Archive for Wednesday, May 9, 2012

Obama announces support for gay marriage

May 9, 2012, 2:07 p.m. Updated May 10, 2012, 12:19 a.m.

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— On the fence no longer, President Barack Obama declared his unequivocal support for gay marriage on Wednesday, a historic announcement that gave the polarizing social issue a more prominent role in the 2012 race for the White House.

The announcement was the first by a sitting president, and Republican challenger Mitt Romney swiftly disagreed with it. “I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman,” he said while campaigning in Oklahoma.

Gay rights advocates cheered Obama’s declaration, which they had long urged him to make. Beyond the words, one man who married his gay partner in Washington, D.C., was stirred to send a $25 contribution to the president’s campaign. “Making a contribution is the best way to say thank you,” said Stuart Kopperman.

A personal position

Obama revealed his decision after a series of events that made clear the political ground was shifting. He once opposed gay marriage but more recently had said his views were “evolving.”

In an interview with ABC in which he blended the personal and the presidential, Obama said “it wouldn’t dawn” on his daughters, Sasha and Malia, that some of their friends’ parents would be treated differently than others. He said he also thought of aides “who are in incredibly committed monogamous same-sex relationships who are raising kids together.”

Obama added that he thought about “those soldiers or airmen or Marines or sailors who are out there fighting on my behalf, and yet feel constrained even though now that ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ is gone because they’re not able to commit themselves in a marriage.”

The president said he was taking a personal position. Aides said the president’s shift would have no impact on current policies and he continues to believe that marriage is an issue best decided by states.

“I have hesitated on gay marriage in part because I thought that civil unions would be sufficient,” Obama said in the interview. He added, “I was sensitive to the fact that for a lot of people the word ‘marriage’ was something that evokes very powerful traditions, religious beliefs and so forth.”

Now, he said, “it is important for me personally to go ahead and affirm that same-sex couples should be able to get married.”

He spoke on the heels of a pair of events that underscored the sensitivity of an issue that has long divided the nation.

Vice President Joe Biden said in an interview on Sunday that he is completely comfortable with gays marrying, a pronouncement that instantly raised the profile of the issue. White House aides insisted the vice president hadn’t said anything particularly newsworthy, but gay rights groups cited Biden’s comments in urging the president to announce his support.

On Tuesday, voters in North Carolina — a potential battleground in the fall election — approved an amendment to the state constitution affirming that marriage may only be a union of a man and a woman.

Additionally, several of the president’s biggest financial backers are gay, and some have prodded him publicly to declare his support for same-sex marriage.

Senior administration officials said Obama came to the conclusion that gay couples should have the right to legally marry earlier this year and had planned to make his views known publicly before the Democratic National Convention in early September. They conceded that Biden’s comments accelerated the timeline, but said the vice president’s remarks were impromptu and not part of a coordinated effort to soften the ground for a shift by the president. They spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss internal White House deliberations.

As recently as eight years ago, conservatives in several states maneuvered successfully to place questions relating to gay marriage on the election day ballot as a way of boosting turnout for President George W. Bush’s re-election.

Now, nationwide polling suggests increasing acceptance of gay marriage. In a national survey released earlier this month, Gallup reported 50 percent of those polled said it should be legal, and 48 percent were opposed. Democrats favored by a margin of roughly 2-1, while Republicans opposed it by an even bigger margin. Among independents, 57 percent expressed support, and 40 percent were opposed.

Political fallout

Whatever the polls, the political crosscurrents are tricky, and administration officials conceded as much.

Some top aides argued that gay marriage is toxic at the ballot box in competitive states like North Carolina and said the vote there this week shows that opposition to the issue is a rallying point for Republicans.

Shifting his emphasis, even briefly, could open Obama up to Republican criticism that he is taking his eye off the economy, voters’ No. 1 issue.

Yet some prominent gay donors have said publicly they wanted Obama to announce his support for gay marriage. Other Democratic supporters claim Obama’s decision could energize huge swaths of the party, including young people. He also could appeal to independent voters.

By day’s end Wednesday, the Obama campaign had emailed a clip of the interview and a personal statement from the president to its vast list of supporters, drawing attention to his stance.

The decision also creates an area of clear contrast between Obama and his Republican rival as he argues that he’s delivered on the change he promised four years ago.

Obama said he sometimes talks with college Republicans on his visits to campuses, and while they oppose his policies on the economy and foreign policy, “when it comes to same sex equality, or, you know, sexual orientation, that they believe in equality. They are more comfortable with it.”

Obama said first lady Michelle Obama also was involved in his decision and joins him in supporting gay marriage.

“In the end, the values that I care most deeply about and she cares most deeply about is how we treat other people,” he said.

Comments

JayhawksandHerd 3 years, 9 months ago

Thank you for doing the right thing, Mr. President.

cheerio 3 years, 9 months ago

Politics 101 a. Say whatever you can to sway the voter for your (re)election. b. Make sure to do so in an election year.

BlackVelvet 3 years, 9 months ago

Cheerio is talking about all politicians!

asixbury 3 years, 9 months ago

Way to go Obama! Finally, something I can again be proud of in this country!

asixbury 3 years, 9 months ago

I would move out of this country if I had the money. But not for reasons you speak of. I want to explore beyond this island. There's a whole 'nother world out there, with different beliefs and different cultures that I want to experience.

As to my comment, I should have been more precise: I'm proud of Obama for finally speaking out.

asixbury 3 years, 9 months ago

Does it matter which? I said I wanted to move from this island, so obviously it means either Europe, Asia, Australia, or some island in between. It would be safe to assume, then, that yes, it would cost a good chunk of money to uproot my family. I also said it was to explore, not because of the reasons you think.

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 9 months ago

I can't believe we still have 31 bass ackward states in the Union. Pitiful...

asixbury 3 years, 9 months ago

Haha...FHNC made a funny! Good job on that one!

asixbury 3 years, 9 months ago

Why do you believe that? Can you explain so I can try to understand your differing point of view?

mom_of_three 3 years, 9 months ago

what is wicked and disgusting about gay marriage? I think divorce is much more wicked and detrimental to marriage.

pace 3 years, 9 months ago

I think the fundamentalist right and the conservative right has been demonizing gays and delivering the rhetoric games against a population just like Germany did against the Jews. People need to speak up them, and we need to speak up against it now. It is ugly and harmful to this country. This country is strong enough to embrace tolerance, reject hatred. Gay marraige is not disgusting, you are just afraid. I am just sick of hearing about the gay agenda, the socialist liberal, the entitlement evil of the poor. I don't buy that crud and if you think Romney is for hating , it is no endorsement for decent people. We need to call it what it is. Hate. That is what sickens me, hate.

pace 3 years, 9 months ago

No, I don't hate the person, or the people, I am tired of the hate and propaganda of hate against homosexuals, I think it is wrong. I am sorry if you think, when i say I find the rhetoric of hate against gays wrong, that you automatically think what I really mean is I hate people who think differently. No didn't say that, nor do I mean that. If that is what you got from my remarks you weren't listening. But heck yes, I think it disgusting to preach and promote hate toward a group of people. It is what Germany did , they demonized the Jewish persons, created pr campaigns and fostered hate. You want me to tolerate hate against homosexuals. I tolerate the haters, but no, I don't buy tolerating prejudice and hate toward people.

pace 3 years, 9 months ago

Crossed eyed much, NO where would anyone with a brain in there head have to contort my pretty clear message. . i was pretty clear I was tired of the hate against people, the lying PR campaigns demonizing homosexuals. If you twist it into my hating persons. You should drool when you type that.

pace 3 years, 9 months ago

I am sorry, I was a bit harsh. You were simply lying to yourself that I meant something other than what I actually said. I am sure you did not mean to project yourself as too stupid to read plain language as your argument, but mighy of simply went into some sort of delusion. If you are not against hating a group of people and actually think that pr campaigns demonizing people has merit, make that argument , rather than contorting mine.

pace 3 years, 9 months ago

If you are not against hating a group of people and actually think that pr campaigns demonizing people has merit, make that argument , rather than contorting mine.

pace 3 years, 9 months ago

If you are not against hating a group of people and actually think that pr campaigns demonizing people has merit, make that argument , rather than contorting mine.

pace 3 years, 9 months ago

After rereading your posts, I will clarify something. You assumed that when I mention two groups that had expressed hate and perpetrated anti gay propaganda, that I meant that I hated anyone that could be in that group or held everyone associated responsible for those acts of hate. I don't. I don't hold all Christians responsible for Phelps actions just because Phelps is a Christian church. Since I am aware you don't actually understand what I say very well. I did not mean only the phelps church. I know many conservative right persons that are decent and responsible people. I was very specific when I said "I think the fundamentalist right and the conservative right has been demonizing gays and delivering the rhetoric games against a population just like Germany did against the Jews." You took that to mean I blamed all fundamentalist and all of the conservative right. While I thought that was just stupid reasoning on your part, I realize you might actually think I meant something I did not say. I was talking about the hate and the anti gay propaganda. Yes while some in those groups do this, I am sure other groups of people or individuals also do it. neo nazi's etc. many. I am saying "I think the fundamentalist right and the conservative right has been demonizing gays and delivering the rhetoric games against a population just like Germany did against the Jews.". I try not to hate people but yes I find some actions wrong and harmful. No, I don't tolerate " hate for people" and public relations campaigns that the goal is to demonize people.

pace 3 years, 9 months ago

I was wrong to use the remark about drooling to indicate my opinion of the quality of the reasoning. I apologize and do know that was insulting to people with physical or medical reasons that cause drooling, it means nothing about reason or thought. I am sorry I said that.

KEITHMILES05 3 years, 9 months ago

The country is going down the toilet as the straight folks marriages end in 50% divorce. Many women end up pregnant with no man in their life. None of this has anything to do with gay people yet the straight people cry foul as they think gays are out to destroy them. LMAO.

Maddy Griffin 3 years, 9 months ago

And what better person to come "out" to than Robin Roberts.The way the GOP is alienating folks, his re-election should be a shoe-in.

obamasocks 3 years, 9 months ago

He's "for it" in what way? Does this mean he thinks it should be allowed at a federal level or its still up to states to decide?

jhawkinsf 3 years, 9 months ago

Any state may still decide not to allow same sex marriage up until the time courts rule those laws discriminatory. (I think that day is coming and rightfully so). However, should a state not allow gay marriage, they still must honor such unions entered into legally in other states. It's part of the "Full Faith" clause of the Constitution, the same thing that allows me to drive in any state, the same thing that makes my marriage legal in every state.

jafs 3 years, 9 months ago

Actually, the states that have banned it include some sort of language disallowing the use of the full faith and credit clause, according to a lawyer who's posted on this subject.

jhawkinsf 3 years, 9 months ago

Well, I'm no lawyer, but I don't see how a state can pass a law that disallows some part of the U.S. Constitution. Or course, it may just be that no one has challenged such a law in the courts. BTW - I've never been convinced that the Defense of Marriage Act could survive a court challenge. I'm not sure if anyone ever tried, or how far it got if they did.

jafs 3 years, 9 months ago

Well, we'd have to get Joe to weigh in, and explain it.

I don't remember the specifics.

Complete agreement on DOMA - I kept hoping we'd get a SC case on it.

ebyrdstarr 3 years, 9 months ago

Honestly, this is just open territory. Full faith and credit was never used to make a state that outlawed interracial marriage recognize one. There's a doctrine within FFC case law that says we don't force states to enforce other states' laws if those policies are contrary to the home state's law. So there was a reason why states thought they would be safe writing an FFC exemption into their laws.

Still probably a question that will have to be addressed, really, if more and more states legalize gay marriage.

jhawkinsf 3 years, 9 months ago

Just as a side note, I recall getting my drivers license here in Kansas when I was 16 and then moved to a state that didn't allow driving until age 18. Not only did that state allow me to drive, they gave me a drivers license from that state, even though I technically didn't qualify for one according to their rules. That was a long time ago. But I think it's still legal for a person who has an unrestricted drivers license from one state to drive in another state even if by virtue of age, they wouldn't qualify for a license in the state they were driving through. I suspect the same would be true if two underage people got married in a state that allowed it and then moved into a state where you had to be older to marry. If all that's true, I don't see any legal rationale to treat same sex marriages differently.

KSManimal 3 years, 9 months ago

Doesn't matter what he thinks. The US Constitution leaves marriage laws up to individual states (10th amendment).

BUT....that doesn't mean what the anti-gay bigots think it does (that states can choose to deny marriage to select groups of people). The 14th amendment prohibits states from enacting different sets of laws for different people. ("No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.").

So....if a state allows marriage for anyone, it must allow marriage for everyone. States could choose, if they wanted to, not to legally recognize any marriages.

jafs 3 years, 9 months ago

Great!

Now let's see how it translates to policies.

Flap Doodle 3 years, 9 months ago

The Fence-Sitter in Chief stops voting "present" for once.

Fossick 3 years, 9 months ago

Not by choice. His hand was forced by the White House press corps openly laughing at his stance:

Carney tried to parry the same-sex-marriage questions, gamely at first and then testily as reporters began to laugh at his answers. He grew uncharacteristically flustered...“His views,” Carney maintained, “are crystal clear.” http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2012/05/07/gIQAOzFw8T_story.html?hpid=z10

Not that Obama changed his mind; he merely changed his public position, as he would have done in December had not Jumping Joe Biden accidentally told the truth on Sunday.

mdlund0 3 years, 9 months ago

To think that this entire thing is anything more than a political calculation is naive. Obama and Biden haven't changed their positions on anything - they've always thought this. Biden was sent to start this in an effort to control the direction of the current political discourse (Away from the economy? And toward issues of social equality? It would make sense.) and he's the perfect person to get the ball rolling because he's known to talk off the cuff and have foot-in-mouth disease. As soon as the media was in an uproar over it, it was the president's turn to take a stand. Obama couldn't bring it up out-of-the-blue because the intent of gaining control of the discourse would be too obvious. The entire thing is a calculated move, with Biden providing the set-up and Obama providing the spike.

pace 3 years, 9 months ago

lol, that is part of the lies, dismiss this guy because you can't see reality anymore. This was gutsy, calling the raid was guts, he is gutsy and smart.. I heard one of you haters deny he was in the state legislature or was a senator, some of them are so (what? addled/) they don't know he is an American. If you want to fight someone who you think of as enemy, at least look straight at the person and don't deny reality. I don't mind people who don't vote for him or hate policy, but my gosh you sound like a comic book character when you talk about him.

Bridgett Wagner 3 years, 9 months ago

That's right! Gay folks should be free to get married and be miserable just like us straight folks! Woo hoo!

Jayhawk1958 3 years, 9 months ago

No way majority of blacks vote for a white person over a black.

theoljhawk 3 years, 9 months ago

Wow! So much for ideas, morals, and stances counting in an election! I am voting strictly on color! Talk about racist!

Maddy Griffin 3 years, 9 months ago

In ten years,my grandkids will be laughing at us and wondering why this was ever an issue to begin with. Equality for all!! Much the way I laughed at my parents for bi-racial marriage ever being an issue.

irvan moore 3 years, 9 months ago

why would anybody possibly care who gets married to who (or whom if that's the proper way to say it)

verity 3 years, 9 months ago

As long as they don't force me to get married---

DillonBarnes 3 years, 9 months ago

I'm glad to hear him say this, but I don't want to overstate its significance.

It reached a point where cost of being ambivalent on the issue no longer outweighed stating this opinion (which I believe is his true opinion). It's about votes, he was trying to stay centered but it would have ended up costing him too many votes.

Cant_have_it_both_ways 3 years, 9 months ago

Biden got him in a pickle again. He did the only thing he could do which means he does not have to do anything except lie about his support for votes and campaign money.

tbaker 3 years, 9 months ago

Gutsy move in a tough election year. I would imagine if given a choice, he would have preferred to make his personal feelings known on this topic at a different time. I don’t think his foot-in-mouth VP gave him much of a choice though.

Cait McKnelly 3 years, 9 months ago

Heh. North Carolina bans gay marriage but permits cousins to marry. (According to the laws of genetics and inbreeding, it's far more dangerous for cousins to breed than even siblings.) Is anybody else hearing "Dueling Banjos" in their head?

Maddy Griffin 3 years, 9 months ago

With 6 million voters and only 20% showing up for the vote, I bet it was expected to go the other way. Too late to change it now, but I bet he just locked in the "swing" state of N.C.The lazies that didn't make it out for that vote will show up for the big one now.

jayhawkster 3 years, 9 months ago

It does seem hypocritical. They should move it to the Free State capital. Fits right in line with the headline about "vowing" and "fairness" and "economic development." A headline trifecta! Yippee! Seriously, though, they should move it to Lawrence. I bet those folks would unload a boatload of cash. http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2012/may/08/city-vows-fairness-new-council-economic-developmen/?city_local

Maddy Griffin 3 years, 9 months ago

Really? So it was the GOP who elected him in 08?

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 9 months ago

Probably would have brought alot of anti- Obama voters to the polls..

Jean Robart 3 years, 9 months ago

I wouldn't have voted for Obama under any circumstances, but this is just another nail in his electoral coffin.

jhawkinsf 3 years, 9 months ago

And I was thinking just the opposite.

asixbury 3 years, 9 months ago

I'm very sorry you have such a dark heart that you cannot see your own bigoted and discriminatory views. I would pray for you if I believed that would do anything.

asixbury 3 years, 9 months ago

No, talking to mama up above. She is the one with the darkened soul. I appreciate your comment; it brought some much needed truth to that poster.

somedude20 3 years, 9 months ago

Hopefully little Charlie does not fall in love with Brian as his mother will have no love for him anymore. How sad!

Alyosha 3 years, 9 months ago

Yep, the Founding Fathers, who implemented Federal supremacy, were all Oppressors and Tyrants. In case you forget, your side / kind of thinking lost a) the ratification vote for the Costitution and b) the Civil War.

There's a reason the Founders ditched the Articles of Confederation. They wanted the stronger Federal government.

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 9 months ago

Gay marriage is a complete abomination to American traditions and the Judeo/Christian foundation of the Republic. Any kind of immorality that is based upon sexual choices that we make should not be the basis of Special Rights.

asixbury 3 years, 9 months ago

This country was NOT founded on Judeo/Christian. It was not founded on any religion at all; that was in fact one of the main points the founding fathers made when drafting the constitution.

Claiming being gay is an abomination is EXTREMELY insulting. What happened to no name-calling? What happened to Christians not being judgmental and loving one's neighbor (as your prophet Jesus commanded)? Your comment does not sound like love to me. You don't like gay marriage? Good; no one's forcing you to participate in any way.

Also, preventing gays from marrying is discriminatory in every sense of the word. You cannot pick and choose what group of people to discriminate against; it's all wrong. Whether you agree or not should not hinder their rights. They should be equal in every way to straight citizens based on the rights they have. They do not have the right, as it is now, to marry the person they love. Imagine if the tables were turned and straight marriage was outlawed. Wouldn't you be upset then?

Kyle Chandler 3 years, 9 months ago

Hey everyone, there must be a commercial break on Fox or the Trinity Broadcasting network! time to chime in and post your new 'teachings' from the almighty Murdoch and Dark Crystal to your favorite online newspapers comments section! Yipeee

mom_of_three 3 years, 9 months ago

hhmm... special abomination to American traditions. That same "description" was once applied to mixed race marriages.

Not sure what kind of "American traditions," you refer to, but the one I like says "all men are created equal." 'Bout time we uphold that one.

somedude20 3 years, 9 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

Alyosha 3 years, 9 months ago

You're simply wrong, and unless you are God, you have no credible business claiming what is or isn't an abomination. Denying fellow citizens who are gay the same rights everyone else has, like we used to do with women and African Americans, is an abomination to my mind.

Gay people want the same rights straight people have, no more no less.

You want to deny fellow citizens the same rights you have? That's an abomination.

jafs 3 years, 9 months ago

What if I think it's immoral for Christians to marry?

Or to marry outside their religion?

Or to have kids?

Or to have sex at all?

Etc.

Cait McKnelly 3 years, 9 months ago

The very fact that you use the word "abomination" makes me discount your entire statement. So, Dr. Laura, are you saying it's ok for me to stone my neighbors because they wear polyester/cotton blends?

BeeBee3 3 years, 9 months ago

LIKE! :) You wanna cling to the bible? Then cling to EVERY passage and quit picking and choosing. Better get ready to stone women to death if they have premarital sex and reintroduce slavery.

Kyle Chandler 3 years, 9 months ago

Hit the fields Johnny, luckily your AMERICAN rights are still somewhat protected and you can do almost whatever you want with your 'religion'. Maybe Iran is more your style, consider moving?

DillonBarnes 3 years, 9 months ago

Why does everyone have to base their life on YOUR moral compass.

MarcoPogo 3 years, 9 months ago

So the outcome of another person's judgment would really be "nunya", correct?

somedude20 3 years, 9 months ago

"god" is only something that fools believe. wear your shoe!

kansanjayhawk 3 years, 9 months ago

The bible says the "fool" has said in his heart there is no God.

mom_of_three 3 years, 9 months ago

Your moral compass comes from God, so it comes from the Bible. Correct? The same Bible that says slavery is allowable, that cattle shouldn't graze together, and to burn people at the stake. So how do you decide which Biblical teachings to follow and which ones to ignore??

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 9 months ago

The same bible that says shrimp and figs are an abomination....and a woman who's raped has to marry the rapist. Frickin' idiots will believe anything.

DillonBarnes 3 years, 9 months ago

"My moral compass comes from God."

Which God is that, they all seem to have a different view of morality.

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 9 months ago

Dude, you crack me up! "Judged!" LOL! Will i get a blue ribbon? Point of fact: there is no god. How about you spend some time in reality instead of fairytale land? That would be a step in the right direction.

Alyosha 3 years, 9 months ago

You're mistaken. Your moral compass comes from what other people scared you into believing when you were a child. You would never dream up Christianity if you hadn't been taught it. Don't cram your own issues down the American people's throats!

jafs 3 years, 9 months ago

Ok.

Let's leave the judging to God, then, ok?

ksjayhawk74 3 years, 9 months ago

Just so you know, everyone. johndeere is my gay lover. He's just really shy about it.

I keep reminding him, during out post coital pillow talk that only God can judge, not man. He always agrees with me at the time, but I think that's just to keep me and the 3 other guys in our bed happy.

Oh, John... What are we doing tonight?

mom_of_three 3 years, 9 months ago

"losing our moral compass..." We weren't founded with a "moral compass."
We had to institute it based on a few religious (and wealthy) beliefs. You know how they enforced that "moral compass?" They whipped people and held them out to public scrutiny.
And yes, sodomy was one of those crimes they looked into, as well as fornication and adultery. If the person was rich enough or nice enough, they didn't care!
That same "moral compass" thought slavery was appropriate, too.
The country evolved its belief system based on what was right and its time to evolve to allow the all people created equal to finally mean something.

asixbury 3 years, 9 months ago

Your views on this issue stem from your religion, which has no place in politics.

The only issue that matters: should the government be allowed to discriminate against any classified group of citizens? No? Well, that is exactly what the government is doing by allowing one set of its citizens (heteros) marry whom they want (with a few limitations) and not another set (homo).

Watch this video; it may open your eyes to the other side of this issue. But only if you are willing to broaden your horizons. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSQQK2...

asixbury 3 years, 9 months ago

Oh, I forgot. You religious people are taught to be unthinking sheep, just following the herd. Maybe you should try thinking critically for yourself once. You may be surprised what happens!

asixbury 3 years, 9 months ago

I used to believe the dribble that we've been brainwashed in since childhood, until I did some research myself. I discovered all the inaccuracies and fallacies throughout the Bible unexplainable and ridiculous. I believe in science and the power of logic. I don't need a fairytale to live a good life. If it helps you, I'm glad, but I don't need it myself.

Whodathunk 3 years, 9 months ago

I'm confused.... do you like broads or not?

JayhawksandHerd 3 years, 9 months ago

"All of us will one day stand before God in judgement of our actions."

If that is true, you folks that so vehemently stand in judgement of others are in serious trouble. Jesus would be appalled at your hateful actions.

Cait McKnelly 3 years, 9 months ago

If Jesus ever did come back they would stone him. That's after the three days it would take for him stop puking at everything ever done "in His name".

George_Braziller 3 years, 9 months ago

Unless you're God's personal ambassador I believe the only one doing the judging here is you.


"Those that believe gay marriages are fine if the individuals love one another, are wrong and will be judged."

KSense 3 years, 9 months ago

Funny you should mention ambassador, George. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.-II Corinthians 5:20

George_Braziller 3 years, 8 months ago

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. - Matthew 7:1

I can spew bible verses as well.

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 9 months ago

That's how religions roll...They know their word of god is the correct word of god. Do Jews and Christians worship the same god? Old Testament versus New Testament...Did god make a mistake and have to rewrite the script? Perfect god? Now it's fine to east shrimp? Slavery was Okay, but god changed his mind? How can people not see through the B.S. being shoved down their throats? Inquiring minds want to know. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PobDpV...

Cait McKnelly 3 years, 9 months ago

Actually, my view is that when God created "man" it was a prototype. Creating Eve was perfecting the design.

Chris Golledge 3 years, 9 months ago

So, stepping back a moment, you are saying you favor a government based on religion.

I thought we decided against that a couple of hundred years ago.

KSense 3 years, 9 months ago

Ummm... Leviticus 18:22 & Leviticus 20:13.

asixbury 3 years, 9 months ago

You realize Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, among others, all have governments based on religion. Look where it got them. Sure, Saudi Arabia is a rich country, but no personal rights that we take for granted. I, for one, am glad our founding fathers had enough sense to stop this from ever occurring in our nation.

KSense 3 years, 9 months ago

Sure. I know exactly what you mean. The difference lies in what religion a country is based upon. I don't really want to get into all that though. The founding fathers of America may not of established a particular religion as "the one" but statements they made and letters they wrote, certainly made clear their thinking that a nation without its principles founded upon God's principles, wouldn't be, shall we say, a good thing, to say the least. I'd give you specific quotes but I don't have them with me.

asixbury 3 years, 9 months ago

You have no proof. I have read many statements from the founders and the only ones that matter are the ones in the constitution, which strictly prohibits religion's involvment in the government. What part of the statement, "separation of church and state" do you not understand? Those Christian principles were not original to Christianity, or even Judaism (although that stretches much further back in time than Christianity).

KSense 3 years, 9 months ago

Here's proof in the form of those quotes I said I didn't have with me at the time. "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports... In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens... ...And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion...reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle." -George Washington. Farewell Address, September 17, 1796 "Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establis the Principles upong with Freedom can securely stand." -John Adams, Letter of June 21, 1776, quoted in The Wall Builder Report, Summer 1993 "The only foundation for... a republic is to be laid in Religion. Without this there can be no virtue, and without virtue there can be no liberty, and liberty is the object and life of all republican governments." -Benjamin Rush, Essays, Literary, Moral and Philosophical, 1798 "...Christianity is the only true and perfect religion; and that in proportion as mankind adopt its precepts they will be wise and happy." Benjamin Rush, "A Defence of the Use of the Bible as a School Book,"1798 "Without morals, a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion...are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments." -Charles Carroll, Letter to James McHenry, November 4, 1800, a signer of the Declaration of Independence. "Religion and good morals are the only solid foundations of public liberty and happiness." -Samuel Adams, Letter to John Trumbell, October 16, 1778 "The great pillars of all government and of social life [are] virtue, morality, and religion. This is the armor...and this alone, that renders us invincible." -Patrick Henry, letter to Archibald Blair, January 8, 1799 "The Americans combine the notions of Christianity and liberty so intimately in their minds that it is impossible to make them conceive one without the other. The religious atmosphere of the country was the first thing that struck me upon my arrival in the U.S. In France, I had seen the spirits of religion and freedom almost always marching in opposite directions, in America, I found them intimately linked together and joined and reigned over the same land... Religion should therefore be considered as the first of their political institutions. From the start, politics and religion have agreed and have not since ceased to do so."-Alexis De Tocqueville, "Democracy In America"

KSense 3 years, 9 months ago

Even Benjamin Franklin who was not a Christian said, "...only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. As nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters." Letter to Messrs. The Abbes Chalut and Arnaud, April 17, 1787 "...the moral principles and precepts contained in the Scriptures ought to form the basis of all our civil constitutions and laws...All the miseries and evils which men suffer from vice, crime, ambition, injustice, oppression, slavery, and war, proceed from their despising or neglecting the precepts contained in the Bible." -Noah Webster, History of the United States, 1833 "We have no government armed in power capable of contending in human passions unbridled by moratlity and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." -John Adams, Address to the Officers of the Massachusetts Militia, 1798 "To preserve the government we must also preserve morals. Morality rest on religion; if you destroy the foundation, the superstructure must fall. When the public mind becomes vitiated and corrupt, laws are a nullity and constitutions are waste paper."-Daniel Webster. 4th of July, 1800 Oration at Hanover, N.H.

asixbury 3 years, 9 months ago

In response to your John Adams quote, he makes a good point. At that time period, having certain morals and standards work for a "Western" culture but would not work for an "Eastern" or Middle-Eastern one since they are so vastly different from one another.

Adding the clause that religion and the government should be separate completely voids any statement you have that this county is based on said religion. I am not religious and your rights do not outweigh mine. Freedom of religion and freedom from religion.

asixbury 3 years, 9 months ago

So your religion is ok to force upon the citizens, but not someone else's? Wow....your bigotry is showing!

jafs 3 years, 9 months ago

Umm...read the rest of the book, for goodness' sake.

Why do anti-gay folks fixate so much on that one thing, and ignore the vast majority of the rest of that book?

If you're going to be against things because they're discussed in Leviticus, you need to be against a lot more than homosexuality.

And, of course, it's the OT - the Jewish holy book. The NT is quite different in it's general tone and message than the OT.

So, Christians, as people who believe in, or follow Christ, should be much more interested in what Christ said and did than the OT.

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 9 months ago

Do Jews and Christians worship the same god? Old Testament versus New Testament...Did god make a mistake and have to rewrite the script? Perfect god? Now it's fine to east shrimp? Slavery was Okay, but god changed his mind?

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 9 months ago

You should take 10 minutes away from the bible and learn where your religion and god come from--the stars. Time for you to wake up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vm_wh...

pizzapete 3 years, 8 months ago

Thanks Larry that's some interesting information.

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 9 months ago

Deere John, I've been seeing another god. Please watch this short video and think about the information it presents. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PobDpV...

Sincerely,

me.

pace 3 years, 9 months ago

so you think if I don't hate homosexuals I offend god and I am immoral. I say hate isn't the plain and simple path to glory you think. You might get counseling. Usually when someone is bound up in hating others it is usually because they don't understand love.

MarcoPogo 3 years, 9 months ago

I think you forgot to paste your snippets from Romney's letter here. Don't want you to miss one...

MarcoPogo 3 years, 9 months ago

Here we're having a perfectly good conversation and you have to bring up Jimmy Buffett. -2 for you.

sho_tyme21 3 years, 9 months ago

The best thing I have heard about "Gay" marriage is this:

If you don't like "Gay" marriage don't get one

I am a right wing nut job, (as my fiance calls me, she is a leftie commie, as i call her) and I support Same Sex Marriage as I call it.

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 9 months ago

Thanks for expressing yourself. The world needs more nut jobs like you.

gsxr600 3 years, 9 months ago

If you don't like gay marriage, blame the straight people. They're the ones who keep having gay babies.

Chris Phillips 3 years, 9 months ago

Freddie and his Picketeers must be fit to be tied after this announcement...

phoggyjay 3 years, 9 months ago

This is great news! Now, if we can get him to support legalizing cannabis... most popular president ever?

Maddy Griffin 3 years, 9 months ago

+1 And look how quickly our economic problems get solved.

Pastor_Bedtime 3 years, 9 months ago

I love that this rankles the Christian supremacists on the board and in my party. Bet they haven't even heard of the Log Cabin Republicans.

rtwngr 3 years, 9 months ago

"Log" Cabin Republicans. Sounds like wishful thinking to me.

Pastor_Bedtime 3 years, 9 months ago

It's a reference to Lincoln... who liked to share his log cabin with his young male companion. In fact, Wikipedia offers: "Lincoln wrote a poem that described a marriage-like relation between two men. It is an open question whether the poem is a sign of his sex life or whether it was intended to taunt. It included the lines:

“ For Reuben and Charles have married two girls, But Billy has married a boy. The girls he had tried on every side, But none he could get to agree; All was in vain, he went home again, And since that he's married to Natty. "

kansasredlegs 3 years, 9 months ago

Election year antics. Now get back in the pasture Sheeple! Once again, a nonissue used to direct attention away from the country's problems. You know, failed financial institutions, high unemployment, infrastructure decay, wars, overbearing tax demands, government waste, etc.

No by God, we're gonna talk marriage. Unless this country gets real leaders from somewhere, heck at this point, imported, foreign leaders might actually do better, the 200+ year democratic experiment we've embraced in this country certainly won't last another 100.

Pastor_Bedtime 3 years, 9 months ago

I'd rather talk about broadening the definition of marriage than narrowing people's access to contraception.

Patricia Davis 3 years, 9 months ago

Why Pastor Bedtime, you get the lovely logic award. Unfortunately most Kansans don't like a dash of logic with their rhetoric! I find it fascinating that most hetereos get all possessive about the "idea" of marriage when they've been so bad at it. Anyway, I think today is a great day for civil rights. I'm putting out my American flag in celebration.

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 9 months ago

Yep, just like those other nonissues, illegal immigration and abortion.

Scott Tichenor 3 years, 9 months ago

OMG. Divorcing my wife and going out for gay sex tonight and a possible long-term relationship with some man... or so that religious bible thumping right thinks.

Not.

Equal rights. People want LGTB folks to die for them in battle but not willing to extend basic rights to them. Oy, yes, while we're at it, gays can also get to enjoy the ultimate life experience: divoce. LOL.

gphawk89 3 years, 9 months ago

It doesn't matter whether he's really for or against it at heart. I'm sure the administration did some careful calculations and determined he'd get more votes by appeasing the LGTB's and potentially alienating those against gay marriage than vice versa. It's all about votes, nothing more.

jafs 3 years, 9 months ago

Unfortunately, finding an honest politician with integrity and views that one agrees with is a daunting task.

The only practical question for me is whether Obama is better than the alternatives.

Alyosha 3 years, 9 months ago

You think he's pandering for votes? Pandering to whom? North Carolina shows that this will likely turn people off from Obama. So he is actually showing political courage making a stand on an issue that could lose him votes. That's called character, something your ideology apparently prevents you from appreciating.

jafs 3 years, 9 months ago

Well, he might gain some votes from some independents or left leaning folks who were upset he didn't go farther on this issue, as well as lose some.

It might be a wash.

Crazy_Larry 3 years, 9 months ago

Do you really believe the "Democans" are the only political machine that panders to the people? Do you really believe that the Republicrats are incapable lying to the people, or of falling for the same "schtick". Being flexible and evolving are not bad qualities for a man to have. When new information comes to light a person is an idiot for not considering and adjusting accordingly.

Only a "fool" believes the same thing on Thursday as they did on Tuesday (no matter what happened on Wednesday).

James Minor 3 years, 9 months ago

It is good to read that the President has taken a position on Gay Marriage. God asks us to enjoy our lives as that is one of the many giftshe has given to us. When we are able to share the love and caring with another person, is an even greater gift. No one has the right to prevent someone from sharing that gift especially when it involves their sexuality. What America and this world needs is more people sharing and caring, not those who pass judgement, hatred, and discrimination!!!!

Liberty275 3 years, 9 months ago

I'm not against allowing homosexuals to marry, but I won't help the cause until the groups currently wanting to change laws regarding marriage begin advocating or at least stating they recognize polygamy as another viable option as well. When they care about all people that want to marry and not just a subset, I'll get on board.

If we can rearrange the laws to accommodate differing sexual preferences, we should also eliminate limitations on the number of spouses in a marriage. The standard disclaimer applies, all parties must be willing and able to consent.

jafs 3 years, 9 months ago

I agree about polygamy, etc.

I just don't think it's wise to go for an "all or nothing" approach to these issues - that usually results in "nothing".

Once gay and lesbian folks can marry legally, then we can begin the discussion about other forms of marriage.

jonas_opines 3 years, 9 months ago

Cut the ability to take advantage of tax shelters by stacking marriages, and I'd be for it. Still wouldn't affect me in the slightest.

Joe Hyde 3 years, 9 months ago

The Kansas legislature and Gov. Brownback should immediately embrace (if you will permit) same-sex marriage. They spend so much mental energy and our tax dollars trying various ways to stamp out abortion. Well, in a same-sex marriage two people of the same sex can't conceive a...

Oh, never mind; this line of thinking would require them to use logic.

Scott Morgan 3 years, 9 months ago

Obama a leader or public relations salesman?

Alyosha 3 years, 9 months ago

If your point were correct he would have come out AGAINST gay marriage, since so many bigots want to deprive fellow citizens of the rights they themselves enjoy. He gains no new votes from this. Take your ideological blinders off and you might be able to see reality.

Jason Bowers-Chaika 3 years, 9 months ago

It will be a fine day when marriage equality is finally settled and available to all. Then the churches can get back to the business of feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, and healing the sick. You know, that stuff in that book they hold up when they're screaming at gay people.

rtwngr 3 years, 9 months ago

I predict a Republican sweep in the elections this fall. The GOP will control both houses of congress as well as the White House. We're going to show you some hope and change.

Pastor_Bedtime 3 years, 9 months ago

The only way the GOP will win is to broaden, not decrease, their tent. And by focusing on "right-wing" causes instead of defeating Obama, the Republicans are proving to isolate themselves from mainstream America, which will assure an Obama victory. In other words, the more Repubicans on a state level focus on ridiculous issues like narrowing access to birth control, mandating "traditional Christian values", prayer rooms and other segments of their war on women and non-christians, the more they'll help assure a Dem victory on a national level this fall.

JayhawksandHerd 3 years, 9 months ago

"We're going to show you some hope and change."

Is that a promise, or a threat?

Pastor_Bedtime 3 years, 9 months ago

Actually the Christian supremacist movement and radical theocracy on the state level is proving to disenfranchise many fellow Republicans in this state. And active bigotry toward those outside the right wing isn't any way to attract swing votes.

Pastor_Bedtime 3 years, 9 months ago

"4 million gays to 313 million Americans" is telling. So gays aren't Americans to you?

jonas_opines 3 years, 9 months ago

Good for him, actually taking at least a verbal stand in an election year.

Not really very risky, though. Odds are very few people he could potentially alienate at this late a day with this stance were going to vote for him anyway.

jonas_opines 3 years, 9 months ago

"Marriage should be purely religious."

Why? At its heart it is a civil institution, and deals with both property and decision rights shared between individuals. Are you suggesting that the government has no business recognizing and protecting those rights for the individuals under that government, or are you saying that we should scrap marriage in this form and use alternative legal methods to create those things?

It doesn't actually give you anything tangible in a religious sense, other than recognition among your church community.

jonas_opines 3 years, 9 months ago

I do actually agree with that post. That's not really getting the government out of marriage, though, just not conferring favored status or special benefits because you happen to be married. In order for any rights conveyed by marriage to work (and without those rights there is no point in the practice at all), there has to be government support or at least recognition. The same as with all laws and rights.

But sure, I'd be perfectly willing to give up my special tax status for married filing jointly. Hell, I'd be willing to give up my individual exemptions too if they'd lower the tax base in accordance for everybody. That actually would be equality.

yourworstnightmare 3 years, 9 months ago

Gotland has a point.

Getting government out of marriage completely is one way to settle this issue.

The other is that all people should be accorded the benefits the government bestows upon married people.

I prefer the latter, but would settle for the former.

Jeremiah Jefferson 3 years, 9 months ago

It amazes me how many coments this thread has gotten on a topic that should be for the most part irrelevent when it comes to the serious issues staring this country in the face. Here we have an economy in the toilet, jobless people, homeless people, people with out health care, piss poor education, not enough funding for education, people starving, people fighting and dying in winless wars, crooked politicians, and a government that doesn't work together from the lowest local city government to the highest branches in the land. No one wants to get all up in arms and coment and complain about those isssue, but man sure seems like everyone is worried sick about weather gay people have a right to get married or not. Thats kind of alarming to me. Personally, I could care less about what gay people do long as they keep it to themselves and don't shove their lifestyle down my throat. My problem is we got more important things to worry about than weather or not gay people have the right to be married or not.

jonas_opines 3 years, 9 months ago

"No one wants to get all up in arms and comment and complain about those issues"

Yes, true. You never see long comment threads about the economy, joblessness, homeless, health care, education, wars, crooked politicians, or inefficient government.

/not ever.

mom_of_three 3 years, 9 months ago

I guess some of us are concerned that other members of our nation are not given the same rights to marry with legalities attached as the rest of us. I think civil rights are as important as other issues.

jafs 3 years, 9 months ago

"whether"

I could care less about what straight people do as long as they keep it to themselves.

How does that work for you? Are you willing to no longer be openly heterosexual, express affection to your spouse in public, etc.?

Just for the record, I'm a happily married straight guy - I just support equality for gay/lesbian/etc.

Chris Golledge 3 years, 9 months ago

“I believe that marriage is between a man and a woman,”

Apparently Mr Romney also believes it is appropriate for people with one set of personal beliefs to use the government to enforce their beliefs on others.

Pastor_Bedtime 3 years, 9 months ago

Yep. And there are plenty of folks on both sides of the aisle who find that to be distasteful. Just as they didn't like it when Michele Obama came in and closed the school bake sale, they don't want the government to impose "right-wing values" upon the nation.

jaywalker 3 years, 9 months ago

Gotta say, that was a huge, ballsy, and unexpected move by the President!

I love it!!!!!!! Enough's enough, and for once a politician said "To Hell w/ the election - it's simply the RIGHT thing to do!"

Way to go, Mr. President.!

Flap Doodle 3 years, 9 months ago

After Biden tipped the gaff, there wasn't much else he could do.

jaywalker 3 years, 9 months ago

I wondered about that, but there was a buzz going on about this for a couple weeks now. I heard O'Reilly talking about it before Biden spoke up, and he initially guessed that the President was going to do this but then one of his guests disagreed he believed it would cost the President some of the black vote. O'Reilly thought that a good point.

I'm pleasantly surprised no matter the reason.

BeeBee3 3 years, 9 months ago

Do you remember the problems during the previous administration? Homelessness.. health care..an economy in struggle because of a dragging war.. etc. The issue of EQUALITY for EVERYONE wasn't talked about then because that administration didn't give a crap. (Republicans: We love you in the womb, but once you are born- screw you!) Now we have an administration who DOES give a crap. And, frankly, that is exciting. Let me guess... you are a white male? The beauty of this country is when we give the MINORITY a voice for once. I am gay and a woman and that is two strikes against me (not in my eyes, though). And by the way- how's the "weather"? Liked your "coments" and "could care less" suggests that you care. So, good! Apparently you were a victim of that "piss poor education". I love that I am "shoving my lifestyle down your throat" by wanting the same rights as everyone else. If that is the case.. guess what? I will not quit "shoving" until I wed my girlfriend.

BeeBee3 3 years, 9 months ago

The above post is in response to "catfishturkeyhunter."

Jeremiah Jefferson 3 years, 9 months ago

Hey long as you get your right to get married. Thats all that matters and should matter in this country right? Never mind all the affore mentioned issues that are plauging our country year in and year out. Just as long as you get your right to get married. Never mind the thousands of wives and kids who lost their husbands and fathers to wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that can't be won. Never mind closing schools and slashing much needed education funding. Nevermind the hundreds of thousands of people who will not eat tonight or get the propper health care they desperatly need. Forget all the people who can't find a decent paying job who only want nothing more than to live a comfortable life. Forget the economy and every other problem we as a country face. Long as you and a select few get the right to get married, thats all that matters. I really don't care what you do. But gays having the right to get married is the least of my concerns. But hey, long as you get the right to satisfy yourself and your lifestyle, thats all that matters, screw everyone else. I think its a crying shame that this thread has drawn over 215 coments and some guy gets blown away in Iraq and gets only a handfull. Some kid is homeless and starving to death and no one cares enough to coment on that. But man the minute gay rights come up everyone has something to say then. Like I said, long as you get your right to marry. Go do what ever it is you do, I really could care less. Go get married. Divorces is ugly as hell, but I can't imagine the train wreck it causes when its two gay people. Truth be told, that is probably quite entertaining. So go do what ever you do. Just do me a favor, get on with it, do what you do and shut the hell up already. There are other people in this country that really don't care and are tired of hearing about it.

jafs 3 years, 9 months ago

Stop reading the comments if you don't like them.

Most people who are in favor of equality for gay and lesbian, etc. folks are also concerned about all of the things you mention - in fact, it's a good list of liberal concerns.

Liberals generally want people to have jobs, health care, education, etc. and they want us to end wars and bring soldiers home.

pace 3 years, 9 months ago

You seem very sensitive. Call someone and have them come over and turn off your computer. I must have a better constitution. I don't find President Obama coming out for gay marriage a distraction from the other issues, but I am tough. We need jobs, fair tax system, less corrupt corporate influence, cleaner and more active congress. I can hold all these thoughts at the same time. The Gops might not be able to take it, talking about both economic issues and social issues at the same time.
Maybe the gops should shift gears, quit making goofy social laws and go for a fairer tax system. Now that is a distracting debate topic. It would get my attention. almost anything based on numbers and reality from the gops would get my attention, but I like rare elephants.

BeeBee3 3 years, 9 months ago

The issues you mentioned are OBVIOUSLY issues. I never once said they weren't. This issue relates to MANY you listed above. Health Care problems.. imagine you are denied the right to visit your wife on her death bed because you aren't acknowledged a spouse by law. Imagine you can't cover that same spouse on your insurance for the same reason. You mentioned homeless/starving youth.. did you know that 20-40 percent of homeless youth identify as gay/lesbian? Do you know why that is? Because of intolerant/homophobic parents who kick them out when the find out or suspect their child is gay. Do you know how many of those kids commit suicide? Some do so before ever trying to come out because they "know" they'd be rejected in this world so they refrain to killing themselves. I call that pretty damn tragic, too. You mention dead hero soldiers in Iraq and Afganistan. Then there are the soldiers lucky enough to return home and greet their spouses in front of everyone and embrace them. Not the gay/lesbian soldiers. They weren't allowed because they'd get kicked out of the services.(But thanks to Obama and the DADT repeal this is no longer an issue). I don't find this thread a crying shame at all.. I find it a sign of hope that people care. Plus, a large percentage of this thread consists of my fellow sane folk defending the idea of civil rights for all. It is an effort to not repeat history. If we ignore bigotry and homophobia.. it gets bigger and out of hand. Remember separate bathrooms and restaurants etc for African American people? How absurd does that look to us now? (or I HOPE it does to you). Separate isn't equal. So, I won't go "do what I do and shut the hell up already." I never will. You keep ignoring this fight.... and being "tired of hearing about it." That's fine. You have that right. Word of advice to follow through with ignoring it.. don't click on an article that has the word "gay" in it because, God forbid, you'll meet me again. :)

Jason Bowers-Chaika 3 years, 9 months ago

Should we forget about all of the brave and patriotic soldiers who left behind partners who will remain unrecognized? What about their loss? Let's just forget about their benefits.

Jobs and healthcare are important to gay people too. Should we forget that healthcare automatically available to hetero's is often not available to partners in gay relationships.

Homeless kids? How many of those kids are homeless because their family tossed them out because they came out as gay?

Gay divorce is just a hoot! Sure, laugh at others misery.

If you really want to stop hearing about it, then quit your kevetching and help the cause instead of pretending that all of those big issues don't effect gay people and that we can't fix the inequalities that exist in rights while at the same time dealing with those issues.

BeeBee3 3 years, 9 months ago

Your "Pink smoke is rising from the White House chimney" line above tells me all I need to know about your thoughts. Keep regurgitating Rush Limbaugh while the rest of the world moves out of the cave days.

jafs 3 years, 9 months ago

If you had been denied equal rights under the law for some time, and had to deal with the prejudice and discrimination gay people have to deal with, you might not think this is that funny.

BeeBee3 3 years, 9 months ago

Thx Jafs. I don't deal with even HALF of what many do. But those without a voice need one. Teenagers who are so terrified to come out because they don't want to get kicked out of their house.. or those that think suicide is the only peace they'll get.. that's who I speak for. People like RC1997 only fuel the fire of a homophobic world. Luckily, the times they are a changin' and his kind will be the minority. SOON.

BeeBee3 3 years, 9 months ago

I laugh at humor when I see it. Nothing you spew is anything but ignorant. You know what is funny? The hypocrisy that lies within the right wing. When you point a finger you have four more pointing right back at you. Put me in an "angry bitter liberal" box all you want if that buzz phrase helps you sleep at night.

yourworstnightmare 3 years, 9 months ago

Money talks. Give as much money as possible to Obama's campaign, and then give to his superpac.

Like it or not, money is what determines elections.

Give early, give often.

Flap Doodle 3 years, 9 months ago

Does this mean the Mope will start thinking about the economy and the fact that the Democrat controlled Senate hasn't passed a budget in more than 3 years?

Jayhawk1958 3 years, 9 months ago

People are going to do what they want to anyway, so why not allow them to marry?

firebird27 3 years, 9 months ago

I want to be neutral in asking this question. If gay marriage becomes legal, I assume that legally gay couples will have equal access to adopting children as to non-gays. Perhaps gays have this equality already. If not, that means the gender of a parent makes no difference when adopting. Forget the issue of pedophilia, because the authorities will prevent pedophiles in any case. But this may mean two gay men can adopt a girl or two gay women can adopt a boy with the same equality of heterosexual parents. Does a parent's gender make any difference in raising a child? Does a daughter really need a mother or does a son really need a father, and the same question can be posed in reverse, daughter/father or son/mother?

I pose this situation, because by legalizing marriage, I cannot imagin there will not be equal footing when it comes to adopting children. Just a thought.

Jimo 3 years, 9 months ago

"Does a daughter really need a mother or does a son really need a father"?

200,000 years of human evolution points to no.

BeeBee3 3 years, 9 months ago

No father in the home worked MORE THAN just fine for this kid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSQQK2...

gudpoynt 3 years, 9 months ago

Right. And by contrast, fatherless households have been a boon for the "white community".

The unwitting racist strikes again. Thanks for your input Professor Rockchalk. 1 cow pie.

gudpoynt 3 years, 9 months ago

High out-of-wedlock birth rates are a symptom of poverty and substandard education, not black skin color.

So why did you say the "black community" instead of the "poor, undereducated community"?

Substituting the adjective "black" for "poor and undereducated" is a symptom of inadvertent racism, by those who under-think the situation they are trying to describe.

gudpoynt 3 years, 9 months ago

"Calling me a racist won't change that little problem."

The point is not to get your panties in a bunch by calling you a racist. The point is to get you to see why your comments are subtly racist, however inadvertently.

For instance, imagine, for a second, that poverty rates stayed the same per capita, but were distributed equally across all races and ethnicities. This would mean that poverty rates for blacks become lower, while those for whites become higher.

Supposing this case, do you think the out-of-wedlock birth rate would drop, merely because a smaller percentage of poor people are black?

pace 3 years, 9 months ago

You bristle that people call you a racist, just because you make racist remarks. it is so unfair, you aren't a racists, you really think that way. right?

jafs 3 years, 9 months ago

The obvious difference between a single parent household, and a lesbian partnership should be obvious.

jafs 3 years, 9 months ago

It's a reasonable question.

What happens now if a single man or woman wants to adopt? Is there a preference for same gender adoption?

Personally, I think that the maturity, financial stability, intelligence and love of parents is much more important, and formative, than their gender or sexual preference.

Flap Doodle 3 years, 9 months ago

And the Democrats are holding their convention this year in a state that just voted down same sex marriage......

gudpoynt 3 years, 9 months ago

Exactly! It's the location of this year's Convention AND it has 15 electoral swing votes.

Why would Obama's advisers think is was a good idea to practically tell the entire state that, in his eyes, their democratic process just resulted in what amounts to bad policy?

gudpoynt 3 years, 9 months ago

I don't really buy that Obama made this announcement as a result of Biden.

Hasn't Biden made a whole bunch of comments that Obama and crew have distanced themselves from?

N.C. is a key swing state for Obama. So why on Earth would it be good strategy to come out the very day after they pass their "No Gay Marriage" amendment -- a whole freakin amendment mind you, not just a law -- and basically say, "I feel they made a mistake"?

Glenn Reed 3 years, 9 months ago

Seems like this is hardly something to be complaining about, unless someone's got word that the issue is going to be decided by the federal government. rather that state governments.

jafs 3 years, 9 months ago

Well, I'd prefer it be decided at the federal level, actually.

But, we may get there eventually.

yourworstnightmare 3 years, 9 months ago

Now is the time for all of the elite, rich liberals we always hear so much about to step up and give money to Obama's campaign and superpac.

Elections are all about money, whether we like it or not.

Obama is not perfect, but he is miles ahead of the alternative.

Give early, give often, rich elite liberals!

gudpoynt 3 years, 9 months ago

Being yourself is important.

Not being discriminated against because of who you are is important.

Being legally denied the right to marry the one you love, since forever, is pretty important.

Having the leader of the country publicly tell the citizens that he and his administration acknowledge that such legal denials are wrong -- something that millions of Americans have been waiting for over a generation have been waiting to hear -- yeah... that's a pretty big deal.

Yes, being gay IS important alright. Just as important as being straight.

Love how you're trying to trivialize it though, Mr. Math. It makes you look so... oh what's the word... pathetic?

booyalab 3 years, 9 months ago

Great. So make an amendment already. You know you want to.

tomatogrower 3 years, 9 months ago

I have heard that some people agree with "civil unions" for gays. Did you know that your marriage license is a civil union, the government is not a religion. When you sign the license you are entering into a contract with another person that creates a financial and familial partnership. What you do to make your marriage binding by your religion is up to you, once you get that license.

A long time ago, the church decided who was legally married and governments had nothing to do with it. But then people got upset, because their son or daughter ran off and married for love, instead of abiding by the arranged marriage, so they asked the governments to take over licensing marriages. The United States government has no right to deny two consenting adults a marriage license. If they do, it is being run by how Christianity defines marriage, thus denying the rights of people who belong to a religion that allows gay marriage. If your religion doesn't like gay marriage, make sure your pastor doesn't perform them, and that you don't allow membership of gay people. Pastors have never been forced to perform a marriage ceremony, for example, a priest would never perform a wedding mass for 2 Jewish people. And you can always be married by a judge. Your religious believes do not legally trump mine.

gudpoynt 3 years, 9 months ago

Couple of constitutional questions for anybody:

So we all know the bit about how "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." in the 1st amendment.

=== #1 Regarding the "prohibiting the free exercise thereof" === Suppose you are a gay person who adheres to a religious belief that you should refrain from intercourse until marriage, as well as refrain from all promiscuity. However, being gay, you do not believe that marriage, in the eyes of God, is restricted to only heterosexual relationships.

So, if your state has an amendment that prevents you from getting married to the one you love, and your religion is preventing you from having sex until you are married, isn't that the like the state saying that you cannot have sex unless you either go against the tenets of your religion, or go against your sexual identity? And isn't that a pretty clear obstruction to your pursuit of happiness?

=== #2 Regarding the "make no law respecting an establishment of religion" === If it can be adequately shown that "marriage is strictly between a man and a woman" refers overwhelmingly to Judeo-Christian religious texts and beliefs, then isn't the passage of an amendment that enforces that belief a law that is "respecting the of [Judeo-Christian] religion"?

asixbury 3 years, 9 months ago

Excellent point, but unfortunately lost on the religious fanatics. They simply do not care about the separation of church and state. In their minds, they are the only ones who are correct and therefore the only ones that deserve the right to make these decisions for us. They simply ignore the fact that what they are doing by infiltrating our government with their religion is completely unconstitutional. They would change the constitution to be based on their religion and only their religion if they could. It should not be surprising, though, since the history of the Christian religion is fraught with persecution of people who disagree or believe differently than they. The Catholic Church makes killers into Saints to cover up their atrocities (Joan of Arc, Saint Patrick to name a few). I am not saying all the saints are killers, but many of them were.

jafs 3 years, 9 months ago

Pursuit of happiness is why I support gay/lesbian/etc. marriage, as well as polygamy, group marriage, etc. as long as consenting adults are involved.

Yes.

And, of course, interestingly, the Bible discusses many patriarchs who had multiple wives, if we're looking to it for a model.

axisbury is right - many right wing Christians want to transform this country into a "Christian nation", in which their values are imposed on the rest of us through legislation and the government.

tbaker 3 years, 9 months ago

Both sides of this debate deserve equal respect. Marriage between a man and a woman has been the backbone of western civilization for thousands of years, and government should butt the hell out of relationships between concenting adults who are otherwise are harming no one.

yourworstnightmare 3 years, 9 months ago

Good points. I agree with the sentiment.

I am curious, however, about the comment that "Marriage between a man and a woman has been the backbone of western civilization for thousands of years"

When I studied history, it seemed to me that marriage as you describe it (between one man and one woman) came about with the rise of a middle class, really in the last 300 years or so, with examples also in ancient Rome.

The history of western civilization is rife with examples of multiple wives, marriage for procreation only and concubines and catamites for sexual pleasure, and rampant homosexual behavior. One simply need only read the old testament or histories of ancient Greece, Egypt, and Rome.

Only in recent times has marriage (for procreation) and sex for pleasure been linked. It is a relatively new thing in western civilization.

yourworstnightmare 3 years, 9 months ago

"Marriage between a man and a woman has been the backbone of western civilization for thousands of years"

Just whom is generalizing?

Of course monogamous, heterosexual marriage existed, such as among the germanic tribes and scandinavian tribes.

But, were these really "western civilizatiopn" in the same manner as Greece, Rome, Egypt, and Judea?

The civilizations that are the foundation of our modern one had very mixed and fluid ideas about marriage.

Andrew Reeves 3 years, 8 months ago

"...government should butt the hell out of relationships between concenting adults who are otherwise are harming no one." - I agree with this. One point I would make, though, is that it's hard to be the "backbone of western civilization" when the way you want to live your life (i.e. same sex marriage) is illegal. So traditional marriage had a head start.

jafs 3 years, 9 months ago

That's a clear double standard.

But, of course, both sides do that all of the time.

yourworstnightmare 3 years, 9 months ago

A double standard indeed, but let's dig deeper.

Obama gave a very reasonable, passionate, and personal account of why he changed his position.

Romney tried this with abortion, but was in my opinion unconvincing.

Romney's other flip flops just sit there like big, stinky, unjustified plastic sandals. He makes no attempt to explain his "evolving" positions.

notaubermime 3 years, 9 months ago

Are you trying to imply that Republican ideas came from monkeys? How is that less offensive to the Republican creationist wing than plastic footwear?

Jason Bowers-Chaika 3 years, 9 months ago

Christianity used to have same sex weddings in the church with full blessing of the priests. The statement that one man one women marriage is and always was the only recognized union is completely false.

Christine Anderson 3 years, 9 months ago

I know gay people who treat their significant others better than some straight ones do. So who am I to tell them they cannot marry and share their lives. I can't; I have to let God be God, and stop trying to impersonate HIm.

purplesage 3 years, 9 months ago

The man has got to go in the next election. If other egregious offenses haven't been enough, this will surely put it over the edge. If it does not, this nation deserves exactly what it chooses as leadership - as well as the consequences of that choice.

Isaiah 5:20 comes to mind: "Woe to them that call evil good and good evil; that put darkness for light and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."

This "new" position announced by VP Biden and followed by Pres. Obama leaves the whole moral fiber of America in great tension. There has never been a society which formally condoned homosexuality by extending the privileges, even in the minds of some, the sacrament of marriage to include homosexual / lesbian couples.

If there is not another reason for Catholics and Evangelicals to up thier level of acceptance of a Mormon candidate this is it. Voters of traditional moral persuasions must rally to the support of a candidate whose stance on issues of life and marriage ate the opposite are the opposite of Obama/Biden. To our African American friends, you must put moral issues ahead of race.

I hope and pray that the Obama / Biden positions undo only the Democrat party and not all of America. .

Chris Golledge 3 years, 8 months ago

Noticed some Christian faith proponents being all about 'traditional marriage'. Happened to come across other 'traditional' marriage definitions, and wondering if these people who use Christianity as an excuse for their prejudices would find these other ways to get married compatible with their beliefs.

http://www.upworthy.com/the-top-8-ways-to-be-traditionally-married-according-to-the-bible?g=3

jd 3 years, 8 months ago

Until Obama actually does something, his announcement supporting same sex marriage will have as much effect as Dick Cheney's support of it.

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