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Archive for Thursday, September 8, 2011

South Lawrence Trafficway appeal awaits oral arguments

September 8, 2011, 5:27 p.m. Updated September 9, 2011, 5:18 a.m.

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Federal Highway Administration legal brief ( .PDF )

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Trafficway opponents legal brief ( .PDF )

The written record is now set in the legal battle over planned completion of the South Lawrence Trafficway, setting the stage for attorneys on both sides of the issue to speak directly to three appeals court judges.

At stake: Whether the $192 million project can continue as designed, with construction contractors to be hired in late 2013, or whether plans for the highway must face a new round of regulatory study and potential redirection.

Groups opposed to the project are asking the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals to halt the project, saying the Federal Highway Administration and Kansas Department of Transportation are violating federal law by pursuing a route through the Baker Wetlands.

“They argue that a path through the wetlands would disrupt the wetlands less than a path that would go around the wetlands,” said Bob Eye, an attorney representing six environmental groups and the Prairie Band Pottawatomie Nation. “That logic has always been contrary to both common sense and what we believe the law requires.”

The brief is the last legal document required before the case can be set for oral arguments, likely next year, before a three-member panel of appellate judges. The judges will determine whether to let stand a ruling by U.S. District Judge Kathryn Vratil, who last year affirmed the process used by the Federal Highway Administration in choosing a 32nd Street alignment for completing the trafficway.

The highway would connect with the existing trafficway at Iowa Street, at the southern edge of town, and run east, through the wetlands, to Kansas Highway 10 near Noria Road.

The Federal Highway Administration filed its final legal brief last month. The brief maintains, among other things, that the route through the wetlands — in conjunction with plans for removing and rerouting adjacent roads, plus expanding the wetlands, providing for the area’s maintenance and creating an educational center — would be better for the wetlands, overall.

In the brief, the highway administration noted that it already had determined that a route outside the wetlands, along a 42nd Street alignment, would not be prudent.

“Such an inquiry calls for judgment, for balancing, for the practical settlement of disputes on which reasonable people will disagree,” the highway administration said, in its brief. “FHWA’s conclusion ... is reasonable and should be upheld.”

Comments

sad_lawrencian 3 years, 3 months ago

This project has caused Lawrence/Douglas County to become the laughingstock of northeastern Kansas. Let's get the project completed already. Let them duke it out in court after it's finished.

blondejuan 3 years, 3 months ago

Actually you can't call them the laughing stock anymore. They had the highest jobs growth in 2010 than any other year. We used to get all their upper management employees to come here to live. Not anymore. More jobs, more people staying in topeka. Means more money stays there.

Not Lawrence. We argue every business that comes here. Lots of people shop out of town. No money coming into town. Little money staying in town.

Not good economics!!!

jjt 3 years, 3 months ago

I just wanted to know that if the oral arguments fail before the 3 Judges does that mean the legals are done and the SLT goes ahead or can there still be more legal challenges?

Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

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kujayhawk7476 3 years, 3 months ago

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ralphralph 3 years, 3 months ago

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2002 3 years, 3 months ago

Once I was against the SLT, vehemently against it. I was young and took the word of instructors that I had at the time. After looking closer at it and educating myself, without bias from outside, I realized that almost all of the opposition to the SLT is based on either inaccurate information, misinterpretation or lies. My position is that I don't oppose anymore.

First, the road does not damage a pristine wetland area. As far as wetlands go, it is marginal at best. Second, the notion that the area has a value to indigenous people is hogwash. The area has no more value than a building on Bob Billings Parkway or the campus at Haskell. These first two arguments are the main two arguments that I used to oppose the SLT. My position changed partly because I found that the facts supporting most of the opposition were flawed and then because if the behavior of many that oppose the SLT.

As far as the comment that white people that support the SLT are uneducated and that if they support the SLT they denigrate indigenous religions is outright racist. Why? most of the opposition to the SLT, historically, has been from white people. There is no accurate data that this specific area had anymore of a special religious value that any other wetland area.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 3 months ago

Imagine that-- a "convert" now suddenly asserts that everything they once believed is a lie.

That's really persuasive.

Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

better yet leave the Indian land your state and federal governments stole for you in the Kansas Nebraska Act of 1854 and go back to where you came from. Shawnee, Kaw, Delaware and Osage languages were spoken here. English is an immigrant language. Halito...chim achukma? sa hochiffo ut Mike..sa okla ut chahta okla hannali...chahta imanumpa ish anumpuli hinla ho? chahta anumpuli ut achukma hoke. Baker stole it.. that's what protestant denominations did in Kansas in the 19th century. Baptists stole Ottawa tribal land and let the US Government pay for it 103 years after the theft. Moravian or Church of the Bretheren leaders stole Munsee lands through five states and two countries over three centuries ending in Kansas in 1900. We know what your denominations did...why don't you?

Curtis Lange 3 years, 3 months ago

Indians are immigrants too so get off your high horse.

Armored_One 3 years, 3 months ago

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Cant_have_it_both_ways 3 years, 3 months ago

It is time to fully defund the BIA. Seven generations have passed, and no walking around on this planet has anything to do with the past, except paying the bill.

HINO is a money pit and an eye sore. If it was not here, those who are causing these problems would not be here either.

Getaroom 3 years, 3 months ago

So what you re saying, is that if no people inhabited the Earth there would be no issues and certainly no greed or profiteering? That makes a lot of sense really! The Earth would be great if it were not for the people. Like that old saying,"Mexico would be great if there were no Mexicans". Nice, real nice. You show 'em how it's done Can't_ have_ it .... This blog would be great too - if it were not for the blatant racism .

Cant_have_it_both_ways 3 years, 3 months ago

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 3 months ago

"It is time to fully defund the BIA."

The BIA exists as a result of treaty obligations. I'm sure that if the US wants to renege on that, the various tribes would gladly take the land they gave up in return. Maybe the states of N. Dakota and S. Dakota and half of the states of Kansas, Oklahoma and Nebraska for a start?

ralphralph 3 years, 3 months ago

The Kaw were immigrants to this area.
According to their own history which I have read, much of that migration occurred as recently as the 1750s. I found no documentation that they sought or received permission from the prior inhabitants to claim and occupy these lands.

Your people STOLE the Kaw Valley. Give it back.

Ron Holzwarth 3 years, 3 months ago

Israel has tried that argument at least 6 times since 1948.

It never did work.

Clinton Laing 3 years, 3 months ago

In fact I learned that the greater good is completely ignored by special interests like Indians and environmentalists. That is what I learned, and am still learning every day.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 3 months ago

There is no "greater good" in paving over the wetlands. It's all about satisfying your special interest.

doc1 3 years, 3 months ago

Every time there has been a court ruling it's been approved. This is another stalling tactic that will not work in the end. It will however cost everyone more time and money. Not to mention all the extra gas that is being wasted on thousands of cars stopping and going through town when they could save gas if the road is ever built. Correction, when the road is build. It will happen.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 3 months ago

"Not to mention all the extra gas that is being wasted on thousands of cars stopping and going through town when they could save gas if the road is ever built."

So, let's put a little math to your "ecological concern."

The road will cost $193 million. If we figure gas at $4 a gallon, that's nearly 50 million gallons of gas. How soon do you think the construction of the leg of the SLT will conserve 50 million gallons of gasoline over current usage/driving patterns?

Please be very specific, and keep in mind that the overwhelming majority of traffic on 23rd street are there because that's where they want to be.

conservative 3 years, 3 months ago

Bozo it's more than 4 dollars per gallon, it's wear and tear on the cars, it's the extra time spent driving which if it is a truck driver is money spent, if you're a commuter it's time away from your family, it's the extra pollution created by stop and go traffic which has a cost.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 3 months ago

Heaven forfend, it's a humanitarian disaster!! Must pave the wetlands!!

Here's a new slogan for you guys--

Five minutes of convenience or death!!!

Clinton Laing 3 years, 3 months ago

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just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 3 months ago

If the SLT is completed, there will be absolutely no change in the amount of traffic on 19th Street, and very little change on 23rd.

But I understand that hyperbole is your friend when five minutes of convenience is at stake.

gl0ck0wn3r 3 years, 3 months ago

lolz what's wrong with convenience? Even if that was the only reason - which it isn't - so what? Enough with that lame argument, Jello.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 3 months ago

I can give $193 million things wrong with this particular bit of convenience. And that's just the short list.

Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

observant, you're not very observant are you? in fact you were the very type of comment maker I was referring to..go figure...doc1, nice of you not to have to threaten to make a point..furthermore in an area of we can't afford anything tea party and republicans who make it no secret of their hatred of funding the construction of infrastructure in this country and state for that matter as part of their we hate government mantra, they sure want the government to do this in spite of how hypocritical it makes them look with their we hate government rantings. This road can no longer be afforded..why else would there be some dimwit idea for a toll road? the railroading of this project can be attempted but when it goes like the WaDot Bridge Pontoon Project that desecrated over 400 Klallam graves on Puget Sound and a $43 million project is abandoned and millions of dollars are paid in damages how smart will any of you people feel?

kujayhawk7476 3 years, 3 months ago

You bore us....we don'r care what you think. The road should have been built 12 years ago, and Mr. Eye has made a fortune representing a losing cause that none of you who pay him recognize. Losers!!

Getaroom 3 years, 3 months ago

No! Mr. Eye does not make a bunch of $$ for this work.

Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

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Armored_One 3 years, 3 months ago

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kujayhawk7476 3 years, 3 months ago

I believe you are an American also, are you not? If you aren't are you an illegal immigrant?

TheBigW 3 years, 3 months ago

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nativeson 3 years, 3 months ago

The delay of this project is the one largest loss in economic development for Lawrence over the last 25 years. Secondly, it has burdened the lives of all residents of Lawrence living south of 23rd street east of Iowa.

The plans are complete and right-of-way purchased. It needs to happen now. The wetlands mitigation is almost complete, and the benefits to Haskell residents and other homeowners in the area far outweigh any loss of land that was never very productive in the first place.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 3 months ago

Oh the humanity!!

Five minutes of convenience or death!!!!!

hujiko 3 years, 3 months ago

Oh the humanity!!

Fifty-six acres and three hundred fifty to replace it!!!!!

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

Tuschie and Bozo can rant and whaa all they want, it is a free country, right? But the point is, I believe, that the 10th Circuit will ultimately see that the lawsuit never had any merits. Just as Vratil said in her ruling - KDOT and FHWA did nothing wrong. Even the points that the plaintiffs are trying to get some traction with (the noise study and the mitigation costs) were completely misinterpreted by the plaintiffs and the judge was misled by them. Eye and Praeger have a weak, if not non-existent, case. It is all about stalling to get it to drag past the time when the 404 permit expires in Dec. 2013. To some it is a nail biter and to some it is a slow-motion slam dunk but by May or June 2012 the legal fight will be past and the current plaintiffs will start to make up some other reason to try to stop the road. It is unfortunate that they can't see that the road will not impact the sacred land that Baker owns. After the SLT it will still be sacred and still be accessible...so what's the REAL problem?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 3 months ago

Who knows how the court will rule? You very well could be right.

But the legal system in this country has long been a method of choice for screwing Indians. Why should this be any different?

Ron Holzwarth 3 years, 3 months ago

This debate has been going on for over two decades.

Surely it will be settled one way or another within a century.

http://www.kansan.com/news/2010/feb/10/preservation-or-progression-wakarusa-wetlands/

Ron Holzwarth 3 years, 3 months ago

When all the trees have been cut down, when all the animals have been hunted, when all the waters are polluted, when all the air is unsafe to breathe, only then will you discover you cannot eat money.

Cree Prophecy


Before our white brothers arrived to make us civilized men, we didn't have any kind of prison. Because of this, we had no delinquents. Without a prison, there can be no delinquents. We had no locks nor keys and therefore among us there were no thieves. When someone was so poor that he couldn't afford a horse, a tent or a blanket, he would, in that case, receive it all as a gift. We were too uncivilized to give great importance to private property. We didn't know any kind of money and consequently, the value of a human being was not determined by his wealth. We had no written laws laid down, no lawyers, no politicians, therefore we were not able to cheat and swindle one another. We were really in bad shape before the white men arrived and I don't know how to explain how we were able to manage without these fundamental things that (so they tell us) are so necessary for a civilized society.

John (Fire) Lame Deer Sioux Lakota - 1903-1976

http://www.sapphyr.net/natam/quotes-nativeamerican.htm

fu7il3 3 years, 3 months ago

With all due respect to Lame Deer, to even imply that there were no delinquents, thieves, or that they didn't fight over territory and resources is ridiculous. It's a nice utopian idea. It makes a nice philosophical quote to place guilt on "white men." But it is totally against human nature and should raise anyone's B.S. detector.

Indian tribes fought each other over land and resources, stole horses, and kidnapped women and children. Lack of a physical prison didn't stop tribes from having their own forms of punishment, which a lot of people would consider to be more cruel and unusual than simply putting someone in jail.

Tribes had plenty of problems with each other long before white people showed up.

Just build the damn thing. I am sick of hearing about it. It was voted on, it passed, now just get it done.

Bouncer 3 years, 3 months ago

Yeah that would be sweet if no white man ever came to this land. But the fact is that it was inevitable. It could be that people with no beliefs came here and conquered this land. People who wouldn't even allow this online debate. As far as the Baker wetlands goes, Baker wetlands, yeah that's right, created by the white man. How sacred is that? For those of you who do not know, these wetlands are not natural. I don't know what makes them sacred except for the money folks tied to them have been holding out for. The SLT going through them could be the best thing that ever happened to them if people would work together to enhance it rather than fight. A raised highway could produce many viewing locations with mini-education centers that would produce funds and a friends of the wetland project. But never mind all that, let's just fight to fight and let everyone lose.

Thats_messed_up 3 years, 3 months ago

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Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

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Kontum1972 3 years, 3 months ago

why worry we are not going to be around...2012 is approaching ...."Mayan Prophecy"

Charles L Bloss Jr 3 years, 3 months ago

They will continue to be the laughing stock, as the liberals oppose any attempt to build anything that is obviously needed.

ljwhirled 3 years, 3 months ago

This isn't about liberal vs conservative.

Build the damn thing.

jjt 3 years, 3 months ago

Big W , Just so I know are the Brits for or against the SLT ;-))

For the rest of the debaters how far back does one go, a generation or so when the land was farmed, or more generations when the Native Americans were around or to even before that? I keep thinking about the Palestine Israel debate and how the Arabs feel about it.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 3 months ago

I think the standard should be how recent and easily correctable the injustice is.

The improper transfer of the Haskell Wetlands to Baker was done within the last 50 years. They could easily be returned with no real harm to anyone-- the highway could easily be routed south of the Wakarusa.

Ron Holzwarth 3 years, 3 months ago

Yes, we know all about the Palestine/Israel issue. Both sides have their narrative, of course.

Some of them are easily verifiable. Such as, Israel was a Jewish state 1,000 years before the Koran was even written, since it dates from only approximately 700 A.D.

The other one that is easily verifiable is that there are 22 Arab/Islamic nations, and only 1 Jewish one.

And, 1 is 1 too many for the Arab nations.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 3 months ago

Hey, there's 50 American states-- couldn't we just give one of them to the Indians, whose claims to this country are much more recent than those of the Israelis to Palestine?

Ron Holzwarth 3 years, 3 months ago

The Natives already have wide swaths of their own Nations here in Kansas.

As well as in other states also, of course.

Ron Holzwarth 3 years, 3 months ago

But, once in a while the Native Nations do get in the way of our roads!

ralphralph 3 years, 3 months ago

The immigrant Kaw must cede this land they wrongfully claim to "own".

dogsandcats 3 years, 3 months ago

If they made it a $191.3 million project instead, we could still have the Kansas Arts Commission.

holy_cow 3 years, 3 months ago

I thought the wetlands were man made??

heygary 3 years, 3 months ago

Talk about a shovel ready project! Build the blasted thing!

Ceallach 3 years, 3 months ago

haven't you heard - the shovel ready projects were not as shovel ready as the president thought they were

Phone_Man 3 years, 3 months ago

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Phone_Man 3 years, 3 months ago

Yup just as I figured. I was removed, all I did was speak the truth.

somedude20 3 years, 3 months ago

No person, man or opposite of man should ever have to argue for oral (unless they are gross)

brutus 3 years, 3 months ago

What land anywhere in the world was not occupied by someone else at one time? The past is past. Build the road. It was voted on and passed almost 15 years ago. The wetlands is manmade. I know people who quail hunted on grain fields that used to be there.

Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

since the children on here can't handle the truth of their history and seek to silence it like their forebearers did....I'll lay out a little history for the uneducated children...Caddoan people were here 1500 years ago. People like the Pawnee, Wichita, Yscani, and Tavoya. The Spanish called some of these people Quivirans. Non-Indian archaeologists acknowledge that the proto historic cultures known as the Smoky Hill, Republican Valley, and Nebraska cultures were the ancestors of the Pawnee. Middle Mississippian and Oneotan people were also in this area. These people are the ancestors of the Kaw, Osage, Omaha, Iowa, Otoe, and Missouria tribes. They were here at least 700 hundred years ago. Na Dene or Apache people were here in the 1400's and Comanches, Kiowas, Cheyennes, and Arapahoe tribes were in this area from the 1600's on. The Comanches and the Kiowa and Kiowa Apaches took over Caddoan territory in the early 1700's and pushed them to Oklahoma and Texas. Wichita, Kansas only has that name because the Wichita people fled Oklahoma during the US Civil War and stayed there before going back to Oklahoma. So enough with your half attempts at turning history on it's head to justify your desire to sanctify theft.

Idahowinds sounds a lot like the non-Indian people back in the 1950's like E Raymond Hall who gamed the federal system to acquire the wetlands nefariously in the first place. Someone whose game calling all ready acts as if they've gamed the system to steal the land this time like they did last time. So Idahowinds, do you have a judge in your pocket.. money talks right? like it always has right? better yet you could be like the Jerome Commission who forged the signatures of the Kiowa headmen in Indian Territory to push forth the allotment agenda of settlers who took over 2 million acres of land after the US Supreme Court in Lone Wolf V. Hitchcock ruled that forging names and abrogating treaties was a plenary power of a theiving country and it's US Congress. You should be so proud of the ability to steal and have a white court re affirm forgery and theft. You have no idea what has been stolen and yet you all act just like them.

hujiko 3 years, 3 months ago

blah blah yadda yadda everyone except for holy tuschie is a rascist.

xclusive85 3 years, 3 months ago

"The Comanches and the Kiowa and Kiowa Apaches took over Caddoan territory in the early 1700's and pushed them to Oklahoma and Texas."

Since you are giving a history lesson, how did they do this? Was this stealing land from a different tribe? Was it a war? Were there atrocities committed?

Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

not smarting than a kindergartner huh? the United States is 25th in educational level and first in confidence...how many confident adults with kindergarten intellect are there... many around here....kindergartners don't know their history...european immigrants get upset when someone confronts them with their history....english came here on a boat....so did christianity. I'm not a victim...I'm surrounded by kindergartners in adult bodies who remind me of peter griffin. If want a game of stubborness and wills... I can post history all day to the willfully ignorant...that's what some of you are right? No Kansas Nebraska Act no eastern Kansas...Miami, Peoria, Ottawa, Shawnee, Wyandotte, Delaware, Kaw, Osage, Otoe-Missouria, all still here. Their kids are still here in school. Me racist...naw...tomahawk chop racist...yeah, war whooping, yeah. The idiocy of people whose culture was built on the racist subjugation of lands and labor calling the surviving descendants of your idiocy racist... on what planet...in which universe? smarter than a kindergartner...you all... naw....

chiefsman1966 3 years, 3 months ago

They have all wasted the money that they could have used to build it south of the wakarusa river. I know that the land was crop land back in the day, the wetlands are MANMADE NOT nature made like you all are fighting over. It was passed yours ago there for should be done and they should be getting ready to resurface the road instead.

Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

my what big sarcasm you have snap, crackle and pop....

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

Thuscie, I'm sure that if you quoted your theoretical Indian oral history all day long that someone out there would be impressed. But for the vast majority it reaffirms what we already knew - you are a clueless & bitter twit !! I don't know what your adolescence was like but somehow you must have been wearing your head band too tight 'cuz it affected your mental processes. The history that you quote has absolutely nothing to do with the completion of K-10 on the south side of Lawrence. On the other topic - no I do not have a lawyer in my pocket and I did not pay any of them off. How ludicrous! What I do have is the ability to objectively read the briefs on both sides and understand that NEPA does not require KDOT and FHWA to make any particular decision, it only requires them to look at several possible routes, study a long list of aspects of both routes, and make a determination as to which one meets their criteria the best - that's what they did. Just because there are those that didn't like the outcome does not make it illegal or inappropriate by legal standards. It really does not take a rocket scientist or an attorney to understand that.

Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

I've seen the 1950's documents concerning the wetlands. I don't have to call somebody a twit. Your dismissal of the indigenous history and cultural aspects of the HASKELL wetlands is typical for a non Indian. It was typical for Paul Brockington. You don't care about indigenous history because your whole goal is a means to an end. The remains in the wetlands aren't people to you. They're a roadblock for superficial and dismissive people who seek to profit instead of preserve which flies in the faces of ethics when it comes to science. One of the many reasons for the lawsuits is the repeated dismissal of indigenous history. In case you're oblivious, Idaho is a Shoshonean word so stop using it if you don't want to respect people. You know if you're forced by the courts to acknowledge our history...you're done. That's why Brockington's report was total garbage. He didn't want to find anything just like you and the rest of these genius posters don't want to hear anything. You have no concept of history. You have no history except conquest and theft by any means possible. You don't know this land or have any respect for it. For years I had to hear the whole manmade wetlands bit without regard to the type of soil whose hydrology indicated wetlands from Mr. Boyd. I'm at ECM a year ago and he acknowledges and corrects a person in the audience indicating that the area was originally wetlands and backing away from the whole man created wetlands bit. What did he do? get a consicence??? He sure gave these local genuises hyperbole to run with for years of denial. Your denial of our history makes that road a go in your short term historical memories. Have you read Boarding School Seasons By Ojibwe writer Brenda Child? Have you read Education for Extinction by David Wallace Adams? Have you read They Call it Prairie Light about the Chilocco Indian School Experience which mirrored Haskell's? I have an 88 year old Munsee woman in Pomona, Kansas, who was taken by compulsory means away from her parents from age 9 to age 17 to Genoa, Nebraska, Wyandotte, Oklahoma, and Haskell. Haskell was bad enough she went awol to get back to Ottawa, Kansas. When kids went awol the government authorities chased them like dogs and paid people bounties to return them to Haskell like prisoners at a concentration camp. What you all are doing is the equivilent of partitioning a historical place of trauma for indigenous peoples for profit. Want to buy a piece of Auchwitz to exploit??? this is no exageration. Maybe if Paul Brockington would've spoken to more Indians he would've given a more accurate picture but that's not something that conceited non Indian academics do is it? After all who needs to speak to real people...not academics who know it all? My historical passion comes from combatting your ignorance...

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

Boy, Tuschie, you really stepped in it this time! Brockington may not have written what you wanted but it wasn't from the lack of trying. He was what, the third or fourth anthropologist that KDOT had hired for the SLT research? From what I heard he was extremely diligent in pursuing any evidence that indicated past use of the Haskell Farm. The problem that he had was that few American Indians were willing to speak to him and the ones that did, said they knew nothing about the claims that you, Chuck Haines, Dan WIldcat, Stan Roth, and Mike Caron have made. Was that their plan? If I don't help him, he and this road will go away? Probably not. Beyond some of the faculty, staff, and a couple of other clinger-ons like yourself, this was all a nice story made up to stop whitie from building a road.

It is interesting that you are offended by being called a twit but EVERYONE else is stupid and racist. You start off your rant about some document about the wetlands for the 1950's. What are you talking about? I was asking if you had even looked at the court briefs. I was referring to the current case in 10th Circuit Court of Appeals. I am assuming no, since you didn't respond to that. That basically means you have no idea what you are talking about in regard to legal matters. Certainly not about legal ownership of the Baker Wetlands, which you continue to claim was stolen. That is kind of a big issue of "Seller's Remorse" don't you think?

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

Your statement about Dr. Boyd at ECM makes no sense. In class we used to go over the soil maps, and this was years ago. We all understood that nearly the entire section was Wabash soil, which are typical wetland soils. Who do you suppose came up with the statement that the Wakarusa River valley in Douglas County contained nearly 18,000 acres of wetlands before it was drained and cultivated? That was Dr. Boyd and his class, not Mike Caron and certainly not you. Dr. Boyd NEVER claimed that the Baker Wetlands or the Haskell Wetlands or the Haskell Bottoms or the Haskell/Baker Wetlands or the Wakarusa Wetlands (or whatever semantics games you want to play) were man made wetlands. The fact that YOU think he called them man-made is an indication that you can't keep your facts straight. And that is why no one listens to you or believes what you say about American Indian history - you can't seem to keep the facts straight. That is always the problem with oral history. What Dr. Boyd has repeatedly said is that the Baker Wetlands were effectively drained for many years which eliminated most of the wetlands on the property (the critical component being the vegetation). The soil never changed or went anywhere. It was the same wetland soil before, during, and after it was cultivated - but that does not make it a wetland. All cultivation on the Baker Wetlands stopped in the early 1980's. In the early and mid-1990's the drainage system was reversed and the area began to restore itself back to wetlands. That means that native wetland vegetation returned to most of the area. That does not make them man-made. IF that was the case, then there are no "natural" wetlands in Kansas, they are all man made.

Richard Heckler 3 years, 3 months ago

"I just wanted to know that if the oral arguments fail before the 3 Judges does that mean the legals are done and the SLT goes ahead or can there still be more legal challenges?"

Yes there can be more legal challenges. The real estate/Chamber of Commerce/developer industry want this $300 million pork barrel project badly. This is the group that somehow got KDOT to remove the original route. These are the faces that show up at the hearings. These are the faces that persist in wasting tax dollars. The original bypass could have been done 20-30 years ago.

In 1971 the State Highway Commission recommended a bypass for Lawrence to be built south of the Wakarusa river. The bypass of course is the more sensible and practica approachl for future highway demands. Douglas County needs a bypass not a tax dollar moneyhole trafficway.

This area may well be the lowest point in Douglas County which is why water flows here and is what makes the area a wetlands. The wetlands has been there for hundreds of years in spite of failed attempts to farm it. Of course the Haskell/Baker has substantial water holding capacity. How much tax dollar sense does it make to drain it and spend millions in flood control that may not work? Does anyone want this water in their backyard? Man made flood controls are famous for failing.

How many want a ton of 18 wheelers on K-10? That is dumb.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

Merrill, What is dumb is your dogged attempt to say that the first idea is the only idea! Yeah, somebody made a proposal in the 1970's to build a bypass south of the river. It never gained any traction, it was further south than the 42nd street alignment. They didn't pursue it further. It isn't going to happen there, no matter how many times you tell us about it.

Why would you think that the Baker Wetlands are the lowest spot in Douglas County. Does that really make sense to you? If that were true why does water flow east from there in the Wakarusa River. And where does the Wakarusa River flow? Probably not up-hill. It is flowing to towards the lowest point in Douglas County which would be the Kansas River at Eudora. If you check the Baker Wetlands on Google Earth you will find an elevation of about 820 to 816 ft above sea level. If you follow the Kansas River a ways east of Eudora where it leaves Douglas County you will find around 770-775 ft above sea level. That is the lowest place in Douglas County. The problem with your posts, Merrill, is that they are theories made up in your mind - they aren't facts.

To say that the Baker Wetlands was a failed attempt at draining a wetlands is bogus. It was drained just fine in 1920 and that lasted for 40 years. But have you forgotten that BIA quit farming it in 1934. They quit maintaining the drainage system in 1934 or earlier. So it wasn't a failed attempt, it was a neglected attempt. The ground to the east of Haskell is farmed every year and it is lower than the Baker Wetlands. So how does that work? It is not about failed attempts, it is about land use. The Baker property are wetlands again because Dr. Boyd manipulated the drainage structures to hold water instead of draining water.

Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

in the spirit of truth without violating tos, here's the ugly truth, for the first 125 years the BIA existed, it was ran by white people. I can name Ely Samuel Parker, Seneca, Robert Bennett, and one other Indian that ran the BIA between 1824 and 1970. The other Indian's name was Louis Bruce. The white people for years made sweetheart deals with their friends usually at the behest of theiving politicians. You all got an illegal sweetheart deal that was ciricumvented around the Federal Indian School Surplus lands Act. I know it, other Indians know it, you run from it. Indian rings of defrauding Indians have existed from the word go. The Centropolis Ring existed near Baldwin to steal from the Sac and Foxes now in Oklahoma due to the theft. You all steal if you find the right politicians and you did. The Cobell judgement of $3.2 billion that just happened is a larger example of your behavior. You learn something...maybe you stop talking..oh well.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

Tuschie - have you ever heard the AA saying: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change, courage to change those things I can, and wisdom to know the difference."
Here's one from Mark Twain that seems appropriate for you: "It is better to keep your mouth shut and look stupid than to open it and remove all doubt." Maybe you will read these and stop blabbering? Unlikely or we wouldn't see you continually ranting on about things you can not change and exposing your ignorance about how white or Indian society works.

Richard Heckler 3 years, 3 months ago

"This area may well be the lowest point in Douglas County which is why water flows here and is what makes the area a wetlands."

Notice my statement said "may be the lowest point. The fact of the matter there is some belief that these wetlands could be about 600,000 years old created by glacier activity.

This area definitely holds water like a wetlands,grows foliage like a wetlands,attracts wildlife like a wetlands and it smells wonderfully like a wetlands.

Again how much tax dollar sense does it make to drain the wetlands and spend millions in flood control that may not work? No sense whatsoever.

Does anyone want this water in their backyard?

Man made flood controls are famous for failing. Leave this natural water storage unit alone. It is the fiscal responsible choice to support.

How much tax dollar sense does it make to support an expensive pork barrel project for the high rollin real estate executives of Lawrence,Kansas? No tax dollar sense whatsoever.

Roads can be built anywhere why build it through a wetlands? No logical reason whatsoever.

Why not do the I-70 connectors? KDOT knows of this concept. It could pay for itself by way of tolls and make additional use of I-70 = a fiscal conservative point of view.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

Sorry Richard, you are wrong again. Not only are your elevations off but now your historical geology is. I may be wrong but I believe the ONLY glaciers that made it to Kansas were only 10,000 years ago - certainly not 600,000 years. It is unfortunate that you have not had the opportunity to actually read anything about why the Corps, KDOT, FHWA, and Baker chose 32nd street over 42nd street and how, ironically, putting the SLT through Baker's property will end up benefiting the wetlands rather than building it south of the river. I've explained it before and you either didn't read it, didn't understand it, or just didn't believe you could be wrong after all these years. Doesn't really matter anyway, does it. K-10 will be completed on 32nd st this time whether you chose to accept it or not.

Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

it's only blabbering to people like you who are tone deaf to the sins of omission and history. History is relevant when clueless people like you repeat it. You use the AA nonsense to avoid the reality of the actions you support. I'll accept that you're tone deaf to the history of land acquisition by nefarious means that led to the creation of Kansas. I'll accept that you know nothing about how church denominations acquired lands in this state and act as if nothing happened. I accept that you like other non Native scientists have a problem with Indians that stand in your way. That's what I'll accept.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

Tuschie says "You use the AA nonsense to avoid the reality of the actions you support." You are correct, Mike. I, personally, do not have the ability to change the preferred alignment of the SLT, and I accept that. You do not either but apparently do not have the wisdom to know that? Baker University and the younger Dr. Boyd did, however, recognize an opportunity to improve the wetlands for wildlife as well as future generations. Generations that will look back on opponents like you and Mike Caron and wonder why compromise wasn't in your cultural vocabulary. Certainly you are aware that the SLT will remove less than 10% of the Baker Wetlands and the mitigation will restore 380 acres, thereby increasing the acreage more than 56%. Surely you are aware that the visitor center will educate thousands of kids a year about the value of wetlands. Perhaps, Baker will even include information about the sacreness of the Baker Wetlands to a few American Indians? I somehow doubt that you will be high on Dr. Boyd's consultant list. Paul Brockington might be though. But go ahead and put your spin on this - why is the mitigation worse than 4 lane roads on 3 sides and 10x as much noise drifting to the Medicine Wheel? Please, open your mouth and remove all doubt...

Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

when you hit the bones of the children who were dumped in that area 100 or so years ago and your project is stopped what will you do? why don't you call the Washington Department of Transportation and ask them what it feels like to walk away $43 million in the hole causing the State of Washington to pay the Lower Elwha Klallam Tribe $6 million and the donation of 8 acres of land to rebury the 400 or so ancestors of the Klallam people who were desecreted when the WADOT ignored pleas much as you have and hit grave after grave after grave. IN 1920, a warehouse builder on the shore of Puget Sound did a Poltergeist...they bulldozed an ancient Klallam village on the surface and left the graves to be covered by a warehouse. None of the area had any appearance of what it once was. WADOT wanted to build a pontoon launching site because the pontoons were used to support bridges in Lake Washington. All anyone heard was jobs jobs jobs, and of course screw the Indians...sound familiar? Lynda V. Mapes, a reporter for the Seattle Post Intelligencer wrote a book called Breaking Ground that maybe you should read. I've spoken to her previously about this project and the similarities with the Tse-Whit-Zen village WADOT desecreted. You won't learn until you're allowed to totally screw up will you? and who will pay for your screw ups, indigenous people and the State of Kansas as a defendant. No self respecting Native person would consult with a destructive sellout anyway. You all tend to hire your own to make sure your version of the truth is told. That's how it's always been....the nahollo way.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

Tuschie, You really can't have it both ways but yet you try and try. You say we should listen to the past, learn about history. Then when someone like Brockington goes out to "learn the truth" as you say - no one will speak up and you explain it away as "No self respecting Native person would consult with a destructive sellout anyway." Not much to listen to or learn from is there? The true irony is that he had plenty of people tell him they knew nothing about any burials out there. Hmmmm? Where else you are clueless in this process is that there are no graves - there is no oral history to support it nor any written history. The boarding school administrators may have been able to cover up 1 or 2, maybe even 10 deaths that were discarded in the wetlands but then the big unanswered question is why put them in the wetlands - They had a cemetery! But Chuck doesn't claim 1-2 or even 10, he claims between 400 and 500 children burials. Are you really so gullible to believe that? Use some common sense! There is a much more rational explanation but why should we expect Mike Ford to be rational? Your third mistake is to believe that KDOT is stupid enough to do any excavation and risk exposing these fathom graves, even if they existed. There will be no excavation within section 18. Therefore, no burial exposure - you lose on all three counts. So again, you can quote as much irrelevant history as you want - it only proves Mark Twain was correct - you just had to open your mouth and remove all doubt!!!

Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

let's see where do I start....indigenous children died by the hundreds if not the thousands at white ran BIA boarding/indoctrination schools. cemeteries at Carlisle, PA...Toledo Sanitarium in Iowa near the Meskwaki settlement, Genoa Pawnee School in Nebraska, pretty much throughout the whole BIA school system. Bad or no medical care, bad food, cramped quarters, no going home allowed and being held like a government prisoner, beaten and fed soap for speaking tribal languages, molestation, suppression of indigenous culture as ordered by federal decree in 1886, driven to areas like the edge of the Chilocco school near Ark City, Kansas, in Indian Territory, and driven to the wetlands to practice indigenous beliefs that christian overseers and the federal government prohibted. The very areas the sellout profiteers want to pave. Can I pave through your ancestor's cemetery? can I desecrate their place of worship? can I treat them as less than human much as Nazis did Jewish people and their faith? I actually drove by the wetlands that Saturday when Baker had kids? from Denver do this half baked grave search. Bones are out there. I'll use an analogy I once used in a Lawrencian article I wrote. Here, there are the scattered bones of indigenous children in a wetlands area dumped by BIA officials who were too lazy to contact the parents of these kids who were purposely taken thousands of miles away to break the cohesion of tribal connections. Munsee children from Pomona, Kansas, were taken to Flandreau, South Dakota...why? to break up culture and Americanize them. When my father walked the WW I battlefields around Ypres, Belgium, where Baker students like Russell Wilson died, whole fields were fenced off from entry out of respect for the dead. The French authorities planted trees to cover up the huge cannon craters and trenches and left gun stocks, grenades, shells, and skeletal remains in situ. Why do Europeans have more respect for their dead that you all? I ask this question constantly. It couldn't be that Indians are seen as less than human by the populace...scientists digging up graves to the point that NAGPRA had to be enacted in 1990...when will you get it? probably never.. and who will pay? indigenous people and the animals will....what wonderful scientists you are...exploiting in the name of purchased science...awesome....

BigRedW 3 years, 3 months ago

good one. "purchase science". so do you have any actual facts that there are buried children in the Baker Wetlands, or is it just a good story to try and stop the road. if there are children buried, why has no one ever stepped forward and show the right people where they are and stop the road? instead you just shoot your mouth off about facts of other areas and other BIA run schools. And a battlefield in France? Oh and by the way, KDOT is not going to unearth any graves because they are FILLING in the Baker Wetlands areas. and by definition they don't dig into the ground to do that. take your "purchased facts" and exploit another audience that will believe what you say, because i don't think anyone does. you enjoy your week though.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

I guess I would rather have "purchased science" than no science. You only know what you have heard and read about...elsewhere. There are no stories of American Indian children being "dumped" in the Haskell/Baker Wetlands, are there? You really have never actually heard any stories (let alone facts) about it happening at Haskell, have you? Comparing the Baker Wetlands to a battlefield in France is pretty good. First of all in the battlefield in France (or elsewhere) there is actual physical evidence. People that fought there could come back and look and point out locations etc. No such thing at Haskell. When do you suppose all of these children you claimed were dumped in the wetlands were dumped there? 1850's? 1880's? 1910's? 1930's? When? Give me a date. The entire area was plowed at one time except for two small plots. If you don't believe that you can look at Google and several other sources on line and see the plow lines...or is that too much science for you? I would imagine that The cultivated fields were plowed at least once every year. Not very deep at first, but once modern tractors were used it was probably plowed 18-24", deeper than any lazy government grave digger would have dug, right. Or if they were buried by other indian children (without shovels) how deep would they be buried? So, unless they are buried on a levee or the river bank, or in one of the virgin wetland tracts, the graves have all been plowed up years ago. But you say "dumped" which would imply no burial at all. Either way their remains have been exposed and decomposed. Skeletal remains on the surface don't remain long. From my own experience deer skeletons (something large enough to see well) are gone within a year. Thru weathering and mice chewing on them. So my point is - it is not like other locations where physical evidence is ever likely to "surface" - figuratively or literally! Their spirits could be there but I don't pretend to have any ability to imagine that. You say that the bodies were dumped there because "BIA officials who were too lazy to contact the parents of these kids". Why would that be? There is a cemetery. Why not bury them there? The government agents had nothing to hide. There was no reason to not bury them. If they literally dumped them there without burial, then I think someone would have noticed back then...even just one child! There would be stories somewhere in someone's diary or reports. You really can't be that gullible, can you?

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

You say the children were driven to the wetlands to practice their religions. But that doesn't mean they went there to bury themselves, does it. Was it the government agents that "dumped" all these kids or did the other students do it. Mike Caron has made up stories about the kids burying locks of hair or a hat in the "wetlands" to release their spirits. Even he does not go so far as to claim the students buried their own in the "wetlands". Also, you need to realize that once beyond the campus a few hundred yards they would have been pretty concealed. They would not have had to go 1 1/2 miles to the river to get away. Where the Medicine Wheel is today was probably far enough back then.
The road is going to be built on a fairly narrow strip of land 1/2 mile from the campus - why is that the very spot that the children came to or were buried at? Could it be that it makes a better story? You simply try to make everything out to be victims vs. conquerers. You have no answers, do you? Nor do you try to get any. You read stories about other places, much written by the very white people you don't trust. But if their version fits into your story of the victims, then it must be true. Right? Over 90% of the Baker Wetlands will be intact after the road is built. A sane and rational person might focus on that rather than the 10% that will be destroyed. This isn't about the truth is it. It is simply a vehicle for you to spout off your warped perspective of what you perceive was reality. I base my life on science. I don't go around reading about stuff that happened elsewhere and then imagine that it must have happened here as well...because it fits into my story. You get yourself worked up over "things you can not control". And, unfortunately for the rest of us, you do not have the wisdom to know that.

Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

man, I must really have annoyed you for you to write that much. The reason I bring up WW I battlefields in France is to draw a comparison between the thoughtfulness and repsect those people have for their dead soldiers enough to fence it off and not use it regardless of the land's economic value. Here, you guys are out and out capitalists who could care less..build it already... you just proved my point how this is not about empathy or a sense of history of a concept of respect for many cultures you walked on to be on this continent at all. In fact you rebutted me in such a way that you proved you 're nothing but a cold heartless scientist who doesn't relate to anything outside of science. You answered in such a nahollo way. I could see you accidently uncovering the burial of an indigenous person and having no regard for who they were. You'd go into some scientific speak without regard for who the person was. I'd like to insert you into the role of the Surgeon General of the United States who in 1869 directed US Cavalry soldiers to dig up the graves of murdered Pawnee warriors who were scouts for the US military against the Lakota people after they were mistakenly slain by settlers near Fort Hays. The surgeon wanted the Pawnee skulls for study to back up the whole racist Phreneology or Eugenics science movement of that time. Who cares who these Pawnee men are? takes their skulls for study so that we can justify stealing their lands and treating them as less than human. That was the attitude of white america back then. Ironically, the tragedies we assert happened during the same period of justified racism by frontier america between 1872 and 1900. It's easy to dump the deceased if you view them as less than human. You don't sound much more respectful with me now...

Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

better yet as I was just walking though the Baker campus I noticed the statue at the front of the Baker library memorializing the late Art History Professor Alice Ann Callahan, who by the way was an enrolled Osage tribal citizen and a professor at Baker when I was there 23 years ago. She wrote a book on the ceremonial dance of her Wa zha zhi people about the In' Lon Ska dance that was published by the University of Oklahoma that I own. In the book's forward she talks about how missionaries and boarding schools did damage to her people and how the Wa zha zhi or Osage people had to persevere and survive what the missionaries did to tribal culture in boarding schools. Isn't it a travesty that the college she taught at for so many years disregards this history and treats it as a roadblock to progress acting no different than the thieves of the 19th century who worked at boarding schools to disconnect the tribal students from their culture. And what are you doing here? also working to destroy that memory....how nahollo of you...

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

So let's recap - I'm a cold, heartless scientist because I don't think that Dr. Boyd or Baker should back away from the opportunity that they have been given. To me it is fact vs. fiction. I don't know where Dr. Boyd or Dr. Long are on this, I can only speak for myself. The facts seem to be that you have a belief without facts and the rest of the world is racist and working with the devil because they don't respect your beliefs. But also very telling in this "dialog" is that you seem incapable of answering any of my questions. It is your way and no highway...no compromises, only what you want. I respect your right to hold what ever beliefs you want. That does not mean that I accept or believe what you believe and therefore choose not to act on your beliefs, even if I had the ability to. Just because there may be some evidence that some of these things happened elsewhere does not mean they happened at Haskell - without evidence, it is just conjecture. I don't believe that KDOT needs to reroute the SLT based on your, and a handful of other suspects, conjectures and fictional tales.

Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

naw...you just don't acknowledge any history that stands in the way of your manipulating of land as some people have done since they landed here.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

History vs. fiction...that is the issue that you can't seem to understand. If there are no facts at hand then it really isn't history except in your mind and as a scientist I don't accept that. It is the same as you always saying there is no wildlife in the restoration area and that it is a total failure. Everyone else, however, can see there is wildlife there and can easily document it with surveys and photographs. You did not want to see wildlife so in your "historical framework", the restoration was a failure. Dr. Boyd on the other hand can probably show you surveys and photos of the plants and animals that have been made that demonstrate that the restoration has been an outstanding success. So which is "correct" your beliefs or the scientific facts? No evidence, no graves. All speculation on your part.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 3 months ago

Oh, get over yourself. You don't care about "facts" or "beliefs." You care about rationales to get what you want, which is to pave over the Haskell Wetlands, even though there are viable alternatives.

This does beg the question of why you want to do this so badly.

My own theory is that you hate the idea of anybody but the movers and shaker of the world to have any say in such decisions.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

But Bozo, the definition of "mover and shaker" is the people that get things done. You apparently think of them as"the man" or "the authority figure" and you can't stand to have majority rule. You must be a paranoid individual to always come back to "why you want to do this so badly." Why is it that I have to have a motive to be defending what has taken place in the decision making process? I believe it should happen for a number of reason which I have outlined in the past. I don't think anyone in this process has any desire to pave the Haskell Wetlands. Isn't the "Haskell Wetlands" from the north canal to the north, on either side of 31st Street? I thought the 32nd St alignment was about 200 ft south of the Haskell Wetlands.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 3 years, 3 months ago

"I don't think anyone in this process has any desire to pave the Haskell Wetlands."

Liar.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

I guess you don't know the difference between the "Haskell Wetlands" and "Baker Wetlands". That must be why you promote "Wakarusa Wetlands" cuz its too difficult for you to keep it all straight?

Idiot.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

A simpler way to respond to you is that I do acknowledge the history of Haskell's existence and the persecution of the American Indians by the government to indoctrinate them into white man's culture. What I don't acknowledge is 400-500 unmarked graves. You can't prove they are there any more than I can prove they aren't and therefore I do not accept YOUR version of history.

Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

firstly, I've seen migratory geese out there...whoopeee...these birds will land at city poop ponds which says nothing of the quality of artificial wetlands. You have to understand I grew up on the Little River/Ouachita River basin north of Catehoula lake. I also grew up on wetlands along the Calcasieu and English Bayou waterways. My parents took me to Hackberry and Cameron, LA, as a child. We went through the Atchafalaya Basin on a regular basis going to family in Pascagoula, Mississippi, which also had wetlands north towards the Leaf and Chickasawhay Rivers. I was taken to Avery Island aka Tabasco Island through all kinds of Bayou and wetlands. I know wetlands because I grew up near them and fished and hunted starting at seven years of age. Where I first lived at Jonesville we had a river the size of the Kansas River called the Little River in my backyard across the levee. It was nothing to see a four or five foot gar near our neighbor's houseboat. I joke with my wife that I grew up in Brazil. Your wetlands don't impress me. The real ones across the road remind me of my childhood where the land ended and the boats ruled. It was so much like Swamp People on A & E or History channel that they taught me Cajun French in 2nd grade which I still remember in Moss Bluff, LA. I know real wetlands...you may impress an Indian railroading politician on a photo op but I lived going through real ones... sorry...

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

Your delusional state is exposed. What have you seen at the "original wetlands" that is not at the restoration wetlands? Could it be the lack of trees? There have been more species of waterfowl, shorebirds, and waders at the restored wetlands than have occurred in the original wetlands and that is only in the first three years. What you are describing in LA are riverine wetlands. They are significantly different from a wet meadow. Of course you probably don't know what a wet meadow is but that is HISTORICALLY what would have been in Douglas Co, not what you are describing for LA. Your sterotype of what a wetland is "supposed to be" does not impress me either.

Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

another thing you should understand about history...the BIA was ran by white people to profit from the theft of Indians. The BIA would license traders as part of the trade and intercourse laws from the early 19th century. Local example number one...Peter Robideaux was a licensed trader who allowed insane amounts of purchase credit to the Sac and Fox people who are now in Stroud, Oklahoma. Once the first purchase credit was done and the annuity monies weren't enough... the traders would ransom treaties and force land cessions to get payment and on top of that they would give the Indians as little as possible so that they could flip the land and make profit. The railroads were even worse. This was done hundreds of times in the 18th, 19th and even 20th century. Indian fraud rings which Mr. Robideaux was part of stole from tribes and the US government. What you benefitted from with the acquisition of the wetlands falls in line with the thefts of the past. Read the End of Indian Kansas 1854-1871 by Craig Miner and William Unrau and maybe gain a conscience and have some sense of embarrassment as your actions are no different.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

Tuschie - can you change what has happened in the past? Do you really believe that if you whine long enough that Baker will deed the land to HINU? Do you really believe that this road is not going to be built through the Baker Wetlands? How long does your denial continue? Do you realize that it is not healthy to harbor the level of hostilities you have for people in general? Even though you claim to only focus on white man I can't imagine that it doesn't impact how you react to EVERYONE? Again I ask - which is worse? Build the SLT on 32nd St with 12 ft noise walls, expanded "fake wetlands", visitor center etc. OR build it south of the river or not at all and have 4 lane roads on three sides of the wetlands and 10x as much noise along 31st street? Can you actually visualize the outcome of not building the road on 32nd and keeping the status quo?

Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

duh, wet meadows and kettle wetlands exist over the upper midwest and northern plains either near rivers or left over by big stones pushed south by glaciers back then. I believe the BIA will probably be sued for illegally ceding away the land and it will be returned with you all having no say in it for receiving stolen goods and profitting from them as most land thefts in Kansas have done for the receivers.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

Congratulations! You've heard of a kettle wetland. And so how does that apply to the Baker Wetlands? I'm confused...

"I believe the BIA will probably be sued for illegally ceding away the land..." You and Bozo! Both of you have very active imaginations. I thought you went to law school long enough to learn something about statue of limitations and the difficulty of winning a case against the federal government. The time to sue BIA would have been within the 30 years of the quit claim deed, not after the deed had been finalized. You would also have to find malice on the part of BIA. Something that would be difficult to do when most of the participants are deceased! The fact is that the government had no use for the land at that time. It was perfectly free to transfer to HEW and what HEW did with it was not dictated by the laws at the time.

I would like to commend you on your rather thorough answers to my questions. Were they too difficult or is it too difficult for you to carry more than one train of thought? Oops, another question to go unanswered.

Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

you're the person that insinuated I didn't know about wetlands so that's why you got the kettle answer....anyway artificial wetlands don't cut it....furthermore after actually meeting with a tribal official in Topeka today on an issue not related to the SLT I got the feeling from them that you all have the fix on in the courts. Don't take the chicken off the eggs.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

I understand "Don't take the chicken off the eggs" but have no idea what "you all have the fix on in the courts" means. It does tell me that you really have no idea what the case is about. The case has NOTHING to do with indian issues. It has everything to do with NEPA and KDOT and FHWA did everything right.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

There you go patting yourself on the back about pretending to know what a kettle wetland is and thinking that has some relationship to wet meadows...and then you "open your mouth and removed all doubt" by saying "...anyway artificial wetlands don't cut it..."

That's hilarious! You apparently don't even understand that the original Baker Wetlands in Sec. 18 are part of the same floodplain as the newly restored ones in Sec. 13 to the west. Both have been restored. Both were cultivated - the original ones up until 1982 and the ones west of Louisiana up until 2008. Both have been restored. Do you actually understand that? Neither are artificial. I don't even know what an artificial wetland would be unless it was lined with plastic, rubber, or concrete. If you think the restoration site that Dr. Boyd is working on is artificial then the original wetlands are also artificial. You are like a 6 year old. You can't admit that maybe the younger Dr. Boyd knows what he's doing, can you.

Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

naw, because I have family that knew Dr. Ivan Boyd and wonders aloud what in the world the younger Boyd is thinking and doing currently. I am related through marriage to a man who trained Roger Boyd. His name is Marvin Schwilling. He passed away a couple of years ago and is held in such reverence that they built a statue of him at Cheyenne Bottoms. I don't claim to know anything other than this but who in their right mind would ignore and denigrate indigenous concerns in that area out of one side of their mouth and flip the whole other direction at other times? I've been consistent the whole time. What gives? I know what a kettle wetland is...I read about them as a teenager old in a National Geographic article on wetlands and that article showed wetlands in Maryland being destroyed. It showed wetlands in Illinois and North Dakota. If scientists can fix destroyed wetlands fine....but they shouldn't sellout to the highest bidder and screw minorities over in the process. My feelings about those wetlands are probably based on a negative reaction to one's arrogance than the wetlands themselves. Oh well....

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

The "oh well..." is telling. It once again tells us that you really have little concern about the original or restored wetlands as an ecosystem - it is only about the perceived human issues about this land. Years ago Dr. Boyd indicated in class that it was much more important to protect the habitat than the people - past or future. The problem we have is too many people and not enough wetlands (or other wild habitats). Do you really think Jayhawk Audubon, Sierra CLub, and KU Environs care about the Haskell issues out there? They are fighting the road to protect the habitat not the people history. Unfortunately, those people have never really understood about wetland restoration and that the area where the SLT will be built is a recently restored wetlands. You on the other hand, couldn't care less anyway!

I will agree - you have been consistent the "whole time". But I'm not sure that I would brag about having a closed mind. Just because you are consistent, doesn't mean you are correct!

Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

I have as much regard for the ecosystem as you do for indigenous people....if you think I have no regard for the land then you have no regard for the indigenous people whom members of your race have gone out of their way to dismantle the identity, the languages, and the religious beliefs of said cultures. You accuse me of having no regard for the capability of your environmental land work while you and your boss if that's who he is to you have made it publically apparent that you don't care at all about the indigenous people that your government stole the land from by making rules that someone back then figured out how to obsfucate and supposedly cover their tracks. One hand allowed Baker to obtain land while the other hand has honed it's thieving skills over two centuries. It reminds of the part of that movie Taken where the father connects the dots of corruption and figures out his French counterpart looked the other way while his daughter was kidnapped and sold to a sultan. The French counterpart says his concerns are x and y, and he doesn't have to know what goes on otherwise. And yet this man who looked the other way while his friend's daughter was sold into sexual slavery was just as guilty because he accepted the kickbacks that allowed the kidnappers to function within the system in the first place. Translated...you all accepted stolen property. You try to be the x and y and think you can walk clean without the history of religious institutions and theft of lands in the creation of the State of Kansas in the 19th century. You don't care how it was done....you just want your way to profit from history that you want to bury your head in the sand over...sorry I haven't let you do that... As for the environmental people aligned with tribal concerns pushing the environment.. I blame your culture and it's legal system and lack of respect for minorities for that. They respect the environment as we do. Your court system pays more attention to environmental concerns than they do minority concerns...that's not the Sierra Club's or any of the other groups faults....that's your fault...it's your legal system right? At the end of the day they dislike your plans as much as others do and that's all that matters. You tried the divide and conquer thing and all it did was make you all answer more for the shortcomings of the culture you support. I guess the crazy question is.....how in the world is a deal with the devil made without selling the farm so to speak? no one is neville chamberlain here are they?

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

Professor Boyd was a mentor and boss at one time but not currently. You are, and I am sure will be forever, hung up on the theory that the land was stolen. Part of the problem is that you tend to move the target so that no one can respond to your claims. At one time the theft is from the Kaw and then next you are talking about theft from Haskell. So when did the “theft” actually occur – 1854, 1956, or 1968? Or is there some other date you have in mind?

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

You talk about offenses to minorities quite frequently. How do you justify what your own people are doing to the descendants of slaves that have been members of your tribe? Isn’t your own tribe guilty of what you accuse white people of doing?

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

You claim that somehow this agreement between Baker and KDOT is a pact with the devil. This of course, is strictly your opinion. What is the end result? The environment is enhanced, biodiversity increases and wetland acreage is increased. I feel sorry for you that you can’t see beyond your own self-righteous pride to see that the environment will end up being better in the long run. To you it is all about “winning one for the Indian”. Can’t you see that this is a win for Native Americans? An enlarged and improved wetland on both campuses will occur because of the stand that you and others at HINU have made. You should be congratulating yourselves instead of having such a pity party. If, ten years from now, Haines, Wildcat, and Caron are still spewing hatred towards Baker University and Dr. Boyd, it is because of a spiteful, personal grudge instead of acceptance that not all that much has changed for the worse.

Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

actually if you knew the history which you don't...you'd know that this area roughly from Ft. Scott north to Nebraska and from Kansas City to Manhattan was ceded lands that were coerced away by Indian Commissioner Manypenny after the passage of the Kansas-Nebraska Act in 1854. The 1956 dater deals with all of the E Raymond Hall stuff and the 1968 date deals with the initial claim transfer of the land. Why did I have to explain this to you? Furthermore... my ancestors didn't go to Oklahoma...they're still in the area on the MS/AL border where the European side was in 1800 and the Choctaw/Biloxi side was for thousands of years. It's nice that people finally know Indian Territory history but with the exception of people like Greenwood LeFlore and many of the Cherokees and some of the Chickasaws prior to removal, the slavery issue was larger in Indian Territory. Some of my European ancestors did own slaves as I discovered in the 1700's in VA and NC, but these were families on the edge of my family tree. Most of my people were too poor to own slaves. I have a conscience and apologized to people I knew for what little good it did. This isn't about winning one for the Indians...that a white misnomer because someone doesn't have connection to the land enough in the first place. That pity ploy you use is misplaced, but keep using it. It's as wrong as many of the other things you've said.

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

You did not have to explain the dates. I already knew the events. Why else would I pick those dates? Duh!

You continue to do what you always do. You don't even attempt to answer my questions. Why is that? Can't stay focused? Can't understand the questions? Or you just simply don't have any answers - just complaints and whining?

MarcoPogo 3 years, 3 months ago

This is where Tuschie starts typing things in Choctaw and claims that you're an idiot for not knowing the language.

Mike Ford 3 years, 3 months ago

since you are nothing more than an arguement baiting biology student who doesn't really know American History or Native American History or Kansas History for that matter...there's no point in trying to open your eyes to the wrong positions you advocate...be proud in your limited mindset...most of this country is also proud of their limited mindset and they do a good job of giving the rest of the world comedy material...cheers......

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

That's OK - I'll accept my limited abilities as long as you stick to your superior intellect and amazing grasp of truth and reality. It's also OK that you do not answer any of my questions but instead, skillfully dance in large, irregular, and random circles around them. I'm sure it is a matter of being beneath you to stoop so low...or it could be just as Mark Twain said - don't open your mouth and remove all doubt. Of course it hasn't stopped you in the past - perhaps you are maturing?

MarcoPogo - see you were wrong - no Choctaw this time!

Richard Heckler 3 years, 3 months ago

The bottom line: Developers and cars are very expensive budget items. A $200,000,000 - $300,000,000 million dollar tax dollar SLT and a NEW $100,000,000 tax dollar sewage treatment plant. POTENTIALLY $400,000,000(million) PLUS all the new infrastructure for the new houses and strip malls which includes not only streets but fire stations,more LPD vehicles,ambulances,public schools,snow removal,infrastructure repairs etc etc etc.

Is City Hall printing money?

The SLT is nothing more than reckless pork barrel spending for the local Real Estate Industry and the Chamber of Commerce.

Is City Hall printing money? Or has City Hall adopted Reaganomics = borrow and spend

Face it folks the real estate industry built their high tax dollar bedroom community on the wrong side of town. Then they went fishing for a $200,000,000 - $300,000,000 million dollar tax dollar moochin bail out plan known as the SLT.

The bail out plan turned out to be another wrong decision. It merely compounds the high cost of living in Douglas County .

A pork barrel spending bail out plan because back door politics could not leave well enoug Face h alone.

Developers and cars are very expensive budget items. They in turn buy very expensive commissioners who support very expensive requests put forth by developers. Now we have tons of new development which is not paying back the community aka no economic growth. Something went wrong.

Higher taxes and user fees are financing the new wealth for the real estate industry. This is not economic growth. This is you and me paying for what should be paying for itself

What do new roads bring with them? Development which seldom provides long term relief from traffic congestion. New development brings new and more traffic congestion then higher taxes and user fees.

Grab your wallets!

Richard Heckler 3 years, 3 months ago

Don't be surprised when the local powers that be come to the taxpayers wanting a tax increase to build this pork barrel project.

Who knows what they will call the tax increase. When 18 wheelers takeover K-10 what then?

IdahoWinds 3 years, 3 months ago

Richard, When was the last time you were on K-10? Has that road brought economic growth to Lawrence or S Johnson Co. or the communities in between? Yes, and many times over. You say the developers built their expensive houses on the wrong side of town. Have you ever looked at a topo map of the Lawrence area? There is the KS River and floodplain on the north and east and there is the Wakarusa River on the south and east - where does that leave to develop? The only high ground is to the west. That is one of the reasons completing K-10 around Lawrence is a good idea - even you admit that periodically. You complain about the cost and ask if City Hall is printing money. Where do you think the $192mill to complete K-10 is coming from? Tax payers? Yes. But 45% of that is federal fuel tax and the rest is state tax. It is not a local tax. Completing K-10 is part of an $8 bill T-Works plan approved when Mark Parkinson was Gov. There were $35 bill worth of projects being looked at. If the SLT was not chosen, the money would have been spent on a project on Van Buren Ave/Blv? in Topeka. By not building the SLT - you won't say any money - it will be spent in other communities. The SLT project is projected to have the highest economic benefit of any T-Works project in the state. So take a deep breath and let's hope that is true. Of course your blogs are always antigrowth and antidevelopment so having the highest economic benefit in the state is probably a nightmare to you. Most of that benefit will come to E. Hills Business Park area, the old Farmland area, and the interchanges at the Farmers Turnpike area and US 59 and Iowa. The city and county are heavily invested in developing the old Farmland property. It won't happen without the SLT being completed so for you to rant against the SLT you are hoping the city and county fail on the farmland property. Then your complaint of poor planning on the part of the city comes true. Does that seem like the right strategy? And don't come back with the 1100 rd crap - that's gravel on the east end and is not going to benefit any 18 wheelers that you know are coming.

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