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Archive for Wednesday, February 8, 2012

Concealed carry on campuses approved by committee

February 8, 2012

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— A legislative committee approved a bill Wednesday that would allow concealed carry of handguns on college campuses and public buildings.

House Bill 2353 is now headed to the full House for consideration with a recommendation for approval from the House Federal and State Affairs Committee.

State Rep. Forrest Knox, R-Altoona, said the measure would increase safety.

“As concealed carry has been adopted in state after state, experience across the nation has made clear that concealed carry not only benefits the individual, it benefits the society as a whole,” Knox said. “Crime decreases.”

Under Knox’s bill, people who are licensed to carry a concealed gun would be allowed to bring a weapon into a state or city facility unless the building had adequate security measures, such as electronic screening equipment and guards, to ensure that no weapons could be brought in.

But representatives of colleges, cities and counties and other groups have decried the legislation, saying it would be cost prohibitive to have security systems at all entrances.

That means concealed carry would have to be allowed, they said.

Andy Tompkins, president and chief executive officer of the Kansas Board of Regents, said allowing weapons on campus would increase the risk of violence.

Having more firearms on campus would complicate the job of campus police departments, he said.

Comments

08Champs 2 years, 9 months ago

Crazy, stupid idea - this is not what the founding fathers had in mind!

Bob_Keeshan 2 years, 9 months ago

Now now, just because weapons were prohibited during the first and second Continental Congress, the Constitutional Convention, and in legislative chambers when the Bill of Rights was drafted doesn't mean the founding fathers would oppose this idea.

They clearly had metal detectors at all entrances.

TopJayhawk 2 years, 9 months ago

Guns were illegal? Huh? the citizens were (and are) the militia.
People had to hunt for food. Or did they just throw spitwads at the game. Maybe they ran down to HI-Vee? Everyone had guns then, What kind of revisionism are you trying for?

thebigspoon 2 years, 9 months ago

Try reading the post, and then you'll understand what was said.

dstnku34 2 years, 9 months ago

I'm as much a fan of gun ownership as anyone. I enjoy hunting and I enjoy sport shooting. I have also spent 10 years at the University of Kansas earning a couple degrees and teaching, and I have never once seen any deer or pheasant in Wescoe Hall. I have no doubt that those who conceal and carry are responsible citizens. I also understand that no guns can be fired where none exist. I think a gun for protection of the home is a good idea, but I don't feel that anarchy has yet reached the level where I need to be packing when I go to Taco Bell....or SCHOOL.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

Do you believe you're more likely to be attacked at home or out in the streets?

gsxr600 2 years, 9 months ago

Increase the risk of violence? Andy Tompkins clearly underestimates conceal carry holders. They're a respectful, lawful, and responsible bunch.

chootspa 2 years, 9 months ago

They're also easily distinguished at a glance from people who don't have CC permits, especially during shootouts.

Hooligan_016 2 years, 9 months ago

"As concealed carry has been adopted in state after state, experience across the nation has made clear that concealed carry not only benefits the individual. it benefits the society as a whole," Knox said. "Crime decreases," he said.

Citation please?

"[more guns] benefits society as a whole"

Please say that out loud. It sounds crazy.

timetospeakup 2 years, 9 months ago

Read the book "More Guns, Less Crime" by John Lott. He set out to write a book proving that sounds crazy but ended up telling the opposite story.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

More guns, in the hands of law abiding citizens, benefits society as a whole.

There, that wasn't hard. It looks promising for this bill, it has passed the house before.

Hooligan_016 2 years, 9 months ago

I just don't understand the pressing need/desire to have a firearm (in say, Dillon's @ 6pm) in a relatively small college town in Kansas (or any other Kansas community). This isn't the old wild west or east St. Louis or South Chicago or Baltimore. If anything, in an environment such as that, it can definitely make people more uneasy.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

Guess what, people have been going into Dillons with a legally concealed firearm for 5 years, none of them have make it any less safe. Heck, I bet ya people have been carrying illegally into Dillons for as long as it's been around.

I'm not going to point to the study that says CC lowers violent crime, but I KNOW you can't show any data where CC increases violence. So, worst case scenario, CC has no effect on crime or violence, then what does it matter to you? No one is forcing you to carry, so don't force you ideals on me.

How many cases can I point to where people felt safe, grocery stores, department stores, and college campuses where people thought, "it'll never happen here?"

BitterClinger 2 years, 9 months ago

Hooligan_016,

What if I am in Dillon's parking lot or in any parking lot in Lawrence during day light hours and a person who is bigger and stronger than I am wants to do me harm? How do I defend myself? What if their only 'weapon' is their fist and their strength? Can my fists and strength protect me from them? No, but legal firearm can.

graylanternlizard 2 years, 9 months ago

Wake up. I've seen many drug deals go down in parking lots of many local businesses. To believe crime does not exists in Lawrence would be laughable, if the subject matter was not so grave.

08Champs 2 years, 9 months ago

By law abiding you mean they have no convictions in the last 5 years - such high standards. And what, an 8 hour course? You can't train the idiot out of someone.

TopJayhawk 2 years, 9 months ago

You never need a gun until you need one really badly. Then it is too late.

Orwell 2 years, 9 months ago

Or until you decide, in a drunken rage, that your girlfriend has been cheating on you. That's when a gun is just the thing you need to set matters right.

Seriously, keep in mind that every violent felon once had a clean record.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

Most adult felons have demonstrated an inability to function in normal society by age 21.

dstnku34 2 years, 9 months ago

A gun is only useful if you're the first one to fire it.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

Not necessarily, but it certainly helps.

irvan moore 2 years, 9 months ago

when i was 19 years old the government gave us guns

jayneway 2 years, 9 months ago

Yet another reason why DATA and understanding at least a modicum of statistics is important. Show me the DATA (collected from a strong research design and then peer reviewed) that draws a direct CAUSAL relationship between carrying weapons and the reduction in crime!!

"I'm a state representative and this is true because I said it's true" doesn't cut it. It doesn't cut it whether the guy is republican or democrat.

Peacemaker452 2 years, 9 months ago

Are you asking for the sake of challenging the fidelity of the statement on statistical grounds or because the truth of the statement will influence how you feel about the subject at hand?

Flap Doodle 2 years, 9 months ago

"...And there is another type of Caps Lock user who doesn’t capitalize whole sentences but INSTEAD capitalizes a few SPECIFIC words for EMPHASIS. Now read a sentence like that aloud, shouting every time you come to a capitalized word, and tell me you do not sound like an absolute freakin’ lunatic. This method can turn even basic known facts into crazy-sounding gibberish (“The SQUARE of the HYPOTENUSE of a RIGHT triangle equals the SUM of the squares of the OTHER two sides”)..."

http://pjmedia.com/blog/tips-for-not-appearing-crazy-on-the-internet/?singlepage=true

gudpoynt 2 years, 9 months ago

you tell em snap, you don't have to use caps lock to sound like a lunatic.

KevinBacon 2 years, 9 months ago

And yet here you are, the burden of proof on your shoulders, and your post provides no citations, statistics, links to studies... or anything, really.

Although I do agree with you that "it's true because I say it's true" isn't good enough. Especially concerning our constitutionally guaranteed civil liberties.

jayneway 2 years, 9 months ago

I have no burden of proof. I'm just a lunatic caps lock USER.

BitterClinger 2 years, 9 months ago

Check out the book "More Guns Less Crime by John Lott. Go ahead. The Lawrence Plublic Library has a copy.

FBI Releases Preliminary Annual Crime Statistics for 2010 http://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-releases-preliminary-annual-crime-statistics-for-2010 "According to the FBI’s Preliminary Annual Uniform Crime Report released today, the nation experienced a 5.5 percent decrease in the number of violent crimes and a 2.8 percent decline in the number of property crimes in 2010 when compared with data from 2009. The report is based on information the FBI gathered from 13,007 law enforcement agencies that submitted six to 12 comparable months of data for both 2009 and 2010."

Crime drops in first half of 2009 Violent crime in the United States, including murder and robbery, dropped 4.4 percent in the first half of 2009. http://radio.woai.com/cc-common/news/sections/newsarticle.html?feed=104668&article=6492241

Putting the burden of proof on you where it belongs. Can you find ANYTHING ANYWHERE where less guns = less crime?

Using the same parameters you set up, can you show the DATA (collected from a strong research design and then peer reviewed) that draws a direct CAUSAL relationship between banning weapons and the reduction in crime?

Eride 2 years, 9 months ago

Most deaths and serious injuries involving firearms are ACCIDENTS, not intentional usage of the firearm. Allowing students to bring weapons to campus doesn't solve any problem, it only creates potential problems!

mom_of_three 2 years, 9 months ago

I can imagine it now - students calling in to campus police because they see someone with a gun (concealed maybe not so concealed), and then campus police have to check all those instances out. Or a party in a dorm and someone gets stupid, finds someone's gun. Course that could happen anywhere, but as smart as some college students are, some of them lack common sense.

mom_of_three 2 years, 9 months ago

My attitude is not bigoted. As a parent, I know some students, who may be adults age-wise, certainly do not act that way.

And BTW- I don't think its their "constitutional right" to carry guns on campus.

timetospeakup 2 years, 9 months ago

I was an RA at Naismith Hall a few years ago. This is a "dorm" but it's on private property and thus it's not a crime to have guns there.

I knew of a lot of guns in that building, but never once did we have an issue. College kids, especially college kids that own guns, are not idiots.

Scott Morgan 2 years, 9 months ago

Not here, but another state another U. Yep, we hunters always had them. I think there was some stupid rule about being unloaded in the dorm, but this is essentially gun safety. Tasty duck dinner was a nice treat back in the day.

Made me feel better just in case sneaky North Vietnam attacked Minnesota.

Enlightenment 2 years, 9 months ago

I guess the Republicans believe it is more important to make sure everyone is armed instead of looking at ways to create more jobs.

Graczyk 2 years, 9 months ago

The morgue business has been hurting as of late. This is a job creation bill.

Enlightenment 2 years, 9 months ago

However, more staff and equipment will need to be added at entrances, so this must be their way of job creation.

Enlightenment 2 years, 9 months ago

After more staff and equipment is needed at public facilities to accommodate this silly bill, the Republicans will be trying to figure out why expenses for facilities are increasing. Sad part is, they will ultimately cut staff salary and benefits to accommodate this bill, which has no proven benefit.

TopJayhawk 2 years, 9 months ago

Why would you need more equipment and personnel to monitor a legal activity? Like tbaker said; nothing but a strawman, you fail

Jan Rolls 2 years, 9 months ago

Because the ones with illegal guns can come in also. Is that too hard for you to understand?

Enlightenment 2 years, 9 months ago

So glad the Republicans in this state are tackling the important problems the state is facing.

somedude20 2 years, 9 months ago

More nutso then crazy cat people! This CC is the gateway drug to carrying around flamethrowers, rocket launchers, machine guns, hand grenades, tactical nuclear weapons and acid; much like letting homosexuals marry is the gateway drug to allowing marriage to dogs, polygamy, dolphins and Republicans

Dumb law but whatever......sure after a few years of inbreeding these folks who want to carry guns everywhere will not be able to see and will be deneid a permit due to limited sight (I mean what back woods place would allow the blind to own and carry)

Alexander Smith 2 years, 9 months ago

Okay this is the biggest joke. Drunk college kids with guns. ..and we need to have them on campus why?? Oh wait, the Apache indians might raid the campus...that or the wild bears and cougars will charge in and eat us. There is NO reason for concealed firearms to be allowed on campus NONE.

And here is the killer part..a funny situation. A student has a concealed to carry and decides to be stupid and actually take one. He steps into a class room, a teacher by chance sees it, calls the police. The police arrest the student for having a firearm in class room which is against the rules. The student gets kicked out of school or fined.

For those supporeting this..how much of a moron are you?? Thats great you can carry a firearm..BUT practically every public facility strictly prohibits firearms in the facility. So whats the STUPID point of having one? About the only place you can carry it is in your car. You can't have a concealed weapon in public parks? Did you know that ?? Its illegal.

As for what the one person stated about the fore fathers? He has a point. The reason we had the 2nd ammendment is because 1.) we didnt' have a strong military. 2.) we were expanding America into the wilds 3.) We had to deal with the natives. 4.) we had to hunt for our food... NOW lets fast foward to current day. 1.) we DO have as strong military. 2.) We are no longer expanding into unkown wilds. 3.) Don't have to worry about being scalped anymore. 4.) We have things called grocery stores. 5.) The only reason left that would really justifiy us having firearms is hunting and if someone invaded the USA. WHICH will NEVER happen. No country could sustain a invasion of the USA.

Oh one last thing, I have been to many safety courses around firearms and I can tell you at least 90 percent of the people do not have the skills nor the psychy to actually use it in high stress situation with out high chances of hurting/killing a innocent person.

Keep guns off campus, I will never send my kids to KU knowing there is a high chance there is a over zealous KU fan with a possible hand gun ready to lose and pull it out.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

Carriers are already allowed to carry on campus, just not into properly marked buildings. Students, however, are still subject to the schools rules.

This bill would take away the school's ability to create that rule. So if a teacher did call the police, he or she would not be subject to school ramifications.

Please learn the issue before you argue against them.

timetospeakup 2 years, 9 months ago

This bill doesn't take away the school's ability to create that rule - they can still have a no-weapons policy for students and discipline students caught carrying. They can still kick students out for carrying if that's their policy.

What it does is make it not a "gun crime" to carry in buildings on campus that don't have adequate security provided.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

I had read it differently the first time, but I can see where that might be the case. However, there is precedent in Oregon where the state ruled the college did not have the right to have that policy in place. I would imagine we would see a similar case in this state if something like that ever happened.

timetospeakup 2 years, 9 months ago

Maybe, maybe not. So far our legislature has been fairly willing to allow private policies to stand - they directly affirm the right of an employer to make it "against policy" for employees to carry a gun on the job, I think this would get lumped in that way.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

Also, the drunk college kid stereotype is insulting and ignorant.

think_about_it 2 years, 9 months ago

That was sarcasm right? If not what the hell are you smoking dude?

I've never seen a post with more inaccuracies, well, other that from bozo_on_the_bus

think_about_it 2 years, 9 months ago

Nevermind. I looked back though a few of your prior posts. Wow, you should win an award or something, man. You just can't make that stuff up.

chedder 2 years, 9 months ago

Looking at the largest state university in Kansas, KU. Enrollment is approx 27,000. 81% are over the age of 18, we'll be generous and assume 30% of those are over 21. This gives us 7290 enrolled students who are old enough to legally purchase a handgun, and are eligible for the KS CCHL. IIRC, approx 1.25% of the population statewide has been issued a CCHL. Applying this to the 7290 students of age would show that 73 students have a CCHL on the KU campus. Assuming all of these carry 100% of the time, there would be a maximum of 73 concealed firearms affected by this legislation at KU. Hardly a number I'm worried about. Go for it.

chootspa 2 years, 9 months ago

Will we be checking for CC permits just to make sure the number stays that low? And how many of these people (or townies, or people from the opposing team) will be at sporting events, where there have already been issues with mob behavior on occasion?

I don't really worry about permit holders starting something. I worry about the people who think it's easier to keep their weapon if they can just casually claim they've got a permit. I worry about friendly fire if there should be an altercation on campus. How's the PD going to know who to shoot?

But since it's only 76 students or so, how about we only release 7 rattlesnakes onto campus? That's a much, much lower number. They'd keep down the vermin population and be great for the campus. Rattlesnakes would prefer to avoid large animals like people, and as long as you know the safety precautions, you really can avoid being bitten. It's drunks and idiots who usually get bites because they're trying to catch the snake instead of leaving it around. I've been around rattlesnakes my entire life, and I know this to be true. So I'm sure that having only a few rattlesnakes on campus will make everyone feel safer, right?

Cade Butler 2 years, 9 months ago

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner, folks! Officially the dumbest, most insane concealed carry analogy in the history of anti-concealed carry arguments. That's quite an achievement.

BlackVelvet 2 years, 9 months ago

So nice to see so many people have such faith in their fellow man/woman. 1) MOST college "kids" would not qualify for a concealed carry permit. 2) The vast majority of permit holders are much more responsible than most of the posters on this forum. 3) the whole point of carrying concealed is that no one knows he/she is carrying (hence the word concealed) 4) you never know when or where a situation may arise when you need to protect yourself, therefore it's better to always be carrying. THe police can't be everywhere and they can't protect you. They come along after the fact and try to find the bad guy and arrest him/her. It's up to YOU to protect yourself and your loved ones. It's very easy to think nothing will happen at KU because, after all, it's a college campus! Tell that to the Virginia Tech folks. And others around the country.

oldvet 2 years, 9 months ago

An armed criminal will kill an unarmed victim with monotonous regularity...

mom_of_three 2 years, 9 months ago

right...concealed...on your person and no one EVER knows....right.... Tell that to college students who sometimes dont wear enough to cover their bodies or even coats in bad weather.
And concealed doesn't mean that we DON"T know that you are carrying...it means you have legal permission to hide it under your clothing, according to how I read it. But if you are concealing it, then we may not necessarily see it or not necessarily know you are carrying it. Believe me, not everyone hides it very well.

chootspa 2 years, 9 months ago

They'll all be required to wear the "I'm packing heat, and it's ok!" T-shirt, so we can distinguish the people packing who hide it well and those who don't. Also, all backpacks and purses will be emblazoned with a lowjack that lights up and says "This backpack or purse was stolen from someone with a CC permit, so please call 555-5555 before I go on a shooting spree."

chedder 2 years, 9 months ago

Correction: 1/3 of 27000 is 7290 rather than 30%.

Flap Doodle 2 years, 9 months ago

You can still send little Billy and Susie to college in the People's Republic of Illinois where there is no legal concealed carry for ordinary citizens.

chootspa 2 years, 9 months ago

Bonus: They've also got better colleges.

chedder 2 years, 9 months ago

I've got to stop posting from my phone... 1.25% of 7290 is 92 students. Cripes.

CardHawkFan 2 years, 9 months ago

Guns don't kill people, people kill people. However, somewhere that equation changes when you increase the number of people who have access to guns. I took hunter's safety when I was a child and have even enjoyed firing guns at ranges recently as well. However, just seems like the opportunity for violent crimes increase when you provide "ammunition." A firecracker is just a an object until you add a flame. Law enforcement has to be going nuts over this...headline reads "Reports of body count increases during routine traffic stops, etc." Now police will need to have guns drawn just to write tickets because they will never know if person has a firearm. Not that they don't know now, but I would say it increases the likelihood. It is a frustrating situation as it is anyway when a person gets pulled over, now picture it when the chances increase that both parties involved have a deadly weapon and now one of the two just started having a cruddy day. Just doesn't make sense and I am not sure how a Rep from Altoona would have a better idea about what rules should be like in busier places any way. Not 100% sure, but I am guessing there are more people at the Salty Iguana for Hawk Talk than live in that town. And, I love the folks from southeast Kansas because I am one of them!

Flap Doodle 2 years, 9 months ago

"Reports of body count increases during routine traffic stops, etc." Doesn't seem to have happened since Kansas set up a concealed carry permit system. BTW, police do not know who has a firearm. They have to keep in mind that anyone might, legally or illegally, and act accordingly. That generally doesn't mean drawing everytime they make a traffic stop. The one time I've been stopped by a LEO (for a burned out brake light) while I was carrying, I informed the officer what was going on. He asked to see my permit. I showed it to him & that was the end of that. No fuss, no muss, nobody getting their knickers in a twist. Lighten up, Francis.

BlackVelvet 2 years, 9 months ago

Exactly! Cops have pulled people over who have been carrying, both legally and otherwise, for years now.

timetospeakup 2 years, 9 months ago

Cops don't care about the guy who follows the rules and has a permit - they care about the guy who doesn't follow the laws and doesn't have a permit. If anything, they can be a little relaxed around people with a permit because they know permit holders have at least a basic level of respect for the law.

TheGreatOz 2 years, 9 months ago

Just because this law has been passed does not mean that every college student on campus is going to bring a gun to campus. How many college students already have a Concealed Carry Handgun license? How many are going to run out and pay the $132.50 license fees? There's also 8 hours of training involved in obtaining the license with a certified instructor.

jonas_opines 2 years, 9 months ago

I would guess the odds are extremely likely that whether this passes or does not pass, unless you were looking for it, nobody would every know the difference.

It seems like both those people yelling in horror at the thought of it passing, and those declaring that you should always be carrying your gun because You Never Know, should try to be less fearful and paranoid. It must be hard to go through life with so much fear of the unknown.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

I agree that there would be no noticeable change.

But being prepared because "you never know" is not paranoia, it's realism. Do you carry a spare tire on your care because you're paranoid? Do you have a 72-hour kit because you're paranoid about a tornado?

it's about preparedness, a firearm is just a tool in the self-defense bag.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

What about a tire iron?

You fear the gun more than I fear the unknown. To the CC, a firearm is a tool, and so there is no more reason to fear they will assault you with it than assault you with a tire iron.

KansasKansan 2 years, 9 months ago

Straw man all over the place. People with criminal intentions will use what is at their disposal. CCW is a deterrent to criminal behavior directed toward the individual. Ask a criminal if they fear a "gun-free zone" or a ccw holder.

chedder 2 years, 9 months ago

Chootspa,

Concealed carry is prohibited at non-shooting sporting events. Those who I've met that do carry observe the law, including where they can and cannot carry, so none would be there armed.

What do you mean "I worry about the people who think it's easier to keep their weapon if they can just casually claim they've got a permit."? Keep their weapon in what scenario?

Friendly fire is a concern. I'd imagine your odds of surviving an event involving a shooter with nobody to offer resistance is much lower than if there is someone there defending themselves. I won't say for certain, because I have no data though. I try to keep this opinion logical and information based.

Rattlesnakes = cchl holders now? I can't say I've heard that argument. I can't say it makes sense, either. Incidental contact with a rattlesnake may result in injury/death, incidental contact with CCHL holders happens everyday without incident. You've probably been a part of this, without even knowing it. How about the example of capturing rattlesnakes, removing their fangs/venom and releasing them back into the wild? I think that will go well for the snake. We'll just put up signs that say "No eating snakes", the animals are sure to abide by the signs, right?

kochmoney 2 years, 9 months ago

Wouldn't this law modify where they're prohibited? Does it still explicitly prohibit sporting events? What about the tailgating and people who watch from the hill?

I think the rattlesnake analogy was not a guns=snakes in a literal sense but guns = fear in the same way that snakes = fear. So people wouldn't come to campus knowing that there were snakes there (which there are, and you probably didn't even know it), while they'd come not knowing for sure that there were snakes. I have no idea where you're going with the defanging argument. Nobody's proposed doing that ever, as far as I know. The analogy wasn't that good, but that response was even weaker.

Yes, I'm sure the CCH are all saints who do no wrong, even the blind ones, and even the reciprocal carriers who may not be up on the specifics of Kansas law, but the friendly fire argument still bothers me. I don't think anyone should carry unless they've had as much training as a police officer, because they're putting themselves in the position of acting like one.

chedder 2 years, 9 months ago

AFAIK, and I've read most of the legislation, it would still prohibit non-sporting sporting events. The Hill is a public place, and isn't able to be prohibited anyway. Only buildings are able to be 'posted' per KS PFPA.

The reference here is that disarming citizens is akin to disarming an animal. Afterwards, they are both defenseless. Ppl should only fear CCHL on campus because they are ignorant to the facts. The same ppl that carry concealed everyday everywhere are the same that would be carrying into buildings on campus and are the same ppl that are able to carry everywhere but buildings currently. I say that those who fear CCHL in campus buildings are only so because they are ignorant because these same ppl pass hundreds of concealed weapons everyday in all other places. The demographic is no different, the firearms are no different, and the result is no different. There have been no OK Corral shootouts, no accidental CCHL shootings, etc. It just doesn't happen.

The police are there to take pictures and fill body bags. By nature, they are reactive in nature. After something happens they show up. This measure would create the need to either create a police presence that is effective in preventing crime, or allow responsible citizens to be responsible for their own safety.

This isn't an issue of CCHL on campus or anywhere else. This is an issue of allowing CCHL everywhere BUT a few places. This would simply allow the law to be applied equally in all situations. If your opinion opposes this, you should opposing the KS PFPA, not this specific legislation which rectifies an anomaly in the existing PFPA.

kuguardgrl13 2 years, 9 months ago

Having been to the last three KU-KSU football games, I have to say I'm a little terrified of CC being allowed on Campus. The tailgate lots in Lawrence and Manhattan are bad enough without guns in the mix (I've had words and cans thrown at me). Give the drunk, angry fans guns, and we'll be another school in the headlines. Maybe it's good that Mizzou is off to the SEC. You can say all you want about how CC people have to be trained, but alcohol and emotions lead anyone to make stupid decisions. This bill is only going to strain local governments more as they try to increase security in their buildings.

Also, will local schools and daycare centers be gun-free? Let's be honest, USD 497 can't afford to put metal detectors at the entrances to every building.

chedder 2 years, 9 months ago

The fans who attend the game are already prohibited from carrying concealed, as already covered in the comments above (Reference KS PFPA). Also, carrying concealed is illegal if under the influence, so law abiding citizens wouldn't be carrying while drunk, now would they? Of course, if we introduce the idea that non-law abiding citizens are willing to ignore legislation, we then invalidate the argument that signs alone do any good at all. This leads one to draw one of two conclusions: a) security must be provided or b) individuals must be responsible for their own security. Hence the proposed legislation.

Also, schools and daycare centers are currently off limites only if they post the requisite attorney general specified signage. They have the option to not 'post'. However, under the new legislation they would be required to provide security if they choose to disarm those who would otherwise defend themselves in the facility. This is only required if they so choose to disarm their guests.

I equate concealed carry to seat belts, spare tires, fire extinguishers, etc. I hope I never have to use them, but I know how should the need ever arise. I also loosely relate gun ownership to driving. There is an enormous responsibility, which requires education and practice. The stakes are similar, both for the driver and those around them.

Kirk Larson 2 years, 9 months ago

Mose republican strategy for creating jobs...for EMT's, ER Doctors, undertakers, SWAT teams...

brewmaster 2 years, 9 months ago

If this bill becomes law then we can be comforted knowing that "responsible student-athletes" like the Morris twins could legally conceal and carry lethal guns around KU campus. As opposed to just shooting at students from their dorm room window with BB and pellet guns.

Lawrence Morgan 2 years, 9 months ago

This is a very BAD idea. It makes me feel much more hesitant about recommending people to go to KU.

graylanternlizard 2 years, 9 months ago

Huh? Really? Your afraid of people legally carrying a concealed weapon on campus. What about those already packing guns illegally? The criminals. I hate to tell you this, but these people are already there. Where was your hesitancy before the conceal carry issue.

Joe Hyde 2 years, 9 months ago

Do we have crime reports or statistics on file that give evidence of aggravated assaults taking place on any campus properties or classrooms in the state of Kansas? I'm talking about the kind of assaults where the use of deadly force by a concealed carry student or professor could be justified as a means of preventing death or serious bodily injury to someone who is being attacked on campus property?

Somehow I doubt a significant threat exists, or ever did exist. This Bill looks like an election year solution in desperate search of a real-world problem to solve.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

Except that a similar bill was brought forward last year as well.

Also, it's not a matter of how dangerous an area is that justifies concealed carry. The truth is there are very few places where you are completely safe, thus, there is always a chance, albeit remote, that violence could strike where you are at. I don't like to speak out on hypothetical about what would have happened at VT, but I bet it was a very safe school before that incident. Threat should not have to be a precursor to allow for self-defense.

kochmoney 2 years, 9 months ago

Let's not forget about the original campus shooter. Concealed carry didn't prevent Charles Whitman from shooting people off the bell tower, nor did it stop him from doing it for over an hour and a half, even though there were quite a few well-armed Texans shooting back at him. It was a police officer that finally ended his campus killing spree.

I'm sure it was a very safe school before that. I'm sure the armed faculty members and students felt very secure.

Jonathan Fox 2 years, 9 months ago

I find it sad that I can count on one hand the number of posters that even understand the issue. Most here don't know anything about our existing concealed carry laws. This is a law only for allowing CC on public university campuses and some gov't buildings. There already is concealed carry allowed on most other places. How many shootouts with innocent people being hit by CC holders are there? Can anyone give an example? That's 90-some % of the whole state, and now everyone is freaking out about carrying on school campuses?

How many people do you think would have died at Virginia Tech if a student somewhere happened to be carrying. 32 people died and 25 more injured before a response was made. The first thing CC holders learn is the fact that you know what your firing at and anything behind it. Why is it so hard to understand that a 8 hour class teaches a lot and makes for a very capable person to stop from having so many people die.

When officers arrive on a scene, they always announce themselves. Next, they would identify a weapon and order them to drop it. A CC holder knows (from their 8 hour course) to immediately drop their weapon. Officers aren't going to come into a room, see a gun, and start shooting, CC or not an officer will handle the situation the same.

Please try and learn about the issue. If a CC allowed on campus is allowed on campus, I'd like to think that alone scares anyone from trying to open fire on students and if not I think a lot less than 32 people will die before the threat can be taken down.

It seems to me that everyone is more worried about the off chance of an accident than about taking down a threat from killing people.

anagram 2 years, 9 months ago

This is a breathtakingly bad idea. It's not even worthy of debate.

TopJayhawk 2 years, 9 months ago

Say what you want. Concealed carry has been the law of the land in various states for yrs.
Something like 47 states allow it. And Vermont has no gun laws for this. Millions of people are licensed.
The press would be all over a case of CCL abuse. It just hasn't happened. There's your proof.

brutus 2 years, 9 months ago

All the people that think this is a bad idea that think a Virginia type incident is so rare....and maybe it is. But- How many women have been raped on campus in the last 50 years?

Michael LoBurgio 2 years, 9 months ago

brutus

Republicans think rape isn’t a crime, but miscarriages are.

Alexander Smith 2 years, 9 months ago

I got a few words... and think about it..

Guns on campus.. legal....... Hilltop daycare.. 80+ children.... College student with a gun..

Enough said. Guns need to be removed from campus. Only POLICE should have them.. They are trained to handle them and handle them in high pressure situations. The REST OF US ARE NOT. Sadly the only thing that is going to wake up the morons fighting for this law is for a innocent person or child to be killed by student/teacher with a concealed to carry weapon.

OH one last thing.. the British are not going to invade KU Camputs nor the Indians. Thats one of the reasons the second ammendment was created.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

Are you saying that otherwise normal college students will suddenly snap and turn into mass child murders?

timetospeakup 2 years, 9 months ago

The guns on campus ship has already sailed - it's already legal for a 21 year old student with a carry permit to carry outside. this law only affects going into buildings that are posted.

Flap Doodle 2 years, 9 months ago

And the moaning and wailing did rise up into the firmament from the disappointed progressives who want to eventually disarm responsible American citizens. Sucks to be you guys. (from a source)

firebird27 2 years, 9 months ago

Someone posed a question about research on having guns and crime. Author John R. Lott, Jr. has conducted empirical studies in which the evidence the presence of guns reduce crime rather than increase it. To access information about his work, get onto Amazon.com and enter the book title, More Guns, Less Crime

KansasVoices 2 years, 9 months ago

That's right ... Norm Stewart, Billy Tubbs and Johnny Orr are completely safe when they bring their FELONS into the house that Phog built.

Getaroom 2 years, 9 months ago

Well now, isn't this just 38 Special! OK, now it is past high time the requirements to get a Kansas CC Permit must be upgraded and ASAP. As it stands now it's a joke. Don't believe me? Pay up and do it - simple in and out, with the most minimal of skill and intellectual abilities required. It is generally understood that the test is "taught" and few fail. The percentage of failures is very small indeed. Reassuring isn't it? The shooting abilities test is a joke for sure!! To qualify as CC worthy, nothing short of a full 50 hours of controlled range time should be required, maybe more, but certainly until skill at arms is proven and certified by a qualified instructor. No Free Market Capitalist should have any issues with that right? It's just business eh - Math? CC is a very big responsibility and should not be entered into lightly by anyone at any legal age. The chances of being in a situation that require the action of drawing a handgun from concealment are rare and few, if ever in civilian life -thankfully. The responsibility of removing a handgun from concealment with the distinct purpose of defending the life of another or yourself is great. This cannot be emphasized enough. The pure legalities are great by just carrying the weapon, let alone actually discharging a weapon in public, as in a college classroom. I am all for gun ownership and support it fully. However what I see being bantered around on this blog today and many other times - is a form of mass hysteria. Anyone who has ever been placed in a position to actually discharge a weapon at another human and kill them, will know this to be true. In combat, I have been in such situations so ask yourselves, "am I ready to kill another person" before you embark on this path of CC. Be ready to give your finger prints, remove your weapon in places that do not allow handguns, i.e., bars! Alcohol Jell-o Shooters and guns do not mix party goers. Think this is too strong, wait until you are faced with making the choice to draw and you will know strong. All this "I am an American", "Guns are my GOD given right" tough militia, anti Obama junk - is crap compared to the reality of shooting another human. It is not fun and games, "play time Patriots" - it is for keeps!! Remember, this is not a question of simple gun ownership, this is about allowing people to carry a gun, for which the sole purpose of removing from concealment and pointing at another person is, to kill, not wound but kill! Get that? That is a big deal and has nothing to do with being Patriotic or how much one hates Obama, or any other political jargon. That has no place in this discussion - period!

gl0ck0wn3r 2 years, 9 months ago

So basically you are suggesting only the rich should have the ability to get a license? Why do you hate poor people?

obamasocks 2 years, 9 months ago

Idiotic. So by the same argument, why not allow high schools to conceal carry guns to high school?

How many shootings have been on campus in the past decade? You think this will actually DECREASE that number?

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

You have to be above 21 to get a CCH.

This wouldn't just effect campus, for the many students who live off campus, that requires traveling, many times walking, to and from campus. Since the place you are going doesn't allow firearms, you won't be able to carry it to and from campus, including off campus locations where I can point to shootings. Also, shall we look at campuses that didn't have a history of violence that still experienced a shooting?

Past threat should not be a prerequisite for self-defense.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

Wow, this post is actually quite violent and scary. I would worry much more about your mental state than a licensed concealed carrier.

gl0ck0wn3r 2 years, 9 months ago

Pretty sure swan-diver just violated the law there. Congratulations.

Fred Whitehead Jr. 2 years, 9 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

/ Not a republican

Totally support this bill. Your post consists of nothing but attacks with no actual points. Posts like this only further the political divide and further the destructive rhetoric that is becoming all the more common.

Kevin Haislip 2 years, 9 months ago

next they will allow guns in bars and strip clubs! what are they thinking?

Bob_Loblaw 2 years, 9 months ago

Horrible idea..... Many college students will and do exhibit "unstable behaviors"...whether its from stress, poor academic performance, drinking, drug use....or simply and commonly.....pulling an "all-nighter". All of the above can lead to momentary lapses in judgment that can have detrimental consequences when carrying a weapon. The University felt that students were under enough pressure to institute a Fall Break (it was not around when I was at KU).

So lets arm them as well and sanction it...

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

If this is the case, then why haven't the college aged students who are already legally carrying off campus "snapped" from the stress?

Getaroom 2 years, 9 months ago

gl0ck0wn3r: So you think I am rich? Look this conversation is about CC permits and not about how many AR-15's, or 50 cal. Desert Eagles one my or may not have in their gun safe. I know people who will buy guns before feeding themselves or their children - and I am serous about that!

My entire point is that it should not be that easy to get a CC Permit, rich, poor, middle class. Day in and day out people of all socioeconomic classes make choices about how to prioritize their resources. When was the last time you went nearly anywhere, in any neighborhood, that you didn't see a TV? It is rare and choices can be made.

If having a small powerful concealed weapon is important enough to a person they will do it, so why not have them skilled at arms? You afraid of being out gunned at the OK Corral? So based on what you are saying, you support anyone having a CC Permit, no matter how minimally they can safely operate a concealed weapon. It seems so, anything goes and above all else - make it affordable too? Since when was gun ownership about affordability? Never. Take that up with the manufacturers - seriously - and see how that works out. Oh, the poor can't afford handguns, please help out the poor get conceal carry permits too. You might think then about starting the first ever "gun stamp and conceal carry program". This is not about sport shooting and game hunting, it is about carrying to kill. Yes, put protect in front of that kill, I don't care about the order. I do not believe, all of a sudden, a wild bunch drunk of college kids will burst onto the scene and start slaughtering people, NO! I am not hysterical. You just don't want any rules, or anyone telling you want you can and can't do. A return to the Wild Lawless West. Survival of the fittest in a dog eat dog world. The free part of gun ownership, is that you are free to have one, not that you are free to do anything you want with one. You have a dangerous attitude.

gl0ck0wn3r 2 years, 9 months ago

You missed my point entirely. You argued that license applicants should undergo fifty hours of instruction. Such a requirement would essentially mean that the only people who could meet those requirements are those with the financial means to do so.

graylanternlizard 2 years, 9 months ago

I am amazed at the misconceptions people have concerning conceal carry laws and those who carry. First, one has to be 21 years of age to even be permitted to obtain a conceal carry permit. So, the majority of student are NOT even able to obtain a conceal carry permit. For those wanting a conceal carry permit they must 1st: Pass an 8 hours training session. The majority of the class consists of vigilant adherence to gun safety and the strict laws one must abide by if given the right to carry. Then one must pass a firing range test to demonstrate ones competency when handling a weapon. 2nd: The individual is required to be finger printed at the local sheriff's office. These prints are submitted to the Attorney General's Office and a thorough background check is conducted. After approximately 6 to 8 weeks, if all criteria are met only then is a permit issued. The people one should fear is not the law abiding citizen that has legally obtained the permit. Those to be feared are the thugs and criminal who pack a gun illegally. Their guns are either stolen or obtained on the black market with serial numbers erased on the weapon. They have no sense of decency and no regard for another's life. Worst of all, these individuals are everywhere. It is a sad reality of current life. They are downtown, in our parks, in parking lots of major businesses and YES probably on campus. Those who choose to conceal carry hope they NEVER have to draw their weapon in self defense. People need to understand who the real enemy is……...

DillonBarnes 2 years, 9 months ago

This is another misconception about concealed carriers. It's not about paranoia, it's about preparedness.

When I'm in public, I'm aware, but not afraid.

graylanternlizard 2 years, 9 months ago

Just the facts. I'll let you be the one to explain to the victims of a violent crimes that the thought of defending or arming themselves would be an act of "paranoia and hysteria". Your words not mine. I respect your views. A lot of times ignorance is bliss. I see beauty in life and people around me all the time, but there is that small percentage of the population with no regard for others. I will not allow myself or my family to be victims of a violent crime. I am not paranoid, just cautious and always aware of my surroundings.

By the way, there are only 5 poisonous snakes native to Kansas. They are the Copperhead, Cottonmouth, Massasauga, Timber Rattler, and the Prairie Rattler. Last know death by a venous snake in Kansas was 1890, so I do agree carrying ACP or CroFab would fall under the realm of paranoia and hysteria.

My father was a boilermaker and he would disagree that wearing a hard hat on a job site could be construed as paranoia and hysteria. OSHA would disagree as well.

I wish you well. I agree to disagree. Nothing wrong with that. Be safe, be careful and always aware of your surroundings.

gudpoynt 2 years, 9 months ago

yeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaawwwwww!

Instantaneous Deputization! That's what I'm talkin about.

You gotta fight! For your right! To shoooooooooot the evil doers!

yourworstnightmare 2 years, 9 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

KansasKansan 2 years, 9 months ago

what is it that you are trying to address? You say:

"What is the job of a CC if their tool is a gun that no one knows they have? How much are these CC paid for their job and who is their supervisor?"

Do you propose that having a tool means you have a job, a salary, and supervisor?

Do you have an argument?

KansasKansan 2 years, 9 months ago

Nevermind, I see how you like to troll.

KansasKansan 2 years, 9 months ago

Again with the straw man. You are knocking down arguments that you yourself invented. Nobody is saying "we should all be armed". You do state, "I also have absolutely no reason to need a gun." Fine. Don't.

I'm starting to think your setting this up for me to knock down.

Contrary to popular myth, most psychiatric professionals agree that the notion of a previously sane, well-adjusted person simply ‘snapping’ and becoming violent is not supported by case evidence. A Secret Service study* into school shootings concluded that school shooters do not simply snap and that a person’s downward spiral toward violence is typically accompanied by numerous warning signs.

*“Safe School Initiative: An Interim Report on the Prevention of Targeted Violence in Schools,” U.S. Secret Service National Threat Assessment Center in collaboration with the U.S. Department of Education with support from the National Institute of Justice, Co-Directors Bryan Vossekuil, Marissa Reddy PhD, Robert Fein PhD, October 2000

Here's an article full of examples: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/01/wildfire/concealed-carry-do-the-math/

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