Archive for Tuesday, September 28, 2010

Immigrants aren’t taking Americans’ jobs, data shows

September 28, 2010


— It’s a question rekindled by the recession: Are immigrants taking jobs away from American citizens? In the heart of the nation’s biggest farming state, the answer is a resounding no.

Government data analyzed by The Associated Press show most Americans simply don’t apply to harvest fruits and vegetables. And the few Americans who do usually don’t stay in the fields.

“It’s just not something that most Americans are going to pack up their bags and move here to do,” said farmer Steve Fortin, who pays $10.25 an hour to foreign workers to trim strawberry plants at his nursery near the Nevada border.

The AP analysis showed that, from January to June, California farmers posted ads for 1,160 farmworker positions open to U.S. citizens and legal residents. But only 233 people in those categories applied after learning of the jobs through unemployment offices in California, Texas, Nevada and Arizona.

One grower brought on 36. No one else hired any.

Sometimes, U.S. workers also will turn down the jobs because they don’t want their unemployment insurance claims to be affected, or because farm labor positions do not begin for several months, and applicants prefer to be hired immediately.

Fortin spent $3,000 this year to make sure that domestic workers have first dibs on his jobs. But he did not get any takers.


Resident10 7 years, 7 months ago

Immigrants coming here to work should be welcomed with open arms. The more the better. However, (data shows) illegal immigrants that come here to work are a very, very small percentage of the total.

Kevin Meier 7 years, 7 months ago

and your data comes from where? Fox News?

Resident10 7 years, 7 months ago

No, keswin, the data is very easy to find from various sources. I'm sure you will judge at least one of them reputable and accurate.

Kevin Meier 7 years, 7 months ago

"data" from the Urban Institute.."•Labor force participation of undocumented immigrants: Virtually all undocumented men are in the labor force. Their labor-force participation rate (96 percent) exceeds that of men who are legal immigrants or who are U.S. citizens because undocumented men are younger and less likely to be disabled, retired, or in school. "

Maddy Griffin 7 years, 7 months ago

I knew it was propaganda to keep us afraid of the "illegals".They are doing jobs nobody else wants to do.With the job situation like it is all over the country, seems like Americans would have taken those jobs back. If there wasn't any work for them, they'd stop coming here.

Jim Phillips 7 years, 7 months ago

Why should Americans apply for those jobs when they are getting money from you and me to sit on their backsides and do nothing?

beatrice 7 years, 7 months ago

Oh yes, the joys of being poor. The life of Riley, it is. Why, if we could all be so fortunate to be poor.

avoice 7 years, 7 months ago

Looks like we need to be training people in the U.S. to do the jobs that are available, instead of always filling kids' heads with the notion that no one ever has to do any work and everyone can get money for nothing. Immigrant workers come from societies where they realize that hard work is its own reward. When people in our own country would rather stay home and collect their unemployment check than get out in the fields and actually work, that is the crux of the problem, right there.

geekyhost 7 years, 7 months ago

Yes, I'm sure that's the problem entirely. Americans should be uprooting their families and driving Joad-style to Arizona to seek $10 an hour seasonal work instead of looking locally for a full-time job in an area of their expertise.

notajayhawk 7 years, 7 months ago

Right, geek. 'Cause they'd never be able to find 1000 unemployed people in NEVADA, with the nation's highest unemployment rate at 14.4%.

independant1 7 years, 7 months ago

When Okies left Oklahoma for Californiaagri jobs during the dustbowl they raised the IQ of both states.

frank mcguinness 7 years, 7 months ago

This comment was removed by the site staff for violation of the usage agreement.

puddleglum 7 years, 7 months ago

of course immigrants aren't taking away jobs.

Our jobs are being outsourced to china and india.

the immigrants aren't to blame for that. but illegal immigration....that's a different story

erck85 7 years, 7 months ago

So many people have an attitude that they're entitled to work above fast-food and laboring, but based on what? If more people were willing to "lower" themselves to these types of jobs our economy might have a foundation. In order for a capitalist economy to work we need to have a lower, middle and upper class, not everyone can be upper class that's just how it works.

beatrice 7 years, 7 months ago

In other news, studies have shown that the sky is blue, water is wet, and stubbing your toe hurts.

notajayhawk 7 years, 7 months ago

puddleglum (anonymous) says…

"Our jobs are being outsourced to china and india."

Then why are immigrants coming here, instead of to China and India where the jobs went?

"Sometimes, U.S. workers also will turn down the jobs because they don’t want their unemployment insurance claims to be affected"


When someone is collecting welfare such as TANF, they have to document active job searching, and if they turn down any job offer they lose their benefits. Maybe if we didn't extend 'jobless' benefits forever there would be more American workers taking those jobs.

puddleglum 7 years, 7 months ago

the majority of our manufacturing jobs are being outsourced...that doesn't mean there aren't jobs available here....the ones that are available are low paying. the middle class has been downsized. That still doesn't stop one from immigrating, because living here still beats living in a mud hut.

notajayhawk 7 years, 7 months ago

Like it or not, the jobs - particularly manufacturing jobs - that went overseas weren't going to be filled by Americans any more, anyway. If they weren't replaced by Malaysians, they would have been replaced by machines, or just out of a job when the companies folded because they couldn't compete with all the other companies using overseas labor.

werekoala 7 years, 7 months ago

Yes, facts often have a liberal bias...

juststrugglin 7 years, 7 months ago

The reason their benefits would be affected is farm jobs do not pay into unemployeement. So when the job is done so are you and you have no benefits.

Scott Drummond 7 years, 7 months ago

Here is the part of the article cut out by the LJW:

"Fortin spent $3,000 this year to make sure that domestic workers have first dibs on his jobs in the sparsely populated stretch of the state, advertising in newspapers and on an electronic job registry.

But he did not get any takers, even though he followed the requirements of a little-known, little-used program to bring in foreign farmworkers the legal way — by applying for guest worker visas.

The California figures represent only a small part of the national effort to recruit domestic workers under the H-2A Guest Worker Program, but they provide a snapshot of how hard it is to to get growers to use the program — and to attract Americans to farm labor, even in the San Joaquin Valley, where the average unemployment rate is 15.8 percent.

The majority of farmers rely on illegal labor to harvest their crops, but they can also use the little-known H-2A visa to hire guest workers, as long as they request the workers months in advance of the harvest season and can show that no Americans want the job.

Of the estimated 40,900 full-time farmers and ranchers in California, just 34, including Fortin, petitioned to bring in foreign farmworkers on the visas, according to government data for the first eight months of the year.

The Labor Department did not respond to a request for comment about the findings, and state officials did not immediately provide figures showing the number of domestic workers hired in July and August.

More than half of farmworkers in the United States are illegal immigrants, the Labor Department says. Proponents of tougher immigration laws — as well as the United Farm Workers of America — say farmers are used to a cheap, largely undocumented work force, and if growers raised wages and improved working conditions, the jobs would attract Americans."

I am shocked, shocked I tell you, to learn that employers who want to use immigrant labor, but who are forced to prove that Americans won't take certain jobs, are able to do so.

What, however, to make of the other tidbit contained in this censored portion of the AP article? 1/2 of the food you eat supports criminal employers. I wonder how many of those millions of jobs were available to our citizens? Would our country be better or worse off if American citizens were afforded the opportunity to compete for those jobs? Why are so many employers allowed to circumvent our laws? What policies and which politicians enable them to do so?

Flap Doodle 7 years, 7 months ago

The scamps aren’t just holding jobs illegally. “…In June 2010, undocumented immigrants represented 14.8 percent of Arizona state prisoners, but accounted for only 7 percent of the state's overall population according to the Department of Homeland Security. … For example of all the prisoners serving time in Arizona state prisons for kidnapping, 40 percent were undocumented. Of those in prison on drug charges, 24 percent were undocumented. And 13 percent of those serving time for murder were undocumented immigrants, according to the new data from the Arizona Department of Corrections… “

Blessed4x 7 years, 7 months ago

So no one wants to work as a construction worker at the housing site down the street? Really? No Americans wanted to build that house? hmmmm. Interesting.

notajayhawk 7 years, 7 months ago

Immigrants didn't take these jobs.

Yet, somehow, even with no Americans doing them, the fruit got picked. Amazing, isn't it?

Scott Drummond 7 years, 7 months ago

Please see my post above. The 233 number is from a study of employers that WANTED to import immigrants and had to prove American citizens would not take the jobs in order to do so. It is hardly a surprise that they were able to gin up some "evidence" in support of their prior wishes.

Further, as the uncensored article cites and according to our Department of Labor, one half (!!!!!!!!!) of all US farm workers are immigrants in the country illegally employed by traitorous employers.

One...half...of... all... US farm workers... are... illegal... immigrants... hired.. by....T.R.A.I.T.O.R.S...... to their fellow citizens.

Each and every one of these employers who hires an immigrant illegally takes an opportunity for employment away from an American citizen.

Scott Drummond 7 years, 7 months ago

No, Vertigo, it appears that the low number you are citing comes from a program in which the employer must prove that Americans won't take the job in order to do the importing of labor that he wants to do. Not surprisingly these employers are able to produce that result. This does not mean that this is the general experience. In any event, Notajayhawk has made the point several times over that importing immigrant labor depresses wages for the citizens of this country.

And I note your glaring failure to address the stat on 1/2 of all farm labor is illegal. Do you contend that no American citizens want those job opportunities? Does the illegal hiring of immigrant labor for these jobs not take the opportunity away from an American citizen?

jafs 7 years, 7 months ago

Well, the story states that over 200 Americans applied, but only something like 35 were actually hired - why is that?

jafs 7 years, 7 months ago

You said where's the evidence that Americans are applying but not getting hired.

The story provides an example of just that.

Scott Drummond 7 years, 7 months ago

The evidence is that half the jobs are filled by unethical employers hiring immigrants in the country illegally. With each job filled by an immigrant those employers are taking an employment opportunity away from an American citizen. They also cheat all Amercians who work by exerting massive downward pressure on wages.

imastinker 7 years, 7 months ago

But if the kid was hungry enough and not recieving candy from his rich uncle sam - the kid would eat the candy you gave him.

notajayhawk 7 years, 7 months ago

"They didn't take the jobs AWAY from americans. There's a difference between them not taking the jobs and not taking American's jobs."

And again, maybe if Americans were told you take the job picking fruit or you lose your government benefits, there might have been a few more than 233 applicants.

notajayhawk 7 years, 7 months ago

Great. So you're saying immigrants have a right to these jobs because Americans have a right to be lazy and live off their benefits instead of working. Got it.

By the same logic you're using, if the co-worker next to you calls in sick three times per week and slacks off the other two, and you have to work twice as hard, you're not doing his job, since it's not really his job. It's a job he could be doing, but hey, let's not deal with maybes.

I suppose you haven't considered one other little detail:

"“It’s just not something that most Americans are going to pack up their bags and move here to do,” said farmer Steve Fortin, who pays $10.25 an hour to foreign workers to trim strawberry plants at his nursery near the Nevada border."

Well, if the foreign workers wouldn't work for that pay, then the good Mr. Fortin wouldn't have much of a choice but to pay more, enough that more Americans would take the jobs, would he? Because the alternative - the fruit dying in the fields - is more than just a 'maybe'.

notajayhawk 7 years, 7 months ago

"Don't put words in my mouth. And quit assuming you know what I'm thinking."

Which I did no more than you did yourself. Nobody said that Americans were working these jobs and were let go to be replaced by immigrants. They are, however, working in jobs that should be filled by Americans. And that's not a maybe - I find it very difficult to believe that California and Nevada have laws so drastically different than every other state's in that people are allowed to sit back and collect benefits while refusing work. That isn't a 'maybe', it's the law. But then, why worry about the law, when the people that are doing these jobs, and the people hiring them, don't worry about it? And, apparently, neither do the ones who sit back and say "the current system allows this to be the case" without thinking that something ought to be done about that.

"At some point it would be unprofitable to pay a higher wages so, yes, it would be better to let whatever is left over die rather than go in the red by paying higher wages. If growing strawberries is going to make me lose $50K on that crop chances are you're not going to grow strawberries anymore... OR you have to pay less so that it does, once again, become profitable."

Except that if a substantial portion of the strawberry crop dies, the demand for strawberries increases with the diminished supply, the price of strawberries increases, and it becomes profitable again. It's called 'supply and demand', Jesse, a concept that's been around for a while.

notajayhawk 7 years, 7 months ago

"Please quote me where I stated that you said Americans were let go in order to hire immigrants."

So what did you mean when you said "They didn't take the jobs AWAY from americans. There's a difference between them not taking the jobs and not taking American's jobs."?

"Apparently $10.25 is the prevailing wage set by the market forces."

Um, no, it isn't. It's set by having people available (illegally) that will work for that much.

"Wages are also set by supply and demand and currently $10.25 is the going rate."

Because of the availability of a supply of illegals that will work for that much. Your claim is ludicrous; if your boss could hire someone that he didn't have to pay payroll taxes on, unemployment insurance on, workman's comp insurance on, and he could pay half your wage because the replacement employee can't take the risk of complaining, does that mean you're getting paid twice the 'going rate'?

"If people are willing to pay double or triple for a pint of strawberries at the same demand they are buying them now ..."

You DO understand how supply and demand work, don't you? As the supply tightens up (e.g. from a lot of unpicked fruit dying in the field), demand increases, it doesn't stay the same. Pretty much the same way it works with labor, if you take the illegals out of the equation.

notajayhawk 7 years, 7 months ago

Almost forgot:

"... then the prevailing wage could be increased to a rate at which Americans would be willing to relocate and do this work."

Who said anything about relocating? There aren't any unemployed people in California and NEVADA?

notajayhawk 7 years, 7 months ago

Yes, Jesse, that's 'from the article'. Did you happen to notice the little marks that look like " " around it, and who it was attributed to? A farmer who employs immigrants and uses his claim that he can't get American workers to do the job as his justification.

And again, if the immigrants were not part of the labor supply, then he would be paying more than $10.25/hour because he'd have to.

Are all the unemployed people in those states in LA? San Fran? Las Vegas? Yeah, I've noticed that phenomenon around here, why, everybody's working, they just drive to work every day and and laugh at all the unemployed people concentrated in the big cities.

BTW, Jesse? Not everyone that works (or I should say used to work) in LA, San Fran, and Las Vegas lives in those cities. You may have heard about something called 'commuting'. Are you saying that those people that commute couldn't do so in the opposite direction?

parrothead8 7 years, 7 months ago

That's the dumbest logic I've ever heard. You're saying that if nobody wants the job at $10.25 an hour, he should pay more until he gets the "right" people...people you define as American citizens.

The qualifications necessary for picking fruit are hardly selective. Why should he pay more than $10.25 an hour for that job? You say "if" a lot, as if all of your hypothetical situations were right around the corner. They aren't.

Americans demand high-paying jobs and really cheap goods. Those two things don't go together without somebody getting shafted somewhere along the way, and it ain't the rich people. Our economy is global, and it includes people all over the world, not just here in our country.

notajayhawk 7 years, 7 months ago

"The qualifications necessary for picking fruit are hardly selective. Why should he pay more than $10.25 an hour for that job? You say "if" a lot, as if all of your hypothetical situations were right around the corner. They aren't."

The cost of labor is regulated by the forces of supply and demand, just as any other commodity, parrothead. While there is obviously an element of reward for the education and training that go into some jobs, others are priced according to the difficulty of getting people to fill them.

Or perhaps you think sanitation workers get paid well because of all the years of school they had to go through learning to throw trash in the back of a truck?

And perhaps you've never heard of something called a 'union', the entire concept behind which is that a group of workers can demand higher pay for the same job they were doing yesterday, for the sole reason that the employer will not be able to hire someone else to do it for less?

Get a clue.

Janice Seymour 7 years, 7 months ago

The subject of "illegals" is much more than just about farm labor jobs - look at all the construction jobs "that Americans don't want(?)". It is much more than propaganda, racism, or fear. It is like having someone come to your home and you must feed them, clothe them and pay for their education and medical care – invited or not. They are not required to learn our language, but we must make sure we have “interpreters” to make sure we can understand them. If you speak their language, you are given a bonus in salary because you can “meet their needs”.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 7 years, 7 months ago

" It is like having someone come to your home and you must feed them, clothe them and pay for their education and medical care"

No, it's not. They are here working, and nearly every study has shown that on balance they support themselves through their income, not yours.

notajayhawk 7 years, 7 months ago

Any research dealing with human behavior has an inescapable inherent bias related to the willingness of the members of the group being studied to participate. Ya' think that just maybe someone who might be present in this country illegally, and just might not be paying their taxes, just might be a little less willing to answer the door to a stranger holding a clipboard?

fancy80 7 years, 7 months ago

and every Friday, they stand in line at the Post Office to send money back to their relatives in another country. Money, mind you that could be spent on health care, or paying for books for their kids at the elementary school. Buy hey, why pay for that stuff when you can have the "lazy Americans" pay for it for you?

Scott Drummond 7 years, 7 months ago

Illegally hired immigrants take jobs away from American citizens. Unemployment among our fellow citizens is mostly in double digits across the country. Many, if not most, are receiving public assistance benefits of some sort and state governments are buckling under the resulting financial pressure. Your taxes dollars are spent feeding, clothing and paying for the medical of the unemployed. But for the criminal activity of the cheating employers hiring these immigrants your tax burden would be reduced. You can argue that illegal immigrants support themselves, but that ignores the reality that every job taken by an illegal immigrant takes away opportunity from a fellow citizen and creates a burden on our country.

deec 7 years, 7 months ago

The guy who shot up the cold storage warehouse for the pork factory last week was probably a legal, refugee immigrant. And the fruit/veggies got picked in the early 1960's, at least in the KC bottoms, by Latinos. I remember being a little kid and driving by the fields where brown-skinned people were picking tomatoes. Back then it was called stoop labor. They also worked in the meat plants in Armourdale, alongside whites and blacks. Many of the whites were central European in origin. Nothing has changed, except the meat companies moved the plants out of the cities and into the country, where the non-white workforce is more obvious.

parrothead8 7 years, 7 months ago

That proves it. All illegal immigrants are taking jobs that good ol' Americans want.

I had an opposite experience, landscaping during the summers in high school. Our boss knew we had more work than a 2-man crew could handle, so he put an ad in the Atlanta paper. Two weeks went by, then two more. He got a few phone calls from high school kids, but nobody would work for what he was paying. He finally took a chance on a young Mexican guy he met in the parking lot at Home Depot. That guy worked his butt off with us all summer. When business slowed down, he was the first one let go. When the weather got colder, he went south to Florida to pick fruit. How do I know? Because he came back the next summer and we begged our boss to hire him back. He did, but only after putting an ad in the paper and not getting any takers for two weeks. By the end of that second summer, he was pretty much fluent in English.

notajayhawk 7 years, 7 months ago

"He got a few phone calls from high school kids, but nobody would work for what he was paying. He finally took a chance on a young Mexican guy he met in the parking lot at Home Depot."

Gee. What a wonderful example of a phenomena you described as "the dumbest logic I've ever heard" just up above. So your boss couldn't get anyone to work for what he was offering (except you), until he hired a "Mexican guy he met in the parking lot at Home Depot". I suppose the thought never entered your head that you were the one getting shafted, that if he had been paying more, he might have been able to get a couple of high school kids to work instead of some "Mexican guy he met in the parking lot at Home Depot"? But as long as he had the "Mexican guy he met in the parking lot at Home Depot" - and you - willing to work for less, why should he?

libertarianjim 7 years, 7 months ago

Thank God (if he exists) that you're notajayhawk!

notajayhawk 7 years, 7 months ago

A gratitude I share deeply, believe me.

BTW, did you have anything intelligent to say to dispute anything in my post(s)?

I'll wait.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 7 years, 7 months ago

"BTW, did you have anything intelligent to say to dispute anything in my post(s)?"

That would be a waste of anything intelligent to say.

notajayhawk 7 years, 7 months ago

Especially when you can't come up with anything, boohoozo.

Please, share your immense knowledge with us, boohoohoozo. Please tell me how the cost of labor is not tied to the supply of labor. Please explain to all of us lowly, unintelligent ones how employers wouldn't pay more if they couldn't get someone to work for less. I'm sure we'd all be fascinated, as we always are with your 'logic'.

BTW, boohoohoozo, aren't you the one always touting the unions and how the proletariat should be getting paid better anyway?

jafs 7 years, 7 months ago

That's disturbing that SRS wouldn't pursue the issue at all, even to the extent of calling immigration themselves - did they say why?

fancy80 7 years, 7 months ago

riiight. Because no American wants to roof, or be in the construction business. And no American teenager wants to work at a fast food restaurant. Not all of us are stupid. So go ahead Mainstream Media, keep reporting this. If you repeat it often enough, it becomes the truth...

deec 7 years, 7 months ago

Or maybe the construction companies don't hire Americans because other people will work cheaper. If you truly want to end the "illegal immigration" problem, increase the fines on the employers. Arrest the H.R. personnel who hire them. They are breaking the law, too. Target the employers who advertise in foreign language newspapers. Make hiring undocumented workers so onerous that it is no longer cost-effective to use them. But be prepared to pay a lot more for housing, domestic service, and food.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 7 years, 7 months ago

Employers even go so far as to advertise in Mexico for illegal immigrants to work for thme (before they are either illegal or immigrants.)

fancy80 7 years, 7 months ago

I agree with you. What is the saying, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. I mean, I get why a contractor would hire a group of illegals to roof a house. They work longer hours for less money (cash - basis) so the contractor is able to provide a cheaper product quicker. But, illegals have basically taken over the construction industry. And those are jobs that Americans will take. Add this to the housing problem and now the job that used to pay 15 bucks an hour with benefits, has been crunched down to 10 bucks an hour with no bennies. It probably is better for the unemployed to collect unemployment (to make ends meet) temporarily. Meanwhile, you've got hundreds of thousands Americans not paying taxes and hundreds of thousand of illegals not paying taxes and now the government has to raise taxes to make up for the shortfall. Sucks on so many different levels.

jimmyjms 7 years, 7 months ago

Yep, unemployment benefits are so awesome, people are just lounging around, bon bon's and liquor y'all.

fancy80 7 years, 7 months ago

I'm guessing that you are being sarcastic and I agree....most people don't want to be on unemployment, but they qualify for lower interest rates on their home mortgages (if they've been lucky enough to keep the house). Meanwhile, the rest of us, who pay our mortgages on time every month and haven't over-extended ourselves get the shaft. We also get to pay more taxes and higher real estate taxes. And when we go to sell our house, it isn't worth what we paid for it 4 years ago AND if we're lucky enough to sell it, will GET to pay a 3 percent tax that goes straight to Obamacare. I have always been a firm believer in paying my "fair share" of taxes, but the load is getting mighty heavy.

parrothead8 7 years, 7 months ago

Why is it that Americans have a problem with people from other countries coming here to work, but we happily buy every product under the sun that gets manufactured in other countries? We're the ones creating the problem: We want all of our stuff cheaper, so manufacturing jobs get moved overseas, but the Americans who lose their jobs don't want the lowest-paying jobs (because they got paid well in those manufacturing jobs), so illegal immigrants take those lowest-paying jobs, and then Americans scream and yell that illegals are taking our jobs.

We're taking our own jobs!

fancy80 7 years, 7 months ago

Number one: How does the manufacturing company get away with hiring illegals. Number two: when you're hit with taxes from all sides, you're forced to cut back on spending, so sorry if I buy a shirt from Wal-mart instead of the Gap. Number three: when your teenager, or twenty-something can't get a job (notice I used the word can't, not won't), someone has to pay the insurance for their cars. Sure, you could get rid of the car, but how can they apply for jobs, or drive to jobs if they are lucky enough to get one. Someone has to feed them and make sure they have a place to sleep. Like I said above, the load is getting heavy man. Everything costs more (fuel, food, clothes, services), but your employer knows you're gee dee lucky to have a job and by the way, since they've laid people off, you're doing the work for two or three people for the same money. And don't expect a raise anytime soon.

independant1 7 years, 7 months ago

Won't get into the chicken/egg argument.

My observations - Teenage unemployment > 27% (much higher for black teens) We aren't talking about agri jobs here, fast food jobs come to mind.

One may argue older workers are taking the traditional teen jobs but I don't think so.

On Agri jobs, picking jobs.

I observe and occasionally take part in harvest activities of neighboring family farms (not in Kansas). When the most perishable crops ripen some illegals and american families take part in the hand picking, cash jobs, paid per bag. Each worker tags the bag with their number. At end of frantic harvest each is paid cash. The farmer has other crops that are mechanically harvested, he only needs one employee to till/plant/cultivate/harvest 1,000 acres bottom land with his 500K machine. The highly perishable crop is a tradition and brings much needed cash into the family and others. The family farms though are under constant scrutiny for hiring illegals, that practice is almost dead due to the heavy fines the government threatens the small business owner with. The family business like cafe or restaurant wouldn't dare hire the illegals, the business is too visable and payroll reporting onerous. One in the bis can attest to the heavy hand of government when a SS#/name have atypo in them or some other such human error.

I like that cash pay, when I retire my goal is to make some cash. I celebrate the unofficial economy and do not want government so over reaching and controlling that every penny is counted.

The illegals question? They are to be pitied on one hand and admired, the honest hard working illegals anyway. Having said that, our government must do something about the chaos on the southern border.

independant1 7 years, 7 months ago

The chaos on the southern border is out of control.

Flap Doodle 7 years, 7 months ago

Because of an amazing degree of corruption in their government?

cowboy 7 years, 7 months ago

And in yesterday's news the republicans refused to vote on a bill to tax credit companies that bring off shored manufacturing jobs back to the US.

Clara Westphal 7 years, 7 months ago

All the immigrants coming in are not Hispanic.

I see the paperwork every day. Many are coming in from eastern Europe and the Middle East. These people are not taking the low payrate jobs. They are filling the high tech jobs because they will work for less. They don't necessarily do a better job. I see that every day, too.

fancy80 7 years, 7 months ago

That is a good point, but I would suggest to you, most coming from Eastern Europe and the Middle East have work visas. It's not anything personal against Hispanics, it's about people that are here illegally, demanding their "American" rights. Where I work we have in the past year hired probably 20 individuals that are Indian or Pakistani. I don't know their status. For all I know, they were born in Cleveland, or Tuscaloosa....but I have noticed a trend, but then I work in Information Services. As long as they come here legally, and pay into the system, I don't care where they are from. It is the illegals that I am concerned about.

Clara Westphal 7 years, 7 months ago

You make a good point. However, I do see forms where the applicant actually states that they are illegal.

My point was that it is not only the fruit pickers who are taking jobs as well as government benefits. Some of the high tech people walk into our country and as soon as their feet hit the soil, they get social security, subsidized housing, food stamps, cash and medicaid. That is more than the average American worker gets.

just_another_bozo_on_this_bus 7 years, 7 months ago

"as their feet hit the soil, they get social security, subsidized housing, food stamps, cash and medicaid. "

Most if not all of these things require proof of citizenship or legal residency, so I call BS.

Clara Westphal 7 years, 7 months ago

No, it is not bs. I process the forms every day and it is there. Apparently, they know someone who knows how to work the system.

One man had been in the country 7 months and he already had $2500 in benefits. He was applying for a student grant.

yourworstnightmare 7 years, 7 months ago

There are plenty of jobs in America. Just hang out at home depot and get ready to do some difficult farm work for a low wage.

Gene Wallace 7 years, 7 months ago

Attend the Grand Reopening of the McDonald's on 23rd tomorrow. Look and listen. Who is taking your order, cooking the food, and cleaning the store? What language are they speaking? How many of them are retirees, high school students or college students? Did you know, that to legally enter the US for work, you must have a working command of English?

Gene Wallace 7 years, 7 months ago

In 1966, at 16, I started my first job at a brand new McDonald's in Bell, CA (LA Metropolis). Except for management, we all attended Bell HS, East Los Angeles CC or Cal State LA. I was paid $1.10 per hour. We all spoke only English. Stopped in at the same McDonald's just before moving to Kansas four years ago. All the workers were Hispanic and the Menu was in Spanish with English "subtitles". All the workers and managers were speaking to each other in Spanish. (Our re-opening Mickey D's on 23rd, will sound the same tomorrow morning.)

independant1 7 years, 7 months ago

no small wonder teen unemployment is so high.

independant1 7 years, 7 months ago

My first job @ minimum wage was drug store Soda Jerk, best job in the universe!

independant1 7 years, 7 months ago

$1.10/hour and all the hot roast beef sand/sundaes/french fries/cherry cokes one can eat plus access to the paperback novels/magazines during slow hours at closing.

independant1 7 years, 7 months ago

I always say - once a jerk always a jerk one must find their niche in this ol' world

independant1 7 years, 7 months ago

still getting paid to be a jerk, just jerking non-food bit/byte stuffs. the 1st job as soda jerk was the best

independant1 7 years, 7 months ago

Back east, NJ, one finds gas station jobs taken by eastern europeons. (Poles, Slavs, Liths, Ukrain....) They get here on tourist visa then overstay and work for cash wages. Not sure how the owner get away with that. In NJ one cannot pump ones own gasoline, the operator must be certified by the state. Do know the owner takes the employee passport, an old custom in europe I suppose, while they are employed. Probably to dissuade one from walking off with the cash bank.

jafs 7 years, 7 months ago

I imagine that's illegal, for an employer to take an employee's passport.

independant1 7 years, 7 months ago

The expired tourists/workers saved their cash wages, buy gold jewelry furs, high end stuff. (knew one who sewed cash in coat liner) and leave country/go home. Spread the wealth - prop up parents and/or wife ands kids. Then they would get another foreign passport under different name and repeat. Had one friend/aquaintance who did that twice. The 3rd time they hooked up with a church (JW), got sponsored and now are legit. Last I heard was working as unix sys admin for small corp in NJ. East Europeons work our system better/different than those crossing the southern border. They are more sophisticated, one could argue they are culturally adept at working the system. Could be skills leftover from socialism. (have a niece here, illegal in NY but that is a long story, arrived legal but long since ... doing quite well. all my Korean relatives are legal)

independant1 7 years, 7 months ago

shoulda said all my asain and mexican relatives are here on the up and up. me? legal Okie KU alum but tusch would tend to disagree

Flap Doodle 7 years, 7 months ago

Meanwhile, back at the ranch: “A coalition of Mexican mayors has asked the United States to stop deporting illegal immigrants who have been convicted of serious crimes in the U.S. to Mexican border cities, saying the deportations are contributing to Mexican border violence. The request was made at a recent San Diego conference in which the mayors of four Mexican border cities and one U.S. mayor, San Diego Mayor Jerry Sanders, gathered to discuss cross-border issues…”

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