Archive for Wednesday, November 30, 2016

Kobach, without evidence, supports Trump’s false claim of ‘millions’ of illegal votes

The Kansas State Board of Canvassers, which includes Gov. Sam Brownback, Secretary of State Kris Kobach, Deputy Attorney General Athena Andaya, met Wednesday to certify results of the 2016 elections in Kansas. Kobach said afterward that he accepts President-elect Donald Trump's false assertion that the number of illegal votes cast in the election exceeded Democrat Hillary Clinton's margin of victory in the popular vote.

The Kansas State Board of Canvassers, which includes Gov. Sam Brownback, Secretary of State Kris Kobach, Deputy Attorney General Athena Andaya, met Wednesday to certify results of the 2016 elections in Kansas. Kobach said afterward that he accepts President-elect Donald Trump's false assertion that the number of illegal votes cast in the election exceeded Democrat Hillary Clinton's margin of victory in the popular vote.

November 30, 2016, 10:33 a.m. Updated November 30, 2016, 11:14 a.m.

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— Kansas Secretary of State Kris Kobach said Wednesday, without providing evidence, that he agrees with President-elect Donald Trump’s assertion that the number of illegal votes cast in the Nov. 8 general election exceeded Democrat Hillary Clinton’s margin of victory in the popular vote.

Trump made that assertion in a Twitter post on Tuesday. It has been roundly refuted by election officials in most states.

National election totals reported so far show Clinton won the popular vote by about 2.2 million ballots, but lost the electoral vote, 306-232. Although recounts are underway in a handful of states, they are not expected to change the results.

The Kansas State Board of Canvassers, which includes Gov. Sam Brownback, Secretary of State Kris Kobach, Deputy Attorney General Athena Andaya, met Wednesday to certify results of the 2016 elections in Kansas. Kobach said afterward that he accepts President-elect Donald Trump's false assertion that the number of illegal votes cast in the election exceeded Democrat Hillary Clinton's margin of victory in the popular vote.

The Kansas State Board of Canvassers, which includes Gov. Sam Brownback, Secretary of State Kris Kobach, Deputy Attorney General Athena Andaya, met Wednesday to certify results of the 2016 elections in Kansas. Kobach said afterward that he accepts President-elect Donald Trump's false assertion that the number of illegal votes cast in the election exceeded Democrat Hillary Clinton's margin of victory in the popular vote.

Speaking with reporters after a meeting of the State Board of Canvassers, which certified the results of the election in Kansas, Kobach said as many as 3.2 million votes may have been cast illegally by non-U.S. citizens.

The Kansas State Board of Canvassers, which includes Gov. Sam Brownback, Kobach, Deputy Attorney General Athena Andaya, met Wednesday to certify results of the 2016 elections in Kansas. Kobach said afterward that he accepts President-elect Donald Trump’s assertion that the number of illegal votes cast in the election exceeded Democrat Hillary Clinton’s margin of victory in the popular vote.

Kobach said his estimate of 3.2 million illegal votes was based on a study, roundly criticized in academic circles, conducted at Old Dominion University that was based on polling data from the 2008 and 2010 elections by the Cooperative Congressional Election Survey, a project of Harvard University.

Kobach said that study estimated that as many as 11.3 percent of non-U.S. citizens living in the country, both legally and illegally, reported that they had voted in in the 2008 and 2010 elections.

Extrapolating from that, Kobach said, it would be “reasonable” to assume that 11 percent of the estimated 28 million noncitizens now living in the U.S., or 3.2 million people, voted illegally in 2016.

“Can you necessarily conclude that all of them voted for Hillary Clinton?” Kobach asked rhetorically. “No, but you can probably conclude that a very high percentage voted for Hillary Clinton given the diametric opposite positions of the two candidates on the immigration issue.”

In fact, however, Kobach overstated the study’s findings, which were originally published in the journal Electoral Studies.

“Our best guess, based upon extrapolations from the portion of the sample with a verified vote, is that 6.4 percent of non-citizens voted in 2008 and 2.2 percent of non-citizens voted in 2010,” the authors of that study, Jesse Richman and David Earnest, wrote in an Oct. 24, 2014, blog post on the Washington Post website.

Kobach would not comment on the possibility he may receive an appointment in the incoming Trump administration. But last week, he met personally with Trump and was photographed going into the meeting holding a “strategic plan” for the Department of Homeland Security, portions of which were visible to cameras.

That document included, among other things, proposed changes to the National Voter Registration Act, which plaintiffs in a federal lawsuit have used to block enforcement of a Kansas law that Kobach championed, requiring new voters in Kansas to show proof of U.S. citizenship in order to register.

Related story: Trump team struggles for proof of his charge of vote fraud

By Anita Kumar and David Goldstein, McClatchy Washington Bureau (Tribune News Service)

WASHINGTON — President-elect Donald Trump’s team strove Monday to back up his claim of vote fraud, though they produced no evidence and two reports they did cite were from years ago and did not point to fraud even then.

Trump set off the brouhaha by charging Sunday that millions of people had voted illegally and deprived him of a popular-vote victory, and also that there was unspecified vote fraud in three states he lost: California, New Hampshire and Virginia.

“I won the popular vote if you deduct the millions of people who voted illegally,” Trump said in one tweet.

As independent fact-checkers said there was no evidence of either charge, Trump spokesman Jason Miller referred to two reports in the past.

“So all these are studies and examples of where there have been issues of both voter fraud and illegal immigrants voting,” Miller told reporters.

One was a Washington Post story from 2014 about whether voting by noncitizens could decide control of the Senate. But those results were subsequently challenged.

The other was a Pew Charitable Trust report from 2012 that found that state voter registration lists were not up-to-date, largely because of poor record keeping. It found that 2.75 million people at that time were registered in more than one state, that 1.8 million names on state voter registrations were for dead people and that 1 out of every 8 voter registrations was either invalid or “significantly inaccurate.”

But the primary author of the Pew study said fraud was not a factor.

“They are misinterpreting” with regard to any finding of fraud, said David Becker, who at the time was the director of Pew’s elections program. “I oversaw the entire report, start to finish. There was not a finding of fraud whatsoever.”

Becker, now the executive director for the Center for Election Innovation and Research, said the report looked into inefficiencies of the voter registration system that led to out-of-date records remaining on the lists.

“These were not results from fraud or any intentional act,” he said, but the result of not “keeping up with people as they move and some cases when they die.”

Myrna Perez, director of voting rights and elections project at Brennan Center for Justice at the New York University School of law, said that numbers like 2.75 million people being registered to vote in two states might sound like fraud. But it doesn’t mean people are voting in two states. It just means they moved between elections and haven’t changed, or been notified to change, their former registrations.

“There has been no evidence produced to substantiate a claim like that,” White House press secretary Josh Earnest said Monday before referring reporters to the Trump transition team.

Cristobal Alex, the president of Latino Victory Fund, which works to have Latinos reflected at every level of government, said the allegations are “outright false and have been debunked many times.”

“The president-elect of the United States should not be casting doubts or spreading lies about the election results, but then again this isn’t the first time that Trump cries wolf on voter fraud,” he said.

Comments

Phillip Chappuie 11 months, 3 weeks ago

I'm afraid this is just the beginning. This is the kind of stuff that will keep that concept of American being great pretty hard to live up to. Blatant fear mongering based on zero data is not exactly a value or virtue in this country. Their claimed numbers are literally insane by any standard.

Marc Wilborn 11 months, 3 weeks ago

For a minute I thought that you were talking about Jill Stein and her efforts in regards to the vote recount where no evidence of tampering exists. Idiots on both sides.

Bob Forer 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Are you lost on the profound differences in your analogy? One is the President - elect. The other person is irrelevant.

Barb Gordon 11 months, 3 weeks ago

She's not a "both sides." She's a third-party candidate who also thinks Wi-Fi might melt kids' brains.

Barb Gordon 11 months, 3 weeks ago

It's a preamble for disenfranchising millions of voters on a national scale.

Brett McCabe 11 months, 3 weeks ago

And the world is flat - according to Breitbart, which means it must be true.

Deplorable just doesn't quite say it.

Bill Turner 11 months, 3 weeks ago

The only reason Kobach and Trump keep going on about this is because they're straining to legitimize an election which they only won because it's rigged in their favor. "I would have won the popular vote if...(3.2 million people hadn't voted illegally, I had wanted to win the popular vote, I had campaigned in California, etc.). Right. I would have won the Superbowl if I had wanted to play football in high school. I would have won the Nobel Prize in Medicine if I had taken the MCAT in college. Woulda shoulda coulda... ya lost by a country mile and still got the power, so quit your bitchin'. We'll throw you out the next time around - by popular vote, electoral vote, and by a wider margin than all the illegal immigrants combined.

Harlan Hobbs 11 months, 3 weeks ago

I love it. I hope you know that they are beating you at your own game. They say something provocative to get your panties all in a twist, and then you go "chasing the rabbit."

I have no idea how widespread illegal voting is, but I doubt that it is that significant. Given all of the obstacles that Donald Trump had to clear to win the Presidency (all he had behind him was the common man and woman and an uncanny ability to take the spotlight), if voter fraud had been significant (outside of California perhaps, where Clinton made her entire margin and more in the popular vote), then he likely wouldn't have won.

No matter what Jill Stein thinks, the election is over, and as Obama said repeatedly, "elections have consequences." The libs better get over it, or they are going to have a miserable eight years and probably beyond.

Brett McCabe 11 months, 3 weeks ago

It's an odd country where the potential president says something that questions the right to vote and the validity of a national election simply to get the citizenry of the country upset. Sounds a little like the Philippines, doesn't it?

Hypocrite is as hypocrite does. And stupid votes for him.

William Vandermeer 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Trump and Kobach are full of hot air as usual they just throw crap out there to muddy up the waters "I didn't really lose the popular vote it was those darn illegals." "The electoral college is a scam put on the american people, oh it worked in my favor, its great!" As for Mrs. Stein, she is not using taxpayer money to investigate, so she can go for it, I don't care, but why is every trumpsters got their collective panties in a bunch about this? If you are not worried about trump getting the electoral vote illegally why do you even care?

Bob Forer 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Saying "something provocative". .....

Is that a euphemism for the President-elect telling a big lie?

Marc Wilborn 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Kinda like our current president saying he found out about the HRC server from TV news.

Bob Forer 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Apparently you don't quite understand what "euphemism" means.

Did you know there are on-line dictionaries? In fact if you simply cut and past the word (no need to be a good speller) the first entry of your results will probably be a definition.

With the convenience of modern technology, there is no excuse to remain ignorant.

Marc Wilborn 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Just pointing out the obvious, Bob. Thanks for the kind words.

Bob Forer 11 months, 3 weeks ago

My pleasure. ALWAYS happy to help out.

Barb Gordon 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Sort of like you ever pretending to be anything but a Republican partisan, Marc.

Marc Wilborn 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Partisan? Put up a better candidate. Isn't that your theme song?

Harlan Hobbs 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Also, the headline is not accurate. Saying his claims are "false" means you have evidence to support that. The fact is that neither side can prove their position unless there is a serious and honest investigation.

Just let it go, and try to make life for yourself.

Brett McCabe 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Try reading. The headline doesn't say the claims is false, it says that he has no evidence. You can read, can't you?

Andrew Applegarth 11 months, 2 weeks ago

Apparently he can read better than you:

"Kobach, without evidence, supports Trump’s false claim of ‘millions’ of illegal votes"

Specifically, note the phrase "Trump's false claim"...

Barb Gordon 11 months, 2 weeks ago

Apparently, Brett knows the difference between a headline and a photo caption better than you. But let's read a little further, "In fact, however, Kobach overstated the study’s findings, which were originally published in the journal Electoral Studies." In other words, he made a false claim.

The rest of the article hesitates to go there, but the New York Times flat out called it what it is: a lie.

Harlan Hobbs 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Brett, you need a reading lesson. The headline clearly states that Trump's claims are false.

They may be, but nobody can prove it.

Also, for the last 8 years, we have had a President who had made many stupid and provocative statements, but I guess that is different. Chew on that a little.

Barb Gordon 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Trump is an alien from Planet Cheeto. Prove that he's not.

Ken Lassman 11 months, 3 weeks ago

That WOULD explain the orange hair....and his thumb-to-index-finger "OK" hand gesture that he uses so often, which is a very characteristic position for anyone eating Cheetos and wanting to keep the orange stuff from getting all over their hands. Hmmmm...I think you're onto something!

Barb Gordon 11 months, 3 weeks ago

I just love our post-truth world where we can just make things up and then whine that it must be proved false before anyone can call it a lie.

Harlan Hobbs 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Also, if you want an example of an accurate headline, read the Topeka Capital-Journal whose headline refers to Trump's claims as an "assertion." Maybe the LJW could take a lesson.

Barb Gordon 11 months, 3 weeks ago

I think the lesson they could take is from the New York Times, which called Trump's statement a lie. Because it is.

Ken Lassman 11 months, 3 weeks ago

No it's not. How about "Trump's assertion without a shred of evidence to back it up." I could go with that, if you think the word "lie" is a stretch.

Steve Jacob 11 months, 3 weeks ago

I hope we all see if Clinton won the election (OK I mean became President) Trump and his supporters would have been rioting still saying the election was stolen.

Steve Sharp 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Of course they know that their assertions of illegal voting is hooey. It's a meme that they spread so they can continue their voter suppression under the guise of protecting the sanctity of the vote. 1984 and banana republic come to mind. Kobach's interstate crosscheck flagged over 7 million voters for possible double voting but only 4 cases have ever been prosecuted. With half the country getting their news entirely from republican sources (hate radio,hate internet and Fox (so called news) this bizarre charade will continue.

Bob Forer 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Sounds like kkkobach is really really really hungry for a job in Washington.

Tracy Rogers 11 months, 3 weeks ago

I seem to remember that of the "many" fraud cases that Kobach found, (like 5 or 6 wasn't it?) most or all of them were republicans.

Bob Summers 11 months, 3 weeks ago

As if the congenital Liberal can prove there were not a million illegal votes.

How many criminal trespassers are there in the country? How many Liberal governments have given them driving licenses?

The exact terms vary by state. As of this writing in 2016, a total of 12 states plus the District of Columbia allow undocumented immigrants to obtain a driver's license. These 12 states include California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland, New Mexico, Nevada, Utah, Vermont and Washington

John Podesta: I think Teddy’s idea scratches the itch, is pretty safe and uncomplicated. On the picture ID, the one thing I have thought of in that space is that if you show up on Election Day with a drivers license with a picture, attest that you are a citizen, you have a right to vote in Federal elections.

.

Bob Forer 11 months, 3 weeks ago

You are either intellectually challenged or intellectually dishonest as evidenced by your challenge to prove non-existence, which is a logical fallacy.

Greg Cooper 11 months, 3 weeks ago

"As if the congenital Liberal can prove there were not a million illegal votes."

Bob, you really oughta take a course in the Constitution. In no place does it say that a person is guilty of a crime until proven innocent. Until your guys can delete the Constitution's protection of rights in criminal procedure, you have to live with it.

Eric Akers 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Getting a driver's license does not imply being registered to vote. In California, in order to get a drivers license, you also have to provide proof of lawful presence. If you do not, you can still get a license, but it is visibly different from the normal license and cannot be used for certain purposes. If you cannot provide proof of lawful presence, then you are not registered to vote. So how does this allow for illegal voters when this person was neither registered, nor has the normal driver's license?

Mark Jakubauskas 11 months, 3 weeks ago

"All this was inspired by the principle—which is quite true within itself—that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying."

Ken Lassman 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Nice quote from Mein Kampf. That Adolf guy was quite the role model, no?

Harlan Hobbs 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Hey, Comrade Bob, the brothers and the seesters of the revolution are calling in Cooba, "Workers of the world unite." Or as some would say, "Garbage in, garbage out."

Also, if Trump is provocative and lying, then he is just following the example of Obama who has said, among the following:

1) Republican voters just sit at home clinging to their guns and religion.

2) The Fort Hood shooting was an example of workplace violence.

3) Isis is just the JV team.

4) Obamacare will let you keep your doctor and your plan.

5) Obamacare will lower your medical costs.

6) Bengazi was just a spontaneous reaction to a stupid video.

7) Our biggest threat is climate change.

8) If I had a son, he would look like Trayvon. (Never mind that there never was an indictment in the case.)

9) Michael Brown in St. Louis was a gentle giant. (Again, no indictment was ever forthcoming.)

10) The police in Baltimore killed Freddie Gray. While there was an indictment and the goofy mayor settled the case for millions of dollars, all the officers were acquitted.

11) There is not a smidgen of corruption at the IRS even though it was proven that they targeted conservative groups and a number of officials pleaded the 5th in their testimony.

12) There is no evidence that Hillary's e-mails were hacked or that she endangered national security, even though Wikileaks proved that hacking had occurred, and the Dems argued that the Russians were behind it. If so, I assume that Russia is still not our ally and that national security has likely been compromised.

13) The Boston police were stupid for interrogating a black man who appeared to be breaking into a home. Later, it was determined that the man was a professor who was trying to gain access to his home because he had forgotten his key. Kind of hard to blame the police for that, don't you say?

14) Republican legislators (who disagreed with him) are equivalent to terrorists.

15) Obamacare is not a tax when it was voted on in the Congress, but it was a tax when they argued the case before the Supreme Court.

I could go on, but space is limited. You'll notice that most of my examples have legal elements to them. That is for your benefit, since as an attorney, you certainly must respect our judicial system for the most part.

Paul Beyer 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Harlan you might want to give credit to the nutcase site you quoted from. Hard to believe you actually thought up all that BS on your own.

Bob Summers 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Excellent post Hobbs.

This is a well thought out post.

Don't mind Liberal Beyer. He, and Liberals Clinton and Obama, think Police, Military and Border Patrol agents are "Deplorable".

Carol Bowen 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Harlen, I checked out #1. Obama's actual statement, in April 2008, did not refer to Republicans. See below:

"Obama was caught in an uncharacteristic moment of loose language. Referring to working-class voters in old industrial towns decimated by job losses, the presidential hopeful said: "They get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations.""

Sometimes, information is passed around so much that it doesn't represent what happened originally. Obam's statement was unfortunate, but it does not have the partisan slant you were hoping for. Please verify your statements before posting. I'm sure the other items on your list could use some fact checking as well.

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 11 months, 2 weeks ago

Comrade? Harlan is already kissing up to the Russians.

Harlan Hobbs 11 months, 3 weeks ago

I know, Bob. I guess the old adage is true, "When you can't argue the facts, you just argue" or call people names. I'll try to keep that in mind in all of my future posts as well. Paul is obviously battling his own set of "demons."

Michael Kort 11 months, 3 weeks ago

I am just watching for the swamp to drain.........I'm waiting........I'm waiting.......and all I see is the invasion of another group of predatory species in Washington D.C. and I hear the daily walk back of all of those election promises that Trump has made.....and since Trumps V.P. was the governor of Indiana ( before the election ), why did he waite ( until after the election ), to offer Carrier Corp. ( 1000 jobs ) up some state tax incentives, to stay in the US ? ? ?

Not doable before the election ? ? ?........ Maybe Mike Pence ( the "job savior of Carrier" ) should have headed up the Republican ticket ?

I am glad that those jobs are still there,........but the whole thing looks kind of "staged" ( to me ) to appear to be "Obamas problem" before the election, when the real solution sat with Mike Pence, all along !

How about that " Meet The New Boss...Same As The Old Boss ( at the Tres. Dept. ) "........ another Goldman Sachs, former partner for Treasury Sec .? !........ The Same Old........ " BANKSTERS RULE " !

Some things never change, down in the "swap on the Potomac" .

And now Kobach, who has what (?) real law enforcement experience (?) and couldn't even build a home conforming to basic codes on his property in Douglas County ( by his choice ) ( is going to build "The Great Wall of Homeland Trump" ? ) is realy (?) being considered for the head Homeland Security?

OLD SENILE REPUBLICANS BEWARE ! ! !

Obviously, it is all because Kobach investigated MASSIVE VOTER FRAUD IN KANSAS and caught a few " Old Senile Republicans " who mistakenly voted in two states because they owned property in multiple states and felt entitled to do so,, after years of investigating Kansas Voter Fraud, which should (?) basically have conformed to his so called statistical models (?) with lots of arrests of illegal aliens from outer space and elsewhere being discovered and detained for deportation !

So, where's the beef ?....... Show us the Martians ! ......Show us the Mexicans !

Scott Kaiser 11 months, 3 weeks ago

"Kobach, without evidence, supports Trump’s false claim of ‘millions’ of illegal votes" How can Kobach have no evidence yet enough evidence is assumed that the claim of illegal voting is false? This is not a news article, it is an opinion piece. Just what I'd expect from a liberal based "news" media.

Scott Burkhart 11 months, 3 weeks ago

It isn't difficult to extrapolate seven digit voting numbers among non citizens with mere logic. Non citizens obtain what is called a "3 pack." For a couple of hundred dollars they can obtain a counterfeit, driver's license, documented worker permit, and social security card. With these items they can obtain a voter registration in almost all states. Do the math. If a person shows up to register to vote and they provide a driver's license that matches their illegal voter registration, bingo, you have a fraudulent vote. As far as the study cited by Hancock in this article, there have been a number of statistical experts that have called the sample size, the methodology, and the conclusions into question.

Adam Taylor 11 months, 3 weeks ago

I'm sorry Scott your "mere logic" has eluded me.. 1. Please explain where millions of non citizens find and receive these "3-packs"? If millions of people are getting these packets they cant be hard to find. 2. How do unregistered drivers license numbers and fake social security numbers make it past a registry check? You do realize that those numbers are checked and verified against a database right? You can't just make up letters and numbers and have them work. Im trying to "do the math" but i'm having a hard time coming up with the same answer. Can you cite some sources so i can better understand your equation? Thanks,

Joe Blackford II 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Scott, IF you had a "3 pack," I can understand why you would use it to obtain work that most legals don't care for. But, why in the world would you risk discovery to obtain a voter registration? Just so you could post that you'd voted for Clinton in KS?

Your post leads me to believe you're still playing Revolution #9 backwards for clues to Paul's death.

Barb Gordon 11 months, 2 weeks ago

As everyone has already pointed out, these counterfeit items are duplicates of an existing person or totally fake and not in a database. Easy to detect if you're looking. Why would they knowingly risk it for a vote? Votes aren't powerful by themselves. They're only powerful collectively.

Bob Summers 11 months, 3 weeks ago

If there isn't any illegal voting why is the Liberal Clinton and her puppet Stein demanding recounts?

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Why are you and Trump so afraid of a recount?

Fred Whitehead Jr. 11 months, 3 weeks ago

I have spoken in this forum on occasion about the new rise of the Forth Reich in the United States. Well folks, although most of you are sick of my waving that stupid flag, we are now in the early stages of this. The mention of Nazis and Fascists gets most people upset and all in a bind. But you are looking at it. It happened before. It is happening again. There is nothing now that can be done about the elected officials abridging the Constitution and laws of the country.

You thought Obama was bad, the bigots and racists conflated Hillary with him to defeat her in accordance with Trump's campaign against him. But what is brewing right now in the country and on the stupidity of "social" media are working diligently on an overthrow of legitimate Constitutional government in the United States. Kobach is one of the leading cheerleaders of this movement.

Adolf Hitler (remember him??) actually lost a presidential election in Germany in 1933, But as history notes, it did not stop him from becoming the worst dictator in modern history.

"Those who do not remember the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them"

Michael Kort 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Why it is all the fault of the "liberal biased media" ( like the Lawrence Journal News (?) who endorsed that awful friend of Hillary Clintons' ......the ever liberal... Sam Brownback !..... twice!.......how liberal can you get ! ) who report truthfully that Kris " Danger Man " Kobach could only catch a handful of OLD SENILE REPUBLICANS who committed voter fraud in Kansas ?

No aliens from outer space ! No Mexicans from Mexico ! Just senile old republicans voting in two states in error !

So if Koback knows in his own mind that X % of voters are truely illegals, why hasn't he even been able to catch one of those millions and millions of alien illegal voters here in Kansas ? ? ?

He is either really lousy at what he claims to be an "expert at doing" ( catching alien voter fraud thru detection, prosecutions, deportations ) or a preppy prankster claiming a thing that he knows for a fact is a lie for his own twisted personal political ends ! ! !

Want to buy every bridge, automobile tunnel and rail tunnel ( and helipad ) onto the island of Manhattan ?

Donald and Kobach have a deal for you..........it will make you SO RICH !

Sheila Murphy 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Trump and Kobach need to SHOW THEIR WORK. As President Elect, Trump has an obligation to take voter fraud seriously. Kobach's JOB is to ensure the integrity of our elections. If these two people, in the positions that they are in, are going to proclaim to the world that MILLIONS of people voted illegally, it is their Constitutional duty to conduct a full and thorough nationwide RECOUNT.

Harlan Hobbs 11 months, 3 weeks ago

I have no problem with recounts, Dorothy, as long as the Democrats and the Clintons will admit that they are hypocritical liars who said that failure to accept the election results by Trump would cause irreparable damage to our democracy. You are such a fool.

Carol, the point is that Obama looks down on people with whom he disagrees. It is a classic case of elitism and is representative of a sociopathic behavior, along with always blaming others for his failures. His legacy will eventually be a blip on the radar screen.

Now that Mr. Trump has been elected, I am glad that the Supreme Court did not overturn Obamacare. Had they done so, Obama would continue to claim that it would have been a success, when it clearly has been a monumental failure.

If Mr. Trump delivers on his promises, which I expect that he will, then liberalism may finally have been dealt the fatal blow for the future of this country. He's already saved thousands of jobs at Ford and Carrier, and this is probably just the beginning.

As for voter fraud, it is a lot easier to believe that undocumented people with driver's licenses and fake social security cards voted in California than it is to believe that somehow the Russians hacked the election system and swung the vote to Mr. Trump.

Fred Whitehead Jr. 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Thank you, Rush Limbaugh. You need to stay on your website, more morons read that than this news rag.

Ken Lassman 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Where to start, Harlan?

Clinton accepted the election results; she conceded the election the day after the vote. Stein is using her monies for the recount. If there is evidence of voting irregularities EVERYONE should support a recount. An audit of a close election ensures that the system works and identifies weaknesses that can be shored up.

Your next paragraph is just one opinionated insult after another, which, of course, you're entitled to. If I wanted to waste my time, I could replace "Obama" with "Trump" and it would fit just as well for many.

Obamacare's shortcomings are a legacy of a do-nothing congress which refused to even touch it to try to improve it. This kind of partisan purity is not only non-productive, it delays and perhaps even dooms the possibility of our country ever getting a handle on healthcare in our country.

Liberalism and conservatism (and I use the terms very loosely since they both have changed quite a bit over the decades) both have very good qualities and not so good qualities. It is ridiculous to ever think that one without the other is better than both together, just like having an executive branch without the judicial branch or the legislative branch. The need for a healthy system of checks and balances in our political system is what makes it work and it is folly to think otherwise.

Voter fraud is a serious charge and if there is ever evidence of it, it should be investigated as it undermines democracy. So far I've not heard any convincing evidence of either of your scenarios. Baseless assertions are not worth listening to: and Kobach has had plenty of time and money to dig up proof of his assertions and has come up empty handed.

Eric Akers 11 months, 3 weeks ago

It is very difficult to believe that illegals voted in California with a drivers license, because the law specifies that if you do not provide lawful proof of residence, you get a card that is only good for driving, and not used for purposes of identification. The REAL ID Act passed in 2005 requires the states must fulfill various requirements in order to be used for federal purposes, including verifying applicants' citizenship or lawful immigration status, putting a temporary, "valid only until" type limitation on the licenses of non-citizens in the U.S. for a temporary lawful stay. California does not register people to vote nor allow people to vote who have this alternate card which is clearly marked at the top with "Federal Limits Apply" and This card is not acceptable for official federal purposes" on the back. Having a drivers license does not equal registered to vote.

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 11 months, 3 weeks ago

You can't make accusations that you can't back up. Stein made an accusation and raised the money for a recount. What has Trump or Kobach done? Made a more yuge accusation, but doesn't follow through, either with money for a recount, or with a demand for an investigation. Instead he whines about it, sending out the conspiracy theory, like before, then wrapping himself in the flag with anti flag burning. The flag he refused to defend when he avoided the draft.

Harlan Hobbs 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Ken, just continue wallowing in your sorrow. You and your ilk are now basically irrelevant and have little or no credibility. Also, if you would like to Google the word "sociopath", you might learn something. The descriptions fit Barry perfectly.

Also, as Obama said to McCain in 2008, "the election is over. We won and you lost, and elections have consequences." Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Ken Lassman 11 months, 3 weeks ago

I'm not wallowing in my sorrow at all, Harlan; but I'm not going to hold my breath for you to grow up and stop throwing out insults with every sentence you write. By stating the irrelevance of anyone who doesn't share your opinion, you are clearly indicating to others that your conception of reality is anything but inclusive and by doing so you isolate yourself. Too bad.

I've been having real conversations with folks who have different opinions than I do for quite a while and look forward to continuing that into the future. I suggest you try to do the same.

Scott Burkhart 11 months, 3 weeks ago

I couldn't reply to earlier parts of my thread for some reason. My data comes from ICE. You don't have to accept my premise. You are welcome to believe that tens of millions of undocumented people live in this country and none of them vote. That's stupid.

Ken Lassman 11 months, 3 weeks ago

You're right: I don't accept your premise at all. Why would millions of undocumented residents potentially blow their cover and give authorities an excuse to deport them by registering to vote? Especially when over 40% of eligible citizens of the US didn't bother to vote even though they could have in this past election? That would be even more stupid.

George Lippencott 11 months, 3 weeks ago

I might note that there is no proof there are not millions of ineligible voters. We really do not know as there is no test of citizenship when registering in most states. In most states, there is a legal requirement that one be a citizen to vote (as I believe there is in the federal constitution) but we have steadfastly chosen to not test that requirement.

Under motor voter in most states you just sign a paper affirming your citizenship. If you are ineligible to vote (not a citizen) how would we find out? Undocumented residents are already committing a crime so why not continue to do so??

There was a study, discounted by the progressives, that suggests there are many ineligible residents voting. To accurately answer this question, we would need to sample a segment of the motor voter registrants ( and perhaps others) to see what percentage (if any) are not eligible.

We are not actually discussing disenfranchising people we are discussing the legal requirement to be a citizen in order to vote.

Ken Lassman 11 months, 3 weeks ago

The Immigration and Nationality Act lists voting in an election as a deportable offense for a noncitizen. Who in their right mind would risk their status even as a lawful permanent to register to vote in an election? Voting is not a right for those folks who are unregistered or even registered as a noncitizen, so why put your name down so some INS person can deport you without any other offense? And once again, Mr. Kobach has been combing our voter lists for a number of years and it just isn't happening here in Kansas. There are enough workers from other countries in our state for this problem to surface if it was going to and it hasn't--simply because folks know better. This whole issue is a straw dog.

George Lippencott 11 months, 3 weeks ago

If there is no upfront test there is no risk! Because you are on the voting rolls does not open you up to INS review!! Exactly how is Mr. Kobach to verify citizenship after the fact without violating individual rights.

Catch - 22

Ken Lassman 11 months, 3 weeks ago

Thanks, George, for finally explaining the apparent issue. You're the first person on this list, or even Mr. Kobach himself, to actually explain the potential issue. I'm not familiar enough with all of the rules to know how states detect potential problems with individuals on the voter rolls, except to say that you'd think Mr. Kobach would have been able to catch at least a few "non-citizens" on the roles during his tenure if this were a big issue.

Barb Gordon 11 months, 2 weeks ago

States are perfectly capable of reviewing voting rolls against the INS list of permanent residents prior to someone casting a ballot. Other states already do this.

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 11 months, 2 weeks ago

"We really do not know as there is no test of citizenship when registering in most states."

We never had, except a legal affidavit that you signed when you registered stating under penalty of law that you are a US citizen. So you have never proved your citizenship. How do we know you are a US citizen? Want to post your birth certificate?

George Lippencott 11 months, 2 weeks ago

Yep, and we have had voter fraud from the git-go. It was somewhat harder in our earlier history when voting was mostly local and everybody knew everybody.

Now it is problematic. That does not mean we can not demand proof of citizenship at the beginning.

Barb Gordon 11 months, 2 weeks ago

Actually, there has been some good investigative reporting and the rate of in-person voter fraud is about one in every fifteen million votes cast. A small number of those cases (56) were non-citizens. http://votingrights.news21.com/article/election-fraud/

“The fraud that matters is the fraud that is organized. That’s why voter impersonation is practically non-existent because it is difficult to do and it is difficult to pull people into conspiracies to do it,” said Lorraine Minnite, professor of public policy and administration at Rutgers University.

George Lippencott 11 months, 2 weeks ago

And exactly how did the investigative reporter make that determination?? Perhaps the/she asked??

The notion that because you swear that you are a citizen makes cheating unlikely is as foolish as declaring trump illegitimate.

Barb Gordon 11 months, 2 weeks ago

Did you read the article? It explains their methodology. I'm not here to do your homework for you. Then again, you didn't even read the article you're commenting on here because your first post referenced the same debunked study Kobach tried to reference.

Yes, it's possible in some select cases, but it is not a widespread problem. It's unlikely. You're hyper focused on a mechanism you think might allow a non-citizen to vote while ignoring the evidence that they usually don't. Try (actually) reading this one. http://www.factcheck.org/2016/10/trumps-bogus-voter-fraud-claims/

Cheating is unlikely because there's nothing to be gained by it. In-person voter fraud by non-citizens provides no tangible personal gain and a lot of personal risk. They found 56 cases of it, but there were 207 other types of fraud for every single case of in-person voter fraud.

Here's an analogy. It's possible for someone to climb the wall on the animal cages at the zoo. They usually don't. The punishment (being thrown out of the zoo, being arrested, getting killed by an animal) is higher than the personal gain of getting an epic selfie. That doesn't mean that there could be millions of wall climbers at zoos that we only don't know about because we don't station five guards at each animal cage to catch them all.

States are perfectly capable of cross-referencing SSN, DMV, INS, and other public records to verify each voter's eligibility prior to casting a ballot. Many states already do, including California. That's just good practice. Nobody is arguing against database checks, but Trump has to believe six impossible things before breakfast if he thinks that his popular vote loss was because of fraudulent voting. His claim is a lie. Full stop.

It's already been pointed out to you that California driver's licenses for non-citizens are not the same as those for citizens, and the voter registration system in CA already verifies their record against their DMV and SSN record. So no, they didn't march on over in the millions with their motor voter registrations to give Clinton the win.

Bob Smith 11 months, 3 weeks ago

"Hillary, without evidence, supports Stein's demand for election recounts" There's the real story.

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 11 months, 2 weeks ago

And she raised the money for it. Why doesn't Trump do the same? Put his money where his mouth is.

Bob Smith 11 months, 2 weeks ago

If Trump wanted recounts, he could pay for them out of petty cash instead of scamming disappointed progressives who are grasping at straws.

Dorothy Hoyt-Reed 11 months, 2 weeks ago

I know, you are too broke for sending money to a mega church preacher, so he doesn't have to fly with the rest of the peons.

Barb Gordon 11 months, 2 weeks ago

Except that's not how he works. If he wanted a recount, he'd pretend he was paying for it and actually be collecting money from donors and sponsors. He'd be scamming the disappointed white nationalists and grumpy old white men. He's never been anything but a con artist, and you fell for it. Sucker.

Bob Smith 11 months, 2 weeks ago

LJW is okay with editorializing in headlines now?

Ken Lassman 11 months, 2 weeks ago

Last I checked folks are innocent until proven otherwise and Koback/Trump's accusations certainly have not been proven, despite Mr. Kobach's access to records for the past several years that should have enabled him to prove otherwise. Therefore the headline is entirely objectively right: Trump's claim is false and Kobach has not provided any evidence that non-citizens are voting in any systematic or large scale way.

Bob Smith 11 months, 2 weeks ago

Kinda like Stein's demands for recounts are not supported by any evidence? BTW, Stein wants to make Michigan shell out $12 million on her fantasy recount. I think the state might have better uses for that money.

Barb Gordon 11 months, 2 weeks ago

From the Detroit news "The type of optical-scanning machines Michigan municipalities use have been hacked by research scientists in other states, leaving them vulnerable to criminal implanting software that could be used to manipulate election results."

Combine that with a discrepancy in exit polling and Russian probing of voting machines, and there's your "evidence." Mind you, I don't think it's good evidence, but if she wants to raise the money to do a recount, let her. She already paid 1 million, the legally required sum for the request and last I checked was willing to pay more when they had the final figures in.

$12 million is the cost of a full election, not a realistic estimate. Most estimates put it more in the 3-4 million range, which is something she's able to cover.

Why are you so scared of a recount?

Ken Lassman 11 months, 2 weeks ago

Both the recount effort and Trump's assertion without any evidence warrant digging deeper. The recount is like a business audit: it looks for legitimacy and transparency and makes recommendations on how to make it all work better, digging deeper if there is even the appearance of fraud or abuse. Since our democracy depends on our faith in the system, it's kinda weird that every state doesn't do some periodic audits of the system of voting just to make sure that biases don't creep in. Same with voter fraud: Kobach has spent lots of time "strengthening" our system but has yet to prove that any non-citizen voting is taking place. At some point you have to question if there is a problem if fine tooth searches for aforesaid fraud is occurring. If it is happening, then by all means it's a legitimate concern for the same reason as a voting system that can be hacked/manipulated in other ways. But if the "cure" for alleged voter fraud itself causes biases against certain demographic groups, then you have to look at that as well.

Barb Gordon 11 months, 2 weeks ago

It's not "editorializing." It's fact-checking. Part of the problem is that you don't seem to know the difference.

Michael Kort 11 months, 2 weeks ago

Stupid is as stupid does !

Today some idiot drove from North Carolina to Washington DC and shot up a pizza place because the son of Trumps chosen "national security adviser" to be, a son who is himself an "adult" and who has also "attended transition meetings with Trump", had started an online story about a supposed child sex slave ring run by HIllary before the election, that was supposed to be located at a certain pizza shop in DC, that this N.C. idiot entered into with automatic rifle in hand, to save the supposed child sex slaves who supposedly worked there, aimed the gun at an employee and shot a computer in the presence of astonished frightened families and their kids who were simply trying to eat their pizzas in peace at a neighborhood pizza joint, all based on a deliberate internet election lie .

The owner of that place needs to file a law suit as who would want to take themselves or their kids there after today's gun play ?

I have heard that both Sarah Palin and Ann Coulter are now claiming that they were duped into supporting Trump . They don't like goverment selectively bailing out some but not all businesses . TOO MUCH LIKE THE BANK BAILOUTS OF OBAMA ? ? ?........ Too much like the swamp undrained ! ! !

Not surprising ! ......as they both fooled themselves..... along with millions of Americans who needed their "tantrum fix".........especially those who believed the constant on line false news pieces that the Trumps' campaign was creating and displaying on line for idiots to act out over like our pizza shooter ! ( ( well it was on line....... so it must be true ! )

Undaunted, the story of all of today's happening is being panned as a "media attempted coverup of the alleged child sex ring" by the son of Trumps' to be ,national security adviser", himself . WHAT ? ? ? A lie followed by more lies !

These people have no shame,.......nor does Trump or Kobach .

Give a builder money and they will build....it's what they do !

Give a liar any media to lie in.....and they will lie.....that is their natural path of least resistance .

Michael Kort 11 months, 2 weeks ago

What does it say ?..........Thou Shall Not Bear False Wittness Against Thy Neighbor.

There Is No...."unless you are a right wing nut republican or their morally bankrupt candidate" attached to that !

George Lippencott 11 months, 2 weeks ago

Barb,

I can not run down every study that argues that all is well. But did do this one

"The study relied on data from the Cooperative Congressional Election Study, which is administered by YouGov/Polimetrix and managed by Harvard University and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Richman and Earnest estimated the number of noncitizens who voted nationwide based on those in the survey who self-identified as noncitizens who voted."

We have based the conclusion on self admitted criminal action (it is illegal to vote if you are not eligible). Might it be possible that there would be reluctance to admit that action even if promised anonymity? I suspect that is what in the end the reporter did because there is no actual date on this topic.

A far as the right wing study, I did not support it but did mention it. It was debunked by the left. It has as much credibility as the studies you reference. The only real way to answer this question is to select a set of voters from the motor voter pool and see what if any proportion are illegal. (not by asking them)

My solution is to start with new registrants and require proof of citizenship. I know you disagree with that but I really do not care as this is one of the many core issues where resolution is not possible because both sides are doing a lot of arm waving.

And I have no idea if there were enough illegal votes to swing the popular vote in the recent election - I really do not care. The system has been served and an outcome established by law. If you do not like it then get ready to take it back in 2020.

Barb Gordon 11 months, 2 weeks ago

Once again, that is the study Kobach cited, which has been debunked as methodologically flawed. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2014/10/27/methodological-challenges-affect-study-of-non-citizens-voting/?utm_term=.a8ae8399cd2a

You don't get to pick one set of methodology if you're on the left or the right. Studies are either sound or they're not. There's no sound evidence of massive voter fraud. It would be an extremely inefficient way to throw an election. Making it harder to vote is much easier.

Sure - verify eligibility. Ask all registrants to put their SSN and driver's license or other identifying information on their registration form. Do the database checks. Call them back for more verification if you have no matches. But make it easy. It's entirely possible to do this without allowing fraud or suppressing voter turnout. Or costing taxpayers tons of money.

She won more popular votes than any other candidate in history. There's absolutely no reason a candidate with grace and dignity wouldn't acknowledge that fact and reiterate his promise to be a president for all people. But we don't have a president-elect with grace or dignity. We've got a temper tantrum throwing narcissist who would rather make up a lie to justify unnecessary measures. And he's got plenty of followers willing to do the same.

George Lippencott 11 months, 2 weeks ago

Amazing,

I wrote that the Kobach study has been debunked by the left as you are citing studies that I have at least in part debunked.

Now we agree that w need to make registration much easier than it is. I do not understand why with all the super IT we have we can not do the verification without bothering the registrant except for name , DOB and state of birth.

It would be much better for all concerned if we did exactly as you suggest in your last paragraph (on both sides of the aisle)

Barb Gordon 11 months, 1 week ago

My bad - I thought you were referencing two different studies, the "right wing study" and the Richman Earnest study.

The facts aren't left-right. The only reason this has become a left-right issue is because the GOP is using it as an excuse to exclude minority voters. Not just by asking for ID, but by closing polling places and early voting in a very targeted way. That's the real voter fraud. One example, the GOP in Michigan are simultaneously trying to push through stricter voting rules to prevent "fraud" while claiming that there was no fraud in the 2016 election in order to prevent a recount.

I'm glad you see where I'm coming from here. We can register voters painlessly by verifying their records and only following up when there's not a clear match.

Honestly, I also think we should also audit every election every time. Some of these states are a real mess. While it may not necessarily be fraud, the sloppiness can change the outcome. Scanners that jam or don't read legitimate votes, machines that flip votes, etc.

George Lippencott 11 months, 1 week ago

Well we did have a moment of agreement. I do not know that the GOP motivation is to exclude minorities. It could be just what they say it is - an attempt to verify the constitutional requirement that you be a citizen to vote.

I agree we need to better audit results. I am not exactly sure how to do that without injecting human determination of voter intention as we did with the Florida chads

Since we are human it just may be that no election will be without legitimate questions let alone just plain bitching.

Michael Kort 11 months, 2 weeks ago

EARTH TO KOBACH !

THERE WILL BE NO WALL !

HILLARY IS NOT GOING TO JAIL !

THERE WILL BE NO DEPORTATION OF THE "MILLIONS AND MILLIONS" OF UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS !

YOU HAVE BEEN VICTUM OF "FOOL'EM-GATE" ! ! !..........or maybe just another prankster ?

George Lippencott 11 months, 1 week ago

Ever been to El Paso or other major crossing sites? There already is a wall.

My understanding of Mr. Trumps position is to deport criminals who happen to be undocumented aliens.

How about a solution that provides legal status for foreign laborers while working here to protect them from exploitation by the likes of the meat packing industry??

Is there not a compromise short of opening our borders to all who want to come??

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