Archive for Saturday, August 12, 2017

White nationalist rally, violence rock Virginia city; 1 dead

A vehicle drives into a group of protesters demonstrating against a white nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Va., Saturday, Aug. 12, 2017. The nationalists were holding the rally to protest plans by the city of Charlottesville to remove a statue of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee. There were several hundred protesters marching in a long line when the car drove into a group of them. /The Daily Progress via AP)

A vehicle drives into a group of protesters demonstrating against a white nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Va., Saturday, Aug. 12, 2017. The nationalists were holding the rally to protest plans by the city of Charlottesville to remove a statue of Confederate Gen. Robert E. Lee. There were several hundred protesters marching in a long line when the car drove into a group of them. /The Daily Progress via AP)

August 12, 2017, 12:13 p.m. Updated August 12, 2017, 4:29 p.m.

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— A car plowed into a crowd of people peacefully protesting a white nationalist rally Saturday in a Virginia college town, killing one person, sending at least 26 others to hospitals and ratcheting up tension in an increasingly violent confrontation.

The chaos boiled over at what is believed to be the largest group of white nationalists to come together in a decade: the governor declared a state of emergency, police dressed in riot gear ordered people out and helicopters circled overhead. The group had gathered to protest plans to remove a statue of the Confederal Gen. Robert E. Lee, and others who arrived to protest the racism.

Matt Korbon, a 22-year-old University of Virginia student, said several hundred counter-protesters were marching when "suddenly there was just this tire screeching sound." A silver sedan smashed into another car, then backed up, barreling through "a sea of people."

The impact hurled people into the air. Those left standing scattered, screaming and running for safety in different directions.

The driver was later arrested, authorities said.

The turbulence began Friday night, when the white nationalists carried torches though the university campus in what they billed as a "pro-white" demonstration. It quickly spiraled into violence Saturday morning. Hundreds of people threw punches, hurled water bottles and unleashed chemical sprays. At least eight were injured and one arrested in connection.

President Donald Trump condemned "in the strongest possible terms" what he called an "egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence on many sides" after the clashes. He called for "a swift restoration of law and order and the protection of innocent lives."

Trump says he's spoken with the governor of Virginia, Terry McAuliffe, and "we agreed that the hate and the division must stop and must stop right now."

But some of the white nationalists cited Trump's victory as validation for their beliefs, and Trump's critics pointed to the president's racially tinged rhetoric as exploiting the nation's festering racial tension.

The Rev. Jesse Jackson noted that Trump for years publicly questioned President Barack Obama's citizenship.

"We are in a very dangerous place right now," he said.

Right-wing blogger Jason Kessler had called for what he termed a "pro-white" rally in Charlottesville. White nationalists and their opponents promoted the event for weeks.

Oren Segal, who directs the Anti-Defamation League's Center on Extremism, said multiple white power groups gathered in Charlottesville, including members of neo-Nazi organizations, racist skinhead groups and Ku Klux Klan factions.

The white nationalist organizations Vanguard America and Identity Evropa; the Southern nationalist League of the South; the National Socialist Movement; the Traditionalist Workers Party; and the Fraternal Order of Alt Knights also were on hand, he said, along with several groups with a smaller presence.

On the other side, anti-fascist demonstrators also gathered in Charlottesville, but they generally aren't organized like white nationalist factions, said Heidi Beirich of the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Many others were just locals caught in the fray.

Colleen Cook, 26, stood on a curb shouting at the rally attendees to go home.

Cook, a teacher who attended the University of Virginia, said she sent her son, who is black, out of town for the weekend.

"This isn't how he should have to grow up," she said.

Cliff Erickson leaned against a fence and took in the scene. He said he thinks removing the statue amounts to erasing history and said the "counter-protesters are crazier than the alt-right."

"Both sides are hoping for a confrontation," he said.

It's the latest confrontation in Charlottesville since the city about 100 miles outside of Washington, D.C., voted earlier this year to remove a statue of Lee.

In May, a torch-wielding group that included prominent white nationalist Richard Spencer gathered around the statue for a nighttime protest, and in July, about 50 members of a North Carolina-based KKK group traveled there for a rally, where they were met by hundreds of counter-protesters.

Kessler said this week that the rally is partly about the removal of Confederate symbols but also about free speech and "advocating for white people."

"This is about an anti-white climate within the Western world and the need for white people to have advocacy like other groups do," he said in an interview.

Charlottesville Mayor Michael Signer said he was disgusted that the white nationalists had come to his town and blamed Trump for inflaming racial prejudices.

"I'm not going to make any bones about it. I place the blame for a lot of what you're seeing in American today right at the doorstep of the White House and the people around the president," he said.

Charlottesville, nestled in the foothills of the Blue Ridge Mountains, is a liberal-leaning city that's home to the flagship University of Virginia and Monticello, the home of Thomas Jefferson.

The statue's removal is part of a broader city effort to change the way Charlottesville's history of race is told in public spaces. The city has also renamed Lee Park, where the statue stands, and Jackson Park, named for Confederate General Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson. They're now called Emancipation Park and Justice Park, respectively.

For now, the Lee statue remains. A group called the Monument Fund filed a lawsuit arguing that removing the statue would violate a state law governing war memorials. A judge has agreed to temporarily block the city from removing the statue for six months.

Comments

Richard Aronoff 3 months, 1 week ago

So….the mayor of Charlottesville places the blame for the violence on the president and the people who voted for him. I’m “shocked.” Tell me, what idiot gave these two opposing groups permits to hold rallies on the same day in close proximity to one another?

If you want to talk about responsibility, which political party has based its entire electoral strategy on identity politics?

In Condoleezza Rice’s new book on democracy, an entire chapter is devoted to Kenya. Kenyan government officials hope that now that the country has a new constitution, the people will think of themselves as Kenyans and not continue to vote in lock step with their tribal affiliations.

But tribal affiliation is exactly what the Democrats have been pushing with their hyphenated American brand of politics.

You don’t have to be a neo-Nazi or member of the KKK to be disgusted when public officials or college presidents have to apologize or resign for having the temerity to say “All Lives Matter.” You don’t have to be a racist to be sick and tired of hearing that everything that’s wrong with this country is your fault.

I lived in New York City for over thirty years -- a short walk from the Trump Tower. Nobody ever called Donald Trump a racist until he announced his candidacy.

After the Supreme Court’s Brown decision, Virginia was one of a number of southern states that chained the doors of the public schools shut. But Trump is the racist. Priceless.

Theodore Calvin 3 months, 1 week ago

"Tell me, what idiot gave these two opposing groups permits to hold rallies on the same day in close proximity to one another?" Wait a sec. You were hoping the government would step in and make a determination as to whose message was more important and allowed to rally? Coming to you from the party of small government. Wouldn't that be an infringement upon either groups right to protest if the big bad government had stepped in and assigned play times on the playground? You surely would have lost your s$!t had the big bad government stepped in and assigned protest dates. Im always amazed but never shocked at the way these things are justified in people's heads. "If the hippies and blacks had just let the white nationalists have their little rally in peace none of this would have happened," is basically what you're saying.

Maybe no one called Trump a racist because he didn't hold the highest office in the land and seemingly bow to white nationalists, maybe that's why no one heard it. He was just a megalomaniac silver-spoon fed blow hard that people could ignore. Can't ignore him now when he is the leader of EVERY person in this country, not just his family and businesses.

Richard Aronoff 3 months, 1 week ago

You're right. The ACLU would have jumped right in screaming prior restraint like they did when they supported a NAZI march through Skokie, Illinois. And the courts might have overturned any injunction against the march. But buildings wouldn't have come crashing down, the sky wouldn't have fallen and nobody would have died.

The town could have said it didn't have the resources to handle two large rallies on the same day.

Theodore Calvin 3 months, 1 week ago

This is what happens when hatred and racism come to a head. Allowing two opposing views to hold public rallies for their belief is exactly the way our society was designed to work. People can speak freely, but then others can speak freely against that message. The problem isn't the time and/or place, the problem is the deep sentiment for or against a belief that will never just go away even if granted different play times on the playground.

Sarah Johnson 3 months, 1 week ago

"Nobody ever called Donald Trump a racist until he announced his candidacy."

Sure, sure. Except the federal government! He was sued for racial discrimination in house in the 1970s. For starters.

William Cummings 3 months, 1 week ago

"Nobody ever called Donald Trump a racist until he announced his candidacy."

http://www.snopes.com/donald-trump-racist-meme/

Bob Smith 3 months, 1 week ago

The leftists and the media (but I repeat myself) have normalized violent protests in the last couple of years. They've sown the wind and now they are reaping the whirlwind.

William Cummings 3 months, 1 week ago

Proof positive of how hard it is to disavow racists and bigots, even violent, murdering racists and bigots, when one has been so consistently supportive of their cause.

Steve Hicks 3 months, 1 week ago

Yeah, Bob, that's probably why "leftists" blow up federal office buildings and kill hundreds, or shoot and kill people at church Bible studies.

Those darned "leftists" love violence, and propagate violence. Best way to deal with them is run them down in the street, right ?

Their own fault. They deserve it.

Bob Smith 3 months, 1 week ago

Ferguson, Baltimore, Portland, Berkley, those mostly-peaceful leftists strike again.

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 3 months, 1 week ago

This is a photo of the uncle I never met, because he died ridding the world of Nazis. I had a great, great grandfather who bravely fought the confederates who wanted the "state's rights" to own humans. Battles between good vs evil. People fighting to have the same rights for all - good. People fighting to keep others from having rights, because they don't fit into the mold - evil. Muslim running car into crowd, killing people - evil. Nazi scum running car into crowd, killing people - evil.

My relatives fought to stop people like this and won every time. But the evil just won't go away. Make your choice. Which will you support?

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 3 months, 1 week ago

I also have a question for conservatives, which I know will not be answered.

If the same rights you enjoy are given to people of color, people of different sexual or gender orientation, immigrants, or any of the "other", do you lose rights? How? and Why?

I just had someone say, "I'm not racist, but Blacks kill cops." I pointed out to her that the cops killed in this area have mostly been killed by whites. So do we not hire Whites, because they kill cops. Do we pull over Whites, because they kill cops? I had a friend who was raped by a White guy. So don't get on an elevator with a White guy? Do we follow Whites around in the store, because when I worked in a grocery store, I busted more Whites shop lifting than Blacks. So Whites must be criminals right? This is racism. This woman who made the statement above will insist she is not a racist, but she constantly makes statements that are racist. A spade is a spade.

Jeremy Smith 3 months, 1 week ago

Dorothy, I worked at a store in town here and caught blacks stealing way more than whites. Not that skin color mattered because shoplifting is a crime no matter who you are but I am saying it is a matter of perspective. Your point proves nothing other than you worked at a store where whites decided to steal more than any other color. It is terrible to generalize that into a larger scale to make blacks looks better. I do not care who you are or what you look like, you should treat everyone with respect and follow the law. Trump said it best yesterday that we are all American in the end.

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 3 months, 1 week ago

Did you feel a swish going over your head? You didn't get my post at all, did you? You are a credit to your race.

Greg Cooper 3 months ago

"Your point proves nothing other than you worked at a store where whites decided to steal more than any other color." And your clever riposte proves nothing other than that you are predisposed to the thought that blacks steal more often than whites. Yeah, we are all Americans in the end, but it's the predceding time that really counts, that time during which we Americans are subjected to racial, sexual, age and whatever discrimination.

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 3 months, 1 week ago

Okay, lets go to the sources, instead of relying on the media, that conservatives love to hate. Here are two websites of groups that are opposed to each other. One was in Charlottesville to protest the removal of a traitor's statue. The others were part of the counter demonstration Which is more violent than the other.

https://www.dailystormer.com

http://blacklivesmatter.com/guiding-principles/

I rest my case.

Bob Summers 3 months, 1 week ago

Both sides of this fracas are people with the Liberal genetic condition.

These people are emotionally hypersensitive folk

They have no choice buy to riot when emotionally aroused.

Harlan Hobbs 3 months, 1 week ago

Obviously, this is one of the most tragic events that can happen, and we all should agree that violence and hateful rhetoric are abhorrent. The persons who perpetrated this tragedy are the equivalent of terrorists and should be punished accordingly.

That being said, I am very tired of the pompous, hypocritical, and sanctimonious comments by those who refuse to call out all such behavior. Yes, the white nationalists are un-American and have no place in society. At the same time, the counter protesters are not "angels" either, but more importantly, those who yell "pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon", those who assassinate policemen, and those who burn and vandalize property while hiding behind masks, bastardize their free speech rights. In the end, they are just as abhorrent as the white nationalists and should be condemned.

Bob Summers 3 months, 1 week ago

You just described people under the influence of the Liberal gene.

Good job

Steve Hicks 3 months, 1 week ago

Spot on, Harlan.

Violence is the problem: no matter what "cause" violent people say justifies it (or ideological "spin-doctors" CLAIM was their "cause").

Violent people may, and do, have any number of "causes" to justify what they do: but they all act in the belief that other people are the problem...and that eliminating other people will eliminate the problem.

Steve Hicks 3 months, 1 week ago

So, BS 1: "Ferguson" was a police-shooting of a violent person...which one do you believe was a "leftist" ? "Baltimore"...which killing are you referencing ? "Portland"...the 2 train-passengers were killed by a white supremacist. "Berkeley"...are you referring to the LBGT activist who killed a woman during a robbery, and tried to kill another ?

And your examples should convince us that "leftists" are inherently violent...why ?

Steve Hicks 3 months, 1 week ago

Oh, I see the problem, BS 1:

I'm talking about ideologically-motivated murders, and you're talking about ideologically-motivated violent protest (or at least what your chosen ideologically-motivated media SAY was the "other side's" ideologically-motivated violent protest).

Harlan Hobbs 3 months, 1 week ago

While I am indeed a conservative, that should not matter, and I would hope that most liberals would agree. In fact, I assume that they do.

There are bad actors of all persuasions, but that should not stop us from doing everything possible to eliminate this type of behavior by anyone. Ultimately, these perpetrators are responsible for their own actions, and the fault must be laid at their feet.

Bob Smith 3 months, 1 week ago

"....If Democrats really want to stop the rise of Neo-Nazi violence, there’s a very easy way. Stop normalizing black nationalism and the Alt-Left. End the racist witch hunts for white privilege. Make it clear that street violence is unacceptable and that racism is bad no matter who it comes from. Allow people you disagree with to express their views without trying to destroy their lives..." http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/267562/one-easy-way-democrats-can-stop-neo-nazis-daniel-greenfield

Steve Hicks 3 months, 1 week ago

Right, BS1, that's exactly the kind of "your chosen ideologically-motivated media" SAYING what was the "other side's" ideologically-motivated violent protest, that I was referring to.

Did you pick up on that article's subtitle: "Charlottesville is what happens when the Left empowers extremists." ?

But that's only stating again the point of your original comment, isn't it: that leftists got what they deserved...and it's their own fault when some unhinged person murder them ?

And how is the fact you found a one-note ideologue hate-monger online, who bloviates exactly the same lies you do, supposed to persuade honest people that your view is rational...and true ?

Bob Smith 3 months, 1 week ago

"...But that's only stating again the point of your original comment, isn't it: that leftists got what they deserved...and it's their own fault when some unhinged person murder them ?..." Interesting fantasy you have there, SH, but no, that wasn't my point. There's an old saying about sowing the wind you might be interested in.

Steve Hicks 3 months, 1 week ago

My apologies, BS1, if your original comment wasn't saying "leftists" got what they deserved, and had nobody to blame but themselves...

But if you weren't saying that, how did posting a wing-nut "news" article saying exactly that, support your argument ...if that wasn't your argument ?

Steve Hicks 3 months, 1 week ago

Not just interested in it, BS1, certain of it. First because the Bible says that's the way it is, and 2nd because that's how reality always works, to my observation.

It's a good passage of scripture for those of the "Conservative" delusion (especially those of the "Christian Conservative" delusion) to ponder, because it tells WHY people "reap the whirlwind" (Hosea 8:1-7).

God is warning that people "...transgressed My covenant and rebelled against my law." Don't have to be too theologically technical to get it: The "covenant" and the "law" boils down to simple stuff: do right, and God will bless you.

The opposite teaching is in ascendance today. The serpent told Adam and Eve that breaking God's rules would make them as smart as God: the same way Trump told his followers that doing wrong and stupid things would "make America great again." And how is Ronald Reagan's proclamation that "government is the PROBLEM" not the essence of rebellion ?

So what's "doing right" consist of ? Again, simple stuff. Another prophet, Micah, sums it up this way: "do justice, lover mercy, and walk humbly with thy God." None of the arrogance, lies, and violence towards others that we see daily from America's current rulers fits any category of these "right" actions.

"Conservative Christians" were instrumental in "...set[ting] up kings, but not by Me..." They're the main ones claiming, "My God, we...know you." Their actions show they're deceiving themselves on that score, and God promises they ESPECIALLY will "reap the whirlwind" for their lies.

I'm hoping many "Christian Conservatives," as they begin to perceive the beginning of the whirlwind for which they bear so much responsibility, will re-think their political self-delusion. (P.S. The technical theological term for "re-think" is "repent.")

Bob Smith 3 months, 1 week ago

SH**, you're "going" to "exhaust" the world's "supply" of "scare quotes" if you "keep" this "up".

Steve Hicks 3 months, 1 week ago

BS, BS, BS, we've talked about your "quotation marks" distraction/fetish before. This time, please pay attention.

The quotation marks I used above were to 1.) show I was quoting someone else's words exactly (since those quotations were from the Bible, it was especially important here to indicate which words were scripture's, and differentiate them from mine): 2.) to indicate that some group or quantity is "so-called:" 3.) in the last sentence, the quotation marks set off a word being talked about.

And the words you've set off in quotation marks...why did you do so, please ?

Gary Stussie 3 months, 1 week ago

While virtually every 21st American views slavery as a barbaric chapter in the history of the United States, I question the value of systematically erasing, from the history books and public consciousness, the names, pictures, statues and famous quotes of long dead slave holders/slavery supporters from the town squares in which they were born, the universities that they founded or to which they greatly contributed, and the government buildings in which they toiled.

Charlottesville gathering was initially intended as a protest against removal of statue of Confederate General Robert E. Lee.

Modern history downplays the fact that the Civil War was started primarily over state’s rights, not over slavery. Fort Sumter was fired upon in April 1861, President Lincoln, fearing the North was losing the war, signed the Emancipation Proclamation (freeing only Southern slaves) in January 1863.

Interestingly, when General Robert E. Lee – the Southern General currently being targeted - surrendered to Ulysses S. Grant, it had been nearly 20 years since Lee owned slaves—he freed his slaves in the late 1840s. In 1856, five years before the Civil War started, he wrote that slavery was "a moral and political evil." On the other hand, General Grant – the northern General - still owned slaves at the end of the Civil War.

Today, over 150 years after the Emancipation Proclamation was signed, the concept of slavery is so abhorrent to free people, such as ourselves, that despite the facts that at the peak of black slavery in the South, only 6 percent of Southern whites owned slaves and remarkedly few of the 600,000 or so white soldiers who died in the Civil War actually owned slaves, the entire south continues to pay the price for being on the wrong side of history!

Cary Ediger 3 months, 1 week ago

I've heard this a few times.... still amuses me.

Theodore Calvin 3 months, 1 week ago

The states rights argument is getting tired and worn from the radical right. They use it when it fits their narrative. It gets even funnier when the states claim that local is best, but then trample county and municipal law with their onerous state regulations. It's always about perspective and relativity...and ideology.

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 3 months, 1 week ago

And don't you love the way the Nazis travel from all over the country to tell a city which statues they can have in their city?

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 3 months, 1 week ago

Statues honor people, not just remember them. Would you expect a descendent of a Holocaust survivor to walk past a statue of Hitler every day? Why do you think it's okay to force a descendent of slaves and lynched men to walk past statues honoring men who defended this immoral institution.

Do you think that Germany should erect statues and monuments honoring the brave Nazi soldiers, many who weren't really Nazis or involved in the gas chambers? Maybe a nice statue of Hitler outside the concentration camp museums. You know history sites which honor the victims, not the perpetrators. At least many Germans could claim that they didn't know about these concentration camps. But every Confederate soldier knew about slaves, and many of those soldiers aspired to own a few of their own. And they were duped into believing that it was the Union keeping them from achieving their goal of being a rich plantation owner, and not the plantation owners themselves who were stopping them.

Where are all the statues of slaves? Where are all the statues honoring the men who were ruthlessly lynched for no reason? The "defenders" of these statues will tell you that the civil war wasn't about slavery. They will tell you how good the slaves had it. They will tell you it was a blessing that African men and women were ripped from their families to go and slave in a more "advanced" society, then they will tell you it was okay, because other Africans helped them. They will tell you that Blacks can't be educated, despite the fact that the confederacy, they so admire, made it illegal to teach a slave to read. Never mind that just until the recent past, people who love these statues supported separate, but unequal schools. Know we have a generation of educated Blacks who are sick and tired of walking past these symbols of their oppression. Sorry your heroes, are so hated. Maybe you should get better heroes.

PS, I don't like Grant either, if that would make you feel better.

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 3 months, 1 week ago

So, Gary, will we see you marching with these guys at their next gathering to save the statues? I think there is one planned in Texas . Bought your tiki torch and polo shirt yet?

Steve Hicks 3 months, 1 week ago

Gary, you understand that the Confederate officials and generals honored by statues throughout the South were all people who, when being commissioned in the U.S. military or taking office in the U.S. government, had formally taken oaths to uphold and defend the Constitution, the government, and the people of the United States.

They all subsequently made war on the United States. Doing so, they broke their oath, chose to rebel against their own country, willfully turned traitor. If they are "on the wrong side of history," it's because human beings unanimously consider treason one of the worst possible sins.

If there's a statue somewhere in the United States honoring Benedict Arnold, I think we'd all agree it should be removed. If some people in "The South" (and elsewhere) can't see why the same applies to Confederate traitors, it's probably because they choose tribal thinking ("OUR traitors") over honest thinking.

(Yes, I realize there is a monument to Benedict Arnold's "loyal" leg. It can stay.)

William Cummings 3 months, 1 week ago

Steve: Actually, there is a statute honoring Benedict Arnold at the Saratoga battlefield, [where he fought on the side of the colonies] however, it does not mention him by name. http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/boot-monument

Arnold was badly injured in the leg during the battle thus the "boot" memorial. Legend has it that, in response to an inquiry from Arnold as to what the Americans would do if they ever caught him “They will cut off the leg which was wounded when you were fighting so gloriously for the cause of liberty, and bury it with the honors of war, and hang the rest of your body on a gibbet.”

All of which seems to be an appropriate memorial for the traitor that he was.

Bob Smith 3 months, 1 week ago

SH**, did you ever read: "With Malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds." Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/abrahamlin138222.html Seems like you are neck-deep in malice these days.

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 3 months, 1 week ago

"Jews won't replace us." "Blood and soil"? I do not hold a grudge against people In the South. I do not hold a grudge against Germans. But I will not allow the past's ugly philosophies and scum beliefs rear their ugly heads, whether they are wearing swastika, hoods, or polo shirts.

Steve Hicks 3 months, 1 week ago

The way forgiveness works, BS, is that the sinner has to recognize, and admit, that they've done wrong, and ask to be forgiven.

If a person refuses to admit they've done wrong, how repentant do YOU think they are ? And if a person isn't repentant, how can they be forgiven ?

When Sam Brownback (to take a modern example) recognizes the harm he's done, and is willing to confess to it, asking forgiveness, I'll certainly forgive him.

Likewise, BS, I'm always ready to forgive, not gloat at, Trump-voters honest enough to admit they made a mistake. I've made mistakes: I've done stupid things that endanger peoples' lives: so I can forgive that in others.

But nobody can forgive people who keep arguing they haven't done anything wrong.

Bob Smith 3 months ago

SH**, I hope you aren't holding your breath while you wait for people to confess their sins to you and ask for your forgiveness.

Steve Hicks 3 months ago

BS, you really don't seem to know much about repentance. Not a zinger, just an honest question: have you never felt you needed to repent of anything you did or said ?

The way it works is that you confess the wrong you've done to the people hurt by it. They are the ones from whom you need to ask forgiveness. So people who played any part in giving the current president the power to do our country the harm he's done, technically need to be forgiven by everyone in America, don't you think ?

What scripture says is "confess your sins to one another." All human beings are on both sides of the dynamic: everyone needs to ask another person's forgiveness at some time, and needs to forgive those who repent at other times.

It's mutual, BS. Remember how earlier in this thread I apologized when you said I'd misunderstood one of your posts ? I questioned whether what you said you meant actually was your intended meaning, or just self-deception. But rightly or wrongly, you THOUGHT I'd wronged you: so I apologized.

That's how it works.

Gary Stussie 3 months ago

Hitler ...really ... Here you go Dorothy ... Prior to the American Civil War, slave ownership had been an element of nearly every civilization from early Egyptian to Native American. In the fledgling United States it was considered economically necessary, socially acceptable and was legal. Pretty easy to condemn 150 years after the fact!

How long will it be before Abortion is viewed as the next barbaric chapter in this country’s history?.

I suggest that just like slavery as left an indelible blot on our reputation as a country, a more “civilized society” will eventually label and treat the individuals and organizations that so vigorously and vocally support the Right to Choose with the same disdain, and in a similar manner, as the individuals and institutions that supported slavery.

Today abortion is considered socially acceptable by many and is legal.

Support for abortion rights is considered necessary to membership in the Progressive, feminist movement. While the recent Woman’s March on Washington did not officially declared itself as pro-choice, its partners included organizations that are widely known to advocate and promote pro-choice principles (Planned Parenthood, the National Organization for Women, the Center for Reproductive Rights, and NARAL Pro-Choice America). More telling was the fact that Pro-Life groups were not contacted by the Women's March on Washington organizers.

Millennials are being programmed by the educational system to blankly accept the Progressive suggestion that anyone opposed to unfettered abortion is supporting a War-on-Women. One line and on video, young women point to their “I had an Abortion” bumper stickers and tee shirts, viewing them as confirmation of the fact that they have paid the dues and are card-carrying feminists.

Gary Stussie 3 months ago

In the pre- Roe v Wade United States (before 1973), a woman’s world, especially in the areas of sex and reproduction, was markedly different.

In the 70’s the social stigma of being pregnant out of wedlock was enormous. Sex education was the exclusive prerogative of the parent with the result that many a high school senior was convinced that French kissing caused pregnancy. Birth control methods were few, not readily available, harsh and more than occasionally ineffective. Single, sexually naive women often did not know, or admit to themselves, that they might be pregnant until well in to their 1st trimester. Pregnancy testing required a doctor visit. A woman could not legally and safely terminate an unwanted pregnancy. Pre-natal testing for fetal chromosomal abnormalities and infections was based upon sampling amniotic fluid, limited to later stages of the pregnancy, and carried with it significant risk to both mother and baby. Rape and incest were taboo subjects, the pregnant outcome of which generally went undiscovered until the victim started showing. For a 70’s era unmarried woman, the “Choice” was abstinence, adoption, back alley abortion, shotgun wedding or the social stigma of being an unwed mother.

As we greet 2018, out of wedlock births might be considered the norm and, for celebrities, seem to be a cause for celebration. Sex education typically starts in the 5th grade. Over 20 different highly effective birth control methods are covered by the ACA or available free of charge at local clinics. In many of our cities, condoms are handed out in elementary schools. At home pregnancy tests can let a woman know she has conceived short hours after a liaison and over-the-counter “morning after” treatment can ensure a woman, who did not use birth control or who’s birth control failed her, does not conceive. Remarkably safe and accurate fetal pre-natal testing, in the 1st trimester, is based upon a blood sample from the mother. Society is much more open to discussing rape and incest and more supportive of the victims.

Gary Stussie 3 months ago

I believe that Conservative, white haired old men like myself, have no right to condemn a woman to carry a child of rape or incest; carry a child determined to have life impacting chromosomal abnormalities or defects; or carry a child in cases where pregnancy truly places her life at risk. However, the overwhelming majority of all abortions (95%) are done as a means of birth control. Only 1% are performed because of rape or incest; 1% because of fetal abnormalities; and 3% due to the mother's health problems.

Conversely, for Liberals to insist that a woman’s right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy, and stop a beating heart, should extend to the point at which the baby has crowned is incomprehensible.

With nearly 60,000,000 (that's 60 Million with an M) total abortions in the United States since Roe v. Wade was decided in 1973 perhaps it is time that Pro-Life and Pro-Choice were abandoned in favor of Pro-Responsibility.

Steve Hicks 3 months ago

Gary, you realize that the most pro-abortion laws in the United States, pre-Roe v. Wade, were in California ? And signed into law by Governor Ronald Reagan, because it was a "conservative" principle that government has no right to interfere in individuals' reproductive decisions ?

That the same "conservative" principle was the basis of the Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade decision ?

That Ronald Reagan came out as "pro-life" when he wanted the "Moral Majority's" voting-bloc on his tally-sheet for president in 1980 ?

That the Republican Party has claimed to be "pro-life" for the past 37 years...and has done nothing to stop abortion, despite being in control of the levers of federal power (executive. legislative, and judicial) numerous times during that period (and in control of all three simultaneously for 6 years during the Bush 2 administration, and for the last 6 months) ? (Compare the 2 years it took Republicans to challenge Obamacare, which they honestly hated, in the Supreme Court.)

Gary, you've been played, and are being played, by "conservative" deceivers.

Please wake up. Stop believing liars.

Gary Stussie 3 months ago

Steve, you seemed concerned with pointing fingers. My point was that at the time slaver, like abortion, was considered economically necessary, socially acceptable and was legal.

If nothing else we should demand consistency. The left seems to be eager to erase the legacy and contributions of many of this country’s founding fathers and elected representatives who, in the earliest days of our republic, spoke in favor of slavery or actually owned slaves (41 of the 56 Signers owned slaves).

They estimate that about 4M Africans were brought to the United States (80% of the people ripped from their lives in Africa went to South America). At the time of the Civil War there were about 12M original slaves and their off-spring in the US.

Compare that to 60M abortions! I suspect that it won't take 155 years for a more “civilized society” (probably the next generation of lefties) to label and treat the individuals and organizations that so vigorously and vocally support the Right to Choose with the same disdain.

Who in the Pro-Choice movement will be the Jefferson Davis or the General Lee? Will Planned Parenthood be the equivalent of Andersonville Prison?

Can you imagine running for elected office if your Great, Great, Great, Grandmother has her picture on the web wearing her "I had an Abortion" tee-shirt?

Steve Hicks 3 months ago

Gary, that some "founding fathers" had slaves is beside the point. They are honored for their part in building this country. Is it honest...by the current president or yourself...to compare honoring them to honoring those whose intention was to destroy this country, because the traitors also had slaves ?

Some people on these threads, who have a myopic "right/left" view of everything, seem to consider I'm a "leftist." If you're one of them, you needn't wait for the "next generation of lefties" to realize abortion is murder. I realized that when Reagan signed California's permissive abortion law in 1968 (as a Goldwater conservative at the time, I was interested to see what a conservative governor would do). That was also when I realized that the conservative principle of "individual rights" was no protection against, but rather justified, a great many evils.

The 49 years since have confirmed me in both views.

Again, Gary, if you operate by the "conservative=pro-life=GOOD" mindset you show here, you're being played by lying manipulators. Their only interest is that you keep thinking the way they want you to, so you'll continue to be prey for their evil purposes.

You might want to view them, as Jesus said, by their "fruits." If that national political faction is as "pro-life" as they claim, why have they done nothing against abortion at the federal level ? They've had the power, and many opportunities, in the last 37 years. Do you get the suspicion that maybe they don't actually care about abortion, except as an "issue" that's served them well for hoodwinking clueless voters ?

Wake up, Gary.

Steve Hicks 3 months ago

A member of Robert E. Lee's family had a sane take on these events: that Confederate symbols represented something evil, and she didn't want her relative remembered that way.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w172vgh803qtl27

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