Archive for Thursday, October 20, 2016

Catholic leader in Kansas criticizes Kaine

October 20, 2016

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A Catholic leader in Kansas, where Tim Kaine grew up, is calling the vice presidential candidate an "orthodox" Democrat and a "cafeteria Catholic."

Archbishop Joseph Naumann of Kansas City said in his weekly column that Kaine is "picking and choosing the teachings of the Catholic Church that are politically convenient." Kaine grew up in Overland Park and attended a Jesuit high school in nearby Kansas City, Missouri.

At times, his governing choices as Virginia's governor and senator have run directly against his Catholicism.

Kaine is morally opposed to the death penalty but signed off on 11 executions during his four years as governor. After opposing gay marriage in his 2005 gubernatorial run, he later supported it. He's personally against abortion but has consistently voted in favor of abortion rights.

Comments

David Holroyd 12 months ago

Mr. Kaine said he was opposed to the death penalty but his job as Governor was to enact the laws of Virginia. So what did the Archibishop not hear?

Archbishop, Mr. Kaine is a politician. Apparently the Jesuit High School trained him well to be such. What does that say about Rockhurst?

Is it possible Archibishop Naumann that many in the catholic church are "cafeteria" catholics as you refer to them as such?

I mean, after all, who want the same lunch day after day...:)better to have some salad of choice and pasta of choice and maybe even a selection of fresh fruit and pie and cake.

If Mr. Kaine becomes VP, Rockhurst will tout the win and the catholic community as well.

Bob Forer 12 months ago

"Picking and choosing the teachings of the Catholic Church that are politically convenient."

Hmmmm..... seems like Catholic leaders do that when they attack Catjholic Democratic politicians who are pro-choice but ignore Republican Catholics who are pro-death penalty and do not support governmental programs to feed, heal and house the poor.

Seems pretty hypocritical to me.

Scott Burkhart 12 months ago

Bob, I'm going to break my silence on these threads just to correct a misconception that you have about Catholic dogma. The teachings of the Catholic Church do not view abortion and capital punishment as equals. You can be a devout Catholic and support the death penalty. Not so for abortion under any circumstance.

Greg Cooper 12 months ago

That's interesting, Scott. I was not aware of that. Could you tell me why causing death is appropriate in one case but not the other, according to Catholic doctrine? I'm really interested, not just trolling. Thanks.

Brock Masters 12 months ago

I believe that the Catholic Church opposes the death penalty, but not absolutely sure. I am absolutely sure the Catholic Church I attend is opposed to it.

Scott Burkhart 12 months ago

Brock, I don't doubt that the priest and parishioners stand opposed to capital punishment, as do I. I am speaking of the official teachings of the Church. For you and Greg, I have looked up the pertinent paragraphs in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The last two paragraphs is where the Archbishop is clearly teaching, through the Magisterium of the Church.

"The traditional teaching of the Church does not exclude, presupposing full ascertainment of the identity and responsibility of the offender, recourse to the death penalty, when this is the only practicable way to defend the lives of human beings effectively against the aggressor.

If, instead, bloodless means are sufficient to defend against the aggressor and to protect the safety of persons, public authority should limit itself to such means, because they better correspond to the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.

Today, in fact, given the means at the state’s disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender today . . . are very rare, if not practically non-existent. (CCC 2267)"

"2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law."

"2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunica­ tion to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a com­pleted abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae, ” 77 “by the very commission of the offense,” 78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. 79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society."

"2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human indi­vidual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:"

Barb Gordon 12 months ago

Pope Frances: "When the death penalty is applied, it is not for a current act of aggression, but rather for an act committed in the past. It is also applied to persons whose current ability to cause harm is not current, as it has been neutralized -- they are already deprived of their liberty."

Scott Burkhart 12 months ago

Barb, I was merely responding to Greg's query as to what I could cite that shows the Catholic Church does not equivocate capital punishment with abortion. I showed the specific paragraphs that support this. I don't understand the point of your entry. Are you telling me that Pope Francis is firmly against capital punishment? So? That doesn't change the dogmatic instruction of the Church nor does it point out any inconsistencies either.

Donald Davidson 12 months ago

Not according to recent popes, who were all very much opposed to the death penalty and stated time and again it was contrary to the faith. The Americans bishops appointed by John Paul II and Benedict have all been more representatives of the GOP than the church. Anything they say about any politician is suspect.

Alex Landazuri 12 months ago

Sound more like he realizes that his religious beliefs are his and that not everyone thinks the same way he does. Also sounds like he remembers that there is a separation of church and state. Finally someone that remembers that!

Scott Burkhart 12 months ago

Alex, our faith compels us to stand in defense of the moral good regardless of whether we hold an elected office or not. If a Catholic cannot hold an office and stand against an intrinsic evil, they should not hold that office.

Barb Gordon 12 months ago

By that reasoning, no Catholics should ever be in the executive or judicial branches, as they'd be forced to uphold the law and the constitution. They should only be in the legislative branch.

Scott Burkhart 12 months ago

Here is a perfect example of liberal thinking. The judicial branch of government is to interpret the Constitution and apply the law. It was never established to make law as it does today. The executive branch of government is to enforce the law of the land. Not ignore it as it does today. Any other stupid comments for me, today, Barb?

Barb Gordon 11 months, 4 weeks ago

Wow. Et cum spiritu tuo. Before you call a comment "stupid," you should verify that it isn't actually a fault in the reader. I said that they'd have to uphold "the law and the Constitution, " meaning that the executive branch upholds the law and the judicial branch upholds the Constitution. Because that's how it works, my dear.

They do not "make laws" in the judicial branch now. That claim is usually made by someone who merely disagrees with a decision the court made and would consider decisions with which they agreed to be just interpreting. The Constitution was not made by Catholics. It is not always going to align with Catholic dogma. Judges will have to rule on things with which they disagree - for example, a judge may have to sentence someone to the death penalty at times, or they must allow a woman to exercise her right to an abortion. Judges used to have to uphold the then-constitutional practice of slavery. They were NOT in the position of changing that law. Therefore if, by your reasoning, a Catholic must always stand against things that Catholics believe is "evil," Catholics cannot work in the judicial branch because they could not do their job. And they'd be hard-pressed to justify working as a governor, too, because they'd then have to enforce laws with which they disagreed.

Noli esse stultus and bless your heart.

Justin Hoffman 12 months ago

Flip, flop. Flip, flop. Typical liberal.

Alex Landazuri 12 months ago

or maybe someone who realizes their religion and beliefs are someone else's? im catholic and realize that not everyone shares my beliefs. also, there is that pesky little separation of church and state thing.....

Scott Burkhart 12 months ago

Alex, that was the attitude of southern slave owners in the early 19th century when the New England abolitionists were stirring up trouble over the slavery issue.

Michael Kort 12 months ago

If the Arch Bishop thinks that Kaine is " picking and choosing " Catholic Values, then he needs to find out what the Pope ( his leader ) had to say about Donald Trumps Values before walking back his own statements, in an attempt to remove himself from our electioneering process .

The Arch Bishop is Intitled to his opinions and I know many Catholics who are nice people .

On he other hand a Trump Presidency would mean an even greater windfall for the rich, the further disabling of the saftey net for the poor and would turn one ethnic group against another, as he is a master at motivating others out of their fears of each other .( DUHHH ) .

In this world, everyday people are the hands and feet of God, when it comes to answering the prayers of others in need, thru simple acts of kindness...........and true acts of kindness are not "sponsored" by Donald J Trump unless it is to buy his approval for his purposes with other people's money footing the bill, so you kind of have to ask yourself who Donald J Trump represents in this world ? .

Hint......it ain't the Catholic Church or Jessus !

Greg DiVilbiss 12 months ago

How is letting "the rich" keep the money that they earned a windfall? A windfall would be taking the money they earned and giving it to someone else they would be the recipient of a windfall.

Kendall Simmons 12 months ago

How is money obtained via cheating "earned"???

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 12 months ago

And is by underpaying their workers, so us tax payers have to help feed their workers? And how is inherited money "earned"? By kissing the back side of your rich relative?

Richard Quinlan 12 months ago

The Archbishop should heed the practice in the US not to mix church and state.

Greg Cooper 12 months ago

I saw that what Trump said was a childish, unsupported, vicious attack on Hillary that had the Catholics booing and the thinking part of the nation embarrassed for the Regressive candidate.

That you agree with his comment is indicative of the fact that you don't know the facts or care to find out.

Alex Landazuri 12 months ago

trump DOES NOT speak for me. i am not a sociopathic meglomaniac who will say anything to get elected. he will screw this country worse that hillary will

Cille King 12 months ago

Of the part that I saw, the audience did not think what Trump said was funny. They were embarrassed for him, and booed.

Greg Cooper 12 months ago

Bart, you're entirely correct for the wrong reason. It was hilarious to watch Trump nearly complete his ongoing self destruction. and, yes, Trump speaks for "us", "us" being those of you who haven't a clue as to what he's all about other than the absolute denial of the democratic process of the nation, the actual workings of the political and governmental systems we employ.

Greg Cooper 12 months ago

Great idea, Bart: tear down the very system that allows idiotic, unreasonable "ideals" such as yours to exist. Makes perfect sense.

And, Donald Trump can not "tear it down". Perhaps you need to take some elementary courses in political reality, such as this election. This system allows nut cases to run for the highest position in the land without breaking, without being damaged. The upshot is that the democratic republic will endure so that you and yours can continue berating the very system that allows you to whine.

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 12 months ago

I think we are going to take a collection for Bart, so he can move to Russia after Trump loses. Who's in?

Kendall Simmons 12 months ago

Did you miss HER turn? Did you miss the crowd booing Trump? Apparently you must have, because Hillary won, hands down.

Donald Davidson 12 months ago

And did you see him being booed and see the embarrassment of Cardinal Dolan, who is not a friend of the Democratic party to begin with. Trump was very inappropriate, but then that is the usual for him.

Bob Forer 12 months ago

You think Trump speaks the truth, Bart?

So I guess you like to "grab her by the _ " just like your buddy.

Greg DiVilbiss 12 months ago

I would say the reaction coming from Catholic Leadership is more of a reaction to the leaked Wikileaks emails from the DNC regarding the Catholic Church, then anything that Tim Kaine has done.

Greg Cooper 12 months ago

And, it wasn't even Clinton who disparaged the Church. Does anyone see that? It was an advisor, an employee, not the candidate. Sheesh!

Donald Davidson 12 months ago

Who were also Catholics and who said nothing that I haven't heard said by devout practicing Catholics everywhere since the 1970's.

Bob Summers 12 months ago

It' too bad Bishop Naumann is not Imam Naumann.

Then the people with the Liberal condition would praise him.

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 12 months ago

You do know that the Muslims are anti-abortion too. They have a lot in common with Catholics actually. They don't like gays, they think women can't be leaders, and they think they have the only answers.

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 12 months ago

So Kaine has been a public servant, who has taken an oath to uphold the constitution, right? So, we have this thing in the first Amendment "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." Does this mean no good Catholic should run for office, unless they promise to turn the country into a Catholic theocracy? You know that was the argument some had for not voting for JFK. Catholics do not have to get abortions. No one has to get an abortion. It's their choice, according to their religious beliefs. They may not be Catholic. Why does the Bishop think our laws should be determined by the Pope, a preacher, a rabbi, an imam? We are NOT a theocracy, never have been, and hopefully never will be. Freedom to follow whatever religion you wish or not to follow any religion is a right. And even a "God given right". There is that little thing called "free will" at least in Christianity. Not sure about some other religions.

Calvin Anders 12 months ago

I'm sure that the Archbishop cares deeply about Tim Kaine's record as it pertains to the Archbishop's interpretation of Catholic dogma. But how many voters, Catholic or otherwise, really care about strict adherence to all the rules of one's espoused faith? And how many voters would rather their leaders act only within the boundaries of what would meet the approval of the leadership of their faith? My bet is that is a very small number (clergy not withstanding). I don't fault the Archbishop for his criticism, but I do hope Catholic and non-Catholic voters alike see how little relevance this critique should carry.

Ken Lassman 12 months ago

Kaine can be a good Catholic and uphold the laws of the land that protect the rights of individuals and groups who have a different set of tenets that they believe in. That's called Freedom of Religion. By upholding the law, he is not personally committing abortion so is therefore maintaining his catholic creed.

JM Andy 12 months ago

Who cares what those sick f*cks have to say? They allow(ed) institutional child rape for decades (centuries?!). They are no moral authority.

Let's also remind the "Archbishop" that the Constitution governs our country, not the religious affiliation of our politicians. Even though that concept escapes most "christians".

Michael Kort 12 months ago

Billionaire Warren Buffet would probably be the first to complain that his Secratary pays a higher tax rate than he does !

Why....he has already done that ( complain )!........and he really doesn't' flip burgers at Dairy Queen........but he makes money off the people who do and the people who work at Nebraska Furniture Mart, he doesn't work on his pipelines or his railroad,.......or even run them himself.......but many people do.......and the Bucks Flow Up Hill at an incredible rate .

A billion is 1,000 million .

70 billion is 70,000 million........and it all comes up hill from somewhere ? to himself !

Henery Ford had a radical idea in his day........he decided to pay his employees enough money that the could AF-FORD to buy a Ford Automobile !

If the economy falters and all of you who are for "the billionaires rights to pick the economies carcus clean" are kicked to the curb because of joblessness or the ravages of sudden inflation that way exceeds your salary growth,.... guess what ?....

Those guys will be on a ( their ) private jet to elsewhere looking down at the passing cloud cover and thinking about what they will have for lunch !.....while you sit at the curb with a tin cup begging ! Not unlike many employed folks who work hard, but who really exist off of welfare as it is, and their meager salaries that pencil pushers will only allow them to have .

Go back and look up the upper bracket tax rates in the 50's when America had a growing middle class and Happy Days was part of real daily life, as opposed to being a TV show .

I think that some will be amazed by what they learn by looking up historical tax rate facts durring such a time of great prosperity for many back when being a millionaire meant something .

Michael Kort 12 months ago

Let me save you who oppose taxing the obsessively rich some work .

See and behold the joke of the century sold to the middle class to make them disappear .

http://web.stanford.edu/class/polisci120a/immigration/Federal%20Tax%20Brackets.pdf

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