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What is your reaction to the election of Pope Benedict XVI?

Asked at Borders, 700 N.H. on April 20, 2005

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Photo of Grant Clowers

“Too conservative. He would have been my last choice of all the cardinals. He will take the church in a very conservative direction.”

Photo of Caitlin Sanders

“I think that he is too old. They should have probably chosen someone younger, but I’m still very happy with the selection. All the candidates were wisely selected.”

Photo of Bob Apprill

“I would like to think that there would be a better choice and that being a Hitler Youth would disqualify one from becoming pope.”

Photo of Katie Serrone

“I think this new pope was a good choice. I think that electing an older pope was smart for not only Catholics, but for society in general. An older, more conservative pope will keep the church grounded after losing John Paul.”


Fangorn 10 years, 5 months ago

And being a car salesman should disqualify someone from being trusted. Mr. Appril apparently accepts what he is told without thinking except at the shallowest level just like one who swallows what he is fed without chewing.

Steady leadership is good for any organization. Radical change during a transition is usually destabilizing. I think the cardinals have been around long enough to know what they're doing. My two reactions were surprise that a choice was made so quickly and, to a lesser extent, surprise that another non-Italian European was selected.

lunacydetector 10 years, 5 months ago

It was a great selection. If liberal Catholics don't like the traditional Catholic doctrine then they have the wrong church and should look elsewhere. I thought an African pope would be selected but since Europe has gone the way of godless secularism it is good they selected a European. The Eurpeans need all the help they can get. It will reflect well for the United States, since we are on the same slippery slope, just a few years behind.

For the car salesman, it was mandatory for kids his age to belong to the hitler youth, so his implied discriminatory statement is misinformed and ignorant.

ms_canada 10 years, 5 months ago

Warning - long post. fangorn - count me in on that breakfast. Yummmmy. hi liberty - I sure do hope that I am not going to offend you. I am a persistant cuss. I don't know your background or your Bible knowledge. I have been a teacher of the Bible for 10+ years in my church. I am accustomed to researching. This is what I have found out about our friend Mary. There are two Marys that concern us here in this discussion We are agreed that one Mary is the sister of Lazarus and Martha and they live in Bethany, a village some 2 miles from Jerusalem. She is the one who annointed the feet of Jesus that we read about at John 12:3. The other is Mary Magdalene. Her name indicates that she was from Magdala (the meaning of the Greek word Magdalene is 'from Magdala) which is a small town on the west shore of the Sea of Galilee. Here are some scripture reference to her. Luke 8:2 "Mary (called Magdalene)" Matt.27:56 she was at the crucifixion Matt. 28:1 she went to the tomb with the other Mary Mark 15:40 she was at the crucifixion Mark 16:1 describes the other Mary as the mother of James Mark 16:9 the risen LORD appears to her 1st. John 20:1 called Mary of Magdala ( I use the NIV Bible) John 20:18 called Mary of Magdala read John 20:10 - 18 for the conversation with the risen LORD If you would read these passages I would be interested to learn what you conclude from them. Perhaps we will just have to agree to disagree. or maybe not. I will bid you goodnight. It is late here although not as late as in Kansas. I live one time zone to the west of you

lunacydetector 10 years, 5 months ago

itching, Does man exist to serve man, or to serve God? Progressives view dogma of any kind as a social nuisance or something to be dispensed with entirely. Catholics naturally hold dogma to be fundamental to an well-ordered society. Progressives (generally) view man as a servant of the state; Catholics view society as the servant of man. Progressives are primarily concerned with the advancement of the state --- Catholics with the salvation of the soul. Have things progressed or regressed? Just look at the modernity of the 20th Century, appropriately coined the 'culture of death.'

remember_username 10 years, 5 months ago

I think it will be considered controversial mostly in the U.S. and Europe where most of the liberal Catholics are found. For example in Germany the majority of Catholics polled did not approve of Cardinal Ratzinger as Pope. This was the reverse in Poland for the election of John Paul (#?). I have some concerns about his conservative leanings. He has dismissed theologians of liberal ideology from positions in Catholic education, and his public comments hint of a bit of a crackdown, but at 78 time will tell if he can make any real changes.

As for his youth; I hope the Lawrence Library will obtain a copy of his memoirs where he discusses his activities in Germany during the war and I will retract my statements from yesterdays board until I have a chance to read it. I am sure the Vatican properly vetted him so I doubt there is much to worry about. But it is still a shocking revelation to me.

Fangorn - In defense of yesterdays remarks. I am old enough to have had friends and experiences that maybe others here have not encountered. But when I read "Hitler youth" alarms bells go off in my head so loudly that reason is overridden and I leapt to the Nazi comment. It is a fascinating story for another time but it is in fact because of the Hitler youth that I am not a Christian. The irony I experienced yesterday was amazing.

Jay Bird 10 years, 5 months ago

I too think that the car salesman was off abit. But, since he wasn't a Hitler Youth, he MUST be right. I think it's bad enough that you have to be a man to be Pope. They Stoned to death the only woman pope. If she wouldn't have had a baby, they may have never known she was a woman.

As far as who the selected, I'm not Catholic, so I don't care. He does however get to cruise that rightous Popemobile. It's so SWEET.

lunacydetector 10 years, 5 months ago

happygolucky, surely you jest when you mention the fable regarding the woman pope. there was never a woman pope.

enochville 10 years, 5 months ago

I am not Catholic. I do think that it is absurd that mankind should be able to choose who they will receive direction from God from, even if it is only 100+ men who are believed to be holy who do the choosing. There is too much of politics in it, too much of mankind imposing their limited understanding and biases on a religion that purports to represent God's will. Abraham was not elected by a body of voters, nor was Moses, Isaiah, or Peter, James, or John. Therefore, they were independent of the attitudes of their times. They were chosen by God to reveal his Word to his children, not chosen by Man to represent Man's views to God. The Catholic church is not the church Christ established on the earth. Christ's church was taken from the earth when the Apostles died. Look at the fruits of the Catholic church over its history - it should be ashamed for claiming that it is Christ's church. And the Protestant churches had good intentions to reform what was wrong, but they have no authority from God to do what they do. No one ever got priesthood authority by reading scriptures. But, Christ's true church has been restored to the earth by those who have authority.

ms_canada 10 years, 5 months ago

liberty - I don't know if you will ever see this but here goes. I, like Ceallach, have been doing a lot of research which has confirmed what I have always believed concerning the identity of Mary Magdalene.
I reviewed the information on John, the Apostle, trying to determine why some believe, as you do, that he and Lazarus are the same person. John and his brother James, the sons of Zebedee and Salome were from Capernaum on the Sea of Galilee and they were fishermen. When Jesus called them into His service, they left their nets to follow Him. There is really not a lot of information about Lazarus but that he lived in Bethany, a village 2 miles east of Jerusalem, a village not on any body of water so he probably was not a fisherman. I have already, in a previous post, explained my understanding of Mary Magdalene. So I prefer, like Ceallach, to just leave it there. I think that we could not come to any agreement. Sorry, sir.

raven 10 years, 5 months ago

Enochville: Those are some harsh statements against the Catholic Church. Many people do look at their history and understand that the Catholic Church is run by man (as in mankind) and therefore it is not perfect. Man (mankind) is not perfect and therefore there will be some mistakes in its/our past. However, that does not take away from the basic teachings and beliefs of Catholics and the Church around the world. No one can expect it to have a perfect history, again man is not perfect and we are not meant to be. We do our best that includes holy men and women.

craigers 10 years, 5 months ago

I think the conservative choice is a good one. The thing that is scary is when in the article about the pope, the Reverend Murray said that a new Holy Father was chosen. Funny, I thought the Holy Father was God Himself. That is a problem with that faith, they call the pope Holy Father when in the bible it states not to call any other man the Father except for God.

CroCop 10 years, 5 months ago

Bob Apprill was very ignorant. The facts are, Ratzinger was conscripted into the Hitler Youth against his will just as every other German kid at the time. He also deserted in 1944. Pretty much ever Germand kid was forced into the Hitler Youth by 1941 which is when he was put in.

Christy_K 10 years, 5 months ago

My biggest disappointment is that they did not pick a minority pope. I really thought that perhaps the Catholic church was ready for leadership beyond Europe, but I guess not. That is what I think will really turn the Catholic church into a universal Church instead of just a white good ole boy network imposed by colonization.

As far as a conservative pope, I am not against that. Making radical changes in an organization that large should not be hastily or rashly made. However, I do feel that more liberal Catholics need to keep voicing for change. You should question why you believe what you do. Change can and should be made IF it is for the right reasons. Traditions are not always valid and many are based on archiac beliefs like white supremacy or male supremacy. What if Mary Magdalene was the love of Jesus's life and a true apostle? This would shake the very foundation of the male dominated church.

Dialogue for change needs to be based on a understanding of the Catholic faith and mutal respect. I am a firm believer that change must come from within. Patience, intelligent debate, persistance will eventually bring about change. Will the new pope do it? Probably not, but he could be paving the way for the next pope who will. Only time will tell. My advice to all Catholics like me, keep the faith, strengthen your faith base and remember that the failings of humans are not necessarily the failings of God.

enochville 10 years, 5 months ago

I acknowledge and understand that many people are doing the best they can and the best they know how. I also know that no one who has ever lived, save Jesus only, has ever lived perfectly. Unfortunately, clergy and lay people alike sin and make mistakes. We must learn to have patience with each other. However, God, whenever he has led his people through a prophet or apostle, has never allowed them to mislead his people. It is not part of the plan. If a true prophet or apostle were to attempt to lead Christ's people astray, he would be removed from his place and another would be appointed by God to take his place. This we can count on. It is important to God that his children have a place they can look to for guidance and direction, which they can count on to represent God's will. That is why he called prophets and apostles in the first place and canonized their words as scripture and gave them authority to administer the ordinances of salvation. Now a prophet may make minor mistakes in their own lives, but when they speak for God and lead his church there can be no error in the revelations. Else, God would not be leading his Church; man would be leading his own church.

CroCop 10 years, 5 months ago

First German pope in a long long time. In fact I'm not even sure if there ever was a German pope.

craigers 10 years, 5 months ago

Christy_K, make sure you do not make the story of the Davinci Code a fact. I know you posed it as a question, but that author is trying to smear Christianity with his story and people are buying it. Don't be led astray by these stories. Some say that they are good stories because they are getting people to think about God, but we don't want people's first ideas of God to be lies. I am not trying to personally attack you Christy, but all of us can not afford to just believe what we read in fiction.

Ceallach 10 years, 5 months ago

I am not sure about spiritually, but as children of LJW Comments, we have strayed. Really strayed. We have gone from what is our reaction to the new pope to what we think of Catholicism, Christianity and/or Reformed theology. BTW: yes, it would shake the very foundations of the Church.

My reaction to the question: It indicates that those called upon to guide the direction of the Catholic Church believe the current path is the correct path. Again, I am not Catholic, but it seems they can't win for losing in public opinion. The church is criticized if they follow modernism and criticized if they choose the path of traditionalism. Since modernism has been on a rollar coaster ride over the past few centuries I can understand the decision to proceed with the reforms already before them.

Newer does not mean truer.

jonas 10 years, 5 months ago

one-more-bob: funny, but I thought the same thing about the Bible.


bleeding_flower 10 years, 5 months ago

I completely agree with Fanghorn. The reason that the choose Pope Benedict XVI is because this is a time of transition. I think as a whole the college of cardinals want to move forward and take more liberal stands, but they know that it is going to be slow going. That is why the choose a pope that is 78 years old and will only last a couple of years. John Paul the II was such a prominent figure not just for Catholics, but for the whole world. They didn't want anyone taking that away from him.

About the DaVinci Code: That was a damn good book. But some people take it way to seriously, come on it is fiction.

bleeding_flower 10 years, 5 months ago

Has anyone read Dan Brown's Angles and Demons. That is significantly better than DaVinci Code. It is about the pope's chamberlin killing the pope so he could be pope.

ms_canada 10 years, 5 months ago

Come on now, guys. I don't really think that Christy_k was serious about Mary Magdalene. Were you, christy? I read Dan Brown's DaVinci Code and found it a fascinating read, but, please, anyone with a brain would not take it seriously. Think I will have to read Angels and Demons too. I was raised a Catholic but left as soon as I was able. It would be easy for me to charge ahead and do some bashing of that organization, but will not. I have had some bitter experiences with that church. I think it makes not a hill of beans worth of differance who they elected. As for the speed of the election. Not really when you think about it. John Paul was ailing for quite a while and really ill for some time, so the cardinals had plenty of time to think about and discuss a successor. consumer is so right - the Bible designates all who truly belong to Jesus Christ as saints. The appointment of the title to some individuals is purely a man made act. ceallach - you will find that we stray from the topic quite often. Sometimes it get pretty interesting. but sometimes knickers get a bit twisted. All in good fun, though.

Liberty 10 years, 5 months ago

It is an interesting study to say the least.

I do not believe that John is the same person as Lazarus. I was simply following what the book is telling us who the author is, as I use only the Bible as my supporting documentation. I still see no evidence of John being the author in the book (Gospel) and at best a very weak case. The Mary question is a weak case (I admit) and a sideline, but there is a great deal of scripture supporting this position as one finds that only one Mary performed this act to the Lord and Mary Magdalene is the only Mary mentioned after this happened that continued with the Lord and according to Biblical maps, they show the act occurring in Bethany. I don't really find this an efficient format to go into the subject in detail and step you through to better explain this Biblical position on this format, but the seed is planted for you to ponder if you wish to pursue it further on your own. But like Ceallach said, it doesn't change how we believe, but in my mind it does help one to better understand the end of the book of John to a greater degree or (Lazarus) as you can accept. I brought it up for your possible enrichment as it does not change our common saving belief in the Lord. I am pleased to have common faith/ground with you both in that most important respect and I have enjoyed the exchange of ideas. I encourage you to continue your studies as we learn much from time spent with the Lord. Thanks for letting me 'bend your ear' :-)

Ceallach 10 years, 5 months ago

ms_canada: Unfortunately I do not have direct knowledge of family still in Ireland. One brother has been tracing in his extra time to date no lucky Irish family has been found to welcome home my immediate clan.

liberty: Did I understand your post correctly, in addition to the Mary, Mary, issue -- you believe "the disciple whom Jesus loved" was Lazarus? Your statements are puzzling to me. You appear to be convinced the connections are logical conclusions but I do not find them to be logical at all. In fact, I find your circular formula to be confusing. If you have formed this opinion from other resources, please point me in their direction.

Christy_K 10 years, 5 months ago

Uhh... I've never read the DaVinci Code and had no idea those things were mentioned in it. I am refering to the discovery of her gnostic texts and of the biblical historical debate about her place in the church. I haven't read a fictional novel in a long time to be honest so where you all got that impression I have no idea.

There is a legitimate historical and theological debate on who she really was. See the below website as just an example.

Even the wildest fantasies can have a grain of truth. But my point is that many of the ideas that founded many ancient traditions are based on shaky foundations that may well be wrong. For example, no one would dare agree with medical knowledge from Christ's time since we have discovered so much more. Why should we take theological knowledge from Christ's time at face value. For example, the reason why the Catholic church supports male priests is because they are the next apostles (since they were all male they assumed you have to be male to be an apostle), but if there really were women apostle's then the Catholic church's agrument about women and the priesthood would be based on an imperfect foundation.

Fangorn 10 years, 5 months ago

r_u: I would be very interested to hear your story, if an appropriate occasion occurs in this forum or if circumstances ever allow us to meet in person. Your "alarm bells" are certainly understandable. If I had heard of the new Pope's Hilter Youth membership without the additional context (involuntary enrollment at age 14, etc.), I might have drawn the same conclusion. I don't think reason was overridden; you merely responded to the announcement based on the information you had at the time.

all: to comment on some brief remarks earlier about saints, the Greek word usually translated as "saint" is hagios (sorry, the Greek font doesn't work in this board). It is the noun form of the word "holy" or "set apart [by God]". It was used almost exclusively in the plural form (only one use of the singular form in the entire New Testament) to refer to the whole body of believers or to a local congregation ("to all the saints :at Colossae:" Colossians 1:2). The concept of a "saint" as someone honored and exalted by the church didn't develop until later. The concept of a "saint" as a player for a historically unsuccessful football team didn't occur until much later. ;-)~

Liberty 10 years, 5 months ago

I think upon reading the 11th chapter of the 'gospel of John', you will see that Mary Magdalene was the sister of Lazarus, the one that was brought back to life by Jesus after being dead for 3 days. And Lazarus was that disciple whom Jesus loved. (Cared for deeply). And since "the disciple that Jesus loved" was the author of the book; It stands to reason that Lazarus was the disciple that wrote "the gospel of John" and John really did not write this book as is popularly believed. The evidence for this is clearly stated in the end of the same book. That will give you all something to check out. :-)

ms_canada 10 years, 5 months ago

liberty - I am as confused as Ceallach is about the connection you make between John, the disciple whom Jesus loved and Lazarus. I have never heard that refered to before. Could you enlighten us with some references. Why would Lazarus use the name John? I will research John and get back to you on this board, not the one for today, April 21.

Hong_Kong_Phooey 10 years, 5 months ago

Ceallach: "As children of LJW Comments"?!?!


Fangorn 10 years, 5 months ago

It was a poetic/symbolic remark, HKP. Give her some leeway here. :)

Ceallach 10 years, 5 months ago

H_K_P: If we get too rowdy -- smack! We could get a whole new ballgame:) Oh, never mind, they've already done that!

Since we are straying and I don't even want to get into how many Mary's there are in The Book -- how about you Jayhawk fans out there taking a break == check it out ==

click on "Samples" then go to tracks 11 & 12.

ms_canada 10 years, 5 months ago

Liberty - can I point out a couple of things about your post above that you might want to rethink. Lazarus had two sisters, Mary and Martha. These three were from Bethany. Mary Magdalene was a different lady. Her name tells us that she was Mary from Magdala which was a town on the Sea of Galilee. Bethany was a village on the east slope of the Mt. of Olives. Ceallach - in the book The DaVinci Code, Mary Magdalene is portayed as the wife of Jesus and they had a daughter. Artistic liberty taken to a very high point, yes?

ms_canada 10 years, 5 months ago

to Christy and Ceallach - sorry girls, I made another goofy mistake. I meant to say about the DaVinci Code to Christy instead of Ceallach.

craigers 10 years, 5 months ago

Ceallach, thanks for the link, that was pretty cool. Maybe they should play that at the beginning of games in the fieldhouse?

Ceallach 10 years, 5 months ago

ms_canada: not to worry I had to dash off to a staff mtg :-( just now catching up.

craigers: I had to listen a couple of times before I understood all of the words. I think my ears are just too old to decipher rap on the first round. I think it is really cute.

one_more_bob: Good call, pancakes should bring agreement from liberals and conservatives, as well as the faithful and the unfaithful (sorry, I couldn't resist).

David Ryan 10 years, 5 months ago

What the?

"Progressives (generally) view man as a servant of the state; Catholics view society as the servant of man. Progressives are primarily concerned with the advancement of the state --- Catholics with the salvation of the soul. Have things progressed or regressed? Just look at the modernity of the 20th Century, appropriately coined the 'culture of death.'"

I'm a progressive and I hold none of the beliefs you ascribe to all progressives.

Here's a bit of reality that contradicts your belief about progressives: I don't believe the state should have the power to take life, which is something George Bush believes.

Get your beliefs more in accord with reality and I'm sure you'll be doing your part to make the world a better place.

Sloppy thinking, overgeneralizations, and, yes, lunacy, are not things we need more of.

Liberty 10 years, 5 months ago

Ms_canada, I admire your meek spirit and gentle manor. You do show the fruit of the Spirit.

May I make a counter suggestion, a reading of Luke 7:36 to Luke 8:2. Then John 12:1 to John 12:8. Also Mark 14:3 to Mark 14:9. (Concerning which Mary it was that used her hair to wipe Jesus feet and applied ointment of spiknard.) Also John 20:1 to 20:2. Finally, John 21:20 to John 21:24.

Christy_K 10 years, 5 months ago

ms_canada, since I have not read the Da Vinci code I can not really say anything about it except that it is generally accepted as fiction (which is why I probably didn't read it.)

However there is extensive legimate research on who Mary Magdalene was. Most don't seem to believe she was his wife (so poor choice of wording on my part) but the historical documents do support her being close to Jesus and probably an apostle. History also seems to demonstrate that she has been misrepresented.

Just to repeat the Da Vinci code had nothing to do with my comment (that was a false assumption made by an earlier poster)...but all the other research I had read does. I understand how my comments was misunderstood but please get off the fiction thing. Just because a fiction writer included it in his story doesn't mean it hasn't been studied by real scholars for years.

If the pope makes changes to the church it should be based on scholarly re-examing of the church doctrine and not just because it would make the church more liberal was my original point long ago.

All I want now is pancakes.

GreenEyedBlues 10 years, 5 months ago

I wasn't going to church, anyway.

I think a non-European pope would have been nice. But alas, it's not my church, and the matter of who's sitting at the head of the table is one for which I am no longer concerned. I'm not at all surprised that they would elect a cardinal who has a very rigid conservative stance. Maybe Benedict XVI will think of a better way to sweep sexually abusive clergy under the rug.

ms_canada 10 years, 5 months ago

fangorn - thank you for clarifying the meaning of saint. the reference you mentioned in Col. is the one I was thinking of. Just as a point of curiosity, how is it that you have studied Greek and Hebrew? If it was for a career move or just for general interest, you need not elaborate if you do not care to reveal too much. I have a keen interest in language. Have studied spanish, portuguese, german and ukrainian. Can get by in italian and french when traveling. I believe that hagios is pronounced ayos, true? The femenine is haga, pronounced aya, true? At least that is the way they pronounced it in Greece and Turkey. I have visited the great edifice of Hagia Sofia in Istanbul. What a magnificent building it is. Please all, excuse the off topic interruption to fangorn. just skip over it.

Fangorn 10 years, 5 months ago

Liberty: I started looking at the passages you suggested eariler. Unfortunately, I don't have time just now to give them a thorough reading and consideration. I'll try to do that tonight or tomorrow. Either way, I'll post a reply at the end of today's discussion.

GrEyedBlues: The Catholic Church certainly should have handled the entire abuse issue in an aggressive, up-front manner. IMO, they should start with addressing what is tolerated at their seminaries. I was disappointed that Cardinal Law wasn't held more accountable for his complicity/silence.

Can I get blueberry pancakes? Or I make some great French toast. Vanilla, nutmeg, cinnamon & powdered suger. . . . It's worth it!

Fangorn 10 years, 5 months ago

Language buffs and those with nothing better to do, keep reading. All others, feel free to skip this post.

ms_canada: I have a minor in biblical languages. I've studied German, Latin, Greek, and Hebrew. I picked up a bit of Italian fairly quickly when I visited there in 2000. I attend church with a Ukranian family. I'd like to learn it, but I haven't formally studied any Slavic languages. My next two goals are Italian (so I can take Grandpa back to his Grandfather's hometown) and Russian. // The koine Greek word "hagios" is pronounced HOG ee ahs. The plural is hagioi, HOG ee oy. There isn't really a letter for "H" in koine Greek. If a word starts with a vowel, it is preceeded by a smooth breathe, which has no sound, or a rough breathe, which is the equivilant to our "H". That's how the Hebrew word "hallel" (to praise) coming through Greek to English is sometimes translated "Hallelujah" and sometime "Allelujah". Because of the rough breathe, Hallelujah is more correct. (Hebrew itself has the letter "heh", which is an "H" sound.) The ending of the word, "jah", is from the Hebrew personal name of God, the tetragrammiton, which is often translated "Jehovah" or "Yahweh". Though, really, we have no way of knowing how it is properly translated. Either way, "hallelujah" means simply "praise God". // I would love to visit the Hagia Sophia. It means Holy Wisdom.

ms_canada 10 years, 5 months ago

liberty - I thank you for the references and I will look them up and get back to you later. Time for supper right now. Hey, fangorn, when can I come to your house for breakfast, it sounds yummy.

Ceallach 10 years, 5 months ago

Oh no! I fear another divide is occuring. My vision of group unity centered on pancakes is being shattered and I find myself torn between pancakes and french toast. Truth be known, I too favor french toast.

Can't wait to read today's late posts tomorrow morning.

May you all have a peaceful night.

lunacydetector 10 years, 5 months ago

craigers, +what do you call the man who sired you? +Do you go to a church? +Does that church have any Sunday school teachers? +Do the pastors of that church call themselves "doctor"? I ask because you did not reference the very next verse in Matthew which says that we are not to be called (in various translations) "masters" "teachers" "doctors" "leaders".

I hope that you eschew these terms.

At least as much as Saint Paul was careful to avoid 'father' when he wrote; "I appeal to you for my child, Onesimus, whose father I have become in my imprisonment" (Philem. 10). or to the Corinthians 4:14-16, I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you. For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

St. Paul seems to have got the whole father/teacher/leader thing mixed up!

ms_canada 10 years, 5 months ago

liberty - I have checked out the passages that you quoted and tell me if I have this correct. You are saying that Lazarus wrote the Gospel of John and that Mary of Magdala was his sister. Now, what I understand from the passages you mentioned is this: in Luke 7, Jesus has dinner at the home of a Pharisee, no name given. A sinful woman washes his feet with perfume and dries them with her hair. In John 12 at a dinner given in His honor, it does not really say where the dinner was. It says that Martha served. Lazarus was at the table. Mary washed His feet. then in Mark 14 Jesus is at the home of Simon the Leper in Bethany. A woman (no name given) washes His feet with perfume. So we have three accounts of the feet washing and all three are different. So, I take it that you are connecting these incidents up to say that Mary of Magdala was the woman in all three cases and that she was the sister of Lazarus and Martha. I will have to do some additional study to see if I can concur on this. Talk to you later.

lunacydetector 10 years, 5 months ago

....FYI - one more thing for some of you regarding the apostolic succession from Christ. based on scripture. click link.

ms_canada 10 years, 5 months ago

ceallach - I seem to be torn between french toast and pancakes. I love my pancakes smothered in strawberries, the fresher the better, but that french toast of fangorn sure does make the mouth water at the thought. Oh dear, I hate these dilemmas. Have you ever stayed at a B&B in Ireland and been over whelmed by the sumptousness of the breakfast? Or do you stay with family? I must say the Irish out do the English for breakfast in the B&Bs

anonymous 10 years, 5 months ago

"...being a car salesman should disqualify someone from being trusted..."

"... it was mandatory for kids his age to belong to the hitler youth, so his implied discriminatory statement is misinformed and ignorant..."

speaking of ignorant....

i am also a sales professional, and do not believe myself, or a vast majority of other sales professionals (automotive or otherwise) to be dishonest. this is a broad generalization, which may have been true at one time, but is not relevant anymore. i have not, in any of my auto buying experiences had this experience, nor have a majority of my friends/family.

this assumption also was stated by someone who said "...I think the cardinals have been around long enough to know what they're doing..." in my opinion, this would be something you'd hear from someone who "...accepts what he is told without thinking except at the shallowest level just like one who swallows what he is fed without chewing..."

as for the second quote, it is my understanding that he was asked to leave the Hitler Youth program because of his desire to continue is study of theology. He obviously didnt leave. He also didnt abandon military service until the latter stages of the war, which would make think of convenience rather than ideological disputes. I just think that might be something that would come into play and cause him to leave earlier. i'm not catholic, and so i dont have much to say about wether or not it was a wise decision. i'm still researching the matter, and do not claim my comment to be 100% fact, but this is my understanding thus far. it is also my understanding that the comment section is not intended for personal attacks. i often have unpopular views, and can appreciate those who think outside the box.

Liberty 10 years, 5 months ago

Hi Ms_canada,

I think you are stuck on Mary coming originally from Magdala, but the bible says that Mary, Martha and Lazarus lived in Bethany, not Magdala. Nowhere that I have read does the Bible speak of a Mary that lived in Magdala, but rather in Bethany. Mary, Martha, and Lazarus all lived in Bethany according to the account in John 11, just outside of Jerusalem. If you read John 11:1 to 11:10 or so, you will read that only one woman named Mary washed Jesus feet with her hair and anointed his body with spiknard, since the author says you can identify her by this act and her name was Mary. That would make all of the accounts that you just read the same account from a different perspective. This would make this person Mary Magdalene, sister to Martha and to Lazarus. It also makes sense that Mary Magdalene would go to the tomb with the "disciple whom Jesus loved" which we know according to John chapter 11 that this person is Lazarus her brother. Hope this helps you out.

ms_canada 10 years, 5 months ago

liberty - I just discovered your post. I, too, have enjoyed the exchange of ideas and information. I have a strong faith in the Lord Jesus and claim Him as my Savior and Lord. I believe that the entire Bible is the inspired word of the the Almighty God and treasure it in my life. I do have a lot of reference books as I have been teaching adult study groups for more than 10 years. I am going to speak to my Pastor about this and see if he can shed some light on it You seem like a very nice kind and understanding person and I am happy to share with you this conversation medium. bye for now.

Fangorn 10 years, 5 months ago

WARNING: Long post as part of an exchange of point and counterpoint.

anon: My earlier comment on car salesmen was meant to be ironic based on the stereotype of car salesmen, esp. used car salesmen. Young Mr. Appril's remark was based on his ignorance of the involuntary nature of many German youths' association with the Hitler Youth. He made an assumption about Joseph Ratzinger, I purposefully blurted out an assumption about him. I (obviously) failed to communicate well the intended nature of my remark.

Also, according to every source I've uncovered so far (and I've been looking), he did, in fact, leave the Hitler Youth after declaring his intention to study for the priesthood. Additionally, he turned 18 three weeks before the war in Europe ended. So even if he'd deserted on his first day of basic training, he could only have "abandon military service [in] the latter stages of the war".

You've obviously taken the time to read some of my posts, and I appreciate that. Further, I recognize the value of using quotes from others' posts to point out apparent inconsistencies. Allow me to explain my reasoning vis-Ã -vis the Cardinals' collective competence. First, there are over 100 of them. "Without consultation, plans are frustrated. But with many counselors they succeed." Second, they are all highly educated men. Third, they have all been among the top leadership of their church for years and are uniquely positioned to assess the leadership needs of the one billion Catholics world-wide. Fourth, everyone serving as a Cardinal during the last 5-10 years knew that he would be involved in selecting a new Pope, and thus had plenty of time to prepare for the task. And finally, new Popes are selected from among the very group of men doing the selecting: the Cardinals themselves. They are most certainly aware of their colleagues' histories, proclivities, strengths, weaknesses, favorite wines, whatever. I stand by my assertion that the Cardinals "know what they're doing". I will further point out that Mr. Appril took one fact (new Pope was in Hitler Youth) devoid of context and drew his conclusion (Ratzinger should be disqualified from papacy). I took quite a number of facts, together with my experience and my knowledge of history and leadership, to draw my conclusion. I most certainly did not think at a shallow level or swallow without chewing. Others are free to dispute my conclusion if they will, but I think they face a greater challenge in proving the opposing point-of-view.

Fangorn 10 years, 5 months ago

French toast ms_canada & other breakfast-lovers: Preheat griddle/skillet/frying pan to 325 degrees. Start with two eggs, add one egg for each additional person being served. Beat eggs with wire whisk until fairly smooth. Add whole or 2% milk and continue beating. (Experiment with the amount of milk until you recognize the proper color and viscosity of the batter.) Add about 1 tablespoon of vanilla for every two eggs. (Again, the color will be your clue.) Sprinkle in nutmeg and stir some more. Pour some batter into shallow sauce pan. Using buttermilk bread, dip both sides of slice into batter, pressing down with a fork to get thorough saturation. Spray griddle/skillet/frying pan with cooking spray and set the bread on it. While the first side is cooking, sprinkle the top side with a mixture of cinnamon and powdered sugar (Once more, experiment with the ratio of cinnamon to powdered sugar until you recognize the right color for the mixture.) After turning the bread, this flavor will bake very nicely into it. Spread butter and syrup, add sausage or bacon, and enjoy! Now who wants breakfast?

Liberty 10 years, 5 months ago

Let me quickly clarify what I said. (Short on time today). The Bible translators did not know who wrote the "Gospel of John". They think that John wrote it but I can see no evidence of this in the book itself. (This conclusion makes no sense). The answer is in the book itself. If you read in Chapter 21 at the end of the book, it says that the author that wrote the book (gospel) is "the disciple whom Jesus loved". The key to find out the identity of this person is found in Chapter 11 of the same book. It states that Lazarus was the disciple whom Jesus loved. It also states that after Lazarus was raised from the dead, that the religious people of the time were trying to kill him as well as Jesus, because he caused many to believe on Jesus after he was raised from the dead. So Lazarus had to "code" or hide the author of the book to keep (the gospel) safe from being destroyed by the religious people of the time so you and I could read it today.

Separately, the Mary question is not as critical, but the end of the book makes much more sense and is logical all the way through the book and other accounts of the gospel, if you understand that Mary, Martha, and Lazarus were sister and brother and I think with intensive reading of the gospels, it can be proved that the "Mary" that performed the act of washing Jesus' feet with her hair and her tears and anointing him with perfume (spiknard) very costly, was indeed Mary Magdalene; sister to Lazarus. I could be wrong on Mary, but it really fits the entire book and does not make sense without this understanding; and it fits in all of the other gospel accounts if you track her steps. The really interesting point is the real identity of the author of the gospel (so called Gospel of John). Of course the Gospel is divinely inspired which is clear by reading it, it also has a person who did the pen work and was eye witness which I believe without a doubt to be Lazarus. Just think and place yourself in Lazarus' shoes for a moment; would you reveal the name of your sister directly if a bunch was out to kill you and hurt you however they could in order to defeat Jesus???

ms_canada 10 years, 5 months ago

liberty - you make a great case for the authorship of the gospel of John and it is indeed true that the authorship has been debated by Biblical scholars over the years. Your point about Lazarus using a nom de plume and disguising his identity to protect his gospel and his sister is well taken. I thank you for your well worded response here today. It gives me a whole new idea to ponder.

Ceallach 10 years, 5 months ago

liberty: John 11:5 says "now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus" by the same logic, I might conclude that Martha was the author. You say you believe the Gospel is divinely inspired yet it seems the authors humanity is most prevalent in your conclusions. Even to the point that you "believe without a doubt to be Lazarus."

Considering that most of the books were written during times of persecution, are we to conclude that others shared Lazarus' fear of discovery and hid their identity? I will need more information to even consider Lazarus as the author. I do not exclude it, I am convinced that the book was inspired, Lazarus as author would not change that validity. It might however, add a new variable for cross-referenced notations wherein it may be aligned with other passages attributed to John. And in my mind it would not lead to the conclusion that Mary Magdalene was Mary, sister of Lazarus.

You have stated your conclusions very well, however, I would like to look at the sources of your research.

Ceallach 10 years, 5 months ago

liberty: I have spent time this evening looking through the Gospels and pondering the Mary, Mary, Lazarus question. In doing so I learned some very interesting facts about the book of John. The question of authorship is not a new one. However, the second century church writings of Irenaeus explicitly and consistently attribute this Gospel to the apostle John. Even the Reformers came to that conclusion and they were nothing if not thorough in scrutinizing scripture and declaring that doctrine must be derived from scripture alone. Sola Scriptura!

Since we have established that the authorship does not lessen the inspiration I am able to leave it there.

However, on the question of Mary sister of Lazarus and Mary Magdalene being the same person, I think that is quite unlikely. Looking through Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, I find the authors seemed very careful to keep their Marys separate. In each of the four, Mary Magdalene is always called Mary Magdalene, other Mary's are described differently. In one verse it even refers to Mary Magdalene and the other Mary. Since even the book of John sets her apart as Mary Magdalene in a later chapter I do not believe that she was the sister of Lazarus.

Thank you for sharing your views, as many of us have, and for encouraging some reflection on what we believe and why we believe it. Of course the most important thing is that we believe the author was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write the book and present Jesus as the Lamb of God who gave His life for His people.

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