Archive for Tuesday, January 8, 2013

Kansas man accidentally shoots wife with gun at Lenexa restaurant

January 8, 2013

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— Police say a northeast Kansas man accidentally shot his wife at a restaurant when his concealed weapon discharged.

Lenexa police say the man had a small caliber handgun in his pocket while dining at the Longbranch Steakhouse last week. Officer Dan Friesen says the man reached into the pocket and accidentally discharged his weapon. His wife was treated and released at a hospital for a wound in the leg.

Police say the man had a valid concealed carry permit and the proper training but the state likely will revoke his permit.

KSHB-TV reports the restaurant’s manager says the company is now considering banning customers from bringing in concealed firearms.

Comments

autie 2 years, 4 months ago

Oops. More fodder for one side or the other on this 'loaded' issue.

Hoots 2 years, 4 months ago

One word...Holster. I'm surprised this idiot hadn't shot himself in the leg or crotch long ago. He won't need what's in his pants after shooting his wife anyway.

mom_of_three 2 years, 4 months ago

He's lucky her wound was only to the leg or that he didn't hit someone else.

you just have to shake your head and say "seriously?!"

riverdrifter 2 years, 4 months ago

Another reason I don't want to fool with CC. Treated and released? The lady is veerry lucky.

Jason Johnson 2 years, 4 months ago

The guy was an idiot. You don't have anything else in the pocket holding your firearm.

Haiku_Cuckoo 2 years, 4 months ago

What kind of boob brings a loaded handgun to a steak house? Was he afraid somebody might try to steal his baked potato?

verity 2 years, 4 months ago

He was going to be a hero when some crazy started shooting up the place.

B0B 2 years, 4 months ago

Yet some how those crazies never get shot by anyone but themselves.

nut_case 2 years, 4 months ago

Yeah, 'cause if there are two places you know to be safe, it's steak houses and movie theaters!

JayCat_67 2 years, 4 months ago

Oooooh. Edited to be family friendly. I like it.

Smarmy_Schoolmarm 2 years, 4 months ago

Do you know for a fact that this is what the LJW really wants?

I have absolutely no problem hearing about every single accidental shooting in the country. Do you not want to be informed?

orbiter 2 years, 4 months ago

Yeah, bigtoe, the LJW is quite the commie rag. It being owned by a Fox News parroting Republican is just cover for their true beliefs.

FlintHawk 2 years, 4 months ago

Thankfully it was "only" his spouse and not a child. Had it been a small person, it would not have been the leg.

fiddleback 2 years, 4 months ago

Thankfully the steakhouse adheres to a strict "no dwarf" policy...

bad_dog 2 years, 4 months ago

A smaller target might have resulted in a miss.

Jeanne Cunningham 2 years, 4 months ago

If/whenever I eat out next, I'll remember to see if people are allowed to carry guns inside. If there ARE guns allowed, I'll find somewhere else to go eat.

greatgatsby 2 years, 4 months ago

You best make sure you're growing your own food then because just FYI, the vast majority restaurants in KS don't have the gun buster sign, believe me, I check at every restaurant I enter. Come to think of it, hardly any grocery stores ban it either. Perhaps the libs at Natural Grocers or the Merc but I hope you know how to garden and raise chickens cause that may be the only way you eat.

LadyJ 2 years, 4 months ago

I have a feeling anything the state would do to him is nothing compared to what his wife will. Bet she never lets him forget it. Especially during an argument, "well at least I never shot you, I could have been killed". Believe me, I would get a lot of mileage, and presents, out of that one. "you do the cleaning, my leg hurts" for the next ten years.

Greg Cooper 2 years, 4 months ago

Kinda the reason I don't cotton to everybody and his neighbor carrying: common sense. Is everyone like this guy? Of course not. But, and I can hear the howls now, how many "mistakes" like this does it take?

jonas_opines 2 years, 4 months ago

Does the application in Kansas for CC include a Common Sense Test?

verity 2 years, 4 months ago

Maybe the only accident was that he didn't hit his wife a little higher up.

And, yes, I don't think this man is going to have much money to spend on arming himself further---it's going to be diamonds and furs for the lady.

Or maybe, "I thought he was an intruder, officer. He kept the gun for security."

OK, I'm leaving now.

08Champs 2 years, 4 months ago

Forever? So his wife deserved to be killed instead, and he shouldn't feel bad about it..., right? Silly comments....

headdoctor 2 years, 4 months ago

What he should be very concerned about is when his wife says, "Okay, now it is my turn".

funkdog1 2 years, 4 months ago

Too bad his wife didn't have a gun. She could've protected herself.

Joe Hyde 2 years, 4 months ago

Sounds like the handgun in question was either a .22, a .25 or .32 caliber semi-automatic carried with a round already chambered.

When carried inside a pocket -- where the gun's safety tang and trigger are constantly exposed to fabric snags and body movement -- any semi-auto is safe if its chamber is empty. An empty chamber eliminates all risk of accidental discharge inside the pocket. Yet once the owner pulls out the gun it takes at most two seconds to work the slide and chamber a round from the magazine, should a self-defense need arise.

tomatogrower 2 years, 4 months ago

Yes, they tell you this in the concealed carry class, but many fools don't pay attention there anymore than they paid attention in school. And you don't need to know a lot about using a gun to get a concealed carry.

James Minor 2 years, 4 months ago

These people all have been trained and certified, and this is another example of why CC does not work. If an incident occurred, a cop would want to assess the situation and determine the who is the criminal. Having some idiot with a gun waiting for the chance to shoot someone would not help, but only hurt!!!

Alexander Smith 2 years, 4 months ago

LOL.. yep. We need that concealed to carry law. YEP the world is safer with it. Freaking MORONS.

Another reason why people DO NOT need concealed to carry when the training is a freaking joke that a 10 year old could pass it.

Just think if it went off and was aimed in another direction and killed or wounded a child or anyone else in the restaurant???

Currahee 2 years, 4 months ago

If this guy was following proper safety rules for firearm handling this would have never happened.

Bob Forer 2 years, 4 months ago

The problem is that humans are imperfect and make mistakes. This was not the first time an accident caused a concealed firearm to hurt an innocent person; and it won't be the last time, either.

Currahee 2 years, 4 months ago

This message was directed towards individuals who are too quick to grab the stick and wave, "ban gun ownership!". These people sit and let their heads get brainwashed by the media and don't realize that it only takes a few to create the perception of majority.

beatrice 2 years, 4 months ago

If this guy had not been carrying, that is when you can say this would never have happened. If carrying, this can happen -- since, you know, it did.

beatrice 2 years, 4 months ago

But it did happen, so what does that say about C&C training?

beatrice 2 years, 4 months ago

I don't believe anyone is saying driver's ed will make it so a car accident will "never" happen. Currahee did say that proper handling and this would "never" happen. Obviously then, this C&C holder was not properly trained.

Do you think C&C training should be more significant than it is now?

jafs 2 years, 4 months ago

Then they should be taught how to handle the guns as well, don't you think?

Seems like an obvious thing to me.

They should have to demonstrate knowledge of the relevant laws, and awareness of how to safely handle guns and use them (also, perhaps a minimum level of proficiency with the gun should be demonstrated).

Otherwise, what's the point?

Your own comment is contradictory - you say that it's a matter of following the training, but also that the training doesn't include gun handling.

If people got driver's licenses without having to demonstrate their ability to drive, it might be analogous, and most people would think that was pretty absurd.

jafs 2 years, 4 months ago

I doubt very much that without training, I could fire a gun well, hit what I'm aiming at and not something else, especially under emotionally difficult circumstances, which most situations requiring that would be.

Apparently they don't have to know how to store and use a gun safely, if your comment is accurate. You don't find that to be a problem?

jafs 2 years, 4 months ago

You didn't answer my question. What if this guy had killed his wife, or a child?

I don't accept your either/or set up. I want trained people who know how to safely handle guns with them, and I want it to be much harder for madmen to get those weapons and use them.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 4 months ago

Take his license, he obviously did not have his firearm properly secured. Even a pocket gun needs a holster. Of course, remember the other 59,000 licensed concealed carriers didn't shoot anyone last week.

Uncle_Jerry 2 years, 4 months ago

That's a fair assessment. Maybe take his license for a year.

voevoda 2 years, 4 months ago

Yes, there are many responsible gun owners who are not negligent. The problem is how to keep the negligent ones from getting ownership of guns and permits to carry them in the first place. Clearly, the concealed-carry licensing requirements are not stringent enough to filter out irresponsible people.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 4 months ago

Suggestions? These events are sensationalized, but they are still very very rare.

Smarmy_Schoolmarm 2 years, 4 months ago

@DillonBarnes: The little girl outside Linwood a few years ago, the 4 year old last week. This is too common for me.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 4 months ago

Neither of those incidents involved concealed carry.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 4 months ago

If we're talking about concealed carry, then I think it does.

Uncle_Jerry 2 years, 4 months ago

"Yes, there are many responsible gun owners who are not negligent. The problem is how to keep the negligent ones from getting ownership of guns and permits to carry them in the first place. Clearly, the concealed-carry licensing requirements are not stringent enough to filter out irresponsible people"-Voevoda

It's largely an impossible task. This is the price of having the right to be armed. I think it's worth it. What you are looking for is a guarantee and you're not going to get one.

voevoda 2 years, 4 months ago

I think that we can do better, even if complete safety is impossible. Let's start by requiring much higher levels of training and proof of competence before permitting someone a concealed carry license. Persons who have professional training (in the military, for example, or the police, or shooting instructors) would qualify easily. That would be a better balance between the right to be armed and the right to be safe, and it would conform to the Constitutional requirements of a "well regulated Militia" for "the security of a free State."

Evan Ridenour 2 years, 4 months ago

Remember, in Kansas, even a blind person can maintain a CC license.

........................

beatrice 2 years, 4 months ago

Yes, but this week is still young. There is still time.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 4 months ago

"Take his license,"

I'm sure that once the license is revoked, his wife's injuries and scars will spontaneously disappear.

Bob Forer 2 years, 4 months ago

Damn, I hope the guy doesn't have his license yanked. We need guys like him covering our backs.

bad_dog 2 years, 4 months ago

Only if I have lots of kevlar available...

DillonBarnes 2 years, 4 months ago

Also, this was not an accidental discharge, this was a negligent discharge.

beatrice 2 years, 4 months ago

You are correct. It was no accident that someone so negligent was given a C&C license. The NRA has pushed such loosening of gun laws that virtually any negligent individual can now carry, and it is no accident on their part.

Uncle_Jerry 2 years, 4 months ago

There are probably dozens and dozens of fire arms "accidentally" discharged by police throughout the course of a year....and they're supposedly the best trained to use them. This is one guy who screwed up. Could it have been worse? Yes, but it wasn't.

Search: "police raid and kill wrong" in google.

Where's the outrage?

Uncle_Jerry 2 years, 4 months ago

So where's the sweeping legislation or enforcement of preventative measures for wrongful deaths from police?

Bang! "Ooops....looks like we got the wrong guy Chuck." Then comes the suspension with pay and a reinstatement to a desk job all the while the family is tied down in litigation for years before they see any compensation.

The body count from wrongful deaths perpetrated by police is unacceptable but goes largely unnoticed nationally. There aren't special interest groups lobbying for preventative measures for these crimes because by in large the victims are poor, live in high crime areas, and of color.

jonas_opines 2 years, 4 months ago

"So where's the sweeping legislation or enforcement of preventative measures for wrongful deaths from police?"

I think it got filed along with the "higher taxes, reduced pay, and less benefits for congress and senate" legislation.

voevoda 2 years, 4 months ago

Police are part of a "well regulated Militia" as designated in the Constitution. They are answerable for every use of their firearms.

If, Uncle, you think that the standards for proper use of firearms and the penalties for improper use of firearms aren't stringent enough for *police, who are using firearms during the performance of their sworn duty, by what logic do you suggest that the standards should be lower, even non-existent, for private citizens? That is just illogical, Uncle.

MarcoPogo 2 years, 4 months ago

"Accidental Discharges" sounds like the name of a section in a pharmacy.

monheim 2 years, 4 months ago

KSHB-TV reports the restaurant’s manager says the company is now considering banning customers from bringing in concealed firearms.

facepalm Ya think?!

Satirical 2 years, 4 months ago

If accidents with guns could occur, then guns should be restriced. This is why I don't think the police should be allowed to carry guns either...

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/officer-376248-department-police.html (I am sure a google search will produced many, many more examples.)

After all, guns don't make us safer, so cops shouldn't be able to use them either....right?

Bob Forer 2 years, 4 months ago

That would be great if there were not millions of guns already out there available to criminals. But since there is no way to collect all those guns, I think the police should be armed.

Satirical 2 years, 4 months ago

So the police can have guns because they will protect us from all the other guns...right?

After all, the police have a duty to protect us...right? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

Bob Forer 2 years, 4 months ago

They have a right to protect themselves, and unfortunately they go against a lot of bad actors who are often heavily armed.

jafs 2 years, 4 months ago

That's a horrifying case to me.

I can't understand at all how the police aren't held to a higher standard - it's clear that they made a number of rather elementary mistakes in that situation that could easily have resulted in less harm done to the victims.

The interpretation that they have no specific duty to a specific individual doesn't remove their duty to perform their duties in an acceptably professional manner, and they clearly didn't fulfill that obligation here.

greatgatsby 2 years, 4 months ago

When you have seconds, the police are only minutes away.

beatrice 2 years, 4 months ago

Who had seconds in this scenario? Or are you saying his wife should have returned fire?

greatgatsby 2 years, 4 months ago

I wasn't commenting on this scenario. This guys an idiot. I'm commenting more on the argument that only police should be armed. If you are facing down a dangerous situation there may not always be a police man standing shoulder to shoulder with you.

jjt 2 years, 4 months ago

It seems to me that if the weapon had discharged into a small child sitting in a booth behind the couple, killing her or maiming her for life then the following might happen, The restaurant who has little or no control over the weapon gets sued for Gazillions The Gun owner gets a slap over the wrist as it was an accident.
Is it possible that restaurants are allowed to ban Guns on their premises except for law enforcement? If the gun owner was put away for irresponsibly discharging a weapon in a public place for a lengthy period (and whilst there may be considerable gnashing of teeth) the message would eventually get through.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 4 months ago

Be realistic, that man would have at the very least faced involuntary manslaughter charges. Possibly other kinds of endangerment charges for not properly securing his weapon.

jafs 2 years, 4 months ago

Is he facing those endangerment charges now?

If not, why not?

jafs 2 years, 4 months ago

I have no idea.

Should he have? DB says if he had killed somebody, he would have faced those charges for not properly securing his weapon. If that's endangerment, then he should face those charges now, since he didn't properly secure it, right?

fiddleback 2 years, 4 months ago

Sigh. Why'd it have to be Kansas?

There's the deep South, Appalachia, Texas, Wyoming, and yet it has to be here...Yes, I was ready for the tale of the Kansas sperm samaritan and the wayward lesbians to be trumped by some other embarrassing Kansas story, but this is just too much.

Fellow Kansans, could we just agree on a collective New Year's Resolution to minimize the number of these depressingly stupid stories picked up by the A.P.??

riverdrifter 2 years, 4 months ago

"the Kansas sperm samaritan and the wayward lesbians" Sounds like a great name for a 21st century rock band. FTW!

fiddleback 2 years, 4 months ago

That band has already recorded 3 alt-country albums and split, though the 2 founding songwriters each went on to form somewhat similar groups, "Donor Dave & the Cups on the Doorstep," and "Regretful Daddy and the Secret Vasectomies." The former is more upbeat dad-rock, and they just released their first single, "No Need to Bring Fancy-Pants Doctors and Lawyers Into It." Regretful Daddy is more wry acoustic, with song titles like "[You're] The Best Sperm Donation Mistake I Ever Made"...

BubbaSteel 2 years, 4 months ago

It's true that some people do not follow the training they recieve, and it's apparent in this case. It's unfair to blame the guy's right to protect himself with wanting to be a "hero"....just as you'd think it unfair if you're ever the victim of violent crime and nothing gets done about it. Life's not fair. But that does not mean the alternative is to punish everybody for one man's lack of better judgement. I like the previous comment another post presented about carring the weapon where the round is not chambered for two reasons. The first is because this type of accident is 100% preventable by carring in that manner and the second is because in my own personal experience I have found that racking the slide as I pull it from a firm IWB holster (Which points at nobody regardles of how I sit except for myself.) has an unnerving effect on the people who were just attacking me. The two times I have used my concealed weapon in this mannor made it so I didn't even need to fire it. Seeing me produce it while racking the slide and bringing it to sight was enough to stop my attackers in their tracks. I hope the woman has a quick recovery and this man learns to properly carry from now on. Sad that his lack of understanding may cost him his paid for license...sadder that he now has to re-think his methodology for self protection from some who don't abide by laws or pay for the licesnse.

tomatogrower 2 years, 4 months ago

You don't get that much training in a concealed carry class. Personally I have never felt the need to show my gun to anyone. What kind of places do you hang out. Maybe start going to classier places?

voevoda 2 years, 4 months ago

I don't think that it is "sad" if the shooter loses his license. He ought to.

beatrice 2 years, 4 months ago

Any proof of criminals targeting businesses because of no firearms signs, or are you just making stuff up?

beatrice 2 years, 4 months ago

Your hunch about what criminals think is not evidence.

People rob banks all the time, yet banks have security guards who are often armed, they have cameras, and a higher rate of conviction than other forms of robbery. Why? Because banks have what criminals want, it has nothing to do with whether or not guns are allowed inside.

beatrice 2 years, 4 months ago

Again, you are incapable of supporting your arguments with facts ... as usual.

greatgatsby 2 years, 4 months ago

Newtown, CT. Virginia Tech. Columbine, CO. Portland, OR mall. Aurora, CO. Oikos College in Oakland CA. North Hollywood Shootout. Seems that the vast majority of these mass shootings that everyone references happen at places that do not allow firearms.

Katara 2 years, 4 months ago

I am not understanding why you would keep your gun in the same pocket as other items.

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 4 months ago

Because the guy is an idiot, obviously. . . Protip: When pocket carrying a firearm you should 1) use a holster that covers the weapon's trigger 2) keep firearm on "safe" and 3) not carry anything else in the same pocket as the firearm.

Pocket Rig.

Pocket Rig. by Crazy_Larry

Eugehne Normandin 2 years, 4 months ago

Texting while driving kills. anyone up for banning cell phones??

voevoda 2 years, 4 months ago

Banning cell phones, swampyankee, no. Banning texting while driving, yes. First time caught at it, even if there was no accident--lose your driver's license for a year and pay $10,000 fine. Any accident or any second offense--lose your license for life.

Banning guns, swampyankee, no. Banning any misuse, yes, whether or not any harm occurred. First time caught, even if there was no one hurt--lose your right to own firearms for a year and pay a $10,000 fine. Any accident or any second offense--lose your right to bear arms for life.

Topple 2 years, 4 months ago

swampyankee, meet straw man.

Cell phones aren't designed to kill. Weapons are designed to kill. That is their purpose. Constant diversion of attention from guns to other issues never gets old from the pro-gun crowd.

BubbaSteel 2 years, 4 months ago

tomatogrower, How nice of you to judge my situation where you assume I hang out in trashy places. I've posted previously about my situations where CCW have been used to thawt attacks on my person, but perhaps you missed them, so let me enlighten you.

The first was when I was 7 years old. On a camping trip my father used one to protect us while in the camper from 2 individuals who decided to mess with us. Displaying it and racking the slide got them to leave. Fast.

The second, less then 2 blocks from my own home, walking back from the grocery store (Where I sometimes go to procure items my family needs to survive...a real trashy place..) Several men decided to make sport out of me by thowing beer bottles. I ignored the first two...the thrid was a near miss to my head, I decided there didn't need to be a forth. Again, the act of racking the slide and pointing it was all I needed to do to end the harrassment...but you being a better person then I and avoiding doing trashy things like innocently walking home with a bag of groceries would have took the highroad and asked them politely to stop I suppose...good for you.

The third, two houses down from me an out of control party or nearly 40 people erupted into the streets. Oh, forgot to mention, I live at the dump didn't I....because you only need to defend yourself while you're in trashy places right? Several guys were beating another man senseless and I used my gun to get them to stop. (Don't have pepper spray or tazers in trash land ya know.) I had already called the police and helped others leave safely but it was nearly a riot condition still. It took a while for the police to arrive and gain control. They did not mind that I was protecting my yard from hooligans as they arrived.

Now to address your accusation that you don't learn much in a ccw class. I took it and know for a fact you are required to bring a holster. Anything after the class is based on how the permit holder wishes to protect themself or be negligent after taking the class. While my own personal training goes far beyond the 8 hours of class and 15 minutes of range time, I believe what the class offers as state minimum is sufficent for anybody of average intelligence.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 4 months ago

Facts of life are that if you pull a gun on a bunch of drunks in near riot conditions, you're just as likely to provoke whichever of them are also armed into starting a shootout.

So you're likely more lucky than you are heroic. (a statement that anyone of average intelligence ought to be able to understand.)

jafs 2 years, 4 months ago

Your examples seem to indicate that you don't live in the nicest neighborhood, if people throw beer bottles at you for sport and have large out of control parties 2 houses away, in which people are beating one another senseless.

You might want to consider moving to a better one, if that's feasible. Then you might not feel the need to carry your gun everywhere you go.

Personally, I've never had anybody throw beer bottles at me, and I've never lived 2 houses away from such an event, and I've lived in some pretty cheap and sketchy neighborhoods.

Also, if the training is sufficient, but permit holders act negligently afterwards, then there should at the very least be periodic retesting to retain the licenses, and those who act that way should lose the license.

BubbaSteel 2 years, 4 months ago

I agree with you jafs, but I think a better more proactive way would be for the people who give the training to maybe have news letters to their pupils, to remind them of safe handeling, current laws and ways to keep up practice as well as shoot no shoot situations senarios. As for my neighborhood, it's usually not too bad. about 4 blocks North of Checkers. But I'm between several streets that are veins for all types of traffic. 99% of the time it's nice and quit, except around 3 and 5pm. But that does not mean I should not be prepaired. I travel around town alot, and I have a past dealing with criminals that may someday want payback. I don't live in fear because I doubt most will consider it. I'm also adept at empty hand defense and don't normally need a side arm, but it's nice to have if I am in a situation where I'm out numbered...like with the riot or bottle throwers, or an armed criminal or mentally ill person. but I lead a pretty peacefull life now. My gun is in the right hands and helps maintain that when an ugly situation arises. And unlike in my military career, I've never had to fire my ccw.

Leslie Swearingen 2 years, 4 months ago

BubbaSteel Thank you for the comment. It is the best one I have read so far since it is based on personal experience. Those things do happen and I would not go all snobby and say that only happen in areas that have been officially classified as trashy. When people get drunk or on drugs they do all kind of things and it doesn't matter where they are.

BubbaSteel 2 years, 4 months ago

Thanks frankie8.. I am glad I'm not the only person who understands that.

PhilChiles 2 years, 4 months ago

Ok, how about this: we let anybody do concealed carry without a permit, but you can ONLY have a rifle or shotgun. You would pretty much have to stick it down one pant leg; that way, if someone is walking around with a stilted goofy walk, you know they're packing heat. And here's the best part: everyone would start walking around like that! Crime plummets as confused criminals never know who to victimize! There is no downside to this plan.

verity 2 years, 4 months ago

Like Bob on the Red Green Show?

Oh my, the humanity !

fiddleback 2 years, 4 months ago

As someone who proudly wears an antiquated leg brace and has been mercilessly mocked esp. since the movie Forrest Gump came out, I have mixed feelings about this plan. On the upside, people's first instincts would now be to fear me rather than make fun of me. On the other hand, having straight-legged limps suddenly en vogue would really make me bitter about growing up 2 decades too early...

JazzHawks 2 years, 4 months ago

More Guns = More Deaths. That is the simple math.

Uncle_Jerry 2 years, 4 months ago

More armed citizens = less violent crime.

Topple 2 years, 4 months ago

There may be some flaws in this "math."

greatgatsby 2 years, 4 months ago

More Guns, Less Crime. A book written with empirical facts from around the country and the world by a world renowned economist John Lott. I implore all anti-firearm people to please please educate yourselves about firearms, the laws, and the statistics before you begin ranting about how evil they, and those who use them, are. It's the very same thing you ask of us conservatives when we speak out against something we don't believe in, if you don't it's quite hypocritical.

voevoda 2 years, 4 months ago

Linda L. Dahlberg, "Guns in the Home and Risk of Violent Death in the Home: Findings from a National Study," American Journal of Epidemiology, volume 160, number 10 (November 15, 2004). The risk of violent death in the home is 8 times higher in households that possess firearms than in households that do not. The risk of suicide is 30 times higher in households that possess firearms than in households that do not.

Please educate yourselves about firearms and the statistics before you begin ranting.

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 4 months ago

So people want to kill themselves because a gun is in the house? I doubt it.

voevoda 2 years, 4 months ago

The evidence, Crazy_Larry, is incontrovertable. Here is how the authors of the article explain it:

"Victims of suicide living in homes with guns were more than 30 times more likely to have died from a firearm-related suicide than from one committed with a different method. Guns are highly lethal, require little preparation, and may be chosen over less lethal methods to commit suicide, particularly when the suicide is impulsive. Suicidal persons may also be more likely to acquire a gun to commit suicide and, given the lethality of the weapon, are more likely to complete suicide, although the evidence on this point is mixed."

greatgatsby 2 years, 4 months ago

And perhaps that is true, but at the same time, the Department of Justice has published studies saying that "the probability of serious injury from being attacked is 2.5 times greater for women offering no resistance than for women resisting with a gun and 4 times when resisting without a gun. For men the numbers are 1.4 and 1.5 respectively." I simply believe that people should have the right to defend themselves and statistics from our government show that if attacked, we are more safe by defending ourselves with a firearm than without or not at all.

repaste 2 years, 4 months ago

" world renowned economist" ?! Same guy who said women should not vote and abortion was good because it lowered crime rates?

Mike Myers 2 years, 4 months ago

Can we get the guy's name? I think the world should know. Might make others think twice about packing heat in an unsafe manner.

fiddleback 2 years, 4 months ago

I have a vague idea to whom you're referring, but what's more amusing is that you could literally post that sentiment on just about any story, which I think you should now do. Also, do you mind if I borrow it for my tombstone?

jafs 2 years, 4 months ago

And yet, he had a concealed carry permit.

Hmmm.

In_God_we_trust 2 years, 4 months ago

Perhaps the wife will be able to find some Kevlar hose, before the next time he takes her out to eat. But I bet the wife will insist on carrying the gun the next time they go out.

Rick Aldrich 2 years, 4 months ago

some idiots need toy guns!!!!!!!!!! I hunted all my life and had firearms up until about 25 years ago when i was robbed by some crack head needing a fix. and that's when i realized my weapons just made their way onto the streets of Lawrence and into the hands of trouble to be so i felt i really didn't need one that bad anymore. i personally think the right to carry is an ego inflate opportunity. sorry tough guy pistol packers. take idiot #1 who whoops! i shot my wife. what if that was one of you gun totten super freaks little one setting with you and mom having a nice quite dinner when someone at another tables gun accidentally went off. how would you feel then about someone being able to carry a gun where ever??????????????????????????????????

hedshrinker 2 years, 4 months ago

can't believe nobody commented on the fact this occurred in the Longbranch Saloon, oops I mean Steakhouse.

BubbaSteel 2 years, 4 months ago

Hey just another bozo,

So answer me this, if it's a fact of life that my protecting my and my neighborhood as well as all these visitors is going to just provoke a shooting....Why didn't it?

You call it lucky.....perhaps, I'm more apt to think it was my 11 years in the military police kicking in. Maybe some of us "heroic" people are just good at knowing how to defend ourselves and don't mind extending that to someone being mericilessly beaten. I'm sure if it were you caught up in it, you wouldn't mind someone coming to your aid now would you? Or....maybe you'd like to wait for the police while you try to protect yourself from the next stomp or kick?

Im pretty sure none of the punks envolved in that episode were near as hardcore as the cartels in South America....but i'm betting that doesn't matter to the guy getting beat. Just because you feel like "luck" is what held the neighborhood together that night doesn't mean you're going to hoodwink anybody who refuses to be a victim or watch others be victimized.

I've stated before that most ccw permit holders are unjustly thought of as Rambo wanna be types...the fact they don't go out looking for trouble at night proves they are not. But when trouble shows up in your yard at 3:00am unprovoked I hope you can deal with it half as well. Should the situation had gone South I am certain that my training would have kicked in even more. While the drunk (Not sure if they actually were in this case, just trouble makers.) is pulling out his gat and canting his gun to pop off rounds gangsta style, I'm sure my superior training, experience and mind set is going to prevail.

But if luck is what you rely on to survivie a close encounter of the ugly kind more of it to ya....cuz yer gonna need it.

beatrice 2 years, 4 months ago

What? Talk of hardcore cartels in South America, coming to the rescue, gats and canting guns and popping off rounds gangsta style ... why would anyone equate such language with someone thinking himself a Rambo who is going to save the world from thugs?

Honest, lines like that don't read as silly macho bravado at all. No, not at all.

Leslie Swearingen 2 years, 4 months ago

I totally agree with you. It would be nice to have a class for senior citizens, and those in wheelchairs, to learn how to protect themselves from harm if they get caught in such a situation. It is not impossible. Someone had their application denied from the landlord at a place I used to live at where their were several buildings. In retribution he set fire to the building next door from mine and shot out the doors and windows on the first floor of my building. I was on the third, but it scared me to death.

BubbaSteel 2 years, 4 months ago

Touringdriver,

It is unfourtunate that you were robbed and unable to secure your firearm. One could argue that it was your choice of securment or lack thereof that allowed it to happen. I'm not accusing, I'm just saying, and it's a shame it turned you bitter towards gun ownership, but as your name here implies do you not drive on roads almost everyday that you have to share with other drivers? Isn't it the same with gun ownership where you would like to assume that all other owners responsibly keep their weapon(s) safe. I drive a lot and especially at night and every week I see people on the road who don't follow safe driving principals, and it erks me that I'm at risk for that. Just as we are from anybody with a weapon who dosent understand or respect it enough to be with it. I know accidents happen. But negligence is not an accident its a lack of foresight. I'm not saying everybody should live in condition yellow 24/7 and be paranoid, but they should be prepaired. On the road, out for dinner, or in what you think is gonna be a soothing evening at home. It's just the world we live in. Guns are as ubiquitous as bacteria, and people who are affraid of them remind me of compulsive hand washers who in advertently dry out their skin and make chapped cracks for more bacteria to enter them. If they just leave it alone, the body's natural flora will take care of most bad bacteria from causing harm. But most people don't take that into consideration, just like some gun owners don't know the safest way to carry their responsiblity. And when you choose to carry, it is a responsibilty. This accident was 100% avodiable, but the lad didn't see fit to properly carry. Just like some don't see fit to follow speed limits, it don't mean we need to call everybody freaks. It means we have to be responsible, teach responsiblity and expect the unexpected while hoping it never happens to us. The part about having someone accidentally shooting our kid...or wife, like I said...the "accidental" discharge was 100% guanteed not to happen if he didn't have a round chambered and an ineffective method for carry.

beatrice 2 years, 4 months ago

Yes, this accident was 100% avoidable. If you don't carry a gun, I guarantee that 100% of the time you will never accidentally shoot someone. Guaranteed.

beatrice 2 years, 4 months ago

"You" will never shoot someone ... but that C&C (canine and carry) of yours might.

bondmen 2 years, 4 months ago

Why would a responsible gun owner put his/her finger on the trigger to begin with? And why would a responsible gun owner keep a round in the chamber if it's a semi-auto? Mistakes can be made and thankfully this one was not more serious. However he may have lost his dinner mate from now on, unless he leaves his protection at home!

beatrice 2 years, 4 months ago

This is because not all gun owners, even those with C&C permits, are responsible. That is kind of the point of those wanting greater restrictions / limitations / training requirements.

rdkone 2 years, 4 months ago

I'm still waiting to read about the hero with a concealed weapon that saves the day. Please , local events only.

50YearResident 2 years, 4 months ago

If you ever read about a local event, I am sure you will call the people involved names like "Rambo", "Wanna be Cops" and other names instead of thanking them for their effort. Every day you don't read any of those stories is a great day for all concealed carry license holders, but that doesn't seem to register to "haters" like you, does it?

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 4 months ago

Topekan With Permit Stops Robbery By Firing Shots. http://www.wibw.com/home/headlines/51738527.html?site=full

Store customer who shot a would-be robber late Friday in Topeka was carrying a handgun legally because he possesses an Oklahoma concealed-carry license. http://cjonline.com/stories/012307/loc_140783470.shtml

Kansas Citizen's Gun Defense Blog http://gundefenseblog.wordpress.com/category/ks/page/2/

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 4 months ago

It happens more often than the mass shootings that we hear about constantly.

2 Jan 2013 - Homeowner shoots suspect during home invasion. http://www.ksn.com/news/local/story/Homeowner-shoots-suspect-during-home-invasion/9fYDMtx0kUS1P4pfHKFBGQ.cspx

12 December 2012 - Homeowner shoots intruder near Mulvane. http://www.ksn.com/news/local/story/Homeowner-shoots-intruder-near-Mulvane/4DnJYxSqaEW1wWtNN2mEew.cspx

23 November 2012 - Wichita store clerk shoots, kills robbery suspect. http://cjonline.com/news/2012-11-23/wichita-store-clerk-shoots-kills-robbery-suspect

15 August 2012 - Wounding of home invasion suspect leads to 4 arrests. http://cjonline.com/news/2012-08-15/wounding-home-invasion-suspect-leads-4-arrests

dolphins4321 2 years, 4 months ago

Some of you act like one has to have a CC to carry a gun somewhere! I'm sure the guy who went on a shooting rampage in CO had a permit, and the guy at Sandy Hook, and all the other shootings like these that have happened. Seriously??? It doesn't matter, if a crazy person wants to harm people they will find a way. If you are responsible with your weapon and carry it properly, you can avoid this type of accident of shooting your wife in the leg! I wait for the day that one of you are in a public place and someone with a CC comes to your rescue when a crazy armed person starts shooting at random! Oh wait, that's already happened, yet it doesn't get reported like the rest of these stories!

voevoda 2 years, 4 months ago

Does it happen that someone carrying a weapon interrupts a lethal crime in progress? Yes, occasionally it does. More often than not, the person who comes to the rescue is an off-duty police officer or member of the military--that is, someone with advanced firearms training and experience in assessing complex and dangerous situations.

But that isn't the most frequent scenario, dolphins. What happens much more commonly is this: persons with too little training, who are negligent or excitable or self-important, fire their guns in the absence of any real threat, and injure or kill someone.

I don't understand, dolphins, why you would want to allow unskilled people to continue to carry weapons, as though that is the "price" we have to pay in order to allow skilled, responsible people to carry weapons. It's not.

BubbaSteel 2 years, 4 months ago

rdkone, Most of the time concealed carry is used for personal protection and never reported. You don't have to stop a mass shooting. In fact if you never even need it is a better thing. You said you wanted local stories, but it sounds like you want sensationalism. I never called the police in my example of being assulted while walking home from the store. Odd that the guys throwing bottles at me didn't either isn't it? I mean after all, I man just pointed a gun at them....shouldn't they call the police? They knew they picked the wrong guy. No hero crap about it. Unless protecting your own life is viewed by someone like you as heroic and not just a nessassary.

Beatrice, Have you been the victim of a violent crime before? If no, I am glad for that...but if you have, I don't know why you would ever want someone to not have the upperhand while defending themselves. As far as my Rambo rehetoric as you pointed out, It's not my fault I found myself in that situation. The funny thing is however, that in my youth my military experience some would say did put me on par with Rambo, but thats not me anymore. Now I'm aging, I don't jump outta helicoptors with an M-60 anymore. I'm not in a situation where I have to. But I'm not gonna stand around silently or cower when deviants terrorize people. Call me crazy but when I took an oath to protect, I meant it. And I've dealt with worse, more dangerous scum then those punks. The reference to gats and canted gun shooting was to insinuate that after a career of dealing with hardened thugs, I'm not too worried about opportunistic ones with less experience in violence management then myself. That being said, I like my 100% method of safely protecting myself much better then yours. I'm glad you have not lived a life where you've dealt with the criminal element while they were being criminals. But I have. So what's a vet to do?

verity 2 years, 4 months ago

I always tell myself I'm not going to wade into these free for all, same all same all brawls again, but I have one thing to say.

I remember a time not long ago when the British police didn't carry guns. Then there was a proliferation of guns in certain areas and now the police have begun to carry in those more dangerous areas.

We have opened Pandora's Box and now our country is flooded with guns, and, yes, the more guns there are, the easier it is for criminals to get one. I know that each one of the gun owners posting here are always responsible, etc., but the truth is a lot of people with legal weapons are not.

Analogies to other situations don't work because there is nothing you can compare to guns.

Does anyone have a problem with extending backgrounds checks to everyone trying to purchase a gun and taking away licenses if guns are not stored and handled responsibly? The pendulum usually swings and if some reasonable restrictions are not agreed to, you maybe facing a lot tighter restrictions.

As is often the case, Jon Stewart seems to be the most sensible person on the subject.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/tue-january-8-2013-stanley-mcchrystal

beerbaron03 2 years, 4 months ago

to everyone asking why he was carrying a loaded gun in his pocket into a restaurant:

obviously he's compensating for some other type of, shall we say, shortcomings. he probably also drives a big pickup truck for the same reason.

Leslie Swearingen 2 years, 4 months ago

Do we really need to be insulting people with bad sex jokes at a time like this? I am an old woman and if I could afford it I would have a Hummer and a Mossberg over and under. What does that mean?

beerbaron03 2 years, 4 months ago

i was referring to a lack of self-esteem - what are you speaking of?

beatrice 2 years, 4 months ago

Only those who call for "all guns" to be banned are calling for the banning of all guns. Even if people are saying they don't agree with or see the necessity for someone to carry concealed, they still aren't saying "all guns should be banned." Since people aren't saying this, why bring it into the discussion?

Your bringing that extreme into the argument is as silly as saying gun owners won't be happy until all gradeschoolers are going to school packing heat in order to protect themselves.

jafs 2 years, 4 months ago

Not true at all.

There are important distinctions to be made if we want to have a reasonable discussion about the issue.

There may be some who want to ban all guns, but most aren't in that category, any more than most gun enthusiasts want the right to have nuclear weapons, and exaggerating what people are trying to say isn't helpful.

Personally, I think that CC holders should have to be periodically re-tested - does that make me "anti-gun"?

beatrice 2 years, 4 months ago

Gandalf, putting an exclaimation point at the end of your comment doesn't make it any more accurate. You have zero evidence that those opposed to C&C laws want all guns banned. That really is silly to make that stand. I'm also not anti-C&C, but do feel training should be greater (I know several gun owners who agree) and I do like what jafs mentioned of periodic re-testing. That hardly puts me (or jafs) in the "ban all guns" crowd. (!)

jafs 2 years, 4 months ago

I don't accept your characterization of "anti CC" any more than I do "anti gun".

Wanting a program, like CC permitting, to work as it's intended to work isn't being "anti" that program.

Your comments about "infringing" the right fail to take into account years of court precedent concluding that a variety of regulations don't "infringe" the right.

How many accidental deaths are acceptable to you? Does it matter whether or not they're children/adults?

This story is clearly one that could have been a lot worse, and very possibly prevented, if the guy had to have training on how to store/use his gun safely, and demonstrate that, at periodic intervals.

beatrice 2 years, 4 months ago

Okay G., I will just put you in the pro-bazooka camp. No talk of reasonable limitations is reasonable for you, thus you must believe all citizens, even those with mental illnesses, should have access to all arms ever produced at all times. To do otherwise would be to limit them of their rights and if there is any agreement with any limit is the same as being in the ban all guns camp. You aren't in the ban all guns camp, which can only mean you are pro-bazookas for all. (sigh)

jafs 2 years, 4 months ago

I don't know what you mean by the last comment.

I'm a law abiding non gun owner, and I have an excellent "safety record" - I've never shot anybody by accident or on purpose. As such, I have a better safety record than the guy in Lenexa, who by all accounts appears to be a law abiding gun owner with a CC permit.

You seem to vary arguments between wanting to be reasonable and not caring about that - it's a little disconcerting.

jafs 2 years, 4 months ago

Ok.

Now I understand why it's not actually possible to have a reasonable discussion with you about this issue - thank you for clarifying that. Your last sentence is a very clear example of what's wrong with your reasoning. Even though I don't own a gun, I'm not anti gun, have considered it over the years, etc. The idea that the world is divided into two groups, those who own guns, and anti-gunners is absurd.

People who own guns also generally own cars, and have varying safety records with those as well, of course. Parking tickets aren't safety issues, for the most part.

jafs 2 years, 4 months ago

Ok, since you're tired of reasonable discussion, I guess I'll stop now.

It's obvious to me that if CC training doesn't include safely handling guns, then including that would help prevent these sorts of things, which would be a good thing.

Arguments that people will break the laws, so why bother having them, aren't very convincing to me, nor are arguments that because nothing will be perfect, we shouldn't try to improve anything.

jafs 2 years, 4 months ago

Since you've explained very clearly in your above post why/how it's not possible to have a reasonable discussion with you about this topic, I'll stop trying to do that.

Crazy_Larry 2 years, 4 months ago

Harry Reid concealed carry licensee. Here he attends the opening of Clark County shooting park.

beatrice 2 years, 4 months ago

Too bad we don't have film of Vice President Dick Cheney hunting with his friends.

oldbaldguy 2 years, 4 months ago

holsters are a good thing. once upon a time I had to attend a briefing and I did not want to gear up so I stuck by M9 service pistol inside my pants in the small of my back. when I got up to leave the briefing, the pistol fell down my leg to my boot. pants were bloused so I was not embarrassed by having a loaded pistol pop out on the floor in front of a bunch of troops. there was no round in the chamber. after that always wore a holster.

benbahe 2 years, 4 months ago

Permit and proper training? wow....who was the trainer?

beatrice 2 years, 4 months ago

And does every student who attends pass? How many students fail and are denied a permit?

Hoots 2 years, 4 months ago

Many governments have disarmed their citizens in the past 100 years. 260 million of those people were killed shortly after by said government. That is one reason the 2nd Amendment was written. Stalin did it, Hitler did it, the Japanese did it in every nation they set foot in during WW2, China did it, Cambodia did it, remember The Killing Fields, this has also happened all over the African continent as well. These governments proceeded in short order to exterminate people due to everything from education to religion, ethnic background, political beliefs, and political paranoia. Throughout history people in power have done anything and everything to keep their power. Power is corrupting and our forefathers knew that. So do you want to see a day when you are not allowed to comment here because your government decides to limit or take your right to free speech away? You say that can't happen today. It goes on every single day in countries all over the world. How many sections in our Constitution or Bill of Rights do you want to throw out? It seems to me the Bill of Rights was written in order of importance to our Forefathers.

beatrice 2 years, 4 months ago

Okay, so lets not talk about disarming citizens. Does your right to arms give you the rights to ALL arms? What is a reasonable limitation in your opinion -- for instance, I suspect you are in favor of disarming citizens with serious mental illnesses, or are in favor of limits such as no bazookas for the mentally ill. Does that mean you are on the side of disarming ALL citizens? No. So lets have a reasonable discussion of what limits are sound. Okay? Can we do that without bringing Hitler into the mix?

globehead 2 years, 4 months ago

This man is too stupid to carry a gun. He's too stupid to eat in a public restaurant. He's especially too stupid to visit Lenexa, Kansas where the chances of being a violent crime victim virtually makes all the numbers except zero unnecessary. In order for the rest of us to be safe, what we need is his name. He needs to be publicly humiliated!

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