signal in the smoke detector. We all had a good laugh over that one mom included! Next dumb thing I did was buy her an answering machine. That was fine until the power went off and she lost the greeting message that I had recorded for her. She called me up a little alarmed because my aunt had called and there was a strange man on her damn answering machine! She just new the whole neighborhood was going to be talking because she had a strange man on her answering machine. (Mom's been a widow for over 20 years) Yes modern day products are a little bit of a challange at times but I keep trying! I think the next thing will be a cell phone. I'd really feel better if she had one. I think.
extreme_makeover 8 years, 9 months ago
BTW: ms_c
Kerfuffle?
Redneckgal 8 years, 9 months ago
Good night Mary Ellen. God I loved that show!
extreme_makeover 8 years, 9 months ago
Hey R,
A safety I can understand. An on-off switch I can understand. Bet your mom has a bit of a challenge with modern day electronics though.
beatrice 8 years, 9 months ago
Too bad I got busy and couldn't respond to the gender issue, because it is a good one. While I'm new to this post, but not Lawrence, all I know is if you take a stand for the fireworks and smoking bans, both the women AND the men come at ya with both barrels. Oh sure, I'm a sarcastic twit, but I never resort to direct name-calling. Not even when I refer to President Bush. That never stops others around here, however. Far from it.
So if you are calling others names, don't be surprised if others don't show you respect in return.
That said, this "angry" "stupid" "moronic" "idiotic" "liberal" "city-slicker" with her "panties in a wad" will be off to enjoy my "friggin life" this weekend. So play nice now.
Good night John Boy.
one_more_bob 8 years, 9 months ago
Re: strong women. My aunt Edith was the second woman ever hired by the Arkasas Forestry Commission to staff one of the fire watch towers. She held the same job for 40 years, 1944 to 1984.
one_more_bob 8 years, 9 months ago
Ceallach, when the last book came out 2 years ago, I put on my wizarding rig & went down to Borders with some friends. It was vastly amusing to see all the little Harry's & Herminoes(SP?) rocketing around. At one point, I was standing in the history section & had pulled a book off the shelf to see if it was anything I wanted. I got that "somebody is looking at me" feeling & turned around to see three little girls giving me the once-over. Their ringleader looked me square in the eye & said "are you a real wizard?" I smiled & said, "yes, I am". Then she said, "we thought you were." Absolutely made my day.
Redneckgal 8 years, 9 months ago
Speaking of strong women let tell you about my mom. She is 79 years young still mows a 4 acre yard by herself. Keeps a huge vegtable garden as well as beautiful flower beds. Still keeps a few cattle around and chickens. A few years ago a prisoner escaped from our county jail and the last time they seen him he was headed in the genaral directions of mom's. I really wanted her to come and stay with us till they caught him but mom wouldn't here none of it. She likes her home and thats that. She let me know she could take care of herself and then she led me into her room and showed me about the biggest damn pistol I've ever seen! I said HOLY S**T I guess you can take care of yourself! Thats my mom for you. Lots of people have told me that she's a "character" and I used to kind of take offence to that when I was younger but now that I'm older it just makes me damn proud! I hope I can be as fisty as here when I'm that age.
Ceallach 8 years, 9 months ago
Good for you ms_canada. That makes the point that many things in our everyday life are not gender specific. Since I am on the mend I will be able to get back to my projects soon. But I do not think it is wise to finish repainting my cabinets while still on pain meds ;-) Probably have to do the whole job over again!
omb: Lawrence is hopping with various Harry Potter release shindigs. What does one do at a release bash?
Liberty: I am not not very familiar with the details of the New World Order. Does it stand for something other than equality of the sexes? I believe we were all created equal. To me, equality does not mean total sameness. It means each person is of equal value. There are many differences between men and women, as you said, we complement one another. But when it comes to moving the refrigerator, I say viva la difference and let the boy muscles do what boy muscles do best:) I have seen women at work go to great extremes to prove they are as strong as the men, well I am not. But my testimony should be given equal weight in legal circumstances, and if I am qualified for a job I should be given the opportunity to prove my ability to fill the position. And -- if given the position I should be paid the same wage they would have paid a man.
You are right, in any battle of the sexes, both sides will lose. We work best together, not against one another.
Liberty 8 years, 9 months ago
I think that both genders are necessary. One needs the other just as much when it gets down to where you live. We should recognize that we are different but complementary. We should work together and not try to exploit differences as an advantage over the other, so as to stir up a fight amongst ourselves and oppose ourselves.
The New World Order is the enemy and what it stands for as it threatens all of us no matter what gender you are. We all should stand together to oppose those things that really matter and avoid divisions amongst ourselves.
one_more_bob 8 years, 9 months ago
linux_chick, give us a review of the flick when you get the chance. I'm going to a release bash for the new Harry Potter book tonight.
ms_canada 8 years, 9 months ago
this female/male thing is interesting. As a female, I bought an old dilapitated cottage. Carted out 4 truck loads of old doors, carpets, junk furniture and then renovated it all by myself. And I was not a young chick. I put in new pine flooring, hung three new doors, even morticed for the hinges, added chair rails around all the rooms, put up new wallpaper, painted, put in a lovely new shower stall and set up a new stove. How's that for masculine work done by a female of 55+ years. And I also do very fine embroidery work, knit irish fisherman sweaters and paint pictures. Gender really does not have bounds. :o)
linux_chick 8 years, 9 months ago
It may be somewhat distasteful to drop a bomb like that and then leave, but I'm going to go now and get tickets for Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.
Hopefully, no one feels chased away, as some posters have suggested... it's all friendly debate, whether our ideas are in agreement or not.
Happy Friday everyone!
tell_it_like_it_is 8 years, 9 months ago
They already do OTTR. Its this one and if your a little different from them you're not welcome.
Ceallach 8 years, 9 months ago
et tu OTTR?
linux_chick 8 years, 9 months ago
Enoch makes a good point: With the examples I've been using, it's at best an irritation to have to prove myself knowledgeable at work before feeling respected. However, I can think of a few cases where an inferior stereotype of women can be harmful.
A big one is the issue of court reform in cases of rape. It's generally common knowledge that rape is under-reported/prosecuted and in cases of prosecution, offenders often spend almost no time behind bars, while the victims experience public humiliation that discourages future victims from pursuing prosecution in the first place. Given the generally accepted high frequency of rape, it seems apparent that something must be done about this problem.
Unfortunately, it's an uphill battle to evoke change. I believe this inferior stereotype of women may be part of the problem.
A couple links: http://www.crisiscentersyr.org/mr_smith.html http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/svfacts.htm
offtotheright 8 years, 9 months ago
You people need to join your own little chat room.
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
Well guys I need to get off of here have a great weekend everyone...
Don't worry....Be Happy !!!!! : ) : )
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
Ceallach -- thanks for picking up the burt reynolds line yesterday. I wasn't old enough when those came out to remember them so couldn't agree or disagree as to which mag he was in
tell_it_like_it_is 8 years, 9 months ago
Well so be it then. I'll not bother to point it agian. End of subject. Let others find out for themselves.
Ceallach 8 years, 9 months ago
Maybe it's the civility of your posts:) I find them refreshing and informative. Feel free to continue.
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
have a good one enoch :)
enochville 8 years, 9 months ago
One thing I have noticed that seems to be a trend at least with college students. Women love to male bash in their conversations and songs (think of Shania Twain and Alanis Morissette). But, I have never heard guys gather and bash women. Maybe it is the company I keep. But, guys are put down for being inside their box too. I have to go for a while; catch you later. Bye, all.
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
likewise enoch and linux as always I think we ran all the other posters away tho
enochville 8 years, 9 months ago
Does anyone know what happened to Raven? She was very kind and reasonable. I have enjoyed talking with both of you today as well, linux and happyone.
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
but like Linux I feel sometimes that I am not taken seriously
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
this is very true enoch a few encouraging words really do go along way. I have an easy time not being too judgemental since I am "Outside the Box" in most things that I enjoy.
enochville 8 years, 9 months ago
The last sentence of first paragraph should say: "But, I also believe that there are...."
enochville 8 years, 9 months ago
Linux: I guess you are saying women are looked down upon whether they conform to their stereotype or not. I suppose that is the case sometimes. I sometimes find it hard to imagine men or women not valuing a woman who is kind, caring, considerate, nurturing, self-sacrificing, empathic, etc, which are all part of the female stereotype. I suppose I find it hard to imagine because I value them so. I think people often act immaturely by putting down others when they don't feel good about themselves. But, I also people that there are an awlful lot of good people out there who can tolerate their stereotypes and expectations being violated and are receptive and appreciative of differences.
happyone: I think the key lies in first being comfortable with ourselves. When we are tolerant and understanding with the ways we don't conform, we can be more patient with the way others don't. Also, when we feel good about ourselves we don't have a need to put others down and are available to give of ourselves to lift others. This spreads to others as we help them feel good about themselves and show a good example. And perhaps we need to speak up from time to time in defense of those who are being treated disrespectfully.
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
linux I would have to say that sums it up pretty good
linux_chick 8 years, 9 months ago
All good points.
I don't think acting "outside-of-the-box" would be so bad if I didn't feel that there was a value judgement placed on the box itself. (ie - women are seen as less intelligent, opinions less valued than a man)
So, a male is going to catch flack, maybe even a lot, for becoming a nurse, for example. But even if a woman embraces her box, she's not seen as just "different" from her male counterpart, but seen as inferior.
Conversely, if she breaks "out-of-the-box," she's overly aggressive.
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
Another example would be a 6ft 250lb man smelling a flower
these are situations that will always get a second or even third glance
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
Ceallach -- let him have it!! enoch -- I agree totally, so how do we become more accepting when "outside the box" Example: you see a woman 5ft tall maybe 130 lbs and she is going for blood watching wrestling and or football
enochville 8 years, 9 months ago
I think both genders are expected to conform to what are concerned typical "male" or "female" traits. It doesn't matter if the traits are valued or not, if you don't conform, you are not a good person. Males are expected to not be in touch with their emotions, not empathic, uninterested in children, logical, assertive, arrogant, strong, interested in sports, successful, rich, protective, etc.
If either gender tries to give an opinion about an issue that supposedly "belongs" to the other gender, their opinion is often dismissed. Both genders have professions they supposedly don't belong in. For men it's nursing, elementary education, sewing and quilting, being a stay at home dad, secretarial work, child care, etc.
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
Very true linux
And visa versa if a woman likes "male things" such as WWE Wrestling or Football they are thought to be too aggresive
Ceallach 8 years, 9 months ago
Oh, boo hoo, tell_it_like_it_is! You are entitled to you opinion and so am I. And all that whining is just that, your opinion. Thanks for coming out and finally "telling it like it is!" It seems more than a little hypocritical for you to beat around the bush for 2 days with all those cryptic little posts (snitch, trouble maker, wah wah wah) -- all the while using the name tell-it-like-it-is! Hmmm, a hypocrite is a person who says one thing and does another, right? Don't be so fast to label others.
While posters, who are sincerely trying to follow a subject, may object to others getting off subject, the problems that cause ljw to either delete a post or delete a forum are not being off topic, but are in fact, what is said and how it is said. If the posts stay on subject but are rude, cruel, obscene or explicitly sexual, chances are very good they will get this forum shut down.
Yes, ms_canada and I have talked off subject on more than one occasion, but for a long time now we have communicated off forum so that we did not interfere with the topic of the day.
I am truly sorry that you seem to find me so offensive. Such personal rancor squealches any hope for positive dialogue and I find that sad.
linux_chick 8 years, 9 months ago
happy, don't you think, though, that feminine-stigmatized behaviors or cultural ideas are seen as inferior whether men hold them or women?
Example: sports are seen as part of "American Culture," while shopping and fashion fancies are seen as simple-minded pursuits.
What I mean is, it may be seen as socially difficult for a man to enjoy shopping, but I think women are seen as less intelligent for it as well.
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
linux... I am female. but a lot of men are stereotyped that they only think of sex and/or things related to it..also that they can't read typically female magazines with out getting grief (Mr_Joe and Cosmo for example) can't be soft natured or are presumed gay just to name a few
linux_chick 8 years, 9 months ago
Enoch, well put. I've posted on other LJW articles where if I voice in disagreement, I get called a whore. So, I signed up for another account under a male pseudo-id, and got the time of day at least. Food for thought... I wasn't conducting a scientific survey.
How else are men stereotyped? I am interested to know. These stereotypes are backward thinking and I want to do my part in breaking them down. We can't fix what we aren't aware of.
enochville 8 years, 9 months ago
I personally would like more conservative judges, even though I did not want Bush to win.
enochville 8 years, 9 months ago
linux_chick: Those comments I gave about gender were only about this message board. No doubt gender discrimination exists in the real world. It goes both ways. Men on this board have confessed before that they are often concerned about what others think about them when they show any interest in children. Just one example among many. I am sorry that you are not taken seriously in IT. I am sure that it is real and not imagined. But, this battle with gender stereotyping is not just a woman's issue, but a man's as well.
linux_chick 8 years, 9 months ago
One more link for one_more_bob :) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d5/Netscape_7.2.jpg
I think Netscape is a great browser, but for what its worth, I think they have a ways to go on aesthetics. Firefox is prettier. That probably shouldn't matter as much as it does to me, but if I have to stare at the thing all day...
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
1 Justice Rehnquist is just too old and stubborn to realize he needs to step down. Personally I hope he waits three more years and O'Connor comes back, there has been rumors, so GW doesn't get to appoint anyone. Just my opinion there.
2 The web browser.. I am some what illiterate on that one I use slimbrowser, but don't know too much about that kind of stuff the ol' man takes care of that for me. I just use it. :)
3 Gender Issue well I think that for the most part its not to bad but it does seem that occasionally one person will get a lot dumped on them because of misunderstanding and or childish bullying because the others don't agree.
Just my opinions guys don't get mad :)
linux_chick 8 years, 9 months ago
Enoch, I wish I felt as you do on gender.
I very well could have a chip on my shoulder. I find it's difficult to be a woman in IT, feeling as if people think I'm joking at work when I come in to help them w/ their computers, and constantly having to prove myself before I feel I have respect. Maybe it's in my head.
linux_chick 8 years, 9 months ago
OMB, you're not. Netscape "died" because of marketing practices, not the quality of the browser.
Firefox was developed on the Netscape framework. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla
Redneckgal 8 years, 9 months ago
Geez sorry I ask :) its TGIF just be happy folks!
one_more_bob 8 years, 9 months ago
Re: browsers. I may be the last person on earth using Netscape. It does pretty well for me.
tell_it_like_it_is 8 years, 9 months ago
Redneckgal..read back through the posts and see where we went off subject. I'm not trying to be a butthead but it all started with the 2 or 3 who are always complaining about us being negative/off subject. I just can't stand a hypocrite.
Centrist 8 years, 9 months ago
My doctor is great because she works FOR ME. Highly unusual, I know, but she actually LISTENS ...
enochville 8 years, 9 months ago
In regards to Foxfire, I use it, but am unfamiliar with the new security issues. I can't imagine they are worse than IE though.
In regards to the gender issue, I don't feel that I think or respond differently to the content a user's post based on their gender. I am open to the possibility that I am blind to it. As far as the behavior of others go, most are respectful. For the few that are not, they tend to be equally disrespectful with respect to the genders as far as I can tell. I think there might be differences in sensitivities between the genders. I qualify that by saying I think the differences within genders is greater than the differences between genders.
linux_chick 8 years, 9 months ago
Redneck, we're not off topic. Talk about whatever you want. This board needs it, I think we're in a lull.
linux_chick 8 years, 9 months ago
For heavens sake, the man is 80... no one would blame him if he stepped down.
Though I think most of the country is hoping he'll hold on for 3 yrs ;)
Redneckgal 8 years, 9 months ago
Wow! How did we get so far off subject? I thought this one might run on for the day.
enochville 8 years, 9 months ago
I think Justice Rehnquist will retire at some point before Bush leaves office. I think Rehnquist just likes the power and influence he has and doesn't want to give it up. He probably thinks he's strong enough to do his job. Perhaps a little bravado or denial of health problems or both.
tell_it_like_it_is 8 years, 9 months ago
Actually I was refering to ms. canada and ceallach as the labeler not the troublemaker.
linux_chick 8 years, 9 months ago
Thanx, happy...Take your pic. I'm interested in your thoughts on all 3.
That goes for everyone.
enochville 8 years, 9 months ago
There have been a few males posting today, but not too many. I wonder if all the childbirth conversations caused them not to post today.
linux_chick 8 years, 9 months ago
Well, I'm curious about a few things...
People's thoughts on Justice Rehnquist's denial of retirement given that he's arguably the most Right Conservative on the bench and has the opportunity to give Bush dual appts... maybe Bush is too conservative for the Conservative Right??
Our take on the web-browser wars given Firefox's recent release of v. 1.0.5 and newfounded security issues w/ Spread-Firefox...
Possibly gender issues even with this board. Ladies, do you feel your comments are taken as seriously as a man's? Does the board tend to digress into sexual discussions if you post with an overtly female id?
enochville 8 years, 9 months ago
Fangorn suggested the question on the board of favorite ice cream and then the next day, it was the "On the Street" question.
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
linux just put your ? out there and we'll discuss it today
linux_chick 8 years, 9 months ago
I was just wondering if LJW was open to suggestion, maybe they had a contact person or something? I saw the feedback button, but noticed we had a string of questions about the homeless that dragged on for several days.
Just interested in discussing something new. :)
one_more_bob 8 years, 9 months ago
They want to start selling free-range prairie squid at the Merc & need an import license for the World Trade Fed.....
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
Thanks for the confidence Ceallach
The_Original_Bob 8 years, 9 months ago
linux - The Feedback link might do it and I also imagine just posting it here would work. We know LJW reads this stuff.
Ceallach 8 years, 9 months ago
I'm confused. What does the World Trade Federation have to do with Lawrence :)
one_more_bob 8 years, 9 months ago
To echo someone else, the "on the street" question for tomorrow should be "WTF?"
linux_chick 8 years, 9 months ago
Thanx.
Ceallach 8 years, 9 months ago
linux_chick: the Feedback link is probably your best bet.
linux_chick 8 years, 9 months ago
Does anyone know if there is a way to suggest on the street questions to the LJW?
Ceallach 8 years, 9 months ago
happyone, if they do mean you -- they are wrong!
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
ms_c the cake was wonderful thanks again for the recipe!! :)
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
Well put Ceallach ......I hope they weren't meaning me :)
Ceallach 8 years, 9 months ago
e_m, I don't care to repost any of them -- it was hard enough to read them it the first time, I don't care to relive it. (Not unlike the teenage years - glad I survived them, glad I don't have to do them again.)
I don't know who the alleged trouble makers are, the comment was very vague -- I just know they could not have meant me 0:-)
extreme_makeover 8 years, 9 months ago
Moderator:
ms_canada is DEFINITELY a troublemaker.
;)
ms_canada 8 years, 9 months ago
tell it like it is - I sure hope I was not included in your list of trouble makers. Just for the record, I have only hit the removal button once and that was for one of my own posts and you know what, they did not remove it. Trouble making = hmm. I was only trying to point out that if we got too much loose talk and dare I say-sexy talk - we might get bumped and I sure don't want to see that happen. I was not trying to cause trouble, I was trying to prevent it. I do enjoy this board.
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
I'm not taking...... I like the friendly banter we have here
extreme_makeover 8 years, 9 months ago
I'm not posting the comment which really sent RR over the top.
Any takers out there?
tell_it_like_it_is 8 years, 9 months ago
Seems like to me our board was going along well today but I can see that it is likely that it is about to get stirred up again. And this time I don't think you can blame it on the few that some among us like to label as troublemakers.
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
Why can't people give honest opinions and thought provocing (sp?) insight without being unintelligent
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
perhaps that is the case or seems to be anyway. Oh and by the way ms_c don't listen to the ones that say your input is not welcome, I really like hearing your point of view.
extreme_makeover 8 years, 9 months ago
Here is one from the archive I think you'll enjoy. Things haven't changed all that much, have they? ;)
[KsTwister] "I am even more aware of this city not fixing problems. They know one thing only: BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN BAN"
ms_canada 8 years, 9 months ago
extreme fellow - do you remember exactly what was going on there to make LJW remove it?
ms_canada 8 years, 9 months ago
happyone, no I did not post there but I do remember the kerfuffle when it was closed down. Maybe fangorn knows what was going on. I presumed that it got very rowdy, uncivil. Not like our board, eh? :o)
Liberty 8 years, 9 months ago
Thanks extreme_makeover.
ms_canada 8 years, 9 months ago
Has anyone noticed that there is a comment section at the bottom of the related LJW article for each days question? If you did not read to the end of the article you would have missed it. Merrill, you quite often post a comment there, I have noticed. It usually does not have too many comments, not like On The Street.
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
thanks e_m I take it you Cellach ms_c and fangorn were all posters there?
extreme_makeover 8 years, 9 months ago
Sorry (typo). Make that 02/02/05.
Just when it was starting to get really fun ;)
extreme_makeover 8 years, 9 months ago
This was posted by the LJW on 02/05/05:
Reader Reaction is closed temporarily
Reader Reaction was started as a place for meaningful community dialogue. Over time, it has evolved into something much less.
We have tried to spend more time monitoring this message board, and we've tried to implement stronger rules, but nothing seems to have worked.
Until further notice, we are shutting down the Reader Reaction message boards.
Our plan is to have new board software, as well as a much-better moderation policy and strategy in place within the next few months, if not sooner.
To submit any feedback on this decision, please click here.
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
I gather that Reader Reaction was an old post board that got cancelled. Those that know please inform us. and what happened
Liberty 8 years, 9 months ago
What happened on Reader Reaction? Is that where you can respond to an article?
offtotheright 8 years, 9 months ago
ACG, think of your stomach muscles, and how well they will be able to bounce back after a C-Section. I've known a few that there was no muscle after the surgery.
i_tching 8 years, 9 months ago
Almost daily. That is one of my job's requirements.
Bud Fuller 8 years, 9 months ago
The smart thing to do is question your doctor, but do it in a civil manner. They are only people and make mistakes just as any profession. There are always options and it's okay to ask what they are or ask to get a second opinion. A good doctor will not be upset when asking these questions, a poor doctor will not like being question and that is a sign to find another doctor
Ceallach 8 years, 9 months ago
Children's Mercy is truly a great place to take children. KU Medical Center also has some good docs in pediatric medicine areas. My granddaughter has been to both hospitals, for different conditions, and received terrific care in each instances.
enochville 8 years, 9 months ago
If any of you have a child that needs major medical help, I would suggest Children's Mercy over the other hospitals in the area.
Ceallach 8 years, 9 months ago
Carmenilla, it was directed to you. At least I got the primary person right, sorry to have switched children around between you and IP :)
Many of us who were previous Reader Reaction posters have the same concern.
Carmenilla 8 years, 9 months ago
Same thing happened with my daughter, s_s!!! They wanted us to buy a nebulizer and use an inhaler. It was a bunch of crap and my kid has shown NO signs of "asthma" again.
rhd99 8 years, 9 months ago
I never would question the advice of my doctor because if I did he/she would have evidence to back up their diagnosis as to whether or not I would ever need surgery or follow-ups. Now, on the other hand, I would trust my doctor LOTS more than an insurance company. Don't get me wrong, the local insurance offices here in the county I am sure have competent individuals. Their national offices, however, have execs. who spend more time on a golf course than they do in the office making certain that procedures are followed CORRECTLY when deciding whether or not to help patients who are told when they need surgery. Insurance company BUREAUCRATS who overrule doctors know NOTHING about medicine. If they claim to do so, I want to see their credentials.
sunflower_sue 8 years, 9 months ago
I think you'd be a fool not to. I had a Dr. diagnose my daughter (who had chronic bronchitis at the time) with asthma. I knew he was wrong and the only reason we were there in the first place was because the school nurse insisted I take her. After 2 weeks she was miraculously cured of her "asthma" and has never had it since. "Quack, quack!"
Dr's are human. Humans err.
That being said, on the larger issues, trust your doctor unless you have a GOOD reason not to. MOST are quite capable! Find a Dr. you like and stick with them.
Carmenilla 8 years, 9 months ago
And acg, good luck! Pregnancy does not have to be treated like an operation. Look into finding a Doula. She will be your birth support captain! I know lots of women who have gone all natural, no doctor, no drugs, only midwives and doulas. They said it was a wonderful crazy experience but totally worth it in the end. I had mine naturally with no drugs at LMH. It wasn't the easiest thing in the world ;-) but I wouldn't change it for anything!
Carmenilla 8 years, 9 months ago
I hardly ever go to the doctor. My family probably goes for physicals and "check-ups" once a year. I have questioned him in the past because he tries to skate thru with a 5 minute visit. That ain't gonna cut it!I tried to keep my kid off antibiotics as much as possible in the first 5 years of her life so she would get some immunity on her own.
But we're lucky, we never seem to get sick (knock on wood). Granted I'm a nazi when it comes to hand-washing and good nutrition. We eat A LOT of garlic and I really truly believe in its healing properties. It cleans the blood and keeps your liver happy. I swear it wards off colds (and vampires) and winter bugs.
I am all about prevention. Western medicine is only designed to help you once the symptoms occur and often the medicine "masks" the problem (unless its an antibiotic). Ironically, I'm in nursing school. The more I learn about health and our bodies the more I become convinced that we can do more for ourselves than any doctor.
Also, Ceallach, I got your e-mail message. Were you writing to me or IP? You mentioned "my boys" and I only have one daughter. I know IP has 2 sons. Whatever the case I appreciate your concern (if it was directed at me). I do get fed up somedays when I read the callousness of some of the remarks by other posters. I try not to let my temper get the best of me. I've been using humor to alleviate the frustration I feel at times but obviously my humor gets too racy for some. Personally I would rather talk about sex than bash others for being "different". I love this board and would hate to see it go. But I DON'T want it to turn into Reader Reaction. That ended badly, to say the least.
beatrice 8 years, 9 months ago
acg: Congrats!!! I hope all goes well and I wish you and yours the best of health throughout. Advice: If you decide to go the drugged route, be sure to wait until you are clear-headed before you name the kid. Otherwise, you are liable to give your child a name like Apple or Banjo. In fact, I think we should have a "Name acg's Baby" contest. And which ever name we all decide on, you have to agree to it, okay acg?
Oh yeah, yes - trust your doctor, but also ask questions.
tell_it_like_it_is 8 years, 9 months ago
We have 3 rug rats. My wife claims its not the having them thats hard. Its the raising them!
Ceallach 8 years, 9 months ago
I have a great doctor, she has been very successful in getting my migraines under control in a relatively short period of time, considering all the years other doctors "treated" them by knocking me out with drugs for several days at a time. I do not question her in an aggressive, "are you sure you know what you are doing" sort of way. We talk about what is wrong then discuss treatment options. I also use WebMD, and I always check out any pharmaceuticals I am given by looking them up on Mayo Clinic's website. (I seem to be a poster child for drug "side effects." )
acg: The horror stories you have heard from other women are not new. Women have been "out suffering" each other as long as I can remember. However, if it was really that bad -- no one would have more than one :) I had three, the last being accompanied by surgery -- earlier posters were right -- the delivery pain you save by having surgery is much less than trying to take care of a newborn and your tummy at the same time. Hopefully you have a good support system that will provide you with assistance either way. When you hold your baby, how it got here will no longer seem important.
papa_smurf 8 years, 9 months ago
Normally yes, If I had cancer and he recomended medical Marijuana, I would take his expert advice as a doctor over the federal governments irrational outdated propaganda based on lies and bad science from the 1930's.
one_more_bob 8 years, 9 months ago
Doctors are like everybody else. Nobody is right all the time. I got an email from a pharmacist at work looking for a usage report on 6 drugs. She misspelled the names of three of them.
Das_Ubermime 8 years, 9 months ago
Did the tiger beetle dentist go off to be a full-time entomologist? I had wondered about him. His collections of tiger beetles were spectacular.
italianprincess 8 years, 9 months ago
Nah.........try it natural first. Yes, there will be pain, but its so worth it when the baby is born.
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
Go for the epidural !!!
acg 8 years, 9 months ago
I had a great Doc, at Lawrence OBGYN, but then she left to go to a position at KU Med and my last appt. with her was last week. It blows because now I have to use a new doc for the last 2 1/2 months of the pregnancy. :( I've lost my general practitioner (moved to Dallas) my dentist (went off to be a full time entymologist) and now my OBGYN--all in the last two years. I'm starting to think it's me. LOL. I will most likely do the natural thing for this baby but I have to admit it's scary. Women all have these awful horror stories about 12 or 18 or 24 hours of hard labor. I'm kind of a wimp. Don't know if I'm up for all that. I guess I'll soon see, won't I? Thanks for the words of encouragement though, guys. It helps, a lot!
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
acg the best thing I can tell you is to be educated about what will happen and make sure you trust the Dr and his staff and everything will be great! Once you see that beautiful baby its all worth it
hottruckinmama 8 years, 9 months ago
had my first 3 natural and then the last one c-section. it wasn't NEARLY as bad as what i thought it would be. as far as a scar they do a bikini line thing now and you can barley see it after a year. nothing to dread either way. think natural is better as far as getting around afterword maybe. its all good though long as the end result is a nice healthy baby.
christie 8 years, 9 months ago
Of course I do. Before I go to any doctor I research my complaints and discuss with the doctor what may or may not be ailing me. I discuss treatments I've discovered and discuss the prescriptions he's writing me. I want to know side effects and alternatives, and most important, do I have to take the drug or will it hurt me to just let the condition go away by itself.
Information is power. You must take a pro-active approach to medicine. The doctors usually appreciate it, and if they don't, then they probably have personal problems.
All 3 of my kids were delivered C-Section. It's the best thing all around. No ripping, no funny heads. I think all babies should be delivered C-Section. We set a date, and did it. All relatives were advised, the house was set it was perfect all around.
happyone 8 years, 9 months ago
Yes I question the Dr. they see too many patients to trust that they are focused on my care.
acg: make sure you pick a VERY GOOD ob/gyn and you'll be just fine (stay away from the women's healthcare group on wakarusa) I had an old school ob/gyn (he was excellent) and had lots of problems with both pregnancies (sp?) but wouldn't trade it for the world!! The first was 36 hrs of hard labor that ended in c-section(knock out cold for surgery) the second my body still didn't cooperate so scheduled c-section (epidural and awake) if I could change any of it I would have been awake for both!! The pain after surgery is Pretty bad so go natural if you can! :)
J Good Good 8 years, 9 months ago
Had both natural and c-section - the c-section might seem easier, but the recovery is MUCH longer and more painful. Recovering from major surgery (which it most definitely is!) while caring for a newborn is pretty rugged.
Most people bounce back pretty quickly from regular childbirth. And the pain is bearable if you don't fight it....
Staci Dark Simpson 8 years, 9 months ago
I trust my doctor, he has been accurate on everything for the 15 years I have been going to him. Some times I do feel rushed but then the next time he redeems himself by being really thorough. He is even a DO. I guess I am lucky. I have went to specialists for a 2nd opinion only to find he was right on. I agree that doing research is an excellent way to stay on top of your health. I use WebMD alot. ACG--Get the epidural, I was glad I did, it is the best thing since sliced bread!!!
offtotheright 8 years, 9 months ago
I would think if one had to question the advise of their doctor more than once, they should be shopping around for a new one.
I have had the same doctor for almost 10 years. I've never questioned the advise.
enochville 8 years, 9 months ago
Thanks, lori, for your comments.
extreme_makeover 8 years, 9 months ago
Let's see if this works.
As you can see from the linked image, the doctors have enough time left over to play tennis ;)
http://lithiumlite.com/TennisCLUB.jpg
Photo title: Affordable house week 4 (pt. 3)
Carry on.
lori 8 years, 9 months ago
It is common for a baby to be breech before the last two months of pregnancy; they have plenty of room to roll around in there. If they are breech in the 36-37th week of pregnancy, an external version may be performed (but ony if you are private pay or have private insurance; a state medical card won't pay for it. Can't understand that, as a c-section is a heck of alot more expensive than a vaginal birth, and a version doesn't cost that much). A version is done in a hospital setting with an obstetrician. It's pretty successful.
I work at the Birth and Women's Center - the one in the article -- and I would say we see about a breech near term about 3-4% of the time. We try several methods to get the baby to turn, including a version, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Most physicians won't attend a breech birth, or will only under specific circumstances. Usually a breech ends in a c-section, though. This, like the "once a section, always a section" philosophy, is due more to the hospital lawyers and insuance companies. There are still doctors who attend breech, but they are few and far between.
acg, I recommend getting a great, positive book about childbirth. The Birth Book by William and Martha Sears is a good place to start. Talk to some people who have had happy birth expriences (believe me, they are out there). Giving birth can be a wonderful, empowering experience for you. Hope that helps.
hottruckinmama 8 years, 9 months ago
acg..i was scared to death with my first one too. it'll be okay. its all worth it.
Redneckgal 8 years, 9 months ago
acg..its really not that bad. My first one took about 8 hours and the second one only about 2 hours. The third one took about 6 hours. IP is right. There is nothing to be scared of. The joy of it is all worth. Also there are a lot of other ways besides being put to sleep to ease pain now like epuderal (spelling?) thats an option that wasn't open with my first 2 older kids( at least not in our tiny hospital) and I decided not to have it with the last one (its a needle thing). But I understand from several friends who have had them they are about the best thing since sliced bread :)
enochville 8 years, 9 months ago
sorry acg, we don't mean to scare you. Ultimately, the decision is up to you and your doctor, but I would not encourage you to get an unnecessary c-section. Read up on it. Although by the sounds of it Italianprincess would be against an epidural, many women have them and they greatly reduce the discomfort. Some women try water birth or different positions to ease the pain as well. I am just saying their are lots of alternatives. But, what do I know about childbirth; I am a man.
italianprincess 8 years, 9 months ago
acg,
Theres nothing like giving birth the regular way if possible. I went through 18 hours of labor with my first, then my second was to easy. I would never want to be drugged up and have a baby, or be put to sleep either.
Don't be scared, the pain may be the worse but the joy of a baby in your arms makes up for all the pain you went through.
extreme_makeover 8 years, 9 months ago
Our obstetrician took note of our first baby being in the breach position early on. He commented that he could attempt to turn it but wasn't "looking to be a hero".
If malpractice insurance goes any higher, obstetrics may become a thing of the past.
acg 8 years, 9 months ago
Hey, guys, first time pregnant lady in the room. Ya'll are scaring the hell outta me. As if I can be any more scared than I already am of this whole birth thing. I'm actually thinking of asking for a c section. Will they do that? I just want to drift off and wake up two hours later with baby in hand.
The_Original_Bob 8 years, 9 months ago
IP - They rush you in and out because they want to see more patients to make more money.
I most certainly question my doctor. The biggest reason is what Italian Princess brought up. These docs will treat you as part of an assembly line if you don't get them to slow down and answer your questions. Part of proper healthcare is asking the doctor questions and that is a patient's responsibility. Completely irresponsible to just take their word and accept it as fact.
Liberty 8 years, 9 months ago
Correction, the last sentence should read: Not whether this will really be the best fix for your situation.
Liberty 8 years, 9 months ago
Doctors may be okay if an insurance company or corporation is not involved. Their medical conclusions can be skewed or "tailored" to match up with what the insurance company or corporation wants to pay for. For example, if you think you need surgery, (a high cost item), and you get an opinion from your doctor, he is likely to be a "conservative" doctor (because he gets paid from the insurance company or a company if you are hurt at work) and recommend a non-surgical solution that doesn't really fix the problem but saves the insurance company/corporation money. If you visit a "liberal" doctor, he will insist on surgery (as more money can be made). So the doctors have become political according to who is paying for your care and who's bread needs to be buttered. It is probably better to seek a "liberal" doctor as he is most likely to give you the better fix for your situation than a "conservative" doctor who may be being controlled by who is paying him. So the answer to the question of do you trust your doctor is; it depends on who is paying for your treatment and how much they are willing to pay. Not will this really be the best fix for your situation.
italianprincess 8 years, 9 months ago
I'm glad my boys were both born the reg way. Long labors of course and no drugs, but born into the world without any stomach cutting.
I have always wondered also why some docs at times rush you in and out. I know they are busy, but it seems like they just simply want to hurry the day away.
offtotheright 8 years, 9 months ago
C-Sections cost a whole lot more money. I hadn't realized all of the breech babies were happening. Sure seems odd to me.
enochville 8 years, 9 months ago
I have heard of doctors turning the baby out of breech during a sonogram reading a couple of months before birth when the baby is still small enough to turn. I don't know if they still do that. It would be interesting to see if there really has been an increase in breech births or if it is just an illusory correlation. I don't think doctors are lying when they say the baby is in the breech position. I do think that c-sections are done too frequently based on some criticism within the medical profession.
Redneckgal 8 years, 9 months ago
Okay I'm glad we're on the subject because here is a question I've had for a long time. Has anybody else noticed the high rate of breech babies that are born lately? I've had a couple of friends co-workers co-workers daughters and a niece have babies with-in the last year or so and 9 out of 11 of them have been found to be breech right before delivery and delivered c-section. Does that seem odd to anyone else? Is there something in the water making all these babies turn breech? Is it just our small hospital? Is it just that a c-section is a lot easier for the doctor (no middle of the night wake up call) and more profitable? Whats the deal?
italianprincess 8 years, 9 months ago
No cunfusion here neo. I answered the question for the day, but the article about the store caught my eye.
I see a future ban coming here for all adult related stores to be gone. Kinda crazy and someone has way to much time on their hands to be so bothered by this.
Lawrence is going in reverse.........waiting for yet more bans to come. Maybe a copy of " Footloose " with a ban on music, dancing, and FUN!!!!!!!!!!!
acg 8 years, 9 months ago
My mom went to her doc several years ago with a sinus infection. He gave her an experimental antibiotic that had just been released by Pfizer. The manufacturers recommendations on this drug were very clear. Only give it to someone in an inpatient situation. Watch their liver readings closely and only give it for 5 days, one dose per day. This moron wrote her a script for this crap for a bottle of 30 pills with a 5X refill! A week later she's in LMH with a malfunctioning liver. His excuse? He doesn't have time to keep up on all of the literature put out by the drug companies.
neopolss 8 years, 9 months ago
BAN THE ADULT STORE!
Wow, such comments on doctors, we need to eliminate the confusion.
BAN ALL OF THE DOCTORS!
Wait! I'm getting an even better idea!
BAN AMSTEL LIGHT!
BAN BARS!
BAN CHIPOTLE SOFT CHICKEN TACOS!
Whew! I feel better getting that off my chest. Now our Lawrence society will be much safer without all of these distractions.
italianprincess 8 years, 9 months ago
I have questioned my kids doc before. Hes a great doc , but sometimes a parent has a different view. I still wonder what Amoxill does for kids other then taste really good ( bubble gum ).
I can't believe the city is trying to make Naughty But Nice move their store as of July 31st. I have been in there to buy a few things for a g/f's bach party. They sell cards, novelty items and other things besides sexual aides.
Mike Rundle says the city should enforce the move because kids can't go into the store. Its an adult store, not an ice cream store. Kids are not allowed in back areas of video stores where they rent out adult movies, so I'm not sure I get that. Moving to another location isn't going to make a difference in whether a child under 18 tries to enter the store.
I have met Richard who owns the store and he seems like a nice guy whos running a buisness that does well. I asked him why he decided to open an adult store and he said.......He and his brother were going to open a bar, but didn't want to be the 86th bar in town.
We have two adult stores in town here that I see aren't to bad compared to other cities. Are people that suppressed here to be that bothered by a store like this? I know city regs are city regs, but I feel something bigger growing from this...........A ban of all adult stores maybe????????
Fangorn 8 years, 9 months ago
I've gone to the same doctor ever since I moved to Lawrence (nine years ago today, as a matter of fact). I trust him to listen to me and remember my health history. It's amazing how much he remembers, considering how infrequently I see him. It's always a good idea to do a web search on your symptoms and read the directions/precautions/side-effects/interactions sheet for any new medication (and for old ones too, if it's been a while).
l_eustacy: I had Chipotle's soft chicken tacos for supper last night. Avocados must be in season b/c the guac was especially good. // Hand-washing is the beset way to prevent the spread of disease. And if I may ask, where do you display your (ahem!) "color pictures"?
ms_canada 8 years, 9 months ago
I have never had cause to question the advice my doctor has given me so far in the 20 years that I have been under his care. He is a very caring, considerate man. After all this time he knows me well and I know him. He takes the time to talk to me and tells me what I need to know to feel confident in the treatment he has prescribed. If you don't have a doctor like that, look around, find one. Doctors were not all created equal, it is true. Your health and well being are, I guess, one of the most important aspects of your life. Don't mess with it.
neopolss 8 years, 9 months ago
I went to a dentist for a root canal and woke up with a huge pain in my a$$. I didn't realize the nerves went so far down, but according to the dentist they do. Even stranger, he hugged me before I left. Oh well.
I actually don't go to doctors - I have no insurance and cannot afford it. But I haven't been sick in a millenia or so. I pray to the nordic gods for strength and healing (while drinking an Amstel Light).
hottruckinmama 8 years, 9 months ago
i don't know about doctor's but i once had this happen at the dentist. i went in to have a tooth filled. well he could fill my tooth but only AFTER i had this really expensive and painful thing done called a root plaining. i went to another dentist had the tooth filled and went on my way. this has been over 10 years ago and i've never had any dire problems from not having this thing done like he claimed i would. i think he just wanted his part of my insurance money.
extreme_makeover 8 years, 9 months ago
You remember the series Dr. Novak?
Well Robert Novak is in deep do-do this morning and he's only a journalist.
Das_Ubermime 8 years, 9 months ago
I don't trust doctors, but that is mainly because my body never does what they expect it to. I took a penicillin once and developed a rash over my entire body. When I went in to be tested for an allergy to penicillins, it came up negative. I'm either in the group of around 5% of people allergic to penicillins who won't test positive for the allergy, or it was a one time only thing. My medical history is pretty much a list of "you might be this, but you might not be either". Lately I have taken to consulting an eight ball for a more definitive answer.
On a unrelated note: I say a prayer each night for people who think Amstel Light is good beer. May God overlook their poor judgement.
tell_it_like_it_is 8 years, 9 months ago
I wouldn't know. I won't go unless I have blood gushing or one leg dragging.
extreme_makeover 8 years, 9 months ago
Nowadays.
Unfortunately yesterday's trauma isn't such an easy issue to resolve.
enochville 8 years, 9 months ago
Nowadays if you get a TB test, they will normally do it twice. Evidently, it is well known that the first test result is unreliable.
Everyone should learn for themselves about their symptoms and disorders and treatments available. Take what you've found out to the doctor when you go. He or she may point you in the right direction or order tests that can determine what might be going on with you. Doctors usually like it when patients take initiative in learning about their health and will sometimes demystify what they are doing for your benefit.
I am sure that there are many on this board who are into alternative therapies. Sometimes they come across therapies that are truly helpful, but have not yet been researched due to lack of money. A handful of treatments started outside the mainstream and have now been incorporated into the mainstream due to confirming research. I believe most of those alternative therapies only work when they do due to the healing power of hope and optimism (in other words the placebo effect). This is a very real effect, it boosts the immune system and can reset emotional thinking, but the danger is some disorders are not very receptive to the placebo effect. Like I wouldn't suggest acupuncture or homeopathy for Alzheimer's or breast cancer, without getting normal treatments from a real doctor as well.
If you don't believe in the medical profession, you won't get the placebo effect from their treatments. You will none the less get the normal benefits from their treatments. Perhaps you should combine standard treatment with some alternative therapy you believe in so that you can get the placebo effect as well and speed the healing.
lunacydetector 8 years, 9 months ago
yes of course...though most doctors want the patient to give them the diagnosis. it must be relieving the doctors from potential lawsuits.
extreme_makeover 8 years, 9 months ago
Speaking of "quack shack", Watkins Hospital tested me for TB and gave me a false positive. Rather than suggest I should go to a 'real' facility and have another test, they simply looked at me like I had the plague.
I had another test run elsewhere and was not tuberculin.
Maybe I should telephone the doctor right about now.
l_eustacy 8 years, 9 months ago
Everyone should always question the medical advice, don't follow blindly. Educate yourself whenever possible. Google your symptoms. There is too much medical information for any human to retain it all. The best doctors will admit that.
Call Watkins a "quack shack" and then suggest going to a DO. That's funny. People who become DOs couldn't get in to real Medical schools. Why would anyone go to a person like that?
Use Purell, carry the pocket-size. Keep one on your desk. Wash your hands before you eat. ( I haven't had a cold in 3.5 yrs.)
The best floss is "Glide" It never breaks or shreds.
Get a colonoscopy; it painless and quick. I've got a great set of color pictures from mine.
Dr, Sholl's charcoal inserts will make your shoes stay fresh forever.
Chipotle has the best soft chicken tacos and hot sauce.
Japanese cars are the best.
Oval track car racing is boring.
"According to Jim" is funny.
Pizza Hut, thin crust , supreme is the best pizza and the hot wings are good too. Torre's Pizza, all-meat pizza is great.
Adding a shot of Ameratto to a margarita makes it perfect.
Amstel Light is good, but so are some of the low-carb beers. Micro-brews taste like crap.
GreenEyedBlues 8 years, 9 months ago
I went to Watkin's with what they declared was strep throat... They put me on antibiotics, which only added four weeks to my battle with what was actually mono. Quack Shack indeed!
I trust my doctor's advice. I mean, I'm still alive, aren't I? If he told me to do/take something that caused adverse effects, he would certainly hear about it.
extreme_makeover 8 years, 9 months ago
Take two aspirin and call me in the morning.
Guess it's time to get on the horn. ;)
pierced_daisy 8 years, 9 months ago
well first of all, watkins is known as the "quack shack" for a reason.
Second of all, I never trust doctors. Unless they are a DO. I only goto DO's or Nurse practitioners.
linux_chick 8 years, 9 months ago
I was given allergy medicine from Watkins once only to find out the next day I had strep throat. This is after asserting that my nose was clear and I hadn't sneezed in months... didn't matter: it's allergies.
I know these guys go to med. school, but we know our own bodies.
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