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Kansas legislature

Kansas Legislature

Sweeping abortion bill sent to governor

April 5, 2013

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Kansas legislators gave final passage to a sweeping anti-abortion measure Friday, sending Gov. Sam Brownback a bill that declares life begins “at fertilization” while blocking tax breaks for abortion providers and banning abortions performed solely because of the baby’s sex.

Brownback is likely to sign the bill into law.

The bill passed despite any solid data on how many sex-selection abortions are performed in Kansas. A 2008 study by two Columbia University economists suggested the practice of aborting female fetuses — widespread in some nations where parents traditionally prefer sons — is done in the U.S. on a limited basis.

Abortion-rights supporters contend there’s no evidence of such procedures in Kansas, but abortion foes believe it’s a growing problem because of more sophisticated prenatal testing.

The bill also blocks tax breaks for abortion providers and prohibits their involvement in public school sex education classes. It also would spell out in more detail what information doctors must provide to patients before performing abortions.

Abortion opponents argue the bill lessens the state’s entanglement with terminating pregnancies. Abortion-rights advocates see it as a serious threat to access to abortion services.

The measure also declares as a general principle that life begins “at fertilization.”

That type of idea is embodied in “personhood” measures in other states. Such measures are aimed at revising their constitutions to ban all abortions, and none have been enacted, though North Dakota voters will have one on the ballot in 2014.

But Kansas lawmakers aren’t trying to change the state constitution, and the measure notes that any rights suggested by the language are limited by decisions of the U.S. Supreme Court. It declared in its historic Roe v. Wade decision in 1973 that women have a right to obtain abortions in some circumstances, and has upheld that decision while allowing increasing restrictions by states.

Thirteen states, including Missouri, have similar language to the Kansas bill in their laws, according to the National Right to Life Committee.

Abortion opponents say the “at fertilization” language is akin to a statement of principle and not a legally enforceable ban on the procedure. Abortion-rights advocates are skeptical of that stance.

Comments

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 1 year, 8 months ago

When will they declare that every sperm is sacred?

Kate Rogge 1 year, 8 months ago

Looks like it to me. How about neighbors, co-workers, pharmacists, and doctors turning pregnant women into the state for GPS tracking anklets and delivery jails? Border crossing guards with transvaginal ultrasound wands? Surely Kansas women aren't actually American citizens too?

Cait McKnelly 1 year, 8 months ago

It's funny that Kansas feels such rivalry with Missouri they even have to be ahead of them in the race to the bottom. Missouri at least had the sense to get rid of Todd Aikin. Aikin was just ignorantly cruel to rape victims. Pilcher-Cook heaped insult on top of it.
Fitzgerald's bombast comparing anti-abortionism to "civil rights" about sent David Haley (of the "Roots" Haleys. He's Alex Haley's nephew.) into a stroke. (Earlier in the week, Haley called the law "Taliban-like".)
If the outcome wasn't so god awful serious, it would almost be amusing watching the Kansas legislature at work.

Cait McKnelly 1 year, 8 months ago

I often wonder why men think women who don't want babies get deliberately pregnant. They seem to think that having an abortion is like going to Worlds of Fun.

jhawkinsf 1 year, 8 months ago

Cait was responding to a post that has since been deleted.

I've often said it's frustrating that a post is deleted, with no indication that it was ever there. It gives the impression that one is responding to air.

rtwngr 1 year, 8 months ago

I often wonder why some people think that killing a human being is acceptable. They seem to think that a human life is something that can be thrown away like some kind of refuse.

Wayne James 1 year, 8 months ago

They need to protest ALL ROMAN Catholic churches. They prefer on not use condoms or birth control pills/devices. They seem to preach that children are wonderful and all women should get p/g and NEVER seek to abort the fetus and carry it to full term. If they can't afford to care for the child, then God will provide the care.....along with EVERYONE else in the community. OR they let them grow and turn them loose in Wally World or some other dept store and let them run wild for everyone else to care for/watch out for them. These kids run and scream and pull merchandise off the shelves (destroying some of it in the process), who pays for this malicious damage???? YOU and ME. The retailer has to increase their prices to make up for the "shrinkage". I can't afford to continually pay (nor will I care) for someone else's spoiled brats!

Leslie Swearingen 1 year, 8 months ago

I shop at Walmart quite frequently and never once have I saw this happen. Say, have you commented on here before? You just sound familiar.

mom_of_three 1 year, 8 months ago

because some people don't believe a zygot is a human since it can't breath outside of the womb. Other people think that the human being who is CARRYING the fetus has rights just as important, and not merely an incubator.

Nevernever 1 year, 8 months ago

So tell me, how do you grant full rights to both the mother and the fetus, so that neither of their rights can be trumped by the other. I've never gotten an answer to this.

Greg Cooper 1 year, 8 months ago

You don't. Rarely, and especially in cases like this, do all parties get all they want. the hard part is being reasonable for the most people most of the time.

In my opinion, the one who deserves the most consideration is the one who is already a functioning person, who has the most to lose, and who should be the one to make the decision that concerns her life, and not that of some bureaucrat or politician who is pandering to the lowest common denominator. In other words, to the money.

Liberty275 1 year, 8 months ago

the fetus has no rights. There's your answer.

Nevernever 1 year, 8 months ago

That is not the answer to the question. The question isn't who has rights and who doesn't. The question is: How do you grant full rights to both the mother and the fetus without one having rights that trump the other's.

Liberty275 1 year, 8 months ago

"How do you grant full rights to both the mother and the fetus"

The constitution protects no rights of fetuses.

Nevernever 1 year, 8 months ago

Again, the question is: How do you grant full rights to both the mother and the fetus without one having rights that trump the other's. Not what are the current constitutional rights of a fetus. Try to pay attention in critical thinking class, please.

Keith 1 year, 8 months ago

I'll anxiously await your protest of our next war then.

Wayne James 1 year, 8 months ago

Any time Keith. I have had it "up to here" with wars. Actually, perhaps you didn't realize that Korea and Vietnam were not WARS. They were POLICE ACTIONS, not declared wars. I don't recall hearing Congress officially declaring WAR in the middle east. This was a George W. Bush retaliation for the NYC onslaught 9/11/01, or in my opinion, a showing to daddy Bush that HE could get Saddam Hussein in where daddy failed. Saddam Hussein & his band of murders had NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH THE BOMBING OF THE WORLD TRADE CENTERS. That responsibility was accepted by BIN LADEN, Not Hussein. It took too many American Soldiers lives and countless dollars to eventually catch Mr Bin Laden who got his just desserts......a bullet in the head and eventual SHARK BAIT/FODDER, Thanks to our President, Mr Barack Obama, who had backbone enough to stand up and order the strike that killed Bin Laden. G.W. Bush had no spine to find or even look for the A/H that had such a hatred for our freedoms that HE ordered the strikes (twice) on the Twin Towers.

elliottaw 1 year, 8 months ago

I think viagria and what not should be illegal too, if you can't perform that must be god working to protect the rest of us from more of you

rtwngr 1 year, 8 months ago

One more thing, cait48 why do you want to make men the issue here? Recently a spokesperson for Planned Parenthood stood before Florida congressional committee and stated that if a child is born alive as a result of a botched abortion, the decision on whether that child lives or dies should be between the doctor and the mother. Are you kidding me? This is a living human being. There is no decision here. This human deserves every chance at life as you and I. Animals in our society receive more compassion than this!

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 1 year, 8 months ago

"Recently a spokesperson for Planned Parenthood stood before Florida congressional committee and stated that if a child is born alive as a result of a botched abortion, the decision on whether that child lives or dies should be between the doctor and the mother."

Current abortion laws mean that aborted fetuses are almost never viable. So it was a stupid hypothetical posed for "gotcha" purpose, and it was answered very poorly. It contributes absolutely nothing to the discussion of this issue.

Wayne James 1 year, 8 months ago

ANY decision to abort a fetus, should be a PRIVATE matter between mother and doctor........NOT ONE FOR PUBLIC ATTENTION!!!!!!! The public has no business sticking their noses where they don't belong. All the RTL committe's need to worry more about feeding these unwanted children that are brought into this world only to be raised as hoodlums or turned loose in the department store to terrorize other shoppers by running unsupervised, grabbing at everything and screaming their heads off.

In_God_we_trust 1 year, 8 months ago

Doctors and Mothers should not be in the business of taking life, but only saving life.

denak 1 year, 8 months ago

You obviously didn't read the article. The two reasons given for the rise were the decrease in Medicaid and gun ownership. Abortion isn't mentioned.

Cait McKnelly 1 year, 8 months ago

I have to disagree, denak. Abortion isn't mentioned in that article but there is no denying that lack of access to it will contribute to increasing female mortality, if for no other reason than the increase in maternal death. According to the World Health Organization, in countries where abortion is outlawed, as much as 24% of maternal death is attributed to illegal abortion. There is also the impact of the fact that, according to the CDC, pregnancy is 14 times more likely to kill a woman than legal abortion.
Legislators are aware of these things. I know they are. I "listened in", so to speak, on Twitter the day that Dr. Hodes testified before the legislative committee about this law and he gave them the exact same statistics. Didn't even faze them. They DON'T CARE.

rtwngr 1 year, 8 months ago

Well, you and I don't live in a third world country and this legislation has nothing to do with that. The CDC gets their unsubstantiated facts from pro murder organizations like Planned Parenthood.

Cait McKnelly 1 year, 8 months ago

Really? Tell me how they do that rtwngr. Please. Inquiring minds want to know. I was always under the impression that the CDC got their data exactly from where they said they got it; reporting states.
I'll have to let my friends know that government agencies now get their data from non-governmental sources. I'm sure they will be interested.
In the meantime, you just keep drinking the Kool-Aid.

John McCoy 1 year, 8 months ago

I am sorry to note that Kansas is acting more like Texas every day. This preoccupation with women's uteruses boggles.

tomatogrower 1 year, 8 months ago

So, are they going to persecute, I mean prosecute, women who have ectopic pregnancies? Or do they even know what that is? The egg is fertilized, but fails to attach properly. Sometimes the body just aborts it with little consequence, but many times it's life threatening to the woman. Oh I forgot, the radical right could care less about women. Please quit calling yourselves pro-life, and start calling yourselves pro fetus. You are not pro life.

Cait McKnelly 1 year, 8 months ago

They aren't even pro fetus. They want to force women into birthing babies with overwhelming deformities just so they can watch them die. Nope, they are pro forced birth.

Gareth Skarka 1 year, 8 months ago

I'm sure this bill will create thousands of jobs for Kansas.

Right?

Can we please drop the fiction that the GOP is about fiscal responsibility and job creation? They're the American Taliban. This is what you've voted for, Kansas. Enjoy it.

Leslie Swearingen 1 year, 8 months ago

To me my daughter was a baby from the moment she was conceived in the womb and never anything else. In full disclosure I did use birth control and had a baby when I decided the time was right. I wanted one child and that is what I had.

I never had any difficulty with either pregnancy or birth and I do understand that other women are not so lucky. It does seem to me that there are women who are more comfortable with using scientific terms as they put a distance between themselves and the baby they are aborting. That is understandable as few of us want to confront death in any form, no matter the cause.

As I see it one of the causes of extreme anti-abortion is a lack of knowledge as to what could go wrong to necessitate such an action. I would like to see an article written by a professional stating just a few of the medical reasons why an abortion would be justified so people would have that information. Don't just tell them to Google it, because they won't do it. They need it in one place all laid out for them.

Cait McKnelly 1 year, 8 months ago

Don't deceive yourself, frankie. They know. I KNOW they know, or at least have had the information presented to them on multiple occasions. They are this way for one of two reasons (sometimes both). They are either ideologues who stick their fingers in their ears and sing lalala or else they are politicians who pander to a base of ideologues who do the same.
You can really tell the difference between an ideologue and someone who really thinks, instead of feels, by the language they use. They substitute emotional words for scientific ones, like "baby" for "fetus" and "murder" for "abortion". (By the way, in medical language, ALL pregnancy interruptions are called "abortions". What makes them different is the word used before it. A miscarriage is called a "spontaneous abortion". An abortion is any event where a pregnancy is terminated, by nature or other means, before viability.) Ideologues are feelers, not thinkers.
Every now and then you get someone who has critical thinking skills kick in or else they run smack into the concrete of a personal life event that shakes their ideology, and they leave the "movement" (apt word there, as emotions "move" people), escaping the pond for the wider ocean.
There's a good article about such a person at How I Lost Faith in the "Pro-Life" Movement.

deec 1 year, 8 months ago

"my daughter was a baby from the moment she was conceived in the womb." How in the world could you consider your daughter a child from the moment of conception? How could you even know you'd conceived?

Leslie Swearingen 1 year, 8 months ago

Of course I didn't know the moment I conceived. I was simply stating my belief. We are each of us free to believe what we choose and to use what words we choose.

I was blessed to have had a healthy baby. I cannot imagine the horror and pain of parents who have a baby with gross birth defects. In my opinion even some babies that can live deserve to be given a merciful death they are so deformed. I would not leave this in God's hands but would not interfere with the parents and the doctor.

None of us knows what will happen to us down the road and we may be cursing the interference of well meaning people. Parents who have this situation have enough to deal with without having to cope with judgmental people. Just leave them be.

rtwngr 1 year, 8 months ago

Ok Frankie, none of this legislation would affect a procedure that would save the life of a mother. This argument is a straw man because it is so rare. As a matter of fact it is as rare as abortion is supposed to be. Pro abortion advocates have thrown that aside and made it so that my daughter cannot get an aspirin at school without my permission but the school nurse can arrange for her to have an abortion without my knowledge. As a matter of fact she can have an abortion, rupture the lining of her uterus, go into shock, and they still don't have to notify me until she's dead.

yourworstnightmare 1 year, 8 months ago

Lifestyles. Like the rape mom's fac, the rape and incest mothers league, the my child is brain dead but I was forced to give birth tea club.

These anti abortion zealots want a government small enough to fit in a uterus.

Cait McKnelly 1 year, 8 months ago

BS. People DO tell the truth about abortion, you just don't want to listen and think their reasons are inadequate. Put that judgmental member back in your pants.
You aren't the single mother with three kids working two jobs to support what she's got.
You aren't the woman who was "graped" (grey rape. Look that up.) when she got ruffied at the club and woke up next to a total stranger.
You aren't the college student two semesters from a degree that could support her and a child with no problem but if forced into abandoning that will never rise above minimum wage.
You aren't the 47 year old with grandchildren who could die before another child got out of high school.
You aren't the ignorant 16 year old who only got "abstinence only" sex ed, has no idea how birth control works and wouldn't know how to access it even if she did.
These are things that seriously impact WOMEN and you just don't give a flying fling.

Kathy Getto 1 year, 8 months ago

Here let me help you understand even though cait has been very succinct.

BS = "Abortion exists largely to preserve....lifestyles."

Nevernever 1 year, 8 months ago

Birth control fails, it's possible even in cases where used properly. Parents don't always monitor their children (let the TV or internet do the babysitting) or provide adequate (or any in some cases) sex education. Rape does, in fact, result in pregnancy. Abusive husbands/boyfriends will often force their wives/girlfriends to get pregnant to bind them to them permanently.

What I wanna know is, if you're so gung ho to force women to give birth, are you also willing to help feed, educate and protect these children? (Through paying taxes or actually doing something yourself) Are you willing to help the mother provide for the child?

Chances are, no, you wouldn't. Most of these pro-birth people (because pro-life isn't the correct moniker) think their job is done simply because the child is born. To be pro-life is to provide for the children that result when abortion is outlawed or severely restricted.

deec 1 year, 8 months ago

Um, 'cuz it's nunya business why a pregnant female gets an abotion?

voevoda 1 year, 8 months ago

indrid,

The website you chose as "evidence" is an overtly propagandistic, anti-abortion site. Its information is certainly suspect. So I went to a website that is not associated with either an anti-abortion or a pro-choice association, but rather one that provides reliable medical information.

http://women.webmd.com/tc/abortion-reasons-women-choose-abortion

This is what it says:

"Reasons Women Choose Abortion

The decision to continue your pregnancy or to end it is very personal.

Each year, nearly 1.2 million American women have an abortion to end a pregnancy.

The most common reasons women consider abortion are:

Birth control (contraceptive) failure. Over half of all women who have an abortion used a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant.
Inability to support or care for a child.
To end an unwanted pregnancy.
To prevent the birth of a child with birth defects or severe medical problems. Such defects are often unknown until routine second-trimester tests are done.
Pregnancy resulting from rape or incest.
Physical or mental conditions that endanger the woman's health if the pregnancy is continued.

In the United States, 9 out of 10 abortions are performed in the first 12 weeks (first trimester) of pregnancy. Most of these are done within the first 9 weeks of pregnancy.2

Very few abortions are done after 16 weeks of pregnancy. But some women have to delay abortions because they have trouble with paying for, finding, or traveling to an abortion specialist.

If you can't tell the truth about abortion, indrid, then maybe there's something wrong with your position.

voevoda 1 year, 8 months ago

Why are you obsessed with a statistical breakdown, indrid? Women have the right to protect themselves from an intruder in their bodies, just as you have a right to protect yourself from an intruder in your home. The first line of defense is good locks. When that fails, or even if you accidentally left the door unlock, indrid, you're entitled to use deadly force. Nobody orders you to allow the intruder to take up residence for the next 9 months, at your expense and risk. Nobody orders you to assume legal and financial responsibility for the intruder for the next 18 years. So, indrid, where do you get off demanding that women put up with such things?

voevoda 1 year, 8 months ago

I see, indrid, that you have no response, and so you resort to personal insult. That is a dishonest debater's way of admitting defeat. An ungracious way of conceding, but a concession nonetheless.

Cait McKnelly 1 year, 8 months ago

Why are we arguing over "reasons"? The truth is, it's not your body and WHY anybody does anything to their own body is none of your business.

In_God_we_trust 1 year, 8 months ago

The baby is not technically part of your body. There is no connection between the baby's blood supply and the mothers. The baby gets protection and food and oxygen from the mother until birth.

voevoda 1 year, 8 months ago

In_God_we_trust, your argument is disingenuous. You haven't described an independent entity, but rather a parasite--it depends upon "protection and food and oxygen" from its host. Unless you personally are in a position to provide it with an alternative source for "protection and food and oxygen," you are not in a position to demand that someone else do so because you think she should. How would you fell, In_God_we_trust, if someone demanded that you provide "protection and food and oxygen" to an unwelcome intruder that invaded your own private space and put you at risk?

voevoda 1 year, 8 months ago

The DNA exists, WristTwister, but not the capacity for independent existence. Live actually begins before conception, WristTwister, because the ovum and the sperm are alive. They are alive and contain DNA, whether they end up joining into a zygote or being sloughed off by the body. So it is not "science" that decides that a fertilized egg constitutes a person in the legal sense, but rather it is human beings. Human beings decide this quite differently, WristTwister, and I see no reason why your interpretation should trump anybody else's.

Go ahead, WristTwister, and be absolutely positive that you are 100% right. Act on your own belief and don't have an abortion. Don't use an IUD. Volunteer to cover the cost of unwanted preganancies and to adopt into your home all the children who are born as a result. If you can't do these things, WristTwister, then you're not in any position to forbid women to terminate pregnancies.

Cait McKnelly 1 year, 8 months ago

"newly conceived human"...
That right there is the argument of the ideologue.

Leslie Swearingen 1 year, 8 months ago

Well, yes, my daughter is human and she was conceived as one. You have to realize that I did want her very much and loved her from the moment I knew she was in my womb. So, yes, that colors my attitude about this subject. It also means that I am probably not the best person to understand calling a baby a fetus and all that. But, I have come to an understanding of those who are faced with horror and I don't think they should have to go though this.

I don't want people to hate me because of my love for my daughter. I do realize that is not the truth for everyone. I have come to the conclusion that I do not want to force any woman/any parents into a decision based on me and my family. I don't want anyone to feel trapped and miserable because I was selfish enough to force my personal belief system on them.

UneasyRider 1 year, 8 months ago

As noted before, using Wiki as valid source destroys any possible credibility.

tomatogrower 1 year, 8 months ago

And ectopic abortions aren't listed here. These would be listed as miscarriages, and wouldn't come under an elective abortion. In the past, you wouldn't even have to go to an abortion clinic for this, because the hospital would just be making sure the woman's life was in danger. I'm not sure what the future will hold. I think the estimate for ectopic pregnancy is 19 in every 1,000. It isn't a lot, but it would be quiet a large number, if that united egg and sperm, which will not survive anyway, is given more rights than the woman.

UneasyRider 1 year, 8 months ago

Anyone linking to Wiki or 14 year old study in UK is too clueless to have any credibility.

UneasyRider 1 year, 8 months ago

It's a given, anyone can post anything on Wiki and a certain number of people will accept this as fact. How sad.

UneasyRider 1 year, 8 months ago

So, the fact that you quote them make them valid?

elliottaw 1 year, 8 months ago

I got an idea how about all unplanned pregnancy are just given to you. The burden can be yours to raise,feed and cloth these children. The state does t want to educate the children that are already here they should be happy when people try not to bring anymore not it.

Loretta Ybarra 1 year, 8 months ago

Cite whatever you want. A bunch of categories developed to fit your argument do not tell the personal story behind each and every woman making this decision.

Fred Whitehead Jr. 1 year, 8 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

tomatogrower 1 year, 8 months ago

"Kansas’ abortion laws have been significantly restricted after Brownback took office in January 2011 and called on legislators to create “a culture of life.” "

A culture of life for the unborn, but if you are part of the working poor and none of your jobs offer insurance, well, too bad.

tomatogrower 1 year, 8 months ago

indrid_cold, you have no idea what these women go through to make this decision. It's not easy. If you get pregnant right as you have made a decision to leave an abusive husband, but you know this will hold you back and keep you connected to the jerk forever, abortion will save your life. If you are raped, everyday a fetus is growing in you seems like more rape. If you just told your boyfriend, who told you that if you really loved him you would have sex with him, that you are pregnant, and he suddenly disappears, an abortion could be your only answer to keep away from a life on welfare. If you already have a Down's syndrome child, and you find out that your fetus is the same way, you choose an abortion to concentrate your care on the child you already have. If you already have 2 children, and you and your husband are barely keeping off welfare, and you have no insurance, then an abortion ends up being your choice. Oh, I guess you could go on welfare, but then you have to suffer the humiliation that people like indrid cold dish out to the "takers". And in Kansas, you still wouldn't get Medicare, because you are working poor, not jobless poor.

jjt 1 year, 8 months ago

I have posted a couple of comments today on this thread and now they are not there any more what is going on. They were in no way rude or offensive.?

Leslie Swearingen 1 year, 8 months ago

Seems to me that there are maybe three people going back and forth on this. No one is going to convince the others of anything. Everything that could be said about this subject has been said a million times squared to infinity.

Stick a fork in it. It's done.

jafs 1 year, 8 months ago

If the statistics posted above are right, then more than half of the women seeking abortions have been using birth control.

That's a rather large number, I'd say. They either need some more effective birth control, or they need to use it correctly if they're failing to do that.

I know nothing's 100% effective, but many methods should be more effective than that, shouldn't they?

And, before people get upset with me, I think men should be responsible as well as women, and use effective birth control as well, if they don't want children.

Loretta Ybarra 1 year, 8 months ago

It appears Ingrid deleted her account, so if you responded to her threads, your comments may have been deleted as well.

Cait McKnelly 1 year, 8 months ago

One in three women in this country have had an abortion. Let that sink in. ONE THIRD of the women in this country at some point in their life have had an abortion.
Let's do what I like to call a "reality check".
Go to the grocery store and start counting women. Anything above 14 years old is fair game. Count them all; the 35 year old check out clerk, the 25 year old baker, the 70 year old woman tootling through the store on an electric cart, the college girl walking the aisle with earbuds in her ears to her I-phone. Look at them. Seriously LOOK at them. Statistics say that at least one of them has had an abortion. Yes, even the 70 year old could have had one 35 years ago. You don't know WHICH one, but it's almost a given that one of them has.
Here's an even bigger "reality check".
The next time you have any kind of extended family gathering; an annual reunion picnic in the summer, a Christmas dinner, whatever. count the women in your family. Include them ALL. Sisters, aunts, nieces, cousins and yes even your own mother or grandmother. If you're an average size family there will probably be somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 or six women wandering through the living room to the kitchen or heading to the portapotties by the ball field. Statistics say that at least one of them (and possibly two) has had an abortion.
You may not know about it (and given some of the attitudes of people on this board there might be a GOOD reason for you not knowing) but the truth is there.
Just remember this the next time you go to a KU game or a concert at the Lied. You'll either drive yourself insane or realize that, legal or not, it's part of the landscape of being a woman.

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