Should the city create a citizen review board for the police department? / LJWorld.com

merrill 7 years, 9 months ago

Absolutely yes

bankboy119 7 years, 9 months ago

I wish I got a lunch break...

sharron5rs 7 years, 9 months ago

When was Big Brother supposed to take place? Seems like THIS city council, is trying to mmake 2005. The police are responsible for there own. They seem to be handeling it pretty good so far. Dosent or mayor have enough things on his plate already? How many things were put off until it is "looked into" further,in the past year( except roundabouts)Leave the police alone.

Spoken1 7 years, 9 months ago

How in the world is the people having a voice being Big Brother? I am sorry sharron5rs, but that is rediculous. The police having no community oversight IS big brother. You honestly don't think that the community should have any say in how they are policed? WE PAY THE TAXES TO PAY THEIR SALARIES, SO WE SHOULD HAVE A SAY IN HOW THEY OPERATE. Unreal, unbelievable, uninformed.

Grammaton 7 years, 9 months ago

I think it's a great idea. The police as a majority do a heck of a job, one that I wouldn't want to wake up to every day. Although, there are some officers in this town who do not deserve badges. This idea would serve as a suitable means of protection from these officers' malpractice, other than aid that the ACLU and others provide.

smitty 7 years, 9 months ago

Yes. Can we make it retroactive for about 15 years? Make that the entire tenure of Olin as chief.

The panel must have enforcement powers for it to be effective. Olin and the administrative officers are going to fight this.

I'm eagar to see what the good citizens of Lawrence actually think on this topic.

e-m, think I'll go for coffee and tongue before attempting any humor on this subject.

Grammaton 7 years, 9 months ago

I thought I had less time to post than I do. So, to elaborate:

I don't think the city will go for this, as there's already adequate means of bringing issues about the police to the police. One simply has to go through the right channels. I'm not, say, going to complain about an officer to another officer.

I could go both ways on this.

papa_smurf 7 years, 9 months ago

Absolutely, simply because of officers like admitted and convicted officer Pfortmiller from Topeka that will be sentenced Sept. 16th. Check out what this servant of the public was charged with and what he was allowed to plead down to. He must have had O.J. Simpsons dream team, its appauling and even the Chief of police can't believe it. Several articles on this story are at archives in the Topeka paper and are really worth the read. The average citizen in his position would have done 20 years.

consumer1 7 years, 9 months ago

Uh... papa smurf, we are talking about the LAWRENCE PD, not the Topeka PD. There is a huge difference. Let's not base what we do in Lawrence by what happens in Topeka. That is apples to oranges. Smitty, I am guessing you are one of the old radicals who hate any authority at all. So, your comments are too full of venom to have any validity. If you toned your comments down a bit, they might gain more folks to your cause. But, I doubt it. Some people just hate authority, they hate life, they hate everything they don't understand. I would say there will be plenty of vile poison spewed by them in this blog today. Have a good day all. I am 10-20

Topside 7 years, 9 months ago

I have one thing to say...WHat the hell took so long. Police are one of the only public officials/servants that basically answer to nobody and they act like it. I always love police officers driving around power tripping over every little thing. I love how cops roll up to my window with theri hands near or on their gun and then start talking s*&t about why they pulled you over.
papa_smurf is also right about that topeka cop. Once, they do get busted their is a total "protect you own" mentallity. That cop probably did more but the dept couldn't cover it all up for him fast enough. We need more Serpicos and less Dirty Harrys.

Cops suck.

craigers 7 years, 9 months ago

I don't think it would be a bad idea, but you would have to somehow watch for bias coming from people that have a chip on their shoulder about police officers. Maybe other law enforcement officers should be on the board to offer insight to the citizens. I think this would give the citizens the right mind set to critique the police department. If you don't know what it is like to be in that position, I don't think you have any business judging them. The whole walk a mile in their shoes before you claim to know how they should react to situations.

Topside 7 years, 9 months ago

consumer_1: Your right I am spewing venom today. You need to get out more if you think cops in Lawrence are much different than cops in Topeka. That might be the most naive and ignorant statement I've ever heard. I respect authority I work for the Gov. and I love living life. But, when I get pulled over for going 8 mph over the speed limit don't treat me like I have a trunk full of Meth and a dead hooker in the back seat.

craigers 7 years, 9 months ago

Yeah, heaven forbid they protect their own. Especially when there are citizens out there that want to whine about being pulled over, Topside! They have their hand on their gun because you never know what you are going to get each and every time you pull somebody over. They aren't profiling your car or anything like that, but they need to be cautious to keep themselves ready in case of an emergency. I for one, don't think Topside and other citizens that are this angry with cops should be on the committee. Let cops protect their own from citizens that don't know better and want to lynch them.

sunflower_sue 7 years, 9 months ago

I'm thinking no. I guess I really don't feel that LPD would "protect their own" if "their own" wasn't deserving of protection. Not to say that it doesn't happen...I just don't think that it is a great problem. I certainly wouldn't want their job. And if I did have it, I wouldn't want uninvolved people making judgement calls on how I reacted when my buns were on the line. It's a difficult ? to answer.

italianprincess 7 years, 9 months ago

Good morning everyone on this cloudy rainy day.

I think a review board is a great idea. It would be good for the citizens to have a say in what goes on around here. I do like the idea of living so close the LPD which makes me feel safe.

One thing that does bothers me is this:

My son's g/f got pulled over for speeding not long ago and the officer must have in training that pulled her over. She wasn't sure but he did have another older looking officer in the car with him and he was quite young. This may be long, but bear with me here.

Anyway, He pulled her over, asked her for her drivers license and registration which is normal. He put these two items in his pocket and walked back to his car. She watched as he called in her license and then came back to the car. He then asked her to step out of the car and sit on the curb. After asking what she was doing out so late ( 12:30 pm and shes 18 ) he asked her where she was going. She told the officer that she was going to her grandfather's house to stay the night because her parents were out of town. He asked her why she couldn't stay at her own house, shes 18 and an adult. She mentioned that her parents didn't want her staying alone at the house and to stay at her grandfather's house. He then asked her what her address and phone number and her grandfather's address and his phone number. He then took out his own cell phone and called her grandfather at 12:45 am to make sure she was telling the truth. I can't believe he called her grandfather at that hour which was uncalled for. He then asked her to take a drug and alcohol test which she did. Of course she passed, shes a good kid from a very well known family here in Lawrence.

After all of that happened she called me knowing I would still be up. She was in tears because of the way this officer treated her. I told her it sounded like he was harrassing her and he had no right asking her the questions which had no regard to what he pulled her over for. Shes 18 and a very pretty young lady and the way he handled things was a bit strange. To many personal questions I would say here. I told her to inform her parents, pay the speeding ticket because she was speeding, but to also go down and complain how things were handled.

What do all of you think? Would like to get your view of this one.

Have a great Thursday.........its almost FRIDAY.

consumer1 7 years, 9 months ago

Topside, what the He**?? Did I pull your string? NO! You are just another hate monger who feels inadeqate about what you have not accomplished with your life. So, you take it out on those you admire most. You must be a cop wanna be. YOu don't respect authority that much is obvious. When I want your oppinion, I will give it to you. END OF STORY!!

smitty 7 years, 9 months ago

consumer1, got any comments on venemous posting by any other form participant? Mine was not at all venemous. Personal attacks over unfounded/unknowns are not valid arguements to my statement that there need be enforcement powers by the citizens review.

e-m, ?cc stand for? Your discription of the difficulty in administering a review board is valid. There are review boards in place in other cities that have enforcement powers. I'll do some research of this later.

The review panel's recommendations after the police shooting of Gregg Sevier had no clout, only suggestions that Olin circumvented. Such as hiring of natives to balance the police numbers to the ratio of natives in the citizenry. The review panel, city, JW, and the entire population of Lawrence was told at the time of the shooting there were no natives on the police force and to make the correction in hiring pratices. Truth is the third and supervising officer at the shooting was George Wheeler. George Wheeler and the LPD's arrogance exposed several years later that Wheeler was a Cherokee when he was reported in the JW to be involved in rewriting the Cherokee constitution. SO WHY WASN'T WHEELER A CHEROKEE AT THE TIME OF THE PEER REVIEWS SUGGESTIONS FOLLOWING THE SHOOTING? Olin wouldn't jerk us around with false statistics, would he? You decide.

Let's take the statements that Olin and his adimiistrative officers made through Wildgen's office that the internal investigation found all police procedures were followed. Upon arriving at the scene of the shooting Olin had the two officers that fired their weapons go to his car(it's in the official public records) and wait until he drove the back to the law enforcement center. Normally officers are keep separate until they make their staements. Olin fronted this break in procedure by sitting Bordman and Phillips in his car for an extended period of time at the scene of the shooting.

Once back at the center the officers involved in the shooting were allowed not to confer with their attorneys prior to summitting their written reports about the incident. Is that procedure? Don't think so folks. Olin orchestrated that one too. Just more radical, venemous information extracted from official records.

Olin is the problem, management of him is the problem. The lack of Wildgen's ability to monitor and supervise a powerful political department head, Olin, is the problem. The commissioners not getting accurate information is the problem.

There needs to be a review process with enforcement powers. If Olin remains an obstacle to this process he needs to be replaced.

italianprincess 7 years, 9 months ago

Thats not the point here ( last name ) . Well known family or not I feel he over stepped his position.

This officer had no right asking her personal questions like he did. He handled things wrong and she be told about it.

My story isn't odd at all either, this officer was wrong in the way he did his job. He had no right asking her the questions he asked her. She did get a ticket for speeding liek anyone else would have. It was the way he was acting that made her feel uncomfortable.

papa_smurf 7 years, 9 months ago

Consumer1- I'm supporting the police 100% and I agree the Lawrence PD is top notch. Do you imagine the people from Topeka said "This won"t happen to us, here" when they heard the story of the officer from Tulia Texas who was convicted of similar crimes as Pfortmiller? Do you think an officer who has sworn an oath to obey and uphold the law should be scrutinized more than the average citizen. He checked out 4.5 POUNDS of highly addictive Methamphetimine from the police evidence room and never brought it back and has not been charged with trafficking narcotics. He was originally charged with over 100 counts of crimes and not for the theft and possibly the sale of 4.5 POUNDS Methamphetimine. He is a treasonous traitor in the war on drugs and the maximum sentence he can recieve is 16 months, his lawyer is asking for probation. This is a slap in the face to good cops that pay for their own gambling habits and are doing a good job at getting killer drugs like Meth of our streets. Now if you had a pot violation and it went to federal court, you face a minimum of 2 years 2 months in prison, even if it was possesion in your own home. This is unfair, I'm not venomous, I'm outraged at this policy. A student caught with 1 marijuana seed looses federal funding, while a thief or habitual drunk driver or a forger all still qualify. The law should read ANY felony, not exclusively drug crimes. Why shoud we give a child molester federal money and not some kid who had a pot leaf stuck to the bottom of their shoe? A review board would help stop any doubt of immpropriaty.

smitty 7 years, 9 months ago

CORRECTION: Once back at the center the officers involved in the shooting were allowed (delete not) to confer with their attorneys prior to summitting their written reports about the incident. Is that procedure?

acg 7 years, 9 months ago

IP's story doesn't sound odd to me. One of the 1st things cops love do when they pull you over is ask where you're going, what you're doing on this side of the city, where you're headed, where you're coming from, etc. Why does it matter to them? Every time I've had a cop ask me where I'm headed I tell them as an American citizen I'm headed down this very public street, as to my final destination it's none of his/her business. It's gotten me into confrontations with them many times but if a citizen knows their rights they'll be jerked around a lot less than one that is uninformed about how much power they actually have. I've had them ask to search my vehicle with no probable cause ( usually after I've gotten lippy with them). I've told them no thanks, we'll just wait for a warrant or they can go ahead and perform an unlawful search and I'll be happy to see them in court for it later. That really torks them off. They hate coming across someone that knows what they can actually get away with. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a cop hater by any means. Generally if I'm pulled over it's because I'm speeding or doing something to deserve it and I'll take my ticket and be on my merry way. But I've come across several cops in Lawrence that are just hateful, arrogant pricks that think because some bureauctratic bonehead issued them a gun and a club they should run about town wielding them as they please.

bankboy119 7 years, 9 months ago

Well known family? I had no idea who Bob Billings was until the changed the road to his name(which was a ridiculous idea anyways) and I've lived here all my life! Yeah sorry and the families that I know who are supposedly "well known" I've gone to school with their kids....there probably was a good reason to check then with the records 1/2 of them have....just like the rest of the town.

Topside 7 years, 9 months ago

I know my views probably won't be the most popular. And I have to confess that I don't live in Lawrence and have never been stopped by the Lawrence PD.
Yes Craigers protecting your own is bad if its illegal activity!

Consumer1-Don't tell me what my opinions are and don't tell me what to think! You havn't been where I have been or seen what I have. I doubt you have ever been called by you crying baby sister only to arrive and find her with a huge black eye given to her by her boyfriend. THen do my citizen duty and call the cops only to have them arrive with the evidence plain on my sisters face, who was ready to press charges, only to have the police tell us they would NOT be arresting him! WTF?!?! THe explantion was a doozie too. I can't even remember it all, something about jail space or it being the 3rd thursday of the month. Now, had I gone down the street and beaten the Piece of S___ within an inch of his life, do you think I would have been arrested? Yes, why because I have financial means to pay the fines and bail that would be levied against me. A jobless nineteen year old does not. I got other situations too, but I won't share them I've said too much already. So Consumer1 can check himself. I'm not saying all cops are bad, just everyone I have dealt with. Until I or my family will ever be treated with courtesy or respect by a police officer I will not change. I will not donate to any funds or charity balls either. However I am glad the Lawrence PD is nice for all of you. Consider yourselves lucky to live in such a nice, polished, upscale town with a nice police force. YOu are in the minority.

acg 7 years, 9 months ago

She could have had a car full of pot? Why because she was a young person on the street at 12:30 at night, she automatically has drugs, is in trouble or needs some nosy cop to give her the 3rd degree? This is a crazy thought, so really let it sink in, maybe she was just driving down the street and didn't need that cop to annoy, harass or question her. Maybe, just maybe, she wasn't doing anything wrong at all other than a little speeding. Nooo, that never happens, right OTTR? Everyone the cops pull over has drugs, guns, warrants or an ax murderer hiding in the backseat, right?

Topside 7 years, 9 months ago

Consumer1-you are right I am a hate monger. I hate it when cops don't do their jobs and protect citizens and arrest "bad guys". You need to step back and look in the mirror at yourself. You are way to quick to lump everyone together as hate mongers that disagrees with you before you even ask why.

italianprincess 7 years, 9 months ago

A bit confused here........

No I don't think that was a normal procedure the way he handled pulling her over. I read into what your posted all wrong.

People should be treated the same no matter what family they are from. You got me all wrong here. I was just mentioning that shes a good kid from a good family. Not some smart @$$ kid who gets into trouble all the time.

My son gets pulled over alot and it pisses him off. He feels its because hes biracial. He got pulled over for running a red light when the light was blinking yellow. The officer turned around, looked and said........Oh. Hes gotten pulled over for the blue underground lights under his car ( which are legal ) and was given a ticket. He came home looked up the law online, printed it off and took it down the next day and they had to dismiss it completely. I have a great kid and he doesn't cause problems. He drives a nice car which he has fixed up himself. He gets good grades in school, works at a bank after his 4 period day, then works his second job after that when he can. Hes also involved in sports in the Spring and Fall. The police know him around here by now because of his car I'm sure, but they still pull him over for this and that when hes done nothing wrong.

What I was saying is that the officer treated her as if he was trying to get a date. He asked questions that were none of his buisness. Wrong approach by this young officer and maybe he should go back to the academy.

italianprincess 7 years, 9 months ago

OTTR,

My son got a ticket for what they call a J-Turn now on Mass. That was awhile back and yes he paid that ticket.

Its the way this officer handled procedure when he pulled her over. To many unrelated questions were asked I feel that were none of his buisness.

Speeding ticket= you are speeding, you get a ticket not a numbers of questions on where you live and whats your phone number.

craigers 7 years, 9 months ago

protecting your own against illegal activity goes without saying. However, they have to look out for each other when you get vigalanties that think they should be the cops boss because they pay their taxes which inadvertantly pays their paychecks.

Topside 7 years, 9 months ago

Craigers I have no idea why we are arguing then. I thnk we basically agree.

bankboy119 7 years, 9 months ago

Hooray for arguing! Well since we're not getting anywhere let's change the subject.

Anyone else ready for the rain to end?

Topside 7 years, 9 months ago

No I love it when it rains. Just like the arguing it will never stop.

italianprincess 7 years, 9 months ago

I'm sure he did make that call to back up her story on who whos granddaughter she was . She of course proved herself right, but he woke up her grandfather at 12:30 am as if she was lying and that I feel was wrong.

You want to hear another one, give me until my lunch break to type it out. This one might just make you think some of the officers should go back to the academy for more training.

italianprincess 7 years, 9 months ago

The story about my son's g/f is true. I have no reason to lie.

craigers 7 years, 9 months ago

I don't know why we are arguing either. Anybody that does illegal duty needs to get busted and busted hard. Especially that old b/f of your babysitter. I can understand how frustrating that can be. Sorry, my bad, I appologize for arguing.

Gootsie 7 years, 9 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

consumer1 7 years, 9 months ago

Papa-smurf, you make many good points. I meant no personal harm to you. You are correct we must be vigilant to prevent what is happening in other cities from happening here. But, we also must not be too quick to set ourselves up for failure. Thanks for your follow up. Again, I meant you no disrespect. One of the ill effects of citizen intervention in police matters is clearly seen with the weaponry officer are mandated to arm themselves with. Clearly, officers go into dangerous situation under armed. The dangerous offender has NO RESTRICTIONS on the type, size, or lethality of the weapon they use. Cops are severely limited by public opinion and as a consequense are often out-gunned. This should be a concern to all citizen's when the people we pay to protect us are shackled by public opinion preventing them from doing their jobs (of protecting us). Gangs and gang warfare is getting closer to our little glass bubble every day. This is not fantasy this is the truth. We will see more shooting, drive by shooting, and armed robbery within a few years. Crime in Lawrence in going to increase. To stifle the ability of the police to do their jobs with interventions by citizens who really have no idea what is happening in the real world scares me.

Topside. And you have no idea what I do or what I have been through. (peersonally and professionally) I am sorry for your sister, and all those who have be hurt by offenders. Howvever, A cop can't administer justice based on your unhappiness, or need for vengeance. Everyone who works in law enforcement has families and have had those they love affected by crime. As much as they might want to they are more restricted than the average citizen to reveal their true desires. Again, I am sorry about those who have been hurt who are close to you. So, when you tell me I don't have any experience or personal knowledge about being put off, by a system that appears to not work, it simply is not true. I won't / can't give details because there is no benefit. I will say this. I deal with the scum you are talking about on a dailey basis. I have to abide by what the laws say, (as do we all).

italianprincess 7 years, 9 months ago

I'm not going to telling you who her grandfather is. Shes a good young lady and didn't deserve the personal questions he was asking her.

I guess this one officer didn't believe her and made that 12:30 am phone waking up her grandfather to see if she was lying. Sorry officer sir........she wasn't lying to you.

My son does get pulled over alot= running a blinking yellow light- officer said it was red until he turned around. Please, made him look foolish and there was no ticket given. Yes, he does feel he gets harrassed for the color of his skin at times. Hes been pulled over on other occasions also and hasn't recieved a ticket.

Why would they pull you over if theres no reason other then one they can make up?

smitty 7 years, 9 months ago

Citizens review panel needs enforcement powers to be effective. Take for instance the situation where Olin and Wildgen tried to get Officer Martin reinstated to the LPD after a felony conviction of domestic violence against Martin's daughter. State law says that a felon can not carry a gun so in the end Martin was not allowed to return to the ranks of officer but certainly not because Olin and Wildgen didn't try. If someone had not put a check on Olin and Wildgen they would have been able to circumvent the law. That one made the news and was corrected but I know many others do not and fly under the political radar.

Or how about the effect that an independent review might have had on the drunk driving and traffic accident of Todd Poulson. Poulson was taken home by an officer after the accident without a breathilizer test having been administered. Poulson then was allowed by the accompanying officer to partake in some alcohol to "calm Poulson's nerves". Then the test was administered. The city judge had no choice but to find him not guilty of the charges that ended him in city court from that accident. No one held the LPD responsible for allowing this stategic cover up of Poulson's drunken traffic accident. Poulson did do desk duty for a period of time following that incident. An independent review was needed on this without the control of Olin.

Interesting fact in Poulson's history. At the time of Gregg Sevier's death Poulson was with the KHP and was the law enforcement agent(in the autopsy records) that handed the bag of evidence collected at the death scene to coroner Carol Moddrell upon her delayed arrival. A short time later Poulson joined the LPD.

It was Bordman that was the accompaning officer and the lpd officer that testified before the city judge about the administration of the breathilizer test after allowing Pouson to imbibe. Bordman was admonished for his outburst after the not guilty verdict was reached in that drunkden traffic accident case.

Exposure of police abuse of power problems without enforcement capabilities is almost worthless with a chief that is experienced in cover ups for his force. Take care of your police force but don't make them above the law. An adequatly empowered review process will help bring Olin's tactics into check.

Topside 7 years, 9 months ago

Based on my unhappiness/Vengence? Are you kidding me?! Is it illegal or not to physically assault a person with your fists? More importantly is it, or isn't it illegal to hit/abuse/assault a woman?
This has nothing to do with a disagreement or personnal vendetta. The innocent is this case was not protected and the offender was not brought to justice! If I come over to your house and besat your face in, and you report it to the authorities. I bet I'd be riding in the back seat of a police car PDQ.
The point is if they are there to protect and serve than it should be done so without exception.

smitty 7 years, 9 months ago

Topside, how do you see a review process working in the case of your sister? What needs to be in place to satisfy your concerns?

Spoken1 7 years, 9 months ago

sorry craigers, we are the boss of the cops, they are public servants

Topside 7 years, 9 months ago

I don't know I had never thought of a review process until today and so far I admittedly have been to busy arguing to think about one. But, lets all come back down and think about what smitty has asked. Instead of pro or con police, lets actually try and come up with a solution. Once again a man named smitty has shown us the way. I will have to think about an actual review board, though. What will be the set up? Will it be like a supreme court thing where I send in a notice/appeal/complaint and the panel takes those cases to the Police Dept. for further review? That is OK and then based on further review a discipline of the officer and arrest of offender. That sounds good.
The actual review board system is seeming to be a complex thing. I need everyone elses help to think it up. I would like to know then how it would be handled on the Dept. side. I would like to see actual action/corrections take place from the PD so it isn't just a formal "bitching committee".

Hong_Kong_Phooey 7 years, 9 months ago

IP: Actually, if the officer that pulled over your son's girlfriend thought that she was doing something illegal (just b/c you get pulled over for one thing, it doesn't mean that's the only thing they suspect) he has every right to ask investigative questions.

Topside: You need to try putting yourself in their shoes. You have to remember that they don't know what they are going to be dealing with when they walk up to your window. Do you think that only "good" people are out driving cars?

As for the question of the day, I don't think a citizen review board would be a good idea. The public has no idea what it is like to be a cop, myself included. Just because you've watched a few episodes of 'COPS' it doesn't mean you know. They deal with people in emotional states that most of us can't imagine. Their daily life is spent putting their lives on the line to help out people that they've never met. Half the time the people that called them turn on them when they realize that somebody is going to jail. Many of the people that whine about police brutality are the same ones that start mouthing off and actin' the fool when the police show up and end up having to restrain them.

Hong_Kong_Phooey 7 years, 9 months ago

So Smitty, you don't think that the police have a right to consult with their attorneys before writing a report of the incident (which is basically a written confession of everything that occurs during ANY incident)?

Hong_Kong_Phooey 7 years, 9 months ago

IP: The blue lights on your son's car are legal - as long as you can't see the actual light bulb's. Second, I obviously don't know all of the circumstances surrounding your son being pulled over, but if his car is as "pimped out" as you say it is, then he probably has tinted windows. How many times have you been driving behind a car with tinted windows and were able to determine the race of the driver? How about at night? Maybe your son's getting pulled over because, surprise, he's breaking the law! I'm not saying your son is a bad kid, maybe he's just a bad driver.

craigers 7 years, 9 months ago

The portion of your taxes that actually pay that officer's salary would be so small that you would be a small contributor to that officer's paycheck. Therefore you should have as much control over that officer in relation to your contribution. This would resemble voting rights in common stock. So Spoken1, your vote and right to be the cops boss doesn't have much clout. They are not servants and citizens that have no idea about the law shouldn't tell PD how to conduct their jobs. I wouldn't tell a lawyer how to handle a case in court, because I am not a lawyer. Spoken1 do you get angry when a cop busts you for speeding or any other traffic violation?

Spoken1 7 years, 9 months ago

craigers, that is like saying that since a small portion of my taxes goes to the schools that I shouldn't have any say about them either. And besides, I wasn't stating that I should have ultimate power over the police, I was saying the community should, and since it is the taxes of the community that pays the salaries of the police, then the community should have a say in how the department is run. I believe that all aspects of government should be monitored by the people that pay their salaries. To protect and serve, means they are public servants, so where do you get that they are not? Who do they work for? The public. I don't get angry if I get in trouble for doing something against the law, but that isn't the issue. The issue is to keep the police in the same system of checks and balances the rest of us are in, they are NOT above the law, and they are just as liable to answer the community when they have exceeded the limits of the law.

italianprincess 7 years, 9 months ago

HKP,

Hes not a bad driver, but has been given his share of tickets. Hes a good kid, but has his moments just like any other teenager does. I think hes just getting tired of getting pulled over ( the last 3 times ) and no ticket was given. Its starting to bother him like I believe it would bother anyone else.

His car is noticable...tinted windows included. Hes taken pride in the work he has done to it. It certainly doesn't look like it did when it belonged to me. He went to a car show in KC not to long ago, and now he has sponsers sending him things in the mail for this and that.

I gave him the car, but I also told him that he will pay his own ins, tickets, tags and reg, gas etc.

Topside 7 years, 9 months ago

Hong_Kong_Phooey, Hey man that was like 7 hours ago. Plus, I want to give you a big DUh! I know that. But there is a way thes guys can profile without profiling. If you pull me over in a 3-piece suit in my explorer there is a difference than two people (out numbered) in an 86 olds cutlass on dubs with a rust colored door.
If not, I would think that after a brief conversation with the officer he/she would be able to tell I'm just a common lead foot an dnot some felon on the loose. However, most people, myself included don't like the thrid degree from start to finish. I am glad they are cautious, I would be too. But, once the situation is addressed they could lighten up. Wouldn't you agree.

I don't mean to offend any Olds Cutlass Drivers out there, but where I come from that was the car of choice for drug dealers and gagstas. That, and whatever the buick equivalent was.

mightyquin 7 years, 9 months ago

craigers - the police ARE servants, "public servants" doesnt it say on the patrol cars "to protect and to serve". Also, while it is true that any single persons contribution to an officers paycheck is miniscule, we as a community make up the entire check of said officer so we are all his "boss". Having said all that I am not sure a review board is needed or even in the best interest of the community. I have had several dealings over the years with the LPD for various things good and bad and I can say overall they are an extremely professional and courteous group. However, on the one occasion where I felt the officer I was dealing with was not being even a little professional or courteous, I reported his butt and he was reprimanded and eventually fired because I was not the only one to complain about him. So unless a reviwe board can add something really significant and benificial, it would be a waste of time and energy and just one more thing for our fine police force to deal with.

Ceallach 7 years, 9 months ago

1st Topic of the day: I'm very hesitant to say I would support a "citizens" review board. If there is not a police presence (member) on the board, there could be a lot of jumping to conclusions -- determined by citizens who have never been involved in situations where police officers have been wounded or killed in the past. The fact that my family has strong law enforcement ties does not make me against a board of some sort. In fact, it makes me more aware of the need for the departments to take extra measures when "policing" their fellow officers. A mixed board would be more successful, IMHO. Considering the very mixed approval/disapproval of the City Commission's decisions about everything else -- how in the world could they be put in charge of disciplining the PD?

2nd Topic: IP, I understand your concern regarding your son and what could very well be racial profiling. My oldest granddaughter, also bi-racial, was recently stopped and told that she must have the tinting changed on her car windows. She tried to explain that she had just bought the car (to go back and forth to her college in KC) from (a local dealer) , and was assurred the tinting was within legal requirements. It was mid-afternoon, she was not speeding or in any way intentionally breaking the law. When he checked her tags and license he discovered that she had never had a ticket or a violation of any sort. Yet she was still given a ticket and sent on her way. Whether or not the officer was profiling her we will never know, but as a bi-racial person she has endured a lot of racism and her self esteem took another hit when this happened. [I need to add that this happened on her way to school, it was the Olathe PD and not the LPD, but the situations are not dissimilar.]

3rd Topic: This is not an attack -- it is a question because I am not sure I remember correctly. In the Greg Sevier case, didn't the parents call the police because their son was in a room with a knife and they were afraid he would kill himself and when the police arrived he charged them with the knife? If I am remembering wrong, please let me know (as if you all wouldn't :). I was under the impression that perhaps the young man had indeed committed "suicide by police action."

Hong_Kong_Phooey 7 years, 9 months ago

Topside: That has got to one of the most ridiculous things I've heard you say on here. You don't think that a guy in 3-piece suit could be transporting drugs? In a gigantic SUV for that matter? Man, you gotta try thinking outside the box. 80 year old women have been found transporting large quantities of drugs, so basically, anybody is a suspect. Do you know how many cops have been shot AFTER they made contact with the driver of the car they pulled over. Caution is only effective if you maintain it.

Topside 7 years, 9 months ago

Damn man you totally didn't get it. Yes, I know that. I'm sorry its my fault for not explaining it a little more clearly. Yes people in SUVs can transport drugs. Yes Old people transport drugs or could be terrorists. I'm simply stating what is MORE likely. That an 87 year old couple has drugs in their car or (sorry IP) two youths in a car that is "pimp'd out". That was my ONLY point. If cops didn't profile a little bit they would rarely catch anyone with drugs. A small secondary point would be that once the cop took a look at a person and saw they were basically a decent citizen they could lay off the dragnet routine.

Topside 7 years, 9 months ago

BTW-I'm wearing a suit and listening to Cypress Hill at my desk. So I'm totally crossed up.

mightyquin 7 years, 9 months ago

So Topside, you can tell a decent citizen just by looking at them?

italianprincess 7 years, 9 months ago

Okay.......not originally from here ( from Cali ), so whats grain alcohol?

I guess the kids these days used the term " pimped out " to describe their cars. His car is noticable yes, for sure now that he got it painted. Its not an import, but looks great.

I have never smelled pot or alcohol on him so not sure if hes doing that. He may doing some partying with friends, but we have a pretty good relationship and we talk alot.

A parent can only hope their children make right decisions when it comes to experiencing teenage life.

Ceallach 7 years, 9 months ago

IP: Ohhh, soooo, only imports can be expected to look great? That's pretty un-American!!! (Couldn't resist, what with the confrontational mood of the board today :)

craigers 7 years, 9 months ago

Like I have said before, the people I am saying shouldn't have the right on a committee like this are the ones that are angry at the cops for some reason or if they are on a power trip. I am saying that too many people base the fact that they pay their taxes, which means they can be indignant to those that are serving them. A committee not on a power trip should be the ones reviewing the way the police does their business. Mightyquin, you went about the complaint in the right way. You obviously are not like the ones I have mentioned above.

Spoken1, your comment about the schools is very true, however like the people above I have singled out for being power hungry shouldn't. Yes we should have a say in the way things are done in schools and other jobs in the public sector, but we do need to be careful of people that just want to be in charge, that is all.

italianprincess 7 years, 9 months ago

LOL.......... No not at all. Hes drives an American made care and it looks great. I was referring to the movie " Fast and Furious "

You know most of those cars if not all are imports. I guess you could say he didn't have a choice in his car since it was given to him.................FREE.

LOL

Topside 7 years, 9 months ago

mightyquinn- I hope you saw my above post since I saw we posted about the same time. and I hope that clarified it for you. Man, most of you people need to simmer down a notch, some of you take things much to literally. I would like to be in a foxhole with some of you, though, because you can definitely jump on a grenade faster than most.

smitty 7 years, 9 months ago

Topside, it is a complicated matter, further complicated with trying to keep on subject. It has been my experience that this is one subject that goes south fast. Generally speaking there is a period of venting before we can settle into productive discourse. You may be interseted in an organization called SABLE-spouse abuse by law enforcement. Difficult for an abusive officer to arrest an abuser if it echos their own family dynamics. Google it and read up. There is quite a bit on the stress of policing and the psychological problems created thru policing. Google that under several stress/police phrases. Some detailed and valid information out there.

HKP, of course police can consult with their attorneys. However there is a resposibility to write their reports first and without consultation with each other, let alone their attorney.

BTW, Bordman never did write his report(that info is in the offical records). If you were to study the police reports and the inquest transcript you will find that the dispatch transcript was also completed before those officers filed their official reports. Appearances are the making of a cover up of events whether or not the cover up existed. Then you will find a variancy in some of the statements by the officers from their filed reports when compared to their inquest testimonies. I don't know if that was justifiable homicide or not. There are enough questions over discrepancies to warrant further investigations. A review board could be an answer.

I believe the majority of the problems lie with the management, training, and power politics from Olin, not the street officers and the lack of accountablity that Olin has to the city manager and the commission. The officers are doing what they have been trained and that which the chief's policies have them do. There is layer of administrative officers that do the chief's bidding too. But the street officers are the least of the problems. They generally catch the flack for policies and procedures of Olin.

mightyquin 7 years, 9 months ago

Topside - My post was just for the line in your post "once the cop took a look at a person and saw they were basically a decent citizen". I was only wondering how you could tell a citizen was "decent" just by looking. I dont think it is possible which is why officers have to ask questions. Folks who are "decent citizens" which I define in this case as having done nothing wrong and are not hiding anything, will be able to answer without stuttering ot mumbling and looking away. While someone who is guilty of something will have trouble and will often lie and give themselves away. Officers are trained to ask questions and to look for signs that a person is being less than truthfull.

italianprincess 7 years, 9 months ago

TOB,

I didn't think at all you meant my son. I just didn't know what grain alcohol was. Things are different here and believe me when I say I have learned a few words since moving here. Just look.......I learned another new one today..........LOL

Ceallach 7 years, 9 months ago

I disagree about the attorneys. Since cases such as this are obviously going to be high profile, which means other lawyers will be sifting that officers words like fine flour, they should be allowed counsel to be sure their statements cannot be used to condemn them just because of their wording when describing an incident. This board is more than ample evidence of what can happen to a post made hastily and then dissected and put back together to say something altogether different than the poster intended.

Topside 7 years, 9 months ago

Thanks Smitty you are right on all counts. This went south fast. It doesn't look like anyone else will chip in either. Also, thanks for the info, but this situation happened like 3 years ago and everyone is basicallly over it. We just don't harbor much love for the local police.

I will give props, however to the Highway Patrol. I have been helped by them on a couple of occasions. Also, they are the ones who catch the majority of the big drug smugglers. Local PD hassle kids with dime bags while Hi-Po are the ones who find semis full of dope or (unfortunately) smuggling illegal aliens. Think of what a crappy day that is for those Texas troopers who have found those semis full of dead people that were trying to cross over, yikes.

Topside 7 years, 9 months ago

Sorry mightyquinn I didn't know you worked for Bill Clinton. ala " tell me what the definition of is" is.
What a joke. Think about it for a minute before you reply. I meant a decent citizen-or would upstanding-be better as a person who does right and never intentionally breaks laws except perhaps an occasional parking or speeding ticket. Even once convicted felons can be decent/upstanding citizens. My father is a good example he did time it Leavenworth back in the day, but retired from an upper management job in a gov. agency.
Is that good enough or do we have to really get nuts.

Topside 7 years, 9 months ago

Smitty why do they even bother asking these questions? Nobody wants to actually help come up with a solution they just want to bitch. Today is a great example.

smitty 7 years, 9 months ago

ceallach. Sevier was in his room with a butcher knife taken from the kitchen after having been out with his father, drinking and playing pool. The parents called dispatch and requested an officer come and talk to him. The dispatcher did a good job in asking if there was any arguing to which the mother replied no.

Upon arriving at the scene Bordman reported to dispatch a10-23?(arrived at scene) then made a visual observation of the parents in the front yard. There was no exchange of information, no converstion at all when Bordman immediately(in the records) called dispatch requesting the code for emergency-hold all broadcasts on that frequency. The parents were easily visually identifiable as indians.

If you recall there had been 5 native deaths in the previous two years. All unsolved cases. The native community was fearful of a serial killer. That pov was reported in the Wall Street Journal by Anne Hagendorn ?sp. The lpd had published an article in the Kansas police magizine that the only serial in the deaths was the cereal malt liquor. Racism out crys by Lawrence galore!!

This was the atmosphere when Bordman arrived that night.

Bordman further entered the house without any questioning other than how to unlock the bedroom door where young Mr. Sevier sat on his bed with the music blaring and holding the butcher knife. By the time a back up officer arrived Bordman had his gun pulled and was shouting at Sevier. Jim Phillips, the second officer, did the correct thing and backed up Bordman and pulled his gun.

The police claimed Gregg charged Bordman. Six shots were fired, three from each officer. Gregg died immediately.

Gregg's blood alcohol was over .2 and near an official stupor level. His body was in the hallway, having not moved but inches from where his so called charge started. What appears to have happened is Gregg drunkenly stumbled and the tension of the situation made the officers fire. The police have laid claim to suicide by police. I don't believe it.

That's when Olin was called to the scene and what gives all appearances of a cover up was formulated.

mightyquin 7 years, 9 months ago

Solution? For what problem? The question was should a citizens review board be formed. I ask why? What problem/s would it help to correct? Is there a need? I dont believe there is a need because I fell there are means available for those who havew grievances with the LPD. There, short sweet and no bitching.

smitty 7 years, 9 months ago

ceallach, in disagreemnet about when to confer with an attorney has less to do with what either of us thinks is correct. It is to do with what is the official policy and procedure called out for the police. The procedures in place were not followed regardless of our opinions. The procedures not being followed is reason enough for action by a citizens review board and why the board needs enforcement powers.

Ceallach 7 years, 9 months ago

smitty: thanks for the summary. I do remember the series of deaths now and the concern about a serial offender. Earlier I thought someone said it was 3 years ago, I thought this happened much farther back than that. What was the year?

Topside 7 years, 9 months ago

See mighty quinn was that so hard. I think that is where smitty and I and Noonwe else was seemingly headed anyway. I feel there is a need for a review board, but I don't think it could ever be implemented in a way that would do any good for the public. I think once any complaints reached the dept. they would smile and nod and then when the meeting was over, so would be the caring aobut the complaints.

Hong_Kong_Phooey 7 years, 9 months ago

Smitty: You are a conspiracy theorist. Of course Olin was going to come out to the scene of an officer involved shooting! Furthermore, I love how you have appointed yourself as the appraiser of correct police procedures because you've done some google searches. A search of your previous posts would just lead one to believe that you have a personal vendetta against Officer Bordman and will take any opportunity to try and accuse him of something, anything that might be construed as being "shady".

smitty 7 years, 9 months ago

April 21, 1991.

Topside 7 years, 9 months ago

TOB-What the hell is that song about anyway? Is it metaphorical or did I fall asleep in history class or was there and actual historical figure? Who performed that song was it Paul Revere and the Raiders? Also, I remember a movie aoubt 10-15 yrs ago called the Mighty Quinn it was about Jamaican gangters or something.

Ceallach 7 years, 9 months ago

14 years, I really didn't think it was that long ago. No wonder my memory was a bit hazy, half the time I can't remember last week! Which actually works out quite well at times. Keeps me from dwelling on things :)

nlf78 7 years, 9 months ago

That's definitely more than 3 years ago.

I think a citizen review board is a good idea. I've never had any problems with the police or their procedures personally, but it'd be nice to have a check/balance system out there.

acg 7 years, 9 months ago

Exactly what are the means available to someone who has a grievance with a cop on the LPD? Let's see, when my best friend's ex husband, a Lawrence cop, smacked around her 6 year old daughter from a previous marriage and she called his supervisor they made him take a 2 hour anger management course. 6 months later when the psycho attacked her with a butcher knife and she called the police the two that showed up at her door tried to convince her that she was overreacting and asked if it was worth ruining his career to press charges. They insinuated that maybe she should just leave town so as to avoid any further problems in the marriage. Who do we complain to now when the cops act up? Cops? They're going to cover each other's butts because that's what they do best.

Ceallach 7 years, 9 months ago

How does everyone like the added (anonymous) -- as though that was not the whole point -- being able to freely speak your mind!

Is anonymous a bad thing?

BAN identification!

Ceallach 7 years, 9 months ago

TOB: some Bob Dylan rambling? Smile when you say that!

beatrice 7 years, 9 months ago

Topside: Clinton might not have known the definition of "is" when it came to his lame attempt at explaining an affair outside his marriage. Not a single person died.

President Bush doesn't know the definition of "Mission Accomplished," thus we are still at war. Now we are nearing 2000 dead Americans, and the number will continue to rise.

Which is worse?

As we should with our federal government, we should also ask questions of our local government, including police officers -- most of whom I believe do an upstanding job for the citizens of Lawrence!

bankboy119 7 years, 9 months ago

2000 dead Americans really is not that much. If you look at history that actually is an incredibly low number. That's not to say each and every one is not important but people try to make the numbers seem a lot worse than they really are.

I have a friend who went over there, got shot in the head and came back, lived to tell about it. He says he doesn't even watch the news because the coverage is ridiculous. Instead of complaining about what's going on why don't you show some support and be grateful NY didn't get a nuke and we have 2 million dead Americans.

Ceallach 7 years, 9 months ago

TOB: That would be no fun at all :):)

I guess it's like a self-help group. We will be Posters Anonymous!

(Before someone gets bent out of shape, I am not making fun of such organizations. I happen to think AA provides a very worthwhile and necessary service. People helping people.)

smitty 7 years, 9 months ago

HKP. love how you have appointed yourself as the appraiser of correct police procedures because you've done some google searches.. I used/quoted autopsy, inquest, lpd police reports as the source of my statements. My only google comments were specific to domestic violence concerns for topside and the psychological damage caused by the stress of the job. Just why is this such an emotionally unsettling topic for you?

My statements bring into question Olin more than Bordman. Of course Olin was called to the scene. Olin then called then DA Jim Flory to the scene. The law called for ( ks statutes in place at the time of the death) the coroner to be called immediately to investigate the death but Olin failed to call then Coroner Carol Moddrell for well over two hours.

The autopsy was not done by Moddrell but by an out of state medical examiner, Kris Sperry. The autopsy diagram showing the paths of the bullets was drawn by Carol Moddrell. The diagram is the only autopsy evidence that the inquest jury viewed.

One bullet path was described by Sperry as entering the 5th right intercostal, grazing the right anterior lobe of the liver, passing thru the hepatic flexure and stopping in the perineal cavity. The path described is a line from the fifth rib under the armpit traveling at a sharp downward angle before passing thru the large colon's bend just located directly under the liver. However Moddrell drew the path on line from the 5th rib to the sterum just above the xiphoid. That is no ways near the hepatic flexure. That path is almost parallel to the floor of a standing human. Somewhere between 75 and 90 degree difference from the description by Sperry.

Another bullet path had the same 75 to 90 degree misrepresentation by Moddrell. That bullet entered the sternum at the 4th rib and stopped against the left, posterior 10th rib. Moddrell drew that path from the 4th rib at the sternum to the axilial (armpit).

Sperry was not available to testify about his own findings. He could not be questioned as why he did not complete his autopsy report by doing his own drawing. The DA didn't question Moddrell on why she drew the diagram instead of Sperry. Too many snafu's in too many areas not to question the findings in this death.

A citizen's review panel was needed then as it is still today. Too many obvious questions needed addressing.

The family settled in an out of court settledment. The citizens of Lawrence have not recieved any relief from this travesty. This case serves as an example for why a board with enforecement powers is needed.

Ceallach 7 years, 9 months ago

We're missing a lot of regular posters today.

Topside 7 years, 9 months ago

Whoa, Beatrice, rear it back a step. WHo said I loved Bush? Well, President Bush that is. I know how people misunderstand what I write.

Ceallach 7 years, 9 months ago

Hey there, omb! I was just wondering where you and our faithful others were today.

Gootsie 7 years, 9 months ago

Here's one.

Pertinere (pert-near')

bankboy119 7 years, 9 months ago

The Patriot Act should be defended! Not ONE person has had their privacy invaded because of the act. Even the ACLU and all their "greatness" hasn't been able to come up with some one who has been violated.

Ceallach 7 years, 9 months ago

TOB: the disclaimer is sincere. I was just joking around with the (anonymous) and did not want to offend someone unintentionally, especially since the offense levels are running high today.

wichita_reader 7 years, 9 months ago

Been reading all day, just not posting.

I believe a properly appointed citizen's review board with proper procedures would be a good idea.

Word to o_m_b's 4:29 post.

As to the "anonymous" link, it looks like the omnipotent davidryan has been at work.

bankboy119 7 years, 9 months ago

anonymous...hm...if you don't have the guts to stand by your post if some one knows it's you you shouldn't write anything in the first place.

Ceallach 7 years, 9 months ago

bankboy119: there is a safety factor involved when making posts anonymously. Re-read some of the past posts and you will understand why we don't necessarily want a traceable name connected with our comments. With (anonymous) we don't know whether or not the one we are (ahem) exchanging thoughts with might be the supervisor that controls our evaluation :):)

beatrice 7 years, 9 months ago

bankboy: You really do need a break. "2000 dead Americans really is not that much." ???? Are you kidding me? It makes me think of the saying, "With friends like this, who needs enemies?"

Topside: sorry if I jumped too harshly on your Clinton comment. My mistake. I didn't mean to hit you with friendly fire. : )

OTTR: Why do you keep writing that IP's kid has a "pimped out ride"? All she said is that he fixed it himself. Would the fact that she also mentioned that he is bi-racial have anything to do with your questionable choice of words?

bankboy119 7 years, 9 months ago

Ceallach you're right I never thought about it that way haha. That would be very bad indeed...

Beatrice, 2000 people is nothing, we lost almost 3 times that on 9/11. At least 618000 Americans died in the Civil War, and some experts say the toll reached 700000. 350 times what has died in Iraq

404,000 American Sodiers died in WWII. That's 202 times the amount that has died in Iraq!

Americans need to buck up and realize we don't live in a Utopia, we have people out there that want to kill us, and those people aren't afraid to go strap a bomb to themselves to do it.

There are soldiers out there who aren't afraid to put their wives, girlfriends, sisters and children in front of them while they stand behind them and fire at OUR soldiers. Have you seen Blackhawk Down beatrice? If not go watch it. My friend has seen the same scenario in Iraq. He was there and went back after getting shot. He's seen his comrades, his friends, blown up while trying to help an injured ememy who would rather blow himself and our soldier up than be taken prisoner. He's seen American's hung on a bridge burning because they were defending YOUR way of life and free speech.

smitty 7 years, 9 months ago

sharron5rs, Big Brother is on tv tonight...

badda bing... but seriously folks, we'll get back to the issue after all has had a dose of high blood pressure meds.

bankboy119 7 years, 9 months ago

Bob I was wrong about the anonymous thing. I didn't think through all of the implications of not being anonymous on here...especially with as strong of viewpoints as some of us have.

italianprincess 7 years, 9 months ago

OTTR,

The tickets that my son has recieved is for the folllowing:

5:30 am while parked across the street from our house more then 12 inches from the curb.

A speeding ticket for going 6 miles over the speed limit. He asked for it and he got it. Bummer for him for speeding. I'm not the tpye of mom that says.......poor baby....LOL

A ticket for the lights under his car that was dismissed because it wasn't illegal.

I'm sure there a couple more that I can't remember, but those were for minor things like a fix-it ticket.

It may be his so called " pimped out " ride as some of you have mentioned. It is flashy, and noticable, but its just a car and a car certainly doesn't have anything to do with the type of person driving it.

I called and talked to the LPD about 2 weeks ago about my son always getting pulled over. I didn't talk to Mr, Olin, but to another gentleman who works there. I told him about the 3 different times hes been pulled over and not been given a ticket. He looked up my son's DL and told me everything I needed to know. Dates, times and why they pulled him over. My son told me that one of the officers that pulled him said.........Well I see your car parked all over Lawrence. My son said, maybe its because I have two jobs and I work. Yes, he got smart with that officer, but I believe hes getting tired of being pulled all the time.

Like I said before.......I have a good kid. His grades are fantastic and he works two jobs. Four period day at school then off to the bank for his internship for his third year of accounting and marketing at school. After that hes off to his second job until around 10:00. He plays ball in the Spring and Fall and when he can he umpires for the younger age teams.

I'm very proud of him and getting tickets he DESERVES is fine. I get tired of hearing about the times he gets pulled for stupid reasons on their part.

Example: Officer....... " You ran that red light back there ".

My son......." You mean the ones thats flashing yellow?"

beatrice 7 years, 9 months ago

bankboy: Your friend isn't defending my freedoms. Yes, he has answered the call of his country, which is an honorable thing. However, the war in which he is serving is not about protecting Americans, and it should be questioned. If it were truly about protecting us, there would have been many weapons of mass destruction found (remember them?). Instead, it is about trying to establish American control over an oil-rich nation, pure and simple. Yes, Saddam was evil, but he is far from being the only evil ruler in the world. If it was about bringing freedom to people under harsh rule, we would have been helping clean up the mess in Sudan a long time ago, just one of many examples.

Now, my father, who fought the Japanese in WWII -- he was helping protect our freedoms. The Japanese attacked us. Iraq did not. You shouldn't compare the two wars.

Regarding your minimizing the deaths realized thus far (and if it makes you happy, there will be many more to come), I would like to see you tell a family member of even one of the dead in the war in Iraq that their loss is "nothing." And then do it again, and again, and again, ... until you reach the final person. Then tell me it is "nothing." Look past the numbers, and see the actual people who are no longer with us. And for what? Nearly 2000 dead is far too many. Period.

Also, your numbers are wrong. 6000 didn't die on 9-11, and they were killed by terrorists supported by the fanatics in control of Afghanistan. Remember Osama, the one behind the attacks? While we are busy in Iraq, he has remained at large. How does this protect us? That is where our might should be concentrated. (You see -- I'm not anti-America, I just question this war in Iraq.)

Finaly, yes, I have seen Black Hawk Down. What does Hollywood have to do with anything? (I also saw War of the Worlds, but I don't believe we were actually attacked by aliens. FYI - most movies are fiction.) If you feel people there would kill us in an instant even though we are fighting for them, don't you think maybe we should reconsider our tact? Maybe?

Oh, yes, cops are good people by and large.

Carmenilla 7 years, 9 months ago

I don't care to post on here so much anymore. Its just not any fun when people pick on eachother senselessly. I think IP is getting a taste of that....Its too bad really. We have so many fun people on here. But that don't make the trolls any nicer does it?

The only thing I wanted to respond to was a statement made by bankboy119.

Where oh where do you get your body count on 9-11? Everything I've read has the count at about 2750 give or take. If 2750 is 3x 2000 than I have some serious math issues. Otherwise, play nice folks...

beatrice 7 years, 9 months ago

IP: you should tell your son to take the bus from now on, because you are tired of defending him on this board. : )

He sounds like a great kid. Good for you.

Carmenilla 7 years, 9 months ago

Beatrice we seem to be on the same wavelength.

Also, your comment yesterday about the wonderful XTC song "Dear God" was greatly enjoyed. I love that song and wish more Christians could hear it.

And "Watching the Detectives" is my favorite Elvis song too!

bankboy119 7 years, 9 months ago

It was suppose to be about 3000. I didn't have the exact number and I typed a 6 instead of a 3...I should really proofread better.

And Black Hawk Down was the way my friend described the war over there, only with more helicopters. The terrorists, they hate us. They hate you whether you like it or not.

And Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11? Where do you get your news? Michael Moore?

"The 9/11 commission reported that bin Laden was willing to explore possibilities of cooperation with Iraq.

Bin Laden met with a senior Iraqi intelligence officer in the Sudan in 1994 or 1995.

Bin Laden sent out a number of feelers to Iraq offering cooperation.

In 1998, Iraq took the initiative and in support of bin Laden's fatwa against the U.S., two Al Qaeda members went to Iraq for meetings.

Same year and Iraqi delegation went to Afghanistan to meet with bin Laden.

More meetings in 1999 and Iraqi officials offered bin Laden a safe haven.

This is all from the 9/11 commission report, mind you.

And in late June 2004, a member of the commission said new information suggested a lieutenant colonel in Saddam's Fedayeen was a prominent member of Al Qaeda.

Not to mention that Zarqawi (search) was operating in Iraq well before the U.S. invasion.

In a post 9/11 world this kind of information isn't enough to knock off Saddam? In my world it is. But it is not if you're against regime change and against the war no matter what."

That was straight from the news by the way

beatrice 7 years, 9 months ago

bankboy: So you are in support of putting our energy into Iraq, because "bin Laden was willing to explore possibilities of cooperation with Iraq," he had people hold meetings there, etc... Even if you believe everything in the report (this is coming from the same intelligence people who told us about the WMDs, correct?), don't you think we should put our effort into getting the evil person who started this -- bin Laden?

But this is still beside the point. Each and every death is something, and I actually believe that your claim that 2000 dead Americans "is nothing" is anti-American. How do you think the troops would react to learn that there are Americans who feel that their deaths thus far "is nothing." How many before you finally say, "Well, that is something." Each and every death is tragic. Realize that.

By the way, if you are so gung ho for this war, why aren't you over there? If you were, I guarantee you would realize the true cost of each and every death.

italianprincess 7 years, 9 months ago

Ty Beatrice and Carmenilla and also Ceallach.

He is a good kid, I don't have much to worry about with him.

Now my little one who just turned eight this month is the one who may give me a run for my money. One can only hope he heads down the path his older brother is taking.

Have a great evening.........

Ceallach 7 years, 9 months ago

May the topic of the day Rest in Peace.

Until tomorrow ---------------

sunflower_sue 7 years, 9 months ago

Just doing my pre-beddy bye rounds and noticed the (anonymous) next to the names. Well DUH! Isn't that a bit redundant?

On the other hand, I called my brother (who lives in another city) yesterday and told him that the topic of the day was something that he might be really interested in. He read all the posts and I asked him if he could pick out me and our sister's pen names. Took him all of 2 seconds. Maybe if "anonymous" had been next to our names yesterday, it would have tripped him up. Hmmmmm!

sunflower_sue 7 years, 9 months ago

Dear David Ryan, I'd like a fun topic tomorrow. I've been a very good girl this year (mostly). Thanks, s_s

GreenEyedBlues 7 years, 9 months ago

No way! Down with peer accountability.

smitty 7 years, 9 months ago

Suggestions for ex-lpd to sit on the review board....

1...David Davis, the detective who stepped forward at the time of all the native deaths to say that racism existed openly in the lpd. This man was fired by Olin and reinstated through a law suit to another city department. He knows what's up and had the courage to state it.

2...retired lpd Don(Red Dog) Garner. He kisses a$$ at times but all in all a guy that will tell both sides of the story.

3...ex-lpd detective Peck that was fired by Olin after he got too close to judges, attorneys that were on a drug informants list.

Good nite sweethearts, goodnight!

papa_smurf 7 years, 9 months ago

The police only up hold the laws, thats their job. The job of creating laws is the special intrest groups and tons of money thrown at politicians by the LOBBISTS to sometimes make or keep idiotic nonsensical laws on the books that are in total disregard of public opinion for the benefits and monetary gain of large corperations. We need total disclosure of any and all money "soft" or otherwise listed and made public. The amounts, the corperation funding the lobbist and the politician or political party in which this money was given to. This will encourage the voters to decide who really is in charge of our government, the people or the special intrests and their powerful and tempting lobbists.

papa_smurf 7 years, 9 months ago

Which scenerio sounds safer?

At midnight on a young persons 21st birthday they-

A. Go to the bar with friends to "power Hour" and try to drink 21 shots of alcohol in their first legal sitting while their friends and fellow bar patrons cheer them on and set a bucket next to them for "when" the get sick", risk alcohol poisoning or choking to death on their own vomit.

or B. Having over some friends, smoking a couple joints, watching a movie or playing cards. Then having cake and ice cream at midnight ( a the side effect from smoking pot) and having a sleep over or a safe and sober cab or other person give rides home?

Spoken1 7 years, 9 months ago

craigers, I can get with you there. I do not believe people on a power trip should be on a review board for anything. And, I think that having a totally independant review board would be a bad thing as well. I would think that a board made of citizens and police working together would be the best policy as hopefully the natural bias on both sides would pull the commitee towards the middle, a fairer footing for all. Checks are no good without balances.

JacqueB 7 years, 9 months ago

Sure----there is nothing wrong with a little checks and balances. But-----that does not mean that the general public should have the right through this column to police the police. I think that the general public should not be allowed to judge or make valid recomendation about the specific day to day operations of Law Enforcement. If you take a look at some of the comments in the section about allowing alcohol in the student Union you will understand what I am saying.

Should the city create a citizen review board for the police department?

Asked at Massachusetts Street on August 25, 2005

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