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What do you think of St. Mary’s Academy’s refusal to play White City because White City has a girl on the football team?

Asked at Johnny's Tavern, 401 N. Second St. on September 23, 2004

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Photo of Alysse Doane

“I think that if a girl wants to play male-dominated sports, then they should set up two different teams.”

Photo of Richie Kennedy

“I think that if a girl wants to play, and her team supports her, then she should be able to play. I think White City should win the game by forfeit.”

Photo of Craig Hoffman

“I think that people in Lawrence need to focus on our own youth programs, and try to make our own sports teams more fair.”

Photo of Brad Dauler

“If a girl is on the football team, then she can probably hold her own or she will quit playing. It shouldn’t be up to St. Mary’s.”

Comments

JHAWKGURL 10 years, 3 months ago

you go girl....show'em what its all about!!! If she wants to play then let her!!!!!!!

Savage 10 years, 3 months ago

did i cross the line today with the extra comments? Hmmm.

My dimentions 6ft. 220, avid weight lifter and practisioner of martial arts.

Pleeeeease, my comments about the sport are right on.

The other comments are just political. whatever...take it or leave it.

Hi_Jinks 10 years, 3 months ago

"nicegirl".....I'm omnipotent! (All seeing, all knowing.) The built-in "Hi_Jinks modesty" keeps me from bragging about it, however! ;) !!

Ordinarily, I agree with your daily posts, Original_Bob.

....But unfortunately, not today.

And before I go any further......

"Big Jim and the Twins"???

I've never heard of them before. However, I have heard of "Willy Long and the Step Children".

Any relation?

How about "Dick Tation"? Ever heard of him? He was huge (no pun intended) back in the late 60's, early 70's! I believe he performed on the old Ed Sullivan Show several times!

And, of course, if you really want to go way, way back....In the mid-1950's there was "VD and the Burning Sensations". But along came Elvis, and the "Sensations" were wiped off the top forty charts!---But I understand that the "Sensations" are making a big comeback these days! That's nice. (I guess.)

NoBs, "...women and men are very different", you say. By that, you mean "physiologically". Yeah, sure.

Duh!

But, you know something.....This girl obviously likes football. A lot. She's willing to play, inherent risks and all!! And, who knows. Maybe at the high school level, she is more than capable of handling herself against the "boys".

I am sure, like any rational, right-minded/thinking individual, that she probably couldn't hang with the "men" if she were to pursue football at the college level--let alone, the pro level. I will grant you that. And Savage's idea of an "all girl football team/league" (high school) isn't about to become a reality any time soon.....So why deny her, what may surely be in her life, the one and only time/opportunity to play organized football? It's just high school football! What's the big deal? She's not hurting her team's chances of winning any sort of "national championship" (like college) or Super Bowl (pro league).

Please! Let's try to put this thing into proper perspective! She knows the risks involved, and I'm sure her parents and school does too! And they (her parents/school) are, it would seem, behind her 100%.---And they should be!!

And getting back to the main point/question at hand.....

As I stated earlier, St. Mary's is probably scared of being "shown up" by a girl in uniform in one way or another. Be it by her scoring a touchdown, or simply by kicking a few extra points. St. Mary's isn't worried about the "poor, weak, defenseless girl getting hurt".---So don't kid yourself! They're far more worried about her succeeding in some form or fashion against them---and it scares them!

Boy! Talk about being "insecure"!

Somebody should tell the St. Mary's team/coach to think like REAL MEN......And let the GIRL play!!

mrcairo 10 years, 3 months ago

St. Mary's loses by default. Bunch of chumps.

Perhaps they should play the KC Chiefs instead. I'll take St. Mary's.

nicegirl 10 years, 3 months ago

Hi_Jinks: We must have web cam or something because I DID smile! You know me so well.

italianprincess 10 years, 3 months ago

Right on Kara and I bet you are better then have those boys on the other team.

If the other team refuses to play because of a girl on the team, then its a automatic forfiet.

Sounds like the other school is bias to girls playing football. I bet shes a great player to. Who cares if shes a girl.

Go get them Kara!!!!!!!!!

Hi_Jinks 10 years, 3 months ago

I think St. Mary's Academy ought to just shut up and play football! It's high school football we're talking about here! The girl in question is probably as good (talent-wise) as some (or perhaps, most) of the boys that are on her team--or on St. Mary's team, for that matter!

Now, should these two teams play each other....the referees should be on the look out for any sort of gratuitous "touchy-feely" stuff on the part of the St. Mary's players during and/or after any play involving this girl. Any "freshness/lewdness" on the part of a St. Mary's player, and this girl should be allowed to reach under that St. Mary's player's facemask...AND SLAP HIM SILLY!!----With no penalty charge against White City for "unsportsmanlike" conduct.

Besides, I bet the real reason St. Mary's doesn't want to play White City is because St Mary's is terrified that this girl will score five touchdowns against them, and as a result, it will make national headlines! (Much to St. Mary's chagrin!)

italianprincess 10 years, 3 months ago

And whats with Alysse's answer to the issue.

" Set up two different teams " How many other schools have female football teams?

I don't know of one, does anyone else?

Women's rights here Alysse, we won that right long ago and you sound to much like June Cleaver here.

I guess us girls should be in the kitchen and barefoot. Forget playing soccer, basketball or even baseball for that matter. They all use to be persay male-dominated sports.

Savage 10 years, 3 months ago

its silly... remove the girl. I played hocked in jr high/high school up north and we had a girl on our team once. We hit hard, very hard, I myself have been injured several times. I know that we all held off on her in practice, and players held back from pounding her down during games. She was actually hit hard one game and then she quit. I know football players too. I know for a fact that this chic probably could NOT sustain a good bell ringing out of the field. What? is she the kicker? Ok then...maybe, but Defense... a strong boy will just shove her off like a rag doll. Offense? she will be hit so hard eventually, maybe the other teams dont want to be responsible for her accidental death. Wake up folks. Make an all girls football team. Now that would be cool.

Alysse Doane...thanks for representing reality. Political correctness is DEAD! Bush will be re-elected and his MIGHTY traditions will be continued.

Down with abortion rights, and gay rights too.

just zip it up and drink your coffee please!!!

NEXT....

nicegirl 10 years, 3 months ago

Part of me thinks she should be able to play, but the other part of me disagrees. Maybe I wouldn't word things quite like Savage, but I think that in reality it just isn't a very good idea. Aside from injuries I know enough about teenage boys to make me wonder about the knid of treatment and harassment that could come about. Not that it is her fault, but it's a reality. I think the school is just trying to cover their backside just in case.

Hi_Jinks 10 years, 3 months ago

Savage....

1.) It's high school football we're discussing here.....Not college or pro football! Please! Give me a break! Many high school football players are BOYS. I don't see too many 6'5" 275 pound MEN playing high school football. Do you? I'll bet you she's not the smallest person on her team! Wanna bet? Also...Hey, if she gets her bell rung by some "big, manly, testosterone-filled stud" while playing football....well, she'll have to then decide whether or not she wants to continue taking those kind of hits. It's up to her! Maybe she's one tough gal? She probably could kick your ass, Savage! (Wouldn't that be a riot!)

2.) Get off the whole abortion and/or gays thing for just on day, okay? What the hell do those two things have to do with today's topic?

Go lift some weights, "girlie-man"!

mr_daniels 10 years, 3 months ago

Very pertinent subject here children: Conservatism versus Liberalism. On the sidelines I will stand and watch "this game." No "fake timeouts" now, you hear? Heh, Heh, Heh!

Savage 10 years, 3 months ago

I wonder what Jim Rome would say about it?

Im sure it would be hilarious!

italianprincess 10 years, 3 months ago

Savage, Thanks for your dimentions here.....like we really care.

If this young girl wants to play football then so be it. If she gets hurt then thats her problem. Its nice to see a girl wanting to try something out of the norm for a change.

As far as your political comments you have your choice to speak you mind, but save it for the Reader Reaction part of the paper. Theres so much debating going on there its crazy.

I do want to know why you want all these rights taken away though? Are you homophobic? What do you have against men and women who choose to love someone of the same gender? Why should someone have the right to tell us women what we can do with our bodies and what we can and can not do?

Sounds like you want the government to control every aspect of our lives here and give us rules and regs to follow. I thought we were living in a world where we were free to make our own choices, but its sounds like you want our choices taken away.

I know I mentioned going to the Reader Reaction section for all of this, but now I'm truely curious what is behind your thinking on these issues. Enlighten us here just because..........

craigers 10 years, 3 months ago

I think that the teams ought to play. In order to be on any team you have to sign a waiver to cover all of your injuries, so I don't see the problem. I really think that St. Mary's just doesn't want to be the team that gets beat by another team with a girl. I mean I am a conservative, but let the girl play. She is probably really tough and could drop the hammer on most of those guys. I have a cousin and when we used to play football, she would pound a lot of the guys that were playing. Let the girl play and maybe she can make the highlight reel and just clock one of the guys. That would be really cool.

jonas 10 years, 3 months ago

Savage: I could kick your butt!

}B-)>

/green belt. But quick! like lightning!

Hi_Jinks 10 years, 3 months ago

Savage.....

I could give you my "dimensions", but you, and everyone else here, would mistakenly (though, understandably) think that I am a horse or something. --So I won't!

Besides, if my true "dimensions" were to be made public, something tells me it would drive "nicegirl" absolutely insane with curiosity! (Isn't that right, nicegirl? I see you smiling right now! Yeah, you're smiling!)

Anyway, with reference to your comments about gays and abortion vis-a-vis today's question......Does the word/term "germane" mean anything to you?

NoBs 10 years, 3 months ago

You can talk about women's rights until you are blue in the face but in the real world women and men are very different. Women's advocates many times argue that a woman can do anything a man can do. In the real world however this is absolutely abusrd. On the other hand, there are talents that women posess that men will never have. Women's roles have and are changing quickly, many would say for the better. In reality is it really better? If for twenty million years, the woman's role in in the family was to raise her children, is it really ok to change this in twenty years and call it better?

Time will tell.

Be Practical

italianprincess 10 years, 3 months ago

So Nobs,

Are you saying that women in this day and age should be barefoot, pregnant, in the kitchen and raising the children?

Women have been rising above for years now and you make this girl sound as if she is some kind of wimpy little girlie girl. You don't know her do you? Maybe shes one of the better players on the team.

I believe this other school is being very bias towards this young girl and the whole football team for that matter. They should certainly win by forfiet for their reason for not wanting to play.

jonas 10 years, 3 months ago

It really depends on what position she's playing. I played high school football too, and a slightly bigger than average girl would match up pretty accurately to wide-reciever or defensive secondary size. Something tells me that she's not a linemen or linebacker. As far as muscle-fat ratio: while it's true that averages go in one direction, a regular work-out regimen will eliminate that difference quite effectively. If she ends up wanting preferential treatment, however, she should shut up or go home.

In regards to NoBS's comments about it being the way things always have been, it's a mistake to believe that any traditions of the past are, by default, still relevent. The reason is very simple, and in lies the reason most of those changes have happened so recently: technological advancements. In the same way as society itself, technology increasingly shields us from the disadvantages of our own physiology, and thus blurs the gender lines and roles more than ever in the past. Not to say that things HAVE to change, but it is a mistake to view it as the right way solely because of tradition.

jonas 10 years, 3 months ago

Sorry, Flakey, but I didn't know that was the question.

Of course they can (or should be able to.) Can anyone give a reason that holds water for why they should not?

Hi_Jinks 10 years, 3 months ago

consumer1, I didn't say anything about "homophobia" today! Savage was (for a fact) going off on some tangent...So, I expressed my desire to keep the respones "germane".

Now, to answer Jonas' question.....

Jonas, the only possible reason that I can think of as to why homosexuals couldn't/shouldn't be allowed to play high school football would be that they (homosexuals) may have a propensity to use too much "illegal use of the hands".

--"Illegal use of the hands" is considered a penalty in the game of football, you know!

But then again, I'm sure a lot of heterosexual football players are guilty of that particular penalty, as well!!

So...on second thought....I guess there is no real/valid reason why homosexuals can't play high school football!!

Let them play, I say! Let them all play! Gays, straights, AND GIRLS, TOO!!

Larry 10 years, 3 months ago

Did anyone notice that the KC Star has a front page article about this football game in this mornings (Friday's) paper? Rick Bowden, the KSHSAA representative, sure was preaching from the politically correct corner. Unbelieveable! To top things off, he pops off about receiving past complaints about the unsportsmanlike behavior of the St. Mary's fans. Like that isn't happening everywhere. I'll bet every team in the State of Kansas has received complaints about their fans at one time or another. Then Bowden goes on to talk about revoking St. Mary's right to compete in Kansas. Is this guy an idiot? They have every right to back out of this game due to religious beliefs. If Bowden thinks the unsportsmanlike conduct of the fans give him more reason to boot St. Mary's out, he better have a paper trail of every school district in Kansas which demonstrates that they have been angels with no complaints about sportsmanship. Impossible!!!! Remember Coach Mangione's little sideshow a couple of years ago.

C_Rob 10 years, 3 months ago

There is no question in my mind that the girl should be able to play, and St. Mary's should forfeit the game. However I am curious on how a female would react if a male wanted to play on a women's team. If a guy wants to play in the girls volleyball or basketball league is that allright? I am sure an arguement that will be brought up is that there is no women's football team. That is a valid point but there are other sports that only women (in general) participate in. The question is simply to see how women on this forum view the flipside of this situation. I have always been curious about the women's opinion on a male participating on a female sport or team.

italianprincess 10 years, 3 months ago

I just read the article and it said that this young girl is a guard on the football team. Her parents back her as well do her team players and the school.

The reasoning for this other school not wanting to play them is because they think that girls shouldn't be playing football. It was the academy officials who called and said they don't play football with girls. She would have of course needed a place to change into her football uniform and thats what started this whole deal with them not wanting to play.

St Mary's is affliated with the Society of Pius X , a traditionalist Catholic splinter group that opposes reforms that modernized the church back in the 1960s. Of course the rector father of St Mary's couldn't be reached, nor could the athetic director. All phone calls were referred to the St Mary's campus. One man answered the phone and declined his name of course but had this to say.....It wasn't feminine for a girl to play football and that it wouldn't br chivalrous for boys to knock her around.

Kara as qouted in the paper said if she didn't want to get knocked around she wouldn't be playing football.

How the story is going to end here is that the Huskies wil win by default. Chalk one up for Kara for taking a win for her team and school because she happens to be a girl who enjoys playing football.

italianprincess 10 years, 3 months ago

C Rob,

At the 150th Birthday parade here in Lawrence last weekend I saw a young man marching along with all the girls in the flag section of the band.

I realize that this isn't a sport he is doing, but its the same thing here. If this young man wants to be a part of the flag section for his school then he should be able to. He did a great job and looked like he enjoyed representing his school by being a part of the flag team.

jonas 10 years, 3 months ago

C Rob: The only way I see that as a valid comparison is by comparing it to other teams where there is not an equivelent male team or league. Honestly, I'm not aware of any sports on the high-school level like that, but I fully admit to the fact that high-school sports are not, anymore, my area of expertise.

So, does anyone know: are there high-school sports for just women?

nicegirl 10 years, 3 months ago

Jonas: I think things are changing alot now, but my high school had a girls volleyball team, tennis team, soccer, basketball and softball teams. Of course, I went to a 6A school so the smaller schools don't have those opportunities many times.

I think a few years after I graduated though there was a girl on the football team (freshman).

jonas 10 years, 3 months ago

nicegirl: I meant teams that there's not a male equivelent of (IE softball/baseball Wsoccer/Msoccer etc. I know my high school had boys and girls teams of all that you listed above, except I'm not sure on volleyball.

Hi_Jinks 10 years, 3 months ago

Shannon Sharpe is gay?

Hmmm.....Over the years, I've heard rumors about John Wayne being gay. Tom Cruise being gay. And even Howard Hughes being gay. (Although I think Hughes was just plain nuts, if you ask me!) But I've never heard any rumors about Shannon Sharpe!

Original_Bob, I think we need to discuss this matter further!

Larry 10 years, 3 months ago

Why is it that (from toddler age up) we teach our boys to never hit a girl and now we're saying that it is okay? We have some girl who decides to play a boys sport (possibly for attention only) and the opposing team decides that they don't wish to play because they view hitting a girl as wrong (regardless of the situation) and everyone believes that this particular school is out of line. You can't have it both ways!

Just like many of you, I played football too and I can tell you that I would have had a terrible time hitting a girl full speed in full pads. For those of us who have actually played during a game, (not simply stand on the sideline), the intensity is great and there can be some intense hitting going on. Football isn't a contact sport, it is a collision sport and the speed and tempo of the high school game is great enough to cause great injury to any and all participants.

The one factor that I keeps coming back to my mind is a statement that my high school coaches would say over and over. They always said that "those individuals most likely to get hurt are those that are going half speed." Why should these boys have to pull up or slow down and risk getting hurt because they are being asked to do something that they've always been taught NOT to do? Maybe the girl isn't fearful of being hit, but I wouldn't want to hit her, NOR would I want my sons hitting her at full speed. I definitely don't feel that my boys should risk injury because they slow up to avoid doing something that there mother and I have told them is absolutely WRONG in ALL CASES. I simply don't fill that it is right. I'd rather see a girl play on a boys basketball team (my sister in law did so when she was in junior high and was quite good) or run on a boys track team or swim on a boys swim team. As for football, wrestling or hockey - NO THANKS!

In response to the comment that this particular school is simply afraid of being shown up by a girl. GET REAL! I don't care how great of an athlete this girl might be - she cannot compete at the high school level in this particular sport. The differences between young men and young woman in terms of physical strength and power are huge.

jonas 10 years, 3 months ago

Larry: There's nothing wrong with hitting a girl that deserves it.

By deserves it, of course, I mean if she's coming at me to hurt me, and I can't grapple her down or talk her out of it. Same as a guy. Luckily, neither has happened, in earnest, since elementary school.

Hi_Jinks 10 years, 3 months ago

Larry, my girlfriend is an Amazon! Want to come over some night and arm-wrestle her? The winner takes on Savage, hows that? You interested?

Hi_Jinks 10 years, 3 months ago

Larry, don't give me that "which is it" stuff! It is not hypocritical to say, "don't hit girls" and then tackle a girl in football! In our society, fistfighting is illegal---but we have legalized boxing, don't we?

Larry....Jesus! Mary! And Joseph!

You're micro-analyzing this whole afffair! Get with the times, MAN! This girl is probably one tough cookie---and it (obviously) threatens the "manhood" of guys like you! If she wants to play, let her play! IT'S JUST HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL, LARRY! WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT THE KANSAS CITY CHIEFS!!

P.S. Good to hear from you! You must be busy working. I don't see that many posts from you these days! Hope all is well! (And no hard feelings!) :) !!

Larry 10 years, 3 months ago

No hard feeling Hi_Jinks!

Don't be hitting too many woman now.

ravenbluffer 10 years, 3 months ago

My understanding of St. Mary's Academy having played against them in high school -- and the church that sponsors the school, leads me to guess that their objection is based on their religious beliefs, which when last I checked they have the right to hold. One error in the article is that it calls St. Mary's Academy "a small Catholic school." Maybe I am wrong, but I think they would be the first to distance themselves from the Roman Catholic Church, and they are probably more than just a "splinter" group as the article refers to them.

Do I agree with their logic in their desire not to play the game, not necessarily. Do I think they have the right to hold their position, yes. Do I think they should forfeit the game, yes. We are calling on them to be open-minded in this instance: in the criticism I've read here, how open-minded are we being to their beliefs?

Savage 10 years, 3 months ago

Back!

oh well ... long day in the field.

Italian Princess Q and A

IP: I do want to know why you want all these rights taken away though?

S: First of all... Do what you may in your bedroom, but no-one should get special priveleges because of who they want to have sex with

IP: Are you homophobic?

S: Not really, but the thought of gay sex just saddens me spiritually, and according to most major religions, including mine, it is deemed unholy and an abomination to God. But there can be repentance, forgivness, and salvation.

IP: What do you have against men and women who choose to love someone of the same gender?

S: I dont have anything against them personally, but in reality this question is like asking me what I think of anyone else who commits any other sin. just like a drug addict, I think that they also need help and must be saved.

IP: Why should someone have the right to tell us women what we can do with our bodies and what we can and can not do?

S: My views on abortion and homosexuality are not just my opinion, Im claiming to be RIGHT. To refute me please prove that my claims are false.

In fact, Isnt it just YOUR view that it's just MY view?

You probably would say it was wrong for me to force my views on others, when in fact you a just forcing your views on me by attacking my position. Hence... relativism fails by committing suicide once again.

Also...They are really not complex issues, They are complex only for those who, because of their own self-interest, want to make them complex.

And lastly... I do have the right to tell anyone, and discuss with them what I think they are doing is unjust and morally wrong. Do they have to listen? Perhaps not. But it still doesnt prove me wrong.

You will have understanding if your path truly one day leads you into the everlasting light.

italianprincess 10 years, 3 months ago

Savage, To each is own here with all of the above.

We all accept things, people etc in which ever way we want to. I have been raised to accpet people for who they are and not to judge them.

If a person chooses to terminate their baby that is their right. If a person chooses to fall in love with a person of their same sex then that is also their right.

I didn't mean to bash you at all over these issues but we do see things differently and thats what makes us human. I was also raised to be a very independent woman as well as my 3 older sisters. We speak our mind and voice our opinion as I see you do too.

Its good that our country allows us to speak freely and express ourselves when we choose to.

Again, I didn't mean to bash your opinions to these issues we just see things a bit different.

Have a great weekend......

ThePoolBoy 10 years, 2 months ago

I'm all for girls being able to play traditionally "boys" sports. However, boys ARE NOT ALLOWED to play traditionally "girls" sports...ie. Volleyball. Why is this??

There are workout centers across the country that are for women only (Curves for Women).

All is fine and dandy when a woman wants to enter the male playing field, but it is not acceptable to reverse the rolls.

Food for thought.

Anyone for a donut?

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