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Archive for Monday, November 19, 2012

Kansas conceal carry holders commit few gun crimes

November 19, 2012

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— Few Kansans who hold a concealed-carry gun permit have been charged with a firearm-related crime, statistics show.

Of the 51,078 permits issued in Kansas since the law took effect in 2007, just 44 permit holders were charged with a crime committed while using a firearm, according to records from the Kansas attorney general's office.

The Wichita Eagle reported that works out to one charge for every 1,161 permit holders, or 0.09 percent.

For those 44 permit holders charged, 17 had their licenses revoked because they were convicted of a crime that disqualifies them from having a permit.

Supporters of concealed-carry permits contend license holders are more law-abiding than the general population because they've undergone background checks by the state, said Patricia Stoneking, president of the Kansas State Rifle Association, the National Rifle Association's state affiliate.

Gun rights supporters also contend the concealed weapons serve as a deterrent to crime.

"The main reason people get a license is because this is a broken world, and we don't want to be defenseless," said Dirk Sanders, a state-certified concealed-carry instructor from Rose Hill.

But Michael Birzer, criminal justice professor and director of the school of community affairs at Wichita State University, said no empirical studies back up claims that the permits deter crime.

"It's hogwash," said Birzer, who spent nearly two decades with the Sedgwick County Sheriff's Office.

At the D&M Barber Shop in Derby a sign welcomes concealed-carry permit holders. Another sign includes a message in red lettering that reads, "Criminals Beware!"

"Sure, it helps deter crime," said Vu Nguyen, owner of the shop. "Every day people walk by, tap the sign and give it a thumbs-up. We have a lot of cops come in here. We don't want bad guys here."

Derby Police Chief Robert Lee, one of Nguyen's customers, doubted the sign would make someone think twice about holding up the shop.

"It may discourage some of the amateurs," he said, "but we have banks robbed with guards inside. I've worked cases where we've had gun shops robbed where everyone inside has guns."

While Kansas has since issued a little over 51,000 permits, 48,200 people hold one now, according to the attorney general's office. Conviction of a felony while using a firearm brings a lifetime revocation. Aggravated battery is the leading cause for revocation in Kansas.

Some Kansans have their licenses revoked because they move out of state. Others have not renewed their licenses. A drunken driving conviction draws a one-year revocation. Conviction of a felony where a firearm was not used will bring a revocation of five to 10 years.

Interest in obtaining a permit has spiked recently, particularly among women.

Overall the number of Kansans applying for a concealed-carry license has gone up 24 percent over the previous year. More than 12,400 Kansans applied between July 2011 and June 2012.

Among women, the number was up 57 percent with nearly 2,500 applications during that time.

Comments

andrew55 1 year, 4 months ago

I sought and obtained permission from the Government to "legally" bear arms. I am a law-abiding citizen. I am not a threat to another law-abiding citizen? "Go ahead...make my day".

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headdoctor 1 year, 4 months ago

The part of the CC license that has always bothered me is item #10, #11, and #12 of the requirements. There are protection orders that let some slide by that rule just because the way it is worded. Mental stability or illness exists many times where the information has not been run through a court system or treatment ordered by a court. I know a license or lack thereof isn't going to keep an unstable person from having access to a gun. I just have a problem with the unstable ones having access to them with the blessing of a CC license.

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yourworstnightmare 1 year, 4 months ago

Looks like the licensing, permitting and training process as part of CC has worked.

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Charlie Bannister 1 year, 4 months ago

Guns......When seconds count and the police are only minutes away.

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FlintlockRifle 1 year, 5 months ago

Fred oh boy, good point here, I also have a CC permit, don't think a dealer has to call your info. in when you by a gun just copys down your CC numbers same as your drivers license numbers??? Guess I better go and buy a new firearm and find out, huh.

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beatrice 1 year, 5 months ago

fred: "beatrice, my point was that if requiring ID has no value then why require it in other situations.

So, if you're against requiring an ID for voting because it is a right then are you also against requiring an ID when one exercises their 2nd amendment right? I am guessing no, but if my assumption is correct then isn't that a contradiction?"

I did not say IDs have no value. IDs are required when registering to vote, just as an ID is required to purchase a gun, and I agree with the use of an ID in both instances. However, I don't believe that once registered one should have to show an ID every time they vote, just as I don't believe every person should have to show their ID to an official in order to go to the range to shoot. Someone can't vote if their license is expired, so should the same person have their right to a firearm stripped if their license in expired? I don't believe so, and I don't see the contradiction in my point of view.

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jayhawklawrence 1 year, 5 months ago

There are very few gun accidents as a percentage of the population. This is an issue that is already addressed by the gun owning community far better than any government or politician.

The reason that we have a strong NRA is because we found that we needed protection from anti-gun interest groups who want to restrict the rights of law abiding American citizens out of an irrational fear of guns.

The problems we get into is that once these people have any leverage at all to pass gun laws they take advantage of that opportunity to try to achieve their real agenda which is to eliminate a citizens right to bear arms.

Unfortunately, this is a fact. There is a lack of trust in government and people who have power tend to take advantage of that power.

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Brock Masters 1 year, 5 months ago

I have a serious question for those that have suggested training for anyone purchasing a gun. What should the training include and how would it reduce deaths by firearms?

I can see training around the castle doctine to help people understand it and not get caught up in a bad situation, but what else?

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jayhawklawrence 1 year, 5 months ago

Some people are horrified by the idea of somebody wanting to kill an animal with a gun. Another person may find it odd that a person would fire 30,000 rounds a year at a gun range. Another person would find a gun collector to be someone that is mentally unbalanced.

You can have your own personal preference but to believe that law abiding gun owners are a threat that must be contained is wrong. And to politicize the gun issue to scare American citizens is also very wrong.

In my opinion, incompetent or corrupt politicians are the greatest threat to American citizens today and the gun controversies that keep popping up are a reminder of that fact.

1

JackMcKee 1 year, 5 months ago

CC "training" is one day. Basically a joke.

1

jayhawklawrence 1 year, 5 months ago

Gun control is an issue that the Democratic Party tries to politicize for votes. There is a lot of misinformation regarding this issue and I personally resent it.

We have two dominant political parties that are constantly looking for issues to scare people with and they are constantly arguing whether the arguments are legitimate or not.

The American people are worn down by these arguments and are looking for different kind of leadership in the future.

The problem with gun control is that gun laws are promoted by gun haters as part of a political agenda and the result is that criminals will always be well armed and law abiding citizens face the threat of jail or prison if they are simply defending themselves.

Democrats that support the gun hater movement commit political suicide in this part of the country.

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50YearResident 1 year, 5 months ago

The Title of the article itself is misleading:

Kansas conceal carry holders commit few gun crimes.

The number of "crimes" committed by permit holders are felony crimes that have no defination of being gun crimes or have referance to actual "gun crimes", only crimes that prevent retaining a concealed carry permit. Actual gun crimes are a very small percentage of the total permit holders and the 17 convictions out of 44 charged permit holders that were charged with a felony crime af any type with no referance to it being a gun related crime.

I wanted to clear that up for the people reading "gun crimes only" into this story.

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jayhawklawrence 1 year, 5 months ago

I am a concealed carry gun owner. I exercised my right as a law abiding American citizen, went through the training and am proud of the fact that I have this freedom as a law abiding American.

There are a lot of gun haters out there and I do not think these people should be able to pass laws to take away my right as an American.

I grew up around guns and learned to respect them. I think this article correctly points out that our system is working to make sure that those who acquire this license are indeed, law abiding citizens.

Based on the people I have met who are concealed carry gun owners, these are the kind of people I would want to be around in case of an emergency.

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beatrice 1 year, 5 months ago

"Supporters of concealed-carry permits contend license holders are more law-abiding than the general population because they've undergone background checks by the state, said Patricia Stoneking, president of the Kansas State Rifle Association, the National Rifle Association's state affiliate."

Good point NRA rep. Yes, we would be a safer society if ALL gun owners were required to go through background checks, become registered as a gun owner and take mandatory use and safety courses.

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50YearResident 1 year, 5 months ago

Check your reading comprehension, the article states this quote: "Of the 51,078 permits issued in Kansas since the law took effect in 2007, just 44 permit holders were charged with a crime committed while using a firearm, according to records from the Kansas attorney general's office.

The Wichita Eagle reported that works out to one charge for every 1,161 permit holders, or 0.09 percent.

For those 44 permit holders charged, 17 had their licenses revoked because they were convicted of a crime that disqualifies them from having a permit."

Now the 17 convictions were of crimes that disqualify a permit holder from having a permit. These crimes were not all (if any) gun crimes. As the article later states, most were from aggravated battery or lesser felonies, not gun crimes.

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somedude20 1 year, 5 months ago

So what this article is saying is that unlike "voter fraud," they can prove that there are cases of abuse when it comes to CC peeps....huh, since the state of K took such drastic measures to combat "voter fraud," I wonder what steps the G.O.V. will take to end these proven charges of "responsible gun owner fraud." I noticed that Kansas's Kris Kobach wants to stop peeps from taking pics of their own voter ballots due to allegations of fraud, so these PROVEN cases of CC abuse will come with consequences, no?

1

LJ Whirled 1 year, 5 months ago

44 "charged" ... I think it says only 17 "convicted". Not very clearly written, so it is hard to tell what time period is involved, or to make any reasonable comparison. It's an AP story, so it could just be "clipped", but otherwise it's not a good piece of work.

btw ... I was "charged" with driving in Tennessee with an expired license plate ... though I hadn't recently been to Tennessee, and the plate in question was stolen off my car in Florida several years prior. Convictions is a more meaningful figure than "charged".

btw, Part 2 ... I know of several instances where a person having a legal firearm in their possession prevented them from being a victim of crime. On an individual basis, it has helped people I know. Overall ... who knows? Determining why a crime was or was not committed is pretty speculative, and correlation is not altogether telling. "Hogwash" seems a bit much, though.

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hipper_than_hip 1 year, 5 months ago

Help me with the math: 2.8M Kansans, and 95 gun crimes per 100k population. 2.8M/100k = 28 x 95 = 2660 gun crimes in KS. 44 concealed carriers charged with a gun crime. 44/2660 = 1.6% of gun crimes were committed by concealed carriers. Am I doing this right?

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webmocker 1 year, 5 months ago

dinglesmith says

"...this article is biased, clearly trying to convince its readers that CC folks are more law abiding than the general population when they are not."

"Guess what, the Kansas rate ... about 95 gun crimes per 100,000 give or take decimal points. That translates to 0.095%. The article claims a 0.09% rate for CC folks...."

Thank you for your research. Seems you are correct in your assessment.

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thuja 1 year, 5 months ago

How many gun crimes are committed by people who don't own guns?

2

tomatogrower 1 year, 5 months ago

Duh. People who get concealed carry licenses are law-abiding citizens. A criminal could care less, and wouldn't bother getting a license. What a waste of time.

1

RoeDapple 1 year, 5 months ago

Yeah, yeah, yeah . . . But if the stats were going the other way the anti-gun crowd would be all over it.

0

pilch 1 year, 5 months ago

Correlation is not causality. 99% of all fellows ate bread within 24 hours of their crime. Should we ban bread? Think people ,think.

1

labmonkey 1 year, 5 months ago

Gonna finally take my class in December...

0

tange 1 year, 5 months ago

I conceal-carry my facts, and I don't Cc: 'em.

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dinglesmith 1 year, 5 months ago

This is a silly article. It says that CC folks commit few gun crimes. Then it tells us the percentage of CC folks who commit gun crimes. So far, so good. What it fails to tell us is the percentage of folks who are not CC folks who commit gun crimes. I have no idea what that percentage is - it may be way higher or way lower or the same as CC folks. However, without that number for comparison this article is utterly pointless.

5

Crazy_Larry 1 year, 5 months ago

Crime rates in Kansas have dropped every year since 2006...the year the Kansas Legislature passed the Personal and Family Protection Act. Quite the coincidence, eh Mr. Birzer?

2

Inquiringmind393 1 year, 5 months ago

But Michael Birzer, criminal justice professor and director of the school of community affairs at Wichita State University, said no empirical studies back up claims that the permits deter crime.

"It's hogwash," said Birzer

Well, I am convinced. Obviously the law must be repealed!

2

geekin_topekan 1 year, 5 months ago

So, obviously CCrs are a greater threat to America than ineligible voters!

Well, I'll be dang-derned.

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