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Archive for Thursday, January 19, 2012

Attorneys for South Lawrence Trafficway supporters, opponents square off in oral arguments in Denver appeals court

Traffic travels on 31st Street between the Baker University Wetlands on the south and Haskell Indian Nations University on the north between Haskell Ave., and Louisiana St. A federal appeals judge in Denver heard oral arguments Thursday in the case regarding the South Lawrence Trafficway and whether the road should be built through the Baker Wetlands

Traffic travels on 31st Street between the Baker University Wetlands on the south and Haskell Indian Nations University on the north between Haskell Ave., and Louisiana St. A federal appeals judge in Denver heard oral arguments Thursday in the case regarding the South Lawrence Trafficway and whether the road should be built through the Baker Wetlands

January 19, 2012

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— The route for the controversial South Lawrence Trafficway never will go through this Mile High City. At least that much is sure about the project.

But what happened in Denver on Thursday likely will decide whether the SLT ever travels anywhere east of Iowa Street.

Attorneys for the federal government, the Kansas Department of Transportation and a host of groups opposed to the unfinished trafficway project squared off in the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals in downtown Denver, arguing about whether the road should be allowed through the Baker Wetlands.

The three-judge panel likely will take at least 90 days to issue a decision in the case, which produced 8,000 pages of documents.

“The SLT project needs to back up and choose a new route,” said Bob Eye, an area attorney who represents the Prairie Band Pottawatomie Nation, the Sierra Club and a host of other groups opposed to the road running through the Baker Wetlands.

Attorneys with the Kansas Department of Transportation and the Federal Highway Administration, though, don’t have a route change in mind at all. The road builders in November 2010 won a ruling in Federal District Court saying legal authority existed to build the road through the wetlands. Roadway opponents now must prove to the appeals court that Judge Kathryn Vratil erred in her ruling.

On Thursday, the three-judge panel was told the roadway opponents’ arguments fell far short of meeting that standard and had “devolved into technical arguments about methodology,” rather than whether the Baker Wetlands property would be harmed.

“This is an unusual case because the owner of the property in question (the Baker Wetlands) is a proponent of the project because they’re confident it will improve the property,” said Ellen Durkee, an attorney with the U.S. Justice Department. “The mitigation plan for the property is comprehensive, and it will improve the property.”

The nearly $20 million mitigation plan will move both Haskell Avenue and Louisiana Street farther from the current wetlands, will add about 260 acres of new wetlands to the area and will create an endowment for Baker University to care for the property, among other items.

But roadway opponents said highway officials have misrepresented the likely impact the road will have on the area and don’t understand the cultural significance of the wetlands or of the southern portion of Haskell Indian Nations University, which is adjacent to the route and includes a Medicine Wheel and other spiritual sites.

Indeed, one Haskell student came up to the acting secretary of KDOT after the hearing and asked her how she would like it if someone injected large amounts of noise into her church service.

“That’s what that area represents to us,” she said.

Noise was a major issue that the three judge-panel asked attorneys about during a session that lasted a little more than 30 minutes.

Roadway opponents argued a noise study on the project was incomplete because it did not measure the predicted noise levels of the new SLT against the existing noise levels created by 31st Street. Such a comparison is part of the guidelines for a federal noise study. In fact, roadway opponents even pointed to a specific sentence in the noise study that admitted the two noise levels weren’t compared.

The road builders acknowledged the sentence, but said it was inaccurate because data in the report showed the two levels were compared. They also countered that the state has committed to building the project with noise barriers that will not allow noise levels in the wetlands to be higher than they are today.

Roadway opponents urged the court to find that federal highway officials had not properly researched the feasibility of a route that would build the bypass south of the Wakarusa River. But federal officials said they did study such routes. They found that the route would not take as much traffic off of local streets and would not prevent as many accidents compared with a route through the wetlands. Opponents dispute both claims.

Thursday’s arguments could be the last legal step for the project, which has been debated for more than 20 years. Once the 10th Circuit rules on the matter, the U.S. Supreme Court is the only other court that could hear an appeal on the case. The Supreme Court agrees to hear only a fraction of the cases that apply for review.

If state and federal officials prevail in the lawsuit, construction could begin by late 2013. If the court rules against the wetlands route, state officials have said the project would likely face an indefinite delay.

The trafficway project is designed to connect Interstate 70 to the west of Lawrence with Kansas Highway 10 east of Lawrence. The first two lanes of the western half of the road are built, but the bypass currently ends at Iowa Street.

Neither side said it could read much into the few questions that the three-judge panel asked during Thursday’s proceedings. But Eye said there was one point that he was certain of, regardless of how the ruling comes down.

“The passion will not go away,” Eye said. “I’m sure of that. We believe we have an extremely valuable resource that could be lost forever.”

Comments

lunacydetector 2 years, 6 months ago

what about removing all city street access points to haskell? flame on. :)

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 6 months ago

"“This is an unusual case because the owner of the property in question (the Baker Wetlands) is a proponent of the project because they’re confident it will improve the property,” "

Funny how they were opposed to it until they got $8 million reasons to become a proponent.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

Excuse me - Can you tell the audience please - when did Baker University ever oppose the SLT? They had opinions about different routes but they have NEVER opposed the SLT.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 6 months ago

They were opposed to anything but a south of the river route.

"1988 Arden Booth, owner of KLWN Radio, writes a letter April 11 to Baker University President Dan Lambert containing a veiled threat that a boycott by major Baker donors will ensue if he doesn't muzzle or fire Prof. Roger Boyd, Baker Wetlands Manager who publicly advocates a South of the Wakarusa route. Boyd does change his position and supports a 31st Street route. However, in a May2, 1994, letter to the Douglas County Commission, he returns to his original position of opposing any route North of the Wakarusa River."

http://www.genuinekansas.com/history_baker_wetlands_controversy_timeline_kansas.htm

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

Your statement is as ludicrous as concluding that since Mike Caron is opposed to the SLT that Douglas County, his employer, is opposed as well. Dr. Boyd can, and does have opinions that differ from the administrators at Baker. That is one of the functions of tenure, the last I checked. Dr. Boyd was tenured in the early 80's I believe, long before this. Just because he opposed the alignments for a variety of reasons and changed his mind does not mean Baker opposed the road. The University never opposed the SLT.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 6 months ago

Clearly, Baker had no particular institutional opinion on it at the time, but those members of the faculty who had primary responsibility for it did, and they didn't want to see its destruction.

It took a lot heavy threats, arm twisting, and eventually bribes from the movers and shakers to get them to change their position.

But I'm sure you'll be able to find some way to rationalize that to fit your desire for paving Haskell's Wetlands.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

Not one crumble of concrete will fall on Haskell's Wetlands. Oh, but you probably were already aware of that weren't you?

How do you know what went on at Baker any more than I do? You clearly have a warped perspective about tenure and administrative policy versus faculty opinion. University administrators often follow their policies regardless of whether they align with faculty opinions or not!

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 6 months ago

So, as long as you get the pavement you want, and Baker gets its $8 million, any administrative/legalistic rationale will suffice, no matter how strained or convoluted or unfair it might be.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

I certainly wasn't privy to any private discussions etc. but from what I learned in class you may be misinterpreting why Dr. Boyd ever opposed the road. Apparently it was whether there would be adequate compensation for destroying wetlands, no matter what the route. He certainly did not seem to support the claims of Tribal Cultural Property which is the legal test here. And if he had supported TCP on the Baker Wetlands it would have made it very difficult to manage it as a wetlands.

But go ahead and tell you yourself whatever you need to.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 6 months ago

I can believe that. It's certainly consistent with Boyd's change of heart-- his interests were always very narrow and selfish, and could be easily satisfied with an $8 million bribe. No wonder you like the guy.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

I would guess that you say his interests were narrow and selfish because they didn't line up with your narrow and selfish views. You are only concerned about perceived issues around American Indians that are largely bogus. You could care less about the wetlands - they are only a vehicle to complain about how Indians have been treated. You also couldn't care less about true traffic issues in and around Lawrence. How are your interests any broader?

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steveguy 2 years, 6 months ago

Go ahead and build the by-pass. We have needed it for the past 10 years.

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Jeanette Kekahbah 2 years, 6 months ago

Eye works pro bono.

Prairie Band is a soveriegn nation, not a 'group'.

NO ONE is trying to 'stop' this project.

Insistance on the 32nd Street alignment is what's held up completion of the SLT. Going south of the Wakarusa River, what's the problem with that? Not a single thing. Except Baker, KDOT and the deal maker behind the scenes don't get to shuffle money to each other. YOUR money. MY money. THEIR POCKETS.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

It is way more complicated than that but don't let NEPA guidelines, 404 Permit guidelines, adequate mitigation measures, or reading the actual EIS document get in your way.

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Mike Ford 2 years, 6 months ago

actually oletimer....the tribes you fail to acknowledge are the actual oletimers.... I will not go away....they will not go away....by the way....I contacted the Kansas East Conference of the United Methodist Church who is affiliated with Baker University. Why would a church denomination go against the social justice issues of an entire race of indigenous peoples for money other than to act like the land stealing denominations who acted in concert with the US Government, the states officials and the railroad officials to steal the lands you now live on in the Kansas Nebraska Act of 1854 and the subsequent railroad land theft treaties with the Kickapoo in 1862, the Potawatomi in 1867, the Delaware in 1866, and the Osage in 1871? people with no knowledge call history an excuse because they have no history or knowledge for that matter. The Prairie Band Potawatomi have people that didn't survive Haskell Institute as it was known. They also did a side by side cost estimate study under the radar to prove the cost of south of the river was over inflated by the 32nd route proponents. Didn't know that did you. Don't know much about history...Don't know much about biology... don't know much do you???

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Armored_One 2 years, 6 months ago

"They also did a side by side cost estimate study under the radar to prove the cost of south of the river was over inflated by the 32nd route proponents."

How big of a dump truck did you need to haul this load of horse hockey into your post?

If any tribe had gone to that kind of expense, it would have been presented as evidence. I really can't see any group, casino money or not, tossing out that kind of bank and then just letting it molder on some shelf in some obscure office.

If they did such a study, then produce evidence of it.

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kujayhawk7476 2 years, 6 months ago

Spare us, please. The United Methodist Church doesn't want to get involved with your personal "social injustice" when there are more serious problems in this area and state.

Either get on board with progress or take yourself, and Haskell University somewhere else.

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Jeanette Kekahbah 2 years, 6 months ago

You're welcome to leave any time, kujayhawk7476, I'm on board for that progress.

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Mike Ford 2 years, 6 months ago

putdowns by know nothings only embolden me. keep race baiting false knowledge... your intelligence shows right through......

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

What is the difference between being "emboldened" and simple "bullheadedness". Neither one usually produces anything constructive.

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Noweigh 2 years, 6 months ago

enough is enough. Agnes the Frog was trying to stop this needed roadway way back in 1979....time to use common sense and reason. Build this now...its been held hostage for decades while the price has gone through the roof. Better late than never. As FalseHope says, build an exit ramp to a Casino and all will be good.

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Richard Heckler 2 years, 6 months ago

In 1971 the State Highway Commission recommended a bypass for Lawrence to be built south of the Wakarusa River.

In 1985 Chamber of Commerce Transportation Committee members,county commissioners,developers and other interested parties illegally met met in "secret" to discuss a Trafficway.

In most all cases property owners along the way have been paid paid super duper inflated prices way beyond market value.

Relocating existing roads = gross negligence in spending = now really how smart is this?

Blowing off existing flood control that works is irresponsible and fiscally irresponsible spending of tax dollars in the millions for replacement. Now really how smart is this?

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

"In 1971 the State Highway Commission recommended a bypass for Lawrence to be built south of the Wakarusa River."

Gov. Graves, for example, made a bunch of stupid recommendations while gov.. That does not make them right, nor does it compel us to do them anymore than what the State Highway Commission thought in 1971.

Move on Richard!

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Lawrence Morgan 2 years, 6 months ago

Right on, tuschkahoma! You have important valid points that many who are posting here don't wish to know about, or have conveniently forgotten about.

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benbahe 2 years, 6 months ago

We will PREVAIL! The road will not be built!

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Curtis Lange 2 years, 6 months ago

You will not prevail. The road will be built.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

Sorry to burst your little bubble. Completing the SLT will not "drain the swamp". If you had even read this article it says the wetland actually will increase by 260 acres. Makes you want to oppose the road doesn't it? The facts have been stated and re-stated that wetlands are not inherently mosquito infested. You would know that if you had ever visited any of the wetlands in the Wakarusa River Valley. But then you probably don't believe the factual evidence that supposes the Global Warming myth either.

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scott3460 2 years, 6 months ago

And people are all that matter, right?

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gatekeeper 2 years, 6 months ago

Take a stroll into the wetlands sometime and you'd change your mind. There aren't a bunch of mosquitos there, but you wouldn't know that because you've never spent any time watching the little fish eat the larva. You don't see the various other animals I've seen over the years while sitting and enjoying the relaxing environment. I've seen bobcats, muskrats, deer, so many breeds of ducks of hawks and various birds. It is a great place to escape to and enjoy nature.

If you want to see pot-smokers, just go to the frat houses, the student ghetto, or pretty much any bar on Mass St with a patio. They aren't at the wetlands. Nice try to pin illegal activity on the one little bit of nature Lawrence has to offer.

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Jeanette Kekahbah 2 years, 6 months ago

Congratulations for correctly noting the year.

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kujayhawk7476 2 years, 6 months ago

The "church" the one Haskell student referred to was created, so to speak, after the decision to build the SLT was made. Hardly a valid argument. Build the roadway, Lawrence. Mr. Eye, stop milking your clients for legal fees and go on to other work. Would you even have a law practice if it weren't for all these 'groups' you represent?

Lawrence is a laughing stock in Kansas for many reasons lately, this is the big one!

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Scott Morgan 2 years, 6 months ago

Lawrence is a laughing stock in Kansas for many reasons lately, this is the big one!

Yep, folks around the state do chuckle over flooded (man made) farmland essentially destroying economic growth to a city which demands so much in the way of tax money.

Take away KU and LPS 497 and the largest employer in Lawrence are Mexican restaurants. Would you like rice with your enchilada?

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

You can't seriously believe that anyone beyond 60 mi from here cares about the SLT!? Often "Man-Made" wetlands will have more human-valued functions than natural wetlands.

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gatekeeper 2 years, 6 months ago

Most of Lawrence is embarrased by the rest of KS that surrounds us. We don't care what the farm communities west of here think and certainly don't care what uptight JoCo idiots think.

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omnedon 2 years, 6 months ago

I grew up in western Kansas and we had a mix of KU and K-State supporters there, but the "stereotypes" that K-State was for hicks and KU had "Snob Hill" drove me nuts. Having lived here in Lawrence now for 16 years and happily call it home, I get frustrated that a comment like this just perpetuates the "Snob Hill" mentality. Surely this was made in jest, but if not, what a closed minded individual you are.

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Jeanette Kekahbah 2 years, 6 months ago

News flash wissmo, man made farmland out of wetland which - surprise - turned out to be an epic fail. And oh yeah what a boom town we'd be if only we had the SLT...Lawrence has sooo much economic growth potential...hahahahaha!

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Flap Doodle 2 years, 6 months ago

I hope somebody is there taking pictures when tuschie & bozo & merrill lay down in front of the bulldozers working on the SLT project.

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jonas_opines 2 years, 6 months ago

Hmmm. . . advocating death for political opponents.

Even in jest, that's very Christian of you.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

Sorry, but for once Tuschie knows what he is talking about. The attorney for Prairie Band at the time (about 5-6 years ago) hired a retired road engineer from Texas to design an SOR connection and estimate costs. His costs were comparable to the 32nd St. What Tuschie neglects to point out is that the TX engineer didn't use KS road standards and he ignored that he was crossing 1/4 mi floodway on the west and another 1/2 to 3/4 mi floodway on the east. That would have to be elevated rather than filled and that would cost a whole lot more. Those two issues nullified any savings he could come with. Bob used that in his documents anyway in the first round and the judge basically said "nice try". The point being that Bob Eye had to focus on the noise study as that is the only thing that caught Judge Vratil eye. It was correctly covered in the EIS but the opponents tried to trip up the issue by a single typo error in the text. It would be extremely irrational for the appeals court to reverse the decision based on a typo or based on the construction of the Medicine Wheel, a structure that was built during the process of designing the road.

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lunacydetector 2 years, 6 months ago

nobody, including haskell gave a rip about the wetlands until the state wanted to build a road through it. no medicine wheels, no turtle crossing signs etc were in existence. the wetlands were a place for people to party and do drugs.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 6 months ago

Wrong-- Haskell was perfectly happy with the way Baker was using the land (for educational purposes, as is required by the transference from Haskell to Baker.)

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

Factless in Lawrence again, Bozo. The land was transferred to Baker University from Dept of Health, Education, and Welfare, not from Haskell. Haskell didn't own it, did they?

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 6 months ago

When Indian lands are "surplussed" there are restrictions on use, education being one of the allowed usages. Selling them off for highway construction is not.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

According to Dr. Boyd there were restrictions during the 30 year Quit Claim deed period. But at the end of the 30 years(1998) the University received a clear title. According to University attorneys there are no longer any restrictions...we could build ourselves a casino!

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 6 months ago

That's pretty much the history of Indians in the legal system-- as long as some legal rationalization can be concocted, the Indians can be endlessly screwed.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

I don't claim to walk in their moccasins but I was under the impression that we all have an equal opportunity to be screwed by the legal system. Isn't that an extremely negative opinion of the US?

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gatekeeper 2 years, 6 months ago

Where's the proof of it being this huge crack house you speak of? Yep, there isn't any.

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jonas_opines 2 years, 6 months ago

Lunacydetector's lunacy detector is always going off. Because it's a proximity alarm, and it's always right next to him.

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Jean1183 2 years, 6 months ago

I'm hoping to see bulldozers in 90 days.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

Read the article again - it said fall 2013.

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Fred Whitehead Jr. 2 years, 6 months ago

This is the most disgusting scenerio I have ever seen. Many lawyers have made a career out of egging this project on, trying to sanctify and glorify a flooded farm field full of stank water, mosquito larvae, debris and filth as some sort of holy and sacred place. In all my 67 years, I do not believe I have ever seen such a ignorant and debauched event pursued with the vigor this legal mess has created. This road should have been built years ago and these lawyers who are prolonging this process for their own profit should have found other employment. Yeah, I know there is a recession and even lawyers are hurting, but to continue this damnable delay of a badly needed project is criminal to the most extreme dimension. I sincerely hope that cooler heads in Denver will bounce these self-serving lawyers out of the court room on their lazy butts.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 6 months ago

Your ad hominem attacks are not only anti-logical, they are inaccurate. The lawyers opposing the paving of the Haskell Wetlands are working pro bono (that means they aren't getting paid.)

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Fred Whitehead Jr. 2 years, 6 months ago

"paving of the Haskell Wetlands" Your curious habit of overstating the situation is most distressing. No one is wanting to :pave over" the dismal swamp. We are wanting to have sensiblle traffic flow for the entire community. The community is growing and no mount of phoney baloney verbage is going to prevent that, it is just that the growth needs to be done in a sensible and reasonable way. The local personalities that have drummed up this fraud of "wetlands" from a swamp that is allowed to exist in violation of city ordnances in the southern part of the city are simply ttrying to make trouble and grief for the greater community. They have been around for all my years here and continue to push their fraudulant agenda on the entire community.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 6 months ago

No one is wanting to :pave over"

In my book, ten lanes of pavement plus shoulders and noise walls is paving them over.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 6 months ago

"a swamp that is allowed to exist in violation of city ordnances "

What would you call your habit of making stuff up? Distressing, maybe?

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Fred Whitehead Jr. 2 years, 6 months ago

It is a violation of city ordnances against having standing water, which is a nusiance causing mosquitos and other pests. They cited my fish pond several years ago. Look it up before you jump off the end of the pier, bozo.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

RVJAYHAWK - what makes you the expert? Bob Eye is doing this pro bono (his assistants were most likely paid by Eye's firm). David Praeger, however was paid by the Prairie for his efforts.

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Ewok79 2 years, 6 months ago

Now maybe I have A.D.D but I read, "The route for the controversial South Lawrence Trafficway never will go through this Mile High City. At least that much is sure about the project................BLAH, BLAH, BLAH,............................“The passion will not go away,” Eye said. “I’m sure of that. We believe we have an extremely valuable resource that could be lost forever.”
Now when are they gonna start building this road already?? Please, this is getting old driving 20 mins though town just get to the highway.

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jonas_opines 2 years, 6 months ago

"this is getting old driving 20 mins though town just get to the highway."

Definitely the sign of a tragically oppressed existence.

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onceajhawkalwaysajhawk 2 years, 6 months ago

I bet if you measure the distance between the exiting fence lines on 31st, a four lane highway would fit..(Just sayin)

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Fred Whitehead Jr. 2 years, 6 months ago

It IS a four lane street from Louisiana to Iowa. Did the frogs and possums move out when that part of the road was enlarged?????????

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MuscogeeLove 2 years, 6 months ago

If only more people understood the importance and history of Haskell Indian Nations University....and how culture, education, and traditions are worth fighting for!!!

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

Yes, it is indeed unfortunate that this issue has caused such antimosities towards HINU. However, let's keep in mind that it was HINU that draw the line in the mud - move the road and pay $50-75 mill more, or we will claim that you are racist, ignorant, insensitive, etc.

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MRWETKISSES 2 years, 6 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

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gccs14r 2 years, 6 months ago

Or you could move closer to work.

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April Fleming 2 years, 6 months ago

Why should the state subsidize commuters? That part I don't get. You choose to commute (as I do), you live with the annoyance of having to drive to work.

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gatekeeper 2 years, 6 months ago

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I actually bought my house on the north side of town to make it easy for me to commute to the NW part of Shawnee and cut down my drive time. So many in W. Lawrence just want to be catered to. They should move to JoCo.

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jonas_opines 2 years, 6 months ago

It's only socialism when it's stuff that you don't want. Didn't you get the memo?

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gatekeeper 2 years, 6 months ago

Since the alignment and so many other things have changed since this was first brought to a vote so many years ago, why not vote this fall on whether the SLT should be built along the 32nd St alignment or south of the Waka. There are tons and tons of residents that didn't reside here when the first vote was done. The current residents should have a say on this. Lawrence has changed a lot and a new vote should be done to represent the current city and residents.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

Sorry, but it is a little late for a "do-over". If this was completely funded by city and/or county that may be appropriate, however, this project is being funded by fed highway programs and the state of Kansas. Thus, a local vote is inappropriate. Besides, you had an opportunity to speak up in 2002 and again in 2006. From the various opinions being expressed here and elsewhere it is still a vast majority in favor of 32nd st.

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Richard Heckler 2 years, 6 months ago

Dumb plan. Buy land for something that may never happen. Several real estate agencies own land along the way that they bought in anticipation so the rumor goes.

This smells like a taxpayer bailout.

The obsolete route plan needs to replaced with a more up to date design that will make sense for the next 50 years. This current design makes zero sense. It is all about pork barrel spending for the Lawrence real estate executives = corruption big time.

The original plan took this idea out around Lawrence,Kansas. In 1971 the state highway commission recommended a bypass(not a trafficway) for Lawrence to go south of the Wakarusa river out around the city. Which makes sense for the long term.

The local real estate industry and the Chamber of Commerce are quite reckless which make Lawrence quite and expensive community in which to reside. The City commission is elected with money from the real estate industry which has produced flooded markets in retail,housing and warehousing. Setting up business in Lawrence is quite risky = tons of turnover.

The original road plan took this idea out around Lawrence,Kansas. In 1985 the local real estate industry came up with a pork barrel boondoggle project known as the South Lawrence Trafficway.

It has been said that all along the Trafficway route the who’s who in local real estate own property. Does this mean that KDOT will be offering super duper inflated way beyond market prices for undeveloped land? It happened on the western leg. Taxpayers beware.

Why bail out the Lawrence real estate industry?

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bad_dog 2 years, 6 months ago

Merrill, while Lawrence residents that develop property or are involved in the real estate business may own certain parcels of land involved (I honestly don't know who owns the land and others have previously denied your allegation) I can assure you the Lawrence "real estate industry" doesn't own the property.

If you are so certain of this, why don't you provide the names rather than just make the statement. Let everyone judge the veracity and relevance of your statement.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

As I have replied to Merrill on the issue before (he expects us to read his crap but apparently never reads, or learns from the responses) - Of the 5 or so miles to be completed, 4 miles of it will be in the floodplain - which by most accounts is not developable. So, how will the "Lawrence Real Estate Industry" clean up on those acres.

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gccs14r 2 years, 6 months ago

It'll be worse, because you'll be on a 2-lane road. If they get a chance to build it, that's all they'll put in, then they'll say they don't have enough money to finish it. Maybe KDOT should commit to installing the other two lanes on the western leg before getting permission to start another project they won't finish.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

I thought you were opposed to putting through the Baker Wetlands....now you're promoting to make it 4 lanes to start with. Wait to Bozo see that, Boy will you be in trouble.

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gccs14r 2 years, 6 months ago

In your dreams. To the extent that I think it should be built at all, it needs to be SOTR. I don't think it's going to take much if any traffic off of 23rd, so if they really want to improve crosstown traffic, they need to elevate 23rd from Harper to Lawrence Ave with access ramps at Haskell, Louisiana, and Iowa, and have local traffic travel below. Then they can remove 31st between Haskell and Louisiana and make that part of the wetlands whole again.

If they don't want to elevate 23rd and they're convinced that people want to hurry past that stretch and keep going, they could bury four lanes from Haskell to Iowa.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

obviously you have no background in "practical engineering". This isn't a major city where real estate costs are so high as to warrant burrowing or overflying.

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gccs14r 2 years, 6 months ago

Two miles of urban bridge is almost certainly cheaper than 12 miles of four lane highway and accomplishes the goal of relieving congestion on 23rd without increasing the city's noise footprint or runoff.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

I'm no highway engineer either but it is intuitive to me that constructing a flyover down 23rd from, say Harper to Iowa would cost way more than $200 million and, let say its 25 ft in the air, it will modify the noise footprint orders of magnitude higher. Think about it - What are the differences in constructing both? Wide open area for earthmovers to lay down the road bed and then come in, line up the forms and steel, pour the concrete, paint the stripes - done. Don't you realize the increased amount of steel, concrete (it has to be several times thicker and way more steel) and the labor involved - It takes a lot more workers to build bridges that flat roads. Another thing you forgot is that completing the SLT is 5 miles, not 12. Wouldn't it be nice though?

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gccs14r 2 years, 6 months ago

The western leg is only half-done. There are at least two more bridges to build for the western leg, and there will be at least two bridges to build for the eastern leg. As for the wide open space to build, that's only after purchasing ROW (at vastly inflated prices), and some of that is going to have to be built on pilings because the ground is naturally soggy. And you should look at the proposed route that shows on google maps. It's like KDOT tried to find the most difficult and expensive and least ecologically sound route possible.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

I totally disagree with your conclusions. Again, you are grossly underestimating the nightmare of constructing a fly-over down 23rd and the enormous expense involved. But you go right ahead and tell yourself what you need to in order to justify your conspiracies.

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Mike Ford 2 years, 6 months ago

since I've seen maybe two native people on here (Patrick Freeland and myself)... I'll translate to the immigrants and their christian beliefs and views of religious superiority that fail to acknowledge indigenous practices. A long time ago there were over 750 different groups of people speaking numerous languages. Depending on where they lived prior to Columbus and the attempted erasing of indigenous history they had places they considered sacred and since they inhabited specific places for millenia they considered these some of these places to be the center of their universe and existence. Numerous tribes and nations consider places like the Black Hills or Paha Sapa or Devils Tower relevant to their religious practices and beliefs. Canyon De Chelly is such a place for the Dine people as is the Nunih Waiya for Choctaw people.

Along comes masses of selfish inconsiderate immigrants who see our religious practices as Pagan. They tried to do away with stomp dancing by the southeastern tribes....fail....they tried to do away with sundancing... fail....they try to do away with potlatches in the Northwest and Alaska...fail... Haskell was created to beat the Indian out of people....fail.....we still have our indigenous beliefs. One thing non Indians consistently omit on here is the existence of indigenous religious beliefs because that's part of the modus operandi of suppressors and deniers. I go out there and I say this... Pinki aba ish binili ma, chi hochiffo hat holitopashke, ish apelichika yat alashke, nana ish ai ahni ka yakna pakna yan a yohmi kat, aba yakni a yohmi mak on chiyuhmashke. Himak nittak ilhpak pim ai alhpesa kakon ish pi ipetashke. Mikmat nana il aheka puta ish pin kashofi kat, pishno ut nana pim aheka puta il in kashofi chatuk an ish chiyuhmachashke. Mikmat anukpulika yoka ik ia chik pim aiahno hosh amba nan-okpulo an ish pi a hlakofihinchashke: Apehlichika, mikmat nan isht aianhli, micha isht aholitopa aiena kat chimmi a bilia hoke...amen... A Presbyterian missionary, Cyrus Byington, translated the Bible and the Lords Prayer to Choctaw in the 1820's and 1830's. When the white people rounded up the Indian Children by force in the 1880's and 1890's, the children were brought to Haskell and drilled to be white people. The children went to wetlands to keep their tribal identity alive as white missionaries and government officials sought to destroy this identity. Now, americans who are willfully ignorant of history and a Methodist Private college who profitted like other denominations did at the expense of Indians in the 19th century are trying to finish the cultural genocide work of their immigrant ancestors. Sorry we're still Indians....sorry we have to teach you history....

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Jayhawk1958 2 years, 6 months ago

Not mention that God given right for white people to practice "Manafest Destiny"

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

Congratulations - you have finally written a fairly comprehensible and brief history of American Indians and the connection to HINU without including myths about burials/mass murder by guards, etc. I would assume that if Indian children were trying to "get away" they stayed up close to the campus (like where the Medicine Wheel is today) so they could return quickly or they went clear down close to the river with anticipation of escaping across the river? Would it be correct to assume that not many "hung out" where the HINU and Baker U boardwalks are today?

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

....because unlike the rest of the human species, Native Americans do not operate rationally, predictably, or sensibly? Or you just want to be contrary?

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classclown 2 years, 6 months ago

gatekeeper (anonymous) replies…

Take a stroll into the wetlands sometime and you'd change your mind. There aren't a bunch of mosquitos there, but you wouldn't know that because you've never spent any time watching the little fish eat the larva. You don't see the various other animals I've seen over the years while sitting and enjoying the relaxing environment. I've seen bobcats, muskrats, deer, so many breeds of ducks of hawks and various birds. It is a great place to escape to and enjoy nature.

=========================================

Soon you'll also be able to see cougars, roadrunners, mustangs, impalas, vipers, sables, jaguars, and many other 'animals' out there. I guess that would make the SLT a vast improvement to the marsh.

Also, instead of jet skis, I envision the use of fan boats out there. In fact maybe I could invest in a fan boat rental business for people to spend their leisure time (and money). Perhaps Lawrence could use my business to target fan boat enthusiasts to come to live and retire in Lawrence and they'll change the name of a street after me.

The SLT. Creating economic opportunities and building communities.

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sgtshaun10 2 years, 6 months ago

Why can't this just end?!? So sick of it.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

I know! I know! These people just understand the concept that it's "my way or the highway"! Oh, wait! That's the same thing!?! Well, at least its comforting to know that I am always right.

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Mike Ford 2 years, 6 months ago

idaho....look up Brantford Mohawk Residential School in Brantford, Ontario, Canada. A couple of months ago something like 200 graves were discovered in a way that suggested cover up. An accompanying website had documentation on where dump burial sites were at residential Indian schools all over Canada. The Canadians were dealing with parochial sex abuse up into the early 1980's at First Nations Boarding schools ran by churches and the Canadian government. To quote Richard Pratt who started Carlisle Indian School in 1879 my own way... "They killed a lot of Indians to save the men" . A lot of those Indians were dumped in the wetlands. If you were a government set on eradicating a race either culturally or physically...would you leave paper documentation of said actions???? I went to Brantford and Ohsweken Six Nations Reserve in 2002 and 2003. Your denial sounds a lot like theirs.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

The problem with trying to interact with you is that you have this huge chip on your shoulder and you assume that everyone is trying to prove you wrong or worse? I was trying to give you a compliment and you immediately accuse me of denial. Re-read my comment and you will see I was asking a question rather than denying or challenging anything you said.

However, in your most recent blog you have reverted to your usual blundering. As you should have learned in law school - you did attend a semester or so, correct? You continue to present statements not in evidence. Did Carlisle have mass graves? Did the school in NE have mass graves? They both have unmarked graves but no mass graves. Why would you conclude that because BMRS had what appears to be a mass grave that there is one in the wetlands? Where is the rational connection? What of the paper trail at Haskell of deaths and burials either on campus in the cemetary or being returned to the tribes? Can't there be a rational explanation? Why does there always have to be a conspiracy?

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Flap Doodle 2 years, 6 months ago

Canada and Pennsylvania are not located along the SLT.

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Mike Ford 2 years, 6 months ago

idaho....I just looked on yahoo typing in brantford residential school... this is what came up...

.Child's Remains and Other Bones Identified at Canada's Oldest ... Child's Remains and Other Bones Identified at Canada's Oldest Indian Residential School in Brantford, Ontario Salem-News.com. A Statement from the Kanien'keha': ... salem-news.com/articles/november282011/​indian-remains... - Cached

the bones found were intentionally disconnected by brute force by whomever didn't want these remains found. more than likely the same will be found here. maybe then after your project is forced to be walked away from and the potential for a lawsuit over that circumstance arises....respect and logical reasoning will trump greed, historical denial, and arrogance and maybe healing can begin....

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

Tuschie says "more than likely the same will be found here."

I would guess that your father, unlike you, had a number of Baker Faculty that he thought highly of. That was my experience as well. One of those was Dr. Boyd. Dr. Boyd is a scientist. It was my experience that he tended to rely on facts to make decisions, largely through the objective, scientific process. If there is no evidence that a particular activity or action ever happened but there is evidence of other actions happening, then Dr. Boyd would probably not waste his time ignoring what has happened and continually focus on what might happen, just because he wants it to happen. I studied at Baker under Dr. Boyd and many other logical thinkers. I tend to take their approach. There is no evidence of any student ever being intentionally (or unintentionally) killed at Haskell by administrators, faculty, or guards, let alone a mass grave. But just in case - Tushcie, please hold your breath until that mass grave is found in the Wetlands.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 6 months ago

In other words, you discount the beliefs of those at Haskell, despite having no evidence on which to base that, merely because your team at Baker wants the $8million to pave over the wetlands that should rightly be returned to Haskell.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

As a sociologist I guess you have difficulties understanding scientific reasoning. Generally, if you have two hypothesis - one supported by scientific fact and the other either is not or has very little support then the scientific process would "discount" the second hypothesis. There is no support for the hypothesis there are unmarked graves in the wetlands, let along the mass grave(s) that Tuschie is "proposing". Again, you can tell yourself what you want - but without evidence, I will continue to "discount the beliefs of those at Haskell" on this subject! And I will base this on the LACK of evidence.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 6 months ago

At best, all you know is that the one guy who made an attempt to find graves didn't. That doesn't mean there are no graves out there. That does mean that the oral history among generations of Haskell students should be so easily discounted-- unless you really don't care because caring would mean that your narrow self interest isn't satisfied.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 6 months ago

That should have read "That does NOT mean that the oral history among generations of Haskell students should be so easily discounted"

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

None of the anthropologists could fine anyone to support or even repeat those oral histories - very interesting. For me, silence tells me plenty! Either there's proof or there isn't.

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Mike Ford 2 years, 6 months ago

naw.....my father on more than one occasion has stated that he believes Ivan Boyd would roll over in his grave at this travesty. My father has stated openly that this Baker is about money. It's not the Baker with professors like Charlie Selden, John Charles Doudna, and Osage Art Professor Alice Ann Callahan. Charles Selden challenged the people of my dad's generation to open their eyes to civil rights and the travesties of Mississippi and the inequities of racism in fraternities at Baker in that time. Professor Doudna's influence caused my dad to become an existencialist. Alice Ann Callahan opened student's eyes to art and was Osage and wrote a book on the In Lon' Ska tradition of her people which I own. I wonder how an Osage professor whose ancestors roamed the lands in question would think of your actions. My father had Ivan Boyd as a scout master. Mr Boyd taught reverence for nature......not money. Ivan Boyd took his scout troops to Haskell to observe the reverence of the dancing including my dad. Where was that reverence lost? The lands and people you all are offending are real. Science has a tendence to dehumanize people and objects in the pursuit of a scientific goal. Do you consider us human and our religious beliefs worthy of respect???? your actions say no........I'm sure the Klallam people who had hundreds of ancestors desecreted put up with guilty deniers also. Just remember to apologize later and maybe Baker can have a pointless reconciliation ceremony when all they had to do is put the worship of money aside. Is it that hard to stop worshipping money???

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

As I stated earlier "I studied at Baker under Dr. Boyd and many other logical thinkers. I tend to take their approach. There is no evidence of any student ever being intentionally (or unintentionally) killed at Haskell by administrators, faculty, or guards, let alone a mass grave."

I've heard of Dr. Callahan and Dr. Doudna, and of course Dr. Ivan Boyd. I understand they were all great people. But the faculty at Baker while I was there was just as able, just as capable, just as forward thinking.

You have never once answered any of my questions which indicates to me that you do not respect my beliefs, just as you accuse me of not respecting yours. As they say in Chess "check".

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Mike Ford 2 years, 6 months ago

I don't respect people who advocate the paving of the earth and the disrespect of minority cultures and their religious beliefs. Why don't you answer for the US Army Corps of Engineers and their repeated disregards of testimony and petitions over the years? I remember hearing a Potawatomi tribal member speak of the wagon loads of their kids brought back deceased from Haskell at the turn of the century at the fairground hearings. I heard many bits of testimony like that there. When testimony is supressed one side's intended goal is reached.....need I say more...

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

I was under the impression that you and your wife both drove cars. Doesn't that require pavement - at least gravel? Or have you gone back to riding horses to avoid "whiteman's pavement". Bringing wagon loads of deceased children back to the tribes kind of speaks against your argument that there is a mass grave in the wetlands and supports what I have said. It also speaks to my belief that you clearly do not understand the law. The USACOE, FWHA, KDOT, USNPS, even EPA and SHPO all operated within the law. The fact that you do not answer my questions has nothing to do with your disrespect for anyone except yourself and more to do with the reality that you don't have the answers and you never intend to get them. You want to have the ability to speak of unsupportable myths about what you want to have transpired. Do I need to say more?

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Mike Ford 2 years, 6 months ago

I'm not Potawatomi, I'm Choctaw and Biloxi....you went out of your way to sound flippant and racist.... that's fine...when your project is stopped and the money's down the drain...that will be enough for me....oh that's right.. you have to find the money in the first place and the public doesn't want a toll road....like charlie sheen you must be winning... besides....there were Forest County Potawatomis, Prairie Band Potawatomis, and Mission Band Potawatomis at Haskell along with students from over 200 other tribal nations across this country....do you want to flippant with them the way your purchased government officials were in the EIS hearings? after all we're just Indians....no need to respect us....just steal lands, build roads, and exploit nature like a pimp with props....history is a prop right?

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

Hey, you're the one with the huge chip on your shoulder. You think everyone who disagrees with you is racist. It is you that must always be right. It is you who has always been wronged. It is you who goes out of their way to discover how you have been wronged. I ask simple questions - you have no answers - relevant or otherwise. You are a conspriatist - you think everyone is out to get you. If you ever want to win an argument, be prepared to compromise. I believe I am correct when I say that KDOT was very willing to compromise with Haskell but Haskell would not talk compromise - it was their way or no way. With compromise there is win-win. Without it you either win or lose. I think we are pretty close to the end for knowing where the road is going. The money is there, the legal decisions are almost concluded. It is still not too late for compromise but probably too late to save face.

It is not "my road". It is not "my project". I do not have a vested interest to win this case. I know Dr. Boyd and I know that wetland restoration works, I know that KDOT will not uncover graves because there will be no excavation. I know that the wetlands will be improved and expanded by the mitigation project. I know that many American Indians that have been involved in this believe this is wrong. I am sorry for that. But at the same time I don't believe that any of them have any personal knowledge about the issues and they are being used by a few radical individuals like yourself and Bozo.

The irony is that I have no more to gain or lose on this project than you do.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 6 months ago

" I believe I am correct when I say that KDOT was very willing to compromise with Haskell but Haskell would not talk compromise"

You have no notion of what "compromise" means. KDOT's (and apparently your) idea of compromise is to tell someone that you're going to hit them in the head with a two-by-four, but then offering them the "compromise" of just punching them in the nose a couple of times.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

But in reality they offered to use either oak or balsa wood and no one would choose - so it ended up being oak, right?

So what is your idea of compromise?

You probably thought that either 42nd or 38th street was a good compromise...or no road at all? It doesn't seem to bother you that either of those have a much greater ecological impact on the wetlands than either 31st or 32nd. I would think that if American Indians are really concerned about the impact on wetlands they would attempt to understand why 32nd or 31st is best. Remember - everything is interconnected. Its not just about whether someone's feelings are hurt.

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 2 years, 6 months ago

"You probably thought that either 42nd or 38th street was a good compromise...or no road at all?"

They are much closer to a compromise than cramming it smack through the middle of the existing wetlands, which is no compromise whatsoever.

Not that you're interested in compromise, as I already noted.

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Mike Ford 2 years, 6 months ago

firstly, the premise you ignore to make your arguement work is the gorilla in the room. racism is when one party disregards the cultural values and history of another and acts as if it doesn't exist and isn't relevant. you all are dead to rights guilty on that one. the "if one doesn't agree their racist" statement is typical of those people who won't acknowledge anything from a minority standpoint is modus operandi for conservatives actually. I don't agree with you because you refuse to acknowledge any indigenous viewpoint in the process of following your party line. The indigenous people know this is wrong because their ancestors were wronged by your culture and churches....something you should be more respective of but you aren't. The whole radical statement is disingenous and sounds like something Herman Cain said. Science makes it hard to put a face on the people you offend... we're people and faces....not hypothesis....please treat people as such and admit you have humanity....

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

"The indigenous people know this is wrong because their ancestors were wronged by your culture and churches"

I think this is a very profound statement and it confirms what I have been saying all along. There is no room for compromise because of principle rather than reality or truth.

I'm trying to argue the advantages of the mitigation and expanding the wetlands and all you care about is scoring some debate points. As I have suggested before - you continue to call me racism whereas in reality you are anti-environment. You want the wetlands destroyed to prove some meaningless point to Baker and the road supporters. Go figure.

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Mike Ford 2 years, 6 months ago

your mitigation nonsense has no advantages for indigenous people and that is why it's opposed. The reality is that Baker is a school affiliated with the United Methodist Church. In the 1850's this denomination played divide and conquer with the Shawnee and Wyandotte people and the end result was over 2 million acres of Shawnee and Wyandotte lands being opened to settlement which led to the settling of Lawrence and Palmyra and the establishment of Baker University in 1858, four years after the Manypenny treaty with the one of the three Shawnee tribes that ceded away 1.6 million acres of land between Johnson and Morris County, Kansas. I went to a reconciliation ceremony with the Baker History teacher that passed away recently. What you do in your mind is completely ignore the concerns of indigenous peoples and sell the mitigation like a calculated scientist without any regard for humanity. You know that my viewpoint is rooted in real history....not some scientifically cold incomplete half history in an EIS done in such a manner to meet minimum standards for EIS requirements which is why this case is in Denver. This is no win win as it was so stated by the denialists eight or nine years ago. I visited the Baker University history department today and the SLT and Baker were a small part of the discussion I had there. I've also talked to the Kansas East Conference and a social justice group they referred me to in NYC about the SLT. Maybe national embarrassment will open your eyes....probably not though....

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

What you do in your mind is completely ignore the concerns for the environment and the four-legged and winged-ones that live in the wetlands. You sell your opposition to the SLT and mitigation like a calculated social scientist without any regard for the environment and its inhabitants. You know that my viewpoint is rooted in real science and the study of "all things are connected"....not some cold social justice issue that is only concerned about people. That is only half the story and based on myths and oral history that can not be supported through observation. Anyone who is truly concerned about the impact of this road on the environment and not just a small group of protesters, would be open to the benefits of increasing the wetlands size and securing its future from development, increased traffic noise, and inability of access. It is unfortunate that your worldview is so narrowly focused on settling a grudge that you aren't able to see the opportunities that are being presented. It has been my experience that those who look at the world with optimism tend to be happier, more productive, and have a greater influence on others.

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Mike Ford 2 years, 6 months ago

your avoidance of cultural respect has it's roots in the culture of this country. In 1978, the US Government and President Carter signed into law the American Indian Religious Freedom Act which should protect a place like the Haskell Wetlands. US Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O' Connor was oblivious to this law in her ruling in the Lyng Case of 1989. You all have completely ignored the religious values of indigenous peoples from the get go. Many tribes and nations, the National Congress of American Indians and others have spoken against what you advocate. I guesscpec referring to a group as small is just another example of your disrespect. The other part of this involves the double standard you all practice. Would any other denomination have to have their history and beliefs and tradgedies at the hands of others be held to such scrutiny? no. This only happens when money is involved. Someone must worship money I guess.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

One thing is certain with your comments - everyone can anticipate that they will not answer any questions and will consistently make up stuff to support your wildly imaginative hypotheses. I have indicated that I respect and utilize the hypothesis that "all things are interconnected" and yet you claim I disrespect your beliefs like all non-believers. There are many different aspects to the history of Sec. 9 and 18. I am primarily concerned with the long-term protection of those who can not speak for themselves. I believe that both Dr. Boyds have demonstrated that concern as well. On the other hand you seem most concerned with settling a grudge, readjusting the ever-growing chip on your shoulder, and getting "your land back". And you have the nerve to accuse me of being greedy. It is difficult to be greedy when you aren't receiving anything from the end result.

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Mike Ford 2 years, 6 months ago

scientists have a need to be affirmed by their hypotheses. I guess Haskell can be your guinea pig for your scientific hypothesis. I guess $8.5 million in monies is nothing. Nothing but bribery. When is science for sale? when some people lose ethics and respect for other cultures. I don't know who that could be....do you? When I took Earth Science at JCCC about a decade ago I did a study on the mean age of mortality for the Haskell students who were actually buried. I used the glossary from the book "Boarding School Seasons" by Ojibwe author Brenda Child. It showed the ages of the deceased. The youngest was Harry WhiteWolf who was eight months old when he died at Haskell in 1884-85. He was Cheyenne and Arapaho. I bet you didn't know the US Government abducted kids that young from their culture to make white people out of them. They also grabbed Munsee and Chippewa children from the Chippewa Hills west of Ottawa. Your brockington report spoke nothing of the trauma these kids experienced being intentionally abducted by your culture to make white people out of them by any means available including neglect. The average age of mortality for the kids in the cemetery was 15.6 years of age. The remains that your road will unearth....who knows... read Boarding School Seasons, They Call it Prairie Light, and Education for Extinction.....these books pretty much refute the nonsense of the Brockington Report. Of course who reads when they know how to reach a desired result......

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

And I would guess the "Brockington nonsense" you refer to is the oral history that he was able to uncover that indicated many children who escaped from Haskell in the late 1800's went to tribes other than their own in order to hide from the U.S. Indian Agents and avoid being returned. Brockington concluded (again with the aid of the oral history that he obtained) that these escapees were probably successful at eluding recapture and thus they went missing on the Haskell rolls.

Nonsense vs. practical reasoning? Which would make more sense: hundreds escaped Haskell and avoided being recaptured or hundreds were captured and killed while escaping and buried in unmarked graves without anyone ever hearing about it? I guess it all depends on the outcome you are trying to create?

Who wants to use reason when fantasy and myth is way more exciting!?

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Mike Ford 2 years, 6 months ago

fantasy and myth goes both ways....don't make me turn a bunch of creationists loose on you.....evolution and gravity are myths??????? your peer proof is a bunch of nerds arguing postition papers in basically whose got the largest slide ruler and pen holder....real connections to the outside world....not. again.....cold and calculated.....especially in these circumstances..... listen to the people you offend. you might learn something.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

Ahhhh, but I have been listening to at least two who claim to be offended - you and Bozo. Neither of you address the questions with answers. All you do is say things like "Well if you don't believe me you're a racist". Great response! Great answer! You're latest response is a real classic - comparing creationist vs evolution with American Indian beliefs vs. Science. I guess you're saying that Am. Indian beliefs are based on non-factual myths whereas science is all based on egg-heads who use slide rulers and make up theories...and we all know gravity is fake. Keep talking, I'm certain you can get that foot in a little further.

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Mike Ford 2 years, 6 months ago

naw....I wanted to inject our creation stories to drive both churchlicans and denialists like you batty. Actually when you choose to omit other's histories and beliefs and shortsell the truth of the matter to federal officials for desired results how does that not make one a racist?

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

Bozo says "They are much closer to a compromise than cramming it smack through the middle of the existing wetlands, which is no compromise whatsoever. Not that you're interested in compromise, as I already noted."

I assume the "they" you are referring to is 42nd or 38th route rather than people at Haskell. 32nd is not "in the middle of the wetlands". Are you geographically challenged or something? There are less than 10 acres of wetlands on the north side of 31st. 32nd is hardly in the middle. 35th would geographically be in the middle. I have always been interested in a compromise - even though I have no say in it...its just that you have no concept what that means. 32nd is KDOT's preferred alignment - you nor I have anything more to say about that - what compromise means is - how can we modify the 32nd st alignment to benefit Haskell. Noise walls or berms for the medicine wheel better pedestrian access to the south side of the SLT - that is compromise not saying SOR or no road! We were beyond that discussion in 2003. Too bad you never got the message!

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Mike Ford 2 years, 6 months ago

I have a proposal.....I have in my possession a blank land request for land in Palmyra from 1854 that my grandparents acquired when they tore down the old Bearclough home on their property on 5th street in Baldwin City in 1960. Since their old home was in walking distance from the Baker campus and I lived there when I attended Baker in 1988-89 prior to my grandparent's leukemia I am going to use this blank land claim form to put in a claim on the Baker land since this form predates Baker by four years. I intend to get the land on the cheap and flip it for a profit and pr bonuses. When Baker screams outrage I'm going to ignore their religious values and be as heartless and money minded as possible. It's not as if I haven't already seen this happen. Please don't learn from historical sarcasm.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

So you have a silly, if not vivid imagination. What's your point? Makes about as much sense as any of your other literary meanderings....

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Mike Ford 2 years, 6 months ago

since you're basically either oblivious or dumb to the people you offend.... this is the equivilent of what was done with the wetlands....tribes put in land claims all of the time....you don't know much about Indian law do you? you all are doing this and you don't care.... so what's wrong with an off the wall example when dealing with oblivious people?

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

you are right - I'm oblivious to what happened 160 years ago in current Sec 18 I don't care what happened. I'm dumb about Indian Law.

But none of this has any impact on me nor does it have anything to do with Baker University, KDOT, nor 32nd St alignment of SLT.

What I do know is that if Baker University hadn't received the land from Health, Education, and Welfare 40 some years ago it wouldn't be a wetlands today - but you don't care about that do you...except you would have to be complaining about something else.

I know you don't answer questions, but let me try again - How does it feel to know that you are the only person that knows the truth about all the wrongs ever done to the American Indian and you can''t get anyone to listen?

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Mike Ford 2 years, 6 months ago

I'm going to a pow wow right now...and to use a quote from a Russell Means book....I'm going where white men fear to tread. Why don't you go outside your isolated cultureless bubble and have the courage to face the people you offend on here. Or....you could go the Roger Boyd route and dress your scouts up like Indians. Why don't you go to Haskell instead of throwing offensive stones on here the way you do.... I go to Baker all the time....I talk to professors and librarians and students. I speak to spineless people in positions of power all the time. They are afraid to speak against one methodist institution. The late Baker historian Brenda Day once commended me for my courage to speak out against the actions of one methodist institution. I guess she was silenced by this institution in question because she worked for them. The reason for the uphill battle for us in this fight is the power of money. Money silences truth. Money makes people fall in the line of denial as you do. Iskulli anumpuli... (Money talks). Roger Boyd said in a Baker Orange article that he was happy was okay with selling out. The same article where he stated that our religious views had to deal with beer cans. I cut and pasted the Baker Orange article on here a year or so ago where these statements were made. It's not that we're not heard...it's just that you listen to money talking and not to reality.

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IdahoWinds 2 years, 6 months ago

What I learned in debate in HS and college is that if you get to name calling (racist) and character assassination it is an indication that you have run out of points to debate – you’re shooting blanks and have lost the debate. Hmmmm?

It is clear that if the SLT is completed on 32nd st that you will have not been able to get beyond your little grudge match. You will not be able to step back and contemplate how this might have gone differently. You will only chalk it up to money and whiteman’s arrogance.

If somehow the court does decide against the SLT you will still have lost. The SLT will never be built south of the river. 31st st will eventually become widened within the existing ROW without any noise mitigation and the access to the north gate will be removed. Is that what you hope to gain or is it simply a statement that “you finally won one”! How many people will end up celebrating with you? You will probably have been successful at making more white people hate you than there are opponents because you weren’t able to compromise. You need to be careful for what you wish for…you may actually get it. In this case I don’t think it is really what you want as your legacy…unless revengeful arrogance is what you are looking for?

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Mike Ford 2 years, 5 months ago

31st is on BIA land....remember where you all created the fictional 32nd street divide and conquer route dictated with money.....what happens if actual Indians instead of the white officials who facilitated the original land theft 50 something years ago say no to further right of way expansion? you won't find any sellouts to help your cause this time. Remember the pulling up 31st option....I didn't think so....

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