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Should museums keep American Indian artifacts that are considered sacred?

Asked at Asked at Southwind 12, 3433 Iowa on August 27, 2005

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Photo of Andrew Ra

“Personally, I would say they can keep them on the premise of benefiting society.”

Photo of Eugenia Miles

“They should give them back to the tribe. I think they’ve taken enough from them already.”

Photo of Nathan Wallace

“If the tribe is asking for them back, then no. Although it would be cool if they could find a way to share them with everybody.”

Photo of Sean Kalist

“I say just let them keep them, because that’s the way it has always been done.”

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Comments

enochville 8 years, 12 months ago

I agree with redbird and e_m; and thanks e_m for the policy quote which I feel should be the policy of all museums. Where a living culture exists, they should have possession of their sacred objects. Artifacts from extinct cultures are a different story, but still should be treated with respect.

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Liberty 8 years, 12 months ago

What RedBird said.

Less government control = restored freedom. We need to restore our Constitutional Republic and abolish this Congressional democracy.

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shanefivedyes 8 years, 12 months ago

Im actually working nights you guys go to bed

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lunacydetector 8 years, 12 months ago

having not read the article since there hasn't been one posted just yet, my first inclination would be to inquire as to where the museum got the sacred artifacts in the first place. i'd think that sacred artifacts could be loaned out to museums or donated, for the good of the history.

if the museum recieved the artifacts illegally, then they should be returned to their rightful owners.

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kcwarpony 8 years, 12 months ago

Keep them? No. If the artifacts can be traced back to their tribe, an effort to return them should be made. I realize that many museums have paid large sums of money for some of these items but unfortunately many of those items have been stolen from tribal lands (graves) and even from some of our National Parks. I do not believe museums should be allowed to keep stolen property. Whether they knew it was stolen or not.

There are some sacred items should not be on display at all out of respect for our spirituality.

Human remains? No. That is a whole different matter. Indian Country Today on Friday had an interesting article on the subject. http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096411456

"The Smithsonian's preliminary inventory in the mid-1980s revealed a collection of some 23,000 human remains directly related to existing Native nations - 4,500 Indian heads and 18,500 whole or partial Native bodies."

Really, how much more can be learned from the bones of are ancestors? Is what they learn going to help us raise our children today?

Tribes loaning out artifacts to museums benefits everyone. The items would belong to the rightful caretakers (the tribes) and the museums might benefit by being able to change displays more often.

We are proud of our culture and willing to educate and share when done in a respectful way.

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Bill Chapman 8 years, 12 months ago

Just let them have the items "because that's the way it has always been done". How dumb can you get??? If everyone just did everything the same way "because that's the way it has always been done" the human race would still be grubbing in the dirt for food!!! However this gets resolved, everyone should remember and understand that these items/remains are highly valued items belonging first the family/tribe they came from. If removed without premission they should be returned, if received with permision they should be returned (in the condition received)at the end of the showing / contract / agreement. If the person allowing the item(s) to be shown dies, the receiving institution should contact the heir. Keeping native armerican artifacts / remains just for the sake of having them is nothing more than theft.

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redbird 8 years, 12 months ago

Give them back to the tribes......if they are not on a respectful display and it seems theyare not,please give them back!!!! Most if not all the major Indian tribes have museums that house and proudly and respectfully display thier ancestral objects,both everday and religious. Being partially biased on the matter,even though we are all Christians,why have a museum that most of the time has no one that knows or understands the complex religions of Native American tribes.They can give you a textbook description of the items and what that same textbook describes what it may have been used for,but without the actual religious practice experience,what they are telling you is nothiing but hotair.They are few people who know these practices and most in the tribal museums have does this or it has been passed down to them. The tribal religions all worship Mother Earth and the Creator,but most cannot be practiced because of the laws imposed by the federal government prohibits the use of certain "ingedients" used in the rituals to achieve an enlightened vision or quest to understand our religion and this isnot right either.But back to the question if it is not on display please give it to someone who will and will be proud to say "This is my people's object of worship!!"

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happygolucky 8 years, 12 months ago

Let them keep them. History is history. And as we all know, history is written by the winner. I am so tired of hearing how they were wronged this way and that way. If a country invades another, the weak loses out. This time it was them. There are always "Natives". I don't receive money when I turn 18 and have a casino. Let alone free school. My life is just as rough as theirs. It's not like Little Big Horn was last weekend. Sitting Bull is dead. So is that time in history. If they want their stuff back, give up the Rez, casinos, Fed Aide, and free schools. Want to be your own tribe, then stand on your own two feet. Stop whinning and make it on your own. If a Mexican can come over here with nothing and make it than so can some one who is already here.

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sunflower_sue 8 years, 12 months ago

I guess (not being an anthropologist) Im not entirely sure what consitiutes a "sacred" object. IMO, if the object was given to someone by the tribe and then later donated to the meuseum, the museum should be allowed to keep it. People who donate to museums usually do so because they feel an item is worth protecting and also worth sharing.

I grew up where there was a really great collection of Native American artifacts in one of our museums. As a child, (lucky enough to have a parent who took me there often) I developed an interest, and then later, a deep respect and appreciation for the many Native American tribes. Had the artifacts not been there...well, who knows.

As for stolen artifacts, yes, absolutely they should be returned. But I think the only way to prove something was stolen is if it is something (like human remains) that no Native American would ever give away in the first place. Regardless, all items should be treated with the utmost respect.

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bugmenot 8 years, 12 months ago

I'm tired of hearing everything that is sacred and how Native American's should get special rights. What the hell is sacred about casinos, sure doesn't stop them from trying to build them.

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GreenEyedBlues 8 years, 11 months ago

Good call, Larryville!

I'm sure Americans would be in an uproar if they found the Holy Grail or some other age-old Christian relic and wanted to put it somewhere other than in white hands.

P.S. Macon's comment makes me want to barf twice. Nobody is THAT pig-headed, or so I thought.

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redbird 8 years, 11 months ago

happygolucky,macon47,bugmenot and others....do you know what it is like to grow up with inadequate resources of income or housing??? A mexican can at least get money from the government and for what ???Nothing,they have not paid taxes,can make their money and run back home and live like kings on what they made here!!!! Would you like someone to come into your home,take it over and make you do everything their way....oh wait that is called home invasion now!!!! How would you like someone to say that your religion is not the way and send you to their schools and you learn their ways of thinking??? I myself have not experienced myself but my family has a many stories such as these....even the kkk was after the "indians" when there wasn't any blacks to be found...... Now after someone taking all that you ever knew to be home and all you ways of life is adjusted to other ways of life and stuck in a sh*thole part of the country to live where they want you to,tell me is that whining about the past??? It should be the English,Spanish,Irish,Scots and others that came here and took over paying rent to the Native people of this nation.....you know like the billions perhaps trillions that is paid,by our government, out to other countries that we feel sorry for the conditions that they live in.....CLEAN YOUR OWN LAWN BEFORE GOING INTO ANOTHER'S!!!!!!

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John Spencer 8 years, 11 months ago

I wish I had time to open a museum/youth league and 'gather' by all legal means Jewish and Anglo-Christian relics and bodies and display them. Then start a basketball team called something like; the Big Nose Jumpin Jesus's. A mascot of Jesus with pogo sticks that look like crosses would be hilarious. Maybe the mascot could hop all over waving a sequen covered menorah. The possibilities are endless. I wonder how long the 'public' would stand for that?

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sunflower_sue 8 years, 11 months ago

WAM, That was a good anology (and pretty funny), but there ARE museums that portray other ways of life and thier relics. I think we've gotten off of the main ? today. I still stand by my original post. I think that museums serve to educate. Not to poke fun at. By all means, if it is ill-gotten booty...then return it. If not, let it be on display so that others my learn that there are cultures different from thier own. We are only afraid of what we don't know. Knowledge leads to acceptance.

Now, I'm off to the T-Bone game. (I hope that doesn't upset those readers who deem cattle as sacred. I'm sure they mean no disrespect.)

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Fangorn 8 years, 11 months ago

I believe WAM's analogy was ridiculous. The post displays absolutely no understanding of why mascots are usually chosen. The "Big Nose Jumpin Jesus's" would obviously be intended to ridicule or denigrate both the Jewish and Christian religions. Mascots like the Seminoles or the Chiefs are chosen because of their virtues, as a symbol of strength and prowess. I've never heard of Scandinavians protesting the Minnesota Vikings. Nor have I heard Catholics complaining about any teams called the Crusaders or the Padres in San Diego, which recognizes the history of the Catholic missions in SoCal.

And as for how long the "public" would stand for the misuse of Christian or Jewish symbols, I will remind you of Serrano's "Piss Christ" and the display in NYC a few years ago of the Virgin Mary, a sacred figure to Catholics, covered in elephant dung and pictures of female genitalia. Yes, there were those who protested the disrepect inherant in such displays, but these people were castigated and rebuked by the very people who whine loudest about the use of aboriginal names and symbols by sports teams.

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Carmenilla 8 years, 11 months ago

Actually there has been a change to the Crusaders mascot. I thought that I read that they changed them to the Cardinals. Some people took offense because of the connotation to a VERY violent time in history.

Also, when you look at the depiction of Native Americans as mascots over the years it recalls "mammy" art and depictions of African Americans. I know the days of the big-nosed "Redskin" are gone but the feelings still linger with the native population. Its not like they have EVER gotten a fair shake really. What little of their heritage is left to preserve is probably pretty fragile. And this is coming from someone who spent half a dozen summers on the Kickapoo reservation (I'm not a native).

Lastly, Fangorn, you seemed to have lost all the warmth and generosity in your posts. Lately when you do post you seem full of the same bile and contempt that you were so against at first. Your tone in the post above is of one who looks to blame and shame others. Where is the gentle and kindly ent that first posted on here many months ago? Has the devisive nature of the people on this board gotten to you. I know that it has gotten to me. That is why post infrequently. As do you.....Too bad we let the terrorizers win.

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Carmenilla 8 years, 11 months ago

And I'm sorry but when the Catholic Church has to defend itself against a little controversial "art" I don't really feel bad for them. They still maintain a powerful presence in the world today. Sex scandals and lagging faith doesn't seem to stop the Vatican from being one of the RICHEST city/state/entity's around.

Maybe they can stand a little criticism.......

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ms_canada 8 years, 11 months ago

WAM - I don't know what the heck you were trying to say, but it was indeed, ridiculous. Just venting your spleen, I suppose. Not funny, I don't think. But, hey, join the crowd. There are those on this board who only post to make fun of something or other instead of contributing something of value that makes sense. We have our fun and that is good, but never at the expense of one of the others. Shame on you.

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happygolucky 8 years, 11 months ago

Redbird-Yes I do know what its like. I had to bust my hump just like my parents and grand parents to get what I have. I didn't whine for a hand out, build a casino, or any lame BS that the "natives" pull. Cry me a river or another trail if you like. When your done, get a job and act like an american. I am tired of paying taxes so others can sit around getting faded on booze and dope. Not all "natives" are lazy good for nothings, but the ones who are give a bad name to the ones who aren't.

Indian money? Hell yeah some tribes get money when they come of age. I don't have a rez I can fall back on. Even if it is a rat hole, it's something. We could go back to playing Cowboys and Indians again. Remember how it worked out the last time. Only now you have a bunch of people who really want to get at you.

I think if you feel like whining some more about how bad you have it, look at Iraq and other third world countries. As for paying rent. Your Ancestors said when asked who own this land that No one could own mother earth. Guess they were wrong huh? If some one is big and bad enogh to take my land and try and change my way of life I'll point to the crying whining indians and maybe I'll get my own rez and a little cash to boot. I guess you should have won the indian wars. Sore loser. Your tears fall on deaf ears.

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Carmenilla 8 years, 11 months ago

Welcome to the 21st century folks! Ain't it grand?

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redbird 8 years, 11 months ago

happygolucky.....thank you for letting people know what some "Americans" think of the Native Americans...I will leave it at that,otherwise I risk the chance of having this post and future post being removed.....

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happygolucky 8 years, 11 months ago

Glad I could clear that up for you. Didn't want you to think that you were the only one who had if rough. Life is what YOU make, not what some one owes you.

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bugmenot 8 years, 11 months ago

Redbird, I agree with you on how horrible Native American's were treated in the past, but that's exactly what it is, THE PAST. Nobody currently living had anything to do with what happened hundreds of years ago. Why should you expect the government to give you something nowaday. The government doesn't owe you or anyone else anything just because of your race. Quit sitting around whining about how you didn't get this or didn't get that and go out and do something with your life like almost everyone else including myself had too.

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sunflower_sue 8 years, 11 months ago

Well, the T-Bones game was a lot of fun. They won. No protesters against the cow mascot.

Speaking of mascots... (which seem to have made their way into this discussion today) I am a KU grad. Now, after reading about the border wars preceeding and during the civil war, it sure changed my outlook on being called a "Jayhawker".

My favorite team (the Chiefs) lost tonight. Maybe they should name the team after me instead. I'd consider it an honor! Go Sunny Sues!!! (Just doesn't sound right) Oh well!

What was the ? today? Oh, museums...I love them. One of my favorites is the psyche museum in St. Joe. One of the displays is a piece of art made out of the contents of a woman's stomach that were removed during surgery (in which she died, btw). Over 1500 pieces of metal, spoons, nails, buttons, salt shaker caps...the list goes on and on. I'm sure they didn't get the woman's permission to put them on display but I think it's grossly cool. Nicely aranged in concentric circles, too.

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kcwarpony 8 years, 11 months ago

happygolucky, you come off as the classic Indian hater. You will never allow yourself to be educated about the subject of Indians but I will tell you anyway. I have my CDIB card (Certificate of Degree of Indian Blood) that is issued from the Department of Interior (yes, the government has to determine my blood line, rather personal don't you think?) and I am an enrolled member of my tribe. I do not receive money of any kind because what money our casinos make is used for reinvesting in other businesses and for programs for our people. Casinos would not be viable businesses if people did not want them. You build it and they will come. Those casinos are not filled up with Indians you know, except the ones who are employed there. My tribe does award scholarships, about 5000 thousand per year, but none of these are full ride scholarships. Not even close. The majority of them are clothing allowance and books. They are meant to assist like any other scholarship program. If an Indian does receive a free education it is because somewhere their ancestors signed a treaty stating education for future members as a point. The reason we "whine" is because the federal government has not been honorable in fulfilling their treaty obligations. The government policy for dealing with Indians was a paternalistic one. Remember the "Great White Father in Washington" crap? The government wanted to make us dependent in order to have better control over us. The treaties were written this way and now the U.S. does not want to honor those treaties. If you signed an agreement with someone wouldn't you want them to live up to their end of the deal? And to make matters worse, the Individual Indian Monies Trust Fund account, to which royalties from our mineral rights (oil, gas, coal, timber:) are to be deposited in, can't even be verified! It is estimated that possibly billons of dollars are missing! Would you be happy if your bank couldn't (or wouldn't) give you an accounting of your balance? Why should we? www.indiantrust.com for info on the Cobell vs. Norton case. I don't see why you are so hateful towards Indians. What has an Indian ever done to you? Every racial group whines about something, are you this way towards everyone?

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kcwarpony 8 years, 11 months ago

bugmenot, you seem to be no better.

"Nobody currently living had anything to do with what happened hundreds of years ago." You are correct but you can't deny that people today are not benefiting from the past.

"Why should you expect the government to give you something nowaday." Because I know of no treaties that had an expiration date due to the paternalistic "don't worry, we'll (U.S.) take care of you" attitude. Andrew Jackson's "for as long as the grass shall grow:" Well, I have to mow my lawn every week.

"The government doesn't owe you or anyone else anything just because of your race." Treaty obligations. Has nothing to do with race.

Look up the word S-O-V-E-R-E-I-G-N-T-Y and read the Constitution, you might get a clue.

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redbird 8 years, 11 months ago

Thank you kcwarpony.....I'm not a good typist and you certainly put out there what I was thinking.... bugmenot,happygo lucky....yes I have went out and did something with my life,education,travel,studies.....now I reside in this area....I am only a landscaper/master gardener but an educated one,trained cook,master bartender (go figure,you're probably thinking!!)....a long way from my roots of growing up!!!! Thank you for solidifying the slang staement of this state...."Kansas,it's as bigoted as you think!!!"

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happygolucky 8 years, 11 months ago

Warpony-I guess if you want indian welfare the I guess you have to jump through the hoops. What more to you want, all the land back? Kiss my white butt. You and all the whiners need to buck up and come to terms with losing. If it had been the other way around, I don't think you would be cutting me a check. Countries get invaded all the time. Ways of life change everyday. You seem to think your poop doesn't stink and we OWE you. You've been paid more than any one else in the history of the world. Maybe you should count yourself lucky that it was the old west and a bunch of whities and not the 1940's and a bunch of Nazi's. Hum, smoked indian. Doesn't sound good. You got off better than most who have been overtaken. Take what you have, make the most of it and leave it be. You act as if this was all going on a couple of years ago. Where in the hell do you think your money comes from. ME and ALL the other tax payers. I don't know to many 150 + year old cowboys out there. I don't owe you anything and now that you have me steamed, I wouldn't walk across the road to piss on you if you were on fire, let alone stomp you out. Until now I was ok with Haskell and didn't really have a problem with John Q. Indian, but you have opened my eyes to the lazy whiners you are. All you want is something for free, not the ability to take care of your self, which is what every one who is fresh off the boat wants. A better life. Not you, no way. You want us cracker white folk to pay and pay and pay. Sorry bud, but the funds are running out. Maybe you should move on. That's what the Mexicans are doing. We took Texas from them and I don't remember giving them a check, or a rez. Are they still crying about it, no. I think that after this I am now a full on Indian Hater. Thank you for for clearing that up for me. Now when I hire I will ALWAYS pass on the native and when I'm in you fine casino I'll never put my money on RED.

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Linda Aikins 8 years, 11 months ago

Happygolucky, I think you need to change your screen name. geez.

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happygolucky 8 years, 11 months ago

Gootsie-After this topic, I would have to agree with you on that.

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astarte 8 years, 11 months ago

hap - you're hiring for what???

As if it is such a loss not getting a chance to work for a guy as lovely as you!!!

PLEASE spare us both & tell me where NOT to apply.

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kcwarpony 8 years, 11 months ago

bugmenot, I stand by my reasoning on casinos, even Kansas has lotteries and Missouri has riverboat gambling. Casinos don't "take" anyone's money, people seem to hand it over willingly. The same thing is true with alcohol, cigarettes, even junk food. All things that are not so good for you, all things that can become addictions (not so much the junk food), but are legal all the same.

I know of no Indian casinos that are on truly spiritual sacred lands. Which ones are you referring to? People may mistake blessing ceremonies before the start of construction or ceremonies at grand openings as to mean we consider casinos as sacred but we do not. Casinos are not sacred.

Everything I have has been bought and paid for by an earned paycheck. I have never received any money from the government or my tribe.

The only thing I think Indians deserve is to be treated with honesty and respect, the way everyone should be treated. And that includes honoring treaty obligations.

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bugmenot 8 years, 11 months ago

Casinos would not be viable businesses if people did not want them. You build it and they will come. Those casinos are not filled up with Indians you know, except the ones who are employed there.

Nice argument there warpony. So on your so called sacred land you take working families money. Many of people have lost their life savings because of casinos. I could make the same argument with methamphetamine. Maybe the Indian's could start peddling that, heck, it's got to be a viable business because people want it.

What I'm sick of in this whole argument is that you feel that you deserve something from the government for being born Indian. Nobody chooses to whom they are born and what they are given at birth. Some people are born with a lot, some people born with little, and most people born with just enough. People that want handouts for nothing are usually people who can't do things for themselves and always want other people to help them out. Maybe I'm going to start whining too because I wasn't given anything at birth. Heck everyone else on here is.

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astarte 8 years, 11 months ago

Hey hap & bug - only spineless cowards spew racial hatred with concealed identity. Are you intentionally emulating the KKK or simply of the same mental caliber? Please prove me wrong here - I challenge you to reveal who you are & then stand behind your words. If you do indeed believe your statements have any validity or merit at all, take ownership.

Obviously warpony's excellent post threatened hap's overblown ego that he had no choice but to divert attention away from truth by employing juvenile bully tactics. OOOhhh, hap is soooo tough....ugh!

It's almost funny that HAP & BUG ARE THE ONLY ONES WHINING!!!

While you may think you have shown us how righteous you are, you've actually exposed how ignorant, intolerant, uneducated, arrogant, petty, greedy, malcontented, ill-natured, hostile, racist, small-minded, shallow, immature & self-centered you truly are.

If you can't deal with contemporary American issues, why don't you take passage on the first ship headed back to whatever country your ancestors came from?

The two of you make me embarrassed to be white.

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bugmenot 8 years, 11 months ago

Hey astarte, name one time where I'm racist. Have any leanings toward the KKK, or anything of the such. Huh, you can't name any??? I don't dislike one racial group any more than any other. Everybody has there own problems, my problem is with people who expect something for nothing. That's what warpony is arguing about. Nobody chooses what they are born with, he thinks that the government owes him something because he is Indian. So astarte is you take your own advice and take passage on a ship if your truly too stupid to figure out how to correctly read and interpret a post that I made.

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astarte 8 years, 11 months ago

Try some grammar lessons, bug. Perhaps your posts would be interpretable IF you could write a decent sentence.

Your ignorance prevents YOU from basic reading comprehension, as evidenced in your failure to grasp the point that the US Government made COMMITMENTS then did NOT honor them.

Maybe you are incapable of valuing such things as living up to LEGALLY BINDING AGREEMENTS.

It is YOU who is DEMANDING SOMETHING FOR NOTHING.

And THAT sure seems to me to be THE AMERICAN -- NOT the Indian -- WAY!!!

As for LAZINESS, how about educating yourself before making a fool of yourself again? Given your reading deficiencies, you COULD at least try watching a little PBS once in a while. Don't worry, they won't stop airing Beverly Hillbillies if you occasionally change the channel.

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kcwarpony 8 years, 11 months ago

Thank you, astarte. I'm glad to see someone understood the point I was trying to make.

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astarte 8 years, 11 months ago

No problem, warpony. Your posts were impressively level-headed & spot on in the midst of such lesser effort.

More people ought to read Dee Brown's 'Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee' (if nothing else) before copping negative attitudes & self-righteous positions.

You have much respect from at least one fellow Lawrence resident. Keep fighting the good fight!

Mi takuye o'yasin.

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happygolucky 8 years, 11 months ago

Astarte-James Lochart, I live in Mclouth and have worked in Lawrence since High school. I too am sorry you are white. I am not afraid to let prople know who I am. Back you words and pop off you name, if you have the berries. I bet not. If you would have followed what was said from the start, I stated that not all "Natives" were lazy. But, if after 100 + years, you still can't get it together, than tough. You only get welfare for 4 years and then your cut off. Just because you were born an "Indian" doesn't mean I should have to cut you a check. It was these 2, now 3, "whining bad seeds that have swayed me to "the dark side". Tell me why I should be fine with someone who wasn't even ALIVE when wounded knee or little big horn was happening, be allowed to beg for a hand out. If you, your parents , or grandparents haven't gotten on your feet by now, then die on the street. You are a drain on everyone. As for commitments from the Government, be glad we didn't kill you all. This was a ploy to try and let you live in peace. You know, kinda stop the war. If they would have known how much you'd be riding the system, things would have been different. Say what you want, but you have wasted enough of my time. I'd rather clean up dog drops than give you another minute.

Oh, and I love PBS. Red Green rules.

And pull your nose out of redbirds and ponys brown eye.

SORE LOSERS!

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astarte 8 years, 11 months ago

JEANETTE MARIE KEKAHBAH

And EAT those dog drops, lochart.

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kcwarpony 8 years, 11 months ago

Me thinks white man speak with fork tongue. happygolucky posted on August 11th 2005..."I live in North Lawrence..."

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Different_View 8 years, 11 months ago

Sorry to say this but in a way the Hapster is right. If he lives south of Mclouth, He can have a North Lawrence Address and Zip, but still go to Mclouth schools. and be considered Mclouth. I live on Wellman road and I have an Lawrence Address with the Zip 66044,the same as North Lawrence and my kids go to McLouth. 14 miles North of town is well with in that range. And but the way I have Jeff county tags, so the county doesn't matter. Before you jump him over small things, you should check it out. You can even call the McLouth schools to see for your self. (913) 796-6122

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happygolucky 8 years, 11 months ago

Pony-Mclouth is North Lawrence. 14 miles north of town. own my own land, and I didn't trade your dumb ass for some beads and blankies. Lawrence is where work, buy food, spend my paycheck, so forth and so on. Every been to McLouth? No wally world here. Blink and you miss it. So as us white crackers like to say....Go foxtrot uniform charlie kilo yourself. And take Ms Kekahbah with you.

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astarte 8 years, 11 months ago

Ain't no missing hap Cranky like he got the clap His mind must of gone snap Enjoys his dog's crap What a gem of a chap

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kcwarpony 8 years, 11 months ago

hap, "Mclouth is North Lawrence." That is what you said, is it not? That is an incorrect statement. Your August 11th post " I live in North Lawrence..." also incorrect. You make it sound like McLouth is part of the city of Lawrence, it's not. McLouth is in Jefferson County. How can anyone believe a thing you say?

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kcwarpony 8 years, 11 months ago

Different_View, I did check it out, it must have been old info. I stand corrected, thank you.

But I still wouldn't believe anything hap has to say, especially on Indian issues where he is grossly misinformed.

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Different_View 8 years, 11 months ago

No worries. He just has his way of looking at things as you do yours. Being this id the good ol' U S of A, I guess he can be that way. Live and let live I guess. Some people still live like it's the 40's and 50's. Or maybe he's Military do to the phonics he used. My brother was in D Storm and came back the same way as Happypants. With as hot as he is, maybe he'll burn out quick. Have a good one.

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