Archive for Tuesday, February 8, 2011

Kobach testifies in debate over whether undocumented college students should continue to get in-state tuition rates in Kansas

February 8, 2011

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KU graduate says she would not have attended college if not for in-state tuition for undocumented students

Alaide Vilchis, a Kansas University graduate, was in the Capitol to urge legislators to reject a bill that seeks to repeal a law that allows undocumented students pay the lower in-state tuition. She said she couldn't have gone to college without the law. She was interviewed prior to a scheduled hearing on the repeal bill. Enlarge video

K-State graduate supports in-state tuition rate for children of illegal immigrants

Andrea Prado-Spalding, a Kansas State University graduate, has benefited from a 2004 law that allows some children of illegal immigrants to pay the lower in-state tuition rate. Secretary of State Kris Kobach is seeking to repeal the law. Prado-Spalding was interviewed Tuesday prior to a scheduled hearing on the repeal bill. Enlarge video

Kansas City attorney testifies in favor of repealing in-state tuition for undocumented students

Kathy Brown, an attorney from Kansas City, Mo., on Tuesday testified to the House Federal and State Affairs Committee on why she thought the state should repeal the law that allows in-state tuition for some undocumented students. Enlarge video

— Pleas from both sides of the immigration debate were expressed Tuesday as a House committee considered repealing the law that allows some undocumented students to pay the same lower tuition rates as legal residents of Kansas.

“We are here because we want to learn and make this state better,” said Alaide Vilchis, a 2008 graduate of Kansas University.

Andrea Pardo-Spalding, a Kansas State University graduate, said she came here from Mexico as a child with her parents. “My heart is rooted in the land of opportunity. I just want to give back all the blessings that this great nation and state has given me,” she said.

When they graduated from high school, both women took advantage of a law passed in 2004 that states individuals who attended high school in Kansas for three years and either graduated or received a GED could pay the in-state tuition rate. They also must pursue citizenship.

Approximately 430 students are benefiting from the law.

Both women said they could not have attended college if they were forced to pay the higher out-of-state tuition rates.

But critics of the law have tried for years to repeal it. They say the law encourages illegal immigration, adds to the burden of taxpayers and is unfair to foreign students who are legally here to attend school.

Secretary of State Kris Kobach told the House Federal and State Affairs Committee that, “The state of Kansas is giving an incentive to remain unlawfully present in the United States.”

Kobach, a Republican, said he was testifying not as secretary of state but as an attorney who is an expert on this issue.

Kathy Brown, an attorney from Kansas City, Mo., said, “I’m appalled at the endless invasion of illegal aliens into our country. We have enough entitlements that they are already able to claim and I certainly don’t want them to be able to continue to receive in-state tuition in violation of federal law.”

The hearing on House Bill 2006 was scheduled to continue on Wednesday.

Comments

tennesseerader 4 years, 4 months ago

I have never understood this stupidity. No wonder Kansas taxes are so high. Any non-Kansas citizen should not be allowed in-state tuition. Kansas cannot afford this any more.

MyName 4 years, 4 months ago

It doesn't cost Kansas very much money at all. And if former residents of other states can pay in state tuition just by living here a year, I don't see how students who have been living in this state for several years should be excluded either. These are the type of people we want living in Kansas and paying taxes.

llama726 4 years, 4 months ago

The 2009 population of Kansas was 2,818,747.

430 students benefited from the law.

Grossly overblowing the cost at $5000 per student (when in reality most of these students go to technical colleges and community colleges, not four year schools) yields about a $2.125 million cost.

That's roughly a dollar per taxpayer. If even that.

andreainkansas 4 years, 4 months ago

Actually, it brings in money into the state, because 400 some students who wouldn't be able to attend without the current law are paying in tuition. I'll take the in-state rates they pay over not getting any tuition from them at all.

Plus, with higher education, they're more likely to obtain professional-level employment, which means more income taxes for the state.

PalinPalms 4 years, 4 months ago

Kobach isn't just an attorney who is an expert on this issue, he is an expert on every issue, even the ones he invents.

Bob Forer 4 years, 4 months ago

Thanks for the link. All I can say is WOW. I read all 32 pages of the link. If it is the same Kathy Brown, it appears that she is not an "attorney-at-law" as she alleges in her video, and is possibly in violation of Kansas criminal statutes for so stating.

More significantly, she appears to be the proverbial "wingnut" with major league mental health and/or personality disorder issues.

The sponsor's of this bill should be ashamed for calling her as a witness.

notanota 4 years, 4 months ago

It's the same one. I googled and got this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4n6ia...

And yes, if this is what the sponsors of the bill think counts as a good witness? Egads.

One_Name 4 years, 4 months ago

In-state tuition. Applying a discount for a customer who hasn't played by the rules like everyone else. I wonder why people who follow the rules have a problem with that...

Let's hear from the cash-paying customers, not the government loan-borrowers.

ivalueamerica 4 years, 4 months ago

you are wrong.

The student generally has played by the rules, lived and worked in Kansas, paid their taxes and graduated from Kansas high school. It is usually their parents who did not play by the rules. Generally the children were brought here below the age of consent, unable to made a decision as to what to do. Often, the student does not even know he or she is undocumented.

I realize you could care less and are happy to punish a child for the sins of the fathers, but I think that attitude is disgusting and unAmerican and shameful.

Steve Bunch 4 years, 4 months ago

Amen! Unfortunately, shamelessness has reached epidemic proportions here and elsewhere.

Mean_Green 4 years, 4 months ago

"The student generally has played by the rules, lived and worked in Kansas, paid their taxes..."

How have they paid their taxes if they don't have a social security number (or a legit one at least)? According to my SSN, I paid $13K+ in taxes for 2010. By "paid their taxes" I hope you're not talking about the +/-8% sales tax on a package of tortillas.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 4 months ago

This has been studied rather extensively, and the results of those studies show that undocumented workers actually pay more in the way of taxes than they take in in benefits.

jhawkinsf 4 years, 4 months ago

Not when you include the benefits of educating their children, caring for their parents, using emergency health services for routine medical problems, incarcerating criminals, etc., etc., etc. And when you see an individual standing in front of the paint store or Home Depot, hoping to find work, are they still called a "worker" or "potential worker" or "unemployed worker"?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 4 months ago

"Not when you include the benefits of educating their children, caring for their parents, using emergency health services for routine medical problems, incarcerating criminals, etc., etc., etc."

Actually, I believe those have been accounted for.

"are they still called a "worker" or "potential worker" or "unemployed worker"?"

What difference does it make?

jhawkinsf 4 years, 4 months ago

The difference it makes is that our immigration policy should account for how many jobs are available. That's a big part of the problem, illegal immigrants are circumventing American public policy. I'm guessing (not trying to twist your words, so correct me if I'm wrong) you don't approve of that policy but most Americans do. As to whether or not the other issues have been accounted for: I've seen studies reflecting both conclusions. The conclusion can usually be predicted simply by seeing who's conducting the survey.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 4 months ago

Well, the important point is that illegal immigration has rather insignificant financial costs, no matter how you want to look at it.

ivalueamerica 4 years, 4 months ago

no, he is not kidding, he is just not as stupid as you when it comes to the facts.

Despite the sky is falling rants.... illegal immigrants pay much more into local, County, state and federal hopppers than they take out. Just about every government and independent study concurs.

I am not using that as to advocate illegal immigration as I am against it...but I am not going to be stupid and just make things up or repeat unsupported stoundbites beacuse if I do, i would appear as stupid as you do.

jhawkinsf 4 years, 4 months ago

That's simply not true. It's how you add the numbers. The cost of illegal immigration cannot be completely known when certain entities refuse to ask the question. Hospitals do not ask, so those costs are estimated. In San Francisco, city and county jails as well as hospitals are forbidden by law to ask immigration status. California's infrastructure is crumbling while the percentage of illegal immigration there is higher than most states. Nevada's illegal immigration numbers are also very high, as is their unemployment. Sanctuary cities such as S.F. make it very hard to know the exact numbers, but having lived there for some time it's obvious that the costs are extremely high and getting worse. If Kansas wants to go hell, just follow S.F.'s lead.

andreainkansas 4 years, 4 months ago

I have a masters degree in the economics of immigration. George Borjas is behind the "social drain" economic argument, and he has largely been discredited.

There are a very few places, at the local level, where immigration, of all kinds, results in a small drain. But there are only a couple municipalities and none of them are in Kansas.

Kansas has gained hundreds of thousands of dollars in tuition payments under this law. This law has nothing to do with federal immigration law and everything to do with what makes sense for Kansas. This is why the Regents, the universities, the public schools, the private schools, employers, and basically everyone but the fools who buy into Kobach's flawed and false arguments support the current law.

Bananajoe 4 years, 4 months ago

you are ignorant regarding tax law. you do not need a social security number to file your taxes. If you don't have one you ask the IRS for a ITIN or individual tax identification number that you use to file your taxes.

foppa 4 years, 4 months ago

I paid taxes with a tax payer ID given to me by the IRS. I could tell you how much taxes I paid while I was undocumented as well. Many undocumented people do this because, when/if we have a path to citizenship, it might affect the decision. Although I am not a big fan of pretty racist comment, I want you to know that I respect your opinion. Lets have intelligent conversations about immigration and this law. I want to make sure that you understand that even undocumented immigrants pay taxes when they are working for a company. I also want to make sure that people know that the law DOES NOT allow students to apply for federal grants, any kind of student loans, etc, etc.

jafs 4 years, 4 months ago

So somebody in this country illegally can get the IRS to give them an ID # to pay taxes, and nobody notices the illegal residency, or does anything about it?

Wow.

Ali999 4 years, 4 months ago

At the age of 18, these students are responsible for their own immigration status or lack thereof. They can return to their home countries and apply for a legal foreign student visa and pay foreign student rates.

Furthermore, there is NO right to a college education for even an American citizen, so how is it "punishment" that we don't subsidize one for someone who is here illegally? And how about "punishing" the parents who ARE breaking the law? Just what do you plan to do about them?

Bananajoe 4 years, 4 months ago

How are you subsidizing them? they do not qualify for state or federal aid. they pay the whole amount out of their own pockets. The only thing you are providing them is with an in-state tuition.

jafs 4 years, 4 months ago

What do you think makes up the difference between in state and out of state tuition?

I imagine it's tax revenue.

andreainkansas 4 years, 4 months ago

Actually, they really can't. The system is set up so that if they try to leave, they won't get back in. So post-1996 federal immigration laws had the unintended consequence of trapping people in the U.S. because, though many would like to come and go through non-clandestine channels, the risks are that they'll never be allowed back in.

Not that people who are convinced they are experts on this will actually believe an attorney who works in this every single day, but still, those are the facts...

hobak 4 years, 4 months ago

I do agree that a child should never be punished for the sins of the parent, however, what about when they turn 18, and they do not return voluntarily to their country of origin? Can they then be held accountable? In the age of entitlement, everyone thinks they deserve it just because.

If you want to attend college or a tech school or any other form of higher education, shouldnt you play by the rules. Sure there were only 480 people affected by the law, but that means 480 lawfully present individuals or citizens were not able to attend schools in Kansas. Should we make those individuals disenfranchised because some one, who is unlawfully in the United States, feels they deserve it.

If you are not a citizen or national of the Untied States and you wish to attend an institution of higher learning, submit a request for an F-1, J-1 or other form of visa, which allows you to enter the United States, and attend classes.

There is a right way and a wrong way of doing things. If you allow one class of person to partake, you have to allow the entire population to partake.

thebigspoon 4 years, 4 months ago

Very thoughtful, but the assertion that the 480 "illegals" got college educations at the expense of 480 otherwise deserving "legals" is false and fear-mongering. There is no "quota" on the number of college students in our state institutions, so nobody was able to "steal" anybody else's spot in college. Stick to facts and your argument is rationsl. Throw in silliness and you sink to the silly level.

Also, the entire population of Kansas residents is elligible to "partake", given that they qualify academically, so I fail to see the "right" and "wrong" ways of which you speak. And don't throw the tired old adage at me that these children of illegals can't be residents of Kansas. It was not their doing that brought them here and no amount of argument will prove to any thinking person that they are not state residents, eligible for in-state tuition.

cato_the_elder 4 years, 4 months ago

This is a classic example of what happens when a law that never should have been enacted in the first place is nonetheless enacted by short-sighted lawmakers, and then it's close to impossible to repeal it when the positive experiences of the relative few who have taken advantage of it are rolled out before a legislative committee.

monkeyhawk 4 years, 4 months ago

"Both women said they could not have attended college if they were forced to pay the higher out-of-state tuition rates."

Could they get "in-state" rates in Mexico? Can I?

tomatogrower 4 years, 4 months ago

The sad thing is that these women might at best be able to speak and understand Spanish, but may not be able to read and write Spanish, so they would have a hard time in a Mexican University. Remember they went through American schools.

Also in Mexico not just anyone is allowed to attend college. If you do well on academic tests, you are sent to a prep school, while others are sent to vocational school, at about the age of 8th grade. If they continue to show academic talent, they will go to University essentially free. There will be a nominal fee and they must work for the government for free for 1 year after they graduate, but no student loans to pay back, no second mortgage for the parents. Of course they probably pay more taxes than we do.

Ali999 4 years, 4 months ago

Actually, a big problem for MEXICO is that it doesn't levy a lot of taxes and doesn't collect a lot of the ones it does levy. The government has relied on revenues from the oil industry to fund the government instead of investing in exploration, with the result that the oil reserves are depleted.

llama726 4 years, 4 months ago

I don't know.

Why don't you go back in time to when you were about 10 years old and have your parents sneak into a country with the idea of creating a better life for you. They broke the rules, not you, but they couldn't very well leave you alone. Fast forward 8 years. Through your individual effort you've succeeded despite an obvious language and cultural barrier and despite the protests of many people around you, and despite obvious discrimination. Your parents work and have taxes witheld but dare not file on risk of being caught, so they, unlike your classmates, do not receive a fat refund check every year.

Somehow you do well and somehow your parents have saved up a few thousand extra dollars despite their significantly lowered economic position. And you have still been earning good enough grades to consider a four year college.

So, unless you're a kid who plans on going through all that, no, you can't go get in-state rates in Mexico, and please think critically before you posit a question like that again. Thanks.

Ali999 4 years, 4 months ago

Still doesn't explain why this student should get IN-STATE rates here, where she is, after all, NOT A LEGAL RESIDENT OF THE STATE OR THE UNITED STATES. If you're not a legal resident of the former, you can't be a legal resident of the part.

llama726 4 years, 4 months ago

She graduated from a Kansas High School. To do that, you have to have core competency in Math, English, and American Social Studies. To do that, you'd need to be willing to work hard enough to overcome a language barrier.

You need to explain to me why she shouldn't get in state rates. Her parents very likely paid income taxes and have never likely received a refund.

In summary: She graduated from a Kansas high school and thus is a resident. Wasn't her choice to come here unlawfully. We don't punish "sins of the parents" on any other kids. This shouldn't be an exception.

jafs 4 years, 4 months ago

Someone who is not a legal resident of the country can't be a legal resident of any state.

It's basic logic.

llama726 4 years, 4 months ago

The word "basic" highlights all of the ideas that seem to be posted by advocates of Kobach's position. Life isn't basic, or clear-cut, or black and white. Sorry.

monkeyhawk 4 years, 4 months ago

Should have included the smiley face for you.

"Why don't you go back in time to when you were about 10 years old and have your parents sneak into a country with the idea of creating a better life for you. They broke the rules, not you, but they couldn't very well leave you alone."

I can go back to the womb and there would never be a time when my parents, my siblings nor I Ever committed any crime, so I cannot relate to your silly hypothetical. Both my parents are US citizens and worked to support their family. They never sucked the gov teat, nor have they ever demanded or taken handouts from neighbors or fellow Americans.

monkeyhawk 4 years, 4 months ago

“We are here because we want to learn and make this state better,” said Alaide Vilchis, a 2008 graduate of Kansas University."

How has she made the state better since graduation? Is she now magically a US citizen, or merely an undocumented graduate?

onceinawhile 4 years, 4 months ago

I can't speak for whether that student is now a U.S. citizen, but students who take advantage of this law also must pursue citizenship.

foppa 4 years, 4 months ago

I'm Alaide. I did not magically become a US Citizen but I am now a legal US resident. I pay my taxes and volunteer in the community. I also plan to become an international politician and when I do, I hope to represent Kansas to the best of my abilities. I am proud of being a Kansas and the town where I live and perhaps, one day, when I am a US citizen I can work in kansas politics. I hope I answered your question. ( They did not say that in the story, both Andrea and I are now US residents)

overthemoon 4 years, 4 months ago

Congratulations Alaide!!

There's a lot that wasn't said in the 'story'.

Ali999 4 years, 4 months ago

Tell you what, Alaide, you can have a "legal path", but the people who brought you here ILLEGALLY, probably your parents, need to return to their home country, NEVER to be able to return. Anything else is rewarding illegal behavior and will encourage more of it. Fair enough?

llama726 4 years, 4 months ago

Oh, nevermind. Sorry I replied to you earlier. You're a troll.

Flap Doodle 4 years, 4 months ago

"Kobach testifies in debate over whether illegal alien college students should continue to get in-state tuition rates in Kansas" Fixed the headline for you.

Seth Peterson 4 years, 4 months ago

Wait....

"Kobach testifies in debate over whether some Kansas residents who are college students should continue to get in-state tuition rates in Kansas based on their skin color or their parent's nation of origin."

There we go, now the headline's right.

If you're a resident of Kansas you deserve in-state tuition, especially if you have lived here and attended a Kansas high school for more than three years - as each of these students have.

jafs 4 years, 4 months ago

If you're not a legal resident of the US, how can you be a legal resident of any state?

july241983 4 years, 4 months ago

Being a resident of a state usually just means that you own or rent some residential real estate there. Basically, that you live there. These students all lived in Kansas, or all went to high school in Kansas, or they wouldn't get the tuition break.

jafs 4 years, 4 months ago

I understand that.

But, it seems to me that if you are not a legal resident of the country, it doesn't make any sense to consider you a legal resident of any state.

july241983 4 years, 4 months ago

I understand that.

But, it seems to me that if you live in Kansas, went to high school in Kansas, and work in Kansas, you are a resident of Kansas, regardless of whether your parents committed a federal offense years ago by entering the country without the proper documentation.

Ali999 4 years, 4 months ago

You can't be a LEGAL resident of Kansas if you're NOT a legal resident of the United States.

Scott Morgan 4 years, 4 months ago

You folks are starting to sway me. If you look at Kobach's photos you can see horn bumps just above his ears. He casts no shadow either.

Any state which allows laws to be broken is encouraging such. Well, we paid for the high schooling of those 430, why not just keep giving and giving. Weeeeeee this is fun isn't it. Oh, sorry Mrs. Kansas resident for 50 years, we will be cutting your services.

Oh, and thanks for the 50 years of sales, property, and income taxes too.

overthemoon 4 years, 4 months ago

This article makes it appear that the only people testifying for the bill were students who had benefited from it. Were there no other people speaking about the positive aspects of the program? Is Kobach donating his time spent 'as an attorney' while he is an elected official who has made his xenophobic agenda quite clear? Who is this attorney from Missouri?

This is a huge and complex issue, it deserves more in-depth reporting. As was pointed out in debates on the DREAM act, many of these students have spent most if not all of their lives in the United States. Many of them have excelled in high school, making better grades and working harder than a lot of their 'natural born citizen' classmates. They know the importance of their education better than most and make the most of it. These are young people who are illegal because of decisions made by their parents, and they are left in limbo and fear in spite of their best efforts to 'do the right thing'. Is there not some way to allow them gain the citizenship they have earned and recognize that they have valuable contributions to make?

Its high time that the reality of changing demographics in the world are accepted...white people of European descent are not going to be in the majority or in control of the world and here in the US for much longer. The numbers just don't work that way. Perhaps it would be wiser to figure out how to make sure the future majority of people are educated and respected instead of desperately trying to suppress the inevitable changes.

I am not saying we cast a blind eye on illegal immigration, but we seem to have not figured out that two centuries of proclaiming that America is the best dang place on the planet makes people desperate to come and try to give their children the future we promise.

rtwngr 4 years, 4 months ago

Then let them come here legally and remove the incentives/entitlements that are a huge lure.

naturalist 4 years, 4 months ago

OTTM: Very well put. I wanted to make a comment but you said everything better than I could. Rtwinger, these kids as minors were brought here by their parents. Wouldn't you rather they be getting educated and getting jobs that do contribute to our economy?

tomatogrower 4 years, 4 months ago

Do you have any idea how hard and expensive it is to legally immigrate to this country. They also only want skilled people, not meat cutters.

Ali999 4 years, 4 months ago

Since when aren't Hispanics of "European" descent? Spain is part of Europe. You might also not the Hispanic is NOT a race, but an ethnicity, and that Hispanics may be of ANY race, including WHITE. You might also note that MEXICO is a wealthy country and home to the world's richest man. That wealthy elite stays that way by dumping that country's poor off on us.

storm 4 years, 4 months ago

We could start by calling the USA the USA instead of America...might help folks understand when they leave Mexico that they're coming over to another country..we could start identifying Hispanics as Anglos which they are...we could bring geography back into schools so the likes of Kobach don' t spawn. (The last politician who had a personal geographer was Eisenhower.)

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 4 months ago

I expect that after repeal of this law, Kobach will next demand that the cerebral cortex of any student who took advantage of it should be removed, since any knowledge residing there was obtain "illegally."

Peacemaker452 4 years, 4 months ago

Bozo, We appreciate your volunteering to test the surgery to make sure it was safe. Did the scars heal up OK.

Ali999 4 years, 4 months ago

Any student who takes advantage of this law will find that that knowledge will be removed all too quickly because the only jobs they'll be able to get are flipping burgers or cleaning floors, just as they'd get NOW. They will STILL not be able to work legally in this country.

Stephanie Anderson 4 years, 4 months ago

Easy for many of us to throw out righteous remarks about being citizens and how this is OUR country...blah blah blah. Try for one second to put yourself in someone else's shoes. Or even try being grateful for one second that you're not living with the constant consequences of your parent's decisions. You're not superior simply because you were lucky enough to be born here. How are in-state tuition rates hurting you? This has absolutely nothing to do with social services.

overthemoon 4 years, 4 months ago

"Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds most of the criticisms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well-warmed, and well-fed." -Herman Melville, novelist and poet

Ali999 4 years, 4 months ago

Maybe you should try it. Say you're one of the students I've taught in the Middle East. You work hard at school, which you and your parents sacrifice to put you through. You get a chance to come to the United States for school, and have to jump through immigration hoops, pay high fees to ICE, AND you and your family have to scramble to put together the tuition and living expenses because as a foreign student, you can't work here. Now, you get here and see that someone else's parents made their first act in this country breaking our laws and have been doing it ever since. That now the children, who have gotten a "free" K-12 education, expect a taxpayer-subsidized college education. Wouldn't YOU feel like a fool for following the law? As for the harm it does, well the fact that YOU think breaking the law is such a trivial matter, is how illegal immigration harms us. As Pres. Eisenhower noted, illegal immigration is associated with corruption at the highest levels.

By the way, what's supposed to happen to the PARENTS of these "students"? The federal Dream Act would have let the kid's eventually legalize them, thus rewarding their illegal behavior.

As for "lucky" to be born here, well, we're LUCKY that our parents and grandparents have been willing to tax themselves to provide the benefits we enjoy. Or did you think that the streets of the U.S. are "paved with gold" the way illegal aliens seem to? You might note that MEXICO is a WEALTHY country, too--but you'd never know it by its citizens. Why aren't MEXICANS "lucky" to be born in their country? And whose fault are its problems except those of Mexicans?

As for social services, EDUCATION is a social service. K-12 is subsidized by the U.S. taxpayer as well as the State. So are public colleges and universities. Or, are you going to give "in-state" tuition to everyone, including the 691,000 legal foreign students who are here this year?

William Weissbeck 4 years, 4 months ago

430 individuals currently benefiting from in-state tuition is not breaking the budget. 430 people who may insult your sense of right and wrong are a pittance compared to the droves of people who insult you everyday by blowing red lights, jaywalking, speeding, cutting you off, fudging on their tax returns, getting their property tax assessment lowered because they know someone, etc, etc. These 430 are hardly a title wave (they aren't even a ripple). These people aren't causing you your problems. Get on with you lives and go after the Kochs, the bankers and the insurance companies, and their brethren, and stop picking on the weak and defenseless, the straw men thrown up to divert you from the real crimes going on around you that rob you every day. Quite frankly, reading some of your comments, it is obvious that Kansas needs all the eduacated college graduates it can get. We can't afford to lose these 430.

Ali999 4 years, 4 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

jhawkinsf 4 years, 4 months ago

As the old saying goes, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". The main argument in favor of The Dream Act is one of fairness. It's not fair to burden the children with the bad decisions of the parent. It's true, we should not punish children when their parents' crime. However, The Dream Act creates two unfairnesses. First, what do we tell people who are patiently waiting to come to this country legally? They are playing by the rules yet those who have broken the rules will be put at the front of the line. The Dream Act only sanctions that place at the front of the line. Those still waiting will have to wait longer. Certainly this will encourage others to break the rules, come here illegally so that their children will get to the front of the line. The second unfairness is this, at some time, when these children are in school, in the service in med. school, or otherwise being productive members of our society, their parents or siblings will be picked up by the government for deportation. These are the people who brought their children into this country. These are the original lawbreakers. We, the government, our government (us), will be accused of breaking up families. After all, we will be sanctioning the stay of the children while at the same time deporting the parents (or other relatives, brothers, sisters, grandparents, etc.) Well, I don't like being put in this no win situation. Wouldn't it be equally unfair if we required of Dream Act recipients that as a condition of their stay they assist in the deportation of their own parents? No one likes being put in this lose/lose situation. I certainly don't. The only solution to that problem would be to allow relatives, caregivers, significant others, etc. of Dream Act recipients a blanket amnesty. That's the next logical step in the Dream Act debate. That's the hidden agenda of The Dream Act. And the overwhelming majority of American citizens are opposed to this. My above comments concern the "fairness" argument. If another argument can be made, one that addresses the concerns raised here, then perhaps a solution can be found. But I don't believe the argument that it is fair is sufficient.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 4 months ago

You aren't concerned about "fairness." You're concerned about a line in the sand that you've dared the "wrong people" not to cross, and now that they have, you're looking to punish them, and their children.

jafs 4 years, 4 months ago

The point about this being unfair to other potential immigrants who are trying to follow the rules, and come here legally, is a good one.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 4 months ago

The immigrants coming here illegally really have no chance of coming here legally. So the notion that repealing this will stop them from coming here is just wrong.

But right now, illegal immigration is way down. The reason for that it that the economy has tanked.

So if illegal immigration is such a dire problem, perhaps we should consider keeping the economy permanently in the crapper.

jhawkinsf 4 years, 4 months ago

Bozo, I said I was concerned about fairness. You said I'm not. The truth is that I'm concerned about fairness. Don't twist my words and I won't twist yours. I have no idea what you mean by "wrong people". Thousands come to this country legally. Thousands come here illegally. The number that come here should be determined by the people of the U.S. and by our representatives who pass laws. If we put caps on those numbers, perhaps it's because we have good reasons for doing so. If you want open immigration, vote for representatives who want that. By the way, you say illegal immigration is way down. Estimates range that there are about 10-12 million illegal immigrants currently here. What would you consider an acceptable number?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 4 months ago

The world is not fair. Divvying it up into nation-states where some are born on first base or better while others can't even get up to bat is not fair.

It's one thing to say that that's just the way it is, and there's nothing that can really be done to change it for the vast majority of have-nots. But immigration laws devised to enforce this state of unfairness can't be said to be based on a desire for fairness. That sort of thinking and language could come straight out of Orwell's 1984.

"Estimates range that there are about 10-12 million illegal immigrants currently here. What would you consider an acceptable number?"

That's less than 3% of the total population. Real unemployment/underemployment in this country is over 18%. Assuming every illegal immigrant is working full-time (and they aren't,) removing all of these immigrants couldn't lower the real unemployment below 15%, which is still a staggering number. Which means that while illegal immigrants may be somewhat of a problem, that pales in comparison with all of the really serious problems that confront us.

jafs 4 years, 4 months ago

That surprises me.

Fairness is usually something that liberals are interested in.

It's one thing to say the world isn't fair - that's like saying life isn't fair. But our policies should be crafted on some foundation, one of the pillars of which is fairness, in my view.

And, creating a fair immigration policy includes consideration of the many people who are trying to come here legally, and not punishing them by rewarding those who choose to come illegally.

And, you didn't answer the question - what's an acceptable number of illegal immigrants?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 4 months ago

"And, you didn't answer the question - what's an acceptable number of illegal immigrants?"

There is no good answer to that question. Or, perhaps better said, given the inherent unfairness in this world, there is no answer that can be devised on the basis of fairness.

It's kind of like in a shipwreck where there are a thousand people on board, but only 500 spots on the lifeboats. 500 people are going to drown, and 500 are not. Determining who gets what fate is not going to be done on a basis of fairness. It will necessarily be pragmatic and arbitrary, not fair.

But if somebody manages to make it onto the lifeboat by breaking the pragmatic/arbitrary rules, should they be denied food because that would be the "fair" thing to do? Would throwing them overboard be "fair?" Or would it just be a means of justifying the previous pragmatic/arbitrary actions?

And that's what repealing this law would do. It'd be throwing these kids overboard not because of a sense of fairness, but to justify our pragmatic/arbitrary immigration policies.

jhawkinsf 4 years, 4 months ago

Since nothing in the world is fair, don't the recipients of the Dream Act lose their argument that they are being treated unfair. I don't see solutions when I read your statements. As to your lifeboat analogy, let's say someone swims to a full lifeboat, gets in by throwing someone else out. Would it be o.k. for the other occupants to throw that person out by saying they just don't want that type of person on the boat? Then fill that spot with someone who was treading water nearby? Fair?

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 4 months ago

"Since nothing in the world is fair, don't the recipients of the Dream Act lose their argument that they are being treated unfair."

I don't think arguing "fairness" is in their best interest. The best argument for this program is that it's in everyone's best interest that they get an education, and therefore become more productive members of society.

"let's say someone swims to a full lifeboat, gets in by throwing someone else out."

But these kids haven't thrown anyone out of the boat.

William Weissbeck 4 years, 4 months ago

Unfortunately, our current immigration laws have about as much relevance and recognition of current realities as Hammurabi's Code or some of the laws of the Torah. And when we have one political party who is adamant in their belief and fear that granting citizenship to anyone who originated south of the border would simply be giving votes to the other party, then it is much easier to see that this has nothing to do with strict adherence to the law, but rather to retain power. Sort of like Egypt and other non-democracies in the Middle East, states like Texas and Arizona want to keep down and ignore a significant segment of their population.

Ali999 4 years, 4 months ago

No, we're adamant in our opposition to yet another amnesty because all amnesty does is lead to MORE illegal immigration. We were lied to in 1986, and we've been lied to since, about enforcement of the law.

And since you're bringing up Egypt, the Egyptians are having the courage to fight for change in their OWN country, which is more than one can say of illegal aliens. Illegal aliens are cowards, liars, line jumpers, and law breakers who cut and ran, rather than seeking to fix what was wrong with their own country.

overthemoon 4 years, 4 months ago

One obvious solution would be to put an end date on the DREAM act. Students who are in the US and over 5 years of age as of 2011 (or some to-be-determined date) may work toward college admission and residency. Those who don't meet that requirement are given plenty of advance notice to 'make other arrangements'. Its not fair to cut off those who have worked hard and honestly to achieve their dreams and its also not fair or right for parents to come here illegally and hope to buck the system for 12+ years.

In the meantime, we'd do well to spend the money we waste on bombs and guns on helping to develop quality education in those places where it is not even a dream.

jhawkinsf 4 years, 4 months ago

It's just passing the buck to the next generation. They will be confronted with the same arguments and the same sympathies we need to confront now.
I do like the fact that at least you're trying to look for a compromise.

Jimo 4 years, 4 months ago

A) Kobach is not an expert on this (or apparently any) issue.

B) Just as predicted, Kobach intends to abuse his office by using it to moonlight in his real job - professional gadfly and aspiring fascist.

Query: can the State Treasurer recover the wasted salary provided to Kobach?

geekin_topekan 4 years, 4 months ago

Kobach: Self proclaimed expert. Sounds like what's-his-name over at Haskell, on climate change.

Anyway--Tennesseereader, the children of illegal aliens have fulfilled all the residency requirements and receive in-state tuition. The reason non-residents don't is because they do not contribute to our state. The immigrants parents have worked, paid taxes and support the local economy while out-of-staters have not.

Illegal contribute, people from outside Kansas do not. It's pretty simple.

Where's your outrage over Washburn's recent decision to allow Missourians to attend as in-state contributors, even though they don't? These are the people who actually siphon money off of the state of Kansas. The children of illegals attending as in-state, cost Kansans NOTHING. Washburn throws out the welcome mat to non-contributors.

The Dream Act is the only immigration policy that actually works. It costs American's nada and provides a clearer pathway to citizenship for productive and ambitious Americans.

Beth Bird 4 years, 4 months ago

No - They should not get a discount, they should be deported. They are here illegally - they need to go back to their country of citizenship and apply for citizenship to the US or apply to attend as an international student. It's that simple.

kansanbygrace 4 years, 4 months ago

People have been crossing the southern border to work in US for generations, unimpeded. Now, 40 years later, we're having a cow about having left the barn door open. It's a multi-generational phenomenon we'll probably not change with a pill or a click of the mouse.

A relative of ours wants to visit us and visit some schools here and make application. The family's working class, and working.

The Embassy requires letters of sponsorship, a personal financial report from the sponsor, petitions, filing fee, trips to the embassy, a round trip ticket in hand. There is no guarantee of a visa on arrival. You can be denied at the US airport without prior notice. It's a very complicated and expensive process with no guarantee of result.

Going the other way, your r/t airline ticket includes a 60 day Visa, no problem. Go visit, go home. Can apply for extension twice per year. DON'T get caught cause the jails are nasty!

Rethink the whole system, and create a just model can be made to adapt as needs and policies change, write a clear and enforceable code and Do It.

Ali999 4 years, 4 months ago

We Have a "just" model. You apparently don't realize that just one country, MEXICO, sends the most legal immigrants to the U.S., 15-20% of our total legal immigration for the past two decades or more. That's because of our emphasis on FAMILY REUNIFICATION, which allows U.S. citizens to sponsor parents, adult kids, and siblings with their families, creating massive chain migration.

IF our laws were enforced, IF people weren't overstaying visas or sneaking across the border, then your relatives would have an easier time of it. If we knew that people would honor the non immigrant visa they were given, then we wouldn't have all the hoops you just identified. Fact is, U.S. immigration policy is supposed to be for the good of, get this, AMERICANS, and importing lots of unskilled, uneducated people who used taxpayer-provided services that they have not and will never come close to paying for harms Americans, as does the downward pressure on wages and job opportunities for the poorest.

alexjandra 4 years, 4 months ago

EVERYONE PLEASE READ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Undocumented students CANNOT receive federal or state financial aid (pell grants, student loans, work-study, etc...). If they decide to continue on to college, they must pay for it out of pocket or with scholarships. Keep in mind, many scholarships also ask for SSN. So, as you can see...NO, you the taxpayer do NOT pay for their college educations, they pay for it themselves. Please do a little research before posting on a topic you know very little about. Also, many undocumented immigrants DO pay taxes. That's why they have Tax ID #'s, for those who don't have SSN's. Another thing, when they file their income taxes, they are not able to get any tax refunds, so that money the government keeps. Stop being so greedy. Taxpayer this, taxpayer that... please, i'm a taxpayer too.

jhawkinsf 4 years, 4 months ago

And what percentage of illegal immigrants get paid under the table. No taxes paid there. My guess is that that number exceeds the tax refunds forfeited.

deec 4 years, 4 months ago

Then go after the meat factories and other employers who are cheating the system.

jhawkinsf 4 years, 4 months ago

Go after both, they are both breaking the law. But I was mostly thinking of the contractors looking for cheap labor, or the restaurant hiring cooks. Because they are so many in numbers but small in terms of how many each employs, it's hard to go after all of them.

deec 4 years, 4 months ago

Do you believe corporate chain restaurants are paying under the table? Contractors, yeah probably they are paying cash. Where was our civic outrage during the last twenty years when the contractors were using them to build the housing bubble? Will you stop eating meat, fruit and vegetables that were most likely picked and processed by illegals? If your roof needs replacing, will you choose your contractor based on the immigration status of their employees?

Ali999 4 years, 4 months ago

We do, and guess what? Supporters of illegal aliens such as the ACLU, SEIU, AFL-CIO, and LaRaza fight that enforcement because it means that jobs for illegal aliens will dry up and they'll have to leave.

Of course, Obama's ICE is now raiding Chipotle's across the country. We'll see what industry, if any, ICE targets next. Maybe Meatpackers? I hear Tyson's just signed a deal with them.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 4 months ago

They still pay sales taxes. They still pay property taxes when they pay their rent. And even if they are getting paid under the table, as long as their employers aren't concealing a good deal of their income or otherwise lying on their tax returns, any wages paid out in cash will have to show up as their income, making them liable to pay not only income taxes on that amount, but also FICA.

jhawkinsf 4 years, 4 months ago

It's why so many cash businesses have 2 sets of books. They are both cheating the system. Neither should be ignored. Everyone else pay sales tax, property tax, etc. It's the income tax they are not paying.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 4 months ago

If the employer is keeping two sets of books, he's the one cheating the system, not the employee, who probably isn't making more than minimum wage, anyway.

jhawkinsf 4 years, 4 months ago

What I hear you saying is that while both are breaking the law, one is worse than the other. Is that correct? Or are you saying that the illegal immigrant is being exploited so his illegal act is defensible?
I agree that if there are 2 sets of books, that person is breaking the law. But I disagree with your statement that the illegal worker is not breaking the law. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm certain it's illegal. If you don't like the law, change it in a legal manner.

jafs 4 years, 4 months ago

Yes.

It's like buying and selling stolen goods.

They're both illegal, not just one of them.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 4 months ago

You can focus on their illegal crossing of the border to gain employment as the basis for labeling them as "criminals," but that's just too simplistic.

These are people who work for a living. They generally get paid very poorly for what they do, and barely struggle to get by. They aren't stealing anything from anyone. I see no rational basis for calling them "criminals" for simply doing an honest day's work.

jafs 4 years, 4 months ago

Come on.

They came here illegally - they broke the law.

If you think they should be able to come here more easily, advocate for different policies on immigration.

Ali999 4 years, 4 months ago

Tell that to the IRS when they ask why you didn't pay income taxes. I'm sure they'll buy the argument that you paid sales tax so don't have to pay income tax--NOT.

Stephanie Anderson 4 years, 4 months ago

You're talking about a system-wide change that WILL affect your pocket book. Want to talk about the price of food now? Are you willing to pay more for your food? Cuz it will cost you.

deec 4 years, 4 months ago

I think all those opposed to illegal immigrants should start a boycott of the products grown, picked or processed by illegal immigrants. You can start right now to truly show your outrage by eliminating fresh meat, fruit and vegetables from your grocery cart. You better add most resaurants as well. Walmart has had to settle a few suits due to cleaning crews using illegals, so they're out as well.

jhawkinsf 4 years, 4 months ago

That's exactly what we're proposing, we're just waiting for the last illegal immigrant to leave before we start the boycott.

deec 4 years, 4 months ago

Vote with your dollars now. Express your moral outrage and stop buying food grown, picked and processed by illegal immigrants. Be sure and write to the corporations who utilize the immigrants and tell them you are boycotting them for hiring illegals. The info is not hard to fiind online as to which companies to boycott. Reduce demand for the labor of illegals and they'll go home.

jhawkinsf 4 years, 4 months ago

As you obviously know, when I go to a grocery store and purchase a head of lettuce, I have no idea which was picked by an illegal immigrant and which was picked by a legal worker. What I do know is that it is a combination of both. If you will be so kind as to show me which is which, I will purchase the one picked by the legal worker.
It's not as easy as you say. It's like seeing a group or workers, all with seemingly legal ID's, knowing some are not. But how do we pick out the people who are here illegally without violating our sensibilities (profiling). It's not easy as you state but very hard. The original question though was should we made it easier for the illegal immigrant to blend into society, making it harder to enforce the law. I say no.

deec 4 years, 4 months ago

Tyson. IBP.Chipotle.Walmart.Perdue http://www.examiner.com/immigration-reform-in-national/how-many-fortune-500-companies-pad-their-profits-by-hiring-illegal-aliens http://ufw.org/_page.php?menu=organizing&inc=ir.html Here's some starting points for you. You don't like illegal immigrants? Boycott these companies. It's very simple. These companies use illegal aliens. Minimal googling reveals many more.

Ali999 4 years, 4 months ago

We're already paying a lot more for our food, and it has nothing to do with the cost of labor, and everything to do with the price of oil and the cost of transporting products. Labor is a VERY small part of the final price of a product and an agricultural economist in California notes that increasing wages paid to farmworkers would NOT drastically increase the price of food. Of course, you're conveniently forgetting that ALL of us subsidize the farmer and the illegal worker, while only SOME of us buy his products. The true cost of a product should be borne by those who buy it.

Ali999 4 years, 4 months ago

YOU do some research. Public colleges and universities are SUBSIDIZED by the taxpayer. Unless you pay foreign student rates, YOU are getting a subsidy.

As for "paying taxes", if you are, then you're probably doing it under a stolen or fraudulent ID. And of course, it's doubtful that any "taxes" your parents or you are paying will come anywhere near close to covering the $9,000 or so a year it costs for a K-12 education, much less the costs of a university education.

The fact that you don't even seem to realize or care that you yourself are breaking the laws of this country, including those against fraud and identity theft and working illegally, is reason enough to figure you won't make a good citizen of this country.

verity 4 years, 4 months ago

From the article: "Kobach, a Republican, said he was testifying not as secretary of state but as an attorney who is an expert on this issue."

Is it just me, or is there something wrong with this? An inherent conflict of interest perhaps? Aren't we paying him to be a full-time SoS?

july241983 4 years, 4 months ago

Where does it say that you are paying for their education? They are paying for it.

july241983 4 years, 4 months ago

The student. It's going to cost the state the same amount of money to run the university system regardless of whether these students are attending. This bill might keep kids from going all together. I think it will end up costing the state money.

jafs 4 years, 4 months ago

That's simply not true.

The student pays the tuition rate.

If it costs the state the same regardless of how many students attend, why charge tuition at all? That cannot be true.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 4 months ago

I'd say you're both right, to a certain extent.

The expenses for running the universities would not drop appreciably if these 430 students couldn't enroll, as their fixed overheads would remain exactly the same.

But if they were required to pay out-of-state tuition, (assuming they could afford it) the universities and/or state would have more income in the form of tuition.

july241983 4 years, 4 months ago

And because the students probably will not be able to pay the out-of-state rate, they pay no tuition, and the State loses money.

geekin_topekan 4 years, 4 months ago

Agreed, I wish some states would do away with their in-state requirements. Arizona and Washington come to mind but hey, they have respectable citizens whose money they would like to see extended to their own people first and I understand that perfectly.

geekin_topekan 4 years, 4 months ago

"is paid for by whom in a Government school?" +++ The non-contributing student. (or the non-contributing student's parents pay for it.

The children of illegal alien's parents have contributed to the state economy for a minimum of three years and therefore have earned the residency status. CH did not contribute to the state of Kansas therefore he has to pay a greater rate to makeup for his deficiency.

Ali999 4 years, 4 months ago

If they get in-state rates, then the state and federal taxpayers are subsidizing their education. Legal foreign students pay the full costs of their educations at public universities. Why shouldn't illegal aliens?

alexjandra 4 years, 4 months ago

Please see my message above (Alexjandra). You do NOT pay for their college educations. That comes out-of-pocket or from scholarships. So, no you don't help them pay off anything college related. That's on them

Ali999 4 years, 4 months ago

You're quite, quite wrong. If you get in-state rates, you are subsidized by the taxpayers of this state and the United States. Doesn't it occur to you that there's a reason why there are in-state, out-of-state, and foreign student rates? Because taxpayers subsidize public schools.

llama726 4 years, 4 months ago

KU will allow you to declare residency by simply living in Kansas for a year.

Why did you pay out of state tuition for more than a year?

july241983 4 years, 4 months ago

I wonder how much money this bill is going to cost Kansas every year. I doubt very many of these 430 students could afford out-of-state tuition. So, I don't see this bill as saving the state money. I see this bill as taking away 430 students who are paying tuition without the assistance of federal or state financial aid. If they go to KU or K-State, that's about $8,000/year that they're paying. That's millions of dollars.

The reason Washburn is allowing students from Missouri get in-state tuition is because the more students you have, the more money the universities bring in. Letting students pay in-state tuition does not hurt the university or the state if the alternative is that the students do not attend a Kansas school. So, don't think of this bill as your pocket book versus some undocumented college kid's pocket book. This bill will take money from the state general fund and deny educational opportunities to these kids. It's lose-lose.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 4 months ago

"The reason Washburn is allowing students from Missouri get in-state tuition is because the more students you have, the more money the universities bring in."

Wouldn't that also apply to the 430 students who grew up in Kansas? After all, they aren't getting free tuition, just reduced tuition.

Sorry, your logic is illogical.

july241983 4 years, 4 months ago

I don't think most of the undocumented students can afford out-of-state tuition. So, by making them pay $20,000/yr instead of $8000/yr, they probably do not go to college at all. Thus, they do not pay anything, and the state loses that tuition money (better to have something than nothing, right?). And, I don't think the number of undocumented students who can afford to pay out-of-state tuition will make up for the far greater number who cannot. Therefore, I see this bill as costing the state money.

july241983 4 years, 4 months ago

It does apply to the 430. That's my point. This bill will cost the state money by keeping those 430 from going to college (and thus paying tuition money).

Ali999 4 years, 4 months ago

Gee, if having more students at in-state rates is so good, then why not give EVERYONE in-state rates? Fact is, you're quite, quite wrong. In-state tuition is SUBSIDIZED tuition. Subsidized by the taxpayer. The more in-state students you have, the more it costs the state, because these students are NOT paying the full cost of their educations. In fact, to raise revenues, public colleges and universities are reducing the number of in-state seats and admitting more out-of-state and foreign students who do pay the full costs associated with their educations.

Jimo 4 years, 4 months ago

"Kathy Brown, an attorney from Kansas City, Mo."

SHAME on the Journal World. Brown is NOT an attorney. Good God - if some lunatic came along proclaiming herself Emperor of the United States would the paper just print this claim without qualification? This is how newspapers lose their credibility.

The Orly Taitiz of immigration.

notanota 4 years, 4 months ago

Thank you! Precisely the point I was trying to make earlier. Her license expired years ago, and she's repeatedly misrepresented herself, which I believe is a state crime. http://www.jccc.edu/files/pdf/9-16-10-Ralston-Report-and-Board-Resolution.pdf Page 6, footnote 6.

Jimo 4 years, 4 months ago

LJW - I still don't see an apology and retraction! This isn't the editorial page where you can take a cop-out of "opinion." You have printed a false statement. Correct yourself.

notanota 4 years, 4 months ago

Surely it's only a single phone call to the state bar association to verify her status, right?

Janet Lowther 4 years, 4 months ago

You know, when I went to KU back in the '70s, I don't recall any reference to citizenship or immigration status in the rules: The requirement was residency. Period. Graduate from a Kansas high school and you were presumed to be qualified for in-state tuition.

In any case the US immigration system is immoral: When my ancestors came upwards of 200 years ago, a lot of the time the port captain didn't even bother with copying down the passenger manifest.

Where do we get the right to demand that would be Americans jump through all kinds of hoops just to get here? A quick background check which does not turn up a criminal record should be more than enough!

Indeed, I think anyone graduating with a masters or doctorate degree in the US should receive citizenship whether they want it or not!

jafs 4 years, 4 months ago

I disagree.

A reasonable immigration policy would be based on an analysis of how many immigrants we can reasonably absorb, and what kinds of people will contribute to our country in ways that we value.

Those numbers and skills would change over time, of course, and have to be revisited periodically.

Ali999 4 years, 4 months ago

jrlii, when my ancestors came here even 100 years ago, they had to jump through immigration hoops, prove they were health and self-supporting and if they weren't they went home. One of my dad's cousins stayed in the old country for 10 years while his family came here because he had an eye problem. Where do illegal aliens "get the right" to figure that they can ignore this nation's laws, make their first act here to break its laws, and then get taxpayer-funded benefits, which, by the way, were NOT available to my ancestors and most certainly weren't available to yours. Anything your ancestors and mine got, they built and earned.

As for a master's or doctorate, pull the other one. You can buy those these days easily enough. Check out TVU which is recently in the news for immigration fraud. We already have a route for the best and the brightest to come here--several of them. And our family reunification policy makes it easy for plenty of unskilled uneducated people to come as well. (Lest you think it's sour grapes, I have three master's degrees and a doctorate which I earned from major public and private universities.)

Scott Morgan 4 years, 4 months ago

You are correct jrlii, just open up the gates and turn off the lights. Anything goes, if it feels good do it.

quercus1 4 years, 4 months ago

Illegal aliens = would be Americans. That is rich. Where do we get the right to say who uses our educational facilities and what we charge them? The people of this country who have worked, fought, bled and died to make it what it is. It is amazing to me what some people are willing to give away as if it has little or no value.

All of those people who would like to see illegal aliens have instate tuition, I have a couple of solutions.

The first :

Each one of you supplement an illegal foreign student so that the amount they have to pay only equals instate tuition. Even better just pay their entire way.

or

Why don't one of you brave people start a non profit and you can collect donations to supplement illegal alien tuition. Of course donations may be a problem.

Either way, the public isn't supporting illegal aliens. There is a drawback to these plans, you maybe in violation of Federal immigration law. Aiding and abetting. But why let a little thing like that worry you. After all you don't seem to care that they are illegal to begin with.

Now I understand it goes against the grain having to use your own money and not the public's, but it is something your just going to have to get used to.

deec 4 years, 4 months ago

I agree about our ancestors. I know mom's dad came through Ellis Island, but the Irish kin who came over, did so before there was an Ellis Island.

Kontum1972 4 years, 4 months ago

hey monkeyhawk.....are u a graduate student?

Tell us where this quote comes from......

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

what have u done for America lately...any militiary service or Peace Corp, etc.

Ali999 4 years, 4 months ago

You do realize that the Lady stands at the FRONT DOOR of this country, holding up a light to those who enter LEGALLY?

quercus1 4 years, 4 months ago

Lady Liberty was a gift from the country of France to the US to celebrate our common belief in Freedom. The poem "The New Colossus" was inscribed later. It was written by communist and Zionist Emma Lazarus. The Statue was never intended to be a symbol of unending immigration. What many people never hear about is the people who were turned away at Ellis Island. Not everyone who came were allowed in. The sick and undesirable were turned away. Another little know fact about the so called great migration is that a lot of people who migrated to this country, couldn't make it here. There was no welfare, social services or food banks. They either starved or returned to their home country.

Kontum1972 4 years, 4 months ago

that quote has been here longer than most of us....

Ali999 4 years, 4 months ago

Only since the early 20th century. And it's hardly a statement of this country's immigration policy.

Scott Morgan 4 years, 4 months ago

A billion here, a billion there, pretty soon it adds up to real money.

Senator Everett Dirksen

Personally I'm becoming more and more pessimistic over the future of this nation. Some of us will live well, as I. I feel for millions and millions of Americans who expected something more for their sacrifice. They earned it.

I find you dems who wish to give the farm away over libguilt disgusting. Absolute pure d disgusting. Money not grow on tree. Oh my, do not cut Arts, do not cut this, oh don't cut poor illegal immigrants children waltzing through the Land of Oz.

On the back of..............who? They do get loans, the do receive financial aid, and whomever spread the false rumor was untrue and a liar. Thousands and thousands of illegal immigrant students receive local and federal financial aid.

libguilt has now gone beyond our borders it seems.

The next time you sigh patting backs while shedding another painless tear over illegals sucking our tax dollars, give the poor lady or older man making a decision on what to eat, or how they can fix the old Ford just to go to the grocery store a thought.

No raise in Social Security for how many years now? Think why. Yet we find money for? No problem, we have money for college.

Those fine folks are disappearing, those people who wouldn't belch a baby in L.A. knowing they did it for free on rich gringos bill. It aint the rich, nor the middle class American who suffer. It's our true poor, not to be confused with a 20 year old gal who drops a couple of kids in L.A. on our dimes.

Pessimistic. You betcha. The Greatest Generation is being........

Replaced by generations of Americans who cry out in pain when gas goes over 3 bucks. Not those who sit and shiver because heating the home costs too much. No do not think of those. No think of giving more tax money to people who actually break the law.

Believe it or not there are colleges in South America. Central America too, even Mexico. They just don't give education away to foreigners.

Bob Forer 4 years, 4 months ago

That fake attorney Kathy Brown is spooky. Watch the video. She can't even look the video camera "in the eye."

deec 4 years, 4 months ago

Be nice, or she may accuse you of violating her First Amendment rights.

Ali999 4 years, 4 months ago

Kansas will get some of the best educated janitors and fast food workers in the country, because it does NOT have the power to give illegal alien students the right to work in this country.

By the way, in case it's escaped your notice, about half of those identified in the ICE audits of Chipotle were illegal aliens, while the other half were LEGAL workers. Who says illegal aliens are doing jobs that Americans won't do? And since when won't AMERICANS go to college and do professional jobs? Why should THESE jobs go to illegal aliens? For the record, I've taught overseas in countries poorer than Mexico and my students have to jump through immigration hoops to come here and pay high student rates. In fact, the U.S. has a record 691,000 LEGAL foreign students this year who did just that. Now, what makes illegal alien students "special"?

quercus1 4 years, 4 months ago

This is how it starts folks. You get a few, perhaps well intentioned people who think they are being humanitarians or that the costs are not too great. They excuse the illegality of foreign nationals breaking our laws and instead of punishment, they reward them. Soon you have a situation where more and more illegal foreigners come to take advantage of your state's generosity. This is exactly what happened to California.

While your state's illegal alien population is small compared to other states, do you really want to add more incentives and increase the numbers? I am sure Texas, California and Arizona would love for their illegal alien populations to relocate.

If your a farmer and have a group of birds eating the seed of your freshly planted fields, do you offer even more feed to attract more birds or do you try to discourage them?

Instate tuition for people who are not even legally in this country is wrong on many levels.

First it devalues the worth of American citizenship. If any person who comes to this country regardless of legality can obtain the same privileges and rights as those who were born here or migrated legally, why should Americans then follow the law and be good citizens? Citizenship becomes worthless, if everyone has the same rights.

Second it attracts more people willing to break the law. More freebies or lower costs for illegal aliens is an attraction.

Third it is a slap in the face to any and every legal resident who wants to attend college. For every illegal foreign national that is able to go to college because it is more affordable, that illegal takes the place of a resident or out of state student. Contrary to what some believe, universities and colleges have a limited number of slots available for new students.

Fourth, When illegal aliens get offered instate tuition, there is almost always some softhearted or ethnically motivated legislator who then wants to offer these aspiring students other monetary advantages. Low cost loans and scholarships then are going to foreign nationals instead of American students.

If the people of Kansas want to experience the full impact of what illegal alien enticements do, they only need to vacation in Southern California. California once had almost the best of everything. Good jobs, great roads and one of the best education systems in the country. Do to the influx of immigrants and illegal aliens, the state now has almost 40 million people, piss poor roads and is next to the last in education. Unemployment is high and wages are low. The state is broke.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 4 months ago

The entire premise of you post is that illegal immigrants are somehow ruining this country.

Making the claim may satisfy your xenophobia, but that doesn't make it true. And it's not.

jafs 4 years, 4 months ago

You failed to respond at all to substantive points in the post.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 4 years, 4 months ago

They are a combination of opinion and assertion.

I disagree. What more is there to say?

Ali999 4 years, 4 months ago

Illegal immigrants are PART of what is ruining this country: corruption.

The very fact that they make their first act in this country to break its laws says worlds about them. That they're selfish--they put themselves and their interest ahead of not only Americans but of legal immigrants. That they're willing to lie, cheat, steal, and jump lines to get what they want. And that they lack personal responsibility, initiative, and loyalty. They assume no responsibility for their own actions (just where are the parents of these students? Are THEY accepting responsibility for the situation they put their children in?) Initiative? They have children they can't afford, then expect the rest of us to pay for them. As for loyalty, well, look at how loyal they are to their home countries, how patriotic--they cut and run rather than turning them into places where they'd like to live, and then many have the audacity to demand we learn their language, their culture, and accept them waving their flags while they demand citizenship from us.

llama726 4 years, 4 months ago

No, the kids that are the focus of this article didn't make that decision, genius.

"That they're willing to lie, cheat, steal, and jump lines to get what they want. And that they lack personal responsibility, initiative, and loyalty. They assume no responsibility for their own actions"

You just described the wealthiest elite that run most of our corporations. They're old white dudes. Where's your outrage there?

quercus1 4 years, 4 months ago

Your moniker is most apt!

So what is not true? Care to elaborate? Of course you don't have any facts to back up your assertion! Your only thought is to call me a xenophobe.

Never once in the above post did I blame every problem in this country on illegal aliens. But of course in your pc universe any mention of the problems they do cause should be swept under the rug.

I used California as an example because it is the canary in the coal mine. It has the highest number of illegal aliens, the largest population, and it has the most favorable policies including sanctuary cities for illegal aliens.

California's leading cause of population growth, some 87% is caused by immigrants and their children. That includes both legal and illegal. Population growth by uneducated people has over whelmed social service needs and increased educational costs. Bilingual teachers receive higher salaries and take money from limited school budgets. School districts in some California areas have to provide interpreters for parent/ teacher conversation. Every written communication must be printed twice. English and Spanish. Often written consent forms need an interpreter, because the parents cannot read in their home language. All of those costs contributed to California's fiscal problems.

LA County Supervisor Michael Antonovich released a few weeks ago the costs of illegal aliens to LA County. The most recent figures show 1.6 billion (2010) and that did not include the millions for educational costs. The end total is predicted to be near 2 billion.That was just one county.

The increasing population has crippled the state's ability to repair and maintain it's failing infrastructure. The freeway system is so over used that repairs/ maintenance cannot be accomplished. Major road systems never receive more then minimal repairs because there are no other alternative routes. There are just too many people. The freeway systems have overflowed their capacity. Continued

quercus1 4 years, 4 months ago

Once thriving middleclass occupations in construction, food processing and even some service sector areas have been decimated by low wage illegal aliens. Jobs that were offering 25-30$ /hr in the early 1980s by the mid 90s were cut in half. State revenue short falls were caused in part by the influx of low wage workers. When tax paying middleclass workers are displaced, not only are their wages no longer available to be taxed, but they do not have money to put into the economy. Other businesses then suffer. In many instances the displaced workers have to fall back on social services, doubling the impact.. Those low wage illegal workers never contribute as much as they take out in benefits. Most never have health insurance and if they have a citizen child will qualify for welfare. Many illegals (often paid under the table) send much of their earnings out of this country. It is not spent here.

California's population is expected to increase (at current rates) to 50 million people in 25 years. The US could reach near 400 million. For every new person added to this country it takes 12 acres of undeveloped land to be developed. Already across much of the Southwest water is an issue. Do the math! Without immigration California and this country's population would stabilize.

Only the foolish would think we can continue to take in 1.5 million people a year legally, untold numbers illegally without it adversely affecting the quality of life in this country. Every citizen in the US should be asking themselves what should the population of this country be and what kind of a future do they want to leave for their children.

llama726 4 years, 4 months ago

Is it their fault for accepting the jobs, or the bosses faults for hiring them?

Scott Morgan 4 years, 4 months ago

If the people of Kansas want to experience the full impact of what illegal alien enticements do, they only need to vacation in Southern California. California once had almost the best of everything. Good jobs, gr

Great post.

Bananajoe 4 years, 4 months ago

A mind is a terrible thing to waste......but it is worse to loose a dollar

Bob Forer 4 years, 4 months ago

What a terrible thing to have lost one's mind. Or not to have a mind at all. How true that is. --Dan Quayle

periodicreader 4 years, 4 months ago

Kathy Brown IS NOT an attorney: http://www.jccc.edu/files/pdf/9-16-10-Ralston-Report-and-Board-Resolution.pdf

In addition to Ms. Brown's fraudulent misrepresentation that she is licensed to engage in the practice of law, she is not even a Kansas resident.

What is her interest? What is her expertise?

Bob Forer 4 years, 4 months ago

She is a good Christian. She is a friend of Kobach's. Her anti-social personality disorder allows her to lie with impunity and conviction.

Kontum1972 3 years, 10 months ago

so whats next....DEATH SQUADS?

during w2 the clown with the funny mustache wanted the pure race.... did we destroy him for no reason...is this what we have become?

The new Master Race....

What side did Mr. K's father fight on?

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